My Motorist Exchange...

[Mr. Bloom]

Enjoying the beautiful weather, I went for a fairly easy ride tonight.

Approaching a light on the IU campus, I signaled left to take the lane...

A woman in a Grey Camry (Indiana ED3681) refused to yield and nearly clipped my left hand.

BUT, the light was red:cool:

So, seeing her windows down, I rolled up alongside and polite (while huffing and puffing) said:

Mr.Silver: Ma'am, I had the right of way there. You cut me off when I signaled and had the right of way. HUFF HUFF PUFF PUFF
Driver: No, cars have the right of way.
Mr.Silver: No, you failed to yield when I properly signalled HUFF HUFF PUFF PUFF
Driver: Oh, you had the right of way, then go ahead, take the right of way. - gesturing for me to get in front of her:eek:
Mr.Silver: No ma'am, you're dangerous. I'm not getting in front of you now. But, be aware, be careful, and give the cyclists room...and DON'T EVER HIT ONE! Huff Huff Puff Puff
Driver: You're obnoxious
Mr. Silver: Ma'am, I'd rather be obnoxious than dangerous like you!

:cool::cool:Guess what: the next light is red too!

Mr. Silver: Have a good drive Miss Indiana ED-3681:p:p

[TrekTheKaty]

Good job, Mr. Silver! I didn't have as much time, but waiting to cross a crosswalk in a high tourist area with a lot of walkers and cyclists on a Saturday morning (light traffic) and woman blew through the crosswalk. As she went by I noticed her windows were cracked and she was talking on the phone--never glanced over (there were two cyclist on the other side of the road waiting to turn left--I wanted to go straight across). So I yelled, "CROSSWALK!" I have a thing about crosswalks--I travel a lot and find most cities don't even have walk lights at intersections. Other towns, motorists stop and wave you across. I don't think she heard me but it got big smiles from the other cyclists.

[Running Mommy]

wow mr silver that is something I would have done!!;)
Good job! She's still going to think SHE was right, but at least you have the satisfaction.
Some people...

[bacarver]

. . . because I would be laughing too hard to stay on the bike! How do we "unglue" the brains that are stuck on the view that bicycles/bicyclists are bad/wrong/inconvenient? You sure think fast on your wheels!

-- Barb

Stay safe.

[kfergos]

I'm so glad you got to have that exchange even if she called you obnoxious at the end. There have been so many times I wanted to talk to a driver and say "Did you know that here in MA it's illegal to turn right in front of me like that?" or "Could you please explain why you had to get ahead of me before stopping at a red light?" I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of drivers (and bicyclists, for that matter!) don't have any idea what bicyclists are and aren't allowed to do.

[indigoiis]

Women generally don't like being called M'am. :)

[Biciclista]

I don't mind being called Ma'am, I've been called worse. Mr Silver
what a lucky encounter. The light usually turns green just before I catch up.....

[TxDoc]

Thank you Mr.Silver for the biggest laugh of the morning!
:D

[Crankin]

Congratulations for saying what most of us want to say. I've done it once or twice and was sworn at and ignored.
And please, don't ever call me M'am.... I know it's a southern thing, but it conjures up images of a little white haired old lady. Even when I am a little white haired old lady, I am pretty sure I don't want to be called M'am.

[Norse]

Good for you! Gosh Mr. Silver, you're so obnoxious for pointing out to madam that she was breaking the law and driving recklessly! ;)

[MomOnBike]

Than you, Mr Silver, for at least trying to educate the car-bound.

And the reason most of us don't like to be called Ma'am is that we are sure we are still Gidget. I know I'm not old enough to be Ma'am-ed. Really. (Ignore that calendar over there.)

[Tuckervill]

Ma'am is a Southern gentility that will never go out of style. It's a whole heckuva lot more respectful than some of the OTHER words I hear women called. I'll take it.

Karen

[SouthernBelle]

Ma'am is a Southern gentility that will never go out of style. It's a whole heckuva lot more respectful than some of the OTHER words I hear women called. I'll take it.

Karen

Agreed. I fully expect to be ma'amed

[Eden]

Agreed. I fully expect to be ma'amed

It's a definitely a southern/northern difference. I grew up in the north east (Pittsburgh specifically) and I still do cringe at being ma'amed.... only *old* ladies are ma'am....

When I was in college during the summer we had a bunch of military guys in for special photography classes. I worked in facilities checking out equipment and darkrooms. It was too weird having all these guys who were likely at least my age and probably a few years older ma'aming me all of the time. I never tried to stop them - I knew it was what was expected of them - technically I was the authority there, but it was still weird and made me feel like an old lady at the age of 19....

[Loraura]

I've never had a conversation with a motorist in the wrong that went well, so I just don't do it.

If I can get a plate number, I'll report it (and my report will likely do nothing), but I'm just not in the business of dealing with strangers like that. It just raises my heart rate and ruins my ride.

I hate idiot drivers. But I hate even more being all worked up over actually trying to talk to one.

[TrekTheKaty]

I prefer Ma'am to Mrs. I always look around for somebody's mom when I'm called Mrs. And what does my marital status have to do with anything? Just call me ma'am.

I work in a customer service industry that still uses sir and ma'am--but it does make some people chuckle.

[Flybye]

SWEET!!

