Park police disturbs me

[denny]

There have been 2 incidents at Stone Mountain park in Atlanta where the police has attempted to slow or stop a 40 rider peloton while in motion by 1. Pulling the squad car broadside in front of the group and 2. Last week, an office stood in front of them with hands out to stop them. The second incident resulted in a nasty tumble for the rides 1 of whom were tended to by park paramedics and transported to a local hospital.

It is beyond me how such tatical maneuvers can be deemed necessary even if the riders were in violation of riding more than 2 abreast after sunset. The presence of fixed structures such as curbs, trees can lead to severe injury or death in the event of a collision. I'm not sure how the peloton exceeding 30 mph represents a danger to the public for the police to employ this tactic.

I have friends who ride with this group and worry that without a formal complaint this can only escalate into 2 things. They can either forbid such groups from riding through the park or worse yet there will be an eventual fatality from this dumb tactic. Is anyone aware of such incidents elsewhere? Is seems this is an extreme measure for a moving violation (if you want to call it that :cool:

[ZenSojourner]

How would you suggest that the officials stop 40 riders riding in a pack through a public park after dark at over 30 mph?

Perhaps the answer is for the riders to stop breaking the law.

How about the hazard these guys represent to everyone else on the road, vehicles, pedestrians, even animals?

[denny]

How would you suggest that the officials stop 40 riders riding in a pack through a public park after dark at over 30 mph?

Perhaps the answer is for the riders to stop breaking the law.

How about the hazard these guys represent to everyone else on the road, vehicles, pedestrians, even animals?

Hey Zen- they come through at 6:15PM. It's not dark yet. However, assuming they are riding single file or double file then speed would be the factor and yes, slow down is the correct answer. I still believe that the maneuver is an over reaction and is rarely used by state and local PD unless there is an immediate danger to public. This does not rise to such a level as it is a 5 mile strip with a fairly low presence of vehichles and pedestrians pretty much stick to the designated areas.

[Zen]

Please do not confuse the original Zen with the ZenSojourner.
I offer guidance only, never admonition.

Thank you and I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Cataboo]

It's a moving violation... if you're in a car and police want to stop you, then they chase you, turn on the lights, etc... If a police officer has a speedtrap on the side of the road or whatever and steps out into the road to motion you to stop.... you stop and pull over. This isn't something that car drivers complain about.

What are the reasons that the park police are upset at the riders? I'm guessing its for riding after sunset more than 2 abreast since that's what you mentioned?

If it's after sunset, the roads are empty, and I'm in a park... I can't drive 100 mph hour just because noone's there. I can't drive on the wrong side of the road just because noone's there.

Most parks around me close at sunset. Most parks around me also have pretty anal park rangers and police, but... they're doing their jobs and they're enforcing the rules, because quite a few people think they don't apply to them.

You're afraid to complain about these incidents because bikers may lose the priveledge of biking through the park... So... why can't the bikers follow the rules that the park has set on them riding through the park?

Yes, it's unfortunate that some riders got hurt... but you also have to realize that if you're on a bike and you can't stop when there's an obstacle in the road, or you're in a pack of bikes that can't stop when there's an obstacle in the road... be it a police car or a human... Then something's wrong, you're really not biking all that safely on a public road.

[Irulan]

t is beyond me how such tatical maneuvers can be deemed necessary even if the riders were in violation of riding more than 2 abreast after sunset.

well, there's your answer right there. Perhaps if your group contacted the authorities ahead of time for an event permit or special road closure or what ever it takes to not be in violation of the laws, the cops wouldn't do what they did.

[ilima]

Isn't Stone Mountain technically a private park? They're probably not 'real' cops and they probably don't give a crap.

Now, I do think the two abreast thing is a little silly to get in a huff about as if they're going with traffic, you can have way more than two abreast in a single lane (and the cyclists should be worthy of a full lane if they're going at the speed limit), which would make the group more compact and easier to pass in the left lane.

[Irulan]

easier to pass in the left lane.

you can't always pass in the left lane. Some roads are blind, or slow or there's too much on coming traffic. Or, maybe you are like my mom, 80 years old and terrified to pass a group of cyclists on a curvy road....

[Cataboo]

Assuming stone mountain is a theme park, this is what it says on their FAQ:


* Do you have bike trails or somewhere for me to ride my bicycle at the Park?
Bicycles can be ridden along the roadways inside the Park. There is a dedicated bicycle lane on Robert E. Lee Blvd., on the back side of the mountain. Bikers must ride single file and follow all traffic laws.


If it's a theme park, I'm assuming it's private land & roads.

[uforgot]

I offer guidance,only, never admonition.

Thank you and I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

You forgot to add wonderfully witty sarcasm!:D

[Cataboo]

You forgot to add wonderfully witty sarcasm!:D

I've seen her admonish a helpful shaggy man in a kilt.

[crazycanuck]

Yep our original Zen has a wicked sense of humour :cool: & plays an accordian

[Zen]

I've seen her admonish a helpful shaggy man in a kilt.
He was a hazard in himself.
But that's another story.

[Cataboo]

He was a hazard in himself.
But that's another story.

True that.

I'd've kicked him in his kilt if he'd run over my litespeed.

[SadieKate]

Here you go. http://stonemountainpark.com/faq/

Do you have bike trails or somewhere for me to ride my bicycle at the Park?
Bicycles can be ridden along the roadways inside the Park. There is a dedicated bicycle lane on Robert E. Lee Blvd., on the back side of the mountain. Bikers must ride single file and follow all traffic laws.

I'm guessing that since the park is owned by the State of Georgia, state traffic laws apply and that there is traffic through out the hours of operation.

What time do the Park Gates open? What time do the attractions open? Park Gates are open daily, 6:00 a.m. to Midnight. Attraction hours vary. Visit the Operating Dates & Hours page for attraction hours on the day of your visit.

[OakLeaf]

But there are really two things here.

(1) Are the cyclists creating a hazard? Sounds like possibly yes.

(2) Does the hazard created by the cyclists rise to the level that police officers are authorized to use DEADLY FORCE to stop them? Uh, no.

Shooting out a car's tires is considered deadly force. Running a motorcycle off the road, same thing. Intentionally causing a bicyclist to crash at high speed - that's deadly force too.

Sure the cyclists need to cool it. But this is basically the same scenario as a cop shooting a shoplifter. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Geonz]

I agree. I *hope* that the "standing in front" tactic was done out of ignorance and that the resulting crash wasn't expected. (I know, that sounds ridiculous from those of us who know from peletons and physics.) Cops don't swerve in front of speeders to get 'em to stop - and that's just one speeder, not a large group. Seems it would have been far, far more efficient to follow 'em and get out the ticket book.

