Some serious thoughts on "Not Rape"

[SadieKate]

A link to this blog was posted on another forum. As women, parents, aunts, or just loving friends, it's a blog we should all read and share with those at risk.

http://www.racialicious.com/2008/12/21/original-essay-the-not-rape-epidemic/

Made me remember very fondly those boys in my high school that looked out for me (course, it didn't hurt that they were the football stars and twice the size of my harassers).

[crazycanuck]

Sk, very very interesting.

I'm in the process of reading the article & am unsure exactly how to react. I feel like a dork for having such a sheltered life when I was young & being a dork when I was a teen. I never had a boyfriend at high school and was basically ignored by guys except if they wanted to pester me for having peewee herman type hair etc.

Is it wrong to have led a sheltered life? What is it that bothers me about this?

You have me thinking...

[SadieKate]

I think I led a very sheltered life. I was always known as the teacher's pet (or sometimes daughter) and a bookworm, but I think being the 1st girl in my class to wear a bra would give you a clue. Imagine my shock when a 5th grader reached out in passing and grabbed me.

And in junior high, the guy with the adjoining locker stuck his hand in my crotch. And a man in a car followed me home from school a couple times.

And in high school, those harrassers would back me up into dark corners of the hall way, until those football guys took care of them.

In college, the few times I felt at risk, I was in the driver's seat and just started sloooowly backing out -- or had to out run and manuever someone on the highway. No cell phones back then, so get out of my way or else. It was scary. 70+ pounds of big black poodle in the back seat took care of that though.:D

I feel very luck nothing worse happened. I can't imagine what some of today's young girls face.

[crazycanuck]

My niece turns 15 next month..:eek: & the other turned 12 earlier this year. I thought of them at the end of the article. I can't say I fully understand what they'd deal with in thier daily lives but I am aware of how crazy society is these days.

[shootingstar]

comment #1
It requires courage, like the author of that article blog to even write about her personal experience..very chilling.

comment #2
My parents tried to protect us....none of us were allowed to go to friend's sleepovers when we were growing up. It was because of the fear of abuse for their children, etc. We were each told this. That included my brother also.

And I didn't try to give reasons to friends why I couldn't go. I simply mumbled that I wasn't allowed to go. Fortunately I never lost friends over this nor did I ever get any peer pressure for not joining the fun. It was just me, feeling abit left out.

I know, I know..amazing.

comment #3
When my partner's daughter was 15 yrs. old, she was approached by a guy, a stranger in a mall. He gave her his phone number and said she looked good enough to be a model. (Seriously the young woman is not at all your Elle model look-alike. In jest she jokingly blames her father for giving her a lousy nose.) She told her mother (his ex-wife) who was alarmed and consulted her ex (my partner) by phone. Thank goodness, it was 2 divorced parents always were generally parallel on problems of child-rearing and discipline to find solutions.

It was felt the best thing was the mother accompany daughter to meet this guy in the shopping mall. And nothing in the end, came out of that. The guy disappeared from the scene thereafter.

Now, if daughter hadn't even told either of her parents about this creepy dude....

comment #4
When I was working for the courts, there was a highly publicized case where 2 girls were raped, murdered, etc. by a handsome guy and his lovely looking blonde girlfriend. The news media circus went on and on about it nationally. Also alot of discussion on juror stress and ..speculation on the stress on the presiding judge because of the graphic nature of the evidence (video and other stuff..).

We knew working inside the courthouse,..in the judges chambers area that was sealed off to the public, that outside there were large crowds outside waiting to hear yet another statement from the lawyers, etc.

There were attempts to make a movie interpretation of all this. I can't remember what happened in the end...but it was just sickening the amount of bizarre curiosity about the case, the killers, etc.

[crazycanuck]

Shootingstar, you worked in the courts during the Karla Homolka/Paul Bernardo case! I will never ever forget these two & blood will always boil when one remembers what they got up to.

May no young women have to endure what Kristen French & Leslie Mahaffy did :mad: :( Grrrr...