[Mr. Bloom]

Mr. Silver doesn't think fast on his wheels...but he has had plenty of time to think about what he would say if...[fill in the blank]

AND I was being polite...really:eek:

To those offended by "ma'am", remember that it's almost alway intended with respect...the words "ma'am" and "sir" were ingrained in my vocabulary at an early age. No offense intended (although - in the circumstances - the offensive use of ma'am would be the epitome of the southern practice of the gentle art of obfuscatory verbal attack...)

Frankly, I don't care what THAT woman thought...but I meant no offense to anyone here.:)

And the last THREE times I TRIED to catch a really obnoxious driver, they were all men - and I wouldn't have called them "sir"... ;):D

[OakLeaf]

I wish I had snappy comebacks for those people, but I'm with Loraura. Talking to them is just escalating the situation. Best to pretend to ignore them, and get a plate number.


To those offended by "ma'am", remember that it's almost alway intended with respect

When you use the word, okay.

But when I hear "ma'am" or "sir" - and when I use those words myself - it's usually intended with disrespect. In our regional usage, anyhow, it has a sarcastic connotation - it's a faux polite way of saying "moron," or worse. It's precisely the kind of term that a vehicular cyclist and an arrogant ignorant motorist would throw at each other.

[tulip]

Good job, Mr. Silver. Sometimes when motorists are less than polite (or safe), I just smile my biggest Southern Belle smile and waive like I know them. Maybe it'll get them thinking that they were ugly to someone that they actually know.

As for Ma'am, I'm 40 and fully expect to be called Ma'am by people I don't know, if they are younger than me. It's respectful. I've also lived in France, where it's nearly mandatory to say Madame/Monsieur. Same idea over here.

[channlluv]

Me, too. Ma'am is a sign of respect in my world and I've earned it.

As for rude motorists, I think a full-on public education program is called for in all states. Is there a cycling organization for the casual cyclist that might attach their name to a grant proposal to produce something like that?

Roxy

[Mr. Bloom]

In our regional usage, anyhow, it has a sarcastic connotation - it's a faux polite way of saying "moron," or worse. It's precisely the kind of term that a vehicular cyclist and an arrogant ignorant motorist would throw at each other.

It's sad when customs have evolved to where we can't discern words of respect from words of disdain.

But, that's where tone, inflection, body language and attitude make the difference;)

Rest assured, if I was being sarcastic, the recipient would know...regardless of the words I chose... :)


As for rude motorists, I think a full-on public education program is called for in all states. Is there a cycling organization for the casual cyclist that might attach their name to a grant proposal to produce something like that?

Roxy
www.bikeleague.org

We're members...I encourage you to research and consider joining.

[Jiffer]

Good job. Next time you might want to "suggest" the driver to read their DMV manual about cyclist's road rights. Maybe tell them what page to look up (since you're all into memorizing numbers and stuff!) ;)

[crazycanuck]

I will never ever call any female " Ma'am" again. I worked for a bank & said yes "ma'am" & the woman took a hissy fit/freaked out at me.. I was in tears not realizing what i'd said. Good thing I was about to leave the company to move to Australia!

[Mr. Bloom]

I was in tears not realizing what i'd said. Good thing I was about to leave the company to move to Australia!

That's very unfortunate:(

Every bit of verbal communication has two components:

the intent of the speaker
the interpretation of the hearer


The intent is firm...the interpretation is discretionary. In context, she should have given you the benefit of the doubt...and only proved herself to be a bit myopic by not doing so.

[crazycanuck]

Well, this woman was pretty peeved in the first place & took control of the conversation. I just listened, was really hesitant to reply & very nervous. She was a complete biotch to me & needed a slap in the head actually.

People think when they call a company's contact centre, they have the right to abuse the staff member. Umm...no. Plus, the staff will just talk about you after the call anyways & be jaded folks forever. :p

Never again will I work anywhere near banks or anything relating to retail. I have no patience for customers :mad:

[HoosierGiant]

Good job. Next time you might want to "suggest" the driver to read their DMV manual about cyclist's road rights. Maybe tell them what page to look up (since you're all into memorizing numbers and stuff!) ;)

I'm all for that... except for the fact that the Indiana BMV Driver's Manual only has this to say about cyclist's road rights (underline added):

Bicycle Safety
Drivers must routinely share the roadway with bicycles. Bicycles are entitled to the same right of way and are required to observe the same traffic laws as operators of automobiles. However, with a large percentage of bicyclists being children, a driver cannot assume a child will adhere to the laws. The safe and wise driver of fourwheeled vehicles will adjust for this and allow more room for the bicyclist. Be aware that poor nighttime visibility presents special problems to drivers of four-wheeled vehicles where, in some cases, bicyclists will not have proper reflectors or lights.

Bicycle Safety TipsBiking is fun and a great way to stay in shape. However, biking can become very dangerous on roadways, so stay safe by following these tips.
• Always Wear a Helmet: Bike helmets come in different shapes and sizes. When you shop for a helmet, be sure to look for:
o A CPSC sticker, which indicates the helmet meets safety standards.
o Proper fit. The helmet should sit level on your head and touch it all around.
o A bright color to make you more visible to motorists.
• Follow Traffic Rules: Cyclists are required to follow the same traffic rules as
automobiles when traveling on a roadway:
o Obey all stop signs, traffic signals and other laws of driving.
o Ride on the right side of the road, the same direction as traffic.
o Use hand signals to indicate turns and slowing down.
• Be Visible: It is crucial that motorists and other cyclists can see you while riding. Always make sure you are properly visible:
o Wear bright colored clothing and helmet.
o At night, use a headlight; put reflectors on your pedals and wheels, and wear reflective clothing or tape.
o Ride in the right third of the right travel lane so motorists will see you.
• Ride Defensively: Sharing the road with cars means you need to be alert and
ride defensively:
o Always check for oncoming traffic before entering an intersection or merging
onto a road.
o Look behind you before changing lanes.
o Remember that pedestrians have the right of way.
o Beware of motorists turning left; many may misjudge your speed and turn
too soon.
o Be cautious of cars passing on the right of a vehicle turning left.
Following these safety tips may help you prevent crashes or reduce your risk of injury in case of an accident. For more information about bicycle safety, check the National Bicycle Safety Network Web site at www.cdc.gov/ncipc.

