Feminists? Any here?

[Jewell]

I was wondering if there are any self proclaimed feminists out there? I'd assume so since this is a women's cycling site. (or womyn if you prefer!)

Did you know that bicycling revolutionized and liberated women unlike any other invention! It allowed us to be mobile when women were allowed to do little but keep after a house, look pretty, and wade hand if food to husband and child. No longer could women wear restricting corsets and huge overbearing skirts if they wished to ride bike, (can you imagine, riding so restricted) and so came bloomers. Women in trousers was an unseemly sight at the time and many of these women were accused of being prostitutes. It was the apparent masculinization of women that people feared.

Today, all of us ride bike and we all strive to give other women a place to go to talk about an activity that is still heavily dominated by men. So my feminist, raise your femifists!

[redrhodie]

Absolutely! I was lucky to be born in the late '60s, after a lot had already been accomplished, but I know the struggle that my mother's generation had. Because of them, growing up, I knew I could be whatever I wanted. I don't take that for granted.

In my personal experience I haven't seen any bias based on my gender, even on the bike.

[WrensMom]

Of course! After all, feminism is the belief that women are people. And I am the mother of 3 girls, all of whom I have the highest hopes and dreams for. It always floors me to encounter sexist attitudes from people with daughters:confused:

[Zen]

Did you know that bicycling revolutionized and liberated women unlike any other invention!
I'd say it's still serving that purpose ;) but yes, it was quite scandalous at first for a woman to ride a bicycle.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

It's not so easy to separate 'feminist' women from 'non-feminist' women anymore. Certainly there is far less clearcut a difference as there was back in the 60's.
I mean, even a woman who feels '''a woman's place is in the home etc''' might surprise you in her ferocity to make sure her daughter gets a college degree or an equal-pay job. She might well be out there doing things that promote women's wellbeing in ways that might not be so obviously 'feminist' yet have a huge positive impact on women just the same. I have also met a few politically active feminists who fight all sorts of marvelous pro-women fights and yet they also do things unaware, things that are negative or unfair to certain kinds of women. I see glimpses of myself in both scenarios sometimes.

We are all are complex products of our infinite background experiences, and we all exhibit fascinating combinations of our various beliefs and passions.

I tend to look at the overall tone of society as opposed to trying to categorize people as being either on one side or the other. I do see a positive shift since 1960 in the general attitude of society towards women in some ways, and in other ways things have actually become worse. Sadly, sometimes even women themselves take an active part in their own trivialization. Yet ironically feminism is 'supposed' to support a woman's choices to do that as well. ;) Sort of like "I defend your right to not defend your rights'. :cool: It's often shades of grey with fuzzy boundaries.

But overall I see a two steps forward one step back kind of change since that time when my generation was 'burning their bras'.

[Pax]

Absolutely! Alive and well here in the Midwest.

It's been a long time since I marched on the Statehouse in support of the ERA but I still try to fight the good fight.

[Marissa]

Absolutely! Heck, my great-great-grandmother not only kept her maiden name, her husband took it when they were married. (I actually took my husband's name, so it's not a big issue for me, but I love telling the story.) I come from a long line of feminists. :)

[papaver]

My grandmother ran away to the states when she was 18 (that was in 1919). It was a huge scandal in her town. A woman alone taking the boat to the states was unheard of! She traveled throughout the states for a full year, working here and there (dunno how she did it, but she did) and 12 months later she came back. As an independant, headstrong woman.

My mother is also a very liberal woman, she always earned a lot more money than my father (but he didn't mind). And she gave us three (I have 2 brothers) a very feminist upbringing. The boys learned to cook, to iron, to do the dishes (as well as the very boyish things like carpentry and such) and so did I. I can cook, I can do flooring, electricity,... and we are very very grateful for that.

And oh yes, we all love to cycle. :D My mom is now in her mid-seventies and every day she rides at least 20 miles.

[shootingstar]

I was born in 1959.

Some women react strangely to the term "feminist". They don't want to describe themselves as such but if you took away their right to vote, to determine their life path, right to education, equal pay..you'll hear something from them.

An all women's cycling group is less unusual these days compared to 15 years ago. But depends on which part of North America. Cyclists are just still odd in certain areas. :p

I agree with Bleeckergirl's comments that some women do trivialize their own freedoms...which were hard won by the previous generation(s).

I would like to think every woman at some point of their lives, recognizes the aha time/moments of becoming the best of what they are...and helping other people along the way.

Do you bike often?

[tribogota]

And if you include anti racist, anti homophobic, and anti classist then I am a feminist. I am happy about the achievements, but as much as some women have achieved many "rights and privileges" others still cannot afford the luxury of riding a bike! (No need to look further than the class and racial make-up of the sport of cycling and triathlon in the world.)

[Zen]

We still have a long way to go, baby.

[Crankin]

I pretty much agree with what Lisa said. I find that some younger women don't realize what "rights" they have, but mostly the younger people I go to grad school with are pretty out there with feminism. So are the men, actually.
I was at the younger end of the "bra burners," but it had a huge effect on me, although I am no way radical (well, maybe to some). I think the main effect it had was that I decided I would always be able to support myself and always work, even if I had kids. A lot of people gave me cr*p for that one.
This is the first time in my life that I haven't worked. Even though I am in school and we can well afford this, I don't like feeling dependent.
Truthfully, I don't feel bad about being able to have a bike and ride. I worked for whatever I have. But, I do think that we should work on getting bikes to middle school aged girls; riding promotes independence and a healthy life style.

[shootingstar]

But, I do think that we should work on getting bikes to middle school aged girls; riding promotes independence and a healthy life style.

Yea, a LONG way to go here on this one. Lessen the huge focus in teen years on body image, etc.

While it's great to see some women pick up cycling again much later in life, there are alot more teens that could benefit from lots of encouragement or mechanisms to make cycling efforts seen as cool or just simply more socially acceptable among their peers.

[OakLeaf]

What Shootingstar said (born in the same year, too).

I'm not active in the movement at the moment, if that's what you're asking. But those who are have my wholehearted support - yes I do believe that women are human beings.

[Jewell]

I'm heavily involved as a feminist and plan to be getting a major in environmental studies and women studies (only a year left, hooray). There's still a lot of work left to be done, let me tell you!

I'm reminded of this everyday from the way women are portrayed on tv (ever realize on Seinfeld how George always went out with gorgeous women or how only certain body types get leading roles), to the ever present heterosexism in society, to the normalcy of racism in every facet of life.

I find it difficult when it can seem like we've come far by all modern appearances, yet women are still treated as a object of desire, even by the most enlightened of men. Many times men's language of women does little to support the idea that women are equal. Feminism is such an f-word that few women embrace it and even less men can utter the word. Its so nice to see a good proportion of women on there embracing it!

I do think that beauty image is a big hurdle for many women to over come if they want to cycle, not just for teenagers. Of course Copenhageners (http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/) have greatly overcome this issue. I know many women who would have trouble commuting due to their need to fulfill the mainstream image of beauty. Its really unfortunate that for many the need maintain their appearance is almost OCD in nature...

[Crankin]

Jewell, we still *do* have a long way to go. And there is an ever present degree of racism/heterosexism around.
But, I guess with the perspective of age, I have to say that most people aren't thinking about this. I am not saying this is right, but most people just go about living their lives. If there is an act of egregious racism, sexism, etc., then many would respond. But, on the whole, most white, Christian, heterosexual people don't "get" the racism that a lot live with.

I don't feel like I am fulfilling anyone's image of beauty. I like making myself look good for myself. That includes making myself healthy and fit through sports. I think some people get turned off of the word "feminism" because many feminists give the opinion that if you wear make up, dress up etc. you are doing it because of society's expectations on women. I mean, my husband likes buying clothes, looking good, staying young and fit as we age. He's not doing it to please society any more than I am.

[Pax]

Unfortunately, many feminists in the US tend to wear blinders thinking that we've got it pretty good so why raise a fuss. We forget that women all over the world are treated worse than livestock, raped, beaten, subjected to "honor" killings...

Just today on CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/10/saudi.court.wife.slapping/index.html?iref=mpstoryview), yet another example of why we have to remain vigilant.

[PamNY]

I do think that beauty image is a big hurdle for many women to over come if they want to cycle, not just for teenagers. Of course Copenhageners (http://www.copenhagencyclechic.com/) have greatly overcome this issue. I know many women who would have trouble commuting due to their need to fulfill the mainstream image of beauty. Its really unfortunate that for many the need maintain their appearance is almost OCD in nature...

I don't understand this comment. I see many women who look like the commuters in those photographs of Copenhagen. I haven't conducted a survey, but I'm sure fear of being squashed by a bus or having a bike stolen is a much bigger issue than helmet hair.

Honestly, I've never given a thought to how I look when cycling, and have never even heard it discussed outside this forum.

Pam

[Grog]

If you're looking for a closer place to be an active feminist these days, try Canada. The number of steps backwards being taken these last few years is apalling.

http://www.straight.com/article-204929/women%3F%3Fs-groups-protest-stephen-harper%3F%3Fs-budget-outside-united-nations

I still can't wrap my heads about unions being FINED for helping women fight for pay equity.

[OakLeaf]

I don't understand this comment. I see many women who look like the commuters in those photographs of Copenhagen. I haven't conducted a survey, but I'm sure fear of being squashed by a bus or having a bike stolen is a much bigger issue than helmet hair.

Honestly, I've never given a thought to how I look when cycling, and have never even heard it discussed outside this forum.

Pam

that link that CC posted a week or so ago claimed that the #1 reason women don't commute is because we don't want to get to work sweaty; with hair being a close second.

I agree, actually. I've done my share of getting to work sweaty, and without a shower (just trying to clean up in the bathroom sink) I stuck out like a sore thumb even in a pretty relaxed business environment.

Not quite sure what that has to do with feminism though... do you think men are more tolerant of other men being sweaty in a business environment, than they are of women?

[Irulan]

I quit labeling myself a feminist back in the mid 80s'. I was raised by what you might call an original feminist - my mom was a working mom in the 50's and 60's and I was raised by housekeepers. Between Gloria Steinem and bra burning, and political protests, I was raised in the thick of it. I took a lot of what the movement was teaching as gospel until I started living a real world life.

I dropped the label about 1984, when my husband was working 70-90 hours a week, and I was a student. I got really sick of having to explain to people that "splitting the housework 50/50" was at the minimum a really stupid idea, and more realistically, just not practical when he was pulling 36 hour shifts (with no sleep) in the oil field, and I was going to school. We much prefer the "everyone does something until the work is done" MO around here, as compared to a theoretical 50/50 thing.

Then I had kids. Boy, talk about dirty looks and getting devalued by your "sisters" when you choose to be a stay at home mom...

My personal belief is that a lot of the feminist movement has damaged families, and devalued men's roles in a healthy balanced family and relationships. How many families were torn apart because some woman had to go "find herself"? Or, kids still being raised by day care because the family is not a priority?

I know, I must sound like a dinosaur here. Maybe so. I believe it's important to value the differences that men and have, and to celebrate them. It's as important to look as the roles that have been forced onto men as it is to apply the same concept to women. Everyone is oppressed is someway or another, women shouldn't corner the market on it.

[sundial]

I'm a feminine feminist. ;) I appreciate the small pleasures of maintaining a nice, comfortable, clean home for my husband, cooking, running errands for him, and doing whatever he needs so that all he needs to do is focus on his work. I also enjoy wearing things that remind me of an era gone by.....skorts.......long skirts.....hats.....things that make me feel...feminine. :) And being a white Christian lady I guess you could say that I am in a minority and I face a lot of "isms" as well.

[PamNY]

Not quite sure what that has to do with feminism though... do you think men are more tolerant of other men being sweaty in a business environment, than they are of women?