[ZenSojourner]

I was shocked to discover one day that not a single female friend of mine had not at one point or another confessed to me at least one incident of sexual assault or rape.

NOT ONE.

Any woman I know long enough eventually has a story to tell. Whenever I get a fresh batch of friends, I just assume that sooner or later, they'll get around to telling me.

[Crankin]

Well, I have never been assaulted or raped and believe me, I did not lead a sheltered life... I hung out on the Boston Common at age 14 with all sorts of weirdos and hippies and did various other stupid things.
The 15 year son of one of my friend's friends was jumped last week, walking home, in Jamaica Plain (a section of Boston that is fairly residential). He was knifed in 2 places because he refused to buy weed. He said the only thing that saved him is that he is trained in martial arts and threw the guys down, after they had stabbed him.
He said otherwise he would be dead.

[bikerz]

I was shocked to discover one day that not a single female friend of mine had not at one point or another confessed to me at least one incident of sexual assault or rape.

NOT ONE.

Any woman I know long enough eventually has a story to tell. Whenever I get a fresh batch of friends, I just assume that sooner or later, they'll get around to telling me.

ZenSojourner, this has been my experience too.

My only quibble with the essay was calling it "not rape". I understand the literary device, but calling this "not-anything" reduces its impact.

What that essay made so clear was along the entire spectrum of violence by men against women and girls, from sexual assault and molestation to "clear-cut" violent gang rape, the victim is considered if not at fault, then at least in some way complicit: "she smoked pot, her grades weren't good, she was in the wrong part of town, she hung out with older boys, look at the way she dressed, the way she acted, the way she said no when she meant yes" etc. ad nauseum.

No - the real problem is that she was (we are) female in a world that objectifies women, sexualizes little girls, and glorifies male violence and domination.

The only way I can see that this can change is by demanding of the men and boys in our lives that they treat the women and girls in their lives as human beings with agency over their own lives and bodies. And in the meantime, because that kind of change (revolution?) takes time, as the essay's author says, we have to protect and support the women and girls in our lives.

SadieKate, thanks for posting this essay.

[Kalidurga]

No - the real problem is that she was (we are) female in a world that ... sexualizes little girls...

The only way I can see that this can change is by demanding of the men and boys in our lives that they treat the women and girls in their lives as human beings with agency over their own lives and bodies.

I think it also takes educating some of the grown women out there. My 13 yr old niece's mother recently sent my parents and I some photos that they'd had taken in the mall. They were stereotypical glamour shots and I was amazed at how sexy and 'come hither' my niece had been made to look. Her mother apparently loved these photos and didn't see anything inappropriate about them. She thought they were "fun". So I just sent her the link to this essay and asked that she read it and discuss it with my niece. I want my niece to grow up to be a smart, aware woman who knows how to avoid such situations, but I'm afraid her closest female role models are a tad lacking.

[Irulan]

I think the article misses the point of greater social ills that lead to many ( not all) off the situations presented. Where are the parents? Where is the rage at the absence of parents? All I got out of it was "victim, helpless, victim, victim"... which is some cases is totally appropriate, but I think missing the bigger point.

Young girls seeking out attention from older boys/men is typical documented behavior in reaction to father abandonment. No 11 year old girl raised in an emotionally healthy environment is going to need an older boy friend. Many of the situations presented are typical in dysfunctional, latch key, unsupervised environments. Some parents are physically present, but preoccupied, or even support things like attention from older men, enhanced sexuality for young girls etc.

I'd like to see the rage at a culture that makes it OK for parents to have a "me first" attitude, rage at a culture that sexualizes young girls, rage at parental abandonment etc.

I'm not going to go into my backstory, let's just say been there, done that and supporting the concept of being victimized is short sighted.

[SadieKate]

I don't think that article was intended to be all encompassing. I certainly didn't think it conveyed anyone as "victim, helpless, victim, victim." It conveyed very strongly that women and girls need to be aware and think on their feet -- and that society needs to teach men to respect women.