Bicycle Facts
• In Indiana, the majority of bicycle accidents occurs during the five spring
and summer months of May – September.
• Nationwide a bicyclist is killed in a traffic accident every 10 hours.

One tiny reference to cyclists having the same right of way; the rest a lecture on what cyclists need to do to ensure their own safety. I understand that bicycles are considered vehicles and need to be included in the manual, but the whole thing seems rather lopsided to me.

[Mr. Bloom]

Thanks HG!

[kenyonchris]

I will never ever call any female " Ma'am" again. I worked for a bank & said yes "ma'am" & the woman took a hissy fit/freaked out at me.. I was in tears not realizing what i'd said. Good thing I was about to leave the company to move to Australia!

Wow! I would have apologized for unintentionally offending, but if her hissy fit continued, possibly bopped her upside the head with her pocket calculator.
I detained a 15 year old girl for stealing cell phones at the gym (she had them in her purse, pretty cut and dry). As I was talking to the little brat, she sat there and sullenly stared at me. She answered my questions with, "Yeah," and "Nah..." Finally I bent down, stuck my finger in her face and told her she might better change that to "yes, ma'am" and "no, Ma'am" .... down here in the south it is disrespectful to use anything less. She looked me square in the face and said, "I only use Ma'am to people I respect. I don't even say that to my mother." I told her she better start really quickly, or life was going to take a drastic turn for the worse. Or worst. This is an upper income, Juicy Couture wearing 15 year old girl.
Her mother, needless to say, was not shocked at her behavior.
I call people younger than me ma'am....and older as well. And sir. As in, "Sir, if you do not settle down, I am going to spray you!" and "No, Ma'am, I am not a fat biotch, but thank you."

[OakLeaf]

As in, "Sir, if you do not settle down, I am going to spray you!" and "No, Ma'am, I am not a fat biotch, but thank you."

Exactly the usages I was talking about. :p

[crazycanuck]

I'm not sure which ship's in town but anyways a USS (will find out name) docked in Fremantle today. I saw it as I rode down the coast but thought nothing more of it.

UNtil...I was picking up some fish etc from a supermarket quite a distance from the port. Some of the sailors were there w a friend & I started talking to one of them. He kept calling me "Ma'am" :o I felt so old :o He was cool & we laughed that today when they arrived, it was a boooteful day..compared to the last few...no rain!!! Nice gents & are stationed in Maryland.

Conversation went sort of like this & I have to giggle...

Me (forgetting that they're still on tour): Where are you headed after Western Australia?
Officer: Sorry Ma'am, that's classified.
Me-Whoops, right..sorry! (I thought of a Kelly McGillis line from Top Gun but I don't know how he'd respond...:o)

[Crankin]

I guess to me, the use of ma'am connotes the attitude that Oak speaks of. And yes, it represents a whole lot of culturally loaded regional/political things that I don't like. When I moved to Miami as a teen and some of my friends started calling my mother ma'am, she had the same reaction. I do not see it as a sign of respect. It seems like a "false" respect.
I have no problem being called "Mrs...." in a work situation, because for 30 years that's how I was addressed as a teacher. But, I couldn't stand being called "Mrs..." by my kid's friends. In my social circle in AZ all of the kids called parents by first names. When we moved here, it was different. Although, once I told the kids I wanted to be called by my first name, they did. And in the end, all of the families we became friends with felt the same way.

[bmccasland]

I think some sort of formality ought to be taught to kids, and that they shouldn't be calling adults by their first names. I like the southern solution - Mr. or Miss. First Name, although some ladies may prefer being Mrs. Husband's Last Name. Children are corrected if they don't use titles when addressing adults, so my friend's kids or the neighborhood children call me Miss Beth. If it's your parent's generation or older you'd better use a title when addressing them!

[PamNY]

I like the Southern tradition of "Miss Firstname" as well. It's a charming way to recognize a familiar relationship and show respect at the same time.

I'm always surprised when people object to ma'am, but I grew up in the South. Nowadays I hear it mostly from cops or merchants who moved here from countries where elaborate courtesies are common (mainly the Middle East).

Is anyone familiar with cultures where women are called what sounds to my ear like "mommy"? I think it's Caribbean.

Mr. Silver, your motorist exchange is great.

Pam

[tulip]

Well, if you are in the south and someone calls you "Ma'am," please don't be rude and bristle at them. When in Rome...

[Becky]

I frequently "sir" and "ma'am" people. I work in public service in a state that has both strong northern and southern roots, depending on which county you're in. It's become a habit, and it's meant with nothing but the utmost respect. The "northerners" don't seem to mind it, the "southerners" seem to like it, and it's more polite IMO than "hey you" when I don't know someone's name.

That said, I really dislike being called "Miss Becky", although I tolerate it if it's children who are doing so. I had a boss call me "Miss Becky" once in an office-wide meeting, and I didn't like it. I guess that occurence has left a bad taste in my mouth for the expression.