If you are asking me: nothing to do with feminism. I spoke up simply because I see quite a few elegantly-dressed women commuters.

Pam

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

For me feminism is an attitude about yourself and women- it's a way of life, it's not defined or rated by taking a class or going to a protest march (not that those things aren't also valid). It's a personal belief system built upon self worth, and is reflected on a daily basis in the way you live and the way you relate to, communicate with, and help others.

[lph]

My personal belief is that a lot of the feminist movement has damaged families, and devalued men's roles in a healthy balanced family and relationships. How many families were torn apart because some woman had to go "find herself"? Or, kids still being raised by day care because the family is not a priority?

I know, I must sound like a dinosaur here. Maybe so. I believe it's important to value the differences that men and have, and to celebrate them. It's as important to look as the roles that have been forced onto men as it is to apply the same concept to women. Everyone is oppressed is someway or another, women shouldn't corner the market on it.

At first reading I didn't agree with you, as I didn't see why feminism should equate to not putting family as a priority. I feel feminism should be simply having more options, including the option to choose whether I want to prioritize family or not. But I see you worded it as the "feminist movement", and that may well be, that everything other than women having careers has been frowned upon. That may be the price to pay, for raising consciousness around women's roles.

I don't feel that the differences between men and women per se are that important though, I feel that the differences are between people. No-one should feel themselves stuck in a mold they can't break out of, no matter their gender, and yes, men have definitely been pushed into roles too. Roles with more power and status, but roles nonetheless.

I don't know what to call it, but I subscribe to "gender-free role thinking" more than I would call myself a classic feminist.

[Thorn]

I don't know what to call it, but I subscribe to "gender-free role thinking" more than I would call myself a classic feminist.

Yeah, that's it. lph, you have a great way of putting things simple and clear.

I've feared that this thread would devolve into name calling. Let's face it, feminist is used as both an f-word and having a humpty-dumpty "it means what I think it means not what you think it means" usage.

It is just as wrong for someone to look down at a stay-at-home mom as it is for someone to say that all women should stay at home. I don't think either of those sentiments is correct. We should, however, whatever our gender may be, be able to choose the role that fits us and to be equally respected in that role.

To bring this down to a bicycling related item, last weekend I rode with a man who worked at the local hospital. As part of small talk, I asked what he did there.....he almost apologetically stated that he was a nurse. Eh? Apologize for being a nurse? Yet almost every male nurse I've met responds similarly. That's sad.

[Crankin]

Irulan and lph you said what I wanted to say much more eloquently. When I studied feminist therapy earlier in the year, I realized that there are even large schisms between what different feminist theories purport.
I think a lot of people devalue men, too. My DH cannot stand the way men are shown to be absolutely stupid in much of the media, in particular in regards to care of the home and children. Is he so unusual?
As far as the cycling goes, well, I didn't like getting to work sweaty, with helmet hair, either. But because I care about cycling, I learned to keep hygiene supplies at work, clean up in the sink, and look totally presentable with the clothes I kept in my closet a work. Riding to work was a priority for me, hence I made the effort. I find that even thinking about the effort is the deal killer for a lot of people, both men and women. In my 9 years at my last job, only one other person ever rode.

[Zen]

How many families were torn apart because some woman had to go "find herself"?
I'm sure there are men who do that as well.
Or, kids still being raised by day care because the family is not a priority?

Does that mean only women can care for children?
I'm no fan of day care (or kids, for that matter) but sometimes it's what has to be done. Many couples with children aren't disciplined enough to get by on one salary.
Then there's the single parent. Day care is sometimes a necessity.

[Crankin]

I am not going to start an argument here. Really.
But, out in the real world, there are 2 very nice, well adjusted young men in their 20's.
They are mine. They were in various kinds of day care starting at age 6 weeks for the youngest (OK, that was part time, with dad doing the rest for the first year) and four months.
If you really want my opinion, most people don't know how to be parents and *that* is the problem.

[Irulan]

ok ok, leaving the day care issue out of it...(I shouldn't have thrown that into the mix, sorry) There's plenty to say about feminism without that.

I do think that modern contemporary feminism ( and much of our culture) teaches "me first" for women, at the sacrifice of families and partnerships. My experience as a tail end boomer, (1960) is that the mind set of feminism is that the value of an individual's WOMAN's needs, even when in a family, is greater than the value of the other members of the families needs. The ostracizing of women who choose be a primary care giver/SAHM is not imaginary; it's very real. Maybe less so than in the 80's when I had mine, but I got a LOT of crap for it.
Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.

I do accept that women's roles were limited by society for a long time, and that a lot of opportunities have been created in contemporary times. But I don't buy the 50/50 thing at all, and I don't buy devaluing of men especially by some women's studies programs (putting flame suit on)

Maybe I sound bitter; I don't know. My values have moved way center from the liberal, feminist, extreme left wing household I was raised in. I've experienced personally families destroyed by women leaving not horrible situations, just because they "needed" to do something new or different that didn't include the children they bore and the family they should have committed to. Never mind the abandoned children left behind. I have experienced first hand the hate and disdain for men that some women have for men in the name of feminism, sisterhood and women's rights and it makes me really sad.

Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.

[malkin]

Bicycling is Revolutionary!

It goes 'round and 'round, doesn't it?

[brewer]

{{{comrade malkin}}}

http://www.sharedocs.net/pics/soviet.gif

[ilima]

What you describe is a very warped view of feminism. And I'm not attributing the ideas to you, only that you're the messenger/you experienced that narrow minded view.

It doesn't mean splitting everything 50/50. That is, of course, preposterous. It does mean that there should be a discussion of who does what and that normal gender roles should not be assumed. In the house I grew up in both my parents worked. My mom cooked and cleaned. My dad mowed the lawn and took out the trash. He also unloaded the dishwasher and did the laundry.

And for the record, I would definitely would unabashedly call myself a feminist. I'm not afraid to say it one bit.

[ilima]

ok ok, leaving the day care issue out of it...(I shouldn't have thrown that into the mix, sorry) There's plenty to say about feminism without that.

I do think that modern contemporary feminism ( and much of our culture) teaches "me first" for women, at the sacrifice of families and partnerships. My experience as a tail end boomer, (1960) is that the mind set of feminism is that the value of an individual's WOMAN's needs, even when in a family, is greater than the value of the other members of the families needs. The ostracizing of women who choose be a primary care giver/SAHM is not imaginary; it's very real. Maybe less so than in the 80's when I had mine, but I got a LOT of crap for it.
Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.

I do accept that women's roles were limited by society for a long time, and that a lot of opportunities have been created in contemporary times. But I don't buy the 50/50 thing at all, and I don't buy devaluing of men especially by some women's studies programs (putting flame suit on)

Maybe I sound bitter; I don't know. My values have moved way center from the liberal, feminist, extreme left wing household I was raised in. I've experienced personally families destroyed by women leaving not horrible situations, just because they "needed" to do something new or different that didn't include the children they bore and the family they should have committed to. Never mind the abandoned children left behind. I have experienced first hand the hate and disdain for men that some women have for men in the name of feminism, sisterhood and women's rights and it makes me really sad.

Maybe I'm stuck on the 60's and 70's version of bra burning feminism and separatism because that's what I experienced. I shed the label for myself early on so maybe I haven't kept up with the new iterations.

As Zen said, every one of those things that 'bad' feminists do, men do as well. Dump their family because of a 'mid-life crisis,' put their needs before their wives or their kids. Not saying that's a victory by any means. Just challenging the idea that mom must be the primary care giver.

And one group that is ostracized even more than SAHMs? SAHDs!! That shouldn't be the case!

[shootingstar]

As an aside, I'm interested in knowing brewer's identity since person has only 1 post. :D

The horrible reality is if a woman does choose to become a full-time housewife, mother at home and she is not in the paid work force for a long time, meaning 5-10 yrs., she might risk relevancy of her work-related skills prior to full-time at home. I'm sure several of us, know personally several mothers who suddenly were divorced and hence, had to find paid work. So keeping one foot in the paid workforce, is like a insurance mechanism if something goes awry with the primary breadwinner. ie. s/he might get laid off, become accidentally disabled, etc.

Some professions, particularily the professions involving legislated certification, testing and licensing requires that the person practices in their profession, at least part-time, to keep their knowledge and skill set up to date. So this internal professional pressure applies for men or women of that profession. Or their trained skill set prior to full-time-at-home parent phase, is tied deeply to technological changes, changes in legislation, diagnostic methods which some jobs are.

Hence, feminism provides the woman if she wishes, to develop more effective, long-term coping mechanisms that benefits her family and herself in the long-term.

Nowadays one would be hard-pressed to believe that any woman at some point in her life, could live her whole lifetime and not thought in some small way the choices that she wanted to make and explaining her reasons to others. The sad thing, do all men go through this? I doubt it. Some thankfully, have approached their options thoughtfully, ie. becoming a father or not becoming a father, impact of their job location on family, etc.

[Jewell]

Comrade Malkin, so glad to have you.

I've heard at length the separation period in feminism. I often think of a new movement as almost like a individual in and of itself, which is prone to have reactions and emotions. I think of the separation period as the reactionary period, the dawning of a new movement, a stage of enlightenment for many women. They reacted as any person would react. I liken it to finding out a loved one really doesn't have your true interests in mind, which I think was a feeling these women were truly feeling in their place in life.

The movement has grown and changed and continues to expand in many different ways.

I think focusing too much on ones frustrations with a movement can really do injustice for a movement that's given us women so much. Its so easy to focus on the negative sides of feminism, but we forget what we have in common, we forget whats is really at stake today.

For Example:

How many women and girls suffer from anorexia and bulimia because they don't fit into the mainstream media's beauty idea?
How many welfare mom's get stereotyped over and over again for being bad mothers when the fathers receive little if any repercussions?
Why do we still disallow gay marriage in most of the country?
Why is viagra covered under insurance, but birth control is not?
Why are women continually objectified in all forms of media? We've started to think little of it because now more and more men are being objectified as well, but just because the objectification is becoming more uniform doesn't mean its still not wrong


I am leaving out a lot of racial discrimination, but as a white women I am privileged and do not know the issues many black women must face.

Someone mentioned earlier that man are oppressed as well. I do not disagree one bit. I believe that being in the consumerist society is greatly oppressive to men, no doubt about it. I'm of the belief that capitalism is at the core of the issue, but the oppression of women developed as an expression of the oppression men felt in such a society. The oppression of women is an expression of hurt, of pain that men felt. Women in turn were devalued to be little more than possession. Today of course we've come long way. Women are valued more, but we're still socialized to think its ok to objectify women, to believe women are less than men. Continuing this can be damaging to men, and that's something we often don't address.

[Tuckervill]

There are ways to remain viable for employment and still not be in the workforce. I have gained many valuable skills as a stay-at-home mom that I might not have been given the opportunity to acquire if I had had a 9-to-5er for the last 15 years.

I just heard the other day that the unpaid work I do as a family manager is worth about $122,000 a year in today's economy.

Last week I went in on business to see an acquaintance who knows me from my volunteer work. I told her I was thinking about going into her field when I am free to do so in a few years. She handed me her card and said, "Come work for me!" She was serious. She knows how hard I work at my volunteer endeavors. She knows how hard it is to do what I do as a volunteer and still take care of my family.

I don't think the work I do at home is undervalued by the whole of society. I think certain segments of our society disdain it (feminists? eh, maybe. The word alone rankles me.) I also know there are certain segments of our society who hold it in high esteem (mostly religious communities). Fortunately, I don't get my self-worth from what some segments of society think of what I do. I get it from doing the right thing for me and my family.