The article struck a chord with me because the writer talks about behavior that our society tends to sweep under the rug. I certainly was not seeking out the attention of older men and boys, yet I was a victim any way. We were crossing paths in a school yard during a school day, for goodness sake - where one wouldn't expect to be assaulted and certainly not at that age. I'm sure that the school authorities would have brushed aside any complaint from me about the 5th grader grabbing my breast. They might have admonished him, but I bet I've have been told "boys will be boys."

If you want the article to be all encompassing and an analysis of society's ills, it would need to be a book - and the writer's intended audience would not read it. I believe the writer wants young girls to think about their own safety and behavior in the middle ground that is so rarely discussed, and that won't happen without a short article about her own emotional turmoil speaking directly to the most at-risk audience. Will she cause one young girl to think twice? If so, it doesn't matter what us soon-to-be 50 years think of the article.

[Duck on Wheels]

...My only quibble with the essay was calling it "not rape". I understand the literary device, but calling this "not-anything" reduces its impact.

What that essay made so clear was along the entire spectrum of violence by men against women and girls, from sexual assault and molestation to "clear-cut" violent gang rape, the victim is considered if not at fault, then at least in some way complicit: "she smoked pot, her grades weren't good, she was in the wrong part of town, she hung out with older boys, look at the way she dressed, the way she acted, the way she said no when she meant yes" etc. ad nauseum

Yeah! And this is not just a wimpy literary device. It's also a legal reality, I think even to this day although the laws have in many places been changed. Back when I was kidnapped and attempted raped, 42 years ago, the guy made it very clear to me what would happen if I reported it: I would have to appear in court in the clothes I'd been wearing (miniskirt, Mexican blouse, sandals, long hippy hair). I would be questioned about all my sexual experiences (at that point I was still a virgin, but even "making out" would be portrayed as a sign of loose morals). And he would get off scot free. He was sure of it because he'd gotten off before. HIS prior experiences (including a rape accusation that had gone to trial!) would NOT be admissible since it was a juvenile case and the records were sealed. I believed him. I managed to "forget" most of the event until 25 years later when I had nightmares and finally decided I needed to let one run its course so I could remember how I'd managed to get loose. That worked. So yes I agree that:


... the real problem is that she was (we are) female in a world that objectifies women, sexualizes little girls, and glorifies male violence and domination.

The only way I can see that this can change is by demanding of the men and boys in our lives that they treat the women and girls in their lives as human beings with agency over their own lives and bodies. And in the meantime, because that kind of change (revolution?) takes time, as the essay's author says, we have to protect and support the women and girls in our lives.

SadieKate, thanks for posting this essay.

[Trek420]

The only way I can see that this can change is by demanding of the men and boys in our lives that they treat the women and girls in their lives as human beings with agency over their own lives and bodies. And in the meantime, because that kind of change (revolution?) takes time, as the essay's author says, we have to protect and support the women and girls in our lives.

I feel we need like-minded supportive men as allies to be the examples of treating women well, to show this day by day and mentor younger men, boys. We need young men and boys to see that you can be a man and not abuse women.

Fact is I feel it's the only way to truly be a man. :cool:

My Dad taught us in many ways, most of all the way he interacted with my Mom (also Duck's mutual parents) that real men don't abuse women and girls (or other men and boys). It's not enough to hear that from us.

Of course the abused of any class or group are going to say "stop doing that to us :mad:!" and we can and will win this fight on our own.

It is more meaningful if men stand with us, be counted and say "this stops here, this stops with me". While the best place for them to do that is at home we also need men of quality to act as mentors to kids who do not have a man at home or have had issues with their Dad in the past.

Sexual abuse often begins at home and is generational. The abuser saw his dad abuse his mom, his dad saw his and so on. That is not to say that everyone abused as a child grow up to repeat it, but not all have the strength to say "it stops here". If young men and boys see abuse at home they may be more likely lash out at a later date in any relationship.

