Dealing with unemployment - anyone else?

[IvonaDestroi]

So I graduated with an associates degree a month ago, in fashion design. Whilst in school, I, as is typical, amassed a massive amount of student loan debt. I was getting unemployment and barely scraped by with the loan disbursments and unemployment combined. Not all my bills got paid, esspecially towards the end. Fashion school, unlike most other fields, is extremely time and labor intensive and I was already at 80 hours a week with school, so part time work was really out of the question.

I was excited when I graduated. Finnally, I could work HUMAN hours again! At first I thought I thought I'd find something relavent to my field, or at least an internship and then I could do retail or something in the meantime.

Within the first week of job hunting, it was apparent that this was not going to happen. I called EVERYWHERE I could think of to see if someone might be hiring, posted resumes online, checked craigslist everyday, and within my field not even a single flicker of hope.

Ok, then, I thought, well I'll just have to do something else in the meantime. It's been a month. I've applied at 20 places, and out of those I got 1 interview. Retail jobs, fabric stores, cafes, restauraunts, bike shops, you name it, I've looked it up and called every single related bussiness I could think of to check if they were hiring. The reason I've only applied at 20 places is because EVERYWHERE I called was NOT hiring. In fact, at least 5 of the places I applied at were not hiring at the moment.

So here I am. My 2 very high interest credit card bills have gone unpaid for 3 months. My unemployment ran out, and can not be extended. My bank account is almost empty. On the first I am putting in a 30 days notice on the room I'm renting, because I don't have enough rent money for after next month. In fact, my bank account barely has next months rent and this months electric bill and that is it, down to 0. My phone gets shut off tomarrow. I'm considering not paying the electric so I can have a phone for possible job interviews, for which hopes are clearly dwindling. I got food stamps on Friday. I have 2 cats that I have absolutely no idea what to do with. They will NOT go to a shelter. Over my dead body...

I have an interview on Monday that I will probably not get, because I already know I don't match what they are looking for. (It's peets coffee but its a very bussiness oriented one, very button up location, and I have pink and blue bihawks and tattoos.) I'm going anyway, of course, and putting my best foot forward. Just not counting on it is all.

With my new degree, I'm over qualified for the types of jobs I've had before. Those employers seem to be preffering younger kids, still in college or high school, whom they can manipulate more easily for less pay. I'm willing to take the same pay, but at 25 and educated, and I'm a little harder to treat like crap, and they seem to know that. They're not interested in me at all.

On the other hand, the few and far in between jobs that are in my field, are definately not looking for someone who's wet behind the ears at the moment, seeing as how they have dozens of applicants, most of whom are more qualified then me.

So, in a month, I am homeless. I'm going to try to couch surf for a couple of months and find ANY job hopefully in the mean time and save up some money and go to Europe. I've done this before in both the states and canada, and I know that a one way ticket is all I need. The kitties are my main worry through it all.

It's extrememly stressful and depressing, the bills are just piled up and now I won't even have a place to stay. I'm trying to stay positive but hope is just dwindling...

Sigh. Anyone else in this boat? How have you been dealing with it? Any advice?

[Grog]

Hi Ivona.

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, although I have no advice to offer. I'll be on the job market in the fall and I'm not looking forward to it. :(


So, in a month, I am homeless. I'm going to try to couch surf for a couple of months and find ANY job hopefully in the mean time and save up some money and go to Europe. I've done this before in both the states and canada, and I know that a one way ticket is all I need. The kitties are my main worry through it all.

I just wanted to suggest to you that entering Europe might be a bit more difficult than entering Canada on a one-way ticket. Especially now. [It is, by the way, pretty tough to enter the United States (as a non-citizen) on a one-way ticket if you can't prove that you've got loads of $ and good reasons to go back home. Even in good times.] If you don't have substantial money, a home address in your country of residence, and the looks of someone going on a short holiday (or a business trip), and they sniff that you might come to work (without a permit) customs officer could very well turn you around.

I don't mean to scare you, but it's a move you might want to consider carefully. Perhaps others have different experience and will share. I guess it also depends on the country you try to enter, and the timing.

I hope both you and your kitty find a good home.

[VeloVT]

I can imagine how frustrating this is.

I hesitate to ask this question, because I'm sure there are a whole lot of reasons it could seem annoying or loaded or what have you, but is there any possibility you could move in with parents/other family for a short time while you look for work? It wouldn't take care of your debt, but it would be a temporary home and would hopefully allow you to search without piling up more debt...

re jobs... would it be worth trying to network a bit? talk to friends with jobs, professors who might have leads? my bf is an architecture professor and he has been getting loads of emails lately from former students who have been getting laid off in this economy, looking for advice...

best of luck to you...

[Softie]

I have managed to avoid your situation, but I've spent most of my adult (18-28 with only 2 years off college) life in school, and my bf just went through the long struggle of looking for work (in CA), so I completely understand.

On a job application note, I actually know someone who left her Masters degree off her resume for retail/entry positions (omit talking about the fact you were in school), which she was looking for to make ends meet. Basically, she felt it was a big sign saying she's leaving ASAP, even though it was the only work she was able to get while building up her private practice. You might want to consider that option.

Also look into friends or family that might take your cat in for a few months. Relocating to another area might help, especially if it's one with more jobs available. Ask everyone you know for job options, and even consider looking for free lance work, hemming clothes, yard work, house cleaning, child care, anything you can do even for a little money. You might also want to see if anyone you know is willing to let you live with them in exchange for you caring for their home and/or child. Find all the charity sources you can in your area and actually use them (such a food bank). You may be able to get student loan repayment deferred, if you haven't looked into that yet. Your former school may also be able to help with options. Universities tend to hire people to do cleaning of residences when all the students move out for the summer and also tend to rent out rooms to the public over summer when students aren't using them (pretty cheap usually). Search over seas / live in nanny positions if you have any experience with children (even a sibling). Also, be very blunt and talk to everyone you know, family, friends, profs, and let them know how badly you need work, and ask for ideas.

Good luck

Also try to get a line of credit with the bank to pay off your credit card bills, it would be at a lower interest rate, but could also be hard to get while you're not working.

[IvonaDestroi]

I just wanted to suggest to you that entering Europe might be a bit more difficult than entering Canada on a one-way ticket.

.


Luckily, I was born in Poland and have family there, who I will at least be visiting. After that my plan is London, where my cousin lives. I'm hoping I kept my Polish citizenship when I was naturalized (I was 3, naturalized as a refugee), because if that's the case then I have membership in the EU.

I have a friend that did this quite regularly to England and was deported a few times back to the U.S. (free trip home?) and now he's gone back there and gotten married and has a job.

Hopefully all will work out... I wouldn't even be so worried about all this except for the cat thing...

[IvonaDestroi]

I can imagine how frustrating this is.

I hesitate to ask this question, because I'm sure there are a whole lot of reasons it could seem annoying or loaded or what have you, but is there any possibility you could move in with parents/other family for a short time while you look for work? It wouldn't take care of your debt, but it would be a temporary home and would hopefully allow you to search without piling up more debt...

re jobs... would it be worth trying to network a bit? talk to friends with jobs, professors who might have leads? my bf is an architecture professor and he has been getting loads of emails lately from former students who have been getting laid off in this economy, looking for advice...

best of luck to you...


Yes, I've considered the (sigh) parents thing, but honestly my mom lives in a tiny out of the way town and if I cant find work here in the bay area, where pink hair and tattoos are normal, the chances of finding something in a tight knit little community like hers is rather unlikely. Also, she has been out of work for quite a while herself and just now found something after 6 months. Financially I don't think it'd be fair to give her that additonal burden right now.

[Trek420]

What they all said. :o

You're going to need electricity and a phone unless you have an old rotary or phone that does not plug into AC adapter.

Can you get a roommate so you stay in your pad, share expenses?

Also I don't wish to critique your hairstyle, for your major and career it's perfect. As you interview rsearching the company and their corporate culture is key. I'd stop short of stalking outside in the parking lot :D but get an idea of the corporate culture.

Some companies are accepting/encouraging a creative style. Just off the top of my head in SF the corporate headquarters of the GAP, Northface is here, Nomadictraders, think bike gear SOMA, Cliff bars ... lots of clothing companies and bike stuff.

But when you go to an interview and see employees creatively wildly dressed they HAVE the job. You are applying. ;) :cool:

Can you go to a beautician school and get a deal on a do, just ask them "can you make this a tiny teeny bit more business like?"

Peets though, I think they'd be cool with it. Go for it! Good luck.

Does your school have a job board? Back in the day when I went to CCA they did. Check their opportunities.

Sell your own work like here www.etsy.com/

[shootingstar]

I'm hoping I kept my Polish citizenship when I was naturalized (I was 3, naturalized as a refugee), because if that's the case then I have membership in the EU.

I have a friend that did this quite regularly to England and was deported a few times back to the U.S. (free trip home?) and now he's gone back there and gotten married and has a job.

Looks like the Europe option is next stage? Hopefully after getting a job in U.S. to pay off some of your credit card debt 'cause it'll just repile up faster when you start off in Europe with the euro currency that's stronger. Family and friends only tolerate free visits for ...not long.

How far will you go....landscaping, farm work? I knew women who did the traffic control work on construction sites... These are areas that will accept resourceful people who will work hard temporarily for a few months.

And don't look to get yourself deported...like that friend of yours. It'll be probably recorded somewhere permanently with a federal govn't dept.

Yes, of course employers do look for "fit". As you know, you can use any public library to check your email account, jobs. If you apply for any office job, do not eliminate your degree at all. General trend is that many employers seem to accept the notion that even lower office jobs can be filled just fine by university/college grads. Try to view the reality that finishing a college/university degree means that you are capable of reaching a goal in a structured way.

There's several of us in TE forum looking around for work...including myself. Life can pull some unexpected punches... at any time.

[jessica47201]

Well I don't really have any advice, just something that happened. I didn't lose my job, but my husband did. We actually met there. He had worked there for 10 years and then they canned him!!! So I was left there all alone to fend for myself, I felt like I was working for the enemy. We are pretty much blue collar workers. We were working in a Warehouse for a large home improvement chain. It was really good money for us, but then he was fired! He was making $20.15 an hour because of his loyalty, but that is also probably what got him fired. So while he was on the job search, collecting unemployment, I was getting my hours cut and we were watching our saving account fade away. So in return, I started looking for a new job. I found one, took the job, but it has its price. Since I'm in the National Guard, I found a job with the military, but now I'm away from home 4-5 days at a time, which sucks because we miss each other but then on the other hand, I'm making more money than I was and we are paying our bills. But he is still on the job search and his unemployment is about to run out.

I know this is going to sound WAY bad, but if you are looking for just a job to get the money flowing again and not a career, maybe you should dumb yourself down some in your resume'. If your resume' is scary people away because you are over qualified, maybe you should leave some of it out. I wish I could put it another way but "dumbing" is the only way I can think of. I hope everything works out for you!!

[Trek420]

Jessica & Jessica DH, I'm very sorry to hear that. :(

Ivona and all, not an HR expert and no training in that as such. I would recommend creating and A and B resume.

A is for the dream job, or the job that in time once they realize they can't do without you could become the dream job. That's the one with the degree, work experience, projects you've managed, all of your awards and such.

B resume is "I just want a job, don't want to intimidate you with my brilliance, skill, experience and education".

Don't lie, both are accurate but one's just a little toned down.

Frankly, Ivona as you can see families with decades of experience and probably multiple degrees are having problems. I remember during the last recession listening to Duck on Wheels and my mutual brother counseling our mutual niece. She'd just completed her undergraduate work at Cal with a bachelors. He advised "now is not a good time to be in the work force, stay in school and when the economy recovers you'll be prepared."

She went back to school, has her Law degree from Stanford. Her partner's an electrician and even his work's a little slowed but she's in good shape.

I know you're tired of being a "starving student". Can you stay in, go for a Bachelors?

[Pedal Wench]

I hate to say this, but if you owe a bunch of people money, is it reallly wise and responsible to spend money for a ticket to Europe rather than paying back some of the people you owe?

[IvonaDestroi]

Jessica & Jessica DH, I'm very sorry to hear that. :(

Ivona and all, not an HR expert and no training in that as such. I would recommend creating and A and B resume.

A is for the dream job, or the job that in time once they realize they can't do without you could become the dream job. That's the one with the degree, work experience, projects you've managed, all of your awards and such.

B resume is "I just want a job, don't want to intimidate you with my brilliance, skill, experience and education".

Don't lie, both are accurate but one's just a little toned down.

Frankly as you can see families with decades of experience and probably multiple degrees are having problems. I remember during the last recession listening to Duck on Wheels and my mutual brother counseling our mutual niece. She'd just completed her undergraduate work at Cal with a bachelors. He advised "now is not a good time to be in the work force, stay in school and when the economy recovers you'll be prepared."

She went back to school, has her Law degree from Stanford.

I know you're tired of being a "starving student". Can you stay in, go for a Bachelors?


I actually have an A, B, C, and D resume... a very fancy one on irradecsent paper with a fancy logo/letterhead and extensive listing of fashion skills (available in 2 colors), a toned down version of that on normal resume paper , a general retail resume, regular paper, with just the basics, and an in-between. :rolleyes:


no dice.

In terms of going back, it's just waaaay too expensive... I would totally do that if I could afford it though.

It's really interesting to see how many people I know are dealing with this and how they are handling it. I'm one of 3 people that I know that's borderline homeless right now, and quite a few that have been fired recently...

[madscot13]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but you can go into forebearance due to economic hardship. It is not the best idea but by using the money you would use to pay off loans towards staying afloat in other areas it will be better for your credit than having overdue credit card bills or being evicted.

[Tuckervill]

+1 Pedal Wench. How can you afford to go to Europe and pay your landlord and the electric company?

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Ditch the pink hair. Dress conservatively. Smile. Shake hands. Be friendly. Hide the tattoos. Sure, you want a job in the fashion industry, but there aren't any. There ARE jobs available (there always, always are), but only for the best candidates, and maybe not in the industry you want to be in.

I've been through 3 recessions in my lifetime, two of which I was old enough to be employed. As I've told my 3 children in their mid-20s, now is NOT the time to give up a paying job unless you have another one waiting, and now is NOT the time to be picky about what work you do, and now is not the time to be snooty about your self expression.

If you go back and ask a place why they turned you down and find they don't like pink hair, or thought you weren't serious or whatever, take it to heart and make the change.

You're broke and owe money. Fashion and attitude are luxuries you cannot afford. Check them at the door. Ditch the shiny resume, too.

Karen

[Grog]

Temping agencies?

[shootingstar]

I forgot...can you be a bike courier? :D

Actually I'm not kiddin. A good friend of mine was a bike courier in Toronto for 9 months after finishing university.

to make a super long story short...she is now transportation policy analyst for govn't.

At another firm, the receptionist's son was a bike courier in Vancouver for 7 yrs. before he helped run a shelter for the homeless..

[IvonaDestroi]

+1 Pedal Wench. How can you afford to go to Europe and pay your landlord and the electric company?

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Ditch the pink hair. Dress conservatively. Smile. Shake hands. Be friendly. Hide the tattoos. Sure, you want a job in the fashion industry, but there aren't any. There ARE jobs available (there always, always are), but only for the best candidates, and maybe not in the industry you want to be in.

I've been through 3 recessions in my lifetime, two of which I was old enough to be employed. As I've told my 3 children in their mid-20s, now is NOT the time to give up a paying job unless you have another one waiting, and now is NOT the time to be picky about what work you do, and now is not the time to be snooty about your self expression.

If you go back and ask a place why they turned you down and find they don't like pink hair, or thought you weren't serious or whatever, take it to heart and make the change.

You're broke and owe money. Fashion and attitude are luxuries you cannot afford. Check them at the door. Ditch the shiny resume, too.

Karen


Ummm... wow. Well Actually Europe would be paid by the deposit I get back from moving out, which is just enough for a ticket. hence the 30 day notice... I've lived in cars and squatted before, I actually don't mind doing it when travelling because it's -very- worth the experience.

I'm really not being picky, at all. Most places I've applied, the hair isn't a big deal, that's kind of a typical type of thing you see out here. Just that one peets might have issues because its right in the financial district, but as the other interviewer said, they don't have any actual rules about it. Well, in any case, the other Peets didn't hire me so I don't see why they would.

This isn't some little fashion game for me either, I've been in the punk scene for 10 years. It's my LIFE, my personality, and who I am. If an employer can't accept that then they are not accepting ME as a person, and that would be a serious issue. I'm not changing myself because others want to be discriminatory. It's not snootiness. I'm a friendly, organized, and well adjusted person. What if someone demanded you drastically change appearance in order to work somewhere, what if they asked YOU to dye YOUR hair pink? - would you do it??? :eek:

Well, you get that same feeling from this side of the tracks...

One of the reasons I moved here was specifically because there was not only an amazing music scene, but also because people are a little less hung up on appearances out here. I'm not saying it's a huge difference then most other places, but it's definately noticable.

And one more thing, the shiny resume was not my idea... I had to make it like that for a portfolio class in school, where they wanted them to be over-the-top. Don't ask me why. But it actually looks really nice, it's not like glitter or anything, just a light luminescence when held up to the light.

[IvonaDestroi]

I forgot...can you be a bike courier? :D

Actually I'm not kiddin. A good friend of mine was a bike courier in Toronto for 9 months after finishing university.

to make a super long story short...she is now transportation policy analyst for govn't.

At another firm, the receptionist's son was a bike courier in Vancouver for 7 yrs. before he helped run a shelter for the homeless..

You know what, I can't believe I havn't thought of that! Hmmm....

[alpinerabbit]

Europe would be paid by the deposit I get back from moving out, which is just enough for a ticket. And how do you get home if it doesn't work out?


