Barefoot Running

[HillSlugger]

A recent thread here about beginning running has drifted into a thread about barefoot running. I think we should split this out as a separate thread to make it more visible to anyone interested.

Barefoot running includes real barefoot running and it includes near-barefoot running, running with a thin covering. One favored shoe for this is the Vibram FiveFingers (http://vibramfivefingers.com) shoe. I just ordered two styles, Classic and KSO, in two sizes each and will check them out and send back what I don't like/doesn't fit. My thoughts are that the classic would be good for around the house walking and the KSO (Keep Stuff Out) would be better for actual running.

I'll let you know what I think when they arrive!

Please share your interest and experience with barefoot running!

[Urlea]

MD: I'm excited to read what you think of the Five Fingers!

When I was younger I used to spend most of my time outside barefoot. Now it seems like sometimes the more I run the more my feet just want to be free of shoes.

After my long HIM training rides, I have been taking off the bike shoes & just running about 1/4mi in my socks. It has felt so good! Fortunately the 70.3 I am racing in two weeks is near Minneapolis where they have a Vibram's retailer, the plan is to try on & buy a pair of the KSO Five Fingers as my race reward. :D

I'm looking forward to it, but I also know it will need to be a slow process adjusting to barefoot running.

[Biciclista]

i look forward to reading your reviews. Urlea, i'm not surprised you were a barefoot kid. So was I!

[HillSlugger]

I usually get barefoot as soon as I get home and I'll also kick off my shoes under my desk. I really like the idea of this and hope it works out.

[Tuckervill]

My son has been barefoot his whole life. He runs faster barefoot than he does in baseball cleats. We've proved it!

I would consider being barefoot all the time, including running, because my feet take a beating from changing shoes a lot. I mostly wear Keen sandals, but if I switch to flip-flops or running shoes, my feet get sore.

I would like to see those Five-Finger shoes in action, too.

Karen

[Jolt]

The VFFS rock! I have been running in them since January of this year and would never want to go back to regular running shoes (like the Brooks Adrenalines I used to wear) now--they feel so clunky after getting used to minimal footwear. The only problem is cold weather--your toes get really chilly! Next winter I will probably wear some flat, flexible water shoes with thick wool socks for outdoor runs. I have also been wearing the VFFs for hiking and intend to continue doing so this summer; so far I have done a couple of 6-7 mile hikes in them and plan to do progressively longer/harder trips as the summer goes on (including a Presidential Traverse late in the summer!). Highly recommended (provided you build up slowly), although I have a feeling that for any AMC trips I will be required to wear boots :(.

[GLC1968]

I've been devouring the info at this site (posted by Andrea) this afternoon:

http://runningbarefoot.org/


I'm so intrigued! I've always had foot trouble and I quickly found that moving to more and more suportive and rigid shoes was helping for a little while, but then the pain would eventually come back. This may be the start of something really cool for me.

And I want a pair of those VFF shoes, but until I find out if this will even work for me, I'm not going to spend the money. So cool though!

[Andrea]

I'm happy to see some people willing to give barefooting a try!

Like I've said before... it's not going to be for everyone, not a cure-all to foot/joint/leg problems, and not everyone will fall in love with it. That's OK (which some barefoot-purist will deny), everyone's gotta figure out what works best for herself!

I love my VFF shoes. I wear them any time I'm running someplace with rocks or hidden sticks, etc. (which is about 80% of my runs)

[wavedancer]

I started running with the VFFs just a few days ago (see post on other thread) and continue to enthusiastically explore barefooting. Today I went for a walk and jog totally barefoot. We are staying at a resort in AZ right now for primarily a mountain biking vacation, but it has perfect terrain for getting my feet used to being shoeless again. I took a walk this evening on coarse gravel trails and some stream-side dirt trails. The coarse gravel was a little intense, but I thought about walking on coals and found the more I relaxed the easier it was. I also ran for about 15 minutes on a lovely grassy area. What heaven!

50 years ago my pediatrician told my mother that the best thing she could do for my flat feet was to let me go barefoot as much as possible and take dancing lessons. I remember being thrilled by doctor's orders to be barefoot, and the dancing lessons became a big part of my life. Wise down-to-earth doctor!

Running barefoot in the grass, I felt like that kid again! :D

[roadie gal]

I cringe at the thought of running barefoot around here. There are too many sticks and stones and other sharp objects on the roads and the trails. I would prefer a shoes with less heel than normal running shoes, but I want some protection for my feet.

As an aside, I was out walking on a trail with my dogs a while back and a guy came running up from behind me. As he passed me I noticed that he was barefoot except for cloth medical tape that he had on the bottom of his feet to protect them.

[Biciclista]

and here in Seattle, we have broken glass everywhere thanks to a lack of a glass recycling law.But you can be almost barefoot and enjoy the relative freedom.

[Crankin]

I would never run barefoot... the thought makes me cringe. But, to each her own! I tried running barefoot on the beach once and had shin splints for weeks.

[GLC1968]

I did my first barefoot adventure last night. First of all, I'm now trying to be barefoot as much as possible when I'm not at work. We do have stinging nettles in the grass around the farm, so I'm not sure how I'll work around that. We also have certain shoes that we only wear when we go into the goat pen which I can't exactly give up (at least, not yet!).

BUT, starting small, I decided to put out the trash and recycling without shoes last night. Our driveway is not very long, but it is all sharp gravel. It wasn't easy, but I kept telling myself to relax and to breathe easier, and I was able to step lighter and I survived. My feet were dirty, but no worse for the new wear!

I'm going to start with walking & working around the farm first. I'll progress up to running with time.

[HillSlugger]

I would never run barefoot... the thought makes me cringe. But, to each her own! I tried running barefoot on the beach once and had shin splints for weeks.

From my understanding, shin splints is the result of heel striking and having your foot then slap down onto the ground, stressing the muscles on the front of your shins. In barefoot running you should NEVER heel strike; I've read that it's enough to rattle your fillings if you do.

[Jolt]

From my understanding, shin splints is the result of heel striking and having your foot then slap down onto the ground, stressing the muscles on the front of your shins. In barefoot running you should NEVER heel strike; I've read that it's enough to rattle your fillings if you do.

Agreed. Just the thought of heel-striking in bare feet or VFFs hurts...

[MartianDestiny]

From my understanding, shin splints is the result of heel striking and having your foot then slap down onto the ground, stressing the muscles on the front of your shins. In barefoot running you should NEVER heel strike; I've read that it's enough to rattle your fillings if you do.

I realized I was doing this in shoes when I started running again last month (I am not a fan of running, but I want to try some tri's, so...). I was not happy that my shins, thighs, and knees were not happy after a mere 2 miles (I was up to 10 no problems last year).

The other thread was timely. I'm trying barefoot to correct this issue. First run was great, no leg soreness, but my feet weren't happy. I'll have to go a bit slower to get them to toughen up for me and wear shoes to get the mileage in in the meantime.

My roommate thinks I've lost my marbles.

I'm not sure I can get the VFFs to work for me since all but my big toe are moderately webbed :( Hoping I can find some locally I can try on and see.

[Andrea]

...My roommate thinks I've lost my marbles...

You'll get this a lot! You'll also get random bits of unsolicited "advice" from people who see you with no shoes.

I was running on a MUT the other day and a woman going the other direction said, "You're barefoot! Do you run that way?!" (thank you Ms. Captain Obvious)

[MartianDestiny]

You'll get this a lot! You'll also get random bits of unsolicited "advice" from people who see you with no shoes.

I was running on a MUT the other day and a woman going the other direction said, "You're barefoot! Do you run that way?!" (thank you Ms. Captain Obvious)

"Here's your sign" (of course, she was probably thinking of that phrase applied to you as well) ;)

[HillSlugger]

My FiveFingers are being delivered today! I won't get to run in them for a while yet but I'll use them for walking around in first, assuming they fit.

[OakLeaf]

Barefootin' hits the big time (http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20090603/ts_usnews/shouldyoutossyourrunningshoesandjustgobarefoot).

I really need to find a PT or podiatrist who, as the article says, doesn't believe that "one size fits all." :(

[Biciclista]

the article that Oakleaf mentions above listed several shoe manufacturers that supposedly carry minimalist running shoes. the only one who seemed to have minimalist shoes was the Terra Plana brand. The others all carried running shoes that looked like they had the typical big heels, etc.
I walk in Nike Free shoes, before that I was wearing a popular brand (i forget) with a big built in arch and a firm sole. My feet hated them. TOo bad, they were so cute.

I believe what we need is something to protect our feet from the elements and the glass and other sharp stuff on the ground; nothing more.

[Jolt]

I believe what we need is something to protect our feet from the elements and the glass and other sharp stuff on the ground; nothing more.

Exactly!!!

[GLC1968]

I believe what we need is something to protect our feet from the elements and the glass and other sharp stuff on the ground; nothing more.

Isn't that what the Vibram FiveFingers does?

If I want to start running barefoot around our property, I need something to protect my feet from blackberry shoots. Of course, those suckers will sometimes go right through my croc soles, so I doubt that VFF will work. :mad:

[HillSlugger]

One of the things that got me interested in barefoot running was listening to a podcast of an interview with the author of "Born to Run". An excerp (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-painful-truth-trainers-Are-expensive-running-shoes-waste-money.html) from his book claims that wearing running shoes does not decrease the rate of running injuries and that injuries are actually more frequent as the cost of the shoe increases! The thicker the padding the less the foot can feet the running surface and the less it can properly adapt. The result is a weakening of our inherent foot mechanics

Before I started running I went to a reputable running store and after doing their stuff they put me into motion control shoes because I over pronate. As I started running I experience bad ankle pain that had me seeking a podiatrist. By the time I finally got in to see him the pain was reducing but he got me into custom orthotics. I admit that I no longer have ankle pain, but I now find that I need MORE support in my everyday shoes! When I started running I was definitely a midfoot striker but I find myself moving towards heel striking. I believe the idea that the motion control shoes and the orthotics are making my feet weaker. I think if I had just waited it out a little longer I would have been fine without the orthotics.

I've already been going around the house more in bare feet and I'm gonna be checking out the VFF's when they arrive today but I'm not sure how soon I'll try running in them. I've just also started thinking that maybe I should remove the orthotics and go back to running without them. I'm just not sure how to work the transition back to "normal" feet.

[Biciclista]

good luck mdhillslug
remember there are muscles that need to be strengthened, so take it slowly.

[HillSlugger]

good luck mdhillslug
remember there are muscles that need to be strengthened, so take it slowly.

Yes, I'm keenly aware of this. That why I've started the barefooting around the house and why I intend to start just walking around with the VFFs. I'm thinking that transitioning out of the insoles is also a step in the right direction (pun intended).

[HillSlugger]

My VFF's came!

I ordered the classics and the KSOs in two sizes each. I've been wanding about the house in the classics since around 6pm. Takes some getting used to but I like them so far.

[JH-NV]

I'm curious as to the arches of the majority of the women posting here who wear the VFF.
Also, I feel discouraged when I go barefoot outside, because it really is painful. I feel like I'm encouraging my feet to be Pre-diabetic! (normal glucose)
I will keep reading the posts to see everyone's results. And, I will suck it up outside in the yard and force myself to walk on gravel, etc.

[Jolt]

I'm curious as to the arches of the majority of the women posting here who wear the VFF.
Also, I feel discouraged when I go barefoot outside, because it really is painful. I feel like I'm encouraging my feet to be Pre-diabetic! (normal glucose)
I will keep reading the posts to see everyone's results. And, I will suck it up outside in the yard and force myself to walk on gravel, etc.

To answer your question, I'd say my arches are medium. It will be interesting to see if there's the whole range with those of us using the VFF.

[mayanorange]

These are pretty cool. I had the pleasure of hearing Dr Lieberman from Harvard give a fascinating speech at ACSM last week on the evolution of humans as endurance runners and he's very interested in the effects of shoes on our feet- looks like he's recruiting FF wearers in addition to his barefooters. Between him and Hugh Herr, who's working on understanding feet to create prosthetics and exoskeletons (assisting impairments), I think we're going to see some huge changes in the understanding of what our feet can do and how much our current shoes inhibit them. Maybe someday I'll be lucky enough to work with one of them- they're truly the rockstars of biomechanics.

[Jolt]

Mayanorange, I heard about Lieberman's barefoot/VFF study and it sounds really interesting. Hopefully things like this will improve the understanding of what constitutes good biomechanics and decrease the ridiculous injury rate among runners. I would have liked to participate in his study but am not eligible b/c I haven't been running in VFFs long enough and my IT band injury was too recent.

[OakLeaf]

Do any of you barefooters have Morton's Foot (i.e., the second metatarsal is the longest one)?

I don't have a good sense of whether it's strength, flexibility or bone structure that prevents me from getting my first MTP joint down without pronating my ankles.

[GLC1968]

I'm curious as to the arches of the majority of the women posting here who wear the VFF.
Also, I feel discouraged when I go barefoot outside, because it really is painful. I feel like I'm encouraging my feet to be Pre-diabetic! (normal glucose)
I will keep reading the posts to see everyone's results. And, I will suck it up outside in the yard and force myself to walk on gravel, etc.

I don't have VFF's yet, but I'm thinking about ordering a pair. I am starting out truly barefoot and if I have to, I'll run on the treadmill for the first few short runs (right now, I'm only being barefoot and doing as many chores and gardening that way that I can). I have very, very flat feet.

[Biciclista]

I guess I have Morton's foot. Never been diagnosed but my second toe is the tallest on one foot but not the other. Never thought of it as a problem either!
I have a medium to high arch.

[OakLeaf]

Apparently the toe can be longer even though the second metatarsal is shorter than the first. When you scrunch your toes so that the heads of the foot bones stick out, is the second one still longer? Do you have trouble getting the pad of your foot, behind your big toe, on the ground without pronating your ankles?

Apparently it's a very common variation, but it causes all sorts of problems.

[Biciclista]

You're referring to lifting the toes into the air? yeah, the balls of my feet can sit on the ground with my toes sticking up in the air without pronating.
(I think I understand what you are saying?)

[OakLeaf]

no... I think it's easier if I explain what happens with my feet.

The "four corners of my feet" that naturally contact the ground are the two corners of my heel, the head of my fifth metatarsal, and the head of my SECOND metatarsal, not the first. Because the big toe is so important for balance, my ankle rolls inward to get the big toe onto the ground. If I place my ankles in neutral, then the pad of my first metatarsal is not bearing weight.

There's the problem. It's not just "overpronation" per se, it's all the imbalances in the calf and foot muscles that my body does to try to compensate.

I think what I might try (street shoes first) is ditching the orthotics and only padding the head of the first metatarsal, as the trigger point book suggests. That should help strengthen my feet because I'd be using my muscles, not arch supports, to support my arches; but I'd be using the muscles that ought to be supporting them, not trying to pull them sideways with the peroneus, etc.

[Selkie]

I've thought about getting a pair of Vibrams after hearing rave reviews from several folks at work. However, I am in the early stages of bunion development in both feet and I over pronate. A couple years ago, I ended up with a persistent bout with achilles tendonitis after wearing Nike Free sneakers (I didn't run in them, I was wearing them on walks). I, therefore, am leery of trying anything that might result in a foot/heel issue.

[canonsue]

I just bought a pair of Fivefingers KSOs. I am going to give it a try. One thing, is that when I measured my feet using the method on the five fingers website, I was two sizes away from what I really needed after trying several pairs on.

So if you do have a store you can go to, then that is much better. I had to travel an hour to a store that carried them. Strange that no one in Denver carried them, I had to go to Loveland or Boulder.

I experience foot pain whenever I walk or run consistently. So now that I am down 17 lbs, I wanted to start walking first and then get back into light jogging.

-Sue

[kelownagirl]

Has anyone read Born to Run? I have it on reserve. I believe it has a chapter about barefoot running.

[Jolt]

Has anyone read Born to Run? I have it on reserve. I believe it has a chapter about barefoot running.

I've read it--highly recommended! I got a copy from Amazon as soon as it came out. It does talk quite a bit about barefoot/minimalist shoe running. Really quite inspiring as far as the possibility of running a lot without getting injured.

[ginny]

VFF KSO: okay, girls... since I saw this thread this morning, I have been looking at these shoes. I have been running nearly every day since I was 13 - I am 34 now. In the past couple of years, age or gravity or something has snuck up on me, and I have really noticed things coaches have been telling me my whole life. That is, one leg is a fair bit longer than the other. I (apparently) compensate in my pelvis. I also pronate fairly severely. I did, however live barefoot the entire time I lived aboard a sailboat. I don't remember any aches or pains then (I was a fair bit younger though). I enjoy running long distance in the high country... so, whaddya think? Should I give these shoes a try? I mean, if I can't run in them, at least I can wear them around and about... I hear they stink (as do all cool shoes ... chacos), anyone have a solution for this? I work in a lab. It is feasible that I could wear them to work if I can control the stink... What do you think about this leg length issue? About the pronation? I think I'll buy them anyway - if I can't run terribly long distance in them, at least I can pretend I live aboard again :rolleyes:

[Jolt]

VFF KSO: okay, girls... since I saw this thread this morning, I have been looking at these shoes. I have been running nearly every day since I was 13 - I am 34 now. In the past couple of years, age or gravity or something has snuck up on me, and I have really noticed things coaches have been telling me my whole life. That is, one leg is a fair bit longer than the other. I (apparently) compensate in my pelvis. I also pronate fairly severely. I did, however live barefoot the entire time I lived aboard a sailboat. I don't remember any aches or pains then (I was a fair bit younger though). I enjoy running long distance in the high country... so, whaddya think? Should I give these shoes a try? I mean, if I can't run in them, at least I can wear them around and about... I hear they stink (as do all cool shoes ... chacos), anyone have a solution for this? I work in a lab. It is feasible that I could wear them to work if I can control the stink... What do you think about this leg length issue? About the pronation? I think I'll buy them anyway - if I can't run terribly long distance in them, at least I can pretend I live aboard again :rolleyes:

As far as the leg length issue, it seems to me that it could be compensated for by how much you bend your knees, but I'm not an expert on that type of issue--maybe someone with a background in PT etc. could speak to this. The pronation, from what I understand, tends to be less of an issue when barefoot or in minimal shoes because of the difference in how your foot contacts the ground (as was said earlier in the thread, heel-first running barefoot would be really unpleasant). The VFFs certainly can stink after wearing them for a while, but they can be washed in the washing machine and air-dried. Another thing that is helpful for getting rid of the "funk" is soaking them overnight in a vinegar/water solution and then rinsing thoroughly. Wearing Injinji socks/toe socks also helps keep it from getting bad as quickly.

[ginny]

thanks for the vinegar idea... I will also look up those socks. I wonder how in tarnation I will use these shoes in the winter here... alas, a river I will cross in a few months. I bought the shoes :D I will keep you all updated. I had a sneaking suspicion part of my issues in my old age have to do with all the orthotics/shoes etc I am wearing these days... well, we will see

[GLC1968]

So, I spent a good deal of my weekend working around the home. I was barefoot and on my feet for *most* of it. Funny thing I noticed? My heels started to hurt long before my forefoot did. I think I've now trained my feet to hit heel first and it hurts when I am not wearing shoes. I think that once I start running, that'll change because I know that I run more on the balls of my feet.

Another funny thing I noticed? I spent a LOT of my time in the kitchen (making & canning strawberry jam - yum!) and for the first time since we moved in, my back never hurt. Usually, extended time in this kitchen makes my back hurt something awful (I haven't figured out why). Maybe without shoes, the counter is a better height for me? What ever it is, I'm THRILLED about it.

Other than the achy heel, my feet felt fine. I think it's time to start jogging around the yard a little each day. If I can't do that safely, then I'll do it on the treadmill until I can swing the cash for some VFF's. :)

[wavedancer]

I am going to be doing a sprint triathlon in July that includes a 3.1 mile run. If I continue to feel as good as I have running in the VFFs I would like to use them in the tri. Has anyone done this? I don't think I will be ready to run totally barefoot by then. The main issue will be getting the little buggers on quickly. It is still a little quirky getting all the toes into their right little spaces. Any helpful hints?

