Daydreaming here...

[bluerider]

How does one become a pro road cyclist? I have a pipe and am dreaming today...

All kidding aside, does anyone know how cyclists get selected for pro teams?

Thanks!

[han-grrl]

i race mtb (not elite), but as a guess

you would have to race
you would have to do well at races
submit a race resume to the Team Manager.
you may have to give them a reason on why you think you would be a good team member and how you would promote the sponsors.

[swlsue]

be a man? :p

Seriously, you don't hear much about women's cycling. A shame.

[RoadRaven]

What Han said...
without a sponser, you have top prove yourself from the beginning
Join a club and try and get into the top grade, though being a woman, the second top grade is prolly where you'll be
Do well in Club Champs
Enter as many competitions as you can (my next step from Club Champs will be Nationals)
Do well in everything you enter, be noticed and get some winning history behind you
As you go, decide what event you like... a woman will never make to something like THE Tour - we just cant build the muscle... (here here Sue) but indoor track events? Individual TTs? Criterions?
Our own Sarah Ulmer brought home golds and a new track record - that was pretty sweet.

Set your goals and train for them and be prepared to endure a lot of pain - thats how the best become the best... they are prepared to hurt... alot

[bluerider]

Great insights, thanks! Sounds tough but fun!!!

Just wondering, what kind of speeds do pro women usually cycle at? Let's say in TTs? I know the boys at TdF are in the higher 50km/hr range :eek: Any idea on women's time?

[Lynne]

Great insights, thanks! Sounds tough but fun!!!

Just wondering, what kind of speeds do pro women usually cycle at? Let's say in TTs? I know the boys at TdF are in the higher 50km/hr range :eek: Any idea on women's time?


Met too! Me too! But that was the team TT, not sure what speeds they hit on the individual, I can't remember (and I'm NOT checking the website since I'd see today's results!).

Are time trials typically flat? And, are they usually as interesting a course as TdF or do you just go round and round in boring circles?

[CorsairMac]

As you go, decide what event you like... a woman will never make to something like THE Tour -

actually there are European Women Pro Races - I can't remember them all right now but there is a Womens version of the Giro and I believe there is a womens version of the Tour. The womens T-Mobile team races in them.

[Tess851]

yep, tour de femme etc as Corsairmac said.

Track time trial: 500m in 33.952 seconds won the gold medal for Meares last year at the Olympic games.

Road time trial: 24km in 0:31:11:53 was the wining time in the 2004 Olympics.

so average speed for road would be say 47-48km/hr, and track would be arond 54-55km/hr.

As for getting there, what han-grrl and RoadRaven said, and even then, there are no guarantees.

Are you on track to become a pro do you think?

[Lynne]

yep, tour de femme etc as Corsairmac said.

Track time trial: 500m in 33.952 seconds won the gold medal for Meares last year at the Olympic games.

Road time trial: 24km in 0:31:11:53 was the wining time in the 2004 Olympics.

so average speed for road would be say 47-48km/hr, and track would be arond 54-55km/hr.

As for getting there, what han-grrl and RoadRaven said, and even then, there are no guarantees.

Are you on track to become a pro do you think?

Hey Tess, do you know about amatuer racing? What's the speed like there?

[snapdragen]

Hey Tess, do you know about amatuer racing? What's the speed like there?

Watching Phil and Paul - they just said average speeds of 56km - this is for a regular stage, not the TTT. :eek:

[bluerider]

yep, tour de femme etc as Corsairmac said.

Track time trial: 500m in 33.952 seconds won the gold medal for Meares last year at the Olympic games.

Road time trial: 24km in 0:31:11:53 was the wining time in the 2004 Olympics.

so average speed for road would be say 47-48km/hr, and track would be arond 54-55km/hr.

As for getting there, what han-grrl and RoadRaven said, and even then, there are no guarantees.

Are you on track to become a pro do you think?

:eek: I think I'm on track if I was riding on something with 4 wheels. Egads, time to get serious about getting faster. Thanks for the insights. Will definitely check out some local races to be seriously humbled :o

[RoadRaven]

actually there are European Women Pro Races - I can't remember them all right now but there is a Womens version of the Giro and I believe there is a womens version of the Tour. The womens T-Mobile team races in them.