I remember when there were commercials on TV about "displaced homemakers", advertising classes that would teach them marketable skills (typing pool?) so they could work after being dumped by their husbands and being "just" a homemaker for so long. Maybe the word they actually used was "housewives"...I can't recall. Anyway, if there are still women around who would be left in the lurch by a man who leaves them with no income and no way to make one, then that is a unimaginative woman who has not been paying attention the last 30 years. ::shrug:::

Karen

[ilima]

So keeping one foot in the paid workforce, is like a insurance mechanism if something goes awry with the primary breadwinner. ie. s/he might get laid off, become accidentally disabled, etc.


Insurance policy. That, I think, is why I would never pull myself out of the workforce entirely for very long. Husbands die and that million dollar policy doesn't go far when you have a mortgage to pay off and young ones to put through college.

If other people (whether it's mom or dad) want to do it, that's fine. It's something I probably wouldn't do, though.

Even more frightening to me than becoming a SAHM (i.e., jumping in without a life jacket/insurance policy) would be to become (or be married to) a workaholic that only has fleeting interactions with the kids & spouse.

[shootingstar]

There are ways to remain viable for employment and still not be in the workforce. I have gained many valuable skills as a stay-at-home mom that I might not have been given the opportunity to acquire if I had had a 9-to-5er for the last 15 years.

I just heard the other day that the unpaid work I do as a family manager is worth about $122,000 a year in today's economy.

Last week I went in on business to see an acquaintance who knows me from my volunteer work. I told her I was thinking about going into her field when I am free to do so in a few years. She handed me her card and said, "Come work for me!" She was serious. She knows how hard I work at my volunteer endeavors. She knows how hard it is to do what I do as a volunteer and still take care of my family.

I don't think the work I do at home is undervalued by the whole of society. I think certain segments of our society disdain it (feminists? eh, maybe. The word alone rankles me.) I also know there are certain segments of our society who hold it in high esteem (mostly religious communities). Fortunately, I don't get my self-worth from what some segments of society think of what I do. I get it from doing the right thing for me and my family.

Karen

I agree that's all sorts of unpaid work that can be transferrable for other types of jobs. Some jobs just won't allow it if the women stays out of her profession for several years without practicing it. It's not impossible, but she might have to take a sideways career change if she can't convince prospective employers of her choice.

I have several sisters --one is family physician. She will work for the rest of life..because she has a baby of 1 yrs. old. Her hubby is a cook and I believe can only work part-time. So that he looks after baby. Clearly in her profession she has to keep her foot in paid work as a physician. Doctor-sister actually can work part-time..because doctors get paid well and she saved money before she even met her hubby. Will she give up such working privileges? Hell no, besides, she has no choice. A drive 100 kms. 1 way to get to work at her hospital.

Another sister is a llcensed hospital pharmacist with 3 children under 11 yrs. old. She is involved on patient care teams, in clinical drug trials and is a preceptor for pharmacy university students. Her drug therapy knowledge must be kept active and and alive by practicing it. Yes, her children are in daycare..they stick to the same one for past 10 yrs.

And contrast to a 3rd sister, who was a licensed hospital pharmacist who decided to be a stay at home mom full time. (She did have her own yoga centre for 2 yrs. Long story behind this one but she was actually successful..but chose not to continue.) She couldn't do community/retail pharmacist work because of various ethical issues /situations that she saw. So she left the profession, which is not unusual in terms of just leaving something one doesn't believe in/can't change certain institutional /systemic things.

[smurfalicious]

But, on the whole, most white, Christian, heterosexual people don't "get" the racism that a lot live with.

Whoa! The race card and the religion card all rolled into one. Huh, maybe I'll check out synagogues over the weekend so I can "get it." I mean, I've never had anyone bash or mock my faith and life has been a bed of roses. I've never had so called enlightened, liberal folks look down on me and assume I wasn't as intelligent or worthy as they because I'm a country girl and prefer that way of life (at least I know how to grow my own food from veggies to beef to eggs should the world go mad). I especially like the comments from these same people about "rednecks" and how we're everything wrong with the world. Can't even tell you how many times my age has made me less capable, less knowledgeable, whatever. Ageism goes, both ways. Oh, and let me tell you Hillary has 2 mommies went over awesome in my small town. Awe-haw-some! I like to think of myself as "heteroflexible" so there are lesbians out there who hate me (oh the irony). And what about the people our culture refers to as "white trash?" You don't think they encounter prejudice?

I don't label myself a feminist because I think what it has become is a joke and insult to amazing women who actually broke ground for us. It seems now that calling yourself a feminist is an excuse to be a flippant b***h while expecting others to tolerate it. There seems to be an attitude that if one man pays you less, all men are to blame. A lot of two wrongs still not adding up to a right.

So I'd call myself a strong woman, modeled after the strongest woman I know, my mom. Like ShootingStar pointed out, my mom gave up drafting to raise us kids and once we were school age she would do upholstery while we were in school. Unfortunately after my parents divorced she was out of luck because no one drafts on a board anymore. She tried to take CAD classes but my dad made it hard for her. So she was stuck and worked her butt off to take care of us. For years she suffered at my dad's hands to try and do what she thought was best for us kids, keep the family together. That was kind of the prevailing attitude then.

To this day I watch her kick butt and take names. She got her contractors license after a full knee replacement. She's doing what she knows, and loves, and every day it makes me proud of her.

I guess I pick and choose my battles. It's like this gal I'm living with, she complains so much that none of it matters anymore. I stand up for myself, by myself, and hopefully that will mean someone else down the road won't have to.

And lets be a skosh honest with ourselves. If men didn't see us as objects of desire eventually we'd have an epic fail as a species.

[shootingstar]

Actually smurf, it wouldn't be surprising that there are still not alot of black women or women of East Indian descent that cycle regularily. Do you see alot of them in women's or girls' cycling competitions or in regular cycling groups?

It's not that our group here would wilfully exclude these women (or be racist), but our socialization patterns probably affect how to influence, how to make our sport TRULY widespread to all segments of society. And that starts opening our eyes really wide..on who and how others are mentored in cycling. We just forget or don't ...notice.

And I was cycling and involved in the cycling advocacy scene with women in Toronto for 5 years where there is a huge black population. Hmmm, I think we had less than 2-3 black women attend our cycling rides, conferences (200 women attended per conference) and workshops.

Probably a broader range of different outreach efforts needs to be done.

I'm just trying to relate feminism...still to cycling. :o

[Mr. Bloom]

OK Jewell, I'm curious: What is the male equivalent of "feminism"? That is, what is to men, like feminism is to women? I'll also be curious as to your views on how that concept of the "male equivalency" coexists with what I believe your definition of feminism is...without one being subordinate to the other. :)


I'm of the belief that capitalism is at the core of the issue,
I couldn't DISagree more. Don't confuse consumerism or social injustice with capitalism. A capitalist saves without flaunting...and social justice allows capitalism to thrive. Your attribution to capitalism is very misguided in my humble opinion.

Keep in mind, your views are not just a function of your observations of society, but also the perspective that you possess in making those observations. There are others who have a different perspective who shouldn't feel minimized because they see it differently than you do.;)

For example:

...ever realize on Seinfeld how George always went out with gorgeous women
you see, I always saw George as the negative point of that...he expected physical attributes of others that he could never attain or possess himself...and was satified with nothing less. Kinda sad...since Hitler did the same thing in defining an ideal appearance that was the opposite of his own physical characteristics.

[Crankin]

I am sorry you feel that way, Smurf. I am not bashing you, your religion, race, or sexuality. In fact, I don't even know you. So, I am not sure where your comments came from, except that it sounds like some narrow minded people have not been nice to you.
Being White, Christian, and heterosexual are positions of power and majority in this country. Most people do not give a thought about how this gives you privileges. We just don't think about it.

[Pax]

Respect is a two way street. I admire stay at home parents, I think they made some wonderful financial decisions so that one parent could stay home and raise their children. Those SAHP's who feel they've been ridiculed should be happy in the knowledge that they had the financial ability to make the choice. Perhaps those who were disrespectful to them simply didn't understand the commitment required?

As for me, I have no kids and when I was a young woman I was tired of being told what I couldn't do, "girls can't be astronauts/firefighters/construction workers...". So, instead of listening to the naysayers I went out and became a professional firefighter in 1983, at that time there were less than 100 of us in the world. I was treated like absolute ****, was put in hazardous situations just to see if I would "man up". I never filed a complaint, I never got nasty, I just worked very very hard at the job until I earned the grudging respect of the people on my department. I'm not a strong orator so I decided to be the kind of feminist who used action rather than words to try and make a difference.

[Zen]

And lets be a skosh honest with ourselves. If men didn't see us as objects of desire eventually we'd have an epic fail as a species.

From a scientific standpoint that's not true at all.If men are on earth solely to preserve the species, there is already enough DNA in sperm banks to last for ages.

[sfa]

I remember when there were commercials on TV about "displaced homemakers", advertising classes that would teach them marketable skills (typing pool?) so they could work after being dumped by their husbands and being "just" a homemaker for so long. Maybe the word they actually used was "housewives"...I can't recall. Anyway, if there are still women around who would be left in the lurch by a man who leaves them with no income and no way to make one, then that is a unimaginative woman who has not been paying attention the last 30 years. ::shrug:::

Karen

I work at a community college and we have lots of programs for "displaced homemakers" and every year they are full and have waiting lists. They are for programs in health care, business, child care, hospitality, and pretty much any program that offers job training and a career ladder to allow someone to get into the workforce and be able to support her family. The stories from these women are heartwrenching. Most never had any education after high school and little, if any, experience working before getting married and having children. Most are young--women who had children at 17 and 18 and 19 years old and are now 22 or 23 or 25 and divorced and unable to support themselves or their children. Many, many, many of them were in abusive relationships where suggesting that getting an education or a job would have been met with violence. Maybe they didn't pay attention, or were in denial, or were so abused that they couldn't think, or maybe they thought, just as most people thing, that the worst would never happen to them. Unimaginative? Sure. But it's a pretty common affliction (also seen in workers who are shocked when they lose their jobs and haven't updated their resumes in 15 years and in recent college grads who are convinced that they will be the one to beat the odds and find a great job in this economy).

The programs themselves are no different than the programs for the general population, but the "displaced homemaker" programs have more supports--scholarships, child care support, mentoring, interview skills, professional skills, etc.

Sarah

[Irulan]

I don't label myself a feminist because I think what it has become is a joke and insult to amazing women who actually broke ground for us. It seems now that calling yourself a feminist is an excuse to be a flippant b***h while expecting others to tolerate it. There seems to be an attitude that if one man pays you less, all men are to blame. A lot of two wrongs still not adding up to a right.

Thanks Smurf for hitting the nail on the head for me.




How many women and girls suffer from anorexia and bulimia because they don't fit into the mainstream media's beauty idea?

Plenty of men suffer from it too, they just don't get the press that women do. What about the pressure to have great abs? Men who get 'roided out for pressure to get all muscular? Men have as much pressure these days as women do.



How many welfare mom's get stereotyped over and over again for being bad mothers when the fathers receive little if any repercussions?[/LIST]

You haven't hear Bill Cosby rant about absent fathers lately?




Why do we still disallow gay marriage in most of the country?[/LIST]

What does gay marriage have to do with feminism?




Why is viagra covered under insurance, but birth control is not?[/LIST]

This is a broad brush statement that may or may not be true, depending on your coverage.




Why are women continually objectified in all forms of media? We've started to think little of it because now more and more men are being objectified as well, but just because the objectification is becoming more uniform doesn't mean its still not wrong
[/LIST]


to paraphrase...

Why are PEOPLE continually objectified in all forms of media?

[Jewell]

OK Jewell, I'm curious: What is the male equivalent of "feminism"? That is, what is to men, like feminism is to women? I'll also be curious as to your views on how that concept of the "male equivalency" coexists with what I believe your definition of feminism is...without one being subordinate to the other.