Where is my bumper sticker that says "men of quality support women's equality" :D

[Triskeliongirl]

The only objection I have to the article is that *sometimes it is rape* and when it is we are not always prepared for how to deal with it either.

[Dianyla]

Thank you for posting this, SK.

[andtckrtoo]

I was just watching CBS this morning and they had a segment on about Mike Tyson and the new film out about him. I was reminded of this thread when the commentary said, "Yes, he abused women, but he really was a tragic figure."
It was as if the commentator was saying that it was okay that Tyson abused women because he had such a tragic life.

With those kinds of attitudes being broadcast on a show like CBS News Sunday Morning its no wonder this kind of abuse is so prevalent. It's sickening, really.

[OakLeaf]

Thanks for the post, SK.

Do you think a teenager could appreciate it? It seems more directed at adult women who've already had (at least) three or four of these experiences AND the time and maturity to process them. I have a 16 year old niece...

[Biciclista]

good luck getting across to teenagers. Recently some teenaged idol beat the cr@p out of his girlfriend. and all the teenaged girls, fans, could say was either "I don't believe it" or "she deserved it" SHE DESERVED TO BE BEATEN?? unfortunately "progress" is two steps forward followed by 3 steps back.
We used to call this Date rape, not "NOT RAPE" hello?
and those underaged girls? that's statutory rape. no NOT about it.
yes, a good article.

[shootingstar]

Thanks for the post, SK.

Do you think a teenager could appreciate it? It seems more directed at adult women who've already had (at least) three or four of these experiences AND the time and maturity to process them. I have a 16 year old niece...

While the abuse has been around for centuries...the biggest difference now, are additional electronic tools --Internet, email provides more options by evildoers to access the unsuspecting victims, etc.

The tougher part is explaining or helping others develop radar/alertness how to gauge situations that begin as harmless or borderline strange verging on wierd behaviour that eventually could lead to worse stuff.

A few years ago, I was humming a childhood ditty and suddenly I realized the alternate meaning of the words could be. It was song as a child sung in playgrounds that I grew up in:

Hello, hello sir...
Can you come and play sir?
No sir,
why sir?
...... :eek:

Now I call it the pedaphile song. :( But that time as a child, I never thought to think of the possible double meaning of the song.

[Trek420]

I was just watching CBS this morning and they had a segment on about Mike Tyson and the new film out about him. I was reminded of this thread when the commentary said, "Yes, he abused women, but he really was a tragic figure."
It was as if the commentator was saying that it was okay that Tyson abused women because he had such a tragic life.

There are a lot of people who have tragic lives, even more so than Tyson's and overcome, recover and have functioning relationships and are good parents so on. I'm sure there are examples in pro sports. Media should feature them and the people who helped them and spend less time excusing an abuser. :mad: Media should spend some time on those who overcome tremendous odds to become good parents.

Since this is a cycling discussion board maybe they could have a spot on folks who "rode their bike and found solace from a tragic childhood".

"I had an unhappy childhood" is never an excuse for violence. If someone is attacking me in any way I really don't want to know or care about your unhappy childhood :rolleyes: I just want the violence to stop.

[SadieKate]

Thanks for the post, SK.

Do you think a teenager could appreciate it? It seems more directed at adult women who've already had (at least) three or four of these experiences AND the time and maturity to process them. I have a 16 year old niece...I think it would have made a difference to the teen-aged-me. My parents talked to me about what not to do but never about what to do. As in "don't open the door to anyone if you're home alone" but never about going into immediate self-defense mode, screaming and fighting, and then reporting to the authorities. The incident in high school? It was during the school day at the end of the next building over from my father's classroom. My parents hadn't discussed possible assault in broad daylight at school. I doubted my own actions (did I invite them?) and I certainly wasn't prepared to deal with it.

I was also a good enough reader in 5th grade that, with parental discussion, would have benefited from that article. Other than the "don't open the door" discussion, there was no discussion at all of possible risks until the summer before my sophomore year in college. :rolleyes: Honest to goodness, they could have just handed me that article anytime after puberty hit and it would have made a difference to how I handled the incidents.