Yes... I know... but they are women's races... and I meant that for a woman to aspire to ride in something like the Tour de France with people like Armstrong, Ulrich or DaveZ is an unrealistic goal... you have to recognise the limitations of a female body to build effective muscle and enter races accordingly.

The top echelon of female cyclists are fantastic, and pound for pound may even be better atheletes than men - but they are not in the ball park of their elite male counterparts.

Just look at the results in Olympics, or compare Mens/Womens Giro or Mens Womens Tour... men and women will never compete together

I should have included some of the womens races in my little say. Apologies for being unclear

I was just trying to explain to Blue that any pro race goals she sets herself need to be gender realistic

[bounceswoosh]

I was just trying to explain to Blue that any pro race goals she sets herself need to be gender realistic
This is something that I've thought about a lot. And I'm not convinced it's right.

Are there differences between male and female bodies? Yes, absolutely. But is it helpful to say, "Well, I'll never reach these speeds, so I'm not even going to set that goal"? I'm not convinced it is.

Typically, when an athlete breaks a previous record, over the next several years several other people break that previous record, too. I think it's a matter of psychology -- suddenly people realize it's possible, and so it happens.

I don't know that the gender gap will ever go away, but it seems like it could narrow. More and more girls are growing up playing sports.

When I was in high school, my martial arts classes were predominantly teenage boys. I'm sure that I tried harder than I would have if my only competition were female.

So ... I guess what I'm saying is, why not dream about competing in the Tour? You might not get there, but you might get farther than if you didn't try for it.

[runnergirl]

This issue really get me going!!!

Cycling is the last sexist main-stream sport. There's no reason that women can't cover the same distances as men, they will always be a few miles an hour slower, but they can cover the distances. I think that the tour should include a women's pelaton either a day ahead or a day behind on the same course. I was so enraged when I found out how short the tour de a'lude was I can't tell you!

Not to get too far off-topic, but the coverage of women's cycling is really abhorent as well. This month's Rodie magazine profiled a woman who has been dropped from t-mobile, and spent more time discussing her modeling career than her riding. Not to mention the playboy type pictures-absolutly disgusting. And I wonder why there are so many dirty old men at most club rides. :mad:

[bluerider]

Rant away my friends! I am upset at the non-existent coverage of women's road cycling on TV and non-existent features in roadie mags. Although I would love love love to see women's road races featured the way TdF is, I am also a realist and know that in my lifetime, women's cycling will be overshadowed by the men. I agree that women's physiology may not naturally lend to speeds that the men have but I won't agree that it's not possible. I'm a wannabe racer and would be deluded to think that I could compete in a high profile race like TdF or Giro or the Vuelta. Would I like to? You betcha! :D My beef isn't that women can't compete with the men, it's that events for women are viewed as lesser and essentially no coverage exists.

But I think by participating in local races and at best at the national level can gradually elevate interest and garner more respect for women's cycling.

[fixedgeargirl]

Perhaps in our day we will start to see more coverage of women's road racing. Just look at the WNBA. Did you ever think you'd see such a thing when you were a kid? It's also brought a lot of exposure to women's college ball.

What is coverage of women's events like in Europe, where cycling has been a *sport* since a very long time ago? Cycling has only been a *sport*, meaning recognized as such by the Joe-on-the-street, here in the US since Lance started winning TdF.

You'd think advertisers would gladly sponsor an hour or two of hot betties in lycra suits flexing their well-toned rears ;) .

[RoadRaven]

Phew...
lots of stuff here

Absolutely no reason why women's races shouldn't be the same length as mens
Elite female cyclists do the same miles and go through the same pain as elite male cyclists
No doubt
I am not saying that elite women cyclists are inferior - they are performing at the top of their ability and beyond what most of us (including many men) can hope to achieve

BUT... physiology is the limiting factor

If women could achieve the power and speed on bikes that men could then there would be some female domestiques, or lieutenants or quarterbacks (terms I quite like described on the Science of Lance) on something like the current Tour we are watching
These teams want the best - the fastest, strongest riders. I doubt very much they would say no to an elite cyclist who could fit into the team speeds just because she was a woman.
But there are no female riders