This isn't some little fashion game for me either, I've been in the punk scene for 10 years. It's my LIFE, my personality, and who I am. If an employer can't accept that then they are not accepting ME as a person, and that would be a serious issue. I'm not changing myself because others want to be discriminatory. It's not snootiness. I'm a friendly, organized, and well adjusted person. I'm a pagan druid and I don't run around at work in my regalia. I'd love to get green extensions (that has nothing to do with my spiritual views) but I have opted not to do it, nor do I walk around in "just anything" when seeing customers, although I prefer jeans&sneakers.

You want a career, you are on the asking (or almost begging) side, you have to swim with the current, not against it. I know it borders on prostitution - you are selling your life for money.

The punk style just doesn't cut it unless you apply to a punk fashion store. You could pass if you land an interview as a fashion designer.



I forgot...can you be a bike courier? :D
Actually I'm not kiddin. You know what, I can't believe I havn't thought of that! Hmmm....But if you decide to do it - make sure you have medical insurance. It's a dangerous job.
You could do it and at the same time ask for a job at every door you call.

p.s. no offense meant - but I've seen you misspell words. Check your portfolios, letters and cvs for spelling.

As a final pc. of advice, a cousin studied fashion and she went for a secure, well paying job soon after graduating. The downside of that is that it was not in fashion, and it is unlikely she will ever get a foot back in the door to a job in fashion.

So you have to decide if you rough it or go for security now. I see your debt is an added burden.

p.p.s. have you tried Monster?

[Tuckervill]

This isn't some little fashion game for me either, I've been in the punk scene for 10 years. It's my LIFE, my personality, and who I am. If an employer can't accept that then they are not accepting ME as a person, and that would be a serious issue. I'm not changing myself because others want to be discriminatory. It's not snootiness. I'm a friendly, organized, and well adjusted person. What if someone demanded you drastically change appearance in order to work somewhere, what if they asked YOU to dye YOUR hair pink? - would you do it???

If I were hungry enough, and about to lose my home AND my cat, that would be a big FAT YES.

It's just hair, you know. It will grow back.

One of my very best friends in the whole world is about 75% covered from head to toe in tattoos. She was punk before you were even born. But now, she's a stay at home mom of three in a big fine house behind a gate, married to a company man and spends her time playing tennis and throwing parties for her charities. She still rocks the punk hair every once in a while, but I can guarantee you she never once thought she would be where she is now. You'd like her a lot. I'm sure she'd tell you that you're putting too much mojo on the pink hair. It is amazing what you would do without when you're about to starve.

Karen

[andtckrtoo]

If I were hungry enough, and about to lose my home AND my cat, that would be a big FAT YES.

It's just hair, you know. It will grow back.

One of my very best friends in the whole world is about 75% covered from head to toe in tattoos. She was punk before you were even born. But now, she's a stay at home mom of three in a big fine house behind a gate, married to a company man and spends her time playing tennis and throwing parties for her charities. She still rocks the punk hair every once in a while, but I can guarantee you she never once thought she would be where she is now. You'd like her a lot. I'm sure she'd tell you that you're putting too much mojo on the pink hair. It is amazing what you would do without when you're about to starve.

Karen

I agree with Karen. I live in the Bay Area, too, and while this area seems very accepting of people regardless of what, that does not always apply when you are talking about offering jobs. There may be no "rules" against it, but many of the employers I know would take one look and decide that you are too different and would not fit in, even though you just might. By toning down the hair and dressing more conservatively you may be able to convince people you would fit in, then gradually add yourself back into the mix. It's an employers market right now.

I also think you should try the temp agencies. If you can type, file, etc - you can earn some money while trying to find a job. I actually found a permanent position by working in a temp agency - and the temp job and the permanent job were in two different fields. I just had to get in the door and show them I was willing to work.

Once you have some stability, start pushing for a job in the industry you want. People hire people who have jobs. It's a sad and frustrating fact when you don't have one.

[PamNY]

What if someone demanded you drastically change appearance in order to work somewhere, what if they asked YOU to dye YOUR hair pink? - would you do it???

Dye my hair pink to keep my dog? You bet.

Is self-employment an option? Pet sitting, dog walking and house cleaning all pay pretty well once you get a client base. For pet sitting, you might partner with a vet tech to offer services like insulin injections for diabetic cats. All of the above jobs could be combined with something like a bike courier job.

Do they have walking tours in San Francisco? A punk tour guide might have a certain appeal. You'd have to educate yourself on history, etc., but that is doable.

Good luck. I don't envy young people graduating in this economy. On the bright side, you will be able to drive your grandchildren bonkers with the stories about how you suffered.

Pam

[beccaB]

A few thoughts here...

I have known "punk" people, kids mostly, and they have been nicer and more respectful of others than the "normal " kids I work with. I am a school bus driver.

I have a bachelor of music degree, performance unfortunately, otherwise I might actually be working in my field .

I chose the job I have because it was a good one to get to know the school community where my kids attend school and the hours are good for my family's needs. I only earn around $20,000 a year, but it is decent pay for the hours I work, and my husband still has his job.

You should look into that. I don't know of one single school district that isn't desperate for subs. Driving a vehicle that big is a challenge(the learning part) Did not come naturally to me, but I had a good driving record and my instructor was willing to spend time with me.

I don't know if any of this will help. I'm 47, with teenagers and a husband, so obviously at a different stage in life.

Good luck, hope something works out for you.

[Trek420]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but you can go into forebearance due to economic hardship. It is not the best idea but by using the money you would use to pay off loans towards staying afloat in other areas it will be better for your credit than having overdue credit card bills or being evicted.

Do everything you can to stay current on bills, stay in your home etc. Do it for the cat :cool: do it for you ;)

Employers do a credit search these days you know. :cool:

As for the shiny spangly fashion-forward resume, what were your teachers thinking? :eek:

Frame it, don't use it. Your resume gets scanned. Stuff like that does not show up or worse.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Totally regardless of your principles, it's just a cold hard fact that pink and blue mohawks, tattoos, punk-ish clothes, body piercings, etc....are going to drastically cut your success in job interviews for 'regular type' jobs. Like it or lump it, that's just how it is. You must make your own choices, of course.
I wish you luck, I feel for you.

It may not be quite so easy to get into Europe with a one way ticket and no job or money.

My younger daughter (27) just got her 4 year Masters Degree in metal smithing and jewelry design. She is HUGELY talented, hard working, artistic, and creative. But there just is no work out there in creative art/design for young people in this recession.
But she's a go getter, and not only does she work for us doing sometimes boring technical illustration (which she did for years all through school to pay her way), but when things got more scary after graduation, she applied for and got a bank teller job to make ends meet. She presented a professional image for her interview, underwent a three week training course, and now has a steady job there at the bank that she can actually walk to from her apt. It's a job, it pays bills, and she's really glad to have it right now. She has a corner of her apt set up as a mini jewelry workshop area, she is not giving up on her dream.
Most of us older women here on TE have likely had a LOT of stop-gap jobs during our lives that were not our dream jobs and not even decent jobs, but they were jobs that put food in our mouths during hard times. Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.
But if you really want to get a stop-gap temporary job, give yourself an image checkup.

[shootingstar]

Don't forget to use the food bank.

No shame in that. I knew a Canadian woman who was an ex-nurse (nurse on cruise ship, intensive care nurse in Swiss hospitals), later trilingual receptionist (German, French and English) for the Canadian embassy overseas for 7 yrs., returned to Canada, did 2 yrs. college to change careers...but was abit in debt. So she went to the food bank for a few months.

I hired her in during one of my former jobs.... she had the formal training (in her career switch/college degree), her 2 non-English languages were used for some minor translation and research work for agency contact internationally, her ex-nurse background was useful for paramedic/emergency care research questions.

If you claim other language fluencies in your resume, in addition to English, make sure you can genuinely be able to speak the language properly to assist clients with accurate translations who are in need of services if you work in a service related /client-facing job. Most people I know are only strong at most, up to 3 languages, with any 4th language and up, as quite secondary and patchy. If they are fortunate for the 3 languages, for all 3 fluencies: speaking, reading and writing. I'm only commenting, depending if you choose to note Polish in your resume.

I omit my Chinese language designation....I cannot assist in accurate, smooth communication...though I have been asked in 2 different jobs I've held.

[redrhodie]

Time to start thinking creatively. You're a designer. What can you make with little money, and sell on the street/fairs/parks? Think cheap, fun, and easy.

Can you silk screen? Can you turn old into new? Use your skills.

[jessica47201]

Well, if I think about it, I sorta sold out. When I was growing up all I wanted to do was have tattoos, dye my hair crazy and rebel against society and be an individual, you know express who I thought I was. I know that's not what you are trying to do, your actually working towards a career, but I've been in the military now for 12 year, I'm 30yrs old and here I am smack dab in the middle of conformity at its greatest, never where I thought I would be. But I know that when I'm out of uniform, I can be who I want to be. I managed to get the tattoos I always wanted, granted I can't dye my hair pink (I always wanted to do that, seriously) but my hair is super short so when I'm out of uniform I spike it up some and sometime use the washout dye. But my husband and I have a house to live in, cars to drive and our 2 cats that are extremely over-weight!!! Granted we don't have any kids, which I hope we start trying soon but, in the end we are happy and healthy and at least one of us has a job!!! Even if I had to sell out alittle!!!

[NbyNW]

A friend of mine told me about this website:

www.teachstreet.com

It looks like a great way to advertise some skills that other people might pay you to teach them. For starters, you could teach people how to hem/alter their own clothes. I realize this isn't necessarily rocket science, but with your training you probably know some tricks of the trade that make the task easier/faster/more polished.

Good luck!

[indigoiis]

Now might be a good time for you to read "What Color is Your Parachute?" - written over 20 years ago, it is still relevant to today.
In fact, the dude who wrote it is having a workshop in SF:
http://www.jobhuntersbible.com/

Start positive: you are LUCKY. You are at the beginning of your journey and keep your mind open. Some of the things you say might come across as sounding defensive (because you perhaps assume you are being judged - perhaps rightly so) but a defensive tone is VERY apparent in interviews.

Start visualizing what you want and then make it happen. Even if you have to flip burgers or wear a smock at a grocery store for awhile, you are the mistress of your own destiny and you need to NETWORK and get yourself out there in order to create your path. If that means going to after-hours social events for your field, to fashion shows (where you can hand out business cards - make some if you haven't already) - alumni events - get your face where people will see it again and again and again. Volunteer at the university where you got your degree as a mentor. Volunteer for a fashion house. Find the time - make the time - to make your career.

A fellow TEer once said to me, as we were watching a bike race and hanging out with my daughter, "she looks like she's going to be a good art school candidate. Have you thought about working at an art school - could help with tuition...?" and right after our conversation, I applied for a job at the art school. It was a bet I was making for the next eight years of my life as my daughter finishes high school and (maybe?) goes to art school. But it was a direction I had to take a leap of faith for because it is something I want for her. Identify what YOU want for YOU and make it happen! ;)

[Tuckervill]

Trading your valuable time for something equally as valuable is not "selling out". It's participating in a system in our society which allows people to get the things they want for the things they have. We don't have to talk about whether capitalism is good or bad, because no one's mind will be changed. However, it is the way of the world here. Participate or not as you see fit, but don't let yourself sink to desperation and then expect sympathy or consideration for your self expression.

In the hierarchy of needs, pink hair does not rank.

eta: Okay, that came out more harsh than I intended. It's not personally directed, but directed at a general group of mainly young people, who have yet to learn these cold hard realities. Fortunately, we have recessions that help with this problem! ;)

Karen

[papaver]

You don't have to LOOK creative to BE creative. ;) Just tone it down a little and you'll be just fine. I often work with fashion designers and whenever they come to an important meeting they are very dressed down. They know that if they don't do that, they will not be taken seriously.

It took me a long time before I could realize my dream. I worked in factories, I did secretary work,... and I waited for my moment. And when it came, I was ready for it. :D

[shootingstar]

Presumably you'll scope out all the bike clothing manufacturers. Make a difference for women who cycle, Ivana:

Like here: http://www2.sugoi.com/can/eng/careers

Rent in Vancouver, B.C. is pretty high, one of the highest in Canada. On par with Toronto.

would agree with papaver..you will be meeting corporate clients to sell fashion /design lines..if there's a way to look edgey without screaming some other misleading message. After all, you will have to show your portfolio..that's where it counts too.

[Biciclista]

Hate to be putting the damper on your escape to Europe idea, but have you seen the unemployment statistics over there? They are hurting big time. Major corporations are laying off scads of people, they've got inflation, and right now they're very hostile about immigrants. I just read an article about how bad it is in Ireland, and England isn't much different.
You're not going to escape the bad economy by leaving the States. You might be able to escape your bills, but at least here you have your mother.

Good luck. I have a son in your shoes except he didn't get pierced or tattooed so perhaps he will have a slightly better chance of getting a crappy job.

[Selkie]

Ivana, when I received my BS, the economy was bad. I felt lucky to land a low paying retail mgt job that required long hours and barely paid me enough to pay my basic bills (I shared a one-bedroom apt w/a friend in a not-so-great area of Philly). It took two plus years after getting my degree to land a good entry-level job that paid a living wage, move up the "ladder," and I've been with the same employer for 21+ years. I never had a "dream" career --- I just wanted to be financially independent & comfortable, so I never had to move "home" again or ask my dad for help.

I am sending good karma your way. I understand - completely - about how you don't want to compromise your sensibilities and "conform." [I was part of the punk/new wave scene back in the '80s, although I had a more conservative facade]. You are lucky to have found your passion in life, and I hope that the fates align in a way that you can make a living doing what you love.

[IvonaDestroi]

Trading your valuable time for something equally as valuable is not "selling out". It's participating in a system in our society which allows people to get the things they want for the things they have. We don't have to talk about whether capitalism is good or bad, because no one's mind will be changed. However, it is the way of the world here. Participate or not as you see fit, but don't let yourself sink to desperation and then expect sympathy or consideration for your self expression.

In the hierarchy of needs, pink hair does not rank.

eta: Okay, that came out more harsh than I intended. It's not personally directed, but directed at a general group of mainly young people, who have yet to learn these cold hard realities. Fortunately, we have recessions that help with this problem! ;)

Karen

You're fun to debate with - I like these types of discussions with people whos ideas are exactly opposite of my own. Call it an exercise in objectivity...

well, you know, your generation probably had much more conservative attitudes then my own. For you, this type of thing is probably considered an extremity of some sort, a youthful and unrealistic phase in life that one will eventually "snap out of".

You have to understand that as time goes on, things that were previously considered exotic quickly become socially acceptable. You remind me so much of my mother, with the idea that that it's just a childish rebellious attitude to grow out of. 10 years later it's still 'just a phase'...

Just like you are entitled to your religion, every one else is also entitled to theirs. Well, then, think of this as my religion. Not everyone looks at the world through the same lens. Imagine even having this discussion in the 50's... It would have been impercievable. I see a little bit of that leftover in your ideas. (BTW the 50's was the best decade ever in my opinion and I wish I lived back then...except for the whole civil rights issue, but the rest was great-ironic, right?) I am in no way saying you were around back then, but many of those ideas stuck into the following generations.

Anyways I don't think that's really the issue here, why are we still talking about hair color? As I previously stated, it's pretty acceptable in this part of California and really that's not a serious issue at interviews thus far at all. Everyone's said their fine with it. I went to that interview that I was worried might have issues with it this morning, and it turns out the guy had no problem with it whatsoever.

it's funny you call it a "problem". I call it a solution! :D

[Flybye]

Okay, I will be quiet no longer :)
Have you considered getting career counseling and trying to identify other areas that use your talents that might have a better hire ratio?
I have spent the last 4 months in a course teaching counselors the how's and why's of career counseling.
From this vantage point, I see a lot of benefit in broadening your areas of interest, although it is obvious that you are open to anything.
Also from this vantage point, I can see no better time to get more education. I know that you mentioned that you were busy 80 hours per week while you schooled, but have you considered that it does not have to be the same experience the second time around? I know that it is expensive to attend college, but it is also an investment. It differs from no other investment in that you have to be willing to research the availability of jobs on the other end. You sound like a bright woman - a career test might narrow some other options that have high placement rates, might give you an opportunity to have some income from student loan funding, and might give you some relief from the stress that you are under.
Now, this is just an opinion, but a cat is a cat. I don't think undo guilt is necessary to heap on you right now - list him on Craigslist or find a humane society to help you out.
As for the pink hair - here is my $.02 - take it or leave it - I LOVE to wear shorts and a tank top - no make up - pony tail - hat. But when it come to work - I have professional attire. Do I love that? In some ways, yes, in others no. But I do feel that it is necessary to dress for the job. Unfortunately, to some who have a stereotypical view of the world, individuals who look different scare them. Thoughts they may have are generally negative and unfair.
You have the advantage of choice in this situation. If freedom of expression is that important to you that you would not consider changing your hair color - then be happy with that but know that there are consequences to the choice. One of those might be unemployment. Is that unemployment worth leaving the country and your family? Consider too, whether leaving will be to your advantage or to your disadvantage. I would think, and this is just an assumption, that you would be at an even greater disadvantage to finding work in another country.
I truly hope that you can find a balance in all of this - the thought of not knowing where or what was going to happen in one month is a scary thought.
Good luck in your decision. Take time to think it through.

[IvonaDestroi]

Ok, I am going to say this one last and final time. The hair color is not as big of an issue as you guys are making it out to be.

It does have a mild hinderance, but in the long run, the effects are VERY minor and the very vast majority of employers around here are not bothered by it. I do not think that changing it would be worth it in this particular circumstance, however I do accept the consequential exemption from a small minority of employers that I would typically be some of my bottom choices anyway.

My location makes this decision a lot easier, so please don't think that appearance is my main problem. It's really not.

The real problem is the over/underqualified issue and also competition by the sheer number of applicants. It's not the look of my competitors, it's their qualification levels and the fact that theres so many of them. I think really my biggest problem is the qualification thing. I'm not "16" enough for those bottom jobs (there's tons of these little kids competing for the same job), and I'm not experienced enough for the few things open in my field.

Also mental strength is another thing I was asking for advice on... that's the really tough part!