[VeloVT]

I don't have a problem with "sir," "miss," "ma'am" etc as forms of addressing a stranger. I am chagrined that at age 29, I have recently crossed over from being a "miss" to being a "ma'am." I have mixed feelings about it actually -- on the one hand, "ma'am" seems to imply that I'm being taken somewhat more seriously ("miss" is a little bit like "young lady"), but it makes me feel old too.

What does bother me is when people use "miss/mrs" instead of "Ms." in professional correspondence/settings.

[Becky]

What does bother me is when people use "miss/mrs" instead of "Ms." in professional correspondence/settings.

Agreed- that makes me crazy!

[TrekTheKaty]

Hoosier Giant inspired to go off and do a homework assignment. I thought I was knowledgeable about the bicycle laws of the road (from here), but I have neglected to actually check my state driver's manual until now. WOW! Impressive! Sorry it's so long, but there's a whole chapter on sharing the road :D Guess I should send another donation to MoBikeFed :cool:

Some things you should know when sharing the road with mopeds or
bicycles:
• Most collisions with bicycles and mopeds happen at intersections, where
smaller, slower bicycles and mopeds are especially easy to overlook.
Scan carefully for bicycles and mopeds before proceeding through an
intersection, giving them the same consideration you would any other
vehicle.
• Bicycles are often overlooked by motorists.
• It is not always easy to judge the speed or distance of a bicycle.
• Accidents with wrong-way bicyclists frequently occur when a motorist
wants to turn right onto a main road and is only looking left for
approaching traffic. Be sure to look right and check for wrong-way
bicyclists on the road or sidewalk before proceeding.
• On residential streets, especially those with parked cars, travel at or
below the speed limit.

SHARING THE ROAD WITH MOPEDS AND BICYCLES
61
• If you are following a bicyclist and need to make a right turn, slow down
and remain behind the cyclist until you are able to turn.
• Cyclists often travel at surprisingly fast speeds. If you need to make a left
turn, yield to oncoming bicyclists unless you are absolutely sure you can
make the turn before the cyclist reaches the intersection.
• Bicyclists change speed and lane position when encountering bad road
conditions, such as manhole covers, diagonal railroad tracks, drain
grates, road debris, or in strong winds. Be ready to react.
• When you are passing, give bicycles and mopeds a full lane width. Do
not squeeze past these road users. The bicycle is generally a slower
moving vehicle and this may require you to slow down. Wait for a clear
stretch of road before passing a cyclist in a lane too narrow to share.
• Check for passing bicyclists before opening your car door into a traffic
lane or bicycle lane.
• A bicycle lane is a portion of a roadway designated by striping to be
used by bicycles. You may cross a bicycle lane when turning or when
entering or leaving the roadway. You must yield to bicyclists in a bicycle
lane.

WHERE TO RIDE MOPEDS AND BICYCLES
On public streets and highways, you have the same rights and
responsibilities as a motor vehicle operator. Always ride with traffic, never
against it. When operating at less than the posted speed or traffic flow,
generally ride as near to the right side of the roadway as safe. The right
edge of the road often has hazards like ditches, gutters, sand, and gravel
shoulders. Leave space between yourself and these hazards as needed for
safety.
You may move more toward the middle or left of the lane or roadway, as
appropriate:
• when making a left turn;
• when avoiding hazards;
• when the lane is too narrow to share with another vehicle; and
• when there is a right-turn-only lane and you are going straight.
Always check traffic and signal before changing lanes or changing your
position within a lane. On a one-way street, bicyclists may also choose to
ride as far left as is safe.
The law does not allow you to ride a moped on any part of the federal
interstate highway system.

SAFETY TIPS FOR MOPED AND BICYCLE RIDERS
1. State law does not require you to wear a helmet. However, wearing a
safety-certified helmet can prevent serious head injuries or death.
2. Be sure your bike is in safe condition and has all the equipment
required by law.
3. Make sure motorists see you. Wear bright colored clothes and stay out
of a vehicle’s blind spots. Use proper lights and reflectors when riding
after dark.
4. Make sure you signal before you slow down, change lanes, or turn.
Before merging, changing lanes, or turning, scan behind and in front to
ensure that it is safe to make this maneuver. Do so in plenty of time
and in cooperation with other drivers who will be affected by your move.
If it is not safe, continue on a straight course and scan repeatedly and
only move once it is safe. In conditions of heavy traffic, less proficient
bicyclists may find it easier to wait near the curb for a safe gap to
appear.
5. Be careful when passing to the left of a parked or moving vehicle. You
should leave 3 to 4 feet of clearance to avoid suddenly opened car
doors or to allow for a vehicle to swerve.
6. Be extra careful at intersections. Do not assume your right-of-way
when there is a vehicle approaching. Be aware that motor vehicle
drivers may not see you approaching the intersection, or may believe
that you are moving at a slower speed than you are.
7. Keep a steady line and be predictable as a courtesy to other traffic and
to increase your personal safety.
8. For teen and adult bicyclists, studies show that riding on the street with
traffic, not against it (following the same traffic rules that other vehicles
do), is far safer than riding on the sidewalk.

MOPED DRIVERS NEED A DRIVER LICENSE
To drive any motorized bicycle such as a moped on the public streets, you
must have a valid driver license. A motorized bicycle is defined as any twowheeled
or three-wheeled device having an automatic transmission and a
motor with a cylinder capacity of not more than fifty cubic centimeters,
which produces less than three gross brake horsepower, and is capable of
propelling the device at a maximum speed of not more than thirty miles per
hour on level ground.