[HillSlugger]

I am going to be doing a sprint triathlon in July that includes a 3.1 mile run. If I continue to feel as good as I have running in the VFFs I would like to use them in the tri. Has anyone done this? I don't think I will be ready to run totally barefoot by then. The main issue will be getting the little buggers on quickly. It is still a little quirky getting all the toes into their right little spaces. Any helpful hints?

I've been wondering about this, too, but don't have anything to offer. Do you bike without socks?

[Jolt]

I am going to be doing a sprint triathlon in July that includes a 3.1 mile run. If I continue to feel as good as I have running in the VFFs I would like to use them in the tri. Has anyone done this? I don't think I will be ready to run totally barefoot by then. The main issue will be getting the little buggers on quickly. It is still a little quirky getting all the toes into their right little spaces. Any helpful hints?

If you think about it, does it really take any longer to put on VFFs than it does to put on running shoes and tie shoelaces? For me at least there doesn't seem to be much difference at all.

[wavedancer]

If you think about it, does it really take any longer to put on VFFs than it does to put on running shoes and tie shoelaces? For me at least there doesn't seem to be much difference at all.

I have been using elastic Yanks on my running shoes, so I just pull them on. I sometimes don't get my toes lined up just right and have to do some readjusting with the VFFs. In the long run, at my level, it probably will not make a lot of difference. Although, in my first race this year I missed first place in my age group (60-64) by just 6 seconds!

MDHillSlug: I have never biked without socks...I think it is quicker to put on my low-cut smart wools than to try to jam my wet feet into my cycling shoes...but maybe not.

[HillSlugger]

I have been using elastic Yanks on my running shoes, so I just pull them on. I sometimes don't get my toes lined up just right and have to do some readjusting with the VFFs. In the long run, at my level, it probably will not make a lot of difference. Although, in my first race this year I missed first place in my age group (60-64) by just 6 seconds!

MDHillSlug: I have never biked without socks...I think it is quicker to put on my low-cut smart wools than to try to jam my wet feet into my cycling shoes...but maybe not.

I bike and run in socks, too. I was just thinking about having to put on the socks for the bike and then take them back off to put on the VFFs.

I've been wearing my VFFs around the house (an a few times outside) but haven't tried running in them yet. I'm thinking of trying them on the HS track the first time. Probably before I get to that I want to stop using the custom orthotics in my running shoes.

[ginny]

I received my VFF KSOs ... last Friday. I thought they were too small. My pinkie toe wasn't happy being separated from my other toes. I have been wearing them every other day, and the last time I wore them (Monday), I consciously relaxed my feet, and... wha la, they fit :) My pinkie toe didn't have a problem. I was able to run and jump and play in them... it was fun. The next day I noticed the muscles in my lower calves were a bit sore - probably because I have been running in big wedge running shoes forever... but I'm taking it slowly and it's going well. The dogs have fun chasing me around grassy fields for now too... :rolleyes:

[Jolt]

I received my VFF KSOs ... last Friday. I thought they were too small. My pinkie toe wasn't happy being separated from my other toes. I have been wearing them every other day, and the last time I wore them (Monday), I consciously relaxed my feet, and... wha la, they fit :) My pinkie toe didn't have a problem. I was able to run and jump and play in them... it was fun. The next day I noticed the muscles in my lower calves were a bit sore - probably because I have been running in big wedge running shoes forever... but I'm taking it slowly and it's going well. The dogs have fun chasing me around grassy fields for now too... :rolleyes:

Cool! As for the sore calf muscles, that's totally normal. I can remember my calves hurting for the first week of running in the VFFs. Do make sure you're not pushing off too much from your toes--that overworks the calf muscles and could lead to Achilles issues. Your propulsion should come mainly from your hip muscles with some contribution from the "elastic recoil" of the feet/calves (this is what I'm learning from Evolution Running, which I just started using this week and I'm liking it a lot so far).

[HillSlugger]

Cool! As for the sore calf muscles, that's totally normal. I can remember my calves hurting for the first week of running in the VFFs. Do make sure you're not pushing off too much from your toes--that overworks the calf muscles and could lead to Achilles issues. Your propulsion should come mainly from your hip muscles with some contribution from the "elastic recoil" of the feet/calves (this is what I'm learning from Evolution Running, which I just started using this week and I'm liking it a lot so far).

What is Evolution Running?

[Jolt]

What is Evolution Running?

It's a DVD that teaches efficient running technique, in a similar vein with Pose and Chi Running. The basic premise is that the reason the African runners are so good is because they are efficient due to having grown up running barefoot, and that we can use the same techniques to improve efficiency and reduce injuries. The proper form is broken down into all its components, with excellent demonstrations and drills to reinforce each. They don't suggest running barefoot but I think they should ;). I decided to go with this over Pose or Chi Running because it seemed more straightforward than these others and it draws its technique pointers from a known group of efficient runners, who got that way by running barefoot, which is how our bodies are designed to function.

[wavedancer]

I'm bummed. I was feeling really good with my initial 3-4 runs with VFFs. I did a 2-mile trail run about 10 days ago that felt really good while I was doing it, but ever since then I have had some pain across the top of my foot when walking or running barefoot. I rested for a week without doing any runs and tried again 2 days ago. I still had some pain, but not enough that I felt I had to stop. It's still sore today, but better while waering shoes. I'm wondering if I should try running in shoes for awhile, or maybe try taping my foot to give it a little support. Poo...I can't seem to get to a period longer than a few weeks of runnig without some sort of injury :(

[ginny]

just FYI everyone, I found those evolution videos on line: http://www.5min.com/Video/An-Introduction-to-Evolution-Running-4-29683892 (that's for the 4th clip...) anyway, I haven't watched them all yet; I do not know if they are all there, but it at least gives a good idea of whether you want to spring for the DVD or not...
G

[HillSlugger]

just FYI everyone, I found those evolution videos on line: http://www.5min.com/Video/An-Introduction-to-Evolution-Running-4-29683892 (that's for the 4th clip...) anyway, I haven't watched them all yet; I do not know if they are all there, but it at least gives a good idea of whether you want to spring for the DVD or not...
G

I just watched the 5 videos. Looks interesting. How easy is it to take what you see/learn in the DVD and apply it to your running?

[meridian]

For anyone interested in barefoot running, there is a wonderfully supportive and informative barefoot runners forum on runnersworld.com which has been invaluable to me as a newly converted barefoot/minimalist runner. I encourage you to check it out: Barefoot Running Forum (http://www.runnersworld.com/community/forums/index.jsp?plckForumPage=Forum&plckForumId=Cat%3aRunner+CommunitiesForum%3a887b8e6c-ecb8-4ae7-a3ef-0f12bf559034)

[wavedancer]

For anyone interested in barefoot running, there is a wonderfully supportive and informative barefoot runners forum on runnersworld.com which has been invaluable to me as a newly converted barefoot/minimalist runner. I encourage you to check it out: Barefoot Running Forum (http://www.runnersworld.com/community/forums/index.jsp?plckForumPage=Forum&plckForumId=Cat%3aRunner+CommunitiesForum%3a887b8e6c-ecb8-4ae7-a3ef-0f12bf559034)

Thanks for the link! It helped answer many of my questions/concerns. I think I tried to do too much as a new runner and new barefoot/VFF runner at the start. I have had to back off and let some tendons and ligaments in my feet heal up and get used to what I am asking them to do. I have been having some pain that I didn't experience until after doing 3-4 runs in the Vffs. I am now doing some of my runs in my supportive shoes and shorter runs in the VFFs. I have only done a couple of short runs on grass and on the beach totally barefoot. I do remember the ease and joy I felt when I first ran unshod, though, and will get back there. I just need to go a little more slowly...

[ginny]

I have really noticed it low in my calves - I guess from not having my heels elevated running in the VFF's. I have been taking it really slowly, but it's fun! I feel like bigfoot when i see my 'feet prints' on the dirt trails. I would love to hear other runners when they see the feet prints :D

[veghead]

Hi everyone. I've been barefooting for 2 1/2 weeks now and I thought I'd share my experiences/observations in case it can help anyone.

I initially became interested in BFR because in the past 3 years that I've been running I've suffered one injury after another - plantars fascitis, shin splints, achilles tendonitis, and finally posterior tibial tendonitis (this one has been the worst!). With the PTT, I could barely run at all without screaming pain behind my ankle, and I basically had to take 2 full weeks off before it stopped hurting even when I was walking. At that point I decided things couldn't get worse and that it was time to try BFR.

I started off around 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile at a time and have built up to a 3 miler this week. So far it is absolutely AWESOME! None of my trouble spots have bugged me during this time and running has been an absolute blast. My calves have been tight, but I'll take tightness any day over chronic injuries! I've been alternating completely barefeet with my VFF sprints (love them!).

I also have to 2nd the recommendation for Born to Run. It is one of the best books I have ever read and just a fabulous story.

[kacie tri-ing]

Hello! I am reviving this thread! Could I get updates on how you are all doing with this? I am dying to know...I am thinking about putting my "toes in the water" (haha!) of barefooting, and I would love to hear how this has been going for all of you through the fall!

[HillSlugger]

Hello! I am reviving this thread! Could I get updates on how you are all doing with this? I am dying to know...I am thinking about putting my "toes in the water" (haha!) of barefooting, and I would love to hear how this has been going for all of you through the fall!

I've been wondering this myself.

I've put any thoughts of barefooting (in VFFs) for a while due to an Achilles injury I sustained while wearing my normal motion control shoes but I'm still working on forefoot running.

[Becky]

I posted this in this week's running thread, but I'll add it here too:

I've been experimenting with some barefoot running on the treadmill lately. This is in addition to my attempt to learn Chi Running. I started with just a couple of minutes to allow my body to get used to the new workout. Now I'm up to 0.75 miles at a time.

I'm still getting little hot spots on the balls of my feet, which I attribute to soft skin that needs to toughen up, and some soreness in my calves and ankles. However, I'm amazed that I have a lot less hip and knee pain! And it's an immediate decrease- I take my shoes off and my IT band and knee feel better almost instantly.

I can't explain what I'm doing differently while barefoot, compared to shod running, but it's been enough to convince me to buy a pair of VFFs when they come back in stock.

[wavedancer]

I was very enthusiastic about barefoot and VFF running in the late spring and early summer. So enthusiastic that I started doing a bit too much too soon ("TMTS" on the barefoot running forums). I was also trying to get my mileage up a bit as a new runner so I could do some 5K runs in some sprint tri's over the summer. The result was some new foot pain that I had not experienced as a shod runner. I had to cut way back on my running in general and took a complete break from it for about 4 weeks after my last tri in September.

I waited until the tendinitis in my foot (PTT) was barely noticeable before starting out in the VFFs again. This time I have taken it very slowly. Started with no more than 1/4 mile at a time, and have gradually gotten backup to being able to do 3+ miles. I did a 5K on Thanksgiving in the VFFs and felt great! Got a few curious comments and questions from other runners, and piqued the interest of at least a couple of them.

The PTT is not 100% healed, and I can feel some discomfort after running. I have been taping it to give some support when I am on my feet all day, but it doesn't seem to be giving me too much grief so far. I know it is important to really let it heal, or it can become a chronic problem.

The hip pain that I was experiencing when running in my"supportive shoes" has not been a problem at all. I think that by artificially supporting the foot, you just transfer the strain farther up.

It is starting to get cold here, and my VFFs are not giving me quite enough warmth, even with some toe socks. I have just ordered a pair of Feelmax Niese from Barefoot Ted (http://barefootted.com/2009/01/running-in-seattle-with-feelmax-shoes.html). They are some minimalist shoes from Finland that should provide a little more warmth, especially with regular Smartwool socks. I tried using some old water shoes, but they soles were not flexible enough and I felt like a jogging duck! I hope I can continue to run with the FeelMax shoes through the winter. I haven't done any treadmill running...don't really want to :rolleyes:

I am committed to staying with the barefoot/minimalist running. I find it gives me much more joy. I just need to be mindful and listen to my body so I don't keep injuring myself.

[Urlea]

Wave- Be sure to keep us updated on the feelmax shoes! I am more than a little bit curious. Which style did you get?

I have been running 40-50% of my runs in vffs the last few months, but now that the snow has fallen I will not be able to continue that throughout the winter. Like you, dreadmills are not for me. I run outside even when it's -20f Pretty sure the VFF Flow w/ injinjis wont be tolerable for that though, :(

Anywho, glad you are enjoying pain free running!

[indigoiis]

Ran for the 4th time in my VFFs today. I went out in the wet, 40 degreeish weather thinking it would be a good experiment. I love running in them so much, I wanted to see how they did with puddles etc.

I have cut socks leaving a little scrap of fiber between my big toe and the rest of my toes. These work to keep the main part of my foot warm.

Toe socks don't work for me because I have reeeeeally short toes.

Anyhow. So, I banged out 6 miles, 6 HILLY miles mind you, like they were nothing. 6 miles on a route that usually kicks my butt. In my VFFs, in the rain, and they got wet, and my feet got wet, but it is such a cool way to run. And I do not have the pain in my knee I've been getting these days, so that's good. I love these shoes. Thanks for the inspiration to go out and get them because they are so worth it.

[wavedancer]

I got the Feelmax Niesa's yesterday and took them out for my morning run today. 27 degrees, smartwool socks, toasty toes!! They are super comfortable with probably a thinner sole than the VFFs, but it is very rugged and supple. I am so excited to have some minimalist shoes that I should be able to use through the winter. They are even cute enough to wear as casual shoes in addition to running shoes.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B002QFM7QW/sr=8-1-catcorr/qid=1260327875/ref=dp_otherviews_1?ie=UTF8&s=shoes&img=1&qid=1260327875&sr=8-1-catcorr

[Urlea]

Wave- Woohoo!! I might need to get a pair of those. Which style did you get?

(guess it would help if I read the post title, eh?)

[Jolt]

My cold-weather minimal shoe solution is the Teva Proton water shoes with thick wool socks. So far, this seems to be working pretty well--not quite the same as VFFs, but much warmer and still not a clunky shoe. I can also put Stabilicers Sport over them if necessary for traction, and can even use short gaiters with them to keep out snow. I wonder how those Feelmax shoes are--does any store in the area carry them where one could try them on?

[wavedancer]

Jolt: I don't know of any retail stores in the US that are carrying the Feelmax shoes. They have just become available in the US this year. There are a couple of US online stores that have them. One is an oddly milataristic-looking site: Extreme Outfitters (http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/feelmaxniesa.aspx)

I got them from directly from Barefoot Ted (http://barefootted.com/labels/feelmax.html), but now he seems to just link to the other site.

You can get them also from Gifts From Finland (https://www.giftsfromfinland.com/search-results.php). They also have an Amazon storefront.

If I hadn't found these, I probably would have gone with my old neoprene kayaking booties. I figure I can also use these in the spring or summer for triathlons, although I would like to be able to run truly barefoot next summer :)

[indigoiis]

Okay call me cheap, but I am seriously looking at a pair of $15 Old Navy Ugg style boots with cheap flip-flop foam bottoms, to wear over a pair of thick alpaca boot socks.

It can't hurt to try, I guess. It will be like running in socks more than VFFs.

[nscrbug]

Has anyone here tried treadmill running with the VFF's? I'm interested in trying them, but I don't do cold-weather running due to my asthma. All of my running during the winter months, is done on the gym treadmills. I'm just wondering if I would reap the same benefits using them on a TM vs. outdoor running? I understand the need to build up slowly with them...so what would be an ideal amount of time/mileage for my first run in them? I typically run shod, for about 30-40 minutes at a 5.7 - 6.0mph pace...so, at a 10+ minute per mile pace, I'm pretty slow. My lower back simply cannot handle a higher running pace...so this is the range at where I stay for all of my runs.

Linda

[twin]

I am giving running a shot with a tiny bit of barefoot and a smaller amount with KSO vibrams and I hope it works. I really love the idea of this.

[Tri Girl]

I bought the VFF sprint shoes almost 2 weeks ago. I have no arch- I have totally flat feet and I overpronate severely. I've been running in motion control shoes with custom orthotics for 5 years now. I've had so many knee and ITB issues since starting to run that I've decided it's time to try barefooting it to see, if in fact, it's the shoes that are making me injured.

I've worn them to work and walking around (to get used to them slowly), but I haven't yet run in them. I'm going to try some running tomorrow.

I LOVE the VFF's. I can tighten the strap across the arch to make it more supportive in my arch when I need it. They are GREAT!!:)

[HillSlugger]

I bought the VFF sprint shoes almost 2 weeks ago. I have no arch- I have totally flat feet and I overpronate severely. I've been running in motion control shoes with custom orthotics for 5 years now. I've had so many knee and ITB issues since starting to run that I've decided it's time to try barefooting it to see, if in fact, it's the shoes that are making me injured.

I've worn them to work and walking around (to get used to them slowly), but I haven't yet run in them. I'm going to try some running tomorrow.

I LOVE the VFF's. I can tighten the strap across the arch to make it more supportive in my arch when I need it. They are GREAT!!:)
Where do you work that you can wear VFF's there?

I'm trying to figure out how to get from motion control + custom orthotics to VFF's without injuring myself.

[nscrbug]

Where do you work that you can wear VFF's there?

I'm trying to figure out how to get from motion control + custom orthotics to VFF's without injuring myself.

I'm sort of in the same boat as you. I really want to try VFF's, but I'm a bit hesitant given my past history with ongoing foot issues. I'm currently wearing (and have always worn) stability shoes with an OTC heat-moldable insert. I have a set of custom orthotics that my podiatrist had made for me, but after 3 adjustments to them, I still cannot comfortably wear them while running. So I've pretty much given up on them and they are now $600 dust-collectors. :mad:

Two years ago, I had a bad case of PF/heel spur in my left foot...but it seems to be under control at the moment and is not causing any pain now. However, I do have a toe-numbing/tingly issue on my right foot which generally flares up anytime I run over 3 miles. I'm not sure if it's a friction/swelling issue, a nerve issue, or what...but it's really annoying and frustrating...and I've tried dozens of different running shoes in hopes of resolving this problem with no success so far. I would love to try a minimalist shoe like the VFF's, but fear that I will still have the toe pain issue. Any ideas on how I could go about making the transition a little easier and less painful?

[KnottedYet]

Posture! Posture! Posture!

I'd say that 95% of the patients I see for "pronation" are a posture problem, and at most maybe 5% are a structural problem.

To find your good foot posture, it really helps to have someone work with you who knows what makes the lower extremity pronate and how to un-pronate it. It's not just the foot, it's everything from the hip down which pronates.

For starters, stand in front of your mirror in your underwear. (or a pair of shorts if you are shy) Stand like you normally stand. Note your hips: do they look wide? Note your knees: do they look narrow and bent backwards? Are your kneecaps looking kind of cross-eyed? Are your ankles wider than your knees? (like Betty Boop) Is your inside ankle-bone hanging out over empty space? Is your arch flattish? Are you standing duck-footed?

Those are all subtle hints that you are pronating (which is the entire leg, remember!)

How to unpronate: straighten your feet. Pull your lower belly flat. Tuck your tailbone under (don't stick your @$$ out like Betty Boop). Squeeze your buns together a little. Unlock your knees. Quick! Look at your feet! Where is your ankle and how is your arch? If the arch has returned and your inside ankle bone is now over the inside of your foot instead of outer space, this is what caused your pronation - GIRL HIPS. If the foot still looks sloppy and the ankle is still hanging to the inside of the foot, try pushing the outer edge of your foot into the ground. You may have a combination of sloppy girl hips and sloppy-foot-desperately-trying-to-clutch-at-the-ground.