[NbyNW]

Posting this because it might be of general interest, and not just to the OP:

http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/1121i.pdf

This is a list of skilled professions that Australia has decided they need to recruit from abroad. While they are experiencing the same slow-down as the rest of us, it seems that the government is still trying to promote this program.

And yes, fashion designer is on the list!

[ttaylor508]

I think your biggest issue is not hair color or anything other than lack of working experience in the field you are looking to get into. Have you looked for internships that might give you some on-the-job experience?

I was laid off in December so I am currently unemployed and have been actively looking for work. I have over 20 years of experience in my field and still haven't had much luck finding anything. I think it is just a really, really hard time to be looking for work.

Wishing you lots of luck! Hopefully things will pick up in the job market for all of us who are currently seeking employment. :)

[Bluetree]

Ok, I wanted to keep quiet but have to weigh in here. I went to art school as well. I came out with more than $100,000 in debt. I couldn't find a position in my field and my dream job seemed like a lost cause. You know what I did?

• I moved back in with my parents, as embarrassing as that was at the time. It did serious damage to my social life, but I feel I had no other/better options.

• I took ANY job. No job was beneath me. I scrubbed windows, I did errands, I did sh**work. Why? Because I had a responsibility to repay my loans and that came above my petty pride. Any thoughts I had of entitlement only stood in the way of success. I knew I was destined for something better, even if it took a long time. In short, when times got tough I sucked it up. (Frankly, in this economy, I find the attitude that a "job is beneath anyone" quite foolish)

• I did internships. I did stuff for free, just for the experience. I put up with a heap of abuse from crappy bosses. I did stuff where my talents were, quite frankly, exploited. It wasn't easy – nothing worthwhile is. But I learned a lot... sometimes because of my jobs, sometimes in spite of it. No one handed me my dream job. I paid my dues, and I am proud that I did.

• I kept my eye on the prize. Everything I did was for my ultimate goal – to be a self-supporting artist. When you read stats like "5% of Fine Arts graduates are able to support themselves in their field" you know how tough it is. Self-expression in business is a luxury for those with power... I was determined to earn that power. And sometimes, pay the price.

• I made hard choices. Do I take a job with better earning potential or one that furthers my career? Do I turn away clients that I may find personally offensive? How much do I value creature comforts over creative independence? Do I take the job I have to do over the one I want to do?

These are the kinds of decisions that are in front of you now. It's tough out there, so you have to be tougher. Hard as nails tough. You may even have to make personal sacrifices/concessions for the time being. But you have to decide what is the most important thing to you, and then make a plan to achieve it. If you think I'm full of it, guess what, I did that dance and now I can call my own shots. And... I now have pink hair.

[shootingstar]

Ivona, if hair colour is not a big deal..wait until your hair turns grey! Otherwise why do so many women colour their hair to hide the grey???

The whole issue of ageism, image/perception and job-hunting becomes a more twisted ballgame.

I can't even begin to tell you, Ivona how many women envy that I have never coloured my hair yet. One less cost for me so far. :)

It's still all naturally black hair..with many years of work experience which I haven't regretted thus far.

Image can be important for different reasons at different stages in life. The most recent discussion on the unemployed Susan Boyle from the British tv talent competition and perceptions of her image vs. her inner gifts, is a stunning example.

I have confidence you aren't as clued-out or naive as you appear to be...particularily if your parent(s) immigrated from outside of non-English speaking country. Usually kids of such parents, witness serious struggle of their parents and their itinerant friends to survive in North America.

[Blueberry]

Ivona, if hair colour is not a big deal..wait until your hair turns grey! Otherwise why do so many women colour their hair to hide the grey???

Shoot - there was an article on MSNBC *encouraging* women with gray hair to color it. I, for one, was offended.

I wish you all the luck in the world! I finally (after 8 months) have just found a job. It's not perfect (it's not technically a permanent position), but it's a LOT closer to what I really want to be doing than anything else has been. And I think it will lead to more. You've gotten some good advice here - just be persistent. Jobs many times come from where you least expect it (I actually got 2 offers, and I didn't technically apply for either).

CA

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

well, you know, your generation probably had much more conservative attitudes then my own. For you, this type of thing is probably considered an extremity of some sort, a youthful and unrealistic phase in life that one will eventually "snap out of".

I just have to respond to these things you wrote. Call it, to paraphrase your words, another exercise in objectivity. ;)

First, there is more than one generation responding to your posts here, so let's keep that in mind- we are of all ages here.
Then, please don't assume that any of these other generations had 'more conservative attitudes' than you when they were your age. Speaking for myself at least, we took risks, we paved the way in terms of rebellious extremes and revolution against the Establishment. I feel fairly safe in saying that many of us were just as wild, creative, and free thinking as you. Many of the women here still are! Without going into detail, I consider myself lucky to even be alive after somehow making it through my first 25 years.


You have to understand that as time goes on, things that were previously considered exotic quickly become socially acceptable.

Um, we already learned this a long time ago. We invented 'the exotic' too, you know. So did our mothers and grandmothers. We were all 'socially unacceptable' and radical in turn. As will your children likely be if you have any.


You remind me so much of my mother, with the idea that that it's just a childish rebellious attitude to grow out of. 10 years later it's still 'just a phase'...

Now that's funny! It is more than probable that in 15 years or so, you will suddenly realize with a shock that you remind yourself of your mother. Most of us have already experienced that little treat. :D Later still, we start to realize that maybe our mothers were not quite as clueless and conservative as we thought they were. :D

Yet many of our radical/rebellious thoughts and our fierce individualism we still carry with us as adults, just in an evolved form. Sometimes you won't see it so obviously on the outside....but believe me, it's in there! :cool: Oooh...the stories we could tell. Most of us former young rebels have slowly evolved methods of using the passion and individualism in our lives in creative or productive ways to build a life for ourselves. This is a very useful skill, this harnessing of the Wild Forces of Nature within us all, and it comes only with experience and from a lifetime of learning from our mistakes. Do not confuse this experience with 'conservativism'.


Not everyone looks at the world through the same lens. Imagine even having this discussion in the 50's... It would have been impercievable. I see a little bit of that leftover in your ideas. (BTW the 50's was the best decade ever in my opinion and I wish I lived back then...except for the whole civil rights issue, but the rest was great-ironic, right?) I am in no way saying you were around back then, but many of those ideas stuck into the following generations.

You mean 'unimaginable'?
Every generation carries influences and is a product to some extent of the several generations before it, even yours.
Actually, despite the hype, the '50's was a decade of repression- McCarthyism spreading its ugly icy fingers of fear across the country, hateful segregation and brutal race riots, monumental social disdain for anything rebellious or non-conforming...the decade of cookie cutter suburbia, vulgar materialism, environmental destruction, gluttony, and waste, blind corporate loyalty, and the promotion of sameness as being somehow patriotic. Women were still expected to get married, have children, and stay home vacuuming and cooking. And let's not forget the really bad food. For most people, Happy Days it wasn't. Yet, despite all that, you'd be surprised to learn that yes indeed, there were discussions just like this one back then too! :rolleyes:


Anyways I don't think that's really the issue here, why are we still talking about hair color? As I previously stated, it's pretty acceptable in this part of California and really that's not a serious issue at interviews thus far at all. Everyone's said their fine with it. I went to that interview that I was worried might have issues with it this morning, and it turns out the guy had no problem with it whatsoever.
it's funny you call it a "problem". I call it a solution! :D

I think she was referring to the 'problem' you brought up in this thread- that of not having a job and being in your current difficult situation.

I think it's natural for someone young to feel that older people don't understand them, their values, or the issues. In reality, most of us women have not forgotten our beginnings, or the difficult lessons we had to learn along the way. We are on your side. We've been there.

I agree with you, we've all discussed your hair long enough. ;) It's about far more than hair, and the problem you face is a serious one effecting far too many people in our country today. But because the problem is so widespread, any little thing can either work against you or give you an edge on the competition.
Many women have now given you their valuable input based on their own experiences. Put together, that's a lot of experience. Lots of good, varied, and/or interesting suggestions to think about! Consider it all carefully before dismissing it, keep your mind receptive. The rest is up to you. :)

[Biciclista]

You want to keep your mind strong? I'm not sure what you mean like that? Does it mean being stubborn? you sound kind of stubborn.

You come in here and say; I have tattoos funny hair and I can't get a job. what should I do?

So you DON'T expect us to say; clean up your act, keep the fun stuff for after hours?

Ivona, I thank my lucky stars that I am not where you are. When people need strength, they go to their families. They forget about their pride and take advice from their elders. I was younger than you when I did that. it really burned me and I thought the advice was stupid, but since I did trust (my grandparents) them, I did what they said. And it helped me a lot down the road of life.

Read BlueTree's post about 3 times. She chose an even harder career path than you have, and she's made it.

Good luck

[crazycanuck]

IvonaDestroi-I used to walk past a park near a previous work where many pink, blue, etc haired young folks used to hang out. Emos, punks etc. I often wondered how they'd find work & what work they would do if they had to conform.

ANyways, I want to chime in & say if you can't get a job in your area right now after uni, data entry, etc will always be around. Take what you can, pay off your bills then travel. Yep, do networking!!!

(I'm back at uni & am making as many contacts in the Planning sector as possible. If you are willing to buy the contact a coffee, they might have suggestions to get into the field. I don't know how the market works in the US)

Jocelynlf post regarding moving to Aust & working-what about getting a one year work visa(is that avail to americans? I know it is for commonwealth citizens), doing backpacker type jobs(east coast might be better) & at the same time scoping the market for work in your desired area. Get some work experience first though!!!

Lastly, good luck in your job search!

PS-TE ladies will be blunt with you & as a member of the younger generation(i'm youngish too..36), don't think of it as an insult. Think about what they're saying, they've been there.

[Pedal Wench]

My location makes this decision a lot easier, so please don't think that appearance is my main problem. It's really not.

<<>>

Also mental strength is another thing I was asking for advice on... that's the really tough part!

Okay - you asked for it...

You want mental strength? Running away is weak, not strong. Sticking around, caring for the cat you've committed to, using the security deposit to pay back even a portion of what you owe to some other person who probably can't run away from their responsibility - that takes strength.

When I was broke I cleaned the floors at a doggie day care. I did the samples at a grocery store. I stocked grocery shelves - Jelly Belly beans don't stock themselves. I owed people money and it was my responsiblity to pay them back. It took mental strength to spend every free moment working, but that's what had to be done.

[NbyNW]

I think it's rare that anyone has their ideal job just out of school, even when the economy is doing well. However, I may just have a tinted view, seeing as every time I finish a degree there seems to be a recession going on.

Taking a job in the short term to meet your financial obligations and pay for food and the roof over your head does not mean you have to give up your dreams. It may mean putting them on hold for a little while.

You may pick up skills and experience along the way that seemed totally irrelevant, but will help you to succeed at your dreams in the long run.

Waiting tables/working retail may help you hone valuable communication skills; office admin work/data entry could give you the management skills that you could call on to run your own business someday. Working for thoroughly unpleasant people may help you develop your own management philosophy for the day when you are the one calling the shots.

For me, the mental strength has come in small moments: feeling a sense of accomplishment that I was the one paying the bills, and no longer needed to ask my parents for help; getting out of debt and staying out; and for me it was later that I figured out what I wanted to do, so each step in that direction was a moment where I had to dig deep and find the inner strength and the social support to do it.

Like others, I have had short periods where I had to move back in with my parents -- twice due to injury -- and it wasn't my first choice. But you do what you have to do and then you get back out there.

You'll be okay. You've survived the rigors of design school (been there), which means that you know how to work hard. And you know how to work long hours. If you stay healthy and uninjured, really that's all you need.

[jessica47201]

Have you tried getting a job, bartending? The more outgoing and unique the bartender the better, and if you can play the game right you can make some killer tips!!!!

[solobiker]

Have you tried getting a job, bartending? The more outgoing and unique the bartender the better, and if you can play the game right you can make some killer tips!!!!

I would have to agree with the above post.

I work and have worked in the same field for over 15 years and it is not accepted to have pink hair or visable tattoos. Currently where I work they require anyone that has any tattoos on their arms, face, neck, hands..etc that they are covered with clothing and if they can't be covered with clothes then they have to wear a bandaide over them. And their hair can not be an "unatural color" Unfortunately it is just the image it protrays. It has nothing to do with the older generation not understanding, heck several years ago...yes before my time in the work force women were not allowed to wear pants to work..that was huge! My Mom told me how she (she as a PE teacher) had to wear skirts. Now look at how teachers dress. Times have changed. Sorry, I didn't mean to digress.

I wish you the best.

[TxDoc]

Can you go back to school, and like study for an advance degree or maybe a different major? School could be a good place to be - for sure better than venturing into Europe where unemployment is even higher then here. Our hospital laid off many people last year after the hurricane - and I know several that decided to go back to school and use this difficult time to make themselves more qualified and easier to place on the job market.
It could be a temporary solution to the problem - and a good investment for the future. Also, some schools allow you to work part-time in the institution and grant you a small salary - and that would help you with repaying debt or at least make up living expenses.

[shootingstar]

Someone mentioned offering to do some initial work for free..

Don't forget the charity fundraisers where your creation if you know your audience in advance, could be auctioned off. And people with money attend some of these fundraisers..great for business networking. :)

After having only $13.00 in my bank acount, I moved out to big city upon graduation. After nearly 3 wks., out of desperation I volunteered my services. The manager looked at my resume, we chatted..and offered me my first paid job in my profession. Granted, it was part-time, small role...while I held down part-time jobs at...3 different bookstore locations (yea, I was blitzed on some days)...but it was the first step.

And this mentor (20 years older than I), remains a good friend to me to this day, offering me advice at different times of my career. We still are in touch and chat up. I credit the start of my paid career ..to her.

_________________________________
Off topic: I dragged out my sewing machine tonight to mend some tiny rips in a pair of dress black pants..for yet another interview in a few days. Pretty pathetic that I cannot think of any place in any shopping mall in downtown Vancouver to get a fat spool of black thread..sewing suppliers have become scarce these last few decades. So bright blue thread it was-- thankfully on the pants inside and also for a pair of cycling shorts. Must have done the serging tension wrong on the weakened lycra material..it looks bubbly. But who cares for 1 more season, if I'm just riding for fitness. :)

Was watching a reality fashion design competition. It was the finale. That is a HUGE amount of time and energy for each young designer to create each piece for just a collection modelled down that runway. I can appreciate your 80 hr. wk. long homework design assignment and class time. Just cutting and sewing 1 bottom or top tailored piece with some fine French finishes, would take me at least 2-3 days and its evenings solid. Your time would also have to include fabric selection, design, pattern drafting, etc.

[Running Mommy]

Reading through all these replies and something came to mind...
There is nothing we can do or say to help Ivona.
This whole thread gave me a headache. So much good advice, but giving it to someone that is not "open" to it. Because of course we are all "old" and from a "different generation".... As if!!!
I'm walking away from this thread shaking my head.

[papaver]

And I have a big meeting with some important Antwerp fashion designers today. I wonder if they will be dressed down. :D:D:D

[Selkie]

Kind of obvious and someone might have already mentioned it.

Why not do alterations/seamstress work? See if you can get work with a tailor or at a big Dept Store.

[lph]

Reading through all these replies and something came to mind...
There is nothing we can do or say to help Ivona.
This whole thread gave me a headache. So much good advice, but giving it to someone that is not "open" to it. Because of course we are all "old" and from a "different generation".... As if!!!
I'm walking away from this thread shaking my head.

With all due respect, I don't agree, Running Mommy. There's plenty of good general advice here, as far as I can tell, but not being in her shoes it's hard for me to tell how applicable it is to her situation. She's entitled to her own opinion no matter her age, too.

And she never did say anything about "us all being old". I'm finding this a really good thread, full of interesting stories. I can't really add anything but keep reading it all. I wish I'd known enough to go ask people for input when I was at that point in life.

[papaver]

A friend of mine has worked a couple of years in a costume shop. They make costumes for big opera, musical and theatre productions. The first two months she worked for free, after that she got paid a normal salary. Now she works at the design department of Levi's.

[ZenSojourner]

I, too, get the distinct impression that the original poster has some unrealistic ideas about us elderly types.

The current generation always seems to labor under the misapprehension that they're the ones who invented revolution.

I have to laugh when I see things like interviews of youngsters on TV regarding, say, internet access or the AMAZING idea that there are people over 30 on FACEBOOK! These kids say things like, "Oh, I think it's WONDERFUL that older people are figuring out how to use computers!"

LOL! Who do you think INVENTED them?

And talk about restrictive dress codes! I was in junior high school before girls were allowed to wear slacks to school, because it was considered "immodest". Yes, much more "modest" to walk up the stairs in a skirt while boys stood at the bottom yelling, "I see London, I see France, I see whosis' UNDERPANTS". Teachers weren't allowed to wear slacks to school until I was in High School.

I have my own "unusual" dress choices, but I don't dress that way (stretch pants, hippy tops, Salwar Kameez, sandals) when I NEED a job. Now when I have job CHOICES, it's a different matter. I once turned down a job that would have doubled my salary because they required women to wear 2" heels and dresses. You had to have a (male) supervisor's WRITTEN PERMISSION to wear slacks to work - as a PROGRAMMER.

But I already HAD a job. I didn't have $100,000 in debt and a cat to take care of with no income in sight.

Speaking of which, it's women like us who opened up engineering professions for other women. The school I attended ran their computer sciences department from the College of Engineering. That meant it was heavily math/engineering/electronics oriented. In nearly all of my classes I was the only girl, or one of only 2 or 3 (the others generally being foreign grad students). The attitude of the instructors ranged from full on chauvinism and unfair grading, to treating me like some kind of cute mascot, with the odd sexual predator thrown in. But every one of us dowdy, conservative women who forged ahead in a program like that made it easier for younger ones coming behind us to follow in our wake.