The fact is that women - despite being able to achieve incredible athleticism and power outputs and times and cover amazing distances... will never, unless/until human physiology changes, make it with the equivalent elite male cyclists.
Our body shape is different
Our fat/muscle ratio is different

You see the same thing in other disciplines too (For example... Women body builders do not build the muscle mass of males and Male runners hold the fastest overall times)

I as much, if not more, than anyone here would love to see elite male and female riders in the same races both at the front when the finish line is reached, but it just is not realistic

[RoadRaven]

Perhaps in our day we will start to see more coverage of women's road racing. Just look at the WNBA. Did you ever think you'd see such a thing when you were a kid? It's also brought a lot of exposure to women's college ball.

What is coverage of women's events like in Europe, where cycling has been a *sport* since a very long time ago? Cycling has only been a *sport*, meaning recognized as such by the Joe-on-the-street, here in the US since Lance started winning TdF.

You'd think advertisers would gladly sponsor an hour or two of hot betties in lycra suits flexing their well-toned rears ;) .

I agree - there are alot of women out there who would watch, and the mens audience would grow too
I guess it has to be sold to advertisers as a glamour event (like the Tour has been) and then the money will fall into place for coverage
Communities have to keep badgering networks and letting them know we wnat coverage - if they don't hear us, they won't respond

[bounceswoosh]

I am not saying that elite women cyclists are inferior - they are performing at the top of their ability and beyond what most of us (including many men) can hope to achieve

BUT... physiology is the limiting factor

SNIP

I as much, if not more, than anyone here would love to see elite male and female riders in the same races both at the front when the finish line is reached, but it just is not realistic


If you're responding to me ... look, the physiology thing may be true, but what's the point in thinking about it? I still believe that it's better to aim high. If a woman trains with the goal of making it to the men's Tour, I am certain she will perform better than a woman who trains with a "more achievable" goal. So what if she doesn't actually make it into the Tour?

And who knows, if women keep training like that, maybe one day there will be some women in the Tour. We've seen a few women in men's competitions recently, from golf to formula 1.

I'd love to see elite male and female riders duking it out for the finish, too. But I think a good first step would be to get some females in the race, regardless of how they place. And if that's ever going to happen, it will be because some elite women say, "I can do that," and not because they say "I can't."

[spazzdog]

OK... my turn to jump into the fire.

The main reason we don't "see" much in the way of womens pro tours is that there's no money in it. The organizors barely pull in enough sponsors to put on the tour... prime example Tour de Femme (women's version of TdF). It has NOT happened more than it has happened.

Yes, there is a huge field of women pro's, some lucky enough to have a steady gig on some well sponsored teams, but the existance of teams does not a Tour make.

As in other women's pro sports, the money just isn't there or rather isn't made available. Ask 'chelle. She's pro (mtb), she has a sponsor, and I'll bet getting there wasn't necessarily an easy trip... it ain't easy out there folks. Physiology, endurance, training with high goals; all valid and anyone who has a dream of racing should go for it. But if you want to race you need to know what options are out there and plan/train accordingly.

spazzdog

[RoadRaven]

If you're responding to me ... look, the physiology thing may be true, but what's the point in thinking about it? I still believe that it's better to aim high. If a woman trains with the goal of making it to the men's Tour, I am certain she will perform better than a woman who trains with a "more achievable" goal. So what if she doesn't actually make it into the Tour?

And who knows, if women keep training like that, maybe one day there will be some women in the Tour. We've seen a few women in men's competitions recently, from golf to formula 1.



:D Me again

Ok... I absolutely agree we should set goals and aim high and think f-them all, I can do this
But the point of thinking about it is that in the back of your head you should to be aware that male and female physiology is different...

I will continue to disagree when I see a comment saying maybe we'll see a woman in a "mans" tour because I have yet to be shown evidence that women can perform at that level - if anyone has examples, please share, because I would love for it to happen

Bounce - you use golf and formula 1 as examples
With all due respect, neither of these sports fall into the category of being limited by muscles - golf relies hugely on physics and maths - formula 1 is about reaction times...