Whatever you did to fix your foot posture, work on making that your habit. Usually you can play with it all in front of the mirror and figure out which one thing makes the rest of it line up. (in my case tucking my butt back where it belongs, instead of sticking it out like a baboon in heat which flops my belly flab out over my waistband and locks my knees and pronates my feet)

If you can't do anything with your muscles to even change your foot posture the slightest bit, then you need some custom orthotics and structural help.

Get your foot posture up and running, and barefoot running will go much easier. (I prescribe barefoot running to help teach posture, as well.)

[KnottedYet]

However, I do have a toe-numbing/tingly issue on my right foot which generally flares up anytime I run over 3 miles. I'm not sure if it's a friction/swelling issue, a nerve issue, or what...but it's really annoying and frustrating...and I've tried dozens of different running shoes in hopes of resolving this problem with no success so far. I would love to try a minimalist shoe like the VFF's, but fear that I will still have the toe pain issue. Any ideas on how I could go about making the transition a little easier and less painful?

Take off your right shoe and sock. Look at the sole of your right foot. Look at the ball of your right foot. Is there a nice callus (or thick skin) under the ball of your big toe? There should be.

Is there a callus or thick skin under the ball of your pinky toe? There should be.

Is there a callus or thick skin under the ball of any other toe? NOT such a good thing. From what you describe I expect there is one under the ball of the second (index) toe or the one next to it. Or maybe between the ball of the big toe and the index toe.

If there is a callus or thick skin, you probably have a dropped met head which is causing compression on one of the nerves that runs through the ball of the foot.

It's not a big deal, it's pretty easy to correct with exercises, and it often goes along with a postural pronation issue.

Let me know if you need the exercises.

(I'd get them rolling before starting the barefoot running, so the running can help you get the metatarsal arch back up to strength)

[Blueberry]

Let me know if you need the exercises.

I think I need them:) All sorts of alarm bells went off for me when I read this - I think this explains why I have a very tough callous that goes from the callous under my big toe to by 4th toe. I've noted it before, and noted pain in bike shoes, but hadn't investigated much further. Barefoot doesn't hurt, interestingly. Of course, I'm only walking. I have a bit much weight to want to subject my knees to running until I can lose a little - or a lot (until then, spinning and walking as much as possible, plus some strength training).

I swear you should write a book - or offer a weekend class or something. Shoot - I'd fly to Seattle for one:)

CA

[OakLeaf]

I'd fly to Seattle for one:)

CA

Me too!

[Red Rock]

After reading the last series of comments, I thought I would at least ask. I have bunions on both feet. Since I have those, it has made me hesitant about wearing these shoes, let alone run in them.

Does anyone else have anything like this and using the VFF's? I used to walk around my house as a kid without shoes but have not since becoming an adult. My calves will probably kill me when I first start out.

Comments? Concerns?

Thank you,
Red Rock

[limewave]

After reading the last series of comments, I thought I would at least ask. I have bunions on both feet. Since I have those, it has made me hesitant about wearing these shoes, let alone run in them.

I am curious about this too. I used to have bunions on both my feet. I had a bilateral bunionectomy. Now I have two screws in each foot. I'm really hesitant to try barefoot running . . . And maybe I don't need to, I haven't suffered running injuries in the past other than a cyst during my marathon training that went away after a week off. And last summer I got plantar fasciitis, but that was after a long Adventure Race.

Barefoot running for people with bunions???

[nscrbug]

Take off your right shoe and sock. Look at the sole of your right foot. Look at the ball of your right foot. Is there a nice callus (or thick skin) under the ball of your big toe? There should be.

Is there a callus or thick skin under the ball of your pinky toe? There should be.

Is there a callus or thick skin under the ball of any other toe? NOT such a good thing. From what you describe I expect there is one under the ball of the second (index) toe or the one next to it. Or maybe between the ball of the big toe and the index toe.

If there is a callus or thick skin, you probably have a dropped met head which is causing compression on one of the nerves that runs through the ball of the foot.

It's not a big deal, it's pretty easy to correct with exercises, and it often goes along with a postural pronation issue.

Let me know if you need the exercises.

(I'd get them rolling before starting the barefoot running, so the running can help you get the metatarsal arch back up to strength)

Ok, so I just checked the bottom of my right foot. I do have some thick skin under the big toe and pinky, just like you said I would. But I only found a very tiny spot of thick skin (I'm talking like the size of a rice grain) under the 2nd toe...and nothing under the rest. I do religiously moisturize my feet, though...sometimes 2-3x per day...so perhaps that is why I'm not finding a lot of calloused skin. Even under the big & pinky toes, what thick skin there is...it isn't very much at all. I really had to feel around to find it.

So...based on this, does this still mean that I might have a dropped met head? Or could this possibly be something entirely different...like a neuroma, perhaps? Although I don't feel a lump or anything unusual underneath or between my 3rd & 4th toes...which are the 2 affected toes. My former podiatrist (he moved to another state) also indicated that he did not feel anything unusual and didn't think it was a neuroma...yet he still suggested using a metatarsal pad in my shoes (which I've been doing). So I'm very confused and frustrated....

Linda

[tulip]

I don't do much running and my feet are fine, but I'm finding this all very interesting from an observer standpoint.

ncsrbug, it sounds to me (not knowing much) that podiatrists tend to only look at the feet, while the problem might really be further up. Afterall, the footbone is connected to the anklebone, etc. Maybe you could find a physical therapist or similar professional who looks at the whole package. Again, I don't know much, but it just seems like common sense, particularly given Knott's excellent discourse on the topic.

[Tri Girl]

Where do you work that you can wear VFF's there?

I'm trying to figure out how to get from motion control + custom orthotics to VFF's without injuring myself.

I teach. I've worn them for 2 weeks without any "no no" from my principal. The kids LOVE them and think they are too funny. I figure they are no uglier than the Ugg boots that teachers wear, or the crocs or open toed sandals.
When I'm told I can't wear them anymore I won't. Until then, I'll wear them.

I think they've helped my posture. I've noticed it lately that I'm walking more with my shoulders back and standing taller. Don't know if it's the VFF's or not, but I like it.

I ran .5 mile with the VFF's today, then finished the 3 mile run with my running shoes & orthotics. I want to work up very slowly so I don't have any issues. I've been doing lots of arch stretching and calf stretches.
Crossing fingers this helps all my feet/knee/ITB problems...

[KnottedYet]

Ok, so I just checked the bottom of my right foot. I do have some thick skin under the big toe and pinky, just like you said I would. But I only found a very tiny spot of thick skin (I'm talking like the size of a rice grain) under the 2nd toe...and nothing under the rest. I do religiously moisturize my feet, though...sometimes 2-3x per day...so perhaps that is why I'm not finding a lot of calloused skin. Even under the big & pinky toes, what thick skin there is...it isn't very much at all. I really had to feel around to find it.

So...based on this, does this still mean that I might have a dropped met head? Or could this possibly be something entirely different...like a neuroma, perhaps? Although I don't feel a lump or anything unusual underneath or between my 3rd & 4th toes...which are the 2 affected toes. My former podiatrist (he moved to another state) also indicated that he did not feel anything unusual and didn't think it was a neuroma...yet he still suggested using a metatarsal pad in my shoes (which I've been doing). So I'm very confused and frustrated....

Linda

Your podiatrist and I are on the same page.

Yes, that "grain of rice" is a little callus from a dropped met head. Obviously it's not a bad one: you don't have issues until you've been running more than 3 miles. So I wouldn't expect a sucker the size of your thumb (like mine was, and my toes were miserable sad creatures nearly all the time).

The dropped met head just means your metatarsal arch is sloppy. The muscles in there are either weak, or on vacation. You can help cue the arch by putting in a metatarsal button (arch support) that goes well behind the ball of your foot. (if you have a met cushion *under* the ball of your foot, I beg you to take it out for a couple weeks and see what happens)

When the metatarsal arch is squishing down, nerves that run between the "knuckles" of your toes get squished, too. You can have neurogenic pain from compressed nerves that feels exactly like a neuroma WITHOUT having a neuroma. You can have a functional problem, not a structural (fat lumpy irritated globby nerve body) problem, and still have similar sensations. (cyclists' "Hot foot" is a classic functional nerve compression problem)

The nerve getting squished may not necessarily be running along the dropped met head. The whole neighborhood is getting squished, it's just a matter of who squeaks first.

Somewhere around here is a detailed set of exercises I wrote up for a dropped met head. I think it was in a Morton's Foot thread. I'll go find it. ETA: here it is http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showpost.php?p=468782&postcount=40

And yes, dropped met heads sometimes go along with pronation posture issues, but they don't really fix themselves without some direct attention to the foot itself.

[KnottedYet]

Barefoot vs. VFF

VFF are shoes. In fact, they are shoes with the same thickness of sole and lack of support structure as the training and racing flats we wore back in the 70's. Nothing new there. (what is new is the toes, which I'll get into later) We ran looong distances and fast races in shoes very similar to VFF and Newtons, etc.

Big wedge heels and complex support structures have been the fashion for 30 years or so. I think we're seeing a backlash against that now.

Here's my opinion why: it is very hard to run in poor posture in training flats.

(Mind you, I think everything wrong with the universe is due to poor posture.)

Let me start off by throwing a metaphor into the mix.

Pretend we've got a teenager who slouches. Are we immediately going to give him pain drugs and put him in a brace and run tape along his extensor muscles and make him sit in a high-backed ergonomic chair? No, we're gonna yell at him to sit up straight! If he can sit up straight on his own, then we know it's just a sloppy posture problem, and we nag him to change his habits. If we make him sit on a stool in good posture, it's hard work and he can't do it for long, but it's good training. If we put him on a plane for Australia, are we gonna make him sit on a stool? Heck no, we're gonna put him in a nice ergonomic chair! Sitting on a stool in good posture for that long would be agony.

However, if our teenager simply cannot sit up straight on his own are we gonna put him on a stool? No. We're going to give him an ergonomic chair and we're going to investigate why he can't sit himself up straight and we're going to address the problem.

There is a time for the stool, and there's a time for the ergonomic chair.

[KnottedYet]

... continued

Training flats (VFF, Newtons, etc) are the stool, standard modern running shoes are the ergonomic chair.

If you develop bad posture habits, there are modern shoes that will compensate for your bad habits and you can continue running. But bad habits often creep back up on people.

If you can fix your habits voluntarily and monitor yourself, running in training flats is a good way to correct yourself. The training flats won't hide your bad habits from you, you have to face them and deal with them.

Perhaps folks who could have voluntarily corrected themselves were all put into highly structured modern shoes. The shoes hid the problem, but the bad habit got worse and the posture got sloppier. What they needed to do was face the bad habit and fix it. (sit on the stool instead of the ergonomic chair). These are the folks who feel fabulous in training flats (VFF, Newtons, etc.).

But some folks really need the modern shoes. They can't correct themselves, for what ever reason. I wouldn't take their modern shoes away, but I'd work hard to figure out what was going on.

Now, if someone who feels great in training flats puts on a pair of modern shoes, are they being naughty? Heck no! No more than someone who has great posture is naughty for sitting in an ergonomic chair. It's not laziness, either. It's just a tool, not a moral judgement.

[KnottedYet]

Barefoot.

When you are barefoot, there is no-where to hide...

I make my foot posture patients work barefoot... a lot. They start by working on standing barefoot in good posture. When they've mastered that, they work on walking around the house barefoot in good foot posture. When they have that under control, I have them jog through their houses barefoot.

I like barefoot. It is an excellent training tool. What you learn while barefoot will still be used while wearing shoes.

When I was in track we were all encouraged to run barefoot drills on the beach or on grassy fields. I think that's still pretty standard, from what I hear. Barefoot is some good stuff, if you are doing it in good posture.

If running barefoot long distances makes someone happy, I ain't stopping 'em. If they do best in training flats, more power to 'em. If they run joyfully in motion control shoes with custom orthotics, hot doggies for finding the right tool for the job. Just like we tell newbie cyclists to "ride your ride", we also need to "run your run."

If one thing isn't working, try something else. Don't be afraid to experiment, you never know what you'll discover!

[KnottedYet]

Toes and Bunions.

(See, I was segue-ing on topic, more or less. Kind of. Maybe.)

Toes are very cool. They do a lot more than we give them credit for. I like to be able to use my toes, which is why I tend to prefer sandals and Birkenstocks. I also looooove Injinji toe socks. VFF are nifty because they are training flats with separate toesies.

Bunions are also very cool, but not in a nice way. They have usually two causes contributing to them: genetics and cramped toes. I like to put bunion patients who can still achieve corrected positioning of the great toe into things like Chaco Z/2 sandals. If I can get someone like that who is willing to try some VFF, I'll be very excited to see what happens. Toes like to be free! Happy toes can lead to less painful bunions. Bring on the toes!

If you've had a bunionectomy, I would suggest asking your podiatrist before you switch into any training flats. For pin placement and retention, you may need to be running in a motion control or stability shoe.

[twin]

I can wear my Vibrams in my classroom and I also have been going barefoot in my room.

[OakLeaf]

Toes are actually the #1 difference I notice between barefoot and shod. Maybe that's just because I'm so wide in the forefoot. When my pinky toes are inline with the 5th metatarsals, everything feels so much better. I can't even do that in sandals. They all pull in.

[moonfroggy]

T
Bunions are also very cool, but not in a nice way. They have usually two causes contributing to them: genetics and cramped toes. I like to put bunion patients who can still achieve corrected positioning of the great toe into things like Chaco Z/2 sandals. If I can get someone like that who is willing to try some VFF, I'll be very excited to see what happens. Toes like to be free! Happy toes can lead to less painful bunions. Bring on the toes!.

so i have small bunions but i have spent the majority of my life barefoot and have always avoided shoes that cramp my toes at all. would that mean my bunions are pretty much all genetic? they don't bother me at all unless i get shoes that don't give my toes room.

i have wanted to take up running for a long time and am finding this thread to be very interesting. i ran everyplace barefoot as a kid it ever occurred to me i could take up running now and do it barefoot!

[katluvr]

Very interesting stuff....since my massage therapist has pointed out the way I stand. Often w/ more weight on one leg and shifting my hip out to the side. Claims that has some stuff to do w/ my back muscles and some over development on one side versus the other. I always thought I had good posture since I am short, I stand up straight, don't hunch--even sitting at the computer I do that. However now that I am in my mid 40's having lots of lower back pain (noted when walking slow, strolling type walking). I do core work and know my tight hamstrings play a role. But until recently I never thought of myself as not having good posture. Hmmmmmmm, guess I need to really look into this.

As for barefoot. I spend a lot of time in flip flops or other sandal type shoes..including birks, croc's, etc. I don't really walk barefoot much (even in FL) since I have a real aversion to my feet being dirty. (It really grosses me out). I keep thinking about trying running either barefoot or trying the VFF's. Haven't made the leap yet. But after losing 2 toenails to my 1st marathon AND noting my big toe on my other foot is bruised underneath (please let me keep that toenail)...I really need to find something to run in that is not causing damage to my feet/toes. I did note that my feet hurt more after my long runs than my legs. So how does one's feet feel after that distnace? And as your speed increases in VFFs or barefoot...how does your foot strike not increase. Probably a dumb question. I feel that if I run faster, it equals harder and worry more impact on foot strike. I may just be all wrong about it.

K

[Red Rock]

Thank you Knott, once again to the rescue.

In my case they (the bunions) are genetic. So I guess I should work more on going barefoot to begin with and then work into some VFF's. When I have a job and can afford such things. I was looking at the Chacos the other day thinking how nice it would be to have my great toe facing forward.

Would the VFF's force the great toe forward by design?

Thank you everyone for contributing, I am learning a lot here.

Red Rock

[indigoiis]

If you can't wear VFFs to your work, try ballet shoes. No one's going to tell you not to wear them, and they have a very barefoot-like feel.

[twin]

I have decided to stop running in my running shoes and have been walking with a little running before and after school at about 50 minutes each. So I hope this will eventually increase to more running time with my Vibrams. I also have in really short spurts done a little BF running and walking.

[colby]

Very interesting stuff about posture and pronation - Knot strikes again. ;) I'm going to have to do a little studying on myself there. I have a feeling my heel pain in shoes is some kind of mis-alignment that I'm arguing with and need to un-learn before I am forced to un-learn it with help.

My big toe callous under my right big toe actually hurts when I run on it for significant distance, in shoes and to a much lesser extent in the VFFs, and I'm trying to figure out why - the left one feels fine. Feels like I do have a bit of tough skin formed between my big toe and second toe (have had blisters there, too), and my right big toe callous is MUCH tougher than my left. I've considered seeing a podiatrist or someone that can tell me where the pain in my foot is referring to how I'm running, something in my posture, or something I can/should actually correct ON my feet (soften my over-hardened callous?), or maybe a combination.

I wear my VFFs to work too - I work at a software company (I also bring my dog to work :p). I also wore them to a conference this week representing my company, but software/network security/IT people are kind of a different breed to begin with. ;)

I started running in VFFs fairly "aggressively" I'd say, but I do have a relatively strong base and a fairly consistent volume of running under my belt through the last 9-12 months. If my base mileage was 3 miles in one shot or 10-15 miles a week total spread across many days, I would have started out much lighter. As it is, you really have to listen to your body, and don't forget to stretch! :D

[KnottedYet]

Colby - do you have a running coach or sports med PT who could look at your running form? It sounds like you might be over-striding, and maybe vaulting or whipping on the right foot during toe-off.

(shoes can let you over-stride and get away with it for quite a while)

[GLC1968]

Keep in mind that VFF's don't work for everyone. If your second toe is significantly longer than your big toe, it is apparently hard to get a good fit. And if your pinky toe is really short or low on the outside of your foot, you will again have difficulties. If your pinky toe is just tightly curled under, then the VFFs will help fix that, actually. The problem is that if your toes can't remain in the pockets, running in them would be incredibly painful. I don't know if walking in them would work and if that might help the problem, but it's a pretty expensive experiment, if you ask me. I have no idea how a bunioned (is that a word?) foot would do in VFF's.

Now, if you have basically flipper feet like I do, they'll fit perfectly the first time you slip them on! I also wear mine to work but I do not wear them for running. I'm sticking to true barefoot running and just working my way up very, very slowly. Since I have always had flat feet, problems with shin splints and ball of foot pain, it just blows my mind that even the small amount of barefoot running I've done over the past three months has helped so much. I am 100% foot/lower leg pain free right now! Unreal!

[nscrbug]

Keep in mind that VFF's don't work for everyone. If your second toe is significantly longer than your big toe, it is apparently hard to get a good fit. And if your pinky toe is really short or low on the outside of your foot, you will again have difficulties. If your pinky toe is just tightly curled under, then the VFFs will help fix that, actually. The problem is that if your toes can't remain in the pockets, running in them would be incredibly painful. I don't know if walking in them would work and if that might help the problem, but it's a pretty expensive experiment, if you ask me. I have no idea how a bunioned (is that a word?) foot would do in VFF's.

Now, if you have basically flipper feet like I do, they'll fit perfectly the first time you slip them on! I also wear mine to work but I do not wear them for running. I'm sticking to true barefoot running and just working my way up very, very slowly. Since I have always had flat feet, problems with shin splints and ball of foot pain, it just blows my mind that even the small amount of barefoot running I've done over the past three months has helped so much. I am 100% foot/lower leg pain free right now! Unreal!


THIS is interesting and has given me some hope in trying VFF's. My right pinky toe curls under, quite excessively. After any runs in my normal running shoes (Mizuno Wave Inspire & Adidas Supernova Sequence 2), that pinky toe is beet red and very tender to the touch. The two toes next to my pinky, also have a tendency to misbehave...by underlapping each other, which I'm sure causes some friction and rubbing. I was hoping that with the toe pockets on the VFF's, this might help "train" my toes to straighten out. Is this a plausible theory? I've already tried the Injini toe socks, but they are way too thin for me and induce the toe numbing way faster than a thicker, padded sock does.

