Custom Bike - 650 vs. 700 wheels

[Susan Otcenas]

I am working with Sweetpea Bicycles in the design stage of my first ever full custom bicycle. I'm soooooo excited. I've been through a multi-hour fit session with one of the best bicycle fitters in the country (Micheal Sylvester) as well as Natalie Ramsland, the owner of Sweetpea.

Based on my measurements, Natalie can build me a bike that fits with either 650c or 700c wheels.

There are pros and cons with each size wheel.

650 Pros
1) Bike design in more aesthetically pleasing (the small frame size looks in proportion with the smaller wheels
2) Lighter wheels and less rotational mass. Small wheels accelerate faster than large. Very nice wheel sets are available in 650 (many triathletes use 650s)
3) Fewer toe overlap issues

650 Cons
1) Fewer tire choices - both in width & color
2) Fewer fork choices - there is a carbon 650 fork, though
3) No stock 650 forks have fender clearance. Not a huge big deal, as I could use a race blade on front if necessary.
4) Spare tubes not as readily accessible - no relying on ride mates for an extra spare if you have an unlucky day.
5) Can achieve the same gearing as on a 700C bike, but need larger front chain rings to do it (ie bumping up to a 53x11 or 54x11 to get the same gear inches as a 52x12 with 700c wheels)

700 Pros
1) the world is your oyster on wheels, tires, forks, etc
2) every shop on the planet has replacement tires/tubes. Most of you r ride mates will have 700cs as well

700 cons
1) very small frame looks odd with larger wheels. Frame geometry has to change a fair bit to achieve the same position/fit
2) greater rotational mass on the larger wheels - accelerates more slowly
3) toe overlap


I'm sure there are other pros/cons... What are your thoughts?

Susan

[Becky]

Interesting dilemma. Can you please put this in perspective for me- how tall are you, and what sort of frame dimensions are you considering? Having ridden both 650s and 700s, I have some thoughts, but I'd like to tailor them to the situation.

Thanks!

[Biciclista]

well, let's dispense with the fork problem right off since you're getting a custom bike. Get the custom fork that your builder is so proud of and you'll do fine.

I went with the 700 wheels myself when faced with the same dilemma and honestly, i wish i had the 650's when i see how nice they look.
i have friends with 650's and have been told that they don't feel like they are working any harder than they did before.

however, my husband who has 700's was kind of strong in wishing that we had the same kinds of tires (which also eliminated the terry with it's odd front wheel)

Next time i'm getting a 650 :cool:

[Crankin]

I've had both and honestly, for me, there has been no difference. I just bought a bunch of tubes and kept 3 in my bag at all times. I do think though, that you are right in the aesthetic thing. The bigger wheels look slightly off on a small frame.
I would go back to 650's if that was what the bike I wanted had.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Yes, how tall are you?- in other words, just how small is this bike?

I'd also be interested in knowing whether it will be lugged or tig-welded- lugs can limit the range of fine tuning possibilities of the geometry/angles in the frame, so this would have a bearing on wheel size.

[DebW]

Will your frame be steel or ti or something else? Custom steel forks are nice and can provide fender clearance if that is an option from your builder.

I had a custom road/commute/touring bike built two year ago in steel. I'm 5'7" with a 32 inch inseam and went with 650. Actually, I let the builder pick the optimum wheel size (though he was on the fence until I told him my shoe size). I'd rather have perfect frame geometry than a compromise to fit a pre-determined wheel size. And the feel and handling of this bike makes it worth it. At the builder's suggestion, I have two wheelsets, 650c and 26". I run 650x23 tires on one wheelset and 26x1.3" (sometimes 26x1.5") tires on the other. That's one way to get a wide choice of tires. The brake pads have to be moved by 3-4 mm when I switch wheels. As it turns out, I love the feel and versatility of the 26x1.3" tires so much that I ride them most of the time. I run full fenders most of the time also.

[Becky]

DebW, what concessions would your builder have had to make with the frame geometry if 700c wheels had been used?

[fidlfreek]

I am 5'2 and both of my road bikes are 700s. I don't think the bikes look weird at all! On the contrary, I feel like bikes w/ 650s look just SO tiny especially when you're riding in a pace line or in a pack. Also, on a 650 you're less likely to provide any wind coverage when its your turn to pull.

