Not wanting "organic" bread

[shootingstar]

A little incident early this morning, as another reminder how much there needs to be ongoing education for the public about healthy foods. Different tactics have to be used for different population segments, depending on the local population demographics for :

Eating least processed food, food closest to their natural state and also food that has less chemicals and other additives to improve "mouth feel".


A Filipino woman (I judged this from her visage and her accent) beside me in line-up at the artisan bakery asked the clerk: "Do you have any bread that is not organic?" I think the clerk was trying to figure this one out because most of their bread choices were "organic" or healthy. I turned to the woman and said, "But it's healthy." She said the bread was not for her. She nearly glared at me.

OOOook. Didn't know I dived off the dock on this one! :o

After thinking about this for a minute, I chatted briefly with the clerk afterwards. She said there were the occasional folks who perceived organic bread as a sham, blah, blah. I suggested to her that maybe next time, a better way to sell the bread to certain folks was to explain the bread has no shortening, no sugar, etc.

In my humble opinion, artisan bread to certain population, particularily those raised on Asian diets or those accustomed to Wonder bread, they would find the artisan bread "hard", or chewy for certain bread types. (French bread, ciabatta, ficelles, etc.). I know I did when I first switched about 15 years ago, while straddling with softer mouth feel breads, like focaccia.

Also people have to be taught that artisan bread keeps longer if it is not presliced at the bakery and kept in its paper bread, not in plastic (where mold will develop faster). Sounds simple, but huge segments of the population need to be taught this if breadmaking is not part of their family/cultural tradition/diet.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Shootingstar,
I am fairly certain that woman was asking for non-organic bread because organic items are generally substantially more expensive. Organic bread around here is about $4 or $5 a loaf. Yes it is healthier, but some people simply can't afford it.
And I think I may have done this myself on occasion.

[badgercat]

Sure, organic, artisan bread is more healthful and tastier and doesn't support the food conglomerates to the same degree or whatever, but when I see a loaf of whole wheat sandwhich bread that will last for two weeks if I keep it in the fridge, well. I'd love if I could afford to buy ciabatta all the time, or even had the time to learn how to make it, but I can do neither in my current situation.

I can see where you're coming from, shootingstar, but we don't know anything about this woman... and if a stranger in the market had questioned my buying choices, I might have glared too. :o

[Eden]

Organic doesn't necessarily equal artisan, nor does artisan mean organic.... you can get Safeway's O organics line of bread that is whole wheat, but pretty much regular soft sandwich bread. I know there are a few other brands out here that do organic breads that are not hard crust French or Italian artisan styles too. On the other hand some of the tastiest artisan breads around here are not organic (though by their nature do not have nasty stuff like HFC's or preservatives in them - looking at their bread ingredients most loaves have simply flour, water, yeast and salt unless the recipe specifically calls for some sweetener - like in challa).

I'm betting with some of the others here that the woman was concerned over the cost more than anything.

[OakLeaf]

the woman was concerned over the cost more than anything.

Except that she was in an artisanal bakery.

Now, I agree that if another customer in a store specifically asks for something, it's not for me to lecture her about her choices. (But I think it would've been perfectly okay for the store employee to ask for her reasoning - to try to determine what breads she might find acceptable and correct any possible misperceptions.)

But if cost were the issue, she wouldn't have been in that bakery at all.

[shootingstar]

Hey folks, not disagreeing about the cost issue for "organic" breads. This bakery doesn't overtly advertise "organic". If you tasted their brands, its more artisan.

What I was focusing more was how to better market to diverse populations in certain North American cities, where some people genuinely don't understand about much about the health benefits of certain foods/food products.

I'm not that pure. We don't buy organic fruits and veggies simply because of cost. We merely try to buy local, which is only possible during growing / harvest seasons.

If I can elaborate on my point, if you go to any of the Asian bakeries (in large North American cities if they exist), their breads and cakes are um..."softer" in mouth feel, most likely using shortening and other agents to achieve that mouth feel taste. There has been a change in past 15 years, where one sees pita breads, sandwich grain breads creeping onto the shelves.

For instance, I would not serve hand baked French bread or the "harder" mouth-feel European breads in great quantities to my parents or any relatives with a still a dominant Chinese/Asian diet. It would be more the North American born relatives or those with heavily Westernized diets that would gobble up artisan bread.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Except that she was in an artisanal bakery....