[GLC1968]

I was hoping that with the toe pockets on the VFF's, this might help "train" my toes to straighten out. Is this a plausible theory?

I think it is, based on my experience and what I read here: about toes (http://nwfootankle.com/home/toes)

My feet are already pretty close to the spread out toe condition which is why my VFF's slid right on the first time and why they feel totally natural to me. Of course, the little device they sell at that podiatrists office (mentioned in the link) might be a cheaper way of getting there, too.

[colby]

Colby - do you have a running coach or sports med PT who could look at your running form? It sounds like you might be over-striding, and maybe vaulting or whipping on the right foot during toe-off.

(shoes can let you over-stride and get away with it for quite a while)

I think my PT might do running form analysis (haven't seen them since I graduated from my hip injury, which of course may entirely be related - we might have fixed one system but not all of them). I did notice that the VFFs increase my cadence and shorten my stride. I try to practice mirroring the right to the left in feel (and the VFFs help that), but I think I need to rebuild some related muscle memory.

Good advice. :)

[Jolt]

Those of you who are switching to barefoot and/or VFFs: beware! You will find yourself not wanting to wear other kinds of shoes, even when you're not running. They begin to just not feel right. Given the number of situations where going barefoot or wearing VFFs is not considered acceptable, this is a bummer. Especially since just about any "acceptable-looking" shoe (for anything other than very casual situations) will have some degree of an elevated heel, stiff sole, not enough room for the toes to spread out naturally, or some combination of the above. Hopefully this will start to change soon with all the current interest in going barefoot/wearing minimal shoes.

[KnottedYet]

Jolt - have you noticed any cross-over between VFF and Birkenstocks? I have the perfect Birki feet - it's like those suckers were made for ME. (and, oh, do I feel special!) But I wasn't able to fit VFF at all because my great toe is so huge compared to the rest of my toes that to get a size that felt right left me with floppy flaccid toes everywhere else.

Mostly, I'm wondering if the neutral heel, straight last, and broad toe box of Birkis translate well to the neutral heel, straight last, and unlimited toe box of the VFF.

[colby]

I didn't have any trouble going to Keen sandals after wearing the VFFs for a couple weeks pretty much straight, but Keens are well known for their toebox and foot-friendly shape. ANY shoes that squash my toes feel absolutely wrong - even my bike shoes.

I feel like the VFFs are one of those toe aligner dealies that you see in the SkyMall catalog or in the back of magazines. My left pinky toe always feels funny the first time I put it back in the VFFs after wearing other shoes, like it's being put back where it belongs. I wear them for a while, my toes feel great and the shoes go on super easy, then I wear regular shoes, even just for a night, come back to the VFFs, and I have to argue with my toes to get in them. ;)

[Selkie]

I capitulated and just ordered a pair of the KSOs from REI. My feet are "pre-bunion," according to a podiatrist I saw a few years ago. If I love these shoes, it's going to be very difficult not to wear them to work....

[Jolt]

Jolt - have you noticed any cross-over between VFF and Birkenstocks? I have the perfect Birki feet - it's like those suckers were made for ME. (and, oh, do I feel special!) But I wasn't able to fit VFF at all because my great toe is so huge compared to the rest of my toes that to get a size that felt right left me with floppy flaccid toes everywhere else.

Mostly, I'm wondering if the neutral heel, straight last, and broad toe box of Birkis translate well to the neutral heel, straight last, and unlimited toe box of the VFF.

I haven't worn Birkenstocks but I would imagine you're right. They're one of the very few shoes shaped like a real foot, and are flat from toe to heel. The only potential problem with them is that they aren't flexible. Check out this link http://barefootted.com/2008/08/my-huaraches.html for sandals you can make yourself (for running or otherwise) that fit all the criteria for staying out of the way of the natural functioning of your feet.

[KnottedYet]

I run in Chaco sandals, and have recommended Chacos to a lot of patients (not necessarily for running, just in general). Birkis seem to only really fit a specific type of foot, so I don't direct patients to them unless they already know they've liked them in the past.

If I could wear VFF I'd buy a pair just so I could experience them and pass the info along to my foot people. I can rationalize a lot of shoe purchases that way...;)

Neutral heel and straight last AND wide toe box are rather hard to find, and I'd like to be able to add a few more shoes to my recommendation toolbox. (Even though I haven't worn them myself, I did suggest them to a patient with great foot posture barefoot, kinda iffy posture in regular shoes, and who prefers sports sandals and moccasins. They seemed like a reasonable match, and she was quite excited about how funky they look.)

[Red Rock]

With all of this talk on shoes....well I added some Chacos to my collection this week. My shoes are becoming like my bike collection:D. A big Thank you goes out to Knott on these;):D;). Its nice to know that they are recommened by the Podiatry Association. They have a great arch support and hold by big bunioned toe in place. One foot is worse than they other.

Now I am either in my Danskos or Chacos.

GLC1968-thank you for your eval on the VFF's and toe placement.

I think with the Chacos having the toe "strapped in" actually feels better.

Red Rock

[Serendipity]

Barefootin' hits the big time (http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20090603/ts_usnews/shouldyoutossyourrunningshoesandjustgobarefoot).

I really need to find a PT or podiatrist who, as the article says, doesn't believe that "one size fits all." :(

Been suffering from a heel injury for the last month or so and not really feeling like it was improving, despite resting & icing it. I randomly made an appointment with PT at a local sports medicine clinic and fully expected to be told to 'hang up the running shoes'. After a thorough assessment, the PT confirmed that it was a bruised heel and we talked about treatment. It was when he suggested that I try running barefoot on the treadmill that the light went on. We spent the next 15 minutes talking about barefoot running - showed me the VFF KSO's he uses - and I had a chance to try running barefoot on the indoor track attached to the clinic. What - no pain?

Now I can hardly wait to try this out - I had to order VFFs as no one in town sells them - but they should be here within the next few days. And I do need something on my feet. First of all, there's too much snow on the ground right now and way too much crud on the roads, trails, paths, to truly run barefoot.

The other thing I'm excited about is going barefoot around the house and around the yard....when the snow goes, of course. Had always done that; like so many others on this thread, I had grown up barefoot but over the past few years had listened to those telling me that I needed to protect my feet as I got older.:(

So, the PT did tell me to 'hang up my running shoes' but not in the context I imagined. It's been very enlightening reading about others' experiences on this thread; while I don't expect all my foot troubles to magically disappear, I am looking forward to the 'barefoot running' expeience.

Sorry this is so long - but can you tell I'm excited..:D:D

[Kimmyt]

I picked up a pair of VFF sprints at REI on a whim a few months ago- they had one pair in stock (normally they don't stock them, but someone had returned an online order and they were just sitting on the ground in the shoe section) and they were in MY SIZE. I tried them on in the store and said, 'what the heck!' and bought them.

I wore them once on a treadmill before realizing they were actually a bit too big, so I ordered a smaller size. Still actually have the bigger pair, have yet to return them (left the tags on since I wasn't sure about the fit).

Anyway, I've been adding on 0.5 miles on to the end of my treadmill runs this winter when I didn't run outside, so I got a bit more used to them, but I've been waiting for it to get warmer to take them out!

I took them out yesterday for 0.8 miles and they felt GREAT. I felt so... fast! And free!

My feet certainly aren't made for these shoes. My second toe is slightly longer than my big toe, but not enough to make a huge difference. And my pink tends to curl under the other toes, so that means it takes a lot of manual labor to get my toes in their respective pockets. But once in there they feel okay, at least for now.

Here's a question for people, any funny stores of 'what are THOSE!'. When I first took mine outside on the track at work, I passed some of the security guards out walking during lunch, and their conversation stopped as they passed me, then they started whispering and laughing. I knew they were looking at my shoes but I didn't really care. It was way too much fun to run in them!

Also I saw a girl at my rock gym in these, though i personally think the rubber is too soft to use for any really technical climbing and that also might make them more prone to rock-induced damage and would get ruined too quickly. I also know another guy at my work gym who runs on them on the treadmill, but then apparently there's a growing crowd of BFers at my work gym. What can I say, we're scientists... we're all about empirical research!!!

[KnottedYet]

With all of this talk on shoes....well I added some Chacos to my collection this week. My shoes are becoming like my bike collection:D. A big Thank you goes out to Knott on these;):D;). Its nice to know that they are recommened by the Podiatry Association. They have a great arch support and hold by big bunioned toe in place. One foot is worse than they other.

Now I am either in my Danskos or Chacos.

GLC1968-thank you for your eval on the VFF's and toe placement.

I think with the Chacos having the toe "strapped in" actually feels better.

Red Rock

Chaco has finally done it right! After flailing around with Merrell (for the disasterous hiking boots and shoes in the early 2000's) and the appalling sneakers (mid 2000's) they've taken a cue from Birkenstock. Basing a heel-strap clog on their fabulous Z1/Z2 footbed (like Birkenstock did with the Tokyo) to make the "Toe-Coop" and a closed-heel clog (like Birkenstock did with the London) to make the "Ped-Shed." These won't be available until July 2010. $110 for the heel-strap clog (Toe-Coop) and $120 for the closed-heel clog (Ped-Shed).

And they will be resoleable like the Z1 and Z2!

Yay!

ETA: Serendipity - I run barefoot in the snow (truly barefoot, not with training flats like VFFs). It's good stuff. Give it a try over a short distance.

[Serendipity]

ETA: Serendipity - I run barefoot in the snow (truly barefoot, not with training flats like VFFs). It's good stuff. Give it a try over a short distance.

Wow, KnottedYet, I have never considered running barefoot in the snow.
You inspire me, but for next year :D
Actually we've lost all the snow we had over the past week or so and unless we get a major snowstorm (and that entirely possible), it looks like next winter....which will give me time to build up my courage!

[KnottedYet]

I never ran far (30 yards, tops!) but it felt so neat that I made a point of doing a little run in the snow on sunny days.

That was when I lived where it snowed...

I still run in the snow when I go to visit my mom, but that's not every week!

It's really a lot of fun! I thought my feet would get very cold, but for a short jaunt they stay pretty ok.

[OakLeaf]

Re-post from Chi Running:


Anybody practice chirunning or barefoot running in South Florida? Journalist looking to interview for a magazine article. Please contact Margit Bisztray at majo705@yahoo.com, thanks!


Got a pair of VFF Sprints yesterday. Honestly I'm not sure if they're going to work with my toes or not, but they were close enough I'm going to give them a try for a bit. Or, I may have a pair of size 41s for sale in the near future...

[Tri Girl]

I've been pretty much wearing ONLY my VFF's for about a month now. We did a mountain hike on Tuesday and I wore my trail running shoes with my custom orthotics (I thought I'd need the extra toe protection and support). My arches have hurt terribly for the last 2 days. Eek! :eek: I guess going from no support to full-on support was NOT a good idea.

I'm hiking for 4 days in the Grand Canyon this summer. I want to wear my VFF's, but I'm afraid they won't protect my feet as well as traditional shoes. I'm stumped at what to do. Maybe I should wear my trail shoes but without the orthotics... I've got lots of experimenting to do over the next 3 months.:rolleyes:

[twin]

The trek is supposed be out for women in the near future.:)

[Tri Girl]

The trek is supposed be out for women in the near future.:)

bwaa haaa haaa (insert evil laugh here).... perfecto!

[Grog]

Got a pair of VFF Sprints yesterday. Honestly I'm not sure if they're going to work with my toes or not, but they were close enough I'm going to give them a try for a bit. Or, I may have a pair of size 41s for sale in the near future...

I might be interested in those. I tried size 40 in a shop in Kona but my toes were too long for the "fingers." I tried the men's 41 which fitted fine in the toe area, but were of course way too floppy otherwise.

Let me know how it turns out!

[KnottedYet]

Knee osteoarthritis and shoe choice: http://www.podiatry-arena.com/podiatry-forum/showthread.php?t=46569

This is a very cool study. I like it particularly because it supports what we've been hearing anecdotally from some patients. Less beefy shoes = happier knees.

I'm also quite interested in the fact that changing from a supportive shoe (Dansko clog or Brooks Addiction) to a training flat/flip-flop/barefoot relieved pressure at the damaged knee joint as much as wedging or bracing!

Cheap and simple solutions are my favorite solutions. :D

[KnottedYet]

Here's a nifty series of Q+A discussions about barefoot/shod running: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010/03/barefoot-running-and-shoes-q.html This is a link to the first of 5 installments.

I must admit that the number of popular media articles I read that refer to running in VFF's as "barefoot" is driving me nuts. VFF's are training flats with toes! They are SHOES. If you run in VFF's you are running in training flats, not running barefoot. But I guess compared to the shoes the younger generation grew up with, the return to training flats feels like barefoot? I don't know where it came from, but the VFF=barefoot thing is getting right up my nose.

[OakLeaf]

My new VFFs definitely aren't "barefoot," but they definitely also let my feet take their natural shape a whole lot more than any shoe I've ever worn, including the Jack Purcells we used to all wear in high school and the Keds we wore before that, and including sandals that have to put straps somewhere. Maybe flip-flops, but I can't wear those at ALL. Not having your forefoot and toes all crammed together, I think, is what makes VFFs seem closer to barefoot than to regular shoes, to most people.

We have different words for gloves and mittens, and maybe part of the problem is just linguistic. Gloves aren't the same things as bare hands, but they certainly aren't mittens, either, and I think people have that instinctive problem with the language of footwear. Even sandals aren't normally called "shoes." Calling VFFs by their trademark is fine for now, but as soon as another manufacturer starts selling shoes-with-toes, then what?

But I do get your annoyance with it, totally.

Anyway. This is a totally non-barefoot-running question, but I'm kinda facing a dilemma, and it is related to shoe structure and injury prevention....

Seven weeks out from my marathon, and I'm realizing more and more that the shoes I'm in are just too narrow for me - starting to work on a tailor's bunion as I mentioned before. I'm up to a whopping 1.75 miles barefoot, and that's just not going to happen by May 16. I tried on some shoes yesterday that are definitely closer to fitting - what the store had in stock was a 11 Regular, which were almost wide enough but a little long, and they're ordering me a pair in 10-1/2 Wide with no obligation to purchase.

They don't have a really built-up heel like the shoes I'm running in now, which is good. But the trouble is they're super-cushiony. Walking in them felt like trying to walk on one of those half-inch-thick exercise mats. Taking them for a short run outside the shop was much the same.

From a wear standpoint, the shoes I have now will get me through the marathon - now that I'm satisfied that the whole mileage-limit-replacement thing is basically a scam. :p So the only reason I'd replace them now is because of the width/bunion issue.

Do you have an opinion? Assuming the shoes they're ordering are a good fit?

[GLC1968]

If you read at the barefoot forum over on runners world, they'll be quick to agree that running barefoot and running in VFF's are two entirely different things! In fact, they use BF, MF and shod to describe the different shoes (MF = minimal footwear and BF = nothing on your feet at all).

The thing that sets VFF's (huaraches, treadless moccasins, & water shoes) apart is the fact that they provide NO cushion. Yes, they protect you, but they do not cushion you at all. Even today's racing flats and many of the minimal running shoes are still cushioned and still elevate the heel.

So really, you need 4 categories: shod, barefoot, minimal flat, minimal not-quite-flat! ;)

[KnottedYet]

Yeah, I think you're right. It's a linguistic problem in that we lack a term (other than "barefoot") for running without the built-up shoes that have been nearly the entire market for the last 30 years. We need a term that encompasses barefoot, traning flats, running sandals, training-flats-with-toes, etc.

About the super-cushiony shoes...
(run away! here comes another lecture!!!)

If your first impression was that they are too cushiony, don't get them.

Every body has its own adjustable suspension, and has its own preferred setting. Kind of like cars: some have sporty BMW suspension, some have cushy Cadillac suspension. (if you want to google this, look up "biomechanical leg stiffness")

Say your body has its happy setting for its suspension. For sake of argument, lets say you are running barefoot on the beach. When you run into the soft dry sand, your body will make your leg firmer to adjust (keeping itself at its happy suspension). When you run on the hard packed wet sand, your body will make your leg softer to adjust the suspension.

If softening your leg makes you work harder than usual, you will find running on the hard packed sand very tiring and inefficient over all.

If firming up your leg makes you work harder than usual, you will find running on the soft dry sand very tiring and inefficient over all.

Shoes are kind of like portable pieces of beach that make running on pavement more blissful. Do you want "soft dry sand" or "packed wet sand" between you and the pavement? Depends on which lets your leg work at its optimal efficiency (and that's different for everyone).

If the cushy shoes immediately felt wrong (you called it a "problem") then I would bet dollars to donuts your body was telling you, "This piece of beach is too soft and makes me too inefficient! Do not want!"

ETA: a short little paper: http://www.cc.gatech.edu/fac/Chris.Atkeson/legs/jh1b.pdf

[OakLeaf]

Thanks Knott. That makes perfect sense. (And yeah... when I run barefoot on the beach, I much prefer the harder sand. I actually didn't realize that there were people who were more efficient in the soft stuff, I thought they just ran up there for a better workout! :p)

[KnottedYet]

Thanks Knott. That makes perfect sense. (And yeah... when I run barefoot on the beach, I much prefer the harder sand. I actually didn't realize that there were people who were more efficient in the soft stuff, I thought they just ran up there for a better workout! :p)

Well, that was a metaphor...
Really, soft dry fluffy sand is too soft for pretty much everybody. Maybe I stretched the metaphor too far, but at least it gave you the basic idea.

[OakLeaf]

OK. :o

Except now I have a picture in my head of turkeys on a treadmill, and no idea why those other researchers chose turkeys to study...

[Becky]

I was just thinking about the whole "VFF vs. shoes vs. barefoot" thing tonight on my (VFF-shod) run.

I spent the winter working on incrementally going from light stability shoes to training flats and VFFs. Despite the fact that my VFFs are definitely not barefoot, they are certainly more minimal and less cushioned than my flats (ask my calves!). The more VFF running I do, the closer my training flat form gets to my barefoot form, and that makes me very happy.

DH calls my VFF running "gorilla-foot running " :D

[KnottedYet]

now that I'm satisfied that the whole mileage-limit-replacement thing is basically a scam. :p

Did you see this research paper? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18801775

From a cushion standpoint, there is no need to replace shoes as the cushioning loses its sproinginess. (this is related to those "turkeys running on treadmills" to study leg stiffness: the body adjusts to get its optimal suspension) However, from a distortion standpoint it is very important to replace shoes if they become distorted from wear to the point they are interfering with posture or efficiency. (the heel that is almost completely worn off on the outside, the ripped lateral fabric, the pulled lace-holes, the burst gel bladder, etc.)

Side note: my favorite running sandals are now more than 10 years old, and I just did a half marathon in them this weekend. They have not distorted, and they were never crazy cushiony to begin with so there hasn't been a real loss of sproinginess. (they never had it) No-one can convince me that I need to replace them, and I won't until I feel they have distorted and are messing with my efficiency. I did get them resoled because I wore the old sole off. My second-favorite running sandals are a different style and only 8 years old and unfortunately do have to be replaced (I just ordered new ones). They got a little funky in the process of being worked on and resoled, and I just can't run comfortably in them now.

[colby]

Did you see this research paper? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18801775

From a cushion standpoint, there is no need to replace shoes as the cushioning loses its sproinginess. (this is related to those "turkeys running on treadmills" to study leg stiffness: the body adjusts to get its optimal suspension) However, from a distortion standpoint it is very important to replace shoes if they become distorted from wear to the point they are interfering with posture or efficiency. (the heel that is almost completely worn off on the outside, the ripped lateral fabric, the pulled lace-holes, the burst gel bladder, etc.)

Side note: my favorite running sandals are now more than 10 years old, and I just did a half marathon in them this weekend. They have not distorted, and they were never crazy cushiony to begin with so there hasn't been a real loss of sproinginess. (they never had it) No-one can convince me that I need to replace them, and I won't until I feel they have distorted and are messing with my efficiency. I did get them resoled because I wore the old sole off. My second-favorite running sandals are a different style and only 8 years old and unfortunately do have to be replaced (I just ordered new ones). They got a little funky in the process of being worked on and resoled, and I just can't run comfortably in them now.