Plus, its very very nice to be able to swap wheels w/ my BF whenever I need to use a set of wheels w/ a tire to ride on dirt, or a super sexy carbon wheelset. You did mention this in the pros/cons but just thought I'd add it for good measure :)

[Susan Otcenas]

Natalie can give me the same fit/body position on the bike, regardless of the size of the wheels. That does require some small changes in the frame geometry, but the most crucial thing is that the FIT will be the same.

So my height, body size, etc. are not really germaine to the conversation I want to have in this thread.

What I'm looking for feedback on is your thoughts on the pros and cons of the wheelsize. Those of you with 650s, am I unreasonably concerned about tire/tube availability? etc. Aesthetics matter to me too.

EDIT: I just tried to post links to images of the proposed design, but there are access issues, so it won't work.

The 700c bike has 12 degree slope in the top tube of the 700c, which I'm not sure I care for. And the small frame looks scrunched between those big wheels. The 650c bike looks proportionate to me.

[ilima]

I'm so jealous. I saw her profile in Bicycling last year and I've got her site bookmarked!

I'm on the edge of either 650 or 700. If I bought a tri bike I know I'd go with 650s. I have 700 wheels on my Merlin--which I absolutely love. But--I also covet the Cervelo RS, which in my size (XS) comes with 650 wheels. And an 'ideal' STA of 73 degrees. And my Merlin does, indeed, look like a little frame in between big wheels.

I say fight the tyranny of 700c wheels! If small women keep accepting bikes with 700 wheels that make compromises in geometry there never will be enough of a critical mass for manufacturers to offer more choices for smaller wheels.

Pros/Cons of 650s
As to gearing, that's a non-issue as I ride a compact on my Merlin. On a 650 bike I'd use a standard crankset. Done.

Tires choices are definitely more limited. I've been riding Schwalbe Stelvios (purchased from TE, in fact) and I like all the color choices, but more importantly I like the tires. And they are available in the 650 size, just not in all the colors.

Is it really windy where you live? 650 wheels have less surface area exposed to the wind.

You can use 700c tubes in a pinch; just fold them over. Also, any shop that sells a decent number of tri bikes will have 650 tubes in stock. Tire selection probably isn't that great; OTOH, most shops don't even carry the 700c tires I want.

Good luck deciding.

[Becky]

I couldn't get the PDFs to open.

Personally, I prefer the 700c wheels. But, then again, I ride a ~49cm frame. If I were smaller and needed a smaller bike, I might feel differently about it.

For me, standover height is never an issue, so I don't have that concern that might warrant smaller wheels. I guess I've been lucky- small frames with reasonably "traditional" geometry work well for me. I haven't experienced any toe overlap issues on my roadie, though my commuter/cross frame is another story. It's something that I've grown accustomed to on that bike, and hardly notice anymore.

I prefer the 700c wheels b/c they allow me and DH to swap wheels (which happens frequently in our house). I had a hard time finding 650c tires that weren't race tires when I owned a bike with those size wheels, and they were almost always an internet or special order purchase. Tubes were fairly easy to find. For me, easy access to standardized parts is important.

As for the acceleration difference, it's not something that I remember loving about the 650c bike, or hating about my current 700c ones. It just is.

*shrugs* I dunno. It seems like a personal preference thing, and my preference may very well change as I log more miles. But, for now, 700cs work for me.

[jobob]

How exciting for you!

Just curious, are you considering a carbon fork?

The only negative wrt to 650 I could think of was con #4, the fact that you might not be easily able to borrow a 650 tube from someone on a ride, but you're more than capable of carrying a spare tube, and perhaps a patch kit, so that's not much of an issue imho. :cool:

Looking forward to hearing about how it goes!

[Fredwina]

Also, shouldn't a 650C(571) be sturdier than a 700c(622) with the same spoke count?

[MM_QFC!]

...
PS--Get what you want. You're going to be riding your custom bike for a very long time.

+1

I have 1 of each and love them: 650s on my custom steel Rodriguez
700s coming on my soon-to-be here "replacement" Seven (titanium)...yes, there's a toe overlap consideration on the 700 wheelset and I'll have @10 degree of slope on my top tube, but I had it on my previous Seven (destroyed by a car crash) and it was not ever an issue. I was aware that 3 things need to happen, at the same time for a toe overlap calamity to happen: very slow speeds, hard turn of the front wheel and front foot in wrong position. I had that bike for 4 yrs and it never was an issue, so I don't expect with the new one either.