For years I was considered a bra-burning, ball-busting, man-hating Femi-Nazi for doing things like:

1) refusing to act as a typist when I had been hired as a software engineer
2) insisting that my boss call me by my name instead of "honey" or "dear"
3) informing my boss that it was unprofessional for him to touch me and stroke my hair and that I expected him to treat me professionally at all times
4) offering to sue the company for refusing to send me to a professional society convention (important to professional development and considered when granting promotions and raises) that ALL the men in the office were going to because, according to management, it "might make their wives jealous"
5) refusing to divulge my then-husband's salary to a potential employer during a job interview

And on and on ad infinitum

You may think the color of your hair and all those tattoos don't matter, but I guarantee you, they do. Especially in an employer's market, they are going to choose the LEAST controversial looking potential employees. Businesses are in business to make money. That means they cater to CUSTOMERS, not employees. And they are highly unlikely to hire someone that gives even the least hint that some customers might find them off-putting. I doubt that you would refuse to buy coffee at Starbucks because you were faced with an employee conventionally attired and coifed; but I guarantee you, however "judgmental" it may be, there are a whole lot of people who won't frequent an establishment where the employees are tattooed, pierced, and dyed in extremely unconventional ways. That means employers catering to those customers are not going to hire you, even if they have no personal qualms about your appearance and even if there's nothing formal in their hiring rules about it.

You're 25 years old. If you think you are never going to change, your taste in music, your preferences in attire, your taste in food and entertainment, the type of men you date, what kind of friends you make and keep, well, all I can say is you've got a lot of surprises waiting in store for you. We ALL have "phases" we are going through. It's called LIFE. Growth brings change. If you continue to grow, I guarantee you will change your mind about LOTS of things. Personally I'm looking forward to growing into and out of a whole LOT of phases yet as I progress through life. The ones I've already outgrown are strung behind me like pearls; I'll be making new pearls and leaving them behind my entire life. I hope you do, too, whatever you feel about the pearl you're making right now. Not growing, changing, and learning would be such dreary tedium.

I'm on my fourth or fifth career change. I started out in biology and medical research, then software engineering, retired to homestead for awhile, then medical again, more homesteading, now I'm attending a doctoral program in clinical psych. Lots of pretty pearls, but I outgrew them and moved on.

From what you've written so far here, all I can say is you seem very inflexible and rigid in your thinking. You expect the world to conform to you and accept you as you are without remark or hesitation.

It just doesn't work that way.

Obviously your choice of attire and appearance is just that, YOUR choice. But do not fool yourself into thinking that when you are on the far extreme of appearance that it will not have a negative effect on your chances of finding a job in such a bad economy. And those of us who are telling you so are not fools blinded by conformism. We're women, many of us revolutionaries in our day, and some of us revolutionaries still, who have twice or three times the experience of the real world as you do, and who are trying to share some of that hard-won knowledge with an up and coming member of the sisterhood.

Nobody is telling you you can't dress and look however you want in your free time; but work time isn't free time, it's time you're getting paid, and that gives the employer a say in what is and isn't acceptable during work hours. If the job requiring dresses and 2" heels had been my only option, I'd have taken it, worn the heels and dresses - and kept looking for something else. But I'd have taken it in the meantime and CONFORMED, externally only, because that would have ultimately served MY ends.

In a GOOD economy, you've got a lot more leeway to be revolutionary in your appearance. But in a BAD economy, you'll only be hurting yourself by presenting yourself to an employer with a "Here I am, take it or leave it" attitude. As you are finding out, they're leaving it.

[jobob]

Wow, many fascinating and thoughtful posts here! Thankyee kindly!

- Jo (an old fart) :cool:

[Tuckervill]

Someone may have already said this, but we're just saying that hair color is "emblematic" of the whole appearance issue. It's just shorthand for the self-expression that Flybye described so eloquently.


You have the advantage of choice in this situation. If freedom of expression is that important to you that you would not consider changing your hair color - then be happy with that but know that there are consequences to the choice. One of those might be unemployment. Is that unemployment worth leaving the country and your family? Consider too, whether leaving will be to your advantage or to your disadvantage. I would think, and this is just an assumption, that you would be at an even greater disadvantage to finding work in another country.

And I just want to say one more thing.

"YOU KIDS GET OFF MY LAWN!" :D:D:D

Karen

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

You're 25 years old. If you think you are never going to change, your taste in music, your preferences in attire, your taste in food and entertainment, the type of men you date, what kind of friends you make and keep, well, all I can say is you've got a lot of surprises waiting in store for you. We ALL have "phases" we are going through. It's called LIFE. Growth brings change. If you continue to grow, I guarantee you will change your mind about LOTS of things. Personally I'm looking forward to growing into and out of a whole LOT of phases yet as I progress through life. The ones I've already outgrown are strung behind me like pearls; I'll be making new pearls and leaving them behind my entire life. I hope you do, too, whatever you feel about the pearl you're making right now. Not growing, changing, and learning would be such dreary tedium.

I'm on my fourth or fifth career change. I started out in biology and medical research, then software engineering, retired to homestead for awhile, then medical again, more homesteading, now I'm attending a doctoral program in clinical psych. Lots of pretty pearls, but I outgrew them and moved on.....

....And those of us who are telling you so are not fools blinded by conformism. We're women, many of us revolutionaries in our day, and some of us revolutionaries still, who have twice or three times the experience of the real world as you do, and who are trying to share some of that hard-won knowledge with an up and coming member of the sisterhood.

Wow, what a great and wise post. Zensojourner- you have thoroughly inspired at least one person today- me.
Still working on my fifth or sixth different and challenging life at the moment...adding those pearls until I die...

[Biciclista]

Zensojourner, thanks for posting. The OP might not read it or care, but i was impressed and I am sure others that read this will benefit from the time you put into it.

Your mention of being accused of being a bra burner brought back memories. In my job as a file clerk, other young girls used to come up to me and ask if I had burned bras... I had a slightly different attitude from the rest of them and I guess it showed.

[mtbdarby]

What a fascinating thread this has become!

Zensojourner - that was beautiful. I look forward to my new phases in life as well. Very well worded.

Flybye -another well written and expressed comment.

Ivana - I'm hearing a lot of "can'ts" whether typed or implied of why you can't find a job. Turn those into "cans". Target companies that you want to work for then find the decision makers in those companies and be persistant. I lost my job in August - the most senior person in my department, but they let me go and kept the guys. I sent out all sorts of feelers to everyone I knew and started doing my research on companies I would have liked to work with.

Long story short, I found a company I wanted to work for and I knew I could work from home doing it for the first time in my life. I'm a single parent and I was tired of spending my whole day working and commuting. I, very professionally, kept contacting the owner and my now new boss with reasons of why they couldn't afford NOT to hire me! With my skills and contacts I was able to justify my salary to them, and they didn't even have a position open! Finally, I pulled a little bluff that I had another company interested (but I was prepared if they called the bluff because I would not have been any worse off, and I was working with another company just didn't have the offer). Not only did I get an offer from them, but I work from home and my salary is $10,000 more than my last job. Persistance, done right, pays off.

Be patient, persistant and professional. It will pay off.

And I for one, would have loved to met a few of these TE'ers in their younger days and am grateful for the wisdom they so eagerly share with the rest of us. It's like an extended family of really cool sisters:p

[jobob]

Personally I'm looking forward to growing into and out of a whole LOT of phases yet as I progress through life. The ones I've already outgrown are strung behind me like pearls; I'll be making new pearls and leaving them behind my entire life.
[,,,]

I'm on my fourth or fifth career change. [...] Lots of pretty pearls, but I outgrew them and moved on.




I agree, this is simply wonderful.

We may need to call you Pearl, ZS ... :)

[indigoiis]

Maybe your answer lies in the questions.

[IvonaDestroi]

Okay - you asked for it...

You want mental strength? Running away is weak, not strong. Sticking around, caring for the cat you've committed to, using the security deposit to pay back even a portion of what you owe to some other person who probably can't run away from their responsibility - that takes strength.

When I was broke I cleaned the floors at a doggie day care. I did the samples at a grocery store. I stocked grocery shelves - Jelly Belly beans don't stock themselves. I owed people money and it was my responsiblity to pay them back. It took mental strength to spend every free moment working, but that's what had to be done.

I agree with you. I'd do the bottom jobs - if any of them were hiring!!!! I havn't given up on the job front, but theres just so very little available and what is out there has just tons of applicants, even (esspecially) those types of jobs.

A lot of my friends are out of work and in the same situation. I don't know if somehow the economy problem is more concentrated here in Oakland or what, but what I see in the news is in no way comparable to what I see going on around me. It's A LOT worse for my peers and me. Probably because we're all young people who were on the bottom end of the food chain in the first place, and Oakland has always been the other side of the tracks for the bay area.

Also, "running away" wise, my plan has been Europe for a few years now. "I'll go to school, graduate, and go to Europe that summer" has been my plan since I started school. So if I don't accomplish that, then that is what I'd consider running away. Once I get a plan in my head I follow through with it no matter what, so the Europe thing isn't a whim. On the contrary, it's sticking with the original plan.

There are many reasons I want to do this:

1) Now is a good time to travel and a bad time to be out of work

2) My aunt in South Africa owns 2 travel agencies (Europe and Africa) and offered me a safari as a graduation gift. This means tickets half way to Europe for free and the rest of it for super cheap (and a free safari :D). Also, she has done some work in the fashion field herself and I havn't seen her since I was a kid. This is not only an opportunity to network globally, but also get some sound advice from a very successful woman who has run successful small bussineses in everything from scuba diving to fashion to travel.

Along the lines of cheap tickets, I'm 25 which is that last year you're considered a youth for a EuroPass. This means my choice of 5 countries, any train, any day, anywhere for 2 months for $300. If I wait past my birthday in november it will no longer be affordable.

3) I have family in Poland and England. I was born in Poland, so I'm already European. I havn't seen my family in years and my grandma will probably not last much longer. I'd like to see her before she dies, which I already missed out on with my grandpa.

4) I have friends in England and Italy. I'm also in the punk scene which means I have a vast network of family members I've never met who will provide me with squats and companionship anywhere in the world that I go, even though I've never met them, and we don't speak the same language. Believe it or not, we take care of eachother. And theres lots of us. Everywhere. I've done this many times for others, taken advantage of it a few times when I travelled, and it's an awesome community to be a part of.

5) I want to figure out where I want to spend the next few years of my life. I might never return, or I might come back. Either way I need to see whats out there and make an educated decision about what's the best environment for me and where I will be happiest in establishing myself. Now is a good time for that. In fact- it might just be the perfect time for that.

6) I've had a good place with a friend for the other cat, Molotov, for awhile. Finding vader the cat a home is only a challenge because I was supposed to be watching him temporarily, and I was never prepared to commit to a second cat in the first place. I will make sure that he does not end up in a shelter no matter what it takes.

Ok then, as you can see, Europe is much more then running away. In a way, it is coming home. I'm only trying to work so I can get those damn tickets and some spending money before I go. Unless, of course, I found something that made staying worthwhile. If I find an internship I'll hang around until its done, but theres no point in keeping a bottom of the rung dead end job and staying here just to maintain, when my plan was to go to Europe in the first place. Being houseless might be a blessing in disguise - I can save up 10 times faster that way and be outta here in 2 months. And who the hell is gonna give up a free safari anyway:D

[redrhodie]

It all sounds good to me! Go! Travel, have adventures, see it all! You can always work later. Things will turn around. There will be time for that later.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Oh well, then. Now it suddenly all sounds great. Forget everything we said!
Have a great time on your safari!

[NbyNW]

Sounds like a pretty good plan to me! I hope it comes together for you, and that you're able to find a home for Vader.

[IvonaDestroi]

I, too, get the distinct impression that the original poster has some unrealistic ideas about us elderly types.

The current generation always seems to labor under the misapprehension that they're the ones who invented revolution.

I have to laugh when I see things like interviews of youngsters on TV regarding, say, internet access or the AMAZING idea that there are people over 30 on FACEBOOK! These kids say things like, "Oh, I think it's WONDERFUL that older people are figuring out how to use computers!"

LOL! Who do you think INVENTED them?

And talk about restrictive dress codes! I was in junior high school before girls were allowed to wear slacks to school, because it was considered "immodest". Yes, much more "modest" to walk up the stairs in a skirt while boys stood at the bottom yelling, "I see London, I see France, I see whosis' UNDERPANTS". Teachers weren't allowed to wear slacks to school until I was in High School.

I have my own "unusual" dress choices, but I don't dress that way (stretch pants, hippy tops, Salwar Kameez, sandals) when I NEED a job. Now when I have job CHOICES, it's a different matter. I once turned down a job that would have doubled my salary because they required women to wear 2" heels and dresses. You had to have a (male) supervisor's WRITTEN PERMISSION to wear slacks to work - as a PROGRAMMER.

But I already HAD a job. I didn't have $100,000 in debt and a cat to take care of with no income in sight.

Speaking of which, it's women like us who opened up engineering professions for other women. The school I attended ran their computer sciences department from the College of Engineering. That meant it was heavily math/engineering/electronics oriented. In nearly all of my classes I was the only girl, or one of only 2 or 3 (the others generally being foreign grad students). The attitude of the instructors ranged from full on chauvinism and unfair grading, to treating me like some kind of cute mascot, with the odd sexual predator thrown in. But every one of us dowdy, conservative women who forged ahead in a program like that made it easier for younger ones coming behind us to follow in our wake.

For years I was considered a bra-burning, ball-busting, man-hating Femi-Nazi for doing things like:

1) refusing to act as a typist when I had been hired as a software engineer
2) insisting that my boss call me by my name instead of "honey" or "dear"
3) informing my boss that it was unprofessional for him to touch me and stroke my hair and that I expected him to treat me professionally at all times
4) offering to sue the company for refusing to send me to a professional society convention (important to professional development and considered when granting promotions and raises) that ALL the men in the office were going to because, according to management, it "might make their wives jealous"
5) refusing to divulge my then-husband's salary to a potential employer during a job interview

And on and on ad infinitum

You may think the color of your hair and all those tattoos don't matter, but I guarantee you, they do. Especially in an employer's market, they are going to choose the LEAST controversial looking potential employees. Businesses are in business to make money. That means they cater to CUSTOMERS, not employees. And they are highly unlikely to hire someone that gives even the least hint that some customers might find them off-putting. I doubt that you would refuse to buy coffee at Starbucks because you were faced with an employee conventionally attired and coifed; but I guarantee you, however "judgmental" it may be, there are a whole lot of people who won't frequent an establishment where the employees are tattooed, pierced, and dyed in extremely unconventional ways. That means employers catering to those customers are not going to hire you, even if they have no personal qualms about your appearance and even if there's nothing formal in their hiring rules about it.

You're 25 years old. If you think you are never going to change, your taste in music, your preferences in attire, your taste in food and entertainment, the type of men you date, what kind of friends you make and keep, well, all I can say is you've got a lot of surprises waiting in store for you. We ALL have "phases" we are going through. It's called LIFE. Growth brings change. If you continue to grow, I guarantee you will change your mind about LOTS of things. Personally I'm looking forward to growing into and out of a whole LOT of phases yet as I progress through life. The ones I've already outgrown are strung behind me like pearls; I'll be making new pearls and leaving them behind my entire life. I hope you do, too, whatever you feel about the pearl you're making right now. Not growing, changing, and learning would be such dreary tedium.

I'm on my fourth or fifth career change. I started out in biology and medical research, then software engineering, retired to homestead for awhile, then medical again, more homesteading, now I'm attending a doctoral program in clinical psych. Lots of pretty pearls, but I outgrew them and moved on.

From what you've written so far here, all I can say is you seem very inflexible and rigid in your thinking. You expect the world to conform to you and accept you as you are without remark or hesitation.

It just doesn't work that way.

Obviously your choice of attire and appearance is just that, YOUR choice. But do not fool yourself into thinking that when you are on the far extreme of appearance that it will not have a negative effect on your chances of finding a job in such a bad economy. And those of us who are telling you so are not fools blinded by conformism. We're women, many of us revolutionaries in our day, and some of us revolutionaries still, who have twice or three times the experience of the real world as you do, and who are trying to share some of that hard-won knowledge with an up and coming member of the sisterhood.

Nobody is telling you you can't dress and look however you want in your free time; but work time isn't free time, it's time you're getting paid, and that gives the employer a say in what is and isn't acceptable during work hours. If the job requiring dresses and 2" heels had been my only option, I'd have taken it, worn the heels and dresses - and kept looking for something else. But I'd have taken it in the meantime and CONFORMED, externally only, because that would have ultimately served MY ends.

In a GOOD economy, you've got a lot more leeway to be revolutionary in your appearance. But in a BAD economy, you'll only be hurting yourself by presenting yourself to an employer with a "Here I am, take it or leave it" attitude. As you are finding out, they're leaving it.

I'm quoting you're whole post cuz I found it quite insightful. If you havn't figured out yet, I'm probably one of the most stubborn people on Earth. I think it's an asset honestly.

Along the lines of you being considered a "bra burner", I think what you and your coherts did during that time was great. Good for you, and I'm glad there were people like that willing to pave the way so selflessly for both their own and future generations. What is it they say - "well behaved women rarely make history".

I am definitely not a well behaved woman either. There's one thing we have in common. It's not that I'm not listening or taking you guys' advice to heart, but we have to remember that there is just not enough room on a forum to explicitly explain every reason behind every decision one makes on these things. I promise you, my reasons are well thought out and not random or childishly/naively invented in my head.

Also, I have absolutely no bias against age. By all means I do respect the advice and experience of my elders because I understand that many of you have probably been there and know how to handle it. Hence posting here in the first place. I was just pointing out a possible generation gap with one poster to whom I was responding, I never called everyone old!

In any case, the problems in the world today are probably just as big as the ones you faced. We've got globalization, extensive exploitation of various poor countries, "free trade", the WTO, FTAA, World Bank, Nafta, the EU, Possibly now an Asian union, basically an entire "new world order" to deal with at the moment. Also the usual nuclear threats and genocide, as is typical throughout history. Precisely why we SHOULD have listened to our elders to avoid the repetitions of history.