Really interesting. I find that my shoes wear, seem to feel perfect, and then I start getting blisters, and THAT is when they need to be replaced. I am always sad, because they feel just right for a while before I replace them, then I have to start over. ;) Maybe I should start with less cushioned shoes. There are so few shoes that come in the width I need that I don't have a huge amount of choices, but it didn't occur to me that why they feel so great after I wear them for a long time is that I've mashed them down a bit. I definitely run way more than the "recommended" miles in them. I only replace shoes when the blisters start forming in places they don't normally form.

I am in Boston for a vacation/convention and someone stopped me in the gym and asked about my VFFs today - he said he'd been running around the area and had seen a few people wearing them today, asked if I ran in mine, was surprised when I said "up to about 15 miles". Yeah, you can run in them! And I sent him down the street to try them on. ;)

Speaking of... we coincidentally walked past City Sports earlier (they have ALL the styles of Five Fingers for men and women!) and my husband decided to try a pair of KSO Treks on and loved them - he said they felt like glove moccasins for his toes. He is a big heel striker, though, so it's a pretty big adjustment for him to walk in them. :) I had to teach him a series of stretches for his calves, hamstrings, ankles, and toes/top of foot. I don't know if he'll make it the weekend in them (not sure about his calf/ankle strength), but he seems pretty happy. He is experiencing the same thing I did with his pinky toe feeling almost sore as it's being pulled back to its proper barefoot location (rather than mashed under the next toe). Spreading the love! I am jealous of his KSO Treks, they don't make them small enough for me yet. They look just like shoes - for anyone concerned about being called out about wearing VFFs, the KSO Treks would be a great shoe for daily wear.

Being in VFFs is definitely different than being barefoot for walking or running, and I do love being purely barefoot with free free toes. It would take some significant re-adjustment to run barefoot after running in VFFs - you can still get away with stuff you can't barefoot (sharp rocks, loose gravel, glass, icky things, concrete) and going the next step would still change your posture. I think the jump from shoe to VFF is a bigger jump muscle-wise than VFF to barefoot, but it's definitely not the same.

[KnottedYet]

Colby - if I could just stretch my metaphor to the breaking point, you might be one of those folks who is most efficient running on the "hard packed wet sand" of life. It sounds like your shoes break down until the cushion meets your needs and they feel fabulous, then they continue to break down to the point the function is getting interfered with (the shoe is distorted in some way) and you begin getting blisters.

Have you tried running in sandals? One of the reasons I love my sandals so much is that width is such a non-issue. I run in Chaco Z1 mostly. www.chacousa.com They come in widths, and I run best in women's wide or men's regular. They might be too cushy for you still, but perhaps worth trying on a pair next time you see them? (the side view of the sandal's medial and lateral counters makes it look like they have a built-up heel, but I measured with a caliper at the actual heel cup and at the ball of the foot and they are only about 1 mm different)

[OakLeaf]

From a cushion standpoint, there is no need to replace shoes as the cushioning loses its sproinginess.... However, from a distortion standpoint it is very important to replace shoes if they become distorted from wear to the point they are interfering with posture or efficiency. (the heel that is almost completely worn off on the outside, the ripped lateral fabric, the pulled lace-holes, the burst gel bladder, etc.)

Yeah, that's where I'm at. Both pairs have around 400 miles on them, so they'll be hitting the 500-mile mark before race day, but the only visible wear on them is the squashed-down soles. I'm not noticing that they ride any different than they ever did.

Interesting that in the study you linked to, there was enough wear after 200 miles for a measurable change in gait. I always found it annoying that my soles squash visibly after only 100-150 miles. I'm not that heavy, nor that heavy-footed.

I wonder if I can get away with racing flats... I just saw a review of the new Mizuno Wave Universe 3, and they have a SUPER square toe-box. Wonder how the heel width is. I may have to try a pair of those on. Shoe salespeople run when they see me coming. :cool:

[Becky]

I wonder if I can get away with racing flats... I just saw a review of the new Mizuno Wave Universe 3, and they have a SUPER square toe-box. Wonder how the heel width is. I may have to try a pair of those on. Shoe salespeople run when they see me coming. :cool:

It's worth a try, right? What shoes are you running in now? As with going barefoot or VFF, do so gradually to avoid injury. For me, moving to training flats (Pearl Izumi Streaks and PI Peak XCs) has been a good move, but it took me all winter to do it.

[KnottedYet]

The Mizunos and PIs are far more built up than what I remember calling "flats" from my track days.

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

So, it seems running in standard shoes is now more like running in high heels than I realized.

Oh, why didn't I go into biomechanical engineering? (then *I* could have been the one making turkeys run on little treadmills... I could've given them little iPods, too!) :p (and I could have made a gazillion dollars designing reasonable shoes)

[Becky]

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?

Yes, as far as I can tell from scanning the shelves at my LRS. I keep watching for something even flatter but, for now, these will have to do.

[KnottedYet]

http://www.finishline.com/store/catalog/product.jsp?sourceid=shopping&productId=prod638426&ASICS&cid=42&CAWELAID=341775370

This is more what I remember training flats (as opposed to "spikes") to be like. Asics Tigers.
When Nikes came on the scene, we went apesh*t over the first pair we saw. They were sooooo different with those wedged heels. My asst coach had the first pair I ever saw, and he called them "nyks". So we all called them that for quite a while. I'm pretty sure the wedge heel on my first pair of Nikes was lower than the Mizuno and PI heels. It was maybe double the thickness of the Tiger.

[GLC1968]

Is it possible that over the last 30 years standard shoe soles have become so overthick and overcushioned that even the Mizuno and PI you two mentioned are now considered "flats"?



It certainly sounds like it from the information referenced in 'Born to Run'. Have you read that yet, Knott? Interesting stuff (and a great story).


Another thing to consider going from VFF's to barefoot is the foot sole toughness. Many people get blisters on the bottoms of their toes because they don't realize they are pushing off with them (and in a VFF, it doesn't matter). Try that barefoot and you'll trash your skin! My limitation with running barefoot now is the soles of my feet, not my calves or ankles or muscles at all. I don't run in my VFF's at all (though maybe I should).

[KnottedYet]

I haven't read it. I'm pretty focussed in on the research papers, not so much on the semi-fictionalized stuff. Eventually I'd like to read it, if only because it's the first exposure so many people (who didn't run track in school, or who didn't run before the latest fad in shoes) have had to the concept of barefoot running.

When I get through the huge backlog of research stuff... :rolleyes:
(I'm getting quite a kick out of all the papers from 1905-1910 about running barefoot. Truly there is nothing new under the sun!)

[OakLeaf]

Okay, okay, I've drifted this thread far enough. :rolleyes:

As far as shoes: if I plan to continue to run shod, which I will for the time being, the message is "patience, grasshopper." As much as this bunion freaks me out, it's mainly because I have a name for it now. It's been building for years, since I was wearing much smaller shoes than the ones I have now, and it is not going to turn in to the Bunion that Ate New York between now and May 16 if I put another 300-400 miles on the shoes I have now. :cool:

But back to barefoot.

I get this feeling like there's a pebble between my first and second toes. It gets to be pretty uncomfortable. Anyone else get that? Any idea whether that's form, structure or conditioning?

[KnottedYet]

I get this feeling like there's a pebble between my first and second toes. It gets to be pretty uncomfortable. Anyone else get that? Any idea whether that's form, structure or conditioning?

Is it in the ball of your foot?

Google "dropped metatarsal head". Didn't I write up an exercise program somewhere on TE for that? (in fact, wasn't it for *you*?)

Anyway, folks feel the "pebble" on hard surfaces and when the muscles that are supporting the met arch fatigue and the met head starts dropping.

[Blueberry]

Is it in the ball of your foot?

Google "dropped metatarsal head". Didn't I write up an exercise program somewhere on TE for that? (in fact, wasn't it for *you*?)

Anyway, folks feel the "pebble" on hard surfaces and when the muscles that are supporting the met arch fatigue and the met head starts dropping.

Here's the linkey: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showpost.php?p=468782&postcount=40

I saved it last time you posted it. This is *most definitely* my problem. Quick question: I assume the thumbs are towards the outside of the foot on the top during the stretch?

[OakLeaf]

Yep, been doing the exercises. Thanks. Also strengthening in yoga and short barefoot runs and walks. If conditioning is what it is, then I'll continue building slowly. Just wasn't sure.

(I confess, as I did confess before, that I slacked off the exercises when it was just too cold to take my socks off even for a few minutes, except for in the shower, literally. Yep, even in Florida, my toes are on the edge of blue most of December, January and February. But I'd already gotten back to the exercises now that it's warmed up a little.)

I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as the ball of my foot; it's more toward the toes. But maybe it just feels that way because my second met head is so far forward from the first. That sounds right, anyway.

[KnottedYet]

Quick question: I assume the thumbs are towards the outside of the foot on the top during the stretch?

Yup. The thumbs end up kinda on to the outsides on top and the fingertips are kinda in the middle on the bottom. Almost like you are pushing upward on the dropped met head with your fingertips while pushing downward on the sides of the foot with your thumbs.

I always think of cleaning Dungeness crab when I do this... y'know after you've taken the top shell off and you are breaking the crab into left and right halves. Mmmmmm, crab..... :D

[KnottedYet]

Oooh, this paper is a lot of fun! http://webh01.ua.ac.be/funmorph/kris/pubs/D'Aout_et_al_2009b.pdf

You can order it through a journal service ($$) if you have trouble getting the pdf above. Footwear Science vol 1 No 2 June 2009, 81-94

A fun stat mentioned in passing in that paper: 88% of healthy women in a USA study were wearing shoes smaller than their feet! (Frey, 1993)

[GLC1968]

I haven't read it. I'm pretty focussed in on the research papers, not so much on the semi-fictionalized stuff. Eventually I'd like to read it, if only because it's the first exposure so many people (who didn't run track in school, or who didn't run before the latest fad in shoes) have had to the concept of barefoot running.

When I get through the huge backlog of research stuff... :rolleyes:
(I'm getting quite a kick out of all the papers from 1905-1910 about running barefoot. Truly there is nothing new under the sun!)

Actually, I don't think there is anything fictional about it. The stories are true. Whether or not all the research is solid is not something I can speak to, of course.

And his historial annecdotes about Nike are fun to read particularly living in Nike-central here. ;)

The whole book is fun once you get the hang of the authors style (which is a bit disjointed).

[OakLeaf]

Oooh, this paper is a lot of fun! http://webh01.ua.ac.be/funmorph/kris/pubs/D'Aout_et_al_2009b.pdf

You can order it through a journal service ($$) if you have trouble getting the pdf above. Footwear Science vol 1 No 2 June 2009, 81-94

A fun stat mentioned in passing in that paper: 88% of healthy women in a USA study were wearing shoes smaller than their feet! (Frey, 1993)

.pdf came through fine for me.

That statistic is kind of "no duh" to me. Women's non-athletic shoes are made to stay on your feet by compressing them all around. Shoes that aren't too small, fall right off. Even when I was wearing athletic shoes that were two sizes smaller than the ones I wear now (which are just barely on the edge of being wide enough), I had to buy my dress and casual shoes a size or two smaller than that. Now that I'm not working, and living in pretty casual areas, it just isn't worth it to me to buy new shoes for the two or three times a year I need them, so whenever I do need to wear them, I feel like Cinderella's step-sisters. "Do I cut off my heels, or my toes?"

I wonder what the percentage would be if they limited the query to athletic shoes.

[KnottedYet]

I wonder what the percentage would be if they limited the query to athletic shoes.

I'd bet it would only be a bit lower for the general population wearing athletic shoes, maybe 50%, judging from what I see around me on the bus of women wearing fashionable athletic shoes. (big toes trying to leap out of the top of shoes, pinky toes lapping over the edge of running shoes)

Of course, there's a self-selection bias in an athlete and their athletic shoe-only sample, because people who run would most likely be fit better just because of the nature of the activity.

I would imagine some athletes (like cyclists) would have higher proportions of too-small shoes than others (like runners).

The Frey study was just around the time Birkenstocks were very fashionable among teens here in the PNW. I sometimes wonder how much that fashion blip influenced the shoe designs that are popular now. (young growing feet that got to spread out during the end of adolescence resisted being jammed into tight shoes in later decades?)

I'm already seeing a wave of injuries from MBT and MBT rip-off shoes, just like there was a wave from the Nike shock and Z-coil shoes. Folks who get injured by shoes leave the sample, but low-grade irritation gets accepted as part of the fashion price.

[Becky]

I'm already seeing a wave of injuries from MBT and MBT rip-off shoes, just like there was a wave from the Nike shock and Z-coil shoes.

What sorts of injuries are you seeing? I'm fascinated by these shoes, in a "OMG-why-would-someone-buy-those?" sort of way... :D

[KnottedYet]

What sorts of injuries are you seeing? I'm fascinated by these shoes, in a "OMG-why-would-someone-buy-those?" sort of way... :D

Ankle sprains, ankle strains, broken ankles, ankle tendonopathies, and.... a broken arm.

Yes! A broken arm! Z-coil heel caught on an object and patient fell.

Z-coil and MBT are very unstable shoes, among other shortcomings (don't get me started) so they can absolutely freak out the lower leg. What drives me nuts are the little old ladies on limited income who got sucked in by unscrupulous salesmen and blew $200-$300 on shoes that they end up hating and which hurt them. I've had more than one tell me the shoes are a disaster but they continue to wear them because they cost so much. They want to get their money's worth. Breaks my heart.

[Serendipity]

Well, I'm officially a convert to barefoot running.

Okay, not exactly barefoot, but close enough. I had ordered the VFF KSO's - when they came in, they were a perfect fit! Just about gave up trying to get them on the first time, but then I read the instructions :o and figured out how to put them on properly.

I've been gradually building up time & distance - my calves sure can feel the difference. Could hardly move the day afer the first couple of times out and that was after only 10 minutes or so of running in them. Please tell that will ease up as my muscles adapt......???

Rather intriguing how natural it feels to land on the ball of my foot. In fact, it doesn't really feel as if my heel touches the ground. Even find that I am landing more on the ball when wearing my running shoes. Not sure if I will ever get to true barefoot running; seems to be too many sharp rocks and broken glass where I run. But, we'll see.

Got quite a chuckle when I looked back at my footprints the last couple of runs. It was a bit mucky in the area even though it was barely above freezing. But there they were, clear barefoot prints!!!! Can only imagine what someone seeing those footprints thought. :D:D

[tulip]

So if someone were to want to start running, and someone had some very old (and worn down) running shoes in need of replacement, would it be advisable for that someone to start of from scratch barefoot, or try VFF, or get some new regular running shoes?

I would like to do some running--not marathons, but 5ks and perhaps a 10k now and then. 3 times a week, nothing too ambitious. I can run in the grass at several nearby parks. All this talk of being barefoot sounds kindof fun and the right thing to do. I only worry about stepping in yuck.

I don't have any issues with my feet or knees. I do have a history of SI issues but that's been under control for a while now with Pilates and yoga. I no longer do chiro ($$$) but I really don't feel I need it now.

Thoughts from the experts and the experienced?

[KnottedYet]

I'd get a $15 pair of aquasox at Target, and give minimal footwear a try.

If you decide it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, you can go spend the $95 on VFF, or Newtons, or Asics Tigers. If you decide you'd like to segue into actual barefoot running, voila, you have emergency shoes for yucky situations. If you hate it and decide your particular body mechanics work best with running shoes, well you've only wasted $15 (and they are still fine for the beach).

[tulip]

What a great idea! Thanks so much, Knott. That's just what I will do.

[Jolt]

I've been gradually building up time & distance - my calves sure can feel the difference. Could hardly move the day afer the first couple of times out and that was after only 10 minutes or so of running in them. Please tell that will ease up as my muscles adapt......???


Totally normal! I can remember my calves being very sore for about the first week. Your muscles are working differently than they are used to.

[colby]

Well, I'm officially a convert to barefoot running.

Okay, not exactly barefoot, but close enough. I had ordered the VFF KSO's - when they came in, they were a perfect fit! Just about gave up trying to get them on the first time, but then I read the instructions :o and figured out how to put them on properly.

I've been gradually building up time & distance - my calves sure can feel the difference. Could hardly move the day afer the first couple of times out and that was after only 10 minutes or so of running in them. Please tell that will ease up as my muscles adapt......???

Rather intriguing how natural it feels to land on the ball of my foot. In fact, it doesn't really feel as if my heel touches the ground. Even find that I am landing more on the ball when wearing my running shoes. Not sure if I will ever get to true barefoot running; seems to be too many sharp rocks and broken glass where I run. But, we'll see.

Got quite a chuckle when I looked back at my footprints the last couple of runs. It was a bit mucky in the area even though it was barely above freezing. But there they were, clear barefoot prints!!!! Can only imagine what someone seeing those footprints thought. :D:D

Yes, your muscles will adapt. Don't add time/distance too quickly, though. Listen to those muscles. :) After the calves for me came the glutes and adductors (not nearly as sad as the calves). Not bad muscles to be working on. :p

And, your footprints never get old. My husband bought a pair of the leather KSO Treks when we were in Boston and he could try them on, now he is amused by his AND my footprints. ;)

[Serendipity]

Yes, your muscles will adapt. Don't add time/distance too quickly, though. Listen to those muscles. :) After the calves for me came the glutes and adductors (not nearly as sad as the calves). Not bad muscles to be working on. :p

And, your footprints never get old. My husband bought a pair of the leather KSO Treks when we were in Boston and he could try them on, now he is amused by his AND my footprints. ;)

That would be funny to see two sets of footprints...

I also find that I am noticing other runners' footprints as well. For example, on a run a couple of days ago, there were a set of prints with a very obvious heel imprint - my first thought, a 'heel striker' - bet they don't know about VFFs! Beware the convert! :D

Thanks, for the reminder about adding time/distance. I've been careful so far and do find that my calves aren't screaming as loudly!

Looking for some ideas from everyone about transitioning and training for a half-marathon at the end of September. I would normally build up mileage over the summer to prepare for that event but not sure how to combine that with transitioning to longer distances with the VFFs. Trying also to figure out if I should train with the idea of running the half in the VFFs or in the Sauconys that I usually wear. Don't want to end up not being able to run the distance in either..:confused: :confused:

[nscrbug]

I ordered a pair of VFF's from REI a few weeks ago, and they finally arrived at my local store. I went to pick them up over the weekend, but I'm so bummed because I had to immediately return them. I ordered the women's Sprint model, in a size 42...which is the largest size they come in, for women. I tried them on right in the store, and sadly my big toe felt like it was "curling upwards"...I'm guessing this means they were too small. The guys working the shoe department there, weren't much help...they seemed pretty clueless. They felt okay everywhere else, except for that big toe. So I went right to the return desk to get my refund. :(

According to the VFF sizing chart, the women's KSO model seems to be a tad bit more generous in sizing, so I will try those next. If those don't fit, I guess my only option would be to go into a men's size. Do any ladies here wear a men's VFF? Does the fit differ much from the women's version?

Linda

[OakLeaf]

I agree that the KSOs I tried on were bigger than the Sprints in the same size. Not sure specifically about the big toe, though, and can't help you with the men's.

[katluvr]

So I am bummed! I have a very small foot--size 4 in womens, where size 6 - 6.5 in running shoes. So VFF's appear to come in a size small enough to work (maybe)...BUT no one carries the smallest size.

Guess I'll have to look into other options!

[Blueberry]

So I am bummed! I have a very small foot--size 4 in womens, where size 6 - 6.5 in running shoes. So VFF's appear to come in a size small enough to work (maybe)...BUT no one carries the smallest size.

Guess I'll have to look into other options!