[Cataboo]

How is a police officer different from a pedestrian standing in the middle of the road? Or a kid darting after a ball? You should be riding so that you can react to something like that when you're not riding in an organized event or have permission from authorities.

There's been 2 incidents at least (or at least 2 that are being objected to here...) I'm assuming that the first time it happened, the cyclists were told to follow the rules and weren't just told "haha, we made you stop!" ... So were the cyclists continuing to break the rules when they were stopped a second time?

And have the cyclists been told several times before that by nicer means not to do whatever they were doing? Or were road blocks set up the very first time that someone wanted to tell them to obey the park rules?

[PscyclePath]

There's no law in the country that allows a group, or peloton of cyclists to behave like a swarm of bees. Unless you've got a permit that allows for road closure and racing, then everyone on the ride must comply with Georgia traffic law... which means riding no more than two abreast, riding as far to the right of the traffic lane as is practicable, if there's a usable bike path or bike lane present then you have to ride on the path and not in the trafic lane, keep at least one hand on the handlebars at all times, use a mechanical brake which can cause the braked wheel to skid, and have pedal reflectors. No tall bikes or "freak bikes" allowed, and no "chopper" style handlebars. (http://www.bicyclegeorgia.com/galaw.html)

And no excuses.... Bicycles are legally defined as vehicles in Georgia, so traffic laws apply to cyclists in the same manner as they do to car & truck drivers, unless a particular rule explicitly applies to "motor vehicles," such as the need to have a driver's license before taking to the roadways.

All the above-cited offenses are misdemeanors under Georgia law, unless you want to go for the bi one, "Racing on the Highways..." which technically they could cite the pack for as well...

As for the stopping technique, just how do you stop a howling pack of 40 riders at once? If they won't pull over for the blue lights, then you're going to have to set up some sort of road block, or those little strips that punch holes in your tires...

How about obeying the law instead of playing like Smokey and the Bandit?

[Cataboo]

How far ahead of the pack was the officer when he stepped out into the middle of the road and put his hand out...


Because seriously, that's risking his own life.... So I'm assuming he was pretty far ahead of them when he did it and expected them to be able to stop before they got to him or swerve around him...

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Sounds like this racing pack of riders might just get all bikes prohibited from riding in the park if they keep it up. Is this fair to the other recreational bike riders? I truly cannot understand riding 30mph+ in a public park where someone might be walking their dog or pushing a stroller or some toddler might be running about. This is happening during daylight park hours, too.

[kermit]

It is a great park, also a CAMP ground. I imagine that campers have complained about almost getting run over. The loop that is probably being ridden on has great climbs (an *** kicker on a mountain bike) but loops around the campground. If I had small kids I would be worried about them getting hurt by a large peleton.

[Thorn]

What's the speed limit? Parks around here are 15-25mph....bicycles are required to obey the speed limit, as well.

While a single rider doing 30 can be dangerous if there are walkers and kids, a peloton doing 30 if the speed limit is reduced is no different than having a larger motor vehicle speeding down the road.

Unless the officer abruptly stopped in front of the cyclists, I think I have more empathy for the cop over the cyclists.

[Pedal Wench]

It is a great park, also a CAMP ground. I imagine that campers have complained about almost getting run over. The loop that is probably being ridden on has great climbs (an *** kicker on a mountain bike) but loops around the campground. If I had small kids I would be worried about them getting hurt by a large peleton.

The campground is by a road with a 25mph speedlimit and usually cars are zooming by much, much faster. However, the campground is far enough away from this main road and separated by a fence that there is no way or reason children should be anywhere near it. With RVs and boat trailers flying by on the main road, kids have bigger problems than bikes.

The road in question is four lanes, with the bikes taking the right lane and cars having the passing lane. Everywhere else, the road is one way with bikes getting an entire lane as a bike lane.

This is all a mess since my club sponsors a women's ride all winter long at this park since it's a relatively safe place to ride at night (after sunset) since there are street lights and there is no thru-traffic. There is a long downhill that we probably go well over the speed limit too. I wonder if they leave us alone because we're a much smaller group (this is our winter ride - we move out to the roads when we get enough daylight after work in the spring) or because we're women, or because in general, we obey the laws - slow significantly at intersections, have front and rear blinkies, etc.

I had a friend injured in the incident last week too. It sounds like the police stepped out expecting the group to be able to stop, but just as he shouldn't expect a car to be able to stop on a dime, the pelaton didn't have time to react. Yes, pedestrians have the right of way, but would you just step out in front of a car riding at the speed limit with no warning?

[SadieKate]

Sounds like you have a policeman who is unable to judge speeds or knows the simple laws of physics. That's a bit scary in a policeman.

Culpability on both sides.

And perhaps that group needs to work with the park officials. By the second physical block, it sure sounds like the group is consistently snubbing law enforcement.

[Cataboo]

Would it be all that much safer if a police officer drove his car behind a peleton with his siren blaring & lights flashing and followed them till they stopped?

I know loud sounds can momentarily freak me out when I'm riding and if I was going 30 mph down a hill, I'd like to say I'd recover before I crashed... but I'm not riding in peletons or a tight formation... Just tottering around at my speed, if I look away for a second or so I can sometimes hit a pothole or grate in the road.

[Zen]

Would it be all that much safer if a police officer drove his car behind a peleton with his siren blaring & lights flashing and followed them till they stopped?


I think that would be much safer.
The flashing light part, anyway. the siren would be a bit startling.
But at least you can't run in to something that's behind you.

[Irulan]

Are we talking Stone Mountain State Park or Stone Mountain THEME park?

[PscyclePath]

Three years ago, a local bike club here in North Little Rock (which rides in full race mode most of the time) used to do much the same thing on the grounds of a VA hospital located at the top of a nice switchback climb. The result: All bikes were banned from the grounds.

It took a great deal of negotiation to get that ban lifted. And to this day, about half an hour before these jokers take off for their Tuesday & Thursday "training rides," the hospital closes the gate at the vehicle entrance and bikes have to go single file through a pedestrian access gate.

Cyclists who respect other road users and obey traffic law are good ambassadors for bicyclists every where. The other guys... well, they're often the reason you can't ride your bike in certain places anymore.

Tom

[SadieKate]

Are we talking Stone Mountain State Park or Stone Mountain THEME park?I have not been there but from what I've read in books and on the internet, it is a state park co-managed with a private corporation.