EQUIPMENT REQUIRED ON MOPEDS AND BICYCLES
You do not have to register your moped or bicycle and it does not have to
be inspected. However, Missouri law requires certain equipment on
mopeds and bicycles.
BRAKES —Your brakes must be able to stop you within 25 feet when
traveling 10 mph.
LIGHTS AND REFLECTORS — The number of bicycle-auto crashes rises
dramatically between sunset and sunrise. Almost all such crashes can be
prevented with proper bicycle lights and reflectors. You must have the
following lights and reflectors when riding your bicycle from ½ hour after
sunset until ½ hour before sunrise:
1. A WHITE LIGHT on the front of your bicycle or carried by you that
other drivers can see from 500 feet.
2. A REAR RED REFLECTOR, at least two square inches, or a REAR
RED LIGHT that drivers can see when reflected by their vehicles’ low
beam headlights at 600 feet.
62
63
3. REFLECTIVE MATERIAL OR LIGHTS on the pedals, crank arms,
shoes, or lower legs that drivers can see when reflected by their
vehicles’ low beam headlights at 200 feet.
4. REFLECTIVE MATERIAL AND/OR LIGHTS ON EACH SIDE OF THE
BICYCLE or bicyclist that drivers can see when reflected by their
vehicles’ low beam headlights at 300 feet. This does not apply to
mopeds that comply with the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration Regulations.

[Tuckervill]

Well, if you are in the south and someone calls you "Ma'am," please don't be rude and bristle at them. When in Rome...

+1000

[shootingstar]

Other canucks are welcome to give their opinion on the use of ma'am:

Where we are in this part of Canada or Toronto, simply rarely hear to it or it's used rarely at all the where I've worked where the biz dealt with customers/public.

However methinks I do hear 'sir' abit more often.

I don't use it. It's just not part of my English conversational style which is partially influenced where I grew up. HOWEVER, I have noticed if I attempt to speak French, I will use "madam".

And in Chinese, there is a similar term to use for a woman in conversation. I will use it.

I can't even explain why on earth I don't use ma'am or sir hardly at all.
But it doesn't bother me if people address me as ma'am, even though more people tend to refer to me as 'miss'...without using my name. :p
_____________________________________________________________________________
I can't remember when I ever spoke with an errant motorist. I've dealt with angry strangers before in the past, but it had absolutely nothing to do with cycling or while on bike. Because of these non-cycling-related, angry stranger situations, (well actually they were racist incidents), I have no interest in challenging any angry stranger when there is only a few mins. or secs. to remind /warn/explain anything to them while they are in a car and I'm in on bike.

[crazycanuck]

Umm, I'm not saying that I was annoyed at the gent using the term " Ma'am"..i was honoured to be called "ma'am" & don't hear it at all down this way. I just had to giggle about being called "ma'am"

I'll use Sir if i don't know the person but for a woman, not "ma'am"..

[cosc]

I too was taught early to show respect by addressing my elders as Ma'am and Sir. A simple "yes" or "no" was not acceptable.
Not following through with this expectation might have dire consequences as a youngster.

Mr. Silver I'm glad you talked to the driver. She definitely put her back up, but I imagine she learned something good from the confrontation.

[Crankin]

I may be speaking only for myself, but I don't know anyone who was taught to address people as ma'am and sir and the impending dire consequences if you didn't. It definitely is a regional thing and it will always make me bristle. I don't say anything unless it's in a comfortable situation; like in a store i don't say anything, but the chance of someone calling me ma'am around here is slim.
My son in the Marines uses it now and I have told him to cool it when he's around me. He doesn't address me as ma'am, but I heard him saying it in stores, etc. when we visited him last fall.

[witeowl]

Up until my middle twenties, I bristled a little upon being called ma'am, but that's gone away since I certainly can no longer be called miss. (Besides, I actually feel "miss" is a rather dismissive term, as in, "Don't you worry your little head about that, miss.")

So, for those that are offended by the use of ma'am... What is the alternative? In a situation in which you would use "sir" out of deference or respect, what would be the way to respectfully address a woman?

I'm genuinely stymied.

On a competely different tangent, I hate when people use "lady" to call out to a woman (or, worse yet, address a woman). I can never keep myself from hearing in my head, "Hey, Laaaaddddyyyyyy!" a la Jerry Lewis.

[kenyonchris]

I guess to me, the use of ma'am connotes the attitude that Oak speaks of. And yes, it represents a whole lot of culturally loaded regional/political things that I don't like. When I moved to Miami as a teen and some of my friends started calling my mother ma'am, she had the same reaction. I do not see it as a sign of respect. It seems like a "false" respect.
I have no problem being called "Mrs...." in a work situation, because for 30 years that's how I was addressed as a teacher. But, I couldn't stand being called "Mrs..." by my kid's friends. In my social circle in AZ all of the kids called parents by first names. When we moved here, it was different. Although, once I told the kids I wanted to be called by my first name, they did. And in the end, all of the families we became friends with felt the same way.

If I catch my kids calling anyone younger than 20 (or on their own, living as an adult, paying their own way) anything but Ms. so and so, or if they are friends, Miss Jane or whatever (for some reason the rule doesn't apply to men? They are Mr. Lastname or just firstname....go figure) they better start running because my hand will BLISTER their backsides. They address all adults as "Yes, Sir, or "No, Ma'am" in a deferential, obedient, polite tone. They are 15 and 11, and I have never gotten anything but compliments on their behavior in public (at home we have the usual issues, but they know there is no pushing anything in public). Ma'am or Sir gives them something polite to use when they are not sure what else to use. Me too....and saying, "Excuse me, Ma'am" or whatever is better than "Hey you!"