Try KayakShed.com - looks like they carry down to a 34 in some styles (but are currently out of stock). I've never ordered from them, but have heard good things about them.

[TsPoet]

According to the VFF sizing chart, the women's KSO model seems to be a tad bit more generous in sizing, so I will try those next. If those don't fit, I guess my only option would be to go into a men's size. Do any ladies here wear a men's VFF? Does the fit differ much from the women's version?

Linda

My size 40 mens Treks fit me much much better than my size 42 women's KSO. The KSO feel wider (that's right, wider) in the toe box area, and my pinky toe falls out while my big toe is jammed in. The men's treks, on the other hand, the toes fit better and the pinky toe doesn't fall out.
Lots of men wear women's KSOs - they are thought of as being 1/2 size off from each other, so many men that are between sizes just go over to women's.
Try a 41 Trek.
And/or wait a few weeks/months - women's Treks are coming out at the end of this month. A coconut cloth trek is expected the end of the summer. And men/women's running specific version is coming out in a few weeks, too.

[colby]

Try KayakShed.com - looks like they carry down to a 34 in some styles (but are currently out of stock). I've never ordered from them, but have heard good things about them.

Ordered my sprints from KayakShed - no problems - they were the only place that had ANYTHING in my size.

Really looking forward to the expanded sizes on the Treks!

[Selkie]

I admit that I initially was a skeptic about VFFs, but I went ahead and got a pair. Both of my feet are "pre-bunion," unfortunately. Also, my baby toes face out more than up.

Since I've been wearing my VFFs, I've had absolutely no pain in my right bunion area (ball of foot), which is something I experienced when wearing sneakers. In addition, the corn on my right foot is going away. Who knew? No issues with the baby toes, either.

I have a heavy tread and have been a heel striker, so I've had to adjust. Not a big deal and probably a positive for my foot health. I'm a convert and have to admit that I now own more than one pair of VFFs!!! They are comfortable. I just wish I could wear them to work...

[katluvr]

OMG:eek: You guys are right...Kayakshed DOES have the smallest size (which by measurement may still be a smidge longer than my actual foot--but I wanna at least try).

So which is better? Sprint or KSO?
I probabaly will be doing sidewalk, road or grass next to sidewalk. Not many trails, but then again my do the beach??

May I should go for one that fits a bit snugger since my foot is so small.

K

[TsPoet]

OMG:eek: You guys are right...Kayakshed DOES have the smallest size (which by measurement may still be a smidge longer than my actual foot--but I wanna at least try).

So which is better? Sprint or KSO?
I probabaly will be doing sidewalk, road or grass next to sidewalk. Not many trails, but then again my do the beach??

May I should go for one that fits a bit snugger since my foot is so small.

K

KSO - I don't have Sprints, but my Treks let a certain amount of sand in. When I run on the trail with sand, I always wear the KSO - sand in VFFs is extra annoying.
But, then you'll need the sprints for the grass/sidewalk, so you'll eventually need both :p
BTW - the KSO are hard to put on - I've been wearing treks for months and got so used to them that I could just slide them on. Got my KSO and was amazed at how much more difficult they were to put on. If I'd gotten them first, I may have become frustrated and given up!

[Blueberry]

OMG:eek: You guys are right...Kayakshed DOES have the smallest size (which by measurement may still be a smidge longer than my actual foot--but I wanna at least try).

So which is better? Sprint or KSO?
I probabaly will be doing sidewalk, road or grass next to sidewalk. Not many trails, but then again my do the beach??

May I should go for one that fits a bit snugger since my foot is so small.

K

If you think the size might still be a smidge long, I'd get the Sprint. They generally run a bit smaller - I do think it might fit you better. If you're getting the KSO, get black - rumor has it they run a big snugger (and I can't get my size on my feet in them, so I think it's true). Or, you could order both and see which one fits better. I think I've heard they will let you return, so long as they aren't worn (but double check...).

By experience with the KSO is that it doesn't really keep sand out. But that's just my experience.

[Jolt]

If you think the size might still be a smidge long, I'd get the Sprint. They generally run a bit smaller - I do think it might fit you better. If you're getting the KSO, get black - rumor has it they run a big snugger (and I can't get my size on my feet in them, so I think it's true). Or, you could order both and see which one fits better. I think I've heard they will let you return, so long as they aren't worn (but double check...).

By experience with the KSO is that it doesn't really keep sand out. But that's just my experience.

The black KSOs do seem a bit snugger! I recently got a pair and they are definitely a little tighter than the others--I was putting it down to them not being broken in yet but maybe there really is a slight difference. Hoping they'll stretch just a bit if I wear them with the Injinjis for a while.

[Becky]

The black KSOs do seem a bit snugger! I recently got a pair and they are definitely a little tighter than the others--I was putting it down to them not being broken in yet but maybe there really is a slight difference. Hoping they'll stretch just a bit if I wear them with the Injinjis for a while.

Huh...maybe that explains why my black KSOs were such a pain to put on at first! They've loosened up nicely, and are really comfortable now.

I had no idea...

[Serendipity]

A recent article - definitely supportive of the barefoot running concept.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1170253/The-painful-truth-trainers-Are-expensive-running-shoes-waste-money.html
The comments are as interesting as the article itself.

I'm still building up time with my VFFs but all of the articles I'm reading certainly make me question everything I've accepted so far about athletic shoes: need the motion control, need the support, need to replace after so many miles, blah, blah, blah.

On another note - has anyone tried the VFF Performa?
http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_performa_f.cfm
They look rather funky and may be something that is a little more "dress-up barefoot footwear" - isn't that a mixup of concepts!! Can just imagine the reaction if I showed up at work wearing those one day....:D:D

[colby]

On another note - has anyone tried the VFF Performa?
http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_performa_f.cfm
They look rather funky and may be something that is a little more "dress-up barefoot footwear" - isn't that a mixup of concepts!! Can just imagine the reaction if I showed up at work wearing those one day....:D:D

They look really sleek, but are intended to be indoor-only, so I just can't bring myself to spend money on them (though, reading the description, they do say "primarily indoor" so if you don't really go outside much they might be work-appropriate). The KSO Treks in brown are work-attire acceptable in a similar way - most people don't even notice they have toes until someone points it out, or someone stares at your feet for a while. ;) In comparison it only takes a couple minutes for someone to notice the other models.

I do like the purple color of the performas though. They look comfy. I'd probably feel even more like I was cheating by wearing them. ;)

[TsPoet]

On another note - has anyone tried the VFF Performa?
http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_performa_f.cfm
They look rather funky and may be something that is a little more "dress-up barefoot footwear" - isn't that a mixup of concepts!! Can just imagine the reaction if I showed up at work wearing those one day....:D:D

I wear mine to work. My boss recently told me that I can't wear them to meetings anymore. Since she speaks to me about 1/year, I guess I have to pay attention to her.
I get lots of comments about them, but living in the West, the dress code is rather casual (unlike when I worked in NC). But, if I still worked out East, I'd still be wearing them.
The Bikila is also out - that's there running-specific version.
http://birthdayshoes.com/more-on-the-vibram-five-fingers-bikila-2010-catalog-photos

[Serendipity]

They look really sleek, but are intended to be indoor-only, so I just can't bring myself to spend money on them (though, reading the description, they do say "primarily indoor" so if you don't really go outside much they might be work-appropriate).

Agree - that is part of what's holding me back. Our office isn't casual enough for me to wear those regularly; casual Fridays would work though.
Might be good for at-home/running errands and so on.
Hmmmm, maybe.

[OakLeaf]

Something we can all aspire to (http://www.mailtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100608/NEWS/6080317). Maybe. Or not. :rolleyes:

[KnottedYet]

Lots of reports coming out now of barefoot runners (and Vibram runners) getting stress fractures in their metatarsals.

Even the dude who wrote "Born to Run" got one, as did the Vibram research guy Dr. Lieberman.

It's very important to think about the surface you are running on if you are running barefoot!

[Biciclista]

Knot, I just read through the last few pages of this thread, happy to see all the knowledge and wisdom you added to the pages. I'm no runner, but the high incidence of Plantar's Fascitis and the building up of heels and soles of shoes in the last couple decades does not seem to be coincidental. So I'm turning into a shoe maven (who knew) in my search for shoes that protect my feet but allow them to spread and flex naturally..

[KnottedYet]

Knot, I just read through the last few pages of this thread, happy to see all the knowledge and wisdom you added to the pages. I'm no runner, but the high incidence of Plantar's Fascitis and the building up of heels and soles of shoes in the last couple decades does not seem to be coincidental. So I'm turning into a shoe maven (who knew) in my search for shoes that protect my feet but allow them to spread and flex naturally..

I've been all interested in Irish feet lately. (the 2nd metatarsal is longer than the 1st, generally long toes, often the 2nd toe is longer than the 1st toe)

I've kept an informal survey of my foot patients, and far more than half of them have Irish feet (aka Greek feet or Morton's feet or Morton's toe). Irish feet are only 10-20% of the population, so why so many more foot problems? Over the last couple decades shoes have been more and more engineered for the "average" foot, and so have become less and less appropriate for the Irish foot. Over and over again I see very specific injuries with Irish feet, to the point that I've been guessing (based on injury description) what kind of foot the patient has before they even take off their shoes. It's quite the ego trip when I'm right.

I brought the Irish foot/"average" shoe conundrum up to a biomechanical engineer who was doing a seminar on runners and running injuries a couple weeks ago. I told him about my idea to become a millionaire by designing and selling running shoes made for Irish feet. He thought it was a great idea, and said he didn't know of any shoes already out there. (He also agreed that the mis-match between Irish feet and running shoes is pretty bad.)

Anyone got a few zillion dollars laying around the house that they'd like to invest in a new shoe company? ;)

[NbyNW]

Irish foot? Is it more prevalent in Irish people?

Knott, if you manage to design such a shoe I would love to try it!

Maybe if you look around you can find a venture capitalist with an Irish foot who would love to finance your idea.

[KnottedYet]

The history and distribution of that foot type is sooooo cool! I think some of it came up on this thread: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=34260&highlight=morton%27s

Greeks and Celts had it the most. It was also called the Royal Foot because the ruling Ptolemy gang had it, and passed it along. It's a dominant gene, so the Royal Foot was used as a test to see if someone was really related to the royal families of Europe (descended via the Ptolemies and all those other upper crust folks who interbred so darn much). Claiming to be the long-lost b@st*rd son of the King? Take of your shoe and prove it!

The long 2nd ray foot structure is used in archeology to determine if a Roman-era British burial is of a Roman or of a Celt. Artifacts aren't very reliable because there was so much material exchange, but the foot is!

The statue of Liberty has a Greek/Irish/Celtic/Morton's foot.

Classical Greek statues had long 2nd met feet, Egyptian and Roman statues had long 1st met feet. You can tell if someone was ripping off the statue or style of another artist if the feet were wrong. (like a Roman statue with Greek feet!)

Isn't this stuff just COOL!?!?!

[Trek420]

I have Polish/Russian feet. :confused:

[NbyNW]

Fascinating! My feet are Taiwanese.

[KnottedYet]

I've got Norwegian feet.

But they are archetypal Egyptian feet.

Go figure... :rolleyes:

(and Trek dear, you have Egyptian feet, too. Or at least, not-Greek and not-Celtic) (the long 2nd ray occurs all over the earth, but seems especially prevalent in Greeks and Celts)

[Bike Chick]

Knott, I want some of your shoes! This is neat stuff. My brother and I were comparing our feet tonight and they are identical pairs in different sizes. Our spouses were teasing us about the shape and size of our second toes. My family always said that when your second toe is longer than your first, you were the boss of the family. Now I know where that originated from.

Regarding the VFFs, I want to order a pair for kayaking to start with but where do you get them? I've looked on the internet and they are out of stock on almost every site. There are also warnings about ordering counterfeit shoes. I'm a little apprehensive.

[OakLeaf]

FWIW (not that any of this really belongs in the barefoot thread :p) - with my very short first MTs (both 2nd and 3rd are longer than 1st) and very wide forefeet, I did go with the Nike Zoom Triax Structure 13, for a couple of reasons, #1 being that they just fit so much better than anything else. Surprised the heck out of me, since Nikes used to be so super narrow. I was starting to get a tailors' bunion on one foot from, like, EVERY other pair of shoes I own including my wide Mizunos, and most everything I tried on was even narrower in the forefoot - not good. The Nikes have a VERY square toe box and the heels are plenty narrow for me, even in the Wide width.

After I compared apples to apples - taking out the rock-hard orthotics that I wasn't going to use any more in any case, and using the stock insoles; and comparing that pair against new shoes in other models - I decided that they weren't actually intolerably cushiony, especially not so much as to to offset the fit. Took the better part of 100 miles to get used to them, but they served me just fine for 26.2. :)

But I'd still buy three pairs of your shoes, Knott, if they fit my duck feet.

[KnottedYet]

I've been suggesting running sandals (like the Chaco Z1) to my agonized Irish-footed patients, based on the recommendations I've heard for running shoes for Irish feet. Neutral heel; dense, firm midsole material; minimal-to-none contouring; no imprinted toe-break; no dual density shennanigans.

I also suggest them to my extreme Egyptian footed patients with really long 1st rays and tiny stubby toes, who also have a hellish time with "average" engineered running shoes. (like me)

The fancier the shoe engineering, the less well the shoes will work for the two ends of the goofy bell curve of foot structure.

And if running barefoot makes the world a better place for someone, I'm happy as along as they think about what they are running on and train carefully. (and go to a PT if they start having trouble)

[Bike Chick]

FWIW (not that any of this really belongs in the barefoot thread :p) - with my very short first MTs (both 2nd and 3rd are shorter than 1st) and very wide forefeet, I did go with the Nike Zoom Triax Structure 13, for a couple of reasons, #1 being that they just fit so much better than anything else. Surprised the heck out of me, since Nikes used to be so super narrow. They've got a VERY square toe box and the heels are plenty narrow for me, even in the Wide width.

Oak, I may give those a try. I'm needing a new pair of shoes and have been using the Asics Gel Kayanos. They work fine but I've had so many problems with my heels, feet and ankles that I'm beginning to wonder if it's the shoes.

[KnottedYet]

There is a really cool study being published (I left the info at work) which looked at shoe type and foot type and what injury rates were.

Here's the basic idea, and I'm just going by memory: they took a bunch of experienced runners, and carefully divided them into 3 groups based on their foot posture type: pronators, neutrals, and supinators. Then they randomly assigned 1/3 of EACH GROUP to wear motion control shoes, neutral shoes, or cushy shoes. They ran for something like 3 months in only their assigned shoes.

So you had essentially 9 studies going on, cuz there was a combination of each foot posture type and each shoe type (regardless of if the foot "matched" the shoe).

The results were very cool: didn't matter what the foot posture type, the folks wearing motion control shoes had the most injuries. Folks in the neutral shoes gave them the highest comfort ratings, regardless of the person's foot posture type. There were some other bits, but I don't remember.

And the grand conclusion: doesn't matter what in tarnation you wear on your feet, as long as it feels good to you. Your body is smart enough to tell what will work for it.

Run! Be happy!

[colby]

Thanks for keeping us up to date on all the news, Knot. It's fascinating. :)

My massage (not a traditional massage, more of the active release type) and chiro (sports rehab kind of guy) have both been pleased with the progress of my Vibram running. Heel pain is gone. Hips, SI, pelvis, low back, all staying much more stable. Ankles and calves have adapted. Pain in my shins (shin splints, I guess) is far more tolerable than it has been in the past at this volume of running - as in, you can actually touch my shins :p - and I can massage/stretch it out.

Having been through the adaptation to the minimalist running, though, I don't think it's for everyone. Just like saddles on a bike (and bike fits themselves, for that matter), there's no perfect shoe for everyone. :) There are definitely foot shapes that the Vibrams wouldn't work very well for (long toes, toes that vary in length from "average toes" too much, very narrow feet might have trouble, not sure about the flat-footed either). Not to mention, concrete... ouch. I am not sure I will be able to run the Seattle Marathon in them, it's so much concrete. On the other hand, I can't imagine running without them anymore.

I got a pair of Bikilas in the mail this week - had to get womens sized ones, they don't make them in mens under a 40 (I need a 39 :rolleyes:). They seem narrower in the forefoot and the heel, but not too narrow. The sole is stiffer than the KSOs and the inside is much softer. The toes have reflective material on them. I haven't ran in them yet, I'm traveling and didn't bring them with me, sticking with what I know for now. I don't know if I have the time to break them in over the next 3 weeks to run a marathon in them, but we'll see. I really hope I can run in them barefoot without getting the painful marks on my arches. They are also white, which should be better in the sun.

[Blueberry]

Regarding the VFFs, I want to order a pair for kayaking to start with but where do you get them? I've looked on the internet and they are out of stock on almost every site. There are also warnings about ordering counterfeit shoes. I'm a little apprehensive.

Check REI (http://www.rei.com) and Kayak Shed. (http://www.kayakshed.com)

With REI, they go in and out of stock a lot - so it pays to watch the stock. I've also found a couple of local stores (Great Outdoor Provision Company is one) that get them in fairly regularly - so there might be somewhere near you.

[Bike Chick]

Thanks Blueberry! REI was out of stock on everything. I'll keep checking.

[Blueberry]

Thanks Blueberry! REI was out of stock on everything. I'll keep checking.

Good luck! It really does vary - sometimes hour to hour. Which one are you looking for, and I'll keep an extra eye out:)

[Bike Chick]

Women's Sprint, size 40, in blue if possible. Thanks!

We are heading to St Louis for the weekend and going to REI so I may get lucky there.

We are running in the Susan B. Komen Race For The Cure on Saturday. It's the first time I've done this and I'm really excited about it.

[Blueberry]

This is too cute: http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_performa_jane_f.cfm I think they must have just come out...

One other thing I'll add - if you're looking at REI and they show them as backorder-able, I'd go ahead and order them. They're usually pretty quick to ship (and if you're a member, shipping over $75 is now free to your house).

[nscrbug]

Thanks Blueberry! REI was out of stock on everything. I'll keep checking.

Try this site -
http://birthdayshoes.com/

They have an email alert that you can sign up for, and they will send you alerts on when online stores have the VFF's in stock. Very cool feature. FWIW, try checking citysports.com as that is usually the place that has 'em.

[KnottedYet]

This is too cute: http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_performa_jane_f.cfm I think they must have just come out...
.

I waaaaaant! Too bad my feet don't fit in VFFs!

[colby]

Try this site -
http://birthdayshoes.com/

They have an email alert that you can sign up for, and they will send you alerts on when online stores have the VFF's in stock. Very cool feature. FWIW, try checking citysports.com as that is usually the place that has 'em.

vbsports.com is where I got a couple of pairs (and kayak shed, already mentioned)

[Bike Chick]

Thanks everyone. I found a pair at Massey Outfitters from the birthday shoes site-----thank you nscrbug. They are ordered. I can't wait to get them and try them out.

[KnottedYet]

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_bikila_f.cfm

Wow, 7 mm of sole. That's a thicker sole than the Asics Tigers we wore (back in the day) in track. Much, much thicker than training or racing flats. That's nearly as thick (11 mm) as the industry standard for modern running shoes at the forefoot. That is almost certainly thicker than the soles of the shoes Abebe Bikila wore when he broke his barefoot record for the marathon.

At that point, what is the point? I guess the toe spread is nice. But this is a loooooong way from running barefoot!

They have an appeal, but honestly, there are much cheaper ways to get the same sole.

[colby]

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_bikila_f.cfm

Wow, 7 mm of sole. That's a thicker sole than the Asics Tigers we wore (back in the day) in track. Much, much thicker than training or racing flats. That's nearly as thick (11 mm) as the industry standard for modern running shoes at the forefoot. That is almost certainly thicker than the soles of the shoes Abebe Bikila wore when he broke his barefoot record for the marathon.

At that point, what is the point? I guess the toe spread is nice. But this is a loooooong way from running barefoot!