The male equivalent of feminism? This could become a very interesting in-depth discussion if you truly wish to understand how men can support women in the feminist plight. Though, I'm not sure that is what your really asking. Sounds like your fishing for something else. Men can be feminists, I know men who call themselves feminists, but I also know men who rather call themselves pro-feminist. Their reasoning can be quite in-depth, and its not something I think I can full address here.


I couldn't DISagree more. Don't confuse consumerism or social injustice with capitalism. A capitalist saves without flaunting...and social justice allows capitalism to thrive. Your attribution to capitalism is very misguided in my humble opinion.

I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned capitalism. Its so difficult for us rich westerns to understand the negative side of capitalism. Many of us are rewarded by it so much so we can't imagine how its functioning allows social injustice to fester throughout the world. Its a charged topic, I shouldn't have mentioned it. Misguided, no, mindful, yes.


Keep in mind, your views are not just a function of your observations of society, but also the perspective that you possess in making those observations. There are others who have a different perspective who shouldn't feel minimized because they see it differently than you do.

For example:

you see, I always saw George as the negative point of that...he expected physical attributes of others that he could never attain or possess himself...and was satified with nothing less. Kinda sad...since Hitler did the same thing in defining an ideal appearance that was the opposite of his own physical characteristics.

George is an example I gave to describe the horrible beauty standards that are expected of women tv compared to men. Regardless of what kind of character you think George is, look at any show on tv and you will see amazing disparity between beauty standards of men and women.

Its so interesting how the very mention of women's rights brings up so much hostility...

[Mr. Bloom]

Please don't deflect - I'm not being hostile, but I am challenging your perspective and I'm doing it without apology.

So, to the original question:

If women are free to be totally feminist and men are free to be 'masculist'', how do they coexist??

I would submit that it is in respecting their inherent differences rather than attacking and criticizing them. This is not about gender, but rather about respect...and being on the short end of respect is not uniquely female.

[Grog]

If women are free to be totally feminist and men are free to be 'masculist'', how do they coexist??

Not sure, but I think it's called "patriarchy" and it's existed for quite a bit of time. It's not really the "equivalent," or perhaps it's the "dialectical equivalent."

In my view, feminism has always been not so much about promoting one gender, but rather about reducing discrimination and constraints imposed by gender. Basically the idea that rights should be based on being human, not on being a man or a woman. Say, for example, property rights: it sucks not to be allowed to own property but to be property (of someone else) instead. There were quite a few reasons to believe that women were getting most of the discrimination and constraints, or at least getting the bum side of that deal. In Hegelian terms, you could say that the master also needs to be liberated. For example, even today it's extremely difficult for men to take parental leave (not six days but six months) in most occupations, even if in theory it's permitted by law and even partly supported financially by government and some employers. That's something that feminism around here is concerned about. Your mileage may vary.

It sure makes things a lot more complicated, but personally I have not yet given up on the general idea that there should be equal opportunities. I will admit though that, in 21st century Canada, given the choice, I'd pick being a woman. It seems a lot more difficult for men to bend gender roles, but I know quite a few around me that are doing it, and everyone's gaining from that.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

The male equivalent of feminism? This could become a very interesting in-depth discussion if you truly wish to understand how men can support women in the feminist plight....Men can be feminists, I know men who call themselves feminists, but I also know men who rather call themselves pro-feminist. Their reasoning can be quite in-depth, and its not something I think I can full address here.

He wasn't asking if men can be feminists. He's asking what the male equivalent of feminism is- as in 'masculinism'- and what that would be. Interesting...would 'masculinism' be automatically considered something chauvenistic, anti-women, or negative?, just as 'feminism' is often labeled as anti-men, radical, and negative as well? Can we see both feminism and masculinism as being positive, each in its own right?

[Pax]

...Can we see both feminism and masculinism as being positive, each in its own right?

I don't think so, when one group holds (or has held) significant power over another the oppressed seek out their own power. I don't think masculinism would work any more than "white power" works. Does that make any sense? :confused:

[Zen]

Makes perfect sense.

[Irulan]

Originally Posted by Mr. Silver
If women are free to be totally feminist and men are free to be 'masculist'', how do they coexist??



Not sure, but I think it's called "patriarchy" and it's existed for quite a bit of time. It's not really the "equivalent," or perhaps it's the "dialectical equivalent."

I disagree that patriarchy and masculist are equivilant.

I would think that "masculist" would investigate male role issues, including but not limited to male objectification and machismo, whereas patriarchy ( to me) implies the system of men running the world for the last few hundred/thousand

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I don't think so, when one group holds (or has held) significant power over another the oppressed seek out their own power. I don't think masculinism would work any more than "white power" works. Does that make any sense? :confused:

Unless masculinism is defined the same way we define feminism-
I would imagine masculinism could be defined as promoting non-stereotyping in male roles...for example giving more respect and support to stay-at-home fathers, single fathers, eliminating our society's stigma attached to males showing emotion and crying, etc.

The negative stereotype of feminism is of a bunch of women who hate men and want to get power from them. Why define masculinism the same way?
Ideally, both feminism and masculinism would be more about enabling both genders to discard stereotypical roles in society and be able to enjoy the same choices, the choices that are right for them as individuals of any sex.
Admittedly, choice-wise, things are currently lopsided. However I think that discouraging stereotyped roles for men would benefit everyone, including women.
I would think both feminism and masculinism would be about everyone being able to have the same choices in life without being subjected to ridicule and unfairness.

[Grog]

I would think that "masculist" would investigate male role issues, including but not limited to male objectification and machismo, whereas patriarchy ( to me) implies the system of men running the world for the last few hundred/thousand

I agree with you. I think that's what I meant by the "dialectical equivalent." I should have said "dialectic response."

It's just my opinion that feminism has embraced men questioning men role constraints as well. But the label is not very conducive to many men embracing it.

[ilima]

He wasn't asking if men can be feminists. He's asking what the male equivalent of feminism is- as in 'masculinism'- and what that would be. Interesting...would 'masculinism' be automatically considered something chauvenistic, anti-women, or negative?, just as 'feminism' is often labeled as anti-men, radical, and negative as well? Can we see both feminism and masculinism as being positive, each in its own right?

Perhaps the recognition of the conflicts inherent in using the terms terms help to explain why some women's studies programs have been re-jiggered as 'gender studies' so as to, theoretically not be aligned with one gender or the other.

Still not too many men on those faculties, though.

[Pax]

Isn't it ironic, we were discussing women and womens issues and the topic moves towards men and their issues. It's like it's not okay to focus on us, we're women and we don't want to make anyone feel left out.

[Irulan]

Isn't it ironic, we were discussing women and womens issues and the topic moves towards men and their issues. It's like it's not okay to focus on us, we're women and we don't want to make anyone feel left out.

I don't it like that as all - I see it as that men have issues as a result of historic cultural roles too. To deny that is (imsho) to have blinders on.

[Pax]

I don't it like that as all - I see it as that men have issues as a result of historic cultural roles too. To deny that is (imsho) to have blinders on.

It's okay to just talk about ourselves from time to time. We are different from men, our experiences, our upbringing, etc. I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about mens issues, but it's not necessary in every conversation where we're talking about woman.

[lph]

Well, speaking for myself I truly am more interested in rethinking and reinventing roles for both genders than I am in focussing on just women. No offense at all to those who are staunch feminists, and yes, I know full well that much of my freedom to do this was bought by diehard radical feminists, and I deeply appreciate that.

But I feel it's too one-sided to focus just on giving women more options and raising consciousness around their roles, especially when it comes to family, if men don't change their roles. Both for their own sake - after all they're half the population too ya know ;), but also for our sakes. It seems a lot more constructive to me to make this a joint effort to encourage/nudge/challenge both men and women into rethinking their options and making freer choices. And I am not comfortable calling this just "feminism".

Besides, rallying on one side does have a nasty way of creating battle lines that don't have to be there.

One of my pet peeves. A girl acting boyish is called a tomboy and is "cool". Lots of bonus points for getting her hands dirty and being macho. A boy acting girlish is a figure of ridicule. Classic feminine behaviour is accepted in a girl, but is still less acceptable in total than classic masculine behaviour, which has higher status.

eta: the OP asked who would call themselves "feminists", and from that the discussion evolved via those who wouldn't (and why) as much as those who would. So I don't agree that this discussion was "only" women and womens issues.

[ilima]

A boy acting girlish is a figure of ridicule. Classic feminine behaviour is accepted in a girl, but is still less acceptable in total than classic masculine behaviour, which has higher status.


In response to an article about gay marriage (I think), a gay man wrote a comment that he had been encouraged by a woman to fight misogyny instead of just focusing on gay issues. She argued to him that, at its core, discrimination against (stereotypically acting) gay men was a form of/dervied from misogyny.

As to the rest of your post, I totally agree that if you are striving for 'equality' for women you must include men in the equation. The expectation of husband as major breadwinner needs to be relaxed. Men shouldn't be stigmatized in the workplace for staying home with a sick kid, picking the kids up from school, etc. And every family needs to be able to figure out the balance on their own.

[OakLeaf]

I wonder what is the "White equivalent" of wanting African-American people to have equal rights?

[Pax]

Focusing solely on women for one brief thread on a web forum doesn't have to constitute the creation of a battle line. It simply means we had a discussion about women, by women. We don't have to feel bad or that we've excluded others or think it means we're not for equality. If we can't first ground ourselves in who we are and what our needs are then we approach the other half of the population lacking clear insight, again (as is so often the case) looking to their needs and responses first.

[Mr. Bloom]

In my view, feminism has always been not so much about promoting one gender, but rather about reducing discrimination and constraints imposed by gender. Basically the idea that rights should be based on being human, not on being a man or a woman.

Amen!:)

Now, I'm going for a ride!

[Tuckervill]

I work at a community college and we have lots of programs for "displaced homemakers" and every year they are full and have waiting lists. They are for programs in health care, business, child care, hospitality, and pretty much any program that offers job training and a career ladder to allow someone to get into the workforce and be able to support her family. The stories from these women are heartwrenching. Most never had any education after high school and little, if any, experience working before getting married and having children. Most are young--women who had children at 17 and 18 and 19 years old and are now 22 or 23 or 25 and divorced and unable to support themselves or their children. Many, many, many of them were in abusive relationships where suggesting that getting an education or a job would have been met with violence. Maybe they didn't pay attention, or were in denial, or were so abused that they couldn't think, or maybe they thought, just as most people thing, that the worst would never happen to them. Unimaginative? Sure. But it's a pretty common affliction (also seen in workers who are shocked when they lose their jobs and haven't updated their resumes in 15 years and in recent college grads who are convinced that they will be the one to beat the odds and find a great job in this economy).

The programs themselves are no different than the programs for the general population, but the "displaced homemaker" programs have more supports--scholarships, child care support, mentoring, interview skills, professional skills, etc.

Sarah

Those commercials were targeted towards, and portrayed, older women with older children.

Does your program actually use that term, "displaced homemaker"? I would find that creepy. Our local CC has programs for people who need those things, but they're not targeted at any particular segment or situation. They're available for whomever needs them.

Karen

[lph]

Another pet peeve: the focus on women's appearance, and our own touchiness about it.

My son got into a minor fight the other day at school, some girl pushed him, they bickered, and he had called her "Fatso". She was crushed. When asked about this at home he was a little sullen but surprised, because "mom, she's really slender". It was just a stray insult in a stupid argument.

So why is it that the worst, most insulting thing you can say to a girl, is that she's fat, or ugly? It's not a nice thing to say to a boy either, but there I think the equivalent worst insult would be "weak", or "cowardly". Girls get judged and judge themselves a lot from outer appearances, boys judge themselves more by skills and personality.