I'd only suggest that you pack or carry at least a replacement tire as I had a surprise blowout while on a training ride once. Not in Seattle proper, but out in the Carnation valley to the East; I tried to boot it but it wouldn't hold. Luckily a friend's husband was providing support in his pick-up, so he took me to 5 different bike shops in every town all along our century route; no one carried 650s, so my ride ended too darn early that day. That's the only time it happened to me, but I learned my lesson f'sure and since the Rodriguez is now my commuter bike w/a rack, I have a replacement (folder) tire stowed/along on every ride now.

The other incident with 650s was on the Montana AIDS Vaccine ride in 2001 and my friends tire blew while we were sitting near our bikes at our lunch stop. The ride mechanic did not have any 650s and, since we were in the middle of the ride week, she had to get someone to driver her into Bozeman
(1.5hr drive off the route :eek:) in order to buy a new set...whew! (She also now carries at least 1 back-up tire EVERYwhere!).
It would be great if 650s did become more commonplace, in order to avoid those exceptional situations that stop rides completely, but it's a caveat to plan for taking along anything that you might need, that's all.
Tailwinds!
Mary

[Blueberry]

I'd go with 700.

You're selling your Friday since you're getting this bike, right? That makes me think you're planning to use it for longish riding and maybe touring. With 650c wheels, you will not (from what I've heard) have wide enough tire options. With 650b wheels (not that you mentioned that option), you wouldn't have narrow enough tire options for fast-ish club rides (my opinion, I know folks disagree). It seems you would have to pick one purpose or the other.

Either way, I'm sure you'll love the bike. Natalie builds some beautiful bikes!!

CA

[NbyNW]

I'm one of those short women riding a 43cm bike with 650c wheels.

I have a Profile Design BSC fork (I would guess the 1-1/8" steerer size) which I'm told has clearance for fenders, but I haven't tried . . .

I've not yet had to replace the stock tires that came on my bike, but I feel that there are some good quality options available, so I'm not worried about it. Are there specific tires that you like on your current bike(s) that are not available as 650c?

I did notice, after many months with my bike, that I do still have a little bit of toe overlap. I would have to be pedaling through a pretty sharp turn for this to be an issue, and it hasn't been.

I like the lower center of gravity that the 650c wheels give me. When I was shopping for this bike, I just couldn't get comfortable on a 700c wheel bike (never mind that all the bikes in stock were just a bit large for me), since I had some back/hip range of motion issues and balance issues.

I have not had the opportunity to ride a 700c wheel bike that is the right size for me, so cannot comment on comparison.

[NbyNW]

Those of you with 650s, am I unreasonably concerned about tire/tube availability?

What MM_QFC said -- just have to be prepared that ride support or unfamiliar LBS's might not have what you need in a pinch. Luckily hasn't happened to me, but I think I will take the advice to port a spare tire on my next out of town ride.

Since R+E/Rodriguez has made a niche of building small bikes with 650c wheels, they ALWAYS have parts in stock for that wheel size. And they're a 10-minute ride from my house, so it's easy for me to drop in there and get what I need.

[GLC1968]

My road bike is 650's. It's a gorgeously proportinate bike, too. My previous two road bikes had 700's and they looked odd in comparsion (small frame, big wheels).

I love the 650's and have had really no problems getting tubes. In fact, my first flat on this bike happened as I pulled into a rest stop on a century. The SAG at that stop actually had a 650 tube for me, so I didn't even need to use my own.

If you want fatter tires, finding bigger tubes/tires IS harder. But for a road bike with 23mm tires - it's really never been a problem (in 2.5 years). I do not have fenders on that bike - it only gets ridden in nice weather.

Honestly, in comparison to my commuter that has one 700 and one 24", two 650's is a piece of cake. Of course, if you have wheel troubles, stopping by a fellow cyclists house to borrow a wheel could be harder. Unless, of course, it's my house. ;) :p

[redrhodie]

Based on your pro and con list, I'd go with the 650s.

[coyote]

as an owner of 650's I would go for the 700. It is hard to find tires. All the cool or useful ones are never in my size. There is never a sale on them and they are never an 'overstocked' item.