Here is the state authority's web site.

http://www.stonemountainpark.org/

Stone Mountain Memorial Association (SMMA), a State authority that is self-supporting and receives no tax dollars, is responsible for Georgia’s Stone Mountain Park. Since 1998, SMMA has managed the park through a long-term public/ private partnership with Herschend Family Entertainment Corporation (HFEC), a private corporation that manages all commercial operations in the Park –lodging, retail, special events and attractions. SMMA supervises the lease with HFEC, maintains all public areas (the Natural District which makes up two-thirds of the Park, roadways, utilities, etc.), provides public safety, and supports historical and environmental education services within the Park.

SMMA's mission is to preserve, protect and enhance this wonderful 3,200 acre natural resource for the people of Georgia and visitors from around the world.

[SadieKate]

Would it be all that much safer if a police officer drove his car behind a peleton with his siren blaring & lights flashing and followed them till they stopped?Yes. Do you think the police set up road blocks for cars who are just speeding 5 mph over the limit on the highway? Or does it take a more serious offense such as running from the scene of a crime?

[ZenSojourner]

Hey Zen- they come through at 6:15PM. It's not dark yet. However, assuming they are riding single file or double file then speed would be the factor and yes, slow down is the correct answer. I still believe that the maneuver is an over reaction and is rarely used by state and local PD unless there is an immediate danger to public. This does not rise to such a level as it is a 5 mile strip with a fairly low presence of vehichles and pedestrians pretty much stick to the designated areas.

Originally you said:


even if the riders were in violation of riding more than 2 abreast after sunset.

Which makes it sound like they're riding after sunset.

The problem is this has happened twice, which seems to show a disregard on the part of the riders in this group for warnings already given.

If they're speeding, they're speeding, they need to stop doing that. If they're breaking other rules, they need to stop doing that as well.

Whatever the rules are they need to comply with them. There's no excuse for drag racing by cars on isolated stretches of road, even if there isn't "usually" much traffic there. Same rules apply to bikes. Using the same tactics to stop bikes that are used to stop cars isn't a fault on the part of the police. If you're going to fast to stop, whether in a car or on a bike, you were already in the wrong. There IS an immediate danger to the public when you've got a peloton zipping down a public access road like this.

The point is its not a race track, it's a public road, and there are plenty of reasons people might be walking along a well-lit, public road, with kids and dogs in tow, or kids might be walking along there. It's an issue of public safety. It would appear this has been happening on a regular basis, hence the concern and intervention of the local gendarmerie. In order for the cops to be there on two occasions in the right place at the right time, there must be a pattern of disobeying the rules to which they are responding.

Nobody wants anyone to get hurt. But I don't see how much choice the cops had. At the very least, the first attempt to stop the peloton should have been considered a warning, and yet the group repeats the same offense again?

[Cataboo]

We don't know how often the police have complained to the bike group or not. Or other bike groups if there's multiple bike groups that are doing this...

The faq on the stone mountain site says that you can ride a bike if you do it single file on the road.... not even the 2 abreast that seems to be the Georgia standard.

I know around here, the police routinely step out in front of your car and wave you over if you're violating HOV restrictions, don't have your personal property tax sticker, or you're driving in a shoulder to get to an exit faster in traffic.

None of those are terrible traffic violations that require a person to physically step in front of your car, but cars stop without crashing, and deal.

[ilima]

you can't always pass in the left lane. Some roads are blind, or slow or there's too much on coming traffic. Or, maybe you are like my mom, 80 years old and terrified to pass a group of cyclists on a curvy road....

Yes, but the context of my post was cyclists traveling at the same speed as cars. Why would your 80 yo mom need to pass the cyclists in that case?

Also, left lane implies two lanes going in the same direction. If your mom is afraid to drive he left lane-that is going the same direction as the right lane-perhaps your mom shouldn't be on the road at all.

[ilima]

There's no law in the country that allows a group, or peloton of cyclists to behave like a swarm of bees. Unless you've got a permit that allows for road closure and racing, then everyone on the ride must comply with Georgia traffic law... which means riding no more than two abreast, riding as far to the right of the traffic lane as is practicable...

How about obeying the law instead of playing like Smokey and the Bandit?

Whoa, buddy. Did you read your link? I did and the law says:

"Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, except when turning left or avoiding hazards to safe cycling, when the lane is too narrow to share safely with a motor vehicle, when traveling at the same speed as traffic,

If the bikes were traveling with traffic, they can take the lane. Now, they shouldn't have been riding more than two abreast and I'm certainly skeptical that they were.

[Selkie]

Based on the facts presented, it appears that the cyclists were not following the rules and knew it.

The officer was doing his/her job.

To be honest, I would get nervous coming upon a big group of cyclists riding fast on a curvy park road, even if there was a passing lane. I'm 46 years old and have a good driving record.

We all have a civic duty to obey the rules of the road, regardless of our mode of transportation.

[Irulan]

Yes, but the context of my post was cyclists traveling at the same speed as cars. Why would your 80 yo mom need to pass the cyclists in that case?

Also, left lane implies two lanes going in the same direction. If your mom is afraid to drive he left lane-that is going the same direction as the right lane-perhaps your mom shouldn't be on the road at all.

I guess we are going to get all nitpicky here... somewhere I missed that there were two parallel lanes, and I was picking up the concept of a group of bikers blocking/filling a single lane on a two lane road, in general. Stupid me I guess.

[ZenSojourner]

We don't know how often the police have complained to the bike group or not. Or other bike groups if there's multiple bike groups that are doing this...

I'm pretty sure the first time they stopped the peloton ought to have counted as a warning AND a complaint.

Also, a peloton is fairly anonymous - how would you "complain to the group" if you have no idea of what the group is? I'm wondering whether there have been complaints by non-cycling citizens, possibly newspaper articles . . . in any case, having been stopped once, this group apparently chose to ignore the warning and continue the objectionable behavior.

I like riding my bike on the kind of roads described here, and frankly a high-speed peloton overtaking me and passing me would scare the living daylights out of me, probably would force me off the road if I could get there without crashing . . .

[andtckrtoo]

I'm nervous when groups that large pass me on closed roads. Most of the riders in big groups that have passed me on rides have not been very considerate, honestly. I was on Tour for Woodside on a closed road and a huge group of riders knocked another cyclist who was going up hill more slowly then they were, into the bushes. I stopped to help, they kept racing. I'm not saying that this group is like that, but I have seen the absolute disdain that some elite cyclists have for anyone who is not of their caliber, that I could see how such a group could be considered a threat to public safety.

[withm]

Well we are only getting one side of the story with out the benefit of the laws and or rules in effect in the referenced park.

Sounds to me like it's time for the leader of the peloton and perhaps one eloquent accomplice to sit down for a meeting with the police chief and work out what will, and what will not be tolerated, and to educate the police on the dangers of the methods used to try to stop them. It would be good to get a crash course on the law in that jurisdiction, and may do well to consult a bicycling attorney.