These things are not so directly accessable to each individual. It's not like we can just walk right up to a summit and ask them kindly quit being exploitative slave owners. We all saw what happened in Seattle... and more recently in London. The way to fight them is to not participate in corporate agendas that promote them, and also the usual methods of civil disobedience that we have learned from our predeccessors, you.

For this reason, I don't drink starbucks coffee (slave labor beans that they blatently lie about). I don't eat at McDonalds (Environment). I don't buy most brands of jeans, or most brands of sneakers (Sweatshops). I paid an extra hundred dollars for crappy shoes because they were union made in a third world country. I ride a bike instead of driving. Sometimes I eat out of dumpsters because we waste insane amounts of perfectly good food. And most importantly, I do not participate in the "bussiness as usual" attitude of American Capitalism.

My "look" or "style" does not just look pretty. It represents me and what I do and how I think. It promotes diversity. It promotes creativity and art, and also draws attention to the fact that not all of us have to live in this little mold of what society wants us to be. That maybe, just maybe, their is an alternative way of surviving in this world without exploiting eachother and basing our society on who you're willing to step on to get to the top, or how many of our peers we are willing to betray. Money does not grow on trees. Food does. Money is just that - it's paper. It's not love or life or family or friends or even -gasp- food and water or a roof over our heads. Money didn't grow little hands and build those things, we did. And money isn't going to change how I live my life or what I do.

Call it an attitude problem, youthful rebellion, whatever you want. I do believe everyone should contribute to society and have a trade that they are good at and compensated for in some way or another. I went to school because I want that to be my trade. I just don't happen to believe in contribution too much to THIS society because I don't think it's working properly. Tragically, I live in it and have to survive somehow.

And so, instead, I contribute to alternative possibilities where and when I can, and how I look or think is one thing I don't change for money. I'll do what I have to to survive, but because of this belief system there are limitations to that. It's just plain against my beliefs to change myself for money! I accept that this comes with an excessive amount of limitations that I put on myself, but it doesn't limit me entirely, and I feel like if we don't contribute somehow now then things are never going to change.

It feels great that no matter what, money will not change me. I know you guys are not getting it, and many of you never will, but this isn't about pink hair. It's about ethics and staying true to yourself no matter what. I do what I have to do, but I sacrifice as much as I can to help change attitudes about our world, and by god if appearance is making that a challenge then so be it.

For every 3 year old that wants a mohawk when they see mine I see another glimmer of hope, and that is far more important to me then any amount of money ever will be.

Ok, so that is why I like my hair and don't want to change it. No more hair talk pleeeeease!!!!! That is as much explanation as I can possibly give you. And good god can we please not turn this into a debate about politics, we are all entitled to our beliefs here and lets just agree to disagree and try to learn from one another. ;)

I love you guys' stories, they're really great and inspiring. I think that's actually helped me out a lot, I laugh every time I open up this forum. It makes me feel a lot better and sort of puts things in perspective. Just writing this it makes me remember why I do what I do and who I am and how great that is. Screw money - I'm alive. Thanks for the reminder, I guess I really needed that.

[Aquila]

I wish I'd had more people in my life like Zensojourner when I was lots younger, and the wisdom to listen to them with full respect. :)

I was probably slower than most folks about listening and learning from other women's wisdom, though.

[Pedal Wench]

I'm not sure why you asked for help. You've obviously thought this through thoroughly, had a plan, and are sticking with it. Go on and have a blast! Send us all a postcard;)

[greycoral]

It is definitely much harder to get those entry level type jobs nowadays. I was a restaurant server for years, things started getting slower and slower because of the economy, and I finally quit my job last November to go back to school (I'm 31). It's a great time to go to school, what about continuing your education? Not to badmouth your degree, but an associates degree these days seems to be equivalent to a high school degree a decade ago. It's like you need a bachelors degree to get your foot in the door anywhere. Well, a degree, or tons of experience, but no one will hire you without experience, of course!

I am from San Francisco, but have lived in Portland OR the last couple of years. Unemployment is definitely bad in both CA and OR. There are restaurant jobs here that get 500 resumes for one open, part-time position. It's really crazy. Even I had a hard time finding work two years ago, even with my experience in Napa and San Francisco.

I know you are frustrated, but so are a lot of unemployed people. Competition is FIERCE. My advice to you is to suck up the debt, continue your education, and with more of a degree, you'll have many more opportunities to do interships or some kind of job in the field you want to be in. I'm heavily tattooed and I know what it's like to be prejudiced against because of my appearance. I've also had to wear long sleeved shirts to cover up, and I've worked in places that don't care. I am continuing on in my education in a field that doesn't care about tattoos!

[jessica47201]

I love this thread!!!

[OakLeaf]

I don't have a lot to add because I've always been the one without the courage.

But I wanted you to know that my baby sister has lived the life you're talking about. Working as a professional musician, paying the bills as much as possible with restaurant jobs, working under the table, traveling overseas, homeless or sharing living quarters most of the time, and she too had responsibility for a cat during much of that time. About the time she turned 40 she "settled down," went to professional school, bought a house and hung out a shingle. She is my total hero. For other things too, but definitely for having the self-assurance to do whatever the heck she wants.

So I'm biased. But it CAN be done. I say go for it. You'll never have a better opportunity.

[Zen]

But it CAN be done. I say go for it. You'll never have a better opportunity.

Would you rather regret the things you did do or the things you didn't do?
life is short.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Would you rather regret the things you did do or the things you didn't do?
life is short.

It depends of what you did and didn't do.
As for me, I feel far worse when regretting some of the things the things i've done, than anything I haven't done. And life has not been short at all. Just saying for myself.

[shootingstar]

There's still a long ride ahead, and some of us are halfway up the mountain (yea!!!!) :D in years.

I just want to still enjoy its moments, become/remain strong for inclement weather at times, thank those who love me and are cheering me on, be humble enough if I'm tired I will get off bike and walk abit before climbing back on, make some new friends, help a few along the way, learn more and more, laugh before I sleep forever.

[crazycanuck]

IvonaDestroi, I want to suggest a book for your reading pleasure.

Ferrell, J, 2001. Tearing Down The Streets:Adventures in Urban Anarchy.

This response may going over the line & understand mods it perhaps should be messaged to Ivona instead?

I do want to ask you a few things in regards to selling out. Do you think Tooker Gomberg did that? What about Peter Garrett? How do you not sell out & still maintain radical thoughts? Peter Garrett's lyrics were pretty much in your face & anti establishment in many ways. You'll have to see where he is now & make up your mind

What about cycling? Are we not bowing down to greed when we purchase bikes? We're supporting a large corporation. Aren't large corporations evil?

I was involved in the environmental movement when i was in High School & supported many well known groups. I then began to turn away from them when i realized they used violence in their means. How can people on one hand want to bring about change & use aggressive tactics but still maintain acceptance?

I don't agree that destroying something in the built environment will bring about the change we want. On the other hand, I do as it's a wake up call. Then I begin to think about how much it costs in the clean up.

I am still in the process of thinking about this. I spent much of my time on the singletrack uphill climbs today thinking about this.

One more thing. A good friend of ours in NZ is a professional embroider(educated in the UK) & well respected in Australasia for her work. She looks like a skinhead but has 2 kids, married, a car & a house.

[Tuckervill]

There's still a long ride ahead, and some of us are halfway up the mountain (yea!!!!) :D in years.

I just want to still enjoy its moments, become/remain strong for inclement weather at times, thank those who love me and are cheering me on, be humble enough if I'm tired I will get off bike and walk abit before climbing back on, make some new friends, help a few along the way, learn more and more, laugh before I sleep forever.

Nicely put.

Karen

[ZenSojourner]

Let me just add a footnote to what crazycanuck has said.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's hypocrisy.

Selling out isn't about conforming a bit on the outside so you can keep body and soul together and, more important, PAY THE PEOPLE YOU OWE.

Selling out is about lying, cheating, and stealing. It's about lack of integrity. It's about selfishness.

Is your sense of self and integrity is so shallow and poorly rooted that it can be damaged by moderating your appearance so you can get a job and pay your bills? It's a shame if so.

If you want to talk about ethics, then don't try to paint the fact that you are running out on debts you ran up in good faith as if it's a great adventure of self-expression and "being true" to some higher good.

When you borrow money and then don't make a good-faith effort to pay it off, that's stealing. That's lying, because you are going back on the agreement you made when you borrowed the money. That's a lack of integrity, because you are willfully breaking the promises you made. That's selfish, because you're taking off to play when what is needed is to work and pay back the people you owe.

I think credit card companies are one of the greatest evils on the face of the planet, and I haven't had a credit card in 20 years. But the truth is that you took out those "high interest credit cards", no one forced you to take them and, more to the point, USE them. You took out those student loans, there was no corporate enforcer standing with a gun to your head forcing you to do so.

If this conversation has become about "hair color", it's because you have made it THE issue. Not us. You're the one who thinks that changing the color of your hair is somehow going to soil and dirty your soul.

In a sense, you're right. You're hair color really DOESN'T matter, in the greater scheme of things. And SINCE it doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter if you change it so you can get a job and pay your bills.

It all sounds very high-minded. But in the end it's an excuse to run out on your responsibilities. Because you are too inflexible and rigid to even consider moderating your appearance - which is, after all, even LESS than skin deep, being that it's ALL surface stuff - you are unlikely to get a job to pay the bills you ran up. Running off to Europe isn't going to change any of the societal ills you are complaining about, or do a thing to pay off any of your bills. Flying on the plane means you are partaking of the evils you blame on McDonald's and Starbucks; riding trains on your "Euro youth pass", hitching rides, you're partaking of the benefits of the society you decry; even eating food that you didn't grow yourself means you are benefiting from the evil, evil, horrible society you think the world has only recently become.

What was that? What's the definition of hypocrisy?

You don't fight evil by running away. You fight evil by starting with the small evils that we meet in every day life. You fight evil by not lying; by not cheating; by not stealing; by living up to the responsibilities you took on, by keeping your promises. Even when it's hard. Even when, horror of horrors! - it means wearing clothes you don't like.

It's not about not drinking Starbucks Coffee. It's not about not eating at McDonalds. It's not about, thank god, eating out of dumpsters from some warped sense of moral superiority.

You fight evil by resisting it in your daily life.

You don't start on a global scale; you start with your self, your own life. You start by keeping your promises.

You start with the woman in the mirror.

And if that takes actual, real sacrifice, then you make that sacrifice, such as, say, by facing your responsibilities and doing whatever it takes to get a job and pay your bills instead of taking your security deposit and going gallivanting across Europe. Talk about exploitative; you want to go on safari, LOL! And one of the MOST exploitative industries on the planet is the very fashion industry you so badly want to plug yourself into.

You know, joining the peace corps not only permits you to be of service to others - REAL service, not the lip service of withholding $5 for a double chocolate mocha latte with extra foam from Starbucks - it also puts your student loans on hold, giving you some legitimate breathing space while you figure a few things out. It gives you the opportunity to right some of those evils you talk about so blithely in the abstract, only up close and personal. It would give you some badly needed experience with the real world and the people who actually HAVE to live in it. It would give you experiences that could not only lead to personal growth, but to learning and honing skills that will be useful in a wide variety of job situations. Maybe working for an organization focused on righting some of the BIG wrongs you talk about. It might serve your soul better than becoming just another fashionista, don't you think?

All this talk about regretting things undone is silly; you're 25 years old. You have plenty of time to work, meet your responsibilities, save up, and go on safari some other time when it won't mean ducking out on your debts.

[papaver]

All this talk about regretting things undone is silly; you're 25 years old. You have plenty of time to work, meet your responsibilities, save up, and go on safari some other time when it won't mean ducking out on your debts.

http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/frech/a076.gif

[indigoiis]

You don't fight evil by running away. You fight evil by starting with the small evils that we meet in every day life. You fight evil by not lying; by not cheating; by not stealing; by living up to the responsibilities you took on, by keeping your promises. Even when it's hard. Even when, horror of horrors! - it means wearing clothes you don't like.

I see a parallel between this and learning to ride hills.

It's taken a long time (and life experience) for me to go from being a victim of society to being a member of it... in the same way that it took time (and experience) to learn how to pace myself on hills, rather than be a victim of my own blowheadedness.

I like this post!

[Pedal Wench]

http://www.cheesebuerger.de/images/midi/frech/a076.gif

Ivana - you might wonder why we're all "ganging up" on you. It's simple. We're all facing our responsibilities. We're all doing what we can to repay our debts. We're all paying for YOUR food stamps. We're all suffering more because people like you are shirking their debt and WE have to pay more because of that.

There are jobs. They're not trendy coffeeshop jobs. They're grocery stores, and bus drivers, and dry cleaners, and lawncare. But they pay.

Woman up.

[OakLeaf]

I hope some of you all who are being so hard on Ivona take a minute to remember just how confusing it was to learn that everything you knew was wrong. We all go through that, don't we? Is there any one of us over 45 who really believed we - or any other human being - would live to see the year 2000?

As we get older, most of us get a little jaded. Many of us get a LOT jaded. Some of us pretend we never learned those lessons and that everything we've always known is right. I suppose some really never learn. The rest just make a decision, conscious or unconscious, as to what we're going to ignore and what we're going to try to do something about. It's next to impossible to both (1) do no harm and (2) engage in society.

The best of us are those who can lose the confusion but keep the passion. People like my sister (both sisters, really - my middle sister chose a VERY different path from the youngest), people like Barbara Kingsolver, just to pick one famous person, people like some of the civil rights lawyers and musicians I've known.

We all have to find our own way, and the way out of confusion is not always to make a firm commitment to something you don't really believe in. (Sometimes it is, I'll grant. But definitely not always.) I don't think it's helpful for any of us to pretend that the way we've chosen for ourselves is the only way for anyone else. As far as "get a job," maybe some of you missed the story where almost 400 people just applied for one school janitor job. It's not like work is out there for the picking right at the moment. And most of the jobs that are out there don't even pay the bills.

[NbyNW]

. . . um . . . I don't think Ivona is planning to duck her debts. If I remember correctly, the first loan payment check doesn't come calling the day after gradution, does it? My understanding was that part of the purpose of the trip was to help her to figure out the next step, which likely includes a plan to pay off loans.



All this talk about regretting things undone is silly; you're 25 years old. You have plenty of time to work, meet your responsibilities, save up, and go on safari some other time when it won't mean ducking out on your debts.

Respectfully disagree. You never know when your time is going to run out. And meeting one's responsibilities does not have to be mutually exclusive to living a live without regret.

[ZenSojourner]

Sorry, Oakleaf. Living up to one's responsibilities is the hallmark of adulthood.

Who asked anyone to "make a firm commitment to something (you) don't really believe in"?

I'm pretty sure we've all chosen DIFFERENT ways, so there's no "one way, the only way" stuff going on here.

The point is that she isn't even willing to seriously try for a job, not that she hasn't got one. That she's made plans to duck out on her debts rather than plans to try to find some way to pay them and stick it out. In fact for every piece of advice she's been given for ways to make herself more marketable on the job market, or to conserve resources, she has a million excuses for why she can't (won't) do that, and why us asking her to is the moral equivalent of trying to force her into white slavery.

I've been on my own since I was 17 years old. This girl is 25 years old. She's not a child anymore, or shouldn't be.

[ZenSojourner]

. . . um . . . I don't think Ivona is planning to duck her debts. If I remember correctly, the first loan payment check doesn't come calling the day after gradution, does it?

She has 2 credit cards she's ducking out on. None of her plans address any of the loans at all. She's part way into her grace period already. The grace period is to give graduates a chance to find a job, not to go jaunting around the world. All her "plan" is going to do is guarantee that when the loans come due (and she's already I think she said 3 months behind on her credit cards) she won't have a way to pay them.

[mtbdarby]

Mmmmmm, I wonder how different my life would be today if ZenSojourner had been my mom:D Or I had been a member of TE in my 20's......

I too am enjoying this thread. I miss having people in my life with this type and diversity of wisdom. It really gets you thinking about your choices - which is a good thing in my opinion.

If I didn't have kids or furbabies I would be in the Peace Corp or Job Corp now. Great idea Zen!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Let me just add a footnote to what crazycanuck has said.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's hypocrisy.

Selling out isn't about conforming a bit on the outside so you can keep body and soul together and, more important, PAY THE PEOPLE YOU OWE.

Selling out is about lying, cheating, and stealing. It's about lack of integrity. It's about selfishness.

Is your sense of self and integrity is so shallow and poorly rooted that it can be damaged by moderating your appearance so you can get a job and pay your bills? It's a shame if so.

If you want to talk about ethics, then don't try to paint the fact that you are running out on debts you ran up in good faith as if it's a great adventure of self-expression and "being true" to some higher good.

When you borrow money and then don't make a good-faith effort to pay it off, that's stealing. That's lying, because you are going back on the agreement you made when you borrowed the money. That's a lack of integrity, because you are willfully breaking the promises you made. That's selfish, because you're taking off to play when what is needed is to work and pay back the people you owe.

I think credit card companies are one of the greatest evils on the face of the planet, and I haven't had a credit card in 20 years. But the truth is that you took out those "high interest credit cards", no one forced you to take them and, more to the point, USE them. You took out those student loans, there was no corporate enforcer standing with a gun to your head forcing you to do so.

If this conversation has become about "hair color", it's because you have made it THE issue. Not us. You're the one who thinks that changing the color of your hair is somehow going to soil and dirty your soul.

In a sense, you're right. You're hair color really DOESN'T matter, in the greater scheme of things. And SINCE it doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter if you change it so you can get a job and pay your bills.