[Eden]

I also have bikes with both 700's and 650's - I prefer the 700's. I don't find them aesthetically displeasing at all.....

Tubes - no problems finding 650 tubes, but then again I do live in the big city and have tons of shops to pick from. 650 long stem tubes for my deep V's are a little harder, but still not impossible. If you have to rely on chain stores you probably won't find much.

Tires - definitely less of a selection. My 650 wheel bike is my commuter and getting hold of good puncture proof winter tires was a bit difficult. They always are a special order and many models are not available at all. I had Kendas that I really liked, but they stopped making the 650 size :mad: and I went with Gatorskins, that I don't like as much, when I replaced them.

Rims - the selection actually is kind of sucky.... Yeah you can get high end tri wheels, and they are often cheaper than the same in a 700, (this came in handy for outfitting my TT bike, which is also 650) but try looking for a more heavy duty rim. Like I said my 650 bike is my commuter/winter bike. I found the selection of nice sturdy rims to be sadly lacking

As far as the cons of 700's

I don't find my 700 wheel bike to be odd looking or disproportionate
I don't find the handling of my 700 wheel bike to be twitchy or even any different from that of my 650 bike
I don't have any toe overlap.... (though I will admit to having very small feet)

[TxDoc]

Hi Susan,
first of all let me throw in a little disclaimer: I am not an expert or a pro, so put whatever I say in perspective.
I would strongly recommend 700c. The advantages are enormous - one above all being the endless choice of wheels and tires for 700c. You can find the best wheelsets in this size, both clinchers and tubulars.
The perceived 'issues' with 700's on small frames are really not a deal in my opinion:
The slower acceleration is rarely an issue - as most pro racers can demonstrate, since they race 700's.
People that suggest 650's to avoid toe overlap make me wonder whether they plan to ride in a parking lot at 4mph. Toe overlap is basically never an issue in road riding because 1-we do not usually steer, and 2-we do not ride slowly enough to even encounter that problem. So that is sort of a myth the way I see it.
I would go with 700c wheels, and pick a wheelset you like.
Oh, and by the way - CONGRATS on your custom build!!! :)

[sbctwin]

I, as an owner of a Bella Lightspeed with 650c wheels, had little choice for my selection. At 4'10" when I looked for a new road bike, I wanted a bike that fit. I was tired of 'make do' with what was out there. Now, at 4'9.75" or less, I am happy with the 650c's on my bike. I sure wish I could ride a bike with 700c wheels, but I can't:rolleyes:!! or do I say, I shouldn't:( ... I am happy with Bella, because it will be the last road bike I purchase, I hope:rolleyes:/... My mom, bless her heart, had shrunk in inches to 4'6" before she died. My twin still holds out to be 4'11". I know, as I get older, I won't be as tall and at close enough to be 56, I want a bike that will last me until I can no longer ride and that probably means when I am dead because I hope to be riding in some fashion until then:)!!! I am in the market for a new commuter and it has become increasingly difficult to find something that will fit me until I am 65 and hope to retire...I may just save enough pennies for that custom bike :p

[Triskeliongirl]

I ride a 48cm cervelo RS w 650c wheels. Its the best handling bike I ever had, and there is no toe clip overlap. I have no problem getting tires (love the schwalbe stelvio 23c), and in a pinch you can use a folded over 700c tube. The aesthetics are great too (see pic attached). I posted the pic to make the point that everything on a bike needs to be proportional, so it makes sense that a small frame will have small wheels, shorter reach bars, etc.

If you want wider tires (terry makes a 28c) or do like Deb, and ask your builder to make it so you can swap out 650c and 26" wheelsets.

I think its crazy to build a small frame around 700c wheels unless you require neutral race support that only carries 700c.

Regarding the gearing, its true that the gearing will be lower for the same chain rings, but I found for me it made it easier to gear the bike a tad lower which is great for climbing. Mimi, there is no reason to believe you would work harder with smaller wheels as long as you choose an appropriately sized chain rings and casette.

So, while there are more choices in wheel and tire for 700c, there is no shortage of excellent wheels and tires in 650c, although you may have to mail order.

[Bluetree]

Wheelsets. Wheelsets. Wheelsets.