Women can race with men at club levels - and thrash the pants off most of them.
But to get into elite races you have to manage qualifying times... and that tends to favour one gender.

I teach gender issues, I am a post-structuralist feminist, I desperately want us to be equal not equivalent, but biological facts are facts - unless we either tamper with them or until we evolve

[RoadRaven]

OK... my turn to jump into the fire.

The main reason we don't "see" much in the way of womens pro tours is that there's no money in it. The organizors barely pull in enough sponsors to put on the tour... prime example Tour de Femme (women's version of TdF). It has NOT happened more than it has happened.



Jump away... :p

I agree Spazz, we need to find a way to make it desirable for sponsers and advertisers to want to sponser womens cycling, or place their ads into coverage...
And I suggest being squeaky wheels
Like I said in earlier posts, bug your loacl networks who provide sports coverage until they realise there is money to be made

Filthy lucre is a great motivator!

[bounceswoosh]

Bounce - you use golf and formula 1 as examples
With all due respect, neither of these sports fall into the category of being limited by muscles - golf relies hugely on physics and maths - formula 1 is about reaction times...

Well, they're the examples with which I'm familiar. But iirc these both happened in the last year, maybe two?



I teach gender issues, I am a post-structuralist feminist, I desperately want us to be equal not equivalent, but biological facts are facts - unless we either tamper with them or until we evolve

Maybe so, but I think the jury's still out, and may never be in, on how much physical gender differences are based on early socialization. I realized recently that my mom and I have totally different views on how supportive she was of me growing up. I know she meant to be, but in some ways, it just didn't turn out that way. Anyway, we still have moms and dads who, even if they support their daughters being active in sports, assume that the daughters won't perform as well. As you teach gender issues, I'm sure you know all about expectations and resulting performance.

We simply don't know how much is nature and how much is nurture.

Yes, as I've gotten older, I've begun to say the same thing -- that it's harder for me than it is for the guys I've met. But I can't just accept that. And in cycling, as with many sports, I have to wonder if the issue of fit and availability plays in. So many women have trouble finding a good fit on a bike, or finding high-performance equipment that fits them. In a three-week race, I wonder how much a poor fit would cost you?

And don't discount the boys' club aspect. If you yourself insist that a woman can't compete in the Tour (or whatever sport), how much harder would it be for a man to overcome his reservations and put a woman on the team?

Maybe the most elite male athletes are going to do better than the most elite female athletes. Maybe. But even if that's a given, I don't fit in that category, and neither do most of the people in the world. If someone is the type of person who likes to push herself hard (and I definitely do), setting "unrealistic" goals can be a huge motivator. I'm not looking to join the Tour (I don't even have a road bike!), but I don't see why it would hurt to have that as an eventual goal. Of course, depending on one's current ability level, it might not be a bad idea to set some intermediate goals, too.

[RoadRaven]

NURTURE:

You can do it...

I believe in you...

Absolutely, lets make family time at the weekends cause we want to help you with your interest...

Girls can do anything (a slogan that was BIG in NZ in the 80's - my formative years)...



NATURE:

Men can maintain a high level of fitness at approx 2% body fat... women can't

Men have a naturally higher blood volume which enables them to carry more oxygen to their muscles more quickly... women don't

[Tess851]

First up, I'm with Spazzdog re the sponsorship / coverage thing. Bear in mind the TdF was being run at a time when a woman on a bicycle or even in a 'sweaty' sport was just not on, so we've got some catching up to do in terms of female presence in the cycling world. Here in Oz, we're getting more tv coverage on women's races - albeit at world champion level and the like, than what we used to. It's slow going, but it is happening.

I don't agree that using bodyimage to sell a sport is necessarily a bad thing - who knows, maybe if we s@x it up a bit it will attract more spectators / sponsors?