Manners have so gone by the wayside....part of the reason (on topic) we get our butts run off the road! People have forgotten how to be patient and polite!

[kenyonchris]

Ps.
+1 on hating "hey lady!"...tacky, tacky, tacky.

[OakLeaf]

As I said, I think "sir" is as insulting as "ma'am" - sometimes even more so. It's obviously a regional thing and it's not just "when in Rome," because when it's a matter of usage, not language, then the recipient of the term might not realize that usage where they currently are is different from usage where they're from. But it appears it's good for all of us to be aware that there are other usages, and we shouldn't assume an insult from the use of "sir" or "ma'am" or from its absence.

But to the person who asked "what is the alternative," I'd say, "why is a word even necessary?"

If you're trying to get the attention of someone you don't know, then a simple "excuse me" or "pardon me;" if they don't realize you're speaking to them, then a reference to a piece of their clothing ("In the red dress") will identify them to themselves better than a simple reference to their sex.

If you're speaking to someone whose name you don't know, but want or need to learn it, then "Ms...?" or "Mr...?" or simply "I'm sorry, I didn't catch your name."

If you're speaking to someone whose name you do know, then use it.

That's all.

[witeowl]

But to the person who asked "what is the alternative," I'd say, "why is a word even necessary?"

Because I want to show respect, even to strangers. Is that such a bad thing?

I don't know why or when ma'am or sir became insults. I spent way too much time googling it just now, and it seems that people in the South use sir/ma'am, and the rest of us don't. Except for the Northerners who piped in and say they use sir/ma'am. And I'm a Westerner (born/raised in CA) who uses sir/ma'am, and I've never run into anyone who showed the least offense when I used it (in CA/WI/NV). People here keep saying that it's a regional thing, but I can't for the life of me figure out what region that is.

The only good news I can find through my googling is that the people who appreciate sir/ma'am as respectful seem to far outnumber the people who see those terms as insults. That gives me hope that we're not doomed to a world where we all call each other "dude". :rolleyes:

[MartianDestiny]

...
But to the person who asked "what is the alternative," I'd say, "why is a word even necessary?"

If you're trying to get the attention of someone you don't know, then a simple "excuse me" or "pardon me;" if they don't realize you're speaking to them, then a reference to a piece of their clothing ("In the red dress") will identify them to themselves better than a simple reference to their sex...

Well, personally I'd be more put off by "excuse me you in the red dress" than "ma'am" or "excuse me ma'am". I'd take the former to be of a tone more of "hey you!" and imply less respect than the later.

In the end I feel tone, more than word use, is important. For instance I could be offended just as easily (if not more so) by "excuse me" than "ma'am" depending on the verbal and physical cues I'm getting from the speaker (this of course causes issues on the internet).

Being from the south I was raised on "yes, ma'am" "no, ma'am" (or sir where appropriate). I can say it politely with respect or I can be a sarcastic little snot about it; all in the tone. Incidentally I'm much better at conveying "annoyed sarcastic snot who thinks you are an igmo" tone when saying "excuse me" than when saying "ma'am" (and I'm getting better and better at conveying it when saying "on you LEFT"...which generally comes out in a tone of "MOVE OVER MORON"...:o)

And I'm sorry, but to some extent it is "when in Rome". If you are traveling somewhere where social norms and conventions are likely different than yours (and the US is big enough for some of these differences to occur even within the country) you should know enough about their customs to not be grossly offended or offend (you don't have to LIKE it...just know enough to understand and respect the different convention of the area).

[TrekTheKaty]

Because I want to show respect, even to strangers. Is that such a bad thing?

I don't know why or when ma'am or sir became insults.

That was my question also!

[Vireo]

12 years in the US Marine Corps keeps me saying Sir and Ma'am 12 years later:p

So yesterday I rolled up to a stop sign and make my stop and go simultaneously with the car to my left. All of a sudden, as she is almost midway in the intersection she turns right -- right in front of me no turn signal by the way. Older lady in her mid 60's totally in shock as I yelled "Whoa!" and she looks over her right shoulder to see me almost in her passenger seat.

I motion for her to go ahead and make her right as we are both now in the middle of the intersection. She waves me to go but her CAR is blocking my path. So I motion again for her to go.

So what does the heavy-set jerk motorist in the SUV behind me yell out the window? "THERE'S A BIKE LANE ON THIRD!" (A street that runs parallel to where I am on the coast) I am two short blocks from a dedicated bike path (with barrier) from where I am if I continue in the direction I am heading.

What jerk motorist doesn't get is how the lady in the car was totally at fault totally absent minded and had it not been for my skill level I would have T-Boned her. She had no turn signal and she was almost halfway in the intersection before she had a "oh sh!t I should be turning right" moment.