700c wheels allows me options and benefits that just aren't possible with 650's. I can borrow wheelsets from teammates to test them out, experiment with types/weights, and get great deals with members of the local community. I've experienced tubulars, deep rims, carbon, ultralights, bladed spokes, you name it -- and marvelled at how the different technologies transform how my bikes roll. Speaking for myself, I know I would be sorely disappointed if I didn't have those options. YMMV.

[sarahkonamojo]

Reading between the lines. You WANT the 650 bike. So maybe you should just get it. And see what the fuss is about.

Seems the only negative to the 700 is the toe overlap. And aesthetics, PLLLEASE, nothing beats a new ride. Besides you will be on it, not looking at it ride by.

sarah

[Triskeliongirl]

It a little more complicated than that. Cervelo has some good info. on this at their website, as they offer 48cm riders a choice of the RS w 650c or the R3 with 700c, which they think are the two most accptable solutions, which I agree with: http://www.cervelo.com/bikes.aspx?bike=RS2009#G.

To build a small framed bike with 700c wheels, one of three things have to happen to fit the 700c wheel. One is severe toe clip overlap, which some people think isn't a problem, especially at high speeds on a racing bike, but clearly there are mixed opinions on this, especially for a more multi-use bike (and I have friends that have taken bad falls, or just got sick of always having to think about it, and some of us do need to navigate moving in and out of parking lots a couple times a day or traffic at slow speeds where it is a problem, but this is clearly an issue we will all have to agree to disagree on, it is very personal). There are many good racing bikes built this way, including the R3, blue, etc., so its clearly an option, especially for women who race and want access to a wider variety of high end wheels as blue tree mentioned.

The second option is changes to frame angles to accomodate the larger wheel in an attempt to reduce tco. Usually this means increasing the fork rake to push the front wheel further away from the rider, but this results in a bike that is too stable and handles poorly (I test rode a 50cm trek madonne that had this problem, it was very hard to get it to turn, felt like I was driving a mach truck).

The third option is to build the bike with too long a top tube, and expect the rider to accomdote with a very short stem. This also results in a bike that handles poorly, because it is too twitchy since the steering arc is dramatically reduced. (Or in this situation a rider could also push the saddle too far forward which effects their effeciency and balance on the bike).

SO, pros of 650c wheels are no toe clip overlap and good handling, with a reduced but adequate (at least for most of us) supply of high end wheels.

THe pros of 700s are a wider supply of high end wheels, but either severe toe clip overlap or compromises to the frame geometry that will effect the handling.

From what Susan says she wants this bike to do, I would recommend 650.

To understand better why its hard to fit a 700c wheel in a small framed bike, view the videos here: http://www.terrybicycles.com/videos
especially frame design 1 and 2.

[Triskeliongirl]

FYI, I pasted this nice explanation from the link I gave above from the cervelo website which I think gives a pretty balanced explanation of the issues (and they do sell 48cm bikes with both wheel sizes):

You will notice three geometric changes on the RS.

Longer headtube, to match the higher handlebar position.
Longer chainstay length. Because a higher handlebar position rotates the rider’s torso and therefore his center of gravity backwards. Longer chainstays ensure the weight distribution between the two wheels remains balanced for optimal handling characteristics.
Eliminated toe-overlap by using 650c wheels for the XS size. Toe overlap is not a problem for experienced riders, but can be intimidating for some. Using 650c wheels in the XS size is the only way to solve this problem without compromising the weight distribution and thus handling. Every solution that eliminates toe-overlap but keeps 700c wheels suffers in handling.
Explanation for the 650c wheel solution on the XS size: A smaller frame means the front wheel moves closer to the rider’s feet, causing toe-overlap. While inconvenient at walking pace, this issue disappears at normal riding speeds as the actual steering angles become very small. There are four ways to deal with this:

1) Accept toe overlap, after all it is not a problem if the rider is aware of it at low speeds, and it does not occur at higher speeds.
2) Use 650c wheels, which allow us to move the wheel closer but thanks to its smaller diameter it will never touch the rider’s toes.
3) Leave the front wheel far out front, but then the weight distribution will not be balanced.
4) Mess up the rider position by moving the rider forward instead of the wheel and handlebar rearward. But a changed position will not be comfortable, and the weight distribution will again be compromised.

Compromised weight distribution and therefore handling make options 3 and 4 unacceptable, leaving options 1 & 2. If you are a racer and neutral support is important, or you want commonality of parts with other 700c bikes, then option 1 is the best solution. We offer this on most of our road bikes. Option 2 is a great solution if you are concerned about toe overlap, never need neutral support and carry a spare for yourself (since your riding partners will likely have only 700c spare tubes, although even those work in a pinch, just fold them in – no problem).