There was a recent blog entry "When the Cop Says Stop" by Bob Mionske posted at Bicycling.com on this very subject, this time in Ohio. It was a peloton of two, but similar situation. It is very long, but just goes to show what happens when things escalate:

http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/04/22/the-right-to-disobey-cops/

Now there is a equally interesting response in a "A “Cop” Responds" by Mark Wheeler, a Florida cyclist, and cop.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadrights/2009/04/29/a-cop-responds/

The lesson is to pick your battles; there is a very fine line between being right, and being dead right.

Let us know how this turns out.

[Cataboo]

The FAQ for stone mountain park says that biking is allowed and bikes must ride single file on the road. And that there is a bike lane on one side of the mountain.

I only brought up whether or not there were complaints before in response to people asking was it really necessary for the police officers to step out into the road or pull the car out to stop the peleton... If there have been multiple complaints before to the bike groups whether it's when they're pulling into the park or out of it by the rangers (I have no idea how this park looks), or comments yelled at them... And if these complaints have been steadily ignored, I can see why a police officer would think that stepping out into the middle of the road is reasonable...

And if nothing else, the fact that there were crashes means that the peleton really isn't riding in a controlled fashion that they can respond to obstacles or pedestrians.

Btw, thanks for teaching me the word peleton, which I find very cool.

[ilima]

I guess we are going to get all nitpicky here... somewhere I missed that there were two parallel lanes, and I was picking up the concept of a group of bikers blocking/filling a single lane on a two lane road, in general. Stupid me I guess.

Not stupid. I've actually been to Stone Mountain. Unless there's a big laser light show thingy going on auto traffic is pretty light--at least it was 10+ years ago when I was last there.

[Pedal Wench]

When we ride in the park, we're typically two across, but to be honest, where there are two lanes in each direction, we'll take the whole lane. In that situation, I feel it's safer for the cars to move to the outside (same direction) lane to pass us, than for them to try to move over slightly and pass us with another car next to them. (Car in outer lane, car sharing inner lane with us.) The traffic is typically very light, especially later in the day. It's a closed loop - there is no through traffic, and all cars have to pay to enter the park - bicycles and peds are free.

The group in question probably was going too fast. But just like a pedestrian shouldn't step out into a line of fast-moving cars, the policeman shouldn't have done the same. Yes, an animal could have done the same, and there wouldn't be an issue - that's an accident. This was intentional.

[ZenSojourner]

When we ride in the park, we're typically two across, but to be honest, where there are two lanes in each direction, we'll take the whole lane.

Hmmm, except . . . apparently the rule is that bikes are to ride single file.

From the Stone Mountain FAQ:

http://www.stonemountainpark.com/faq/


Bicycles can be ridden along the roadways inside the Park. There is a dedicated bicycle lane on Robert E. Lee Blvd., on the back side of the mountain. Bikers must ride single file and follow all traffic laws.

You're not supposed to be riding two abreast, let alone spreading out and taking the whole lane.


The group in question probably was going too fast. But just like a pedestrian shouldn't step out into a line of fast-moving cars, the policeman shouldn't have done the same. Yes, an animal could have done the same, and there wouldn't be an issue - that's an accident. This was intentional.

The flouting of park rules is also obviously intentional, and not only intentional, but repeated. I don't see that the officer had much choice in the matter.

[Eden]

The flouting of park rules is also obviously intentional, and not only intentional, but repeated. I don't see that the officer had much choice in the matter.

I agree with Sadie Kate - even if they were intentionally flouting the rules there is such a thing as responding with unnecessary force... I would like to think the officer didn't know what the consequences of stepping out in front of the cyclists would be, rather than the officer intentionally endangering the cyclists for a minor traffic infraction. It would have been more appropriate to wave them off of the road to ticket/warn them or used lights etc in a squad car to pull them over as they would with any other traffic stop. (I find it hard to believe that officers risk their lives by stepping out in front of cars!)

On another matter - what is the point of requiring cyclists to ride single file if they are traveling the speed limit.... the whole reason for making them do so is to make them easier to pass. If they are traveling the speed limit no one should be passing.....

[ZenSojourner]

I agree with Sadie Kate - even if they were intentionally flouting the rules there is such a thing as responding with unnecessary force...

Stepping into the roadway to wave someone to a stop is not responding with unnecessary force.

Wow! We've got a bunch of people ignoring the traffic regulations, and cops only trying to do their jobs. I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no excuse for this behavior. If you think the rules are unreasonable, lobby to have them changed. But in the meantime it is NOT ok to keep breaking them and expect the cops to do nothing. And standing at the side of the road trying to wave a peloton traveling 30+ mph off to the side of the road amounts to nothing.

I've seen this attitude among cyclists so many times before. Club rides blasting through stop signs. Cyclists passing to the front of traffic at stop lights, or even running the light. I once watched a peloton "take the lane" - not just ONE lane, but ALL the lanes, going the WRONG WAY DOWN A ONE WAY STREET during a sponsored ride. When I asked someone I had recognized riding in the pack later that day why they had done it, he said, "Why not? There wasn't any traffic and it was shorter than the marked route on the ride".

They always justify it saying "it doesn't make sense, there was no traffic, it takes more energy to stop a bike and start again than it does a car, a bike's not the same as a car" etc etc etc.

It seems there's a significant contingent of cyclists that want the same rights as motor vehicles, but don't want to have to obey the same rules and laws.

[SadieKate]

Stepping into the roadway to wave someone to a stop is not responding with unnecessary force.We weren't there to know exactly where this officer stepped, but stepping into the path of oncoming traffic can be dangerous to the traffic and the steppee.

We have no idea if this cop was doing his job properly.

[Tuckervill]

You're new here, ZenS, so I want you to know that none of the people you describe in your last paragraph are posting here. You should do a search on the topic, and give a little more credit to people who have been here longer, and who have fought some of the battles with cars and governments over this issue.

I don't see why the single file rule applies on a 4-lane road. It's probably illegal to pass any vehicle in the same lane if there is a perfectly good, open lane in the same direction just to your left, anyway.

That cop was just an idiot to step out in front of the peloton and cause a wreck. Trying to stop a peloton is kind of like trying to stop a freight train. The lead riders might be able to see what's going on, but the rest of them are going to pile up behind because they aren't given the same opportunity to see and hear what's happening up ahead. Shorter reaction time. If the cop really couldn't predict the consequences of his/her actions, maybe this is not the right field.