This is children, but I think this applies to adults as well. Honestly - would you be more insulted if someone called you fat, or if they called you a weakling? But when you think about it, wouldn't you rather BE strong and brave, instead of pretty and thin?

I think it's a shame that it's such a huge faux pas to ask a woman if she's expecting, and find out she wasn't pregnant at all. If she's put on that much weight, it can hardly be a surprise to her that it's visible to others. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could say to a friend "gee, you've got a little chunky, better lay off those chocolate chip cookies for a while" and laugh at it, and just let it go?

[Crankin]

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

[OakLeaf]

Crankin, I understand that on a general level (although I haven't read anything specific and that does sound interesting). My point was that the "male equivalent of a feminist" is a male feminist. Which entails all the understandings about gender identity (male, female and trans) that others have posted in this thread. It's unfortunate that some people are still stuck in a 1972 backlash stereotype of what it means to be a feminist.

And while I understand that it can be helpful to use a different word when the word "feminist" is loaded with backlash connotations in some circles, there's also a point to refusing to let our language be defined by those who oppose us.

[Crankin]

Personally, I have no issue with using the term "male feminist." It says to me that the person is a man, who believes in feminism's ideals.
I understand the opinions of all of the posters, but at this point, I think I have a bit of "language fatigue."
My classes are over for the year and I think I need a break from "The People's Republic of Cambridge..." But not a break from meeting my friends for drinks on Thursday.

[crazycanuck]

I need to say a few things about gender equality esp in Australia. This is mainly regarding Aboriginal Australians that live in very isolated places or in just plain isolated communities round the country.

I've never ever seen a male or female Aboriginal on a bike & if we do, it's normally not thier bike... Footy(aussie rules footy) however is widely promoted to these folks though. Why? Quite a few aboriginal players in footy & are able to identify with the awful living conditions & struggles in the isolated communities. Easier to play & every town or community has a footy oval of some sort.

The Aust media does try & show a positive side to the grog(alcohol) addicted females but they have a long way to go before they're considered equals to normal Australian females. Even with Mr Rudd offering the apology to the stolen generation, it did offer some hope to Aboriginal women but not the hope they need.

[shootingstar]

The Aust media does try & show a positive side to the grog(alcohol) addicted females but they have a long way to go before they're considered equals to normal Australian females. Even with Mr Rudd offering the apology to the stolen generation, it did offer some hope to Aboriginal women but not the hope they need.

But no doubt there are some Australian aboriginal women from those isolated communities, who are not self-abusive, who have surived and live their lives quietly. And not reported by the media.


Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.
On this last point that Crankin outlined, this might be what frustrates/infuriates some non-whites or some women, when others march around and say "people are people" and just put an end to any exploratory discussion. I am more willing to believe alot more the male nurse, stay-at-home daddy, etc. of how he is viewed as tied to traditionally female role, and what needs to be done by him, to counteract negative attitudes that are sexist, etc.

A person has to live for several years, every day , in a role/with an identity where the dominant, overriding societal attitude might disempower the value of that role to other more powerful, socially acceptable roles OR stereotype that person.

By the way, I perceive this cycling community, as generally, privileged despite our lowly (or cheaper than car) bikes and whatever difficult childhoods some of us may have: we are highly literate enough to express ourselves well here in the Internet (and many members here seem to have education beyond high school), and we can do it in the powerful worldwide language of English which is the de facto language of power in business, international politics, scientific communication worldwide etc. That is actually ALOT of power.

[Zen]

Personally, I have no issue with using the term "male feminist." It says to me that the person is a man, who believes in feminism's ideals.


That just makes me think "male nurse".
It's just nurse. And it's just feminist.

[shootingstar]

Very true, Zen.

Which is why we now have firefighter, police officer.. The change is language to more gender neutrality must be credited to the feminist pioneers who were boomers, the language war was waged over 20 yrs. ago. Now it's becoming a fabric of language.

Like Ms. :)

[Tuckervill]

Oakleaf, while this isn't the equivalent of African American equality for Whites, you might be interested in reading Carter's models of racial identity. He has one for African Americans, but he also has a White identity model. This isn't White identity as in "White Power," stuff, but more a model that allows White people to actually see themselves as White, the privilege it brings, and how your level of racial identity allows you to interact with African Americans or other visible minorities. It's very interesting, though a bit dense.
Basically, a lot of Whites think that "race doesn't matter," and that "people are people," which Carter calls Pre-Encounter and is the lowest level of racial identity.

You can find quiz for that online. Here's one: http://majorsmatter.net/race/WhiteIdentity.htm

Karen

[Tuckervill]

A person has to live for several years, every day , in a role/with an identity where the dominant, overriding societal attitude might disempower the value of that role to other more powerful, socially acceptable roles OR stereotype that person.


A good first step is just to realize it is possible that the view you hold of race as a white person could change if you got to experience life through someone else's eyes. (30 days (http://www.fxnetworks.com/shows/originals/30days/episodeguide.php#) is a great tool for that.) I often encounter this inability to empathize or to consider that someone else could see things differently when it comes to race/gender, etc. I wouldn't be exaggerating if I stated it is 99% men who I encounter with this inability to empathize.

Karen

[Biciclista]

great quiz Karen.
I haven't said much here because I was a part of the "bra burning" feminist movement and then saw how badly it backfired on us.
My grandmothers both worked hard to support their families during the depression when often my grandfathers couldn't get work. My grandfathers when they did work, earned more. My father and my mother were latchkey kids, as was I. Same thing, next generation. My mother made much less than my father, and as a single mom (they divorced when i was 6) she barely made ends meet even with my father's absolutely dependable child support checks ( $25 a week for 2 kids, went up to $35 eventually).
then it was me and my generation. In the guidance counselor's office, I was told: you can be a nurse or a teacher or a secretary; which career track appeals to you?
None of them appealed to me although i did apply to a nursing school and got turned down because i had the "wrong" personality.
In college, I discovered all sorts of wonderful things, and the absence of a dress code. I lost my panty hose forever. I was not a good student unfortunately so did not have an opportunity to blaze trails for others to follow by getting involved with Genetics or Animal sciences.
Instead I had to get a job. And the jobs available to me were clerical and retail and paid pretty badly.
So how did we do?
We no longer had to dress up in ridiculous shoes and dresses to work, go to school, or out to play.
We could get legal abortions.
We didn't have to be quiet when men were abusive towards us in the workplace (but more than likely nothing would be done about it anyway)
We still couldn't get good salaries.

ok, so fast forward to today:
We're fighting to keep those legal abortions.
We can pretty much dress the way we want anywhere.
More girls than boys are in college and graduating from it; but there are no jobs.
There is a big movement of "stay at home moms" many of us wish we could afford that very thing that was considered normal, even though in my own family for 3 generations it never did happen.
Men working in women's jobs STILL tend to make more $$ than women.
Women CAN get jobs in men's fields, but they still get hassled and abused, even in white collar jobs like flying commercial airlines.
I really lucked out, I work for a large corporation who bends over backwards trying to be fair. And to me, they certainly have been; i'm well compensated for my work. But i know that i am the exception, not the rule.
I guess I'm not a feminist anymore, although I am incredibly proud of the women who fought for our right to vote, to receive fair wages, and to be considered equal in the eyes of the law to men. But bottom line, (and as the mother of two sons); I believe in equal rights for all of humanity, and even more equal rights for our neighbors, the animal kingdom and the plant kingdom. Thanks for listening.

[sfa]

Those commercials were targeted towards, and portrayed, older women with older children.

Does your program actually use that term, "displaced homemaker"? I would find that creepy. Our local CC has programs for people who need those things, but they're not targeted at any particular segment or situation. They're available for whomever needs them.

Karen

Could be the demographics of your area that determined the target of the ads. I don't know if our program uses the term "displaced homemaker" externally or not--I know we DO use it internally, but the advertising materials I think just use the name of the actual program. And I'd be very surprised if your local community college was the only CC in America not targeting programs at particular population segments. Most funding that's available through federal, state and private grants is designed for particular populations, so we have programs for high school dropouts, veterans returning from abroad, women and minorities in engineering, low income residents, mid-life career changers, non-native English speakers, people with disabilities, etc. Of COURSE the services are available to whoever needs them, but the high-need populations are targeted with special programs and funding, and the programs are focused on the particular needs of that particular population, so the mid-life career changers probably won't need help on interviewing and professional skills but may need help on study skills, and the high school dropouts are going to need GED preparation along with study skills and academic mentoring and career counseling. And women who have been out of the workforce for many years or never in the workforce to begin with have particular issues and problems that, for example, veterans don't have (and the veterans have issues that NO other population has!). In theory each individual might be able to go seek out the services that only she or he needs, but it's a lot easier for the students to have someone on staff suggest and guide them through the process so they don't miss something important.

Sarah

[Tuckervill]

I probably wasn't clear in that the ads were on TV during the early '70s.

We agree more than we disagree. I know that our local CC gets funding based on whatever particular program they can attract. I just hate governmental jargon, which is quite frequently insensitive and imprecise.

Karen

[GLC1968]

I haven't weighed in on this post before now, partly because I'm not 100% sure how I feel about many of the topics presented here. I have very much enjoyed reading all the points of view discussed so far.

I tend to cringe at the term 'feminist'. I'm not sure why, though. Perhaps because if I were to 100% embrace all that being a feminist would have meant in my younger days, it would also have meant being forced to look down upon all the choices my mother made in life, and I couldn't do that.

My mother didn't finish college. She was an 'airline stewardess' (yes, that's what they were called then) back when there was a height and weight requirement (and a heel height requirement, too!). She gave up her 'career' to marry my father and raise children even though that wasn't really what she wanted out of life. She wanted to be a doctor, but it just wasn't in the cards for her. Could she have fought for it? Absolutely. Did she? Apparently not, and I don't really know why.

I do know that my mom ran her own business out of the home when we were kids. My mother was the one who mowed the lawn and chased down errant spiders. She also did the cooking, the cleaning and the child care. She forced me to play soccer on the boys team (yes, I was forced - I was screaming and crying in the car on the way there because I didn't want to, but she made me) so that I would learn teamwork and the importance of physical activity (there were no 'girls' teams then). She encouraged me to play with Tonka trucks and Lego's along with my Barbies. As I got older, she ensured that I had every opportunity that my brother had. And from a very, very early age, she (and my father both) told me that I could do anything I set my mind to. I could be ANYTHING I wanted to be.

How did all this translate? Until I was in college, I didn't understand why all the boys wanted to be my friend but date someone else. I knew I could get more respect from a guy who looked at me as 'one of the boys', so that's how I related to them. Sexism is something that happens to other women, not to me. I remember when I was bartending and the sleezeball general manager used to hit on all the women in the place. He'd set their schedules so that he was working with certain ones. He'd give his 'favorites' better sections or better assignments. I saw how he spoke to them and about them because, like 98% of the men I've ever known, he treated me like one of the guys. Did I report him, hell yeah. Did he EVER treat me unfairly? Not once. I don't think it ever occurred to him to do so.

When I made a 180 degree career change at 29, I did so with intention. I purposely picked a field dominated by men. Why? Two reasons - 1) the subject matter did not come easily to me and I wanted a challege after my previous career and more importantly 2) because I knew I'd have an advantage. And did I ever. I got fellowships and grants because I was a minority. I got interviews and offers, TA positions, visiblity, opportunies, etc...partially because I was a woman in a field dominated by men, and partly because I spoke English natively (also a minorty for my field) and have excellent communication skills. I even had a paid PhD program laid at my feet at a top-rated school, if I wanted it...because there is an extreme shortage of women professors in my field.

I take full advantage of these opportunites. Opportunies created by the very women that would have frowned upon my mother's choices (in light of her desires). How do I rectify that?