[Triskeliongirl]

One more point Susan, in your original post you commented the the FIT would be identical with either design, but ask about the *handling* and TCO. Fit just describes your contact points on the bike, basically the points where your bottom, feet and hands contact the bike. You can keep that constant on bikes with many diff geometries (using diff. stems, etc), but the bikes will not always handle or perform the same. On some, you may even have pain if your body is not well balanced. I assune with a custom build both designs that are being proposed will have you balanced, but you need to understand if the only difference will be TCO w the 700c, or there will also be compromises that effect handling.

[MartianDestiny]

I certainly agree that choices in geometry affect handling and thus the geometry considerations when considering 700c vs. 650b should also be looked at from a handling perspective.

However, I've gotten the impression from this thread that if you want a 700c wheel on a small bike then you are going to have to live with either a) a horribly sluggish slow steering bike with the wheel way out in front of you b) a horribly twitchy bike or c) some weird compromise in your seat vs. pedals position.

As a 5' tall rider with two 700c road bikes (one an XS Giant and one a 47cm Wilier) I disagree. Yes, the geometry on both bikes is slightly different than the medium versions. However both of them have different handling characteristics that fall well within normal and are in fact adjusted to the purpose of the bike, just like the bigger frame sizes. The Giant is more stable, but it's also an entry level, relaxed geo bike. The Wilier is a race machine and acts every bit of the part, including the quick handling (but not twitchy). I rode quite a few bikes before I bought the Wilier, all of them 700c. I could feel different handling characteristics in most. None of them had horrible handling IMO (I didn't like the Trek for other reasons).

Anyway my point is that yes there are compromises for both wheel sizes. Handling is not necessarily one, especially not to the extremes in some of the other posts. A good builder is able to get the bike to handle the way they (you) want it to, at least in my size (46, 47cm) with either wheel size.

Me, I ride 700c and have no desire to change that.

[ZenSojourner]

The 700c bike has 12 degree slope in the top tube of the 700c, which I'm not sure I care for. And the small frame looks scrunched between those big wheels. The 650c bike looks proportionate to me.

I'd go with the 650c wheels

I had a bike once with 700c wheels and a sloped top tube. This meant there was less room at the headset to adjust stem height - actually in this case there was NO room to adjust the headset as it was already higher than the seat and could not be lowered. I rather doubt Sweetpea's design using 700c wheels would be anywhere near that bad, but as has been pointed out and as I think you acknowledged, there have to be trade offs in smaller bikes with 700c wheels.

Your adjustment options will be much better with the 650c frame, but since this is a custom fit I rather doubt you'll need to adjust much. Still, you never know how things might change for you. You'll have more leeway with the 650c.

Yeah, tires may be an issue. I've got a 24" front wheel so I know a little bit about that. I just carry a spare innertube for each tire and a spare 24" tire on multi-day or non-SAGged long rides. On a SAGged ride, I don't see why a SAG vehicle wouldn't be willing to carry the spare for you if you asked.

Some people may tolerate a particular trade-off (or two) better than others; I'm 5'2", but I'm so short-waisted even for my height that I cannot deal with the tradeoffs that have to be made to make a 700c bike "fit" me (actually can't be made to fit me). It's not just about height, but about the whole package and your particular body characteristics.

[sundial]

Aesthetically, I would go with the 650's. :)

I would stock up on tires/tubes when you get her built and that way you'll always be prepared for the inevitable. 650 is making a comeback in the mtb world and the trends are usually a trickle down effect from the road bikes so I think in the not too distant future you will see more options for your wheels. :cool:

[Triskeliongirl]

I certainly agree that choices in geometry affect handling and thus the geometry considerations when considering 700c vs. 650b should also be looked at from a handling perspective.

However, I've gotten the impression from this thread that if you want a 700c wheel on a small bike then you are going to have to live with either a) a horribly sluggish slow steering bike with the wheel way out in front of you b) a horribly twitchy bike or c) some weird compromise in your seat vs. pedals position.

As a 5' tall rider with two 700c road bikes (one an XS Giant and one a 47cm Wilier) I disagree.