But if cost were the issue, she wouldn't have been in that bakery at all.

She may well have no idea what an "artisanal bakery" is! I didn't a couple of years ago. It's quite likely that she is from a place where a bakery is a bakery. Lots of people go to a bakery because the bread is (or used to be) fresher than from supermarket shelves.

Another possibly is that she has the idea that 'organic' bread means whole grain non-white bread with a hard chewy consistency (this is a pretty common notion), and she just wanted white fluffy bread. And maybe her descriptive vocabulary was limited.
In the Caribbean and Puerto Rico (where I lived for many years), the average person thinks that bread that is very white and very soft and very fluffy is superior bread that you can be proud to serve. Harder chewy non-white bread with grain bits is looked upon with suspicion as being crude, perhaps even stale. The softer, whiter, and fluffier the better. And any good homemaker goes directly to the local bakery to buy bread, not the supermarket. :)

[badgercat]

Except that she was in an artisanal bakery.

...

But if cost were the issue, she wouldn't have been in that bakery at all.

Now, I do a lot of my clothing and household shopping at thrift stores, but sometimes, I go into expensive clothing stores, or :eek: local bike shops, and only seriously look at the clearance rack because I can't afford the regularly-priced merchandise. Cost is an issue with much of the products at Whole Foods, too, for example, but that doesn't stop me from going in there once in a while.

But I'll get off the cost horse now, since that's not where the OP wants to go with this topic. :o

[papaver]

I would never eat bread that you can keep for two weeks. It just isn't natural. I often bake bread myself or I buy it at a local bakery. Never in a supermarket. I keep my cut bread in the freezer and use just what I need.

[Pedal Wench]

...I turned to the woman and said, "But it's healthy." She said the bread was not for her. She nearly glared at me.



I have to agree with a few others --- organic doesn't necessarily mean healthy (organic pastries - high-fat, refined yet organic flour, organic sugars - organic yes, healthy, no!) and non-organic can most definitely be healthy!

[shootingstar]

She may well have no idea what an "artisanal bakery" is! I didn't a couple of years ago. It's quite likely that she is from a place where a bakery is a bakery. Lots of people go to a bakery because the bread is (or used to be) fresher than from supermarket shelves.

Another possibly is that she has the idea that 'organic' bread means whole grain non-white bread with a hard chewy consistency (this is a pretty common notion), and she just wanted white fluffy bread. And maybe her descriptive vocabulary was limited.
In the Caribbean and Puerto Rico (where I lived for many years), the average person thinks that bread that is very white and very soft and very fluffy is superior bread that you can be proud to serve. Harder chewy non-white bread with grain bits is looked upon with suspicion as being crude, perhaps even stale. The softer, whiter, and fluffier the better. And any good homemaker goes directly to the local bakery to buy bread, not the supermarket. :)


I suspect it is true that her definition of bakery is merely bread that is fresher than supermarket.

Would agree on different attitudes in other parts of the world, that there is in minds of some folks that "white", soft and fluffy bread is seen as superior and even status-oriented. (ie. an implication one has money to buy Western style food, etc.)

Until last 10 years, many of the Chinese grocery stores in Chinatowns I've been in, rarely carried hardly or no brown rice at all in large amounts. (Black rice is for occasional, specialized dishes). Brown rice is viewed by traditional minded folks, as crude, low status/peasant. Regardless of brown rice's real health benefits.

Certainly one does not offer in temples...brown rice to the "gods". It tends to be white rice. Sorry, to mix comments on rice vs. bread, but that is the other major carb. where similiar attitude exists of "white" is 'better' in the minds of some folks.


Japanese cuisine does seem to integrate into some traditional dishes, some brown rice.

Well, Bleeckerstgirl, if you want to open your own bakery, you already know how to market that bread! :D;)

[shootingstar]

As for storage of the bread and not having it presliced, I learned from my partner, who learned from his mother..

It takes us several days to eat the bread, depending on loaf size. No, we don't put it into the freezer. Eh, it doesn't bother me, as long as there's no mold.

Our bread source: http://www.terrabreads.com

Other source is abit more expensive, but 1-2 types not listed, we enjoy. http://www.labaguette.ca/home.html See their notes on shelf life.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I suspect it is true that her definition of bakery is merely bread that is fresher than supermarket.