[maillotpois]

Good article.

I don't think it would sink in at all to my daughter yet, but it is certainly a good reminder to all who parent or are close to teenagers/pre-teens that we need to remain very (overly) involved in their lives and aware of what is going on.

[Tuckervill]

My parents hadn't discussed possible assault in broad daylight at school.

Do you really think they could have anticipated that? From a 10 year old?

I don't remember now if your parents were ever told what happened...but I feel for them, either way. If they know I am sure they were heartsick when they found out, and if they don't, I'm sure they would be.

It's possible one of my sons was molested (I can't get him to talk about "it" whatever "it" is), and the way and place it might have happened could not have been anticipated by me or anyone. I didn't even get enough information to suspect it until 7 or 8 years after the fact. I'm heartsick about it every time I think of it, and I would have done something had I known, but I didn't. I'm sure your parents would be, too.

I'm heartsick it happened to you.

Karen

[SadieKate]

Do you really think they could have anticipated that? From a 10 year old?

I don't remember now if your parents were ever told what happened...but I feel for them, either way. If they know I am sure they were heartsick when they found out, and if they don't, I'm sure they would be.

It's possible one of my sons was molested (I can't get him to talk about "it" whatever "it" is), and the way and place it might have happened could not have been anticipated by me or anyone. I didn't even get enough information to suspect it until 7 or 8 years after the fact. I'm heartsick about it every time I think of it, and I would have done something had I known, but I didn't. I'm sure your parents would be, too.

I'm heartsick it happened to you.

KarenKaren, my family comes from a long line of teachers (of all ages). How could they not know that boys grope girls in school? It didn't really traumatize me so don't be heartsick, but I could certainly have been better equipped to deal with the boy right then and there. It was college before I found the confidence to verbally and physically defend myself (much to the embarrassment of the guy who kept swatting my behind with the dorm cafeteria tray).

Does your son have someone he would talk about this with? Sometimes, a parent is not the first person you want to talk with. I know the parent wants it to be that way, but sometimes it needs to be someone else.

[Tuckervill]

They just wouldn't have anticipated it happening to you, is all. No parent wants to think that those things happen to their own children.

My son is 25, and I've offered to get him professional counseling many times over the past 10 years or so. He has friends, has had girlfriends. I've done all I can do. I won't nag him, short of reiterating when appropriate that I'm here to help him to seek help if he ever wants it.

My parents couldn't have anticipated that one of my older brother's friends would expose his genitals to me when I was 8. I knew it was wrong already. We can't warn our children about every possibility--all we can do is hope to pass on the principles we hope will protect them, and lead them to do the right thing.

Karen

[bikerz]

I've been thinking about that essay, and this thread, and and other similar things I've read, all day.

The taunting and harassment of girls by boys is both tacitly and explicitly accepted. I was teased, pushed, pinched and generally hassled by boys in elementary school -- it was clear to me that complaining to the teacher would just lead to worse teasing, so after a few incidents I told my dad and he said "that's just what boys do when they like you." Uh huh. This made absolutely no sense to me, but if it was true, it was something I wanted nothing to do with, so I didn't complain anymore and just tried to avoid the boys, and therefore the trouble.

I'm sure I'm not the only girl who got that message from teachers and parents that boys were rough and mean and there was no point in expecting them to behave respectfully to girls. But the boys got an important lesson too: they didn't need to control their behavior - they could harass girls with impunity. (This whole "boys will be boys" excuse gets converted later into the idea that men can't be expected to control themselves sexually, and is at the root of the enormously offensive and false idea that the way a women dresses or acts provokes assault or rape.)

There are many kind and respectful men in my life, and I'm thankful for that, but reading the news, hearing about the experiences of the author of the essay, or of friends of mine, and my own experience as victim of a violent assault, I feel like these men I know are the minority. The world is full of violent and abusive men. How will it ever change?