No, that is not what I said. But, to have it handle normally, you will have either toe clip overlap, or a longer reach. You may have one of these options, but find its not a problem for you.



SUSAN, ONE MORE CONSIDERATION: Are you planning to have this built w s/s couplers (which I highly recommend). I thought you might since it is replacing your friday for travel. If that is the case, 650C/26" wheels fit more easily into the packing case than 700c. The terry tullus is a good 28mm 650c tire, and the schwalbe stevlio (recently replaced by ultremo) is a great 23mm 650c tire. Any wider, you'll want to consider 26".

[madscot13]

how easy/ difficult is it to switch between 26" and 650c wheels? do any certain types of brakes facilitate this?

In terms of proportions and aesthetics I like how 650c wheels look in proportion to 700 and small frames. I am always dreaming of my next bike. It seemed logical to get a 26" frame in the future for stand over issues. I know there is more to fit than that but on my current bike I don't have toe overlap and any reach issues are taken care of- anything more than that gets too complicated for me. I thought that with 26" tires with different wheelsets I could go as racy as I want or ride on gravel paths with wider tires, which 26" tires are more known for. yes the available tubes for 26" are limited (and 650c even more so) and I would probably get a custom wheelset for fast days, but there are a lot of options. You just have to be ready to sort of steer away from what the rest of the pack is doing.

schwalbe tires runs pretty narrow. check out there website and search ETRO at 559:http://www.schwalbetires.com/product_search?op0=OR&filter0[]=559-20

congrats on the sweetpea

ps 650 and 26" (well some) tubes are smaller than 700, so you can bring two

[Triskeliongirl]

Susan, please let us know what you decide! We can't wait to see the bike. How exciting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Susan Otcenas]

SUSAN, ONE MORE CONSIDERATION: Are you planning to have this built w s/s couplers (which I highly recommend). I thought you might since it is replacing your friday for travel.

That's the plan!

[ilima]

how easy/ difficult is it to switch between 26" and 650c wheels? do any certain types of brakes facilitate this?

I think long-reach calipers allow you to do this. And a brilliant suggestion on Triskeliongirl's part.

I saw a posting of a bike built up like this a couple weeks back. I wish I could remember where, though!

[Triskeliongirl]

Actually, running the 650c/26" is Deb W's idea, and how her bike was built. Her bike sounds a lot like the one Susan wants, so perhaps they should chat a bit.

The builder that installed S/S couplers on my touring bike strongly recommended 650c/26" for travel bikes, since the airline case limit is 26". You can fit a 700c wheel, but have to put it in at an angle and/or remove the tires to fit it, a real pain when packing and unpacking. Susan, you will notice that it is a bit more work to pack/un pack an S/S coupled bike than a friday, but well worth it in my opinion for the improved ride quality. Just discuss all these issues with your builder, that's the whole point of going custom, to get really knowledgable input. We can only guess what the differences are between the 2 designs in terms of handling, TCO, etc., but obviously your builder can discuss with you better your specific designs.

I will be honest though, not sure a 26" wheelset is necessary, since the terry tellus 28c tire is fine for most touring applications, but its clearly a good option for versatility which I think you want in a travel bike.

[tulip]

Susan, you've had a Bike Friday, so you already know to carry extra tubes and tire with you. Just do the same for the 650 if that's what you want to go with.

My Luna has 700c wheels. My Bike Friday has 20" (451) wheels. It's no problem with my Bike Friday to order extra tubes and tires. I carry two tubes with me, which ever bike I'm riding. When I ride the Bike Friday, I also carry a spare tire (folding).

As for handling, I can only compare my 700c-wheel bike with my 20"-wheeled bike. I notice very little difference. I've broken spokes on my "big bike" but never on my Friday. That brings up another thing--I tape some extra spokes to my bike--both of them. Just good to have, like a tube and tire. I actually think that I climb better on my Bike Friday, but since I'm not much of a speedster I don't really pay that much attention to it. I don't do criteriums on either, and both are really great to ride.

EDIT: Not for Susan, but for others who are considering travel bikes--I have a high-end, high-performance Bike Friday. It is awesome to ride; very fast and responsive. I ride it as much or more than my "regular" road bike, and it's wonderful for traveling both in a plane and to stick in the way back of my little car when I go on business trips and to visit my family. There's no compromise in ride quality with my Bike Friday. Just a little side thought in case someone is wondering.