Yeah he sped off before I was able to explain to him in great detail how asinine his comment was.:mad:

[Crankin]

KenyonChris, if you knew me, you would know that I am a stickler for manners. But what you describe is not considered a necessity for being well mannered here. My grown up children are extremely well mannered and I let them know what was acceptable and not by *showing* them. Heck, I even made them wear dress up clothes to religious school, until I realized no one else did! If an adult they knew wanted to be called by his/her last name, they did. But here, there are even schools where the teachers are called by their first name. Not any where I worked, but one where a lot of my kid's friends went. And guess what, all of those kids are now very successful people who generally have abided by society's rules.
I wanted my children to behave and be well mannered because that's what nice people do. I did not want "obedient" kids. They questioned me plenty, yet there never was a major problem with either of them.
This is definitely a cultural and regional difference. Probably the reason why I hated living in the south and decided I wanted to leave the west, so my kids would have the same values as I grew up with. So, I am done with this discussion.

[Mr. Bloom]

Besides, I actually feel "miss" is a rather dismissive term, as in, "Don't you worry your little head about that, miss."

Me too!

I won't even tell you what association I have with the word "Madam" (unless I'm in France).

I don't buy that its a regional difference - as a kid, visiting family in New England, all their friends marveled at my use of the word "sir" and "ma'am"...so to the New Englander's, I'm sharing my own life experience in New England...and it further reinforced my commitment to the practice.

Anyone remember Beverly Hills Cop where Axel was being arrested :D:D

[fastdogs]

wow. I am amazed at the number of people who take offense at polite terminology. As kids, we also had to call my parents and all other adults "sir" or "ma'am". After 20 years in the army, I will continue to call people sir or ma'am when being polite. We must be the only society in the world where people get offended when you try to be polite.
When I was in Korea, one of the first things we learned was the polite way to address people. They weren't offended, even though it was the equivalent of our sir and ma'am (different for older married lady and young lady, but the male word was the same regardless of age)
So many things to be offended about, and people get offended when others try to be polite. I will continue to be polite, even knowing this, and if someone is offended by it, I will figure that's their problem.
vickie

[shootingstar]

While I don't mind people occasionally using "ma'am" for myself, (fastdogs did you actually use these terms for your parents???), I think I figured out why I rarely use "sir" or "ma'am" when speaking English vs. using non-English equivalents when I speak (Chinese or French):

If I am in a social group that is predominantly white and they are all adults, like me and they don't use ma'am nor sir, I will not use it. ....to me that sounds too deferential...as someone who is non-white in a predominantly white social group situation.

I hope you understand what I mean and not take offense. Do understand that it is a unconscious style on my part, it is not an active decision I thought about years ago. I suddenly realized the possible reason..just now. Yea, 1/2 century later. :D

The reason why I instinctively use the polite equivalent terms when attempting to speak French or Chinese, is that I speak both of those languages badly but I probably have better nuanced language "feelers" for Chinese expressions compared to French. To make every attempt to save face from mangling a foreign language and poor grammar, every word of politeness counts. :D:D:D:D But seriously...it has helped me in such situations.

To those who worked in the army, I worked in a government dept. which included alot of communication with the police and firefighters. Predominantly male workplace. Decision-makers were primarily male. I rarely used 'sir'. And none of the guys expected it either. I rarely heard other women use 'sir' either. I choose the culture of police and fire depts. as similar to army/military, since there is a shadow of the rank and file/order chain-of-command in management style and working relationships.

And this was 15 yrs. ago.

[Possegal]

When we responded to my folks it was - yes sir, no sir, yes ma'am, no ma'am. A habit I carry with me long after my father has been gone. I'm Pittsburgh born and bred, but the sir/ma'am thing I believe had much more to do with my fighter pilot father. :) But where I lived, NO ONE called adults by anything other than MR or MRS lastname. And I like it that way. I was never a fan of the Miss firstname, though I was amused that my friends that had their kids use that form of addressing adults, had them call me Dr firstname. :) That wasn't as bad. But again, it is really all about tone and how things are said. As long as people are respectful, I'm OK. Even if being called ma'am does remind me that I have more years behind me than I have in front of me.

[shootingstar]

His children have called me by my first name ever since their early teens. I never had problems with that and it is an exception that I make since 2nd marriages and partnerships create more complex social /family situations ..compared to 50 years ago.

But normally for young children and teens up to a certain point, not at all related to the adult, to use Mrs/Ms./Miss/Mr., is safest and easiest for everyone.

I've never known any Chinese-speaking family use Chinese equivalents of sir or ma'am to their parents. There are other expectations of respectful behaviour by children to parents which cut across all cultures.

[Eden]

wow. I am amazed at the number of people who take offense at polite terminology.

I don't take offense if a military/ex military or southern person ma'am's me. I understand that they've had it drilled into them that it is the polite thing to do and I recognize that they are not trying to insult me. That said, I still don't have to enjoy being called ma'am.

The point is that yes indeed we are not a homogenous society - ma'am is not always considered to be polite.... In fact in some places it is generally used as something of an insult if used on a younger person. While there can be understanding, it still doesn't take away the creepy feeling.

You learned the respectful terminology when you were in Korea - you didn't insist that sir and ma'am should be good enough for them since it was polite where you grew up - correct? Don't expect that everyone in places in the USA will understand that you were raised that way and don't expect that every place in the US has the same social graces and insults either. Some people - especially those who perhaps have not travelled and or have not be exposed to other ways of thinking so much may get their hackles raised quite a bit if you ma'am them and you may get a reaction similar to CC's experience.

[OakLeaf]

We must be the only society in the world where people get offended when you try to be polite.

No, you're missing my point.

Where I live, "sir" and "ma'am" are terms that people use EXCLUSIVELY when they're trying to be RUDE.

Unless they're in the military or recently discharged - which is a culture all to itself.