Am I a feminist? I don't think so. How could I be when I take advange of the very inequality that feminism is trying to eliminate?

[Biciclista]

I haven't weighed in on this post before now, partly because I'm not 100% sure how I feel about many of the topics presented here. I have very much enjoyed reading all the points of view discussed so far.

I tend to cringe at the term 'feminist'. I'm not sure why, though. Perhaps because if I were to 100% embrace all that being a feminist would have meant in my younger days, it would also have meant being forced to look down upon all the choices my mother made in life, and I couldn't do that.

My mother didn't finish college. She was an 'airline stewardess' (yes, that's what they were called then) back when there was a height and weight requirement (and a heel height requirement, too!). She gave up her 'career' to marry my father and raise children even though that wasn't really what she wanted out of life. She wanted to be a doctor, but it just wasn't in the cards for her. Could she have fought for it? Absolutely. Did she? Apparently not, and I don't really know why.

I do know that my mom ran her own business out of the home when we were kids. My mother was the one who mowed the lawn and chased down errant spiders. She also did the cooking, the cleaning and the child care. She forced me to play soccer on the boys team (yes, I was forced - I was screaming and crying in the car on the way there because I didn't want to, but she made me) so that I would learn teamwork and the importance of physical activity (there were no 'girls' teams then). She encouraged me to play with Tonka trucks and Lego's along with my Barbies. As I got older, she ensured that I had every opportunity that my brother had. And from a very, very early age, she (and my father both) told me that I could do anything I set my mind to. I could be ANYTHING I wanted to be.

How did all this translate? Until I was in college, I didn't understand why all the boys wanted to be my friend but date someone else. I knew I could get more respect from a guy who looked at me as 'one of the boys', so that's how I related to them. Sexism is something that happens to other women, not to me. I remember when I was bartending and the sleezeball general manager used to hit on all the women in the place. He'd set their schedules so that he was working with certain ones. He'd give his 'favorites' better sections or better assignments. I saw how he spoke to them and about them because, like 98% of the men I've ever known, he treated me like one of the guys. Did I report him, hell yeah. Did he EVER treat me unfairly? Not once. I don't think it ever occurred to him to do so.

When I made a 180 degree career change at 29, I did so with intention. I purposely picked a field dominated by men. Why? Two reasons - 1) the subject matter did not come easily to me and I wanted a challege after my previous career and more importantly 2) because I knew I'd have an advantage. And did I ever. I got fellowships and grants because I was a minority. I got interviews and offers, TA positions, visiblity, opportunies, etc...partially because I was a woman in a field dominated by men, and partly because I spoke English natively (also a minorty for my field) and have excellent communication skills. I even had a paid PhD program laid at my feet at a top-rated school, if I wanted it...because there is an extreme shortage of women professors in my field.

I take full advantage of these opportunites. Opportunies created by the very women that would have frowned upon my mother's choices (in light of her desires). How do I rectify that?

Am I a feminist? I don't think so. How could I be when I take advange of the very inequality that feminism is trying to eliminate?

++++ great post!! ++++

[sgtiger]

Of all the adjectives that I might use to describe myself, feminist would probably not be one. Then again, I haven't given it too much thought previously. I do ,however, fully believe in women's rights. And I see women's rights as being more than a women only issue. I think it is a human rights issue. I believe that everyone should have the opportunity to pursue their goals and be able to live their lives as they see fit as long as it does not impinge upon the rights of others'. It's going to take more than just us, as women, to recognize and to speak out about the injustices we see in this world towards women though. It will take changing the mentality of the human race. Whether it may or may not be agreed upon that existing legislation and workplace policies go far enough or not, those policies are moot if they are ignored. We have to raise the standards by which women see themselves and men see women in order for those policies to truly be effective and to mean anything. Just as gaining civil rights took more than minority advocates in order for them to be recognized, we need the men in our lives to believe in us - whether they are our bosses, fathers, friends, brothers, sons, mentors, spiritual leaders, legislators, etc. Without their backing and willingness to see us ,women, as being just as capable; the change we want will not happen. Let's face it, we don't live in a vacuum. Our lives are influenced by men both in positive and negative ways, whether we choose to recognize that or not. So I do not see how we can have a discussion about women's right without involving the role of men in it. Personally, I'd like to imagine a world where there isn't a necessity for such policies, because PEOPLE are respectful of one another and they are recognized for their actions.

[PinkBike]

i just sat down and read this whole thread.
i think: feminism is about validation.
as long as there is a swimsuit edition of sports illustrated we are not there.
as long as it is still generally acceptable to demean women, we are not there, and believe me it is - overwhelmingly and blatantly.

i am an aircraft mechanic - one of maybe a half-dozen women out of about 800 mechanics where i work. almostly exclusively white, american men. i actually feel a kinship with the black struggle, i believe i share some of their struggles. as for my male coworkers, they have no idea what i live with. no idea.

i agree with zen, there are only nurses. only feminists. and only mechanics.

i wish. this whole topic makes me sad.

[Zen]

Am I a feminist? I don't think so. How could I be when I take advange of the very inequality that feminism is trying to eliminate?

I see it as taking advantage of the opportunities that the feminist movement helped create.
Some plant the tree, some sit in it's shade.

[OakLeaf]

I'm so frustrated by the number of posters in this thread who view feminists as somehow looking down on stay-at-home moms.

Of course there are many people who do look down on stay-at-home moms - just as there are many who look down on any other work traditionally done by women - nurse, secretary, elementary school teacher, fiber artist, etc. It's unsurprising that some early feminists still harbored some of the prejudices that had been drilled into everyone since their birth. "Consciousness raising" is a process that didn't and doesn't happen overnight.

But devaluation of housework wasn't invented by feminists, and it certainly has not been feminists who've perpetuated it. For the past 30 years, it's been largely those who describe themselves as "conservative" who revile women (exclusively women) who "have children they can't support." Where is the equivalent vituperation of high-earning males who "have children they can't raise?" Where is the government mandate and popular demand for them to spend more time at home? What is the inverse of "welfare queens" - "day care kings," perhaps? :p

I wish these posters would remember that it's the second-wave feminists in the early 1970s who developed the concept of wages for housework. How much more is it possible to respect and validate homemakers, than to demand that homemaking be valued equally with all other work?

[Pax]

Well said Zen and OakLeaf!

[shootingstar]

I'm so frustrated by the number of posters in this thread who view feminists as somehow looking down on stay-at-home moms.

Of course there are many people who do look down on stay-at-home moms - just as there are many who look down on any other work traditionally done by women - nurse, secretary, elementary school teacher, fiber artist, etc. It's unsurprising that some early feminists still harbored some of the prejudices that had been drilled into everyone since their birth. "Consciousness raising" is a process that didn't and doesn't happen overnight.

But devaluation of housework wasn't invented by feminists, and it certainly has not been feminists who've perpetuated it. For the past 30 years, it's been largely those who describe themselves as "conservative" who revile women (exclusively women) who "have children they can't support."

A few months ago on TE here, this was the reaction on the use of "tomboy".
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=26570&highlight=tomboy

Really, that word is old-fashioned within today's context. But somehow there were a few posters who took abit of pride they were a tomboy in childhood.

Well, for those of us who weren't "playing" with the boys, climbing trees, ..then were we less exploratory, less adventuresome, less daring...?

I don't think so, hard to say that to a kid like myself, who was unwillingly doing English translation for my mother in stores, banks, etc. starting from age 8 and up and given other adult-like responsibilties at home to help mother, when other kids were playing more freely. And yes, father I will help you type up the immigration application forms for relatives he was helping sponsor from China to Canada. I was 16 yrs. old. (No wonder why feminism for me, is layered with issues related to immigrant matters, race relations, etc.)

My success as well for all my sibs, sits on the shoulders of a mother who looks like and is indeed, low-income, tired immigrant mother, stay at home mother who was a picture bride (didn't meet my father in person, in advance of marrying him after she got off the plane in Canada) and knows she was EXTREMELY lucky to have married a man who didn't physically abuse her, had hrs. and hrs. of respectful discussions with him (I associate any decent marriage partially with ability to have long, exploratory and respectful discussions.) and a husband in his retirement, shares cooking and household work with her. I know how rare the latter is in THEIR generation.

My comment earlier about knowing English language as a language of power, to even express injustice and achievement to a broader audience, is important because this whole discussion excludes attitudes and opinions of millions of non-English speaking women and men worldwide.

[Irulan]

I'm so frustrated by the number of posters in this thread who view feminists as somehow looking down on stay-at-home moms.

Of course there are many people who do look down on stay-at-home moms - just as there are many who look down on any other work traditionally done by women - nurse, secretary, elementary school teacher, fiber artist, etc. It's unsurprising that some early feminists still harbored some of the prejudices that had been drilled into everyone since their birth. "Consciousness raising" is a process that didn't and doesn't happen overnight.

But devaluation of housework wasn't invented by feminists, and it certainly has not been feminists who've perpetuated it. For the past 30 years, it's been largely those who describe themselves as "conservative" who revile women (exclusively women) who "have children they can't support." Where is the equivalent vituperation of high-earning males who "have children they can't raise?" Where is the government mandate and popular demand for them to spend more time at home? What is the inverse of "welfare queens" - "day care kings," perhaps? :p

I wish these posters would remember that it's the second-wave feminists in the early 1970s who developed the concept of wages for housework. How much more is it possible to respect and validate homemakers, than to demand that homemaking be valued equally with all other work?

I must comment as I am one of those who said that.

I wouldn't have said it if I hadn't experienced it in a real way.

To deny that the feminists of the 70s and 80s put down, disrespected or poo-poohed the women who gave up on careers and degrees to choose to raise their kids while their spouse was the provider is to have really big blinders on. And, I think to say that feminists didn't invent the devaluation of at-home moms is dancing around the issue, and not acknowledging the crap that women regularly dish out to each other. In my experience, the feminist movement increased the devaluation of at home moms and put it in the limelight, because we weren't getting with the program.

I would have love to been respected for my choice, but instead I got a lot of disdain, "how could you" etc from my so-called sisters. How validating is that? It has nothing to do with equal pay for equal work; it has to do with judgment, righteousness, and put oneself above another for choices. The vibe was sent out from my so called sisters that getting married, staying home and having kids was the ultimate sell out. This has nothing to do with conservatives, or other female professions, and nothing to do with welfare families, either. I could care less about wages for housework; it was the look in other women's eyes that I was somehow diminished, lesser-than that was disheartening.

Yeah, I"m carrying a big chip around. I acknowledge that.

[GLC1968]

I see it as taking advantage of the opportunities that the feminist movement helped create.
Some plant the tree, some sit in it's shade.

It rankles me that you see what I do as "sitting the shade". I guess I should have said that chosing the career I did and then busting my rear to succeed in it was no cake walk. This was particularly obvious when I was in school and was surrounded by 'old boy' professors (and one arab one-who clearly had REAL issues with women in my field) who daily said things that would have made many women question their choice. I took it as a challenge and laughed at their small mindedness. While I may not be blazing brand new trails, I'm certainly doing everything in my power to help further clear those early paths so that there is plenty of room for more women to follow in my footsteps. And yes, I take every advantage that being a woman affords me.

My point about being a feminist is exactly what Zen pointed out...by my taking advantage of being a woman and working it to it's full potential, I guess I can't be considered a feminist. Like so many have said here, a feminist is about equality for all. It's really too bad because truly 'working the system' to advance an idea is an area that I can testify offers great opportunity to futher the cause. I believe that women (and all minorities) should be able to do whatever they choose to do. I don't buy into 'feminism' as a classification for me because the very nature of the definition makes the choices that I made invalid or somehow unsavory, if you will.