The peloton should stop when asked, immediately. Not cooperating with the police only leads to more problems. But, it doesn't appear they were asked in this instance.

Karen

[PamNY]

Stepping into the roadway to wave someone to a stop is not responding with unnecessary force.

ZenS, in my brief career as a bike rider, I have been stopped by cops about five times. The reasons are special events, movie shoots and the like which require bikers to dismount. This is common where I live. At no time have I ever seen a cop step in front of a bike. They use dramatic, unmistakable hand gestures. To step in front of a bike rider, even a pokey one like me, would be dangerous to the rider, the cop and whoever is behind the cyclist.

Pam

[ZenSojourner]

New here or not, I disagree with this attitude that it's ok to break the rules because someone thinks they don't make sense, or that the simple act of stepping into the road constitutes unnecessary force.

A peloton that has been stopped once, and then does the same thing and ends up getting stopped again, THIS time with injuries, certainly is among the contingent I described - cyclists who ignore the rules because they think the rules shouldn't apply to them.

If you don't think that description applies to you, that's fine - I wasn't trying to apply it to you. What I was describing is a mindset among cyclists that we all know exists, and which I personally attribute to the members of this peloton.

[Pedal Wench]

The single file comment refers to the bike lane. Law in Georgia states that bikes can ride two abreast.

As far as taking the lane, the law also says to ride as far to the right as is practical and safe. It is my judgement that it is more practical and safe when I'm traveling at 25mph to take the lane when cars have a whole other lane for themselves. I'm sorry you feel that it's wrong for me to do what I feel is the safest option in this situation, but the law, in this case, agrees that I can do what is the safest option for me and the cars sharing the road with me.

[Eden]

I never said it was OK to break the rules. Yes, I question the rule (note again I never said I thought it was fine to break it - you assumed I feel that way because I questioned the rule, but there is a difference) and a resounding YES that I think the officer did something stupid. What he did the to the pack was the equivalent of tackling someone for jay walking.....

[SadieKate]

As far as taking the lane, the law also says to ride as far to the right as is practical and safe. It is my judgement that it is more practical and safe when I'm traveling at 25mph to take the lane when cars have a whole other lane for themselves. I'm sorry you feel that it's wrong for me to do what I feel is the safest option in this situation, but the law, in this case, agrees that I can do what is the safest option for me and the cars sharing the road with me.When I'm riding at the same speed as the cars, I take the lane also. Matter of fact, there are places in this town where you are required to.

[kacie tri-ing]

It makes me sad that people in the back got hurt (I still have an injured DH at home, and it is really tough to recover from crashes at that speed. One small decision can be hospital, surgery, PT, and lots of pain!). They could have been new to the ride, and likely had little influence on what how the ride was being led.

You would think that with SO many cyclists at Stone Mountain the police would have some experience with stopping them properly and safely to talk to them. Plus, those hills are insanely fast....I don't think I could stop if I were going down them alone....I mean, they are really fast. I could however stop VERY easily going up those hills:rolleyes:

[Geonz]

New here or not, I disagree with this attitude that it's ok to break the rules because someone thinks they don't make sense, or that the simple act of stepping into the road constitutes unnecessary force.

A peloton that has been stopped once, and then does the same thing and ends up getting stopped again, THIS time with injuries, certainly is among the contingent I described - cyclists who ignore the rules because they think the rules shouldn't apply to them.

If you don't think that description applies to you, that's fine - I wasn't trying to apply it to you. What I was describing is a mindset among cyclists that we all know exists, and which I personally attribute to the members of this peloton.

I rather disagree with the attitude of bending phrases and words as you do. No, we weren't at the scene so we don't know exactly what the officer did, but Shifting stepping *into the path of a peleton* into "the simple act of stepping into the road" makes me realize that what you write is not going to bring me closer to learning something from or about the situation.

[Cataboo]

Alright... we're getting sidetracked and grumpy here. And we're all speculating on a park and a situation that most of us haven't seen or know very little about.

It seems that the solution to all of this would be to have a couple bikers meet with the head of the stone mountain police force or to have a meeting of a lot of the bikers that bike in the park and invite the police force to come explain to the bikers what exactly they want them to do...

I'm sure the police aren't happy that bikers were injured with their tactic and I'm sure the police officer that stepped into the road had to have feared for his life during it. This does end up being a liability issue for the park - if some of the bikers in the back decided to sue, it would at the very least tie up resources and probably bring bad publicity to the park.

So it should be possible to have that sort of meeting without recriminations or assigning blame and just to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again and ensure that the cyclists are clear on the rules for biking in the park as the police interpret them, and the police are clear on how they should stop a peleton. And do this before things escalate anymore.

I don't see anything in the faq that claims that the riding single file only applies to the bike lane. As far the as the police are concerned, maybe it doesn't. I don't know if that rule would trumph Georgia law or not on riding as far right as prudent or riding two abreast... But obviously, they can set rules in parks... It's all very well for people to say "I feel that it's safer or it's my judgement" and the reality in situations like this.... That doesn't matter, it's what the judgement of the police and the park authorities is on the matter, especially when they don't have to allow you to have access to the park and especially if they're going to continue tactics like those to get people to stop. You may be able to challenge all of that stuff with a law suit, but I think all of that would come down to how bike friendly a judge was.

[kenyonchris]

OK, ok. I'm a cop, so I'm qualified to comment...and true, we don't know EXACTLY what happened, where and how the cop decided to stop the cyclists FOR SURE. And I am commenting on what I know to be true, but I am telling you that there are cops out there who do things that I shake my head at and say "WHY? WHY?"
But, as any cop that has made more than one traffic stop or has directed traffic for more than, oh, a minute, will tell you, executing traffic stops is THE most dangerous thing we do. As such, we are VERY aware of the safety of the operator we are trying to stop, and the safety of ourselves. I'm not saying there aren't cops who do it unsafely (for either party) but because we work traffic regularly, and are bound by policy and regulations on HOW to do it, we generally try to keep safety at the forefront when executing a stop. Sometimes a quick stop can't be helped, and I have closed my eyes and hoped that traffic wasn't going to hit me as I tried to keep fast moving vehicles from plowing into an accident scene just over a hill or around a curve.
I will also tell you that cyclists, especially a group, are hard to stop. No rearview mirror, and they are sometimes unaware that they CAN be stopped, so unlike cars, aren't hyper-aware of the presence of a cop.
I ride the same streets that I patrol, and I am frustrated by the inconsiderate behavior of motorists. I am also a motorist who is frustrated by cyclists who are inconsiderate or do not think that the traffic laws apply to them.
If you are on a bike, regardless of riding singly or in a group, you are obligated to obey traffic laws. You CAN and SHOULD take the lane when appropriate so as to make motorists aware of where you are and what you are getting ready to do, but I also know that groups, sometimes frustrated by motorists, occupy the lane to force traffic to wait or not pass legally (short passing lanes or whatever). Whether riding in a group or alone, you may come across an accident around the turn, or you may be asked to stop by a cop, sometimes suddenly (accident or emergency ahead). That is part of the deal in using the road, the park trail, or sidewalks in a city.
Off soapbox.