Would agree on different attitudes in other parts of the world, that there is in minds of some folks that "white", soft and fluffy bread is seen as superior and even status-oriented. (ie. an implication one has money to buy Western style food, etc.)

Until last 10 years, many of the Chinese grocery stores in Chinatowns I've been in, rarely carried hardly or no brown rice at all in large amounts. (Black rice is for occasional, specialized dishes). Brown rice is viewed by traditional minded folks, as crude, low status/peasant. Regardless of brown rice's real health benefits.

Certainly one does not offer in temples...brown rice to the "gods". It tends to be white rice. Sorry, to mix comments on rice vs. bread, but that is the other major carb. where similiar attitude exists of "white" is 'better' in the minds of some folks.


Japanese cuisine does seem to integrate into some traditional dishes, some brown rice.

Well, Bleeckerstgirl, if you want to open your own bakery, you already know how to market that bread! :D;)

All true! :)

I've gotten back into baking our own bread for the past couple of months, and I do find the bread stays perfectly fresh for several days without being refrigerated. It's cool.
It's odd not going to the bakery much anymore. Still not sure whether this is a permanent thing, but so far I am enjoying it!

It's been years since i was in Puerto Rico, but surely there must be some whole grain bread there by now..... ;) :rolleyes:

Oddly enough, at our house, basically white bread is still the favorite, even when home made. :o
Not organic, but unbleached and no weird stuff or preservatives added! ;D

[Pedal Wench]

Funny - the Terra Breads aren't 100% organic either. ;)

[smilingcat]

The bread I bake isn't organic. I don't use 100% organic flour. Yeast is yeast comes in 2 pound block I keep in the freezer. Salt is inorganic so none of this organic non-organic. Butter I use isn't organic either nor the milk use. I often use milk in place of water.

Much to my horror, my partner bought a Trader Joe brand of organic artisian bread :mad::mad: the other day.

[Cataboo]

Hmmm. Half vietnamese here - being a french colony made crusty french baguettes part of the Vietnamese culture. Not to mention "expresso" with condensed milk. I couldn't say definitely, but I'd assume that the parts of society eating french bread were the more educated & higher classes, since those were the ones that were learning french, etc. So I wouldn't say all asians would have a problem with crusty or hard bread.

That being said... after dating a belgian guy for several years, I can definitely appreciate good bread, however I don't/can't see bread as a dietary staple. I find it constipating and just don't feel as good on it as opposed to a diet with rice as a dietary staple. I'm more than fine with brown rice or wild rice and will often mix it in with white rice (it's hard to beat a 25 lb bag of white rice for $12). I mostly figure that half my ancestors evolved eating rice as a dietary staple for however many generations, and that's just what's natural for me.

I do like some bread on occasion, and will usually just go to costco and get their big bag of ciabata for $5 or some of their other bread offerings, eat a bit and freeze the rest to use when I want bread.

As for organic vs. non-organic food... I basically am more interested in locally produced food as opposed to organic food. An organic bell pepper that has been trucked across the country to me to buy for $5.99 a lb seems silly vs. going to the local farmers market and buying a bell pepper that may or may not be organic but didn't have to be trucked across the country.

I also take the term organic with a grain of salt... given that the regulations on what can call itself organic are fairly loose. I don't avoid organic food, but I will usually only buy it if it's the same price or just moderately more than the non-organic alternative. I'm more likely to buy milk from cows that haven't been treated with bovine growth hormone for $3 than organic milk for $5 vs. non-organic bgh treated milk for $2.50

And I'm a bit skeptical that we're going to feed the entire world on organic farming... I definitely believe in smarter farming than what we're currently doing. I grow some herbs & some veggies in my yard

[papaver]

As for organic vs. non-organic food... I basically am more interested in locally produced food as opposed to organic food. An organic bell pepper that has been trucked across the country to me to buy for $5.99 a lb seems silly vs. going to the local farmers market and buying a bell pepper that may or may not be organic but didn't have to be trucked across the country.



I couldn't agree more.

[msincredible]

As for organic vs. non-organic food... I basically am more interested in locally produced food as opposed to organic food. An organic bell pepper that has been trucked across the country to me to buy for $5.99 a lb seems silly vs. going to the local farmers market and buying a bell pepper that may or may not be organic but didn't have to be trucked across the country.

+2, I try to buy locally as much as possible, we are also trying to grow some of our own.