As for aspiring to ride the best you can, yeah, fine, but part of goal setting is making sure it's realistic. There's a difference between aspiring to just participate in a race like TdF and aspiring for contention in the GC in the TdF. Also, it can take years of hard riding to be good enough to even be seen at the top. How many years did it take Robbie McEwan before he was at the forefront of sprinting - 7 or 8, I think. So it's a long road to the top....,

[Tess851]

Lynne - yes, I've some experience in 'amateur' racing. What level are you talking about? I've been in local, state and national road races here in Oz, and state track races, though not representing any teams, state or national. I'm not good enough yet, though I managed to get about $600 sponsorship from one business last year. Not much, but every bit helps. :)

Pace differs for the different levels of racing, and whether the fields are women only, women and junior females combined, or combined men and women, and whether they are criteriums, short or long road races, scratch start or handicap start etc. As a general rule, racing at higher grades / categories eg A= best, b= next best etc, against men and in open events (state or national) are faster paced than local races. Are you talking in general, or about a specific style of race etc?


RoadRaven, what do you mean 'equal not equivalent'?

[AutumnBreez]

Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think? Besides the dirty ol' men could sit with beers and their remote controls and watch the girls ride if they did not come in person.
Why is it that men can get upset at Women's only clubs and wittle their way into them using the excuse that they are being excluded due to the sex of the club?

Perhaps a Women's Cycling magazine is what we need? Anyone interested in beginning one? One that also focuses on off season/on season exercises, tips, diagrams of proper form, etc., Nutritional info, with a chosen recipe for the month. I don't know how to get one started. I just have lots of ideas on the lay out. Advertisements do help fund, but would not want half mag. to be advertisement, but a focus on Women's Cycling would be nice.
Ya, probably dreaming, but many things we have today are from dreams that seemed less then likely to become what they are today. Flight for example, from Wright Bros. to NASA in such a short time. Women's Voting rights. Don't stop dreaming ladies, we will see Women's Pro Cycling if we have determination and persistance, dedication and vision to see it.

[RoadRaven]

RoadRaven, what do you mean 'equal not equivalent'?

Hey there Tess
By "equal" I mean being able to compete on equal footing with men in an event like le Tour de France

By "equivalent" I am referring to the fact that for the same time spent training, same dedication, same pain, women can acieve on an similar footing but in women's races.

If we were "equal" in cycling, then genders would be mixed all the way to the top.

But we are "equivalent" in cycling, so women will not race in the mens Tour or Giro, they will race in the women's Tour or Giro.

Does that help?

[RoadRaven]

Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think?

There are pro-race events for women... we just don't hear much about them cause they're not worth much to sponsers/advertisers



Perhaps a Women's Cycling magazine is what we need?


This would be great... I don't know about around the world, but the road race mags we get here are Australian, European and American and all male focused.
The mountain bike mags seem to have more women in them.
Any female fitness mags here seem to fill up with useless tips and irrelevant recipes and not focused training plans etc, let alone single disciplines for women.
There is a good multi-sport mag here that represents both genders well.

[spazzdog]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AutumnBreez
Why isn't there a completely different race for Women? It would get enough women to compete, don't you think?

Refering to my previous post, there are "completely different races for women".

The Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale (grrls TdF) a 6 stage tour, which supposedly ran June 28-July 2 this year. The website (if you can read French) is:
http://www.velo-feminin.com/

Notice it occured the week before the TdF... anybody hear anything about it?
Didn't think so.

For the full UCI calendar for Elite Women go to: http://www.uci.ch/imgArchive/Calendar/CAL-ROA-2005-FEMMES.pdf

As for a magazine... that would be great, but again it takes money. WomenSport mag started out great and ended up looking like a mini-Cosmo. Perhaps all of us that subscribe/purchase VeloNews, ProCycling, CyclingNews, etc should hit them all with an email/letter campaign demanding "equal" coverage.

I don't mean to be so harsh, but as an original Title 9 baby I've seen it over and over again since the early '70's.

spazzdog

[RoadRaven]

Thanks for the PDF link, Spazz

Gonna print it out and start badgering local and national newspapers, as well as hassling SKY TV and local TV stations !!!

We do have packaged highlights of some of these - but an insignificant amount compared to the mens... we do get some great packages of the loacl "fun" rides too - like K2, and Round Taupo

[spazzdog]

bounce, golf and formula 1 are great examples of women playing with the men, yes... and good for them. I think it's great. But as Raven says neither sport absolutely depends on strenge and endurance. Cycling does.