[Grog]

Note that the original poster has not returned to the thread to comment since the first few messages.

[salsabike]

OK, ok. I'm a cop, so I'm qualified to comment...and true, we don't know EXACTLY what happened, where and how the cop decided to stop the cyclists FOR SURE. And I am commenting on what I know to be true, but I am telling you that there are cops out there who do things that I shake my head at and say "WHY? WHY?"
But, as any cop that has made more than one traffic stop or has directed traffic for more than, oh, a minute, will tell you, executing traffic stops is THE most dangerous thing we do. As such, we are VERY aware of the safety of the operator we are trying to stop, and the safety of ourselves. I'm not saying there aren't cops who do it unsafely (for either party) but because we work traffic regularly, and are bound by policy and regulations on HOW to do it, we generally try to keep safety at the forefront when executing a stop. Sometimes a quick stop can't be helped, and I have closed my eyes and hoped that traffic wasn't going to hit me as I tried to keep fast moving vehicles from plowing into an accident scene just over a hill or around a curve.
I will also tell you that cyclists, especially a group, are hard to stop. No rearview mirror, and they are sometimes unaware that they CAN be stopped, so unlike cars, aren't hyper-aware of the presence of a cop.
I ride the same streets that I patrol, and I am frustrated by the inconsiderate behavior of motorists. I am also a motorist who is frustrated by cyclists who are inconsiderate or do not think that the traffic laws apply to them.
If you are on a bike, regardless of riding singly or in a group, you are obligated to obey traffic laws. You CAN and SHOULD take the lane when appropriate so as to make motorists aware of where you are and what you are getting ready to do, but I also know that groups, sometimes frustrated by motorists, occupy the lane to force traffic to wait or not pass legally (short passing lanes or whatever). Whether riding in a group or alone, you may come across an accident around the turn, or you may be asked to stop by a cop, sometimes suddenly (accident or emergency ahead). That is part of the deal in using the road, the park trail, or sidewalks in a city.
Off soapbox.

Thank you, Chris. I appreciate getting a post from a bicycle cop. Very valuable perspective.

[Irulan]

Note that the original poster has not returned to the thread to comment since the first few messages.


that's pretty typical when some posts hoping for sympathy but then the majority doesn't agree with them. (been there done that, hid out for a while afterwards....)

[denny]

Sorry I haven't had a chance to check the messages since I originally posted . Loong work week so far and exhausted. Anyway, I managed to squeeze in an hour of training at Stone Mtn Park yesterday and observed the peleton as they came through. They ride 2 abreast and always before dark. My friends who ride with them state they ride single file if they are doing 22-25mph but they do not exceed the posted speeding limit of 30mph.

I would post pics of the park to provide a better pic of the layout conditions etc but I'm not on my home pc right now. I'm not one of the riders in the group but I work in the healthcare field and have seen more than enough cyclists versus motor vehichle accidents to be concerned that the maneuver may be a bit extreme with a high potential for an ugly outcome. Another police officer who runs at the park has stated that the officers at the park are "known to be really grumpy" and they are known to single out cyclists for minor stuff even though there are people running in the street versus designated pedestrian side walk and lanes.

While the PD have always been polite and pleasant to me, I can relay one conversation with an officer who was trying to "help" the cyclists out. A female cyclist had been hit by a car over the weekend while observing all the rules, etc. I asked about the incident because we had mutual friends. The officer told me to "tell my cyclist friends to be careful because there are cars in the park." The implication being that she was somehow careless. I agree with him that we have the burden to make sure we stay safe. However, I might add that the cyclist was hit because a car made a u-turn right in front of her.:eek: I have had a similar event occur within the last month as well. I have always been told that they would prefer that cyclists not use the park, etc. I can honestly say most non-park regulars are clueless about sharing space with cyclists.

I am not against law enforcement by any means as I always seem to end up dating them somehow. Something about guns and a uniform??? .:D naaah!!
Yes, it may mean re-routing the group ride but I still have to wonder at their methods.

[denny]

that's pretty typical when some posts hoping for sympathy but then the majority doesn't agree with them. (been there done that, hid out for a while afterwards....)


LOL! See my post! Why assume hiding out? Long days without time to check mail, etc.

[ZenSojourner]

I called this afternoon and spoke with the assistant Police chief at Stone Mountain.

They have a different version of the incident in question.

Apparently there have been ongoing problems just in the last 5 years or so with large, fast moving pelotons in the park. They estimate there were 70 riders in the peloton involved in last week's incident. The officer with whom I spoke is a 34 year veteran of the park police force and apparently they had only isolated incidents of problems involving cyclists until just the last 5 years or so, when apparently some local racing clubs decided the multi-use paths (not bike paths) in the park would make excellent training routes.

The officer in question was not trying to flag the peloton down, he got caught in the crosswalk and if he was waving his arms around it was probably to wave them off because he was afraid of getting hit. He saw the group at the top of the hill as he started to cross the street but had no idea they were traveling as fast as they were and they caught him crossing the road IN THE CROSSWALK. Regardless of maximum speed limits posted, any pedestrian in a crosswalk means STOP. If you are going too fast to stop for a pedestrian in the crosswalk, you are going too fast.

The peloton was taking up the entire width of both lanes in that direction. According to both Georgia state law and park regulations, cyclists are to ride in one lane only and not more than 2 abreast, with the additional rule that they ride single file on weekends because of the increased traffic from all park users (pedestrians, cyclists, and motor vehicles). The officer involved reported that the peloton leaders shouted "PEDESTRIAN" as they whizzed past, but did not stop or slow down, with the result being that those following them did not stop or slow down, but rather split around the man in the crosswalk. Georgia law states that all vehicles - whether a car or a bicycle - are to STOP when there is a pedestrian in the crosswalk.

Four cyclists ran into each other. Two were driven by friends to the hospital, one for a shoulder injury and one for some stitches in his finger. No ambulances were involved. While there have been incidents where the police have stopped riders and issued tickets and warnings, the assistant chief was not aware of any recent incidents where an entire peloton had been flagged down and stopped. He was not aware of any officer having pulled a cruiser into the middle of the road to create a road block either. The policy is that the same methods are used to stop cyclists as are used to stop motor vehicles, when that is necessary.