It all sounds very high-minded. But in the end it's an excuse to run out on your responsibilities. Because you are too inflexible and rigid to even consider moderating your appearance - which is, after all, even LESS than skin deep, being that it's ALL surface stuff - you are unlikely to get a job to pay the bills you ran up. Running off to Europe isn't going to change any of the societal ills you are complaining about, or do a thing to pay off any of your bills. Flying on the plane means you are partaking of the evils you blame on McDonald's and Starbucks; riding trains on your "Euro youth pass", hitching rides, you're partaking of the benefits of the society you decry; even eating food that you didn't grow yourself means you are benefiting from the evil, evil, horrible society you think the world has only recently become.

What was that? What's the definition of hypocrisy?

You don't fight evil by running away. You fight evil by starting with the small evils that we meet in every day life. You fight evil by not lying; by not cheating; by not stealing; by living up to the responsibilities you took on, by keeping your promises. Even when it's hard. Even when, horror of horrors! - it means wearing clothes you don't like.

It's not about not drinking Starbucks Coffee. It's not about not eating at McDonalds. It's not about, thank god, eating out of dumpsters from some warped sense of moral superiority.

You fight evil by resisting it in your daily life.

You don't start on a global scale; you start with your self, your own life. You start by keeping your promises.

You start with the woman in the mirror.

And if that takes actual, real sacrifice, then you make that sacrifice, such as, say, by facing your responsibilities and doing whatever it takes to get a job and pay your bills instead of taking your security deposit and going gallivanting across Europe. Talk about exploitative; you want to go on safari, LOL! And one of the MOST exploitative industries on the planet is the very fashion industry you so badly want to plug yourself into.

You know, joining the peace corps not only permits you to be of service to others - REAL service, not the lip service of withholding $5 for a double chocolate mocha latte with extra foam from Starbucks - it also puts your student loans on hold, giving you some legitimate breathing space while you figure a few things out. It gives you the opportunity to right some of those evils you talk about so blithely in the abstract, only up close and personal. It would give you some badly needed experience with the real world and the people who actually HAVE to live in it. It would give you experiences that could not only lead to personal growth, but to learning and honing skills that will be useful in a wide variety of job situations. Maybe working for an organization focused on righting some of the BIG wrongs you talk about. It might serve your soul better than becoming just another fashionista, don't you think?

All this talk about regretting things undone is silly; you're 25 years old. You have plenty of time to work, meet your responsibilities, save up, and go on safari some other time when it won't mean ducking out on your debts.

I'm saving all you have written, for my own personal life inspiration. This whole thread was worth it just to read your posts.
You rock.

[papaver]

Yep, ZenSojourner is our TE philospher. ;)

[papaver]

I hope some of you all who are being so hard on Ivona take a minute to remember just how confusing it was to learn that everything you knew was wrong. We all go through that, don't we? Is there any one of us over 45 who really believed we - or any other human being - would live to see the year 2000?

Oh yes, I was always on a mission, had dreams I wanted to come true. And I worked hard so they did. I worked my *ss of. Seriously. I always dreamed of working in the theatre, well I did that (I even starten my own theatre company at age 24), then I wanted to work in the fashion industry, did that too. I started as someone who had to iron the new shirts and I worked my way up to the design department in two years time. Then I was ready for my next challenge: advertising. At age 29 I was already an international award winning copywriter.

There's nothing wrong with having dreams (that most people would think of as impossible), but there's something wrong with running away from responsabilities. I didn't ran away when things were tough, on the contrary. It kept me motivated.

[indigoiis]

I am reading Julia Child's biography. After Smith College, she went to NYC and then she bummed around her home town of Pasadena after her mom died, basically partying until she was 31. Then she went to DC and took a job as a clerk with the OSS (now CIA). She had two serious marriage offers - one by a man who later made a fortune with a big publishing company. Imagine how different our world would be today had Julia married that guy instead of Paul Child. We might never have gotten "The Way to Cook."

I know my path was pretty fequirky. But at 25 I was married (To the first Mr. Indy) with a brand new baby. That grows you some quick.

[shootingstar]

I might have the same bk. as you indigois by Child.

She married a government diplomat..or at least a well-paid government employee that promoted the U.S. culture overseas and that time in Europe, just after the war. Fortunately they stationed themselves in France where Julia was able to discover her love of French cuisine and learn its art of cooking. Had her hubby was stationed in Germany just the war, her fabled life wouldn't have been great, since Germany was rebuilding itself and under the oversight of the U.S.

There are still many women who are still looking subconsciously for a life partner with an healthy salary to bail them out or at least support them.

However...I'm seeing the reverse now on a totally different forum for women in their boomer years and up: women who have earned and acquired their own property assets and savings (or they have inherited as an only child) but they are now extremely careful when assessing the next guy in their life who will not fritter away their savings irresponsibly, ..so they will not be left homeless and without means to provide for themselves/herself later on in life when they/herself will need help in many ways...which will require money. Making decisions long-term for the latter, does demand self-discipline.

Frankly I'm sincerely surprised by some of the advice on staying to get a graduate degree/more education when a person already has a sizable debt to pay off. And I've never understood much how many college/university students with a large debt can still go off vacationing in Europe/Asia or go vacationing in the Carribbean, etc. during spring break. My very first trip outside of Canada (to Greece) was 4 years after I finished university and had accumulated enough savings from jobs. However prior to that, I didn't feel totally deficient of a different cultural perpsective/feeling like a hillbilly...it does help to grow up in bicultural/bilingual family environment.


If Ivona doesn't care about our opinion, that's ok. But I feel for her mother...and with Mother's Day coming up....this is the one woman who has sacrificed for Ivona from babyhood up.

As an aunt, even at my highest earning power in the past, I couldn't have given such a gift of that value (that Ivona's aunt offered) to any niece or nephew. If that's going to happen, it'll be after I'm long gone.

[PamNY]

If Ivona doesn't care about our opinion, that's ok. But I feel for her mother...and with Mother's Day coming up....this is the one woman who has sacrificed for Ivona from babyhood up.

What! You "feel for her mother"? Why? Do you know either of them IRL? Do you know anything about their relationship? And what on earth does Mother's Day have to do with anything?

Speaking of mothers, my mother always said you cannot judge what goes on in a family because you cannot know the whole truth. That goes double or triple for online interactions.

Pam

[sfa]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow. I wish I had some of the wisdom of some of the other posters! And you've gotten a lot of very good advice.

But I'm going to add my own two cents to the mix because I've BTDT with debt and unemployment, and also BTDT with traveling for a year after college. Like you, I had things set up to make that traveling do-able financially. In my case I had a grant to pursue a self-designed project for a year, and the only stipulation was that we get the heck out of the U.S. for the year. But I don't think I would have taken that grant and left if it meant screwing up my future. And in your case, while you can defer payments on student loans and eliminate most regular bills by not having phone/electric/water/rent, you can't, unfortunately, walk away from credit card debt without serious long-term repurcussions. If you ever want to get a job in the future, if you ever want to rent an apartment in your future, if you ever want to go back to school and will need another student loan to do that, if you ever want to take out a small business loan to start your own company--you need a decent credit history. Three months of non-payment isn't fatal, but it's getting there. Any more and it'll be very hard to turn around. Years from now it'll show up on your credit history and employers will hesitate to hire you, banks won't loan you money, landlords will charge you an arm and a leg for security deposits (if they'll rent to you at all). It's just not worth it.

Before you leave to travel, you need to figure out some way to get caught up with those payments and to have enough saved up to continue making the minimum payments each month while you're gone. If that means moving back in with your parents and babysitting or mowing lawns to save up the minimum payments, so be it. I'm thinking Oakland probably isn't the best place to be--you're in a place with a seriously high cost of living and competing with a lot of other highly educated and experienced people for very few jobs. Go someplace cheaper, and preferably some place with a lower unemployment rate. California has the 4th highest unemployment rate in the nation at over 11%. It may be even higher in your city. But if you go to someplace like Nebraska or North Dakota, not only do you get a lower cost of living, but you have a much better chance of finding a job (both states have unemployment rates around 4%. And these aren't the only places--there are a number of states with unemployment rates that are significantly below the national average). While you're working your unfun job to pay the bills, you can do other things that are more interesting or at least more relevant. Wedding season is starting--go to every dress shop in town and offer your services for making alterations (and that would probably pay. While you're at it, advertise those same services on Craigslist and on a flyer in the supermarket). Volunteer in the costume department of a summer theater. Sure, you might just be putting together costumes for yet another production of Music Man, but it's something you can put on your resume, which doesn't suck.

Next thing--don't get frustrated. You've only been looking for work for a short while. In a good economy, it'll often take many months to find a job. In this economy, nine months or more seems to be about average. Everyone I know who has lost a job in the past year was out of work for at least that long before finding something. It sucks, but that's the way it is right now. Travel and continuing education seem to be the popular choices among people who know they're at the bottom of the food chain in this market, so I think you're on the right track--just make sure you can make payments on those credit cards while you're gone.

And that brings me to my final point--an associate's degree is nice, but is really just considered a stepping stone these days. A two year degree is only really useful if the degree came with particular job training. I work at a community college and we divide our programs up into career programs and transfer programs. A career program would give specific job skills so a person could be hired directly into that field at the end of the degree or certificate program. A transfer program is really just two years of a four year degree. Fashion design would be considered a transfer program. At some point you should consider going back to college to get a bachelor's degree.

Good luck!

Sarah

[shootingstar]

And what on earth does Mother's Day have to do with anything?

Speaking of mothers, my mother always said you cannot judge what goes on in a family because you cannot know the whole truth. That goes double or triple for online interactions.

Pam

'course we don't know and it is not our business to know. Guess I shouldn't make the leap to Mother's Day :rolleyes:...when many of us already have given whatever opinions in this thread, as having experienced certain difficulties in life. We've been abit like at the very least, elder sisters (and dare I say, sounding abit like a mother??)

But each of us exists here, our very existence on Earth, happened somehow with a start.

[shootingstar]

Wedding season is starting--go to every dress shop in town and offer your services for making alterations (and that would probably pay. While you're at it, advertise those same services on Craigslist and on a flyer in the supermarket). Volunteer in the costume department of a summer theater. Sure, you might just be putting together costumes for yet another production of Music Man, but it's something you can put on your resume, which doesn't suck.

Considering the reality that sewing full garments and more complex things, like wedding dresses/bridesmaids and going-away dress, is becoming a lost skill, there should be more biz..but it's a matter of cracking into the social chick networks too..women/potential customers who have totally different lifestyles and dress styles.

[PamNY]

This has been a fascinating thread to follow. I wish I had some of the wisdom of some of the other posters! And you've gotten a lot of very good advice.

Sarah:

Your post contains the best advice in this thread.

Pam

[IvonaDestroi]

Let me just add a footnote to what crazycanuck has said.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's hypocrisy.

Selling out isn't about conforming a bit on the outside so you can keep body and soul together and, more important, PAY THE PEOPLE YOU OWE.

Selling out is about lying, cheating, and stealing. It's about lack of integrity. It's about selfishness.

Is your sense of self and integrity is so shallow and poorly rooted that it can be damaged by moderating your appearance so you can get a job and pay your bills? It's a shame if so.

If you want to talk about ethics, then don't try to paint the fact that you are running out on debts you ran up in good faith as if it's a great adventure of self-expression and "being true" to some higher good.

When you borrow money and then don't make a good-faith effort to pay it off, that's stealing. That's lying, because you are going back on the agreement you made when you borrowed the money. That's a lack of integrity, because you are willfully breaking the promises you made. That's selfish, because you're taking off to play when what is needed is to work and pay back the people you owe.

I think credit card companies are one of the greatest evils on the face of the planet, and I haven't had a credit card in 20 years. But the truth is that you took out those "high interest credit cards", no one forced you to take them and, more to the point, USE them. You took out those student loans, there was no corporate enforcer standing with a gun to your head forcing you to do so.

If this conversation has become about "hair color", it's because you have made it THE issue. Not us. You're the one who thinks that changing the color of your hair is somehow going to soil and dirty your soul.

In a sense, you're right. You're hair color really DOESN'T matter, in the greater scheme of things. And SINCE it doesn't matter, it shouldn't matter if you change it so you can get a job and pay your bills.

It all sounds very high-minded. But in the end it's an excuse to run out on your responsibilities. Because you are too inflexible and rigid to even consider moderating your appearance - which is, after all, even LESS than skin deep, being that it's ALL surface stuff - you are unlikely to get a job to pay the bills you ran up. Running off to Europe isn't going to change any of the societal ills you are complaining about, or do a thing to pay off any of your bills. Flying on the plane means you are partaking of the evils you blame on McDonald's and Starbucks; riding trains on your "Euro youth pass", hitching rides, you're partaking of the benefits of the society you decry; even eating food that you didn't grow yourself means you are benefiting from the evil, evil, horrible society you think the world has only recently become.

What was that? What's the definition of hypocrisy?

You don't fight evil by running away. You fight evil by starting with the small evils that we meet in every day life. You fight evil by not lying; by not cheating; by not stealing; by living up to the responsibilities you took on, by keeping your promises. Even when it's hard. Even when, horror of horrors! - it means wearing clothes you don't like.

It's not about not drinking Starbucks Coffee. It's not about not eating at McDonalds. It's not about, thank god, eating out of dumpsters from some warped sense of moral superiority.

You fight evil by resisting it in your daily life.

You don't start on a global scale; you start with your self, your own life. You start by keeping your promises.

You start with the woman in the mirror.

And if that takes actual, real sacrifice, then you make that sacrifice, such as, say, by facing your responsibilities and doing whatever it takes to get a job and pay your bills instead of taking your security deposit and going gallivanting across Europe. Talk about exploitative; you want to go on safari, LOL! And one of the MOST exploitative industries on the planet is the very fashion industry you so badly want to plug yourself into.

You know, joining the peace corps not only permits you to be of service to others - REAL service, not the lip service of withholding $5 for a double chocolate mocha latte with extra foam from Starbucks - it also puts your student loans on hold, giving you some legitimate breathing space while you figure a few things out. It gives you the opportunity to right some of those evils you talk about so blithely in the abstract, only up close and personal. It would give you some badly needed experience with the real world and the people who actually HAVE to live in it. It would give you experiences that could not only lead to personal growth, but to learning and honing skills that will be useful in a wide variety of job situations. Maybe working for an organization focused on righting some of the BIG wrongs you talk about. It might serve your soul better than becoming just another fashionista, don't you think?

All this talk about regretting things undone is silly; you're 25 years old. You have plenty of time to work, meet your responsibilities, save up, and go on safari some other time when it won't mean ducking out on your debts.

Ok, I have no idea where on earth you got that I didn't intend to pay off my debts. The whole point of saving up for a couple months includes an amount I'd set aside for credit cards (I'm looking at like $50 - $100 a month total for credit cards, and they don't have balances that are THAT high- they're not maxed out or anything). I just havn't been able to pay them lately because of the starving student syndrome and subsequent difficulties in finding work (which i am still looking very hard for). I'm doing everything I can be doing, so don't get the impression I'm ducking out. I have every intention of paying this stuff off.

With student loans they dont even start charging you for 6 months after you graduate, so I don't have to start those payments for 5 more months, and after that they said I could easily defer further if I needed to, although at that point I should at least cover the interest payments.

Hypocrasy in politics- not getting into it. I never used the word "sell out". I don't use that word and honestly I dont really believe there is such a thing.

There are many contradictions in life. An anarchist in a capitalist society still has to survive within that capitalist society. That causes many contradictions and requires much compromise. That doesn't mean their political views and beliefs have to change. You can believe whatever you want, you have that right. I have the right to believe in different things then you do. We all have that right, so like I said, lets just agree to disagree on that for now.

You can't boycott everything, but you can at least boycott some things. I try to keep 2 major food corporations on my boycott list at all times, and they change once in a while. Right now it's starbucks and mcdonalds. Something is better then nothing, is my point. I still have to stay alive in this world you know. And I'm not saying everything in this society is bad either, or that i lie cheat and steal. In fact those kinds of actions are probably just as against my ethics as they are in yours. . I honestly have no idea where you're getting all of this from.

Maybe if you pulled that stereotype that you have of me out of your head we could have a reasonable conversation... you just seem really prejudiced as if you have some knowledge of how "my kind" of people are... I'm not most of the things that you just described, and it bothers me that you would judge me right off the bat like that.

[IvonaDestroi]

What! You "feel for her mother"? Why? Do you know either of them IRL? Do you know anything about their relationship? And what on earth does Mother's Day have to do with anything?

Speaking of mothers, my mother always said you cannot judge what goes on in a family because you cannot know the whole truth. That goes double or triple for online interactions.

Pam

No kidding... some people seem to be getting a little bit self righteous on here... keep in mind that you guys don't actually know me as a person. I bet if we sat down to coffee and actully had a human interaction you guys would think a lot differently. Quit being so judgmental, it's the internet for christ's sake!

[IvonaDestroi]

one more thing-

you're all under the impression that I'm not going to pay my bills ever... I do intend on paying them, and most of this hoopla seems to be over that... so I'm just clarifying yes I do intend on paying off the credit card bills ,which are not that high to begin with, and student loans as well, which I do not have to start paying for another half a year or even a full year... (i am looking for a job, remember?)

also there is no need to bring my mother into this. Come on... seriousy?

[jessica47201]

I'm the one who threw out the "selling out" phrase. I said I could have been consider a sell out, because I NEVER thought I would have ended up in the military.

I've been in for 12 years now, and it is probably the best thing that has ever happened to me, besides my husband. I might not agree with everything that my country or government does, but I love my country and I'm willing to protect it from all enemies foreign and domestic.

[jobob]

Good grief, you asked for advice. Sometimes advice might not be to your liking.

Many women here made a genuine effort and wrote you very well-thought out posts with lots of excellent advice. Many have been in similar situations and they shared their experiences, and the hard choices they had to make, with you.

Some of that advice had to do with considering relying on parents, if at possible, ever so briefly.

Also, you never made it clear in your OP that you had any intention of paying off those bills. That's the impression I took from your OP, anyhow.

You're right, most of us don't know you, so the advice here was somewhat generic, based on the information you had provided.