BTW I am amused by people who think that because I am vegan, it is even more important that I eat organic veggies/fruit than the omnivores. Pesticides etc. tend to concentrate as you go higher up on the food chain.

[Christopher]

+3 re local food. Added to that, at a Farmers' Market you are paying the farmer direct rather than a supermarket. I get my eggs direct from a lovely farm with free-range chickens everywhere, put £1 through the postbox and pick up a half-doz from the box in the yard....

[OakLeaf]

Well, yes and no.

Small-scale agriculture is always local, but local doesn't guarantee non-industrial. As isolated as some people may be from agriculture, there are few places in the USA that aren't within 100 miles of industrial farms.

Buying local industrial-chemical food means I'm poisoning farmworkers whom I might meet, poisoning the aquifer that might feed my own water supply, and infesting my own neighbors and maybe myself with diseases. No thanks. (Not that I mean NIMBY, only that "local" poses no advantage and in fact is a personal disadvantage when agriculture is industrialized.) I'll choose long-distance organic over that. Even though organic standards were severely diluted at the urging of industrial agribusiness, they're not completely worthless.

Also, depending on your jurisdiction and the rules of the particular market, buying at a "farmers'" market doesn't always guarantee that produce is local. It burns me up to go to a "farmers'" market and find produce imported from hundreds or even thousands of miles away. :mad::mad:

So, if produce comes from a small-scale local farm; if eggs, meat and cheeses are truly pasture-raised; then yeah, absolutely, the "organic" label is a plus but absolutely not a requirement. But if you're buying some products of industrial agriculture (and face it, all of us except maybe GLC1968 do, and I don't think even she grows, threshes and mills her own grains), then the "organic" label is definitely an important value-added.

[PamNY]

A Filipino woman (I judged this from her visage and her accent) beside me in line-up at the artisan bakery asked the clerk: "Do you have any bread that is not organic?" I think the clerk was trying to figure this one out because most of their bread choices were "organic" or healthy. I turned to the woman and said, "But it's healthy." She said the bread was not for her. She nearly glared at me..

Listening to people moralize about food is annoying. Makes me want to eat a bowl of Froot Loops.

Pam

[Pedal Wench]

I just bought a can (as a joke) of spray-can pancake batter. Looks like a can of Reddi-whip whipped cream, but it's pancake batter. Says it's organic. I seriously doubt it's going to be very healthy...

[salsabike]

Listening to people moralize about food is annoying. Makes me want to eat a bowl of Froot Loops.

Pam

Yes! :p

[bmccasland]

All this about bread bakeries reminds me of when I moved to NorCal and was thrilled to see there was a "French Bakery" in town, and my supervisor loved it, two thumbs up! So I went with great expectations - and they took fresh loaves of bread and immediately stuck them in plastic bags to keep the crust "nice and soft". Found out said supervisor had gone to France and hated the bread there, "couldn't find a decent piece of bread, it was this lousy crusty stuff."

You say Tom A toes, I say tom O toes.

I didn't go back to the French Bakery - they would NOT sell me a loaf of bread fresh out of the oven not stuffed into a plastic bag. I soon discovered my local Safeway grocery - that had an in-store bakery stocked plastic bags and paper for their bread, thus keeping both kinds of customers happy.

[OakLeaf]

Well, it's annoying to me to listen to people who talk about people who try to take responsibility for the world they live in, as though it were a bad thing, and it's so much cooler to not give a @#$!.

But you know what? If there were a thread about Froot Loops, I just wouldn't click on it.

[Tuckervill]

Listening to people moralize about food is annoying. Makes me want to eat a bowl of Froot Loops.

Pam

ROFL.

[Cataboo]

Well, it's annoying to me to listen to people who talk about people who try to take responsibility for the world they live in, as though it were a bad thing, and it's so much cooler to not give a @#$!.

But you know what? If there were a thread about Froot Loops, I just wouldn't click on it.

I don't think the comment about fruit loops was directed at this thread, but more at shooting star being glared at by the phillipino woman after telling her that organic bread was healthy.

[GLC1968]

Well, yes and no.

Small-scale agriculture is always local, but local doesn't guarantee non-industrial. As isolated as some people may be from agriculture, there are few places in the USA that aren't within 100 miles of industrial farms.