They have an appeal, but honestly, there are much cheaper ways to get the same sole.

Yeah, some people run in them and don't like them - you lose some of the "feel" of running minimalist/"barefoot".

However, for me, they are still very different from shoes - running in the FiveFingers isn't just about running barefoot to me - I don't think I can run truly barefoot where I am and how I run/train, but I have not been able to find shoe-shoes that work. They are formed to my feet, my toes are not squashed, they are... simple. The shoes don't get in the way of how I run. BUT... I think other people accomplish that in actual shoes (and safer). I guess some people take the barefoot thing literally/to the extreme, but I'm just enjoying the product that has come out of it.

The Bikilas don't feel as thick as shoes, even racing flats. Maybe it's just more subtle. They are definitely significantly stiffer than the KSOs. They don't spec the KSOs in the same way as the Bikila, but it looks like it's about twice as much thickness of the sole in some places. That said, 4mm is still a pretty significant difference. I guess we'll see. :)

[KnottedYet]

I would love to know how they compare to running in Asics Tigers. Similar sole thickness, similar upper, similar minimalist design (except for the toe pockets).

Not quite sure about why they are named Bikila, since he ran faster in shoes. But I guess running once barefoot made him a "barefoot" legend, even though running barefoot wasn't his choice (there were no shoes at the race start for him).

Anybody willing to buy a pair of Asics Tigers instead and give me the remaining $65? ;)

I can certainly see the advantage to an unfettered toe area, but with 7mm sole, I just can't stand seeing all the chat and barefooter opinion sites calling running in Bilkilas "barefoot running".

They are shoes. It is SHOD running. No different than running in any other SHOE. Shoe, shoe, shoe!

(I'm sorry, but it really gets up my nose. I'm ranting at all those "barefooter" sites, not TE. VFF are shoes. Bikilas are really thick soled shoes. We need a new word for the younger generation to use for running in shoes of a thickness that all us older folks ran in for years and years, besides "barefoot". Cuz it ain't barefoot.)

[colby]

I can certainly see the advantage to an unfettered toe area, but with 7mm sole, I just can't stand seeing all the chat and barefooter opinion sites calling running in Bilkilas "barefoot running".

They are shoes. It is SHOD running. No different than running in any other SHOE. Shoe, shoe, shoe!

(I'm sorry, but it really gets up my nose. I'm ranting at all those "barefooter" sites, not TE. VFF are shoes. Bikilas are really thick soled shoes. We need a new word for the younger generation to use for running in shoes of a thickness that all us older folks ran in for years and years, besides "barefoot". Cuz it ain't barefoot.)

I have heard it called "minimalist" - and considering that term generally includes the Nike Frees, I don't see why it wouldn't include flats like the Tigers, too. It's definitely NOT barefoot, but good luck with the vocabulary change. ;)

[Jolt]

http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/products_bikila_f.cfm

Wow, 7 mm of sole. That's a thicker sole than the Asics Tigers we wore (back in the day) in track. Much, much thicker than training or racing flats. That's nearly as thick (11 mm) as the industry standard for modern running shoes at the forefoot. That is almost certainly thicker than the soles of the shoes Abebe Bikila wore when he broke his barefoot record for the marathon.

At that point, what is the point? I guess the toe spread is nice. But this is a loooooong way from running barefoot!

They have an appeal, but honestly, there are much cheaper ways to get the same sole.

I agree...isn't the point to have a nice thin flexible sole so you can feel the ground? Even the newer KSOs that I got recently seem to have a thicker/stiffer sole than the first pair I had, and I'm not so happy about that. They're still a good shoe, but I would have preferred it if they had kept the original thinner sole.

[berkeley]

There are some big differences between the VFF Bikila and other running shoes... having worn them now in rotation with my Brooks adrenaline (which are support/control sneakers), I can say that they are significantly lighter, have way more flexibility and there is no difference between the heel-toe drop which makes it a very different foot strike for me.

The Brooks Adrenaline sole is pretty significant, too and the VFFs are way thinner.

In the end, I don't really care what anyone calls VFFs, barefoot running, minimalist running, whatever...I wear them because they're comfortable. :)

[Grog]

I was in a 10K road race yesterday and I saw a man who did the race barefoot. Not with 5-fingers or Nike Free. Barefoot.

[Trek420]

We saw a guy doing our half-marathon barefoot. He was in the butt-end of the pack, way back with the slow folks like us. He had a t-shirt on advertising a barefoot running site.

[colby]

I saw a dude at the half marathon I did over Memorial Day weekend running barefoot, too. He was toward the middle to the back of the pack. He looked happy, though. :)

I definitely know several folks have ran the Seattle Marathon barefoot, as at least one or two have passed me every year over the last few years. Brave, considering it's mostly concrete. I will have to decide whether I stick with it this year in ye olde Fivers, the concrete was bad enough with full shoes on.

Have not wore my Bikilas for a run, I decided I was too afraid to introduce something new before Ironman. So, it'll be the KSOs. :)

[Jones]

Yesterday, I ran the "World Famous Mud Run" and saw 3 people running in VFF's and one lady running barefoot. I briefly spoke to each of them and they loved thier VFF's and the lady running barefoot said it was her second Mud Run barefoot and loves it. I wish I could of weighed my shoes when I took them off because they were so caked with mud, filled with sand and soaking wet that I am sure they weighed several pounds each and I wished I was barefoot.

[katluvr]

They finally arrived. I am sitting here in my new VFFs, the sprint. I got the smallest pair they have and they do fit my tiny feet. I must admit it feels weird to have all my toes surrounded. Actully my toes feel "trapped" (Mind you I prefer flip flops) And I cannot imagine running in these (yet), since they are very thin on bottom. So does anyone run on pavement in sprints? are the KSO's any thicker on bottom? I know I should start on soft surfaces and I will.
Anyway I now have VFFs and we shall see how it goes!
(The smallest size comes in that pinkish/lavender, oh well!)

K

[colby]

They finally arrived. I am sitting here in my new VFFs, the sprint. I got the smallest pair they have and they do fit my tiny feet. I must admit it feels weird to have all my toes surrounded. Actully my toes feel "trapped" (Mind you I prefer flip flops) And I cannot imagine running in these (yet), since they are very thin on bottom. So does anyone run on pavement in sprints? are the KSO's any thicker on bottom? I know I should start on soft surfaces and I will.
Anyway I now have VFFs and we shall see how it goes!
(The smallest size comes in that pinkish/lavender, oh well!)

K

I have ran briefly in my sprints, and will ironically be using them for sprint triathlons this summer. ;) I don't know that the KSOs are that much thicker, maybe by 1mm? They don't feel a whole lot different to me. I run mostly asphalt, some concrete, and then trails at a distant third. Give yourself time to get used to it. I still find it weirder to walk in them than to run.

Some people are definitely weirded out between the toes. Maybe on the days you aren't wearing the five fingers you should try toe socks to adjust to the feeling. ;)

[GLC1968]

I finally saw a podiatrist for my foot pain on Friday. I saw one about 6 years ago for the same pain (back then it was in both feet - now it's just my right one) and he prescribed custom orthotics. When they never really resolved the pain, I bought a road bike and stopped running/impact all together.

Fast foward 5 years: Last November I started running again in the interest of getting into tri. I hoped that if I started SLOWLY, I could get up to distance without pain. It didn't happen. The pain started about a month ago. It hurts when running in shoes and when wearing certain shoes (usually narrow flats or most anything with a heel). I was astouned that running barefoot didn't hurt at all (I'm only up to about 0.5 miles barefoot).

Turns out that I have fibular sesamoiditis caused by my shoes. My prescription? Run barefoot! Woohoo!!! (starting slowly - which I already understand)

I also have to buy only certain types of shoes (my VFF's got a big thumbs up) and I have metatarsal pads in most of them now. I also have these things called 'Correct Toes' (http://nwfootankle.com/home/toes)to wear when I don't have my VFF's on. All of this should allow my toes to realign back to where they SHOULD be and the extraneous pressure on that sesmoid bone should go away (overly simplified, of course).

I really *heart* my new podiatrist for not just sticking me in some orthotics! :)

I've been following his advice all weekend and my legs were aching yesterday. They are so NOT used to having no heel elevation. Wow, what a difference! I can't wait until my body gets used to this....

[colby]

I finally saw a podiatrist for my foot pain on Friday. I saw one about 6 years ago for the same pain (back then it was in both feet - now it's just my right one) and he prescribed custom orthotics. When they never really resolved the pain, I bought a road bike and stopped running/impact all together.

Fast foward 5 years: Last November I started running again in the interest of getting into tri. I hoped that if I started SLOWLY, I could get up to distance without pain. It didn't happen. The pain started about a month ago. It hurts when running in shoes and when wearing certain shoes (usually narrow flats or most anything with a heel). I was astouned that running barefoot didn't hurt at all (I'm only up to about 0.5 miles barefoot).

Turns out that I have fibular sesamoditis caused by my shoes. My prescription? Run barefoot! Woohoo!!! (starting slowing - which I already understand)

I also have to buy only certain types of shoes (my VFF's got a big thumbs up) and I have metatarsal pads in most of them now. I also have these things called 'Correct Toes' (http://nwfootankle.com/home/toes)to wear when I don't have my VFF's on. All of this should allow my toes to realign back to where they SHOULD be and the extraneous pressure on that sesmoid bone should go away (overly simplified, of course).

I really *heart* my new podiatrist for not just sticking me in some orthotics! :)

I've been following his advice all weekend and my legs were aching yesterday. They are so NOT used to having no heel elevation. Wow, what a difference! I can't wait until my body gets used to this....

Interesting. I have described to some people the effect of wearing VFFs as like the toe separator dealies. I have before/after pics of my toes (more or less, it's a crappy before pic but still visible) that show how far they have separated/straightened just from wearing FiveFingers.

In other news, I was told there were four "barefoot" finishers at the Ironman yesterday (including myself) - one of which was fully barefoot, the other three "barefoot".

[GLC1968]

In other news, I was told there were four "barefoot" finishers at the Ironman yesterday (including myself) - one of which was fully barefoot, the other three "barefoot".


So awesome! I had one guy pass me on my last tri wearing VFF's. I heard him coming (we were on a paved path at that point) and I wondered what the 'flap, flap flap' sound was...until he passed and I smiled to myself. :)

I don't think I'll ever be a VFF runner. I wear mine as walking around shoes. They are too loose in the heel to run in (I think). They are too tight in the toes to wear socks, too. I plan to be either a true barefoot runner or perhaps run in hurraches if I can't go barefoot.

Tonight is my first run in my Terra Plana 'Aqua' (http://www.terraplana.com/aqua-p-1513.html?colour=66) shoes. These are my 'transition' shoes for going from structured running shoe to barefoot (under doctors orders). I can't wait to see how it goes!

[nscrbug]

I finally saw a podiatrist for my foot pain on Friday. I saw one about 6 years ago for the same pain (back then it was in both feet - now it's just my right one) and he prescribed custom orthotics. When they never really resolved the pain, I bought a road bike and stopped running/impact all together.

Fast foward 5 years: Last November I started running again in the interest of getting into tri. I hoped that if I started SLOWLY, I could get up to distance without pain. It didn't happen. The pain started about a month ago. It hurts when running in shoes and when wearing certain shoes (usually narrow flats or most anything with a heel). I was astouned that running barefoot didn't hurt at all (I'm only up to about 0.5 miles barefoot).

Turns out that I have fibular sesamoiditis caused by my shoes. My prescription? Run barefoot! Woohoo!!! (starting slowly - which I already understand)

I also have to buy only certain types of shoes (my VFF's got a big thumbs up) and I have metatarsal pads in most of them now. I also have these things called 'Correct Toes' (http://nwfootankle.com/home/toes)to wear when I don't have my VFF's on. All of this should allow my toes to realign back to where they SHOULD be and the extraneous pressure on that sesmoid bone should go away (overly simplified, of course).

I really *heart* my new podiatrist for not just sticking me in some orthotics! :)

I've been following his advice all weekend and my legs were aching yesterday. They are so NOT used to having no heel elevation. Wow, what a difference! I can't wait until my body gets used to this....

Thank you for posting this! I just read up on Correct Toes, and will be ordering a set ASAP. I have a severe toe over/underlap issue and I think Correct Toes may just be exactly what I need to help my situation. I've had to scale back my running because no matter what running shoe I try, I get toe pain/numbing in my 4th toe on my right foot. This toe curves underneath and lies below my 3rd toe...which I think is causing a lot of friction, rubbing and general irritation. I was thrilled to find out that Correct Toes can be worn in shoes and while running! I've tried other toe-spacers in the past, and all of them eventually fall out of place after a short while. I can't wait to try out these Correct Toes! I'd be interested to hear how they work for you, too GLC. Please keep us posted on this.

Linda

[katluvr]

So I have been wearing my VFFs around the house to get used to them. It is the "toe spread" that I feel the most. I really don't have toes to close or crossing over, but we shall see.
Next step is to go for a REAL walk in them before I try "running" a short spell.

K

[GLC1968]

I did my first run in my Vivo Barefoot shoes last night. I kept it at 3 miles just in case my muscles needed adaptation time.

Basically, I wore thin smartwool socks and my new Aquas. It took a little getting used to but once I got my stride dialed in a bit, it was enjoyable. My calves and feet were defiintely getting more tired than usual as the run went on. I could tell where in my run I normally start to 'plod' because with these shoes on, I couldn't! I really had to focus on form the WHOLE run which was kind of neat and definitely a learning experience. The most surprizing thing is that hills are easier than they were with traditional running shoes on.

My feet are fine today, but my calves are starting to tighten up a bit as the day wears on. Nothing too bad though. I'm looking forward to run #2. I *should* be doing a longer run next, but I think I'll stick to shorter lengths until I fully adapt to the new shoes.

I did not wear my Correct Toes for the run because I wasn't sure if I was supposed to. Turns out, I am, so I'm going to pick up a pair of Injinji socks tonight so that I can wear the correct toes for my next run. I don't want to wear them on 'naked' feet just yet as the right one has a tendency to slip forward and I think running with that happening might cause blisters. We'll see.

My foot hurt a little during the run but I kept reminding myself to relax everything below the knee and it helped a little. What surprizes me is that my foot doesn't hurt at all today...so I think that's a good sign. :)

[katluvr]

Ok, so I FINALLY actually ran (ok, jogged is more the speed) in my VFFs. So I was supposed to do a 25 min run, so I headed to the waterfront, there is a wideside walk but also grass that usually has a bit of a worn path from those that run off the concrete. So I started out bit fast and also w/ a shock...hitting the pavement/concrete sidwalk was hard. Then I moved to the grass, not so bad but since I never run on grass I had to deal with all uneven it was. So my pace slowed nicely (almost too slow). I ran mostly on the grass, but last 5 minute on the sidewalk. I liked the sidewalk since it was even, but liked the grass for the cushion. Overall not bad. I could feel my hips more and my left ITB has been giving me fits anyway. I also suspect I'll feel it in my feet, not so much the bottom but the toe spread and push off effect. I do still heel strike, but I think I was mostly a "flat foot" strike. I had a bit of rubbing at heel and side arch of one foot, but I think I did not have the straps tight enough. Can't say I "loved it", but I will give it another go.

So, how does one clean these? As getting the smallest size puts me in the light lavendar ones they are a bit dirty.

K

[indigoiis]

You just throw them in the washer. Make sure you hang to dry.

[GLC1968]

I still haven't tried running in my VFF's yet, but I do have a new barefoot running goal.

Two days ago I did a mini-tri at a local lake. The run was a trail run over hard packed dirt trails and a few sections of asphalt (~2 miles). I found it very difficult to do effectively in my new running shoes. I think this is because I bought my shoes a size bigger than normal to get more toe space. It makes them feel a little like clown shoes on terrain where I need to be nimble. Not good! I had to slow WAY down to keep upright. There is another mini-tri at the same lake (same course) in two weeks. I want to run it barefoot. I'm not sure I'll be ready!

My calves and feet are conditioned since I run in my barefoot shoes up to 4 miles now, so that'll be fine. The soles of my feet are not. My longest truly barefoot run is now 1 mile and that was on rough pavement and cement. I've never run barefoot on a trail before. Since this lake/park is near my house, I'm going to give it a try a few times prior to the next tri, but I will also need to work up to longer distances on my regular routes too. I've heard that the soles of your feet will toughen quickly, so I'm hopeful.

Any thoughts? Has anyone else had to toughen up the soles and how long did it take?

[colby]

I still haven't tried running in my VFF's yet, but I do have a new barefoot running goal.

Two days ago I did a mini-tri at a local lake. The run was a trail run over hard packed dirt trails and a few sections of asphalt (~2 miles). I found it very difficult to do effectively in my new running shoes. I think this is because I bought my shoes a size bigger than normal to get more toe space. It makes them feel a little like clown shoes on terrain where I need to be nimble. Not good! I had to slow WAY down to keep upright. There is another mini-tri at the same lake (same course) in two weeks. I want to run it barefoot. I'm not sure I'll be ready!

My calves and feet are conditioned since I run in my barefoot shoes up to 4 miles now, so that'll be fine. The soles of my feet are not. My longest truly barefoot run is now 1 mile and that was on rough pavement and cement. I've never run barefoot on a trail before. Since this lake/park is near my house, I'm going to give it a try a few times prior to the next tri, but I will also need to work up to longer distances on my regular routes too. I've heard that the soles of your feet will toughen quickly, so I'm hopeful.

Any thoughts? Has anyone else had to toughen up the soles and how long did it take?

You might run (jog, walk) this route in your VFFs to learn about how your feet need to adapt to the route. Where are there roots, rocks, or other things that you need to pay attention to, and how does it feel on your feet.

Next, I'd say the soles of your feet will be decent on the dirt/trail (depending on roots/rocks/etc but you might have trouble with that even in VFFs), but the asphalt might be harder (no pun intended?). The biggest problem I think would be that when pavement gets hot, it's HOT. I can feel hot pavement through my VFFs and socks, and when walking barefoot have had to put them back on because it was too hot. ;)

I'm always afraid of stepping on rogue rocks and weird stuff being barefoot-barefoot, the VFFs basically let me be a little more lazy (on a scale of 1 being super careful to 10 being running shoes, I think the VFFs are a 3 but being barefoot would be 1). I've considered starting to run barefoot also, especially for short runs, but as the season wears on I just don't think I can take the heat on my feet. Maybe that's something you build a tolerance to as well?

[GLC1968]

Yeah, I'm not sure about hot pavement as well. I know that you can build up to it as we used to have to as kids on hot sand, but I have no idea how long it took. The pavement part of the route will be in the shade though (I did pay attention to that) so heat shouldn't be an issue.

I already run on bad pavement and cement barefoot, so I'm not worried about that part, either. I am nervous about the trail part - it's not only rutted packed dirt, but it's also narrow. What if other runners step on my feet? What if I have to jump to the side to allow someone through and there are blackberry brambles there? Oy...maybe this is a bad idea. Maybe I should give my VFF's a try.

One guy was wearing VFF's last week, but I couldn't find him afterward to ask his experience. I don't think my VFF's fit well enough to run in. They are kind of large around the heel area (I needed a bigger size because of my super wide feet) so I think they might rub and blister. My injini socks don't fit real well in the toes either - too cramped - so I have to wear them without socks. Mine are sprints and I tried on classics at REI and they fit better, but I don't have the $75 to spare for a second pair (yet).

You are right though - I need to try the trail with my VFF's on. That would be a smart thing to test out.

[colby]

Yeah, I'm not sure about hot pavement as well. I know that you can build up to it as we used to have to as kids on hot sand, but I have no idea how long it took. The pavement part of the route will be in the shade though (I did pay attention to that) so heat shouldn't be an issue.