[PamNY]

Oakleaf, do you mind telling me what region you're talking about? I've told several friends (all living in US now but wide variety of nationalities, cultures and backgrounds) about this discussion and no one's ever heard of such objections. I do know women who assume "ma'am" has to do with age, but that's it.

Pam

[witeowl]

Where I live, "sir" and "ma'am" are terms that people use EXCLUSIVELY when they're trying to be RUDE.

May I ask where that is?

[lph]

Only just now read this thread. I think a point that seems to have been missed is that it makes no difference if you're using a term of respect or not, if you aren't showing respect. Like the teenage girl back a whole lot of posts. Then it becomes a faux show of respect, just to get out of trouble, or even to increase your show of disrespect, sarcastically.

And if you are being respectful and polite otherwise, it's not necessary to use a term of respect. The tone of voice and your manner is enough. eta: not quite true, though, I do appreciate it and have taught my son to use "please" and thank you" liberally, which strictly speaking are just niceties. But said sincerely they do reduce friction.

In Norway we have no terms like this in usage, and I can confirm that they are not necessary to get someone's attention. If I were called ma'am or miss or whatever in the States in a polite tone of voice and setting I wouldn't get offended though, just figure that it was meant well. But I would hesitate to use them myself, because I don't what the labels "mean", and it feels strange to me to use labels on strangers in the first place.

Someone calling me miss here would be over 80 :)

[OakLeaf]

I'm in northern Appalachia. But Crankin is in Cambridge, MA, which could hardly be more different culturally.

Except, I suppose, that both regions have a pretty ingrained class consciousness, from opposite ends of the spectrum; maybe that's the common thread.

Anyway, I'm out too. :cool:

[Mr. Bloom]

Interesting footnote:

According to wikipedia:

"After addressing her as "Your Majesty," it is proper to address The Queen of the United Kingdom as "Ma'am" for the remainder of the conversation..."

[bmccasland]

Not sure where "sir" came from, in english vernicular, but "ma'am" is short for "madam", which comes from the french "madame", which directly translates to "my lady". SO in a way it is a title of respect or patronization depending on your point of view. "Sir' is the title given to Knights, but not all men were members of the chivalry.

I think the use of titles, especially in the south, is a holdover from the age of gentility and the fascination with the renaissance. It became ingrained with the idea of what someone with "good manners" "should use". And there it is today.

As many have pointed out, often however, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. With a smile or a sneer? I found moving back to the south, I fell in to using "sir" and "ma'am" more frequently as it is expected, where I didn't use them so much living out west (in Arizona and California).

Having been raised southern, and in the military, I have the biased point of view that the use of titles does show respect, and position in a pecking order. Children are not on equal basis with adults, therefore should use titles when addressing adults. And in professional, or formal settings, not all adults are equal either, so we use titles there as well.

And sometimes, when Officer Friendly is asking you why you blew the stop sign? A deep breath, and "yes sir/ma'am, "no sir/ma'am" are the only correct answers. I didn't see the sign, sir. Bunch of leaves in front of the sign, sir. Yes, there's a warning sign, I'll do better next time, sir. Deep breath.

Kenyonchris we love you and the crap you and your compatriots that walk the thin blue line put up with!

[channlluv]

I agree with Beth on this one. It's a sign of respect in my book, too, especially when used with sincerity, and having been raised with good manners, it would never occur to me to use those terms in any other way.

As a 44-year-old, I'm often called ma'am, even out here in Southern California, and while reading this thread and reviewing my own use of those terms here, I'm pretty sure I only use them with people older than myself. People who are my peers in age just get a "Pardon me," or "Excuse me." I'd never examined that before reading this thread.

I've also caught myself calling friends of my daughter Darlin' and Sweetheart. Also terms of endearment as these are kids - male and female - who I genuinely like a lot. I've known most of them since they were all in Kindergarten together and they're about to go into 6th grade. Many of them call me Roxy, which I have to admit I found disconcerting at first, but I asked my daughter what she calls their mothers, and she replied with their first names.

Maybe it's an enlightened Southern California thing and I'm still getting used to it, but there you go. I don't think I've ever heard my daughter say "Yes, ma'am" to anyone now that I'm thinking about it. She's very good on the pleases and thank yous, but man, I've got some hometraining to do.

...Okay, so I just went and asked her if she ever uses those terms and she said no. I asked her why not and she sort of chuckled and said, "'Cause it would make me sound like the most polite person in the world." Read that nerdy, I guess. At lease she recognizes the implication of the use of those terms.

Yep, some hometraining is in order, especially before we head to Florida next week to visit my family there.

Roxy

[salsabike]

Only just now read this thread. I think a point that seems to have been missed is that it makes no difference if you're using a term of respect or not, if you aren't showing respect. Like the teenage girl back a whole lot of posts. Then it becomes a faux show of respect, just to get out of trouble, or even to increase your show of disrespect, sarcastically.

And if you are being respectful and polite otherwise, it's not necessary to use a term of respect. The tone of voice and your manner is enough. eta: not quite true, though, I do appreciate it and have taught my son to use "please" and thank you" liberally, which strictly speaking are just niceties. But said sincerely they do reduce friction.

In Norway we have no terms like this in usage, and I can confirm that they are not necessary to get someone's attention. If I were called ma'am or miss or whatever in the States in a polite tone of voice and setting I wouldn't get offended though, just figure that it was meant well. But I would hesitate to use them myself, because I don't what the labels "mean", and it feels strange to me to use labels on strangers in the first place.

Someone calling me miss here would be over 80 :)

Nice post, lph.