Buying local industrial-chemical food means I'm poisoning farmworkers whom I might meet, poisoning the aquifer that might feed my own water supply, and infesting my own neighbors and maybe myself with diseases. No thanks. (Not that I mean NIMBY, only that "local" poses no advantage and in fact is a personal disadvantage when agriculture is industrialized.) I'll choose long-distance organic over that. Even though organic standards were severely diluted at the urging of industrial agribusiness, they're not completely worthless.

Also, depending on your jurisdiction and the rules of the particular market, buying at a "farmers'" market doesn't always guarantee that produce is local. It burns me up to go to a "farmers'" market and find produce imported from hundreds or even thousands of miles away. :mad::mad:

So, if produce comes from a small-scale local farm; if eggs, meat and cheeses are truly pasture-raised; then yeah, absolutely, the "organic" label is a plus but absolutely not a requirement. But if you're buying some products of industrial agriculture (and face it, all of us except maybe GLC1968 do, and I don't think even she grows, threshes and mills her own grains), then the "organic" label is definitely an important value-added.

Ditto. I can't tell you how annoyed I was to find things like bananas and mangos at the farmers market in NC. These things were shipped there from South America, for pete's sake! Hell, there were even boxes of green beans and tomatoes that could have been grown locally that were imported from Mexico. That's just wrong, in my book. It's intentionally misleading.

It's more than just choosing organic or choosing local. The BEST is to know exactly where you food comes from (which is why we try to produce a majority of our stuff ourselves), but, in the interest of being realistic - even the act of thinking about where your food comes from is a step in the right direction.

In reality, if every single person in the US were to all of a sudden demand that all their food be both local and organic or they wouldn't eat it, a vast majority of this country would go hungry. We do not (and cannot) produce enough food to feed even our own population with these methods. :( This is why something like Peak Oil is so huge - it's not just about not being able to drive our cars or ship our foods...it's also about not having the fuel to run the agricultural equipment or to fertilize (fertilizers are petroleum products) the crops/soil in order to produce the necessary quantities of food. But I digress...

To be fair, I am by no means, perfect. We do buy products of industrial agriculture. Less each day, but we still do. (Though, thanks to Susan O., we are about to start milling our own grains! ;))

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I just bought a can (as a joke) of spray-can pancake batter. Looks like a can of Reddi-whip whipped cream, but it's pancake batter. Says it's organic. I seriously doubt it's going to be very healthy...

OMG that sounds disgusting! :eek: If it's an aerosol can, that's even worse.


All this about bread bakeries reminds me of when I moved to NorCal and was thrilled to see there was a "French Bakery" in town, and my supervisor loved it, two thumbs up! So I went with great expectations - and they took fresh loaves of bread and immediately stuck them in plastic bags to keep the crust "nice and soft". Found out said supervisor had gone to France and hated the bread there, "couldn't find a decent piece of bread, it was this lousy crusty stuff."


Too funny! Yes, in Puerto Rico people wanted nice soft bread too- a soft bread was 'fresh', a crispy crust meant it was STALE. :D

[shootingstar]

I don't think the comment about fruit loops was directed at this thread, but more at shooting star being glared at by the phillipino woman after telling her that organic bread was healthy.

Folks like Oakleaf, GLC, others here on TE etc. should be commended for cultivating their own food gardens, etc. When I first met my partner, who just was in the process of selling his farm, I didn't quite understand his dedication to shop local, visit farmers' markets at home and on trips..but realizing quickly just how much physical labour and time is required to raise one's own food (plants, animals, etc.), I've become a shopper that is more alert, not necessarily "pure" in my food buying habits since I still would like to eat bananas, mangoes and other whole foods that can't be grown in our climate.

My comment to the Filipino woman was quite impulsive and off-the cuff. It was probably the first time I ever said anything to anyone in a food store lineup about their purchases/desires. Otherwise I just look at people's shopping carts and baskets out of curiosity --non-plussed, bored, appalled or amazed, depending on what is in there.

Can I be allowed to be human and have contradictions? :p After all, I was lining up to buy my chocolate biscotti and a loaf of rosemary olive oil bread from same bakery? :D I have no guilt, at least the bakery makes their own biscotti which is more delicate and lighter tasting than other biscotti at other places.

Will I serve soft drinks at my home? If you visit our home, most likely not. Neither he nor I like soft drinks hence, we don't stock up on the stuff. We have limited space at home. But we have juice, wine, etc.