Police reports are a matter of public record. If anyone is that interested in the situation out there, just get copies of the police reports for the past couple of months, but there has not been a concerted effort to chase down these pelotons, only a case-by-case handling of individual situations.

Even the people posting about this incident have as much as admitted that they were taking up both lanes, that they were traveling at a high rate of speed, and that this is not unusual for that particular group of cyclists.

This incident occurred at a crosswalk. Crosswalks mean slow down and prepare to stop. Pedestrians have the right of way at crosswalks, even if they're wearing a uniform. This park is not set up to be a racing training route for large groups of fast moving packs of cyclists. The bicycle path is not actually a bicycle path, it's a multi-use path split between pedestrians, RECREATIONAL cyclists (not racers), and motor vehicles. There is nowhere on the road where these cyclists are riding where there is NOT pedestrian access, crosswalks, and at one point there is access to a playground.

According to the assistant chief, the vast majority of cyclists utilizing the grounds obey the rules, other than the occasional probably inadvertent infraction. It's just these large groups of racers who are consistently causing problems.

[Cataboo]

ZS, you should be a reporter... Have you interviewed the cyclists involved yet?

And I thought that investigative journalism was dead in the US.

[ZenSojourner]

The single file comment refers to the bike lane. Law in Georgia states that bikes can ride two abreast.

As far as taking the lane, the law also says to ride as far to the right as is practical and safe. It is my judgement that it is more practical and safe when I'm traveling at 25mph to take the lane when cars have a whole other lane for themselves. I'm sorry you feel that it's wrong for me to do what I feel is the safest option in this situation, but the law, in this case, agrees that I can do what is the safest option for me and the cars sharing the road with me.

I don't feel any such thing about your riding.

I'm responding to a fast-moving peloton of 70 that ignores traffic regulations, takes up two full lanes, and does not stop for a pedestrian in the cross-walk.

[Cataboo]

ha. Apparently the police aren't the only people in Atlanta aggravated by roadies. I just told a friend that lives in Atlanta about this thread and his immediate responses were:

- was this in a race or were the roadies being the general a**holes that they always are and blocking the f**king road?
- they do that **** around here all the time...atlanta is really bad about it
- 5 PM...20 bikes in the middle of extremely busy roads
- the funny thing is how many places there are in atlanta for roadies to ride and they ride on traffic jam streets
- oh, that is probably the main road for the park, not exactly wide streets, so a pack of roadies would completely block the road
- 2 abreast, yeah right, if there are three roadies on a street in atlanta, there are three people side by side. If there's 4, there's 4 side by side
- the entitlement is ridiculous...not like anywhere else I have lived
- they will go into neighborhoods and ride in loops in packs for hours.
NOT in neighborhoods where they live and then they wonder why the residents get pissed

He's not a roadie, but a mountain biker

[ZenSojourner]

ha. Apparently the police aren't the only people in Atlanta aggravated by roadies.


:eek:

but . . . but . . . but *I* am a roadie! *WEEP*

See I separate people like this off into a different group which I call the "racerati".

This is a group of cyclists that have their own culture and rules and secret handshakes and all that.

These guys are not just racers. Just because you race you are not a member of the racerati. Not even if you actually WIN your races. In fact, ESPECIALLY not if you actually WIN your races. Being a member of the racerati does not mean you are actually a competitive racer at all, though you probably THINK you are, and like to PRETEND you are.

No, no, no, there is much more to being a member of the racerati than merely owning (or at least aspiring to own) a $10,000 carbon frame bike and the sleekest of anti-friction lycra jersey's and shorts.

If you aspire to become a member of the racerati there are a few things you need to get down pat.

Firstly, there is the Racerati Sneer. This sneer should be pasted across your face at all times, but particularly when any non-racerati cross your path. In particular, you must be prepared to sneer full blast at any of the following:


Anyone with a triple
Anyone on a mountain bike, hybrid, recumbent, Bike Friday, or MOST ESPECIALLY a mixte, step-through frame, Schwinn, Huffy, or other Big Box Store Brand Bicycle
Anyone more than 5 pounds UNDERweight
Anyone with duct tape anywhere on their helmet or bike
Anyone with a kickstand
Anyone who stops at red lights, stop signs, or crosswalks
Anyone who uses the brakes when going downhill
Anyone wearing a hydration pack


Secondly, you must be a First Class Bike Snob. Here's how:

Bike Snobbery 101 (http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/?id=2005/nelson_bike_snob)

Thirdly, you must make sure you are properly outfitted (also, more about proper Bike Snobbery):

So You Want to be a Cyclist: Part 1: Choosing Your Equipment (http://www.fatcyclist.com/2009/01/26/so-you-want-to-be-a-cyclist-part-i-choosing-your-equipment/)

So You Want to be a Cyclist: Part 2: Lifestyle Changes (http://www.fatcyclist.com/2009/01/27/so-you-want-to-be-a-cyclist-part-ii-lifestyle-changes/)

Then, you must learn to love The Peloton. You must ride the roadways like a swarm of angry hornets. You must clump together as if tigers are stalking you and pulling down the weaker members of the herd at the edges and rear of The Peloton. Similarly you must jockey for position at the front of The Peloton in order to avoid contamination by said weaker members of the herd. You must think with a Single Mind, Swerve as The Peloton Swerves, Climb as The Peloton Climbs, single organelles yet all part of a vast, Amoebic body.

And finally, and most important - you must show a fine contempt and complete and total disregard for everyone else on the road, for all traffic regulations except as applied to other people, and you must believe totally and unwaveringly in the Complete Infallibility of Your Right To Take The Entire Road, Not Just The Lane.

And remember, All Pedestrians Belong in Cars, and ALL Cars Belong At The Bottom of the Ocean.

:p

[Cataboo]

*cough*

Apparently he's not the only one with unresolved anger at racerati.

He was fine with 1 or 2 roadies, he just went on a rant about the packs.

I will make sure to get my terminology straight in the future, as I toodle along on my triple.

[PamNY]

ZenSojourner, what grade did you say you are in at school this year?

Pam

[kacie tri-ing]

Hmmmm....I am a native georgian who loves atlanta, but it is not the easiest city to ride in :rolleyes:

I am not defending anyone, but the city does not do a whole lot to make it easier on us (granted, I am a bike commuter and triathlete who rarely rides in packs because I practice without a draft most of the time...). I know that I am not the people he was complaining about, but it always tough to hear people upset with your city when they are usually a part of the traffic problem (not always, of course! There are a *few* who walk, bike, or take public transit sometimes, but it is not easy here!). :D

I think there are some relationship issues between motorists, cyclists, and the city (remember we have crazy sprawl and insane traffic. We are always at the top of the "bad city pollution" lists).