Whether you take any of the advice given to you here, or don't, is entirely up to you.

[ZenSojourner]

Ok, I have no idea where on earth you got that I didn't intend to pay off my debts.

From your very first posting:


"So here I am. My 2 very high interest credit card bills have gone unpaid for 3 months. My unemployment ran out, and can not be extended. My bank account is almost empty."

Then later:


"I have a friend that did this quite regularly to England and was deported a few times back to the U.S. (free trip home?) "

in response to the suggestion that you pay some of those bills off with your security deposit instead of kiting off to Europe:


"Europe would be paid by the deposit I get back from moving out, which is just enough for a ticket. hence the 30 day notice."

Since you don't have a job I'm curious as to where you're going to save anything up to put towards this stuff. I hope you get a job, I truly, truly do, but in your subsequent postings it seemed that you were making it very clear that you intend to leave to go "on safari" just as soon as ever you may so you can get a Youth Europass before your birthday in a few months.

If you DO intend to buckle down and pay stuff off, that's great. More power to you. Wonderful. But you keep changing what you are saying so it's a little hard to keep track of your actual intentions, especially when coupled with statements about how you may not even come back from Europe.

As for the issue of who is and isn't a sellout, don't be disingenuous. You didn't use the exact term, but every time you talk about changing your appearance in order to get a job, you make it clear that you think it that if you were to give up your pink hair, it would impinge on your integrity, and that those of us who have made such compromises have compromised more than a little surface appearance. That's the definition of being a sellout. I'm not the only one who has used the term in response to your statements, so let's drop that bit of high dudgeon right now.

As for my alleged "prejudice", LOL! Do you HAVE a "kind of people"? I have never made any statement that wasn't DIRECTLY based on what you have said on this forum, which, I might add, has changed with whichever way the wind seems to be blowing. It doesn't apply to anyone else. Only you and the words coming directly out of your mouth (or keyboard I guess I should say, LOL!)

As for not wanting to get embroiled in a "political discussion of hypocrisy", you're the one who started in with the holier-than-thou posting about the evils of society, not drinking Starbuck's coffee because they support slavery, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea where that came from but it was obviously important to you since you went on about it at some length.

However, when I'm talking about hypocrisy, it has not a thing to do with politics and everything to do with your continued insistence that appearance IS integrity (and no wonder then that you are going into the very shallow and self-focused fashion industry). You give us a long posting about how wonderful the opportunity is to go traveling, and I would agree with that - if it weren't for your previous statements about not paying your bills, not having any money to pay your bills, and using what cash in hand you're about to receive to go to Europe rather than paying your bills with it.

Throwing up strawmen and making ad hominem attacks (about us being too conservative; making condescending remarks about how we remind you of your fuddy-duddy mother who thinks you're going through a phase; calling me a bigot; etc etc etc) isn't going to change anything that's gone on here.

For example:



"well, you know, your generation probably had much more conservative attitudes then my own. For you, this type of thing is probably considered an extremity of some sort, a youthful and unrealistic phase in life that one will eventually "snap out of".

You have to understand that as time goes on, things that were previously considered exotic quickly become socially acceptable. You remind me so much of my mother, with the idea that that it's just a childish rebellious attitude to grow out of. 10 years later it's still 'just a phase'..."

Can't help it, I think it's REALLY funny that you're telling some of US what happens when time goes on, LOL! On top of that there are a lot of people involved in this discussion who, if they weren't exactly instrumental in developing the punk movement, at least grew up with it. The fact is that it IS an extreme of appearance, just as Amish dress and comportment is an extreme at the opposite end of the spectrum. One's not better than the other, nor worse either; but being extremes, there are consequences to adopting either one.

You posted looking for sympathy, and believe it or not, you got it, in spades. But you need to take at least some of the advice you've been given about how to dig yourself out of the mess you're in. You asked for it, after all. But then you blew it all off. And these women don't deserve to be blown off.

Again, if you ACTUALLY have a workable plan to pay those bills before you go, that's great. You didn't communicate that to us, quite the opposite in fact. If you've got $100 a month in credit card payments to make, and you're 3 months behind; if you're going to be gone for 5 or 6 months; we're talking on the order of $1000 for credit card payments alone. In the absence of a job, I'm wondering where that's going to come from.

I hope things work out for you, I truly do. All I can say is that they're more likely to work out if you WORK at MAKING them work out. Maybe you're doing that, but that's not what you've communicated. What you've communicated is that you're behind on your bills, you have no income, you have no job prospects, you have no interest in doing anything to increase the chance of getting a job, you're going to use the only cash in sight to run off to Europe, you don't want to wait to go because you want to get out there before your birthday so you'll still qualify for a cheap train ticket, you only need a one way ticket because you're assuming you can get deported home, but that doesn't matter that much because who knows, maybe you won't even come back to the US at all.

It's not prejudice or judgmentalism that is behind the comments you've been getting. It's your own words.

[Jones]

If you can't pay your credit cards, even short term you should call the company's and tell them. Some times they will give you a break with late fees and such.
You really can't claim you are doing all that you can do to find a job if you refuse to change your hair color. There are many places that will not hire people with "unnatural" hair color, even in the bay area and they may never tell you that is the reason they didn't hire you.
Good luck on the job hunt I hope you find something soon.
Jones

[fastdogs]

wow, zensojourner, great post. I started to reply a few times, but you all are doing great with advice, whether it's wanted or not.
I know from a later post that the OP isn't really needing a job (going to europe), but if I were hiring and there were two applicants- one dressed like she had a chip on her shoulder and one dressed like she wanted a job, I guess I'd hire the person who made an effort to get ready for a job interview.
I've never worn the clothes I interviewed in since, but you better believe I wanted to look just as professional as the other people interviewing, even if it's for a job where we'll wear scrubs most of the time.
I hope you get over the idea that your whole "self" is based on how you look. I won't tell my sister, so proud of her thick auburn hair, that she's somehow not true to herself since the chemo.
vickie

[redrhodie]

I think the thing that seems to have been lost is this thread is the main problem--there are no jobs. The crummy, low level, unskilled ones that students have always counted on for a paycheck are all filled. I might add, the better paying, skilled, white collar ones are disappearing, too.

Being in the arts, I have many friends who are being hit really hard. I'm thanking my lucky stars to still have work right now. One of my friends, who is a college professor, and has work in museums, is trying to get a job at a grocery store. Her husband's company has laid off 75% of its workers. It's unlikely he'll be employed much longer. They have a baby. They need health insurance, which she doesn't get working part time.

Ivana, I'm glad you see your options. You will get through this.

[Tuckervill]

I hope some of you all who are being so hard on Ivona take a minute to remember just how confusing it was to learn that everything you knew was wrong. We all go through that, don't we?

Yeah, and there were 27 older people standing around snickering, shaking their heads, and telling me how stupid I was, too! :D

Karen

[Tuckervill]

I think the thing that seems to have been lost is this thread is the main problem--there are no jobs. The crummy, low level, unskilled ones that students have always counted on for a paycheck are all filled. I might add, the better paying, skilled, white collar ones are disappearing, too.

I just checked the San Francisco Chronicle's website and there are 1,489 jobs currently listed. I didn't look at them all, so I can't judge their quality. However, it's just not true that there are NO JOBS.

11% unemployment means 89% of people are employed. (Not really, though, because that number is derived from weekly jobless claims, and some people do end up falling off the rolls because their benefits run out, and they are still unemployed.)

I worked for the Employment Security Division in Arkansas for a few years, and my mother retired from there after 20. The recession of the early '80s had worse unemployment than now, and that's when I was 18-20, and there were still jobs in every category--for the right candidates, and that's what all of this hoopla is about.

Karen

[ZenSojourner]

Seriously, no one is laughing here.

When I think of this young woman, or ANY person, becoming homeless, I just cringe.

She still has that belief in her own immortality and that makes me worry even more.

Homeless people are more likely to be the victims of crime, particularly of violent crime. Homeless women are 1250 times more likely to be raped. .0056% incidence of rape among the general population rising to 7% among the homeless. Keep in mind that those are REPORTED rates. Many rapes go unreported among the general population, and report rates are even lower among the homeless.

22% of homeless have been assaulted, compared to less than .5% of the general population for ALL violent crimes, not just assault.

Crimes against the homeless have risen 170% from 2005 to 2008. Violent crimes in particular have increased drastically, most of that increase is due to the increase in violent crime. In bad times, bad people look for scapegoats, and homeless are an obvious target. They're considered throw-away people in general. They're weak, they're vulnerable, they have nowhere to turn when they are victimized. People don't see them if they can help it. When people are invisible, crimes committed against them are invisible too. The more outlandish the appearance or behaviour, the more likely someone is to be targeted. The OP may have managed on the streets in the past, but things are much much more dangerous now.

Our economy is in the crapper and things are going to look like they're getting worse before they get better. I say "look like they're getting worse" because we've had 8 years of official government policy that downplayed, minimized, and outright hid the state of our economy, coupled with out-of-control spending for war without accountability or oversight. The amount that has been spent on the Iraq war far outstrips anything even the most liberal government would ever have considered spending on health and education. 10 to 20 billion was just LOST, they have no idea where it went. That's right, there's TEN BILLION in slop in that figure, that's how bad the accounting was for the tons of cash that was shipped to Iraq, some of which happy recipients took away by the helicopter load.

It has been official government policy to downplay the jobless rates since the recession of the Reagan years, when they stopped counting people as unemployed once their unemployment benefits ran out. Things are even worse since underemployment has become a major issue. Actual jobless rates are AT LEAST double the rates reported by government agencies.

From http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=apllk4murp0I#

"The long-term unemployed, those who have been out of a job for more than six months, constitute 24.2 percent of the unemployed, the largest share during a recession since the Labor Department began recording data in 1948."

Unemployment rates in some European countries are topping 40%. Unemployment is up all around the globe, even in developed countries.

Things are bad now. They're only going to be worse in 5 or 6 months - remember that unemployment lags the economy by up to a year.

So running off now is only going to guarantee MORE problems later, not fewer.

As has been pointed out, CA unemployment rates are among the highest in the nation. The cost of living in the Bay area and CA in general is just astronomical. It makes far better sense for the OP to use her "punk network" contacts and the money from her security deposit to relocate. I'm sure her aunt will hold that safari for later, and if she misses her last bit of eligibility for a youth Europass, oh well. If she can manage to land a job and hold it she'll be in a better position to pay for things later.

The point being that NOW rather than later is the time to get a job, save as much as possible (which you don't get by paying $100 more for union-made shoes made in the 3rd world - when you can get union-made shoes made in the US for under $50 - http://www.buyamericanmart.com/wosomo.html).

A stint in the Peace Corp would give you a job, living expenses, relief from student loans, AND the best kind of cultural and travel opportunity - living WITH the people you are working to help.

Moving elsewhere within the US (and making the necessary modifications to your appearance - heck, wear a wig to make yourself more presentable and less extreme in your appearance, then you can keep the pink hair for off hours) is another very viable option.

People have listed LOTS of options here. Of all the suggestions made thus far, your plan - to travel to Europe on a one way ticket, which is frankly unlikely to even be possible with more countries clamping down on immigration, every one I know of requires a ROUND TRIP ticket as evidence that you aren't planning to stay - is the least likely to result in a good outcome for you.

I hope things start looking up for you soon.

[ZenSojourner]

BTW, for anyone who is interested:

http://www.peacecorps.gov/

I'm going. I'm not sure when, but I'm going. I had planned to go out of college but my ex was against it. Then I had a kid to raise, then I was in grad school, now I'm caring for an elderly parent and I'm STILL in grad school.

But eventually all that will clear away and I'm going.

[indigoiis]

The job market does suck right now.
Which makes it all the more important for anyone without a job to network, get their face out there, shake some hands, show their stuff.

Creative self marketing.
If it means a trip to develop the self some more, then go for it. Just make sure you keep a blog and send that blog address out to each and every contact on your potential employer list, so that they can check it out and see what you're up to when you're traveling.

[tulip]

Peace Corps: I'm fairly certain that PC folks require at least a Bachelor degree, often a Master's. Great idea if you meet those requirements, but it's also a rather long process

Farm work is a possibility, especially with the spring season. As someone else mentioned, lots of people are getting their clothes repaired instead of buying new, so you could start taking in that kind of work (I assume you sew well given your field). That would keep you in your field and keep your skills sharp.

As a dual US-EU citizen, I would advise you to get your Polish citizenship question answered definitively before you leave (if you leave). You'll need to gather up some paperwork, and that can take some time. Passports take a long time to get, and if you know anything about the EU system, there can be lots of bureaucratic hurdles to jump over. There might even be a language competency component (there was for me), so you might need to bone up on your Polish if it's rusty.

Best of luck, Ivona.

[sfa]

Peace Corps: I'm fairly certain that PC folks require at least a Bachelor degree, often a Master's. Great idea if you meet those requirements, but it's also a rather long process



A bachelors degree or masters degree will help, but isn't necessarily required. A lot depends on what your skills are and what the Peace Corps needs. These days they are looking for a lot of people with experience or skills in engineering, agriculture, construction, health care and other similar fields.

But there are a lot of other "corps" out there looking for volunteers--Americorps, Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Lutheran Volunteer Corps, etc. They all have different requirements, but most are significantly less difficult to get into than the Peace Corps, and all will give volunteers some good skills for almost any career.

[Trek420]

But there are a lot of other "corps" out there looking for volunteers--Americorps, Jesuit Volunteer Corps, Lutheran Volunteer Corps, etc. They all have different requirements, but most are significantly less difficult to get into than the Peace Corps, and all will give volunteers some good skills for almost any career.

Looking for work? New on the job market? Need work experience but also need a break from school? Take a volunteer vacation, just a few examples:

http://www.sierraclub.org/outings/national/service.asp

http://www.charityguide.org/volunteer/vacations.htm

http://www.wta.org/volunteer/vacations

[IvonaDestroi]

Good grief, you asked for advice. Sometimes advice might not be to your liking.

Many women here made a genuine effort and wrote you very well-thought out posts with lots of excellent advice. Many have been in similar situations and they shared their experiences, and the hard choices they had to make, with you.

Some of that advice had to do with considering relying on parents, if at possible, ever so briefly.

Also, you never made it clear in your OP that you had any intention of paying off those bills. That's the impression I took from your OP, anyhow.

You're right, most of us don't know you, so the advice here was somewhat generic, based on the information you had provided.

Whether you take any of the advice given to you here, or don't, is entirely up to you.

you're right, and i have gotten some good very advice out of it... however the viciousness is really not helpful to any of us! There's no need to be rude!

Thank you to those of you who spent so much time typing up good advice and inspiring stories (without batting me down like a mosquito), it's so very appreciated. I've actually thought about quite a few of those things a lot lately, and it really does help!

[IvonaDestroi]

The job market does suck right now.
Which makes it all the more important for anyone without a job to network, get their face out there, shake some hands, show their stuff.

Creative self marketing.
If it means a trip to develop the self some more, then go for it. Just make sure you keep a blog and send that blog address out to each and every contact on your potential employer list, so that they can check it out and see what you're up to when you're traveling.

Wow, you know that's a really great idea. I just might do that... thanks!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

you're right, and i have gotten some good very advice out of it... however the viciousness is really not helpful to any of us! There's no need to be rude!


No one has been vicious or rude as far as I can see.
We've been assertive and frank about clarifying in no uncertain terms exactly what we are and who we aren't and how we got here, in an attempt to show you how we dealt with similar hardships in our own lives. Exasperation, assertiveness, maybe, but I have not seen rudeness or viciousness. Everyone has remained civil when making their points, you included. :)

[IvonaDestroi]

From your very first posting:


Then later:


in response to the suggestion that you pay some of those bills off with your security deposit instead of kiting off to Europe:


Since you don't have a job I'm curious as to where you're going to save anything up to put towards this stuff. I hope you get a job, I truly, truly do, but in your subsequent postings it seemed that you were making it very clear that you intend to leave to go "on safari" just as soon as ever you may so you can get a Youth Europass before your birthday in a few months.

If you DO intend to buckle down and pay stuff off, that's great. More power to you. Wonderful. But you keep changing what you are saying so it's a little hard to keep track of your actual intentions, especially when coupled with statements about how you may not even come back from Europe.

As for the issue of who is and isn't a sellout, don't be disingenuous. You didn't use the exact term, but every time you talk about changing your appearance in order to get a job, you make it clear that you think it that if you were to give up your pink hair, it would impinge on your integrity, and that those of us who have made such compromises have compromised more than a little surface appearance. That's the definition of being a sellout. I'm not the only one who has used the term in response to your statements, so let's drop that bit of high dudgeon right now.

As for my alleged "prejudice", LOL! Do you HAVE a "kind of people"? I have never made any statement that wasn't DIRECTLY based on what you have said on this forum, which, I might add, has changed with whichever way the wind seems to be blowing. It doesn't apply to anyone else. Only you and the words coming directly out of your mouth (or keyboard I guess I should say, LOL!)

As for not wanting to get embroiled in a "political discussion of hypocrisy", you're the one who started in with the holier-than-thou posting about the evils of society, not drinking Starbuck's coffee because they support slavery, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea where that came from but it was obviously important to you since you went on about it at some length.

However, when I'm talking about hypocrisy, it has not a thing to do with politics and everything to do with your continued insistence that appearance IS integrity (and no wonder then that you are going into the very shallow and self-focused fashion industry). You give us a long posting about how wonderful the opportunity is to go traveling, and I would agree with that - if it weren't for your previous statements about not paying your bills, not having any money to pay your bills, and using what cash in hand you're about to receive to go to Europe rather than paying your bills with it.

Throwing up strawmen and making ad hominem attacks (about us being too conservative; making condescending remarks about how we remind you of your fuddy-duddy mother who thinks you're going through a phase; calling me a bigot; etc etc etc) isn't going to change anything that's gone on here.