Catriona: I forgot about the colonial French influence on the Vietnamese baguette sandwiches. Now if they served real meat slices, instead of the over-processed meat in those sandwiches, I would eat the stuff more often. To me, the Asian-style processed meat tastes even more artifical and gross than some of the European style processed meat (ie. baloney, etc.).

[OakLeaf]

We do not (and cannot) produce enough food to feed even our own population with these methods. :(

Not so quick with the "cannot." The info-box on this page (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/organiccrop.html) has a nice summary.


Spray-on organic pancakes.... :eek: Forget the Froot Loops, that just makes me want to have a pancake spray fight. :p

[GLC1968]

Not so quick with the "cannot." The info-box on this page (http://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/organiccrop.html) has a nice summary.


I still stand by 'cannot'. I'm not saying that you cannot produce as much using organic methods. I am saying that without equipment, refridgeration and the ability to ship food, we cannot feed our population (organic or not). Human population boomed because we could feed it. But, our ability to feed it is artificial and inflated. Take away those inputs and the overall yields drop and people go hungry. And additionally, we have large population centers in areas not conducive to agriculture - so local is definitely not always possible. But again, there's so much to it. If it were an easy fix, there would be no debate and we'd all be living large on healthy, fresh, local food and the small farmers would be respected and the big 'evil' agribusinesses would have gone the way of the dodo. ;)



Spray-on organic pancakes.... :eek: Forget the Froot Loops, that just makes me want to have a pancake spray fight. :p

That sounds like a disgusting mess in the making! :p

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Can I be allowed to be human and have contradictions?

Yes. :)

I have tons of contradictions and I certainly don't always do or say the exact right thing.

[msincredible]

I should mention that my usual form of buying "locally" is riding my bicycle to the farm 7 miles away and filling my backpack with their produce. :)

[OakLeaf]

Folks like Oakleaf, GLC, others here on TE etc. should be commended for cultivating their own food gardens, etc. ...

Can I be allowed to be human and have contradictions? :p

None'a that in my direction eh. Truth is I'm probably the worst environmental offender on this board, what with being a snowbird, and the travel, and half of the year living 12 miles from anywhere, and all. :(:( I hate that that's true (and the snowbird part isn't my choice, but that's another story for the marriage counselor :rolleyes:). But it is true, I know it, and it's part of why I bristle when people mock the meager efforts that I do make to offset the damage.

Human, contradictions, yepper.

[tulip]

None'a that in my direction eh. Truth is I'm probably the worst environmental offender on this board, what with being a snowbird, and the travel, and half of the year living 12 miles from anywhere, and all. :(:( I hate that that's true (and the snowbird part isn't my choice, but that's another story for the marriage counselor :rolleyes:). But it is true, I know it, and it's part of why I bristle when people mock the meager efforts that I do make to offset the damage.

Human, contradictions, yepper.

Just think of all that heating fuel that you DON'T use! ;)

[GLC1968]

None'a that in my direction eh. Truth is I'm probably the worst environmental offender on this board, what with being a snowbird, and the travel, and half of the year living 12 miles from anywhere, and all. :(:( I hate that that's true (and the snowbird part isn't my choice, but that's another story for the marriage counselor :rolleyes:). But it is true, I know it, and it's part of why I bristle when people mock the meager efforts that I do make to offset the damage.

Human, contradictions, yepper.

Contradictions? You bet. I have a brother who is a pilot for a commercial airline. No matter what I do, I can't offset the damage he does every minute of his work day. I did get him into recycling though. :p

We do what we can. It's all good. :)

[maillotpois]

I should mention that my usual form of buying "locally" is riding my bicycle to the farm 7 miles away and filling my backpack with their produce. :)

Not on the Ducati? ;)

[smilingcat]

The Winter Harvest Handbook: Year Round Vegetable Production Using Deep Organic
Techniques and Unheated Greenhouses (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1603580816/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance)


The One-Straw Revolution: An Introduction to Natural Farming (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1590173139/ref=ord_cart_shr?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance)


The Backyard Homestead (http://www.amazon.com/Backyard-Homestead-Carleen-Madigan/dp/1603421386/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1243651831&sr=1-1)

And if you do a search for "backyard homestead" on amazon, you will find many more books on intensive farming technique in an urban setting.

