When the lowest gear isn't low enough

[marfa]

Hi all

When I've recently been training on hills and I need to change down I gear, I often find that my fellow riders have a lower gear on their bikes, so that they are able to keep spinning. Mine on the other hand doesn't seem to go low enough so I'm still struggling to get up the hill.

Is it just that I'm not trying hard enough?

:)

[Biciclista]

I'm certain you are trying hard enough. Are you certain that you are in your lowest gear? If you are, it could be a combination of your bike not having those super low gears and you not being strong enough yet. Keep trying and you will eventually be strong enough to go up any hill that challenges you.

[malaholic]

Different bikes have different gear ranges based on the number of discs they have in the front & back, and the number of teeth on each disc. The lowest gear on your friend's bikes may in fact be lower than the lowest gear on yours , and if so it will be easier for them to spin in a lower gear than it is for you in a higher gear.

But, +1 to what Biciclista said...keep riding the hills in the closest-to-comfortable gear you can find; gradually as you get stronger you can try longer and/or steeper hills. This will serve as a good form of interval training and you may find that in the end it makes you climb more strongly than your friends who are having an easier time right now. That happens for me each year...my bike is geared higher than my husband's (I have a compact double, he has a triple). At the start of each season, he does better on the hills than I do because he can gear down while I'm tiring myself out. By the end of the season I usually torch him on the climbs because he's used to shifting down, while I've gotten strong enough to maintain cadence in a higher gear.

[wackyjacky1]

Keep working at it! When I first started riding last summer, I felt the same way about my gearing on big hills. But I stuck with it and now I rarely even use my third (smallest) chain ring anymore. I've got a long ways to go, but I'm improving, and so will you. :)

[crazycanuck]

Geez, all of a sudden there's an explosion of Perth cyclists on TE :D

In terms of not trying hard enough..If you're riding in Kings Park, Kalamunda, Mundaring or Roleystone, you're trying hard already!! Just keep at the hills and you'll get stronger!!!! I love doing hill repeats in Kings Park :D

I can't tell you how often I swear at the hills in Kalamunda & how slow I go up those hills. Although i'm slow, it's ok as I just want the hill work. I only have a double on my bike but have gotten used to it.

Keep riding & perhaps we might cross paths one of these days

[subengine]

Hello from another 'brand-new' Perth rider! My experience with hills is pretty limited but recently I have become acquainted with King's Park, Reabold hill in Bold Park and also the lovely suburb of Mosman Park which is perfect for practising a range of hills if you want. I must admit though, a combination of a hot day and pushing a bit too hard resulted in me throwing up after doing Reabold hill!

I'm not super fast, but from what I can gather it's the constant repetition of hill climbing that will give you the extra power.

It doesn't help that my boyfriend will fly up a hill at 30km an hour singing 'I love the uphills'! Eeeeek!

have fun!

[Mr. Bloom]

Is it possible that:
you're trying too hard? I mean like pushing to go faster rather than keeping a steady, comfortable cadence (I gauge by my heart rate and breathing to see if I'm trying to keep an unsustainable pace)
you're entering the climb in too high a gear and burning all your energy early in the climb? (this was my chronic problem...plus I tended to be unable to shift in the climb because of the added torque on the gearing)


I suspect it's a combination of training and technique...but hey, worse case, there's no hill that can't be walked!;)

[OakLeaf]

Riders choose their gearing depending on the terrain they'll be riding in, their strength, and the type of riding they plan to do. So if you're noticing that more experienced riders have lower gearing than you, they may be on the right track.

All the other advice you've got here is right on, but you might also want to ask your bike shop about changing to lower gearing. Unless you have higher end drive train components, OR unless your bike has pretty low gearing already (doubtful if most other riders have lower!), you should be able to put on a wider-range cassette for $50 or $60 US.

The tradeoff is that your gears will be "farther apart," and you may find that you have gear ranges where you can't maintain a cadence you like at certain speeds.

[Geonz]

And make sure your pedal stroke is round and round, not up and down... and the practice looking like you're not struggling like your buddies have done :)

[sundial]

I can tell you with a granny gear and mountain cassette, I still stop on one of the hills. :p It's just a matter of time and you'll be able to whip right up that mountain. :)

[hilldweller]

Be careful not to overstrain your knees. Pedalling faster in a low gear is much easier on the knees than straining to force the pedals around at a very slow cadence. So if you have knee issues, that might make investing in lower gears a sensible option.

I have the same problem as you - basically running out of gears at the bottom end. For now I'm going to work on leg strength and fitness and see how far that gets me but if my knees start giving me grief I'll be off to the shop for some easier gears.

[Bike Goddess]

Try getting out of the saddle. Generally you are stronger in that position. It will take awhile for you to build up the strength to stand for long periods of time, but if you keep at it you will be stronger overall.

I have learned to gear up a bit before I stand as I don't want to spin standing- that's really tiring!!!!

Also, do you know what your gearing is? That would help us in this discussion.

Great that you have taken up cycling. It's a wonderful sport and great for your health. :):):):)

[txred9876]

I am such a new rider but I have found that it takes practice,practice and more practice.

I have one very short round trip (about 3 miles) but the return trip is a constant grind up the hill. You go up a constant 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 mile burn on the legs!

One month ago...... I could not do it without panting hard and stopping at least 3-4 times.