Well, here's one way: my parents could have told me "Little BikerZ, it's outrageous that you were treated that way, and we're going to talk to the principal and teacher right this minute." And the principal could have made sure those boys knew that their behavior was unacceptable. And their parents would have sat them down and talked to them, and maybe those boys would see that the girls in their class were human beings, just like them, and worthy of the respect and dignity due every human being. And they would have realized that they themselves were damaged when they treated other human beings so badly.

And the next time a boy mistreated a girl (or another boy*, for that matter), the other kids would stop it, instead of encouraging him. And those once-abusive boys might have grown up to be the kind of men I'm lucky to have in my life. And all the girls could have grown up to feel fully valued as human beings, and safe from male violence. It seems like a crazy fantasy, actually, but for the sake of my little niece and nephew, and all the little kids in my life, I hope it is possible.

Because it's not the schoolyard teasing and taunts that have had the long-lasting impact in my life (and the lives of my friends) -- it's the actions of the men those bullying and abusive boys grew up to be.


Wow, I'm on a tear with these long posts - that essay got me really riled up!

* I think it is not a coincidence that some of the best men I know were bullied and teased in school themselves.

[Trek420]

I'm not an alarmist, more a bit of a pragmatic realist. Right now there are fewer resources to prosecute, control, educate, reform. I'm not suggesting we form us up a posse and hunt the perps down and hang 'em high either (though the idea has it's attractions).

But in some ways this is up to each one of us:

www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/04/24/18591105.php

[crazycanuck]

Mimi-i'm sure that not all teens would be in support of the comments made about the teenage idol. Surely, there must be some sensible teens out there that think rationally.

Surely..?

Surely, some parents may have instilled values into thier kids. We just don't hear about them becuase it doesn't make $$ for the networks.

Someone restore my belief that today's teens have some sense.

[andtckrtoo]

I have a 16 yo daughter who thinks that celebrity who beat up his girlfriend deserves to be strung up my his toe nails and maimed. (Or at least put away for a long time). But I think a lot of the girls and boys right now are basing their ideas on the music of the times. I know each older generation says this of the younger, but seriously - have you listened to some of the rap music out there? It's horrid! Not all of it, of course, but enough is that it's not that surprising to me that girls think it's okay, too.

[OakLeaf]

I really object to the idea that today's music is any worse than that of any other generation - or that art feeds violence more than violence informs art.

It's true that each generation successively pushes the envelope of what words are acceptable, not just in song lyrics but in conversation.

But as far as the ideas, how about, just for starters, Tom Jones' "She's a Lady"? The Rolling Stones' "Under My Thumb"?

Blaming music for sexual violence is no better than blaming the economy, blaming substance abuse, blaming the availability of weapons, or blaming the victim. The perp ALWAYS has a choice.

[PamNY]

Mimi-i'm sure that not all teens would be in support of the comments made about the teenage idol. Surely, there must be some sensible teens out there that think rationally.

Surely..?

Surely, some parents may have instilled values into thier kids. We just don't hear about them becuase it doesn't make $$ for the networks.

Someone restore my belief that today's teens have some sense.

Here's one poll:
http://bigcountryhomepage.com/content/fulltext/?cid=127471

Having grown up in the 1960s, I'm skeptical about anything that "all the kids" are supposed to think.

Pam

[andtckrtoo]

I really object to the idea that today's music is any worse than that of any other generation - or that art feeds violence more than violence informs art.

It's true that each generation successively pushes the envelope of what words are acceptable, not just in song lyrics but in conversation.

But as far as the ideas, how about, just for starters, Tom Jones' "She's a Lady"? The Rolling Stones' "Under My Thumb"?

Blaming music for sexual violence is no better than blaming the economy, blaming substance abuse, blaming the availability of weapons, or blaming the victim. The perp ALWAYS has a choice.

I see your point. I was thinking of some of the heinous rap music I've heard (my step son was into some really brutal rap). But, when I think back to some of the punk, or hard rock out there - it's no different - and the same segment of society listen to it. My apologies. I stand corrected.