There is a reason we drive from the city out to the silver comet trail and stone mountain to actually be able to ride....I live in the middle of atlanta, but I save my city riding for weekend mornings :p

And I do NOT want to end up in any tense conflict, I just can't help but explain my city at least a little bit!:p

[ZenSojourner]

ZenSojourner, what grade did you say you are in at school this year?

Pam

I am beyond mere "grades". I am working on my doctorate.

*SNIFF*

/me assumes snootiest possible expression

:D

PS - My son is also currently working on his doctorate. We're racing to see who finishes first. I'm pretty sure he's going to win.

[ZenSojourner]

I just can't help but explain my city at least a little bit!:p

Truthfully I have read that Atlanta is The Worst City to Ride Bike In.

Although, having been forced on occasion to drive in Boston traffic, I don't see how that can POSSIBLY be. Boston's scary enough in a car, I'm pretty sure I don't have the cajones to try it on a bike.

[ZenSojourner]

BTW, we as cyclists are invited by the Stone Mountain Police Department to come and ride there.

The assistant chief did suggest, however, that we might want to avoid coming on a Tuesday or Thursday afternoon/evening as this is when the largest of the fast pelotons likes to zoom through the park.

:eek:

[Cataboo]

He works from home, so he's not part of the traffic problem.

I've got the luxury of having nice rolling countryside a few miles from my house, so I avoid riding near cars as much as possible. It's just unpleasant.


it always tough to hear people upset with your city when they are usually a part of the traffic problem (not always, of course! There are a *few* who walk, bike, or take public transit sometimes, but it is not easy here!). :D

I think there are some relationship issues between motorists, cyclists, and the city (remember we have crazy sprawl and insane traffic. We are always at the top of the "bad city pollution" lists).

[Pedal Wench]

BTW, we as cyclists are invited by the Stone Mountain Police Department to come and ride there.

The assistant chief did suggest, however, that we might want to avoid coming on a Tuesday or Thursday afternoon/evening as this is when the largest of the fast pelotons likes to zoom through the park.

:eek:

:) Please come in the winter for our WEDNESDAY night ride at Stone Mountain Park. Men are welcome but they can't ride up front setting the pace. We ride two abreast and are light up like Christmas trees - which is especially festive when we ride through the light displays around the holidays singing carols.

The city is bad for riding, which is why we descend on those few neighborhoods that are safer for riding. In general, we have no real problems.

If anyone wants to meet for an intown ride, I have quite a few that weave through the nice residential areas and avoid the roads that are scary.

[denny]

BTW, we as cyclists are invited by the Stone Mountain Police Department to come and ride there.

The assistant chief did suggest, however, that we might want to avoid coming on a Tuesday or Thursday afternoon/evening as this is when the largest of the fast pelotons likes to zoom through the park.

:eek:

Giggles on this ZenS. I'm cordially inviting you to my home city and I'm sure you will miss the peloton as they almost arrive at 6:15pm on the dot from the Avondale Pizzeria. However, I think his comment is hilarious as a lot of people pull over at the side of the park just to watch the group come through. :D I run, bike and walk the park and most of us like to watch them. That's what makes the PD comment funny! For your viewing benefit, I'll also post pics of your biking terrain in another post.

[Skierchickie]

Did I miss something? I've seen lots of references here to the bikers having been pulled over more than once for the same thing, but I haven't been able to find what that is, other than pure conjecture. Lots of assumption that it was for speeding and riding too many abreast. Which has grown, multiplied, become fact somehow (and, it sounds like, grown from 2 to MANY pullings-over). Now it sounds like one of the pullings-over was more of an almost-running-over of a cop/pedestrian, and maybe the other one didn't actually happen??:confused:. That is a very bad thing, and should not be tolerated, but I think it shows that maybe, just maybe this thread has taken on a life of its own. I'm glad the OP was able to come back, and it seems like more facts are actually known, and maybe things are settling down. I just hate to see so much anger building over something not many people knew the facts about. I've been noticing anger building in other seemingly-innocent threads lately, too, and I'm finding it kind of off-putting. Probably the only reason I'm mentioning it here.

My 2 cents. :o Please don't beat me.

[kacie tri-ing]

He works from home, so he's not part of the traffic problem.

I've got the luxury of having nice rolling countryside a few miles from my house, so I avoid riding near cars as much as possible. It's just unpleasant.

That sounds nice! :D

[kenyonchris]

I only find humor in the cop being swallowed up by the peloton and waving his arms around like he was swatting at bees because I can SO see it happening. It isn't funny at all except in the absurdity of it....like a cartoon.
I don't think we have any "racerati" here....we have inconsiderate people, and bike snobs (of which I can sometimes be one if I don't keep myself in check), and ignorant people and sometimes just people in the wrong place at the wrong time. I make fun of my SO because he shows up to ride his MTB in full road kit, he makes fun of me because I ride my nice road bike in a t-shirt (I personally cannot stand to have my body used as a billboard like he does).
I generally think rude riders, like rude motorists, rude people, whatever, are the exception, not the norm.
Now who says all cops are jaded and cynical?

[denny]

Did I miss something? I've seen lots of references here to the bikers having been pulled over more than once for the same thing, but I haven't been able to find what that is, other than pure conjecture. Lots of assumption that it was for speeding and riding too many abreast. Which has grown, multiplied, become fact somehow (and, it sounds like, grown from 2 to MANY pullings-over). Now it sounds like one of the pullings-over was more of an almost-running-over of a cop/pedestrian, and maybe the other one didn't actually happen??:confused:. That is a very bad thing, and should not be tolerated, but I think it shows that maybe, just maybe this thread has taken on a life of its own. I'm glad the OP was able to come back, and it seems like more facts are actually known, and maybe things are settling down. I just hate to see so much anger building over something not many people knew the facts about. I've been noticing anger building in other seemingly-innocent threads lately, too, and I'm finding it kind of off-putting. Probably the only reason I'm mentioning it here.

My 2 cents. :o Please don't beat me.

Exactly! This thread has taken on more than a life of it's own which was not my intent. I could comment on the officers statement, but that would cause the thread to grow and grow and... you get the picture. If nothing else, it's given me an idea to pursue with the park. If it comes to fruition I'll let you guys know. By the way, there is a good chance I won't be able to check on messages for a few days. So, don't take it as an indicator of "hiding out" , it's called working, training, baby sitting and just life!

I hope everyone has a wonderful day and weekend with some great days for riding in fantastic weather. Stay safe and I truly appreciate the input of everyone.