For example:



Can't help it, I think it's REALLY funny that you're telling some of US what happens when time goes on, LOL! On top of that there are a lot of people involved in this discussion who, if they weren't exactly instrumental in developing the punk movement, at least grew up with it. The fact is that it IS an extreme of appearance, just as Amish dress and comportment is an extreme at the opposite end of the spectrum. One's not better than the other, nor worse either; but being extremes, there are consequences to adopting either one.

You posted looking for sympathy, and believe it or not, you got it, in spades. But you need to take at least some of the advice you've been given about how to dig yourself out of the mess you're in. You asked for it, after all. But then you blew it all off. And these women don't deserve to be blown off.

Again, if you ACTUALLY have a workable plan to pay those bills before you go, that's great. You didn't communicate that to us, quite the opposite in fact. If you've got $100 a month in credit card payments to make, and you're 3 months behind; if you're going to be gone for 5 or 6 months; we're talking on the order of $1000 for credit card payments alone. In the absence of a job, I'm wondering where that's going to come from.

I hope things work out for you, I truly do. All I can say is that they're more likely to work out if you WORK at MAKING them work out. Maybe you're doing that, but that's not what you've communicated. What you've communicated is that you're behind on your bills, you have no income, you have no job prospects, you have no interest in doing anything to increase the chance of getting a job, you're going to use the only cash in sight to run off to Europe, you don't want to wait to go because you want to get out there before your birthday so you'll still qualify for a cheap train ticket, you only need a one way ticket because you're assuming you can get deported home, but that doesn't matter that much because who knows, maybe you won't even come back to the US at all.

It's not prejudice or judgmentalism that is behind the comments you've been getting. It's your own words.

Ok, I see the confusion here. The bill thing - I couldn't pay them because I needed food at that time initially. That does not mean that I do not intend to pay them when I can. Guess what? If you're in another country, theres a thing called a bank account that makes it possible to pay off bills even if you're not there!

The point of looking for work is saving up for this trip, part of saving up includes an amount set aside for at least 4-5 months of bills. When I get a job, I will put money into a "saving up for europoe" account, and part of that will pay the bills while I'm gone. Right now my first paycheck will be enough to get me all caught up on those, and since I won't have rent to pay, that is exactly where the entire thing will go. Then I can use the next check for saving up more for bills, and that check will probably cover the next few months of bills, my payments shouldn't bee too high after I'm caught up.

Only after that does saving up ticket funding/spending money come into play. I'm getting super cheap tickets thanks to my aunt, so I don't need more then a couple months to save up enough. 5 months is plenty of time, if I can get work soon. Make sense now?


Politics and hypocrasy again- i'm keeping this short because I'm really tired of talking about it and it's sort of irrelevant. I explained the starbucks thing because I was trying to explain how this is all one, big, giant lifestyle that I've had since I was a kid. I was trying to give you a background on why my hair was important - because it's part of that giant lifestyle. That was the only reason I put it in there, because it's hard to explain without you guys knowing what goes on behind all of that.

you can use the term sell out all you want, that is your perception of how you think things like this work. I don't use that word and never did.

I know you think the fashion industry is shallow. Believe me, you should have seen some of my classmates!!! I'm not going for the Gucci side. I'm going for things along the lines of Blackspot shoes, No Sweat apparel, and Global Exchange.

At what point did I use the term "bigot"? I did not. Please stop quoting things that I never said.

You can quote my exact words, and you will notice that many things you are saying are conclusions you drew from what I said, not the original statements. I also never called my mother fuddy duddy... Are you kidding?! My mother rocks so let's stop with bringing her into this and calling her names.

ok, enough with the negative... can we stop this now it's getting ridiculous. I didn't come on her to argue. Just because I don't agree with everything you say does not mean I'm not listening or thinking about it.

You have made a few really good points that are probably right, but it's hard to talk with you when you keep putting words in my mouth and using your conclusions as if they were my statements. Take a deep breath, all you are doing right now is putting me on the defense. Does that make you feel better? I certainly don't feel better when I walk away from this thread now, do you?

people read what you say and think that is what I said to you. It's not, and they are getting a completely wrong impression. You are using your conclusions from my statements as fact, when really that's never what I said at all.

If you would please stop doing that I would appreciate it. I do want to talk to you and I do respect your experience. But not if you're going to act like this then that makes it impossible.

Whew! ok enough of that, alright? Now then, I agree with you on the following points:


I should have been more specific on the bills thing.

you do have to MAKE things happen. Which is exactly what I am trying to do here.

Amish and Punk are both extreme and niether is better then the other. In fact, if you think about it, Amish people are almost like anarchists. Minus the religion, that is. I think we could learn a lot from them and how they live their lives. Because both are at extremes, they do have consequences. As I've said before, I'm willing to accept those consequences.

What I am dealing with here is a result of those consequences at a minumum, because the look is really not what bothers employers out here. Like I said, the customer base for many places I've applied includes people with wierd hair and tattoos (extremely common here), so it can actually be an asset to identify with that customer base as an employee.

I don't think it's hindering me quite as much as you think it is. And even though there is a small minority of places that wouldn't hire me based on that, I am willing to accept that as a resulting consequence of my lifestyle.

So the problem here, in a way, includes a minute portion of my lifestyle and a very large portion of places not hiring or having tons of applicants for what few positions are available. Changing my hair won't make a huge difference, I'm applying at coffee shops, tattoo parlors, bike shops, etc... where many employees look a lot like me.

OMG theres a mouse on my floor... Where are those cats when you need them!

Anyways. So let me re-communicate the many misunderstandings here:

I am losing my place next month. That's ok, because I am looking for a job in order to save up some money for Europe (this savings includes bills I'm behind on and future payments on them), and I can save much faster without paying rent. I have quite a few resources here in terms of places to stay in the mean time (Lots of squats, punk houses, etc... ). I'm doing my best to rehome the second cat, and won't let him go to a shelter. And, most importantly, I am aggressively looking for a job to get the ball rolling on all of this.

Alrighty then, I hope this resolved some of the many issues we're having here. I hope that from here on in we can be a little less aggressive and judgemental on both of our parts, ok? ;)

[lph]

You know what? I think you sound pretty dang impressive, Ivona. Best of luck to you.

[ZenSojourner]

At what point did I use the term "bigot"? I did not. Please stop quoting things that I never said.



Maybe if you pulled that stereotype that you have of me out of your head we could have a reasonable conversation... you just seem really prejudiced as if you have some knowledge of how "my kind" of people are...

Bigot is the word for someone who is prejudiced and judgmental. I'm not going to go back and pull the exact quotes, but the whole sellout thing is also warranted, given that it's a synonym for the words/phrases that you DID use. C'mon, you strike me as being pretty intelligent - you know where those words are coming from.

I'm glad you seem to have more of a plan than you at first communicated to us. I still think you are FAR underestimating the effects of your appearance on your ability to get a job, but you'll either find that out for yourself, or you'll find a job. I'm not so wedded to the notion of being right that the latter eventuality doesn't hold FAR more appeal, LOL!

I'm seriously worried about you being homeless and "squatting" on the street and I surely hope that doesn't last long. Homeless issues are something I've been very aware of since the mid-80's and it just keeps getting worse. Even the best of friends will only put you up for so long. I really do hope you find something before feelings of hospitality run out. I've been homeless too, when I was younger than you are now, and it's a dangerous thing. Sometimes people you THINK are your friends will show their true colors when you're down and out and try to take advantage. Just be alert. Hopefully you won't be faced with that sort of betrayal, but be aware of the possibility.

We all wish you the best, whatever else you may think. Best of luck.

[IvonaDestroi]

Bigot is the word for someone who is prejudiced and judgmental. I'm not going to go back and pull the exact quotes, but the whole sellout thing is also warranted, given that it's a synonym for the words/phrases that you DID use. C'mon, you strike me as being pretty intelligent - you know where those words are coming from.

I'm glad you seem to have more of a plan than you at first communicated to us. I still think you are FAR underestimating the effects of your appearance on your ability to get a job, but you'll either find that out for yourself, or you'll find a job. I'm not so wedded to the notion of being right that the latter eventuality doesn't hold FAR more appeal, LOL!

I'm seriously worried about you being homeless and "squatting" on the street and I surely hope that doesn't last long. Homeless issues are something I've been very aware of since the mid-80's and it just keeps getting worse. Even the best of friends will only put you up for so long. I really do hope you find something before feelings of hospitality run out. I've been homeless too, when I was younger than you are now, and it's a dangerous thing. Sometimes people you THINK are your friends will show their true colors when you're down and out and try to take advantage. Just be alert. Hopefully you won't be faced with that sort of betrayal, but be aware of the possibility.

We all wish you the best, whatever else you may think. Best of luck.

yea, you know it's not as nice as having your own place but I guess I'd consider it more like being houseless then homeless. One of my best friends right down the street is always down for letting people stay there, he's had a ton of people come and go for both long and short term stints. Luckily for me, he can't stand being by himself so he's always happy to have people over (what I'm more worried about is the constant large groups of people/parties all the time!)

Theres also quite a few community warehouse/venue types of places where I can always crash as well, and also a few friends' houses for a once in awhile thing. So I don't think I'll really have to squat so much, although I do know of a couple places just in case.

Before I moved here I lived in a van for 2 years travelling, so I'm pretty experienced with dealing with the shady side of things. My internal alarm signal seems to work very well. I've been in some scary situations before but I always found a way to get out of them safely. The most important thing is listening to your instinct, which I am exceptioinally good at, so I'm not too worried. I feel like I know how to handle it if I have too.

Amusingly, both my roomates have decided to jump on the houseless train and save up some cash of their own! Apparently it is that bad economically..., A lot of people I know are moving out right now, so, well, at least I'm not alone :rolleyes:

[jobob]

I wish you all the best, Ivona. Sincerely. :)

[Bluetree]

Ivona, let me give you some advice, if I may... I have been in a similar situation as you have. Well, not the houseless part, but the professional/arts/music part.

Deciding a profession in the arts (or any creative field) is a difficult thing. When it comes to your desire to work as a fashion designer, you have to be committed. How much do you want it? You want it bad? Well, guess what... someone is around the corner who is even hungrier for it than you are. You are a situation where there are thousands like you, many whom have more talent, resources, education, connections, charisma and yes, even luck.

But the good news is, in some ways, you make your own luck. You do it by working harder and being tougher skinned than those around you. You do it by deliberately placing yourself in the way of opportunities and opening your mind to possibilities, even if they do not fall in line with your preconceptions.

This is what I did when I was in school and looking for a way to build a reputation: I did stuff for free... lots of stuff... for years.... ***sigh ***
Since I was in a creative-type world (academically and socially) I gravitated towards those with other kinds of talents (those who were as poor as I was) and tried to help them as much as possible. I designed flyers for free, I designed tattoos, I roadied for bands, I put them up on my floor, I did gruntwork for alternative weeklies and freebies, I made friends with musicians, artists, actors, the like. I never asked anything in return from them except the experience I was gaining.

But a remarkable thing happened over the years. Those dirt poor creative-types matured, got jobs and started climbing up the ladder. And when they needed album covers, portfolios, portraits, advertising, etc. they called me. As luck would have it, some of those bands who slept on my floor and played at my birthday parties are now headlining stadiums. That snotnosed college radio kid now has a nationwide show on ESPN. And that young night-school law student now is a partner in a firm and can afford my $10k paintings. It didn’t happen overnight, but it did come together after years of hard work in obscurity.

You may not have a job in your field right now, but that does not mean you can’t be working at it (you’re just not getting a paycheck). If I were you, I’d find those punk bands –*or any kind of alternative musician – and offer to make clothes for them. Not just one or two, but as many as you can. Find those with the talent and drive to be more than a back-yard hero and ask for nothing in return except a promise that they will promote you and your name. Ask them to mention your name on stage, or on their website or on their albums. It's a good tradeoff. Build a reputation and start marketing yourself.

You do not need to invest in the finest materials. I recently saw a show called RuPaul’s Drag Race where contestants vying for the title “Next Drag Queen Superstar” had to make drag outfits out of homely, thrift store castoffs. A few of the contestants showed their savvy and resourcefulness by making some truly spectacular pieces.

It may not work, but you’ll never know if you don’t try. If your designs are good enough, unique enough, people will notice. The cream always rises.

Good luck.




BTW... You might have read Sun Tzu’s Art of War (an ancient military treatise whose competitive strategies as well know in the business world). Well, there is also a book called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. His publisher says he “lays out the day-by-day, step-by-step campaign of the professional: preparation, order, patience, endurance, acting in the face of fear and failure-no excuses, no b*llsh*t.” I highly recommend it.

[VeloVT]

Hmmm... somebody mentioned Americorps... Americorps doesn't pay very well (from what I've seen, a stipend that is hardly livable, if livable at all -- however, they do provide an education grant at the end, that you could certainly apply to further education and maybe (I don't know, you'd have to check it out) apply to education loans. Anyway, something to think about. I'd love to do Americorps actually, I think it's a great program -- the pay seems a bit of an issue to me, but I think it varies from place to place, and in some areas it might be better. I think it would be incredibly rewarding and interesting.

[PamNY]

Bluetree, what a great story you have to tell. To my mind, that's exactly the kind of information that would be useful to a young person (or any person!).

Pam

[papaver]

Ivona, let me give you some advice, if I may... I have been in a similar situation as you have. Well, not the houseless part, but the professional/arts/music part.

Deciding a profession in the arts (or any creative field) is a difficult thing. When it comes to your desire to work as a fashion designer, you have to be committed. How much do you want it? You want it bad? Well, guess what... someone is around the corner who is even hungrier for it than you are. You are a situation where there are thousands like you, many whom have more talent, resources, education, connections, charisma and yes, even luck.

But the good news is, in some ways, you make your own luck. You do it by working harder and being tougher skinned than those around you. You do it by deliberately placing yourself in the way of opportunities and opening your mind to possibilities, even if they do not fall in line with your preconceptions.

This is what I did when I was in school and looking for a way to build a reputation: I did stuff for free... lots of stuff... for years.... ***sigh ***
Since I was in a creative-type world (academically and socially) I gravitated towards those with other kinds of talents (those who were as poor as I was) and tried to help them as much as possible. I designed flyers for free, I designed tattoos, I roadied for bands, I put them up on my floor, I did gruntwork for alternative weeklies and freebies, I made friends with musicians, artists, actors, the like. I never asked anything in return from them except the experience I was gaining.

But a remarkable thing happened over the years. Those dirt poor creative-types matured, got jobs and started climbing up the ladder. And when they needed album covers, portfolios, portraits, advertising, etc. they called me. As luck would have it, some of those bands who slept on my floor and played at my birthday parties are now headlining stadiums. That snotnosed college radio kid now has a nationwide show on ESPN. And that young night-school law student now is a partner in a firm and can afford my $10k paintings. It didn’t happen overnight, but it did come together after years of hard work in obscurity.

You may not have a job in your field right now, but that does not mean you can’t be working at it (you’re just not getting a paycheck). If I were you, I’d find those punk bands –*or any kind of alternative musician – and offer to make clothes for them. Not just one or two, but as many as you can. Find those with the talent and drive to be more than a back-yard hero and ask for nothing in return except a promise that they will promote you and your name. Ask them to mention your name on stage, or on their website or on their albums. It's a good tradeoff. Build a reputation and start marketing yourself.

You do not need to invest in the finest materials. I recently saw a show called RuPaul’s Drag Race where contestants vying for the title “Next Drag Queen Superstar” had to make drag outfits out of homely, thrift store castoffs. A few of the contestants showed their savvy and resourcefulness by making some truly spectacular pieces.

It may not work, but you’ll never know if you don’t try. If your designs are good enough, unique enough, people will notice. The cream always rises.

Good luck.




BTW... You might have read Sun Tzu’s Art of War (an ancient military treatise whose competitive strategies as well know in the business world). Well, there is also a book called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. His publisher says he “lays out the day-by-day, step-by-step campaign of the professional: preparation, order, patience, endurance, acting in the face of fear and failure-no excuses, no b*llsh*t.” I highly recommend it.

I just love this post!

[crazycanuck]

Idis-I thought of you last night when we were at a popular upmarket restaurant/club as the gent behind the bar had a mohawk. Nice appearance & added some funkyness to the place. A female worker had tatts but didn't cover her arms with a full length shirt.

Just a thought should you ever wander the world even further than you're planning to.:)

[Trek420]

Ivana, I'm employed and dealing with unemployment. I'm trying to transfer from my current job to another job in the same company. It's virtually the same job in the same company.

There is no transfer process for this particular move. :mad:

HR that I work with on this ranges from clueless to refusal to think outside the box to fearful of doing anything creative to downright putting roadblocks in my way.

But I will achieve my goal or ... take my skills elsewhere. :cool:

HR departments including my own are like kids in the candy store now. With so many out of work it's a "buyers market". They may feel "Oooh, this one's got an AA oooh this one has a Masters, that one is ..." Find a way to differentiate yourself, stand out from the crowd on skills and experience.

OTOH having a job hinders me right now. In a normal job market the best time to look for a job is while you have a job :p. But I think empathetic HR specialists are thinking "I can get people to work. I like to make that call "congratulations, you are HIRED! :D This one HAS a job."

Lastly I'm not necessarily recommending a call center enviornment but I work in one for oh I think about one of the top 10 or so largest companies in the world. And by the way it's likely I'm waaay further to the left of you and been so for a loooooooooong time, like from before you were born :cool: You would not know it to look at me but you're likely center progressive at best compared to me.

When you call us you don't know what we're wearing and you sure don't know my politics. Some of us dress to the nine's, others wears sweats to work. I'm normally in jeans and t'shirt and my current podmate is covered head to toe in tats.

She's starting her own clothing company along with a couple of friends :). The idea for the product line literally started over a joke and a pun and a drawing scribbled on a napkin over lunch in the break rooom.

One of the owners of this line sits next to me and I believe any day now she'll quit and run this full time along with a couple of bands and musicians she manages.

http://www.pgapparel.com