But lets look at women's pro sports:

Tennis, the women had to start their own association to start making progress and it still took years for the somewhat "equal" tournament time and prize money to come around.

Soccer - the women's pro league came and has already gone in the states.

Basketball - the WNBA has made it because they play a different season than the men, thus not taking away from the cash flow.

Football - still at a "semi-pro" level. These girls still have to work for a living and get very little publicity.

Need I go on...

Cycling is an exiting sport. Women CAN do very well in the amateur ranks, some can even go pro and enjoy success, but you will never see women racing against men in the TdF. Personally I don't want to. I don't feel it's necessary to compete against men. Instead, fuel the fire for women's events to become AS respected, AS exciting, AS profitable.

If there's a women's race in your area make sure you go. Find the organizers... tell them how much you want to see more. If you want to race, get going. Learn, race, race some more...WIN.

Push local clubs to include women's cat3/4 separate races when they hold events. Go to them. Watch them. Race in them. It's only through racing at the lower levels that women can move up the category ladder to reach pro status.

Write letters to the editors of the racing magazine demanding more coverage of the women's scene.

OK - I'm done. spazz

[han-grrl]

I had to post my personal experience here...

a couple of years back the World Road Champs were held in Hamilton, Ontario. My hubby and i went and watched the womens road race. An amazing event. The women pedalling, it was like watching a ballet, so smooth, and perfect. There were helicopters and cameras, and we thought it was quite the event..

The next day was the mens...WOAH! totally different event it seemed. MORE helicopters, support vehicle after support vehicle, cameras, journalists...i couldn't belive how much coverage for the mens event there was...

I guess a fact of life unfortunately right now, is that mens sports still gets more money and more visibility.

If you want a good read on women in sports, i recommend the book Black Tights. (T. Robinson). Its a real eye opener.

[spazzdog]

han-girl, what's the author's full name? I find no book called "Black Tights" on amazon. Can you check and post all the info? Thanks!

spazzdog

[bluerider]

Hey han, I agree with you on the coverage. Was at World's watching the women's and men's event as well. The size of the crowds and fervour at the women's races was not comparable to that of the men's.

That's a great book you recommened. I have it myself. Spazz, the full title is Black Tights: Women, Sport and Sexuality. It's by Laura Robinson.

[spazzdog]

Thanks blue & han. I'll look for it.

spazz

[AutumnBreez]

I was referring to the Tour de France when I was saying this. Why there is not a Tour de France Womens Race. But again, sponsorship. But the tips and references were appreciated...Thank you!

And again.....keep those dreams alive girls!

[latelatebloomer]

Originally Posted by AutumnBreez
Perhaps a Women's Cycling magazine is what we need?

I would give my eyeteeth for that right now, especially as I am parked on my butt recovering from a sinus infection (amazon turns to dishrag :( )

Maybe I could write the cycling equivalent of the John "The Penguin" Bingham's pieces for runners, perhaps under my retired Indian name of "Snail Woman." I was given a new one after dropping 50lbs.

Regarding sports coverage, I gave up my TV about 10 years ago, so I am removed from this issue, but am very aware that we cast votes with the money we spend, and some of us spend a lot. When we buy anything cycle-related, fire a message to the company that says, "love the * I just bought, support women's cycling! (tell 'em how, too.)"

[DeniseGoldberg]

I was referring to the Tour de France when I was saying this. Why there is not a Tour de France Womens Race.

Many years ago there was a Women's Tour de France. I can't remember when (and why) it was cancelled, but I just did some Google searches, and it looks like there is again a multi-stage women's tour in France called Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale. Based on the sites that I could find - if I'm reading them right, that is - it is a one-week race that finished on July 3rd. Better than nothing...

Here's the link to the web site in French: http://velo-feminin.com/. And here's the link to the web site as translated by Google into English (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://velo-feminin.com/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DLa%2BGrande%2BBoucle%2BF%25C3%25A9minine%2BInternationale%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DGGLD,GGLD:2003-34,GGLD:en). I have no way of knowing if the translated page will be updated, so it's probably best to get to that page the way I did - search on Google for "La Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale", then click on translate this page instead of clicking directly on the web site.

--- Denise