Our growing technique isn't pure "organic" since the soil on my property is depleted. Depleted of nitrogen, potassium, phospor, sulfur, magnesium, and all the other trace elements. We do have an active composting going to help with the soil rehab. We have no choice. We use chemical fertilizer.

Useless lawn has been torn out and replaced with diverse selection of plants. Most are not native to this area :(.

There was an interesting article in recent Mother Earth News. An urban homesteader in Pasadena. Every inch of his property with exception of his house was used to grow food. Several thousand pounds of vegetable, fruits nuts ... per year.

----------
When I go to the farmers market, I find out where they are from and buy "local" This could mean 80 miles away. We used to buy farm eggs, interesting blue-ish color, to tan to brown egg shells. small chicken, butchered looked like a black silkie... to bison meat. Not sure how local it is. Might be 300 miles from the market.

You will not find banana, mango and like at california farmers market. Only items allowed are the items grown by the farmer is the way how I understand it. The LAW!!

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As for organic bread, never occured to me that some would consider hard crust as being stale. Isn't that the point of baugette? But having it explained, makes sense. Just tad odd to me.

[GLC1968]

I'm not sure if this is the family in Pasedena you are referrring to, but this place is amazing (and pretty much a legend in the 'homesteading' world). Something like 3 tons of veggies from a 1/10th of an acre or something...

http://www.pathtofreedom.com/

[channlluv]

I try to buy local, too, when I can, but being in a major metropolitan area where local actually does include northern Mexico, it's kind of hard to know what's safe and what's fudgy on the great slide scale of organic squishiness.

smilingcat - when I read your post I had a flashback of reading something once upon a time that molasses was used as an additive to irrigation systems to restore the minerals in farm soil. I wonder if that might help your yield and replete your soil.

I love crusty whole grain bread - someone called it artisan bread, and I didn't know that it was low-gluten and all that until I read it on this board. Interesting stuff. Now I'm looking for it every time I go shopping as there is a new Trader Joe's on the way home from my favorite bike workout. Woohoo!

Of course, I'm supposed to be off wheat to test for a wheat allergy that might be hanging up the weight loss effort, but getting off wheat is h-a-r-d. For me, at least.

Susan, how are you milling your own grains? I've got a small coffee grinder that I've used for grinding millet and flax, but after that, I don't know much what to do with it. The one bread I tried didn't taste very good, alas.

Do you have a good recipe for millet and flax bread?

Roxy

[malkin]

There'a a banana farm in Ventura CA.

[OakLeaf]

The bakers of the really good millet bread keep their process a deep, dark secret, but I've heard it rumored that it's a sourdough process (so it's not truly yeast-free). I haven't got around to trying that yet. Rice flour is a main ingredient as well. (Also, it's processed on equipment shared with wheat bread, so although I can tolerate it well, it's not suitable for a challenge diet or for most people with celiac.)

Although the commercial bread lists flours, not whole grains, in the ingredient list, I think my next attempt will be to soak, grind and ferment whole millet and rice. That should eliminate some or all of the bitterness of the millet.

[smilingcat]

I'm not sure if this is the family in Pasedena you are referrring to, but this place is amazing (and pretty much a legend in the 'homesteading' world). Something like 3 tons of veggies from a 1/10th of an acre or something...

http://www.pathtofreedom.com/

YES!!

Wow!! such wonderful video you dug up. Yes, his action made us rethink of our garden. And thus our reason for tearing out our lawn.

I'll post more on the garden thread.

[msincredible]

Not on the Ducati? ;)

It's only 7 miles! Plus the parking lot is all dirt and I'm a little bit nervous about the Duc in there. :o

[Cataboo]

Catriona: I forgot about the colonial French influence on the Vietnamese baguette sandwiches. Now if they served real meat slices, instead of the over-processed meat in those sandwiches, I would eat the stuff more often. To me, the Asian-style processed meat tastes even more artifical and gross than some of the European style processed meat (ie. baloney, etc.).

I'm not sure which processed meat you're talking about...if it's the round greyish stuff that comes wrapped in banana leaves, I avoid that and don't eat it.

What I typically get on the sandwichs is a more spicy "ham" like stuff, and that's typical. With pate & the rest of the vegetables.

BUt you can definitely get fresher meats on them... but I can see in vietnam without ready refrigeration, the processed or ham like stuff keeps better.