And for Oakleaf and others who expressed frustration at the idea that some of us feel that feminists look down on stay at home moms, I would like to point out that back when I was an impressionable young girl and first forming my views about how women fit into this world, the feminists that I was exposed to DID look down on stay at home moms and woman who took traditional female roles in the work world (like stewardesses). I understand why they did and I also understand that 1) not every feminist felt that way and 2) it's very different now, but the fact of the matter is, these early radical women were my first exposure to the idea and they were influencial in how I developed my views. That isn't to say that they have any bearing on why I don't consider myself a feminist now, but it is the reason I didn't jump on the band-wagon back then.

And I do agree with Irulan that there is absolutely a disdain towards women who choose to stay home and raise childern AND there is also disdain towards those who chose to have careers and not ever have children. Where did this huge barrier/line come from? Why does it have to be either or? Again, I know that most people here don't feel this way and I'm not blaming feminists for this...I'm just saying that there is a big barrier there and the idea that women can choose EITHER path is clearly not widely accepted yet. With all the negative connotations associated with the word 'feminism', perhaps a different movement would be more effective?

I'm hereby declaring myself a 'humanist'. Anyone wanna join me? :)

[OakLeaf]

I missed where I said that no feminists ever looked down at SAHMs. In fact, I acknowledged that some, maybe many, did so.

I'll go further. As a teen, I was one of them. I don't remember ever having said anything directly personal to anyone, but I may have, and whether or not I did, I apologize.

You know where I originally learned that attitude?

From my non-feminist, traditional-sex-role dad. And the way he treated my own stay-at-home mom. From my earliest memories, her work and her role was devalued and disrespected and openly insulted. Not by feminists. By a patriarchal male. I learned that, and it wasn't until I left home and began to associate with women who respect women (a synonym for feminists) that I was able to unlearn it.

[Irulan]

I missed where I said that no feminists ever looked down at SAHMs. In fact, I acknowledged that some, maybe many, did so.

I'll go further. As a teen, I was one of them. I don't remember ever having said anything directly personal to anyone, but I may have, and whether or not I did, I apologize.

You know where I originally learned that attitude?

From my non-feminist, traditional-sex-role dad. And the way he treated my own stay-at-home mom. From my earliest memories, her work and her role was devalued and disrespected and openly insulted. Not by feminists. By a patriarchal male. I learned that, and it wasn't until I left home and began to associate with women who respect women (a synonym for feminists) that I was able to unlearn it.

In a lot of ways this post really makes me smile... we are on opposite ends of the experience spectrum here. This really shows how we are so much products of our own experience, in addition to a larger culture.

My mom was an original 60's working mother feminist ( almost a bra burner but not quite), my dad was a weak man. I was spoon fed feminist idealism from a very early age, but the paths I took with my life soon diverged from the then typical feminist agenda. That would have been fine on it's own, but within my own peer group, I got a whole lot of crap for it.

i will leave it at that.

[Crankin]

It's funny, your experience of the SAHM vs. working outside the home mom varies so much, depending on your peer group. When I had my kids in the 80's, everyone I worked with was my age and having kids. I never gave a thought to staying home, even if I could have afforded it. But then, one summer I took my older son to a mother-child toddler activity class. There, I met up with a group of women that eventually became some of my closest friends. But none of them worked. This was a group of 40 or so women. I went to the play groups, classes, and couples activities in the summer and on the weekends/nights. No one dissed me, but they just didn't understand how I could live my life the way I did. All of these women were highly educated, too. When I got pregnant with the second one, I was asked, "So, you're going to stay home now?" They were surprised when I said "no," but I think I was somewhat accepted due to my "traditional female career."
Some of these people had been married much longer than I had been and waited to have their kids.
My lifestyle worked out very well for me, my husband, and kids. I never expected anyone to do exactly what I had done; it's too personal of a decision. My mom, who never worked, continually told me to have a career and my own money! I think she was born too early. Although my dad was quite active in household things and child care for a man in the fifties and sixties, my mom would have received a lot of cr*p from her peers for working back then. It just wasn't done, especially where I lived.

[PamNY]

I would have love to been respected for my choice, but instead I got a lot of disdain, "how could you" etc from my so-called sisters. How validating is that? It has nothing to do with equal pay for equal work; it has to do with judgment, righteousness, and put oneself above another for choices. The vibe was sent out from my so called sisters that getting married, staying home and having kids was the ultimate sell out.

Keep in mind that what you describe happens to most everyone at some point in life. If you expect validation from everyone you know, you are bound to be disappointed. Virtually any major life or career choice is likely to elicit disapproval from someone. The idea that a person owes you validation because of gender doesn't make sense. The list of women who disapprove of me is long, and likely to get longer before I die.

Pam

[Mr. Bloom]

I was spoon fed feminist idealism from a very early age, but the paths I took with my life soon diverged from the then typical feminist agenda. That would have been fine on it's own, but within my own peer group, I got a whole lot of crap for it.


But, at the core, isn't that was all this is about...having the freedom to determine what is right for you without:

subordinating your beliefs to someone else's mold
subjecting yourself to someone else's interpretation/perspective of things around you?


Forget gender...isn't that at the core what freedom is? True freedom is the ability to do what you NEED to do without being subjected to the persecution or the pressure of what someone else WANTS you to do. If you NEED to work to support your family - GREAT! If you NEED to stay home to raise your kids - GREAT! Every situation and circumstance is different, so why do some believe that there is only one mold that works:confused::confused: A working mom is no less a woman than a SAHM and vice versa.

And, for the record, I am not a "male feminist", because, I believe at the core, that there is not equality in any extreme. Women are women, men are men - there are inherent differences, but there is no superiority in God's eyes...so there's no room for any sense of superiority in mine.

[Grog]

But, at the core, isn't that was all this is about...having the freedom to determine what is right for you without:

subordinating your beliefs to someone else's mold
subjecting yourself to someone else's interpretation/perspective of things around you?


Forget gender...isn't that at the core what freedom is?

I think a lot of the liberation movements (of all strands) have been about realizing how "what we want" is actually constructed. It's not a conspiracy or anything, it's just that the world already exists by the time we're born and there's lots of expectations on people about how they're supposed to behave and be treated. 2That's the way we do it."

These expectations are based on gender for a large part and on other things too, call them race, class, ability, etc. You realize that these expectations are there when you break them, and you're negatively sanctioned for it. When you're clearly made to feel that you do not belong somewhere, or that you are not behaving in a way that's appropriate for you. I felt a lot of that when I was in a position of leadership in a political organization for a while (it ended in me resignating). I felt that (less so) when preparing to get married and feeling that I was out of place, not because I was a woman but because my culture was a bit different from that of the person I was marrying. (It did not end and it works nicely despite the difference.) As long as one behaves exactly as expected, nothing is noticeable. When things start differing from the expectations, you're in for a ride. And we live in a world with lots of difference now, international mobility, different languages, etc. so there's lot of people feeling that kind of "friction" all the time. (We need some Chamois Butt'r.)

To say the least, expectations are not distributed evenly, and a lot of people are getting the wrong side of the deal. Often they don't really notice it. Many religions are built around the acceptance of one's place in the system and the hope that the next time around (next life, or in heaven) it will be a better place. Changing the deal is largely impossible to fight on one's own, because the lines are so deeply drawn. That's why collectives form.

So what is real freedom?

For my own life and ethics, I've accepted that there are expectations that I will simply fulfill, gender roles I will take, etc. because they are so deeply carved into me. I'm not sure if that's freedom, but I need to pick my struggles, and freedom is not my priority I guess. There are other expectations that I really don't think are right, and I do my part to inch toward change. I feel like a slug trying to get to Ushuaïa, and I'll probably get run over before I get there.

[OakLeaf]

And, for the record, I am not a "male feminist", because, I believe at the core, that there is not equality in any extreme. Women are women, men are men - there are inherent differences, but there is no superiority in God's eyes...so there's no room for any sense of superiority in mine.

What makes you think that feminism has anything to do with "superiority?"

[Mr. Bloom]

some of the original posts...clearly imply that many do believe that...I don't personally think it does...

[Deborajen]

Feminism has a lot to do with superiority. Its roots are in the women's movement for equality - political, social and economic. Since the days of suffrage (and even way before that) women have fought for such things as the right to vote, the right to equal pay for equal work, and to break social barriers by doing such things as riding a bicycle. It was about being given equal rights and not being treated inferiorly.

It's true that times have changed a lot, and I agree with one of the first posts on this thread that it's harder to distinguish a feminist from a non-feminist woman anymore. There are laws that protect equal rights (or at least try to). Women are still, though, generally more challenged at such things as being accepted as authority figures. Some of this is social and some of it is economic (ie., workplace titles and corresponding salary, etc.). Although it's now acceptable for women to ride bikes, a lot more men ride than women. I wouldn't call this a "superiority" thing because it's more of a societal role, but maybe I'm somewhat of a feminist in that I'm in favor changing the role a little more.

No, feminism isn't entirely about superiority. Today it's definitely less about superiority than it was before, but it does does still exist and it's definitely in feminism's roots.

[Zen]

The word "superiority" doesn't even fit in this sense. It just doesn't sound right to my ear. Equality, yes, superiority no.

[Deborajen]

Superiority as in doing away with it --

If there isn't equality, there's superiority/inferiority

[Biciclista]

I'd argue with any woman here my age who says she wasn't devalued at some point BECAUSE she was female. Superiority indeed. Until women are no longer treated like chattel around the world, we need to fight for the rights of those women.

[Mr. Bloom]

I'd argue with any woman here my age who says she wasn't devalued at some point BECAUSE she was female. Superiority indeed. Until women are no longer treated like chattel around the world, we need to fight for the rights of those women.

Mimi, are you advocating superiority or equality??

If you agree that male domination/superiority is wrong, then how does one advocate an equal, but opposite wrong?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

She's advocating equality.

[salsabike]

I'd argue with any woman here my age who says she wasn't devalued at some point BECAUSE she was female. Superiority indeed. Until women are no longer treated like chattel around the world, we need to fight for the rights of those women.


Mimi, are you advocating superiority or equality??

If you agree that male domination/superiority is wrong, then how does one advocate an equal, but opposite wrong?

Thank you, Mimi. I couldn't agree more.

Hard to imagine how Mimi's comment could be read as advocating superiority instead of equality. But whatever.

[Zen]

I guess I'm not a feminist anymore, ...

oh but I think you are.
As time progresses, society changes and the way we make our voices heard also changes.

The 60's and early 70's were revolutionary times. The civil rights movement, the resurgence of the womens rights movement and Vietnam war protests were all in the streets at the same time. We do our protesting and organizing via pixels, zeroes and ones now and I think we have a greater voice than ever. I bet you're using that voice.

[lph]

I think a lot of the liberation movements (of all strands) have been about realizing how "what we want" is actually constructed. It's not a conspiracy or anything, it's just that the world already exists by the time we're born and there's lots of expectations on people about how they're supposed to behave and be treated. 2That's the way we do it."

These expectations are based on gender for a large part and on other things too, call them race, class, ability, etc. You realize that these expectations are there when you break them, and you're negatively sanctioned for it. When you're clearly made to feel that you do not belong somewhere, or that you are not behaving in a way that's appropriate for you.
(...)
For my own life and ethics, I've accepted that there are expectations that I will simply fulfill, gender roles I will take, etc. because they are so deeply carved into me. I'm not sure if that's freedom, but I need to pick my struggles, and freedom is not my priority I guess. There are other expectations that I really don't think are right, and I do my part to inch toward change. I feel like a slug trying to get to Ushuaïa, and I'll probably get run over before I get there.

Well said. I think we often believe that our choices are more free than they are, because it's virtually impossible to really view all your options at every point in your life, and way too much trouble too. We tend to simplify our lives by choosing one of the options we know well, and are conditioned into.

[Zen]

Beaches are made of individual grains of sand.