I already run on bad pavement and cement barefoot, so I'm not worried about that part, either. I am nervous about the trail part - it's not only rutted packed dirt, but it's also narrow. What if other runners step on my feet? What if I have to jump to the side to allow someone through and there are blackberry brambles there? Oy...maybe this is a bad idea. Maybe I should give my VFF's a try.

One guy was wearing VFF's last week, but I couldn't find him afterward to ask his experience. I don't think my VFF's fit well enough to run in. They are kind of large around the heel area (I needed a bigger size because of my super wide feet) so I think they might rub and blister. My injini socks don't fit real well in the toes either - too cramped - so I have to wear them without socks. Mine are sprints and I tried on classics at REI and they fit better, but I don't have the $75 to spare for a second pair (yet).

You are right though - I need to try the trail with my VFF's on. That would be a smart thing to test out.

I have mixed results running in mine barefoot, I think it comes down to distance, speed, and terrain, along with the fit (of course). I ran in my KSOs once barefoot (concrete/asphalt) and did intervals for 5-6 miles, my feet were marked up on top and bottom on my left foot (wider than my right). Not blisters, more specific (and painful, never again, but maybe if I built up tougher skin there I could take it). I ran a sprint in my Sprints (how appropriate) a couple of weeks ago barefoot and my feet weren't marked up in that way at all. I did have blister-like rubbing, but no different than wearing running shoes with wet-ish feet. I of course had sand in my shoes and my feet were wet. :P

My KSOs are one size bigger than my sprints in mens sizes - I intended to wear the KSOs for distance/running, the sprints for daily wear but I can't run in my running shoes anymore so I sometimes use my sprints. For shoes that were built to be used barefoot, they sure don't seem very well thought through inside (we'll pretend you can't get blisters or hurt your feet, it'll be MAGIC!). I have not tried running barefoot in my Bikila yet, they are womens sized and one size bigger than my KSOs numerically (M39 KSO, M38 Sprint, W40 Bikila). The Bikila are lined inside more like a sock liner so I'm hoping I can run in them barefoot for longer distance, and that the padding will help with running on concrete (the Seattle Marathon has many concrete miles, sigh).

Shade is good. You should be fine on the asphalt, then. Just remember your running posture, sometimes in races I fall back to bad habits as I'm still developing new ones. ;)

So, I'm kind of thinking a few different directions. Maybe if you're uncomfortable being barefoot, you'll overthink things and be too cautious. On the other hand, you won't really know until you try it, and this is a good distance to do something like that. You could try running it in your VFFs if you walk it and decide it's too iffy. You could try running part of it barefoot or in your VFFs ahead of time and see if you can tolerate either of those two. You do have two weeks, so if you can run this course a few times barefoot and/or in VFFs before then, you can learn something about it - and be more confident.

[Tri Girl]

The biggest problem I think would be that when pavement gets hot, it's HOT. I can feel hot pavement through my VFFs and socks, and when walking barefoot have had to put them back on because it was too hot. ;)


I've discovered that this week. So far I've pretty much spent the summer on the treadmill (my longest run in recent weeks being 10 dreadful miles inside), but this week I've been running in the VFF's outside. OH MY- my feet get so hot!!! Not so bad on the trails in the shade, but even then the dirt can be pretty hot.
I'm training for a 24 hour trail race in late October, so being on the trail is better for me anyway.

QUESTION:
I'm noticing the balls of my feet are getting tender when I run. Do you think I can put something on the ball of my feet (moleskin or something) to cushion it? I've never blistered in my running shoes before, but I'm getting blisters with the VFF's.

When the Bikilas come out, it looks like I'll be investing in my 3rd pair of VFFs. I *LOVE* them oh so much. My VFF's are my BFF's. ;)

[Jolt]

I did some real barefoot running today and it felt great! I was at my church's summer camp and alternated swimming with running laps around the dirt/gravel (think river gravel, not sharp crushed stone) road through the camp. I did two miles total of running (one mile at a time) and could have done more but had to go somewhere.

[colby]

I've discovered that this week. So far I've pretty much spent the summer on the treadmill (my longest run in recent weeks being 10 dreadful miles inside), but this week I've been running in the VFF's outside. OH MY- my feet get so hot!!! Not so bad on the trails in the shade, but even then the dirt can be pretty hot.
I'm training for a 24 hour trail race in late October, so being on the trail is better for me anyway.

QUESTION:
I'm noticing the balls of my feet are getting tender when I run. Do you think I can put something on the ball of my feet (moleskin or something) to cushion it? I've never blistered in my running shoes before, but I'm getting blisters with the VFF's.

When the Bikilas come out, it looks like I'll be investing in my 3rd pair of VFFs. I *LOVE* them oh so much. My VFF's are my BFF's. ;)

I'm glad I'm not the only one with the hot feet. ;) The closest I get to blistering in mine barefoot (and I guess even with socks) is below my toes and I've thought about bodyglide or something on the inside of the shoe to reduce some of the friction with the spots inside the shoe where the fabric meets the interior. I think I would protect against blisters the same way you would in shoes, moleskin or taping, keeping the feet clean and soft (though I guess not TOO soft ;)).

I have a pair of the Bikila, they are comfy inside, and built a little different (other than the harder sole), more like they were intended to be worn for running without socks. They are harder to put on than the KSOs, but I have put a ton of miles on my KSOs so I'm sure they're quite worn in. I hope to run in the Bikila this week. I can't race triathlons in them, but I hope to wear them for just running. They are also white and someone already reported your feet don't get as wet running through surface water in them, so maybe they'll pass less heat on, too.

[KnottedYet]

I do all my barefoot stuff on grass or dirt trails, so I'd never thought about the heat factor on asphalt. Hot dirt feels good on my feet, but considering my trails are in damp cedar and fir forests, even sunny patches of dirt aren't all that hot.

I'm a heat wimp. I'll just keep running in sandals when I go on concrete and asphalt. I really have no desire to run barefoot on man-made surfaces. I'm not only a heat wimp, I'm also a concrete wimp. But I do walk on crushed gravel to get my feet tougher... <roars and pounds chest like Tarzan> ;)

[katluvr]

I was a bit surprise that I rubbed a place on my heel and my arch of my foot had a tender spot. I was hoping NOT to have feet issues w/ the VFFs.
I have not run in them since (I have not run at all d/t work schedule!)

I'll try again later this week. Mix things up a bit.

And my toes do have "lines" on them when I take them up, leave impressions (does that make sense). They are tight little boogers! (sp??)

K

[TsPoet]

I was a bit surprise that I rubbed a place on my heel and my arch of my foot had a tender spot. I was hoping NOT to have feet issues w/ the VFFs.
I have not run in them since (I have not run at all d/t work schedule!)

K

here's a post by a guy with a similar issue, and about his fix for it.

http://birthdayshoes.com/vibram-five-fingers-smackdown-classics-vs-bikilas

As to the tender spot, it'll likely go away when your feet get used to using their muscles.

[GLC1968]

Acorns hurt. That is all. ;)

[tulip]

I noticed the first sweetgum balls on the ground today. Now THAT would hurt!

Such hazards of barefoot running. I'm still on barefoot walk-run combo in the park when I walk my dog. I'm not up to barefoot walking or running to the park, though. I'm in an urban area, so there are no trails. I'm not going with VFFs because they are too expensive. My feet, however, are free, so I'm going with my plain old feet.

[GLC1968]

tulip - many barefoot running 'experts' recommend totally bare feet over things like VFF's anyway. With bare feet, you get much better feedback about what you are doing right or wrong in terms of distance, duration or form...so it's easier to avoid injury. It's much harder to overdo it becasue your feet will hurt too much almost immediately.

I am running on urban sidewalks, MUP's and a few cobblestone-like pathways. I have not run in grass (too hard to see obstacles) or on dirt yet. My first dirt run will be this evening, so that should be interesting.

[tulip]

tulip - many barefoot running 'experts' recommend totally bare feet over things like VFF's anyway. With bare feet, you get much better feedback about what you are doing right or wrong in terms of distance, duration or form...so it's easier to avoid injury. It's much harder to overdo it becasue your feet will hurt too much almost immediately.

I am running on urban sidewalks, MUP's and a few cobblestone-like pathways. I have not run in grass (too hard to see obstacles) or on dirt yet. My first dirt run will be this evening, so that should be interesting.

It's nice to know that you are venturing onto asphalt; you give me confidence that I will be able to do it someday, perhaps before it gets too cold this winter. The streets around here are clean, but HARD! I like running on grass and dirt because I hear/feel a satisfying thump of the earth, like it's responding to me. Sounds strange but it's true. Enjoy your dirt run this evening.

[GLC1968]

Running barefoot on dirt trails though the forest is the most fun a person can have standing up! OMG - what a blast!

I generally don't like to run (but I like to be fit) but I really, really had to force myself to turn back so that I didn't overdo it. It was amazing!!

I enjoyed it so much that I am seriously contemplating buying a $50 annual pass to this park this late in the summer so that I can run on the trails as much as I want (without having to pay for parking each time). It was THAT fun! :eek:

[Jolt]

GLC, what are your trails like? Are they fairly smooth dirt, or are they loaded with rocks and roots? I sometimes run trails barefoot and it is fun until I start getting tired and having a harder time with the rocks/roots that are unavoidable here in New England. If I can get really good at doing these trails barefoot I will be in pretty good shape!

[GLC1968]

Jolt - It was mostly hard packed dirt as we haven't seen a drop of rain in a month now. It was highly rutted from MTB in the spring (when it was muddy), but not hard to navigate. I ran this same trail last week in my VivoBarefoot shoes, but I was tripping over them. It was so much easier totally barefoot!

I do remember the NE trails...this one was definitely smoother. Some roots, but there were no rocks bigger than a golf ball (and easily avoidable).

[tulip]

Today I walked to the park (with shoes), and then took them off and did some jogging, some playing with my dog, and lots more walking. The grass feels so good, and it rained yesterday so the ground is springy and not hard. I decided to walk home barefoot, on the street/sidewalk. It was great! I walk slower in bare feet, but I like it. I feel really in the moment because I have to watch where I'm going and be mindful of the ground and my body.

6 hours later, my feet are still buzzing in a good way. That's the only way I can describe it. They feel alive. Luckily, I can go barefoot while working.

This is alot of fun once I got over my trepidation of going barefoot.

[GLC1968]

Not to get too far 'out there', but there is some real science to the importance of being physically in touch with the planet. The earth has a resonant frequency (very low ~8 Hz) that apparently peaks around 8am and 5pm. This electromagnetic signal is critical to our circadian rhythm. It's called the Schumann Resonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schumann_resonances) and the space station has a resonator installed to duplicate it because without it, humans don't function properly (sleep disruption, unrest, depression, etc).

I would imagine that living in a concrete jungle surrounded by all manner of RF waves (from WiFi, cell phones, TV's etc) would greatly interfere with our bodies ability to pick up on the Schumann Resonance and might contribute to all kinds of disfunctions.

Anyway, it sounds hokey, but I feel peaceful when I get the chance to walk our property barefoot in the evening. I attribute it to getting in touch with the resonant frequency of the earth. :)

[GLC1968]

Finally had a chance to make my huaraches and try them out on a run (from invisibleshoe.com (http://www.invisibleshoe.com/)). I bought them to wear as just sandals since I can't currently find any that are wide enough for my foot, but figured I'd try at least one run in them.

I put them on and headed out at about 4:30 yesterday afternoon. They were GREAT! Felt like barefoot but protected. I did get surprized by a rock or two because the soles really are very, very thin, but once I realized this, I just avoided stepping on rocks. Definitely super light, super flexible and nice and cool. I think I like them better than my $150 running shoes! :eek: There was broken glass on the side of the road and they protected me from it just fine, too.

Since I've been planning to run my tri on Wednesday barefoot, I wanted to get in one more truly barefoot run. So when I got to the sidewalk (about a mile from my house), I kicked off the huaraches and ran barefoot. (the hurraches are much easier to carry than my regular shoes, too) I got about 100y down the sidewalk before I realized that the bottom of my feet were really in pain! I put the shoes back on and it helped. I turned around, walked for a bit, and then ran home. Total run was about 2 miles with only about 100y barefoot. That 100y destroyed me though. A cement sidewalk that sits in the sun all day is HOT. I have blisters on the bottom of my feet now!!

Not only will I not be doing the tri tomorrow, but I'm worried about my weekend. I'm supposed to be leaving for a hiking trip on Friday.

I'm stupid. :(

[Veronica]

Not only will I not be doing the tri tomorrow, but I'm worried about my weekend. I'm supposed to be leaving for a hiking trip on Friday.

I'm stupid. :(

I do tris with blisters all the time. :eek: Well, actually I get blisters at every HIM. My take on it, if you can suffer through it, do it. Keep them covered with moleskin so they don't get worse. Everyone has a different pain threshold though - I am the Queen of Show Up and Suffer! So maybe you shouldn't listen to me. :rolleyes:


Veronica

[GLC1968]

I do tris with blisters all the time. :eek: Well, actually I get blisters at every HIM. My take on it, if you can suffer through it, do it. Keep them covered with moleskin so they don't get worse. Everyone has a different pain threshold though - I am the Queen of Show Up and Suffer! So maybe you shouldn't listen to me. :rolleyes:


Veronica

Yeah, if it were a real tri, I'd do it. Since it's only an unofficial training tri AND I'm still going on a hiking trip on Friday (for 3 days of hiking), it's really not worth it to me.

I'm normally a 'suck it up' kind of girl myself...but not this time. ;)

[Veronica]

You could still go do the swim portion of the training tri. Enjoy the hiking!

Veronica

[NbyNW]

I just got the VFF Performa Janes. I'm thinking to use them just as an indoor shoe, but I'm also going to try them for Pilates. I like to do Pilates barefoot, but some studios require socks, which can slip, so I'm thinking these might also be a good sock substitute.

Question about fit, for those of you who have experience with other models of VFF: how snug should these be? I usually wear a 6~1/2 and I ordered these in 37. I can slip my pinky finger in behind the heel of these when I have them on, but the toes seem about the right length. I don't think I'm flopping around in these, but I'm tempted to go down a size. Any thoughts?

Other than wondering about whether I've selected the right size, I really like these shoes. The material is excellent quality -- soft and pliable -- and well-crafted. I'll write more when I've spent more time in them!

[GLC1968]

NbyNW - I think you might want to go down a size only because those are leather and they'll probably stretch out a bit. Even my sprints have stretched slightly.

Though, too small VFF's would be miserable, so it's really hard to say!

I really want a pair of KSO Trek's to wear hiking. I've decided that I really, really don't like hiking boots!

[jessmarimba]

Hey, KnottedYet?

So would you say it's a posture issue or a structural issue for someone who is knock-kneed and slightly pigeon-toed while running, but still overpronates enough that I keep being assigned stability plus shoes with custom orthotics? I can look in the mirror and see that my ankles collapse inwards while standing still - though my normal stance is feet straight ahead or slightly turned in. One is worse than the other, but I think one leg might be longer b/c my hips are uneven and I have some scoliosis.

I switched to a much lighter shoe,pared down the orthotics, and switched to a mid-foot strike a few months ago, and it eliminated all ITBS issues that crippled me during my last marathon. But I'm thinking of starting with VFFs when I'm allowed to run again since I'll be completely starting over. I'll also be doing crazy amounts of core work to make up for wearing the brace. Do you think I'm asking for trouble?

[KnottedYet]

Jessmarimba, I'd really have to see you to be able to give you a good answer.

My bet is that it's postural; weak or lazy core, especially hip stabilizers and hip external rotators. Kinda sounds like they are just strong enough to get by when standing or walking, but under the greater stability challenge of running they go AWOL. Meanwhile your feet amight trying to compensate by going pigeon-toed, trying to get the ankle where it belongs as you run.

Ask whoever you're working with to help you correct your standing leg posture in front of a mirror. Then practice, practice, practice at home. No impact, and good for you!

[NbyNW]

NbyNW - I think you might want to go down a size only because those are leather and they'll probably stretch out a bit. Even my sprints have stretched slightly.

Though, too small VFF's would be miserable, so it's really hard to say!


I've decided to keep the 37s. Too much trouble to do a return and be home for the delivery (gotta pay the customs agent!) That, and it just may have been a chilly afternoon the first time I tried them on. Maybe next time I'll order two sizes and then sell off the one I don't want to keep. As it is, I don't have a ton of extra material flapping about, so I think these will do.

I've done a little walking around in them -- light housework, etc. As I moved around the fit improved, almost like a second skin but never snug. Today I did a Pilates workout with them. I LOVE how grippy the soles are!

I think I'll really enjoy these as an indoor shoe, something to alternate with the Birkenstocks I usually wear around the house. Gotta be able to walk barefoot before I can run barefoot!

[jessmarimba]

Thanks Knot - can't do any sort of work yet, but it's something to keep in mind. I've always had weak hip flexors so that makes sense. Weak ankles, too, but if the inside of the shoe won't support them maybe they'll strengthen on their own.

I'll just keep walking. At least this brace forces me to have good posture :)

I'm doing the walking with the VFFs, too, as it makes me pay more attention to my feet. I'm less likely to trip and fall (and hurt myself) wearing them.

[Susan]

I came across this thread last week and read "Born to run" because of it. I always liked being barefoot and was walking barefoot or in Flip Flops all summer since I was a child. Other shoes have always hurt my feet (I hate winter!). I did however never (as a grown-up) try to run barefoot, because I was listening to all those advices about how you need thick cushioned running shoes for overpronation or supination or whatever because otherwise you would hurt knees and ankles and how unreasonable it would be to not use such shoes.

Yesterday it was raining all afternoon and I decided to go for a barefoot walk. Nobody was out there except me and thinking about the book and this thread after some minutes I just had to try to run. I thought I would give it a try for a few steps and just see how it would feel. I was prepared that it would maybe hurt and I wouldn't know the right technique and would have to stop very soon.

I couldn't stop. I'm not a good runner at all, but I ran my whole walking lap thats quite steep in some parts and about 5 miles long. The road was so warm from the hot days last week and so clean because of the rain and the cool water felt so good and it didn't hurt at all. Going uphills wasn't exhausting.

It sounds stupid but it felt so right and was so joyful that I kept telling myself that running for so long isn't recommended at all for the first barefoot-running-experiences but would have been "sad" about having to stop. It actually felt better than walking. Normally I run my lap (a flat 5 k, in shoes) thinking about how long it will take me until it's over because my knees and my toes and my shins start to hurt and I have a hard time hitting 5k. It was so much easier without shoes, which was the last thing that I would have expected.
Yesterday I would have wished that the road would go on and on and on. :)

I thought I'd have to share - in the end it's your fault that I gave it a try ;) I'm looking forward to my next barefoot-run and will try to stop myself earlier this time.

[sarahspins]

I am not a runner but I wanted to add my 2¢ in here about the VFF Bikilas.. I finally got a pair, and I originally thought these would be neat due to the extra tread.. and offer a little more protection from the crazy hot pavement we get here in TX, except that they don't even come *close* to fitting me - I can't even get them on my feet :( I can just barely get my KSO's on (I eventually cut a slit in the top so I could get them on easier - it doesn't seem to effect the performance of those), so I knew to order a size up (my KSO's are a size smaller than my classics) and even with that, there's just no way I can get my feet in these... there's no stretch in the material, and I'm not willing to cut a brand new pair of VFF's for the sake of "maybe" being able to put them on, so I'm sending them back :(

Very disappointing.. my classics in 39 are on the verge of being too big, so trying a 40 is really out of the question - they'd be much too big and I'm not convinced it would really give any more space in the instep area.

[KnottedYet]

Sarahspins, can you just run or walk barefoot on grass?

After all, that's what "barefoot running" is all about.
I prefer to run on grass and dirt barefoot, and in Chaco Z1 or Z2 sandals on asphalt.

(and I would never consider running in my sandals "barefoot" running. That's shod running.)

VFF just don't fit me, and I tried them a few years ago and do realize there are more models now. But I've run barefoot my whole life and don't really have a desire to wear VFF anyway.