[madscot13]

Actually, running the 650c/26" is Deb W's idea, and how her bike was built. Her bike sounds a lot like the one Susan wants, so perhaps they should chat a bit.



I will be honest though, not sure a 26" wheelset is necessary, since the terry tellus 28c tire is fine for most touring applications, but its clearly a good option for versatility which I think you want in a travel bike.

how wide can you go with long reach brakes?

[Susan Otcenas]

I decided to go with 650s...

[Biciclista]

we all can't wait to see what your new bike looks like!

[Susan Otcenas]

Me too. :D

What do you think of blood red metallic for a paint scheme?

[divingbiker]

Me too. :D

What do you think of blood red metallic for a paint scheme?

I think it sounds perfect! (That's what I'm getting when I get my custom bike.)

[lunacycles]

Yo Susan,

Good choice on the wheel size. I don't know what fork you are going with, but if you are interested in a carbon option that isn't all aero-like in how it looks (read, massive blades), tell Natalie I have a pile of 650c Reynolds Ouzo Pro's I snatched up from Serotta about a year ago--1" steerer, all carbon. I'm happy to sell her/you one. Maybe she has other options in mind, but in 650c this would be the way to go, as any replacement steel fork would also likely take a 1" steerer. Good price, too.

Have fun!

[NbyNW]

What do you think of blood red metallic for a paint scheme?

Beautiful!

[ilima]

Me too. :D

What do you think of blood red metallic for a paint scheme?

Sounds absolutely lovely!

[divingbiker]

blood red metallic

I prefer to think of it as "ruby slippers red." Not so gory.

[Cataboo]

I prefer to think of it as "ruby slippers red." Not so gory.

Except for the witch who had a house fall on top of her so you could take the ruby slippers from her dead feet?

[divingbiker]

Except for the witch who had a house fall on top of her so you could take the ruby slippers from her dead feet?

Yeah, well, there is that. But I prefer to think of them on Dorothy's feet.

[Susan Otcenas]

http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/jezebel/2008/07/OGRUBYSLIPPERS071708.jpg
Ruby Red Slippers, I like that! The Wizard of Oz is one of my all time favorite movies. And, my sister's name is Dorothy. Hhhhmmm, maybe I'll need a Wizard of Oz nickname for my bike. It's a little bike with little wheels. Maybe I'll call it Munchkin!

[GLC1968]

Ruby Red Slippers, I like that! The Wizard of Oz is one of my all time favorite movies. And, my sister's name is Dorothy. Hhhhmmm, maybe I'll need a Wizard of Oz nickname for my bike. It's a little bike with little wheels. Maybe I'll call it Munchkin!

Or you could name your new ride "Nessarose" after the witch whose slippers they were before Dorothy dropped a house on her. ;)

[Susan Otcenas]

Or you could name your new ride "Nessarose" after the witch whose slippers they were before Dorothy dropped a house on her. ;)


Even better!

[TrekTheKaty]

I've got 700's so that my DH and I can share tubes on the ride--if needed. Seems silly, but my sis and her DH had different tires and it can be stressful on a long ride with multiple flats.

[katluvr]

I am a little late to chime in. Obviously from this thread it is "to each her own"!
I had a 43 cm Trek w/ 650c wheels. I was jus so excited that I could find a road bike to fit me at 4'10". After a few years I wanted more and I really wanted 700c wheels. Call me crazy but I felt having smaller wheels put me at a disadvantage with all those w/ 700.
Also it was hard to find ANYONE that carried a bike small enough to ride and check out. And I wanted carbon. I wanted a "step up" as I had been riding for a while and thought I could move up from my entry level bike.
I ended up w/ a Lemond (yep, my LBC carries Treks and Lemonds only--but I love my bike guy). It is a 45..yep pretty tall for me..I don't have much room when standing. But I got my 700c wheels and believe it or not this bike "fits" me better. (yes WSD)--but the feel when I am on it is great.
So it be the 700c or that I am in better shape or the sleek carbon bike I "feel" at less of a disadvantage. So probably all in my head.
So moral of the "thread"--to each their own. What fits and looks good to you.
I always just carried extra tubes and never really had an issue with needed a replacement "wheel".
I am happy on my new "big girl bike w/ big girl wheels". But not all would be.
Happy pedaling!