Change takes time

Small things matter.

It all adds up.

[badger]

I'm completely jumping in this thread without having read any of the other replies, but figured my question probably relates to some matters of this topic.

As a single woman, I have to do everything by myself. Shopping for appliances, cars, visit home reno showrooms, etc. What I found is that salespeople almost literally avoid me (even saw one guy come around the corner of fridges and literally turn on his heel away from me!)

Car shopping alone as a woman was probably the most frustrating experience. I once had to go into the showroom of a Nissan dealership where all these guys were gathered around yakking. I had to say "what do I have to do to get some help around here?" they gave me some new guy who knew absolutey nothing, including the fuel efficiency of a Versa - hardly a rare car.

I'm also having a very difficult time right now with a major mattress chain (Sleep Country, for those who live in cities that have them). I bought a "floor model" mattress which later turned out to be used, they never told me and the salesman outright said I'm bonkers for even thinking that. They eventually admitted it but they still won't take it back! their stipulation is they want me to get the mattress professionally cleaned; something I'm not about to as that would acknowledge that I made the stains (truly, this is *ick*). They're just stalling and making things difficult for me so I'll just go away. What they don't realize is I'm just getting warmed up with the war they don't see coming.

[grey]

"Forget it. Life treats you the way you let it."
Flower Children, c.1920

I just want to see equality. We have come a long way, but there is still an almost-daily fight for respect.

Workmen we may hire will talk to my husband, and not to me if we are both standing in front of them - even though I'm the one who called the guy, and I'm the one who will be supervising his work (and know what it is he should be doing). When looking at cars, specifically a sporty car, I was shown a sedan and the fellow kept talking about safety features and how this would be a "nice, safe car" - after a test drive on a sporty car, he remarked that I was a good driver, like it was some kind of surprise that a woman can drive a stick and not grind gears to death.

How many of us are sick of having a doctor (or anybody else) asking if you are pregnant the moment you have any sort of illness? I joke that a broken toe would still warrant that question.

I used to become angry. Instead, now I just express clearly what it is I want from the start. I'm not a *itch, I actually make an effort to be firmly polite, but I do expect to be treated a certain way. If the car salesman wants to show me "safe cars" I say it's a shame they don't have what it is I want, and that I'll be moving on to the dealership next door. If a doctor wants to call my herniated disk a possible pregnancy, I leave (actually, I head it off now with "if you mention the p-word, I'm leaving"). And if a repairman wants to think I'm not worth talking to, I may throw in a pertinent observation to show that I'm present, if that doesn't change his perception, he simply isn't hired.

We can't change everybody. There are people who are the predjudiced pricks they are: such as the old man who suggested I must be a hoar one early morning while out walking a rescue dog (I was wearing my husband's sweatshirt, yoga pants and flip-flops, and the dog looked terrible). There are, and will always be, people whose minds will not change. The only thing you can do is ignore them.

In the end, all we can do is work for equality - and it would behoove us to realize that men are also being shoved into molds whether they like them or not. Our goal should be to live in harmony with one another. It isn't always easy... but my form of "feminisim" if the word must be used, is to work toward changing perceptions in a positive manner. I won't let life treat me badly, but neither will I treat anyone else badly for my own gain.

[shootingstar]

I like the opening quote, Grey.

Like badger I did own and looked after my own condo and had to get things done by hiring people. And after working in several workplaces that were predominantly male in terms of decision-making teams/powerbrokers/stakeholders, it served me well just to simply state in a polite way what I would like to do to solve a problem OR to make something better to benefit others also (take focus off me all the time) ..and keep at it. It does occasionally mean being abit more aware. It also means not getting too emotional particularily with strangers/distant acquaintances. Or even with our loved ones. Hard to hear above the cacaphony.

But as I said for myself feminism is inextricably touched with race relations. It still is on several different fronts but changed. Simple example: it is the dominant culture in North America that defines female beauty ideals. I still feel like old girl feminism from way back when black feminists and radicals were espousing "Black is beautiful" in '60's & '70's, in order for me ...to have accepted myself as I am. Which still means not dyeing my black hair, to blonde or red. Wonder how long I will resist the forces. :p

I also wonder how much guys worry/think about their own personal safety compared to women. If some women are afraid to cycle solo, walk alone at night, etc. because we will get assaulted, etc. It says volumes about a woman's perception of the world in general vs. men just on one's own daily personal bodily safety. We haven't progressed in this area...it could be argued there are just more technological tools for predators to do their thing.


"Forget it. Life treats you the way you let it."
Flower Children, c.1920

I just want to see equality. ...................

I used to become angry. Instead, now I just express clearly what it is I want from the start. I'm not a *itch, I actually make an effort to be firmly polite, but I do expect to be treated a certain way. If the car salesman wants to show me "safe cars" I say it's a shame they don't have what it is I want, and that I'll be moving on to the dealership next door. If a doctor wants to call my herniated disk a possible pregnancy, I leave (actually, I head it off now with "if you mention the p-word, I'm leaving"). And if a repairman wants to think I'm not worth talking to, I may throw in a pertinent observation to show that I'm present, if that doesn't change his perception, he simply isn't hired.

We can't change everybody. There are people who are the predjudiced pricks they are: such as the old man who suggested I must be a hoar one early morning while out walking a rescue dog (I was wearing my husband's sweatshirt, yoga pants and flip-flops, and the dog looked terrible). There are, and will always be, people whose minds will not change. The only thing you can do is ignore them.

[Grog]

If a doctor wants to call my herniated disk a possible pregnancy, I leave (actually, I head it off now with "if you mention the p-word, I'm leaving").

I agree with everything you say, but not with this.

There is a very good reason why doctors do this. There is a rule in medicine that says that "every woman under the age of 70 is pregnant until proven otherwise." The reason for this is that an ectopic pregnancy can kill you FAST. So in any case of abdominal/trunk pain (includes pain in the kidney area, can even be shoulder pain, etc.) in a woman you want to rule that out IMMEDIATELY. I'm not kidding.

I admit that it gets annoying - especially if you haven't been getting any intimacy with a male partner - but it's for a really good reason. Even if you're on the pill you could be pregnant, even if you don't think you could be you can be pregnant, even if you don't quite remember the last time you approached a male... it's really in women's best interest that this is systematically checked. You wouldn't believe the number of women out there who cannot believe that they could be pregnant... and they are.

Just my .02 cents. Canadian, no less.

(I should add that in their younger days, a female relative had terrible abdominal pain for a bit, and her husband - a doctor - did not think that it was anything else than just "normal" "female" abdominal pain. She even got on a 3-hour flight but ended up in ER, and she was having an ectopic pregnancy. The male relative I think still feels guilty to this day for not thinking about that possibility, because it's such an crucial part of his training, and his wife could have died pretty quick.)

[Biciclista]

"every woman under the age of 70 is pregnant until proven otherwise."



SEVENTY??

My doctors quit asking me that about 5 years ago, or when I turned 50

[Pax]

SEVENTY??

My doctors quit asking me that about 5 years ago, or when I turned 50

Mine still asks each visit, even though I had a hysterectomy ten years ago...and she's been my doc for almost 12 years. :rolleyes:

[Crankin]

I understand the pregnancy rule. It was brought home to me when I had a doctor friend come over and check me out for a sinus infection when I was about 35. Usually, his wife, a nurse practitioner and a close friend, did this for me, but she was unavailable. He asked me the p question, even though he was the one that referred my DH to the doc who did his vasectomy! I burst out laughing, but I *could* have been fooling around...

[Thorn]

Yep, no age limit. I resemble that remark. As an x-ray tech I had to ask every female that walked into my room whether she could be pregnant. So, yes, even if you had a broken toe, you'd get the pregnancy question. Sorry.

[Zen]

BUT ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS
I was plain-out joyful upon reading this (http://jezebel.com/5259716/comic-confrontations-judge-judy-vs-feminists-part-2)

[shootingstar]

Later....to read this long piece of snippets of "wisdom" with Judge Judy. :o

It takes long enough to read the whole of this 1 TE thread topic. Whew..!

[Pax]

BUT ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS
I was plain-out joyful upon reading this (http://jezebel.com/5259716/comic-confrontations-judge-judy-vs-feminists-part-2)

That was cool!

[sgtiger]

LMAO! That was good, Zen.

[Jewell]

I'm completely jumping in this thread without having read any of the other replies, but figured my question probably relates to some matters of this topic.

As a single woman, I have to do everything by myself. Shopping for appliances, cars, visit home reno showrooms, etc. What I found is that salespeople almost literally avoid me (even saw one guy come around the corner of fridges and literally turn on his heel away from me!)

Car shopping alone as a woman was probably the most frustrating experience. I once had to go into the showroom of a Nissan dealership where all these guys were gathered around yakking. I had to say "what do I have to do to get some help around here?" they gave me some new guy who knew absolutey nothing, including the fuel efficiency of a Versa - hardly a rare car.

I'm also having a very difficult time right now with a major mattress chain (Sleep Country, for those who live in cities that have them). I bought a "floor model" mattress which later turned out to be used, they never told me and the salesman outright said I'm bonkers for even thinking that. They eventually admitted it but they still won't take it back! their stipulation is they want me to get the mattress professionally cleaned; something I'm not about to as that would acknowledge that I made the stains (truly, this is *ick*). They're just stalling and making things difficult for me so I'll just go away. What they don't realize is I'm just getting warmed up with the war they don't see coming.

Single mothers don't get the credit they deserve. I'm gonna show you a website with a few articles, warning, their radical badger, but oh so amazing. She's gonna sound charged, because she is for good reason. http://users.resist.ca/~kirstena/pagewelfareismisogyny.html

[PamNY]

Yep, no age limit. I resemble that remark. As an x-ray tech I had to ask every female that walked into my room whether she could be pregnant. So, yes, even if you had a broken toe, you'd get the pregnancy question. Sorry.

My friend (who is in her seventies) says they ask that question just to cheer up the patient.

Pam

[grey]

I also wonder how much guys worry/think about their own personal safety compared to women. If some women are afraid to cycle solo, walk alone at night, etc. because we will get assaulted, etc. It says volumes about a woman's perception of the world in general vs. men just on one's own daily personal bodily safety. We haven't progressed in this area...it could be argued there are just more technological tools for predators to do their thing.

I am always watchful of my personal safety. Especially since moving here, I've had numerous incidents that make me extremely aware, and I always carry a weapon. I don't walk in my neighborhood, I walk to the park (small town, lots of families and other people walking there, versus some parts of my neighborhood which can be rather transient with rental homes). I don't cycle alone much - some of that though is the same caution I grew up with about diving alone - things can happen, and you may need a buddy to get you out of the water.

I have 10 years of martial arts training, but I don't let that make me feel like I can go anywhere. It just means I have a chance provided I keep a clear head. My experiences in life have taught me to always, always watch my back, to always be able to remember what people were wearing, to always check under my car in the parking lot as well as the back seat (and my keys are in my knuckles). Awareness is half the battle - I tell women not to walk through parking lots fishing through their bag for their car keys. They can't know what is going on around them (perfect target) - have those keys out before leaving the store.

I don't consider this paranoia, it's just being prepared. I have some male blackbelt friends who are just as aware. But still... I feel it is MORE vital for me as a 120-pound woman to be watchful - because I know firsthand how much bigger and stronger a man is than we are. It's like us grabbing a 7-year old child - the child better know where to hit, and fast.

Women are still assaulted every day - far more often than men are. We as a sex tend to not watch our surroundings well, we are smaller, and we carry our money in this big bag that makes it so much easier than figuring out which pocket a guy has it in. I don't know that women should ever let themselves feel safe when out in public. That can only happen in Utopia - there will always be bad men - even if the majority are great, even if the majority would treat us as equals, there are some real sickos out there.