Tonight after swimming 3/4 mile I came home and beat that hill!!!!!!!!

Spin class workouts have made a world of difference.

Tina

[Bike Goddess]

TXred- I agree with you on the spin class tip. I learned how to stand quickly in spin and have transferred that to road riding. Spin is a great cardio workout and especially useful if you have a heart rate monitor with you.

[alpinerabbit]

Hi all

When I've recently been training on hills and I need to change down I gear, I often find that my fellow riders have a lower gear on their bikes, so that they are able to keep spinning. Mine on the other hand doesn't seem to go low enough so I'm still struggling to get up the hill.

Is it just that I'm not trying hard enough?

:)

Or that they have a bigger cassette in the back. - Count the number of teeth on the smallest/largest cog: what's yours-11-23?? what's theirs? a 12-25 or 12-27?
I don't really think spin class is needed to teach you better spinning.

[Miranda]

I was just pondering my gearing with the new upcoming ride. I'm losing some higher gears for lower ones. Thinking if I should change my cassette.

My heartrate can take a lot typically. So, my theory was on the one hill I needed the small ring of my triple was pedal like mad. But, at the top I thought I might stroke. Now, I'm thinking my goal is to become profient climbing standing in a bigger gear. Which does take more leg strength, vs heart rate for spinning fast in a low one. It's all a process... just keep at it:).

If you decided to switch out your cassette to get lower gears, you could always switch it back up to the bigger ones once you are stronger to climb.

I'm a Spinning certified instructor. One of the nice things about training inside is that you get off the bike, and you are done. If mid hill climb you decide it's too much on your knees... take some resistence off, and bonus you don't cartwheel backwards down a real outside hill.

One thing I hate as a roadie/mtb with some of my fellow spin teachers is queing adding resistence so low I *know* it's bad for these peeps knees. Outside, I would shift or dismount. I have some joint issues and know my limitations.

I'm with Mr. Silver... walking a hill is NOT the end of the world... it beats crawling into an orthopedic surgeon's office any day;).

[txred9876]

Or that they have a bigger cassette in the back. - Count the number of teeth on the smallest/largest cog: what's yours-11-23?? what's theirs? a 12-25 or 12-27?
I don't really think spin class is needed to teach you better spinning.


I was not referring to spin class teaching one better spinning. I think the cardio and endurance one can gain out of spin classes is valuable. I know in my case it has made me a stronger rider (in a very quick time frame).

Tina

[crazycanuck]

Marfa,

Just a couple of things about Perth hills.

If you're doing the hill just past Matilda bay going towards claremont (the one where you go round the roundabout by UWA & then turn left towards the end of the road) then you need to get your speed up along the flat section. ONce you get past the roundabout by the old Steve's pub, keep your speed up as the hill you come to is best attacked by jumping out of the saddle.

If you're doing Welshpool Road East (for non Perth folks, this road does not have a shoulder & the only place to stop is right at the top) do a combination of jumping out of the saddle & in the saddle. Just remember it's a hard hill to conquer & best done very first thing on a weekend morning!!!

Kings Park-After a while, the uphill sections are easier! There's only one hill that i find a bit hard-the area that was scorched by the evil arsonist :mad: :( . Hill repeats in Kings Park are good!!!

Perth hills are manageable! The hardest hill in the CBD is Mount Street but that can be conquered by doing the bottom section first. Great for mtn biking hill skills too!!

[marfa]

Or that they have a bigger cassette in the back. - Count the number of teeth on the smallest/largest cog: what's yours-11-23?? what's theirs? a 12-25 or 12-27?
I don't really think spin class is needed to teach you better spinning.

Hey chaps
Thanks for all your replies - and yep to those in Perth, it was Reobald hill I was going up !! Nightmare..

I've just counted the number the teeth I have 11-23.

What does that mean then?

Thanks

Marfa :confused:

[Becky]

I've just counted the number the teeth I have 11-23.

What does that mean then?


It's good news :) It means that you have what amounts to a higher-geared racing cassette, and there are plenty of options for lower-geared cassettes. You should be able to get something like a 12-25 or 12-27 pretty easily, and I think SRAM might even make a 11/12-28.

When changing cassettes, just make sure that your rear derailleur can handle the bigger cog and that your chain is long enough. Your shop can definitely help with this.

[sundial]

I'm with Mr. Silver... walking a hill is NOT the end of the world... it beats crawling into an orthopedic surgeon's office any day;).

Amen!

SRAM does make a compact 11-28--I have one on my Roubaix.

[Grog]

Hey chaps
I've just counted the number the teeth I have 11-23.

What does that mean then?


I'll try a different way to explain this, bear with me:

Every time your back wheel rotates, you go forward about 2 meters or 6.5 feet.

When you are in the 11-tooth cog, the effort is divided by 11. So for every cog you go forward 7.5 inches or so.

If you are on the 23-tooth cog, the effort is divided by 23. So for every cog you go forward 3.5 inches or so.

Think of it as lifting weights: I can't lift 100 lbs. But I can lift a 10 lbs weight ten times.

Just the same way, if I'm going up a hill, I have a hard time moving forward 7.5 inch at a time in my 11-tooth cog. So I switch to an easier gear with more teeth (so a bigger cog) and I go forward, say, 4 inches at a time.

But if the hill is really steep, maybe 4 inch at a time is still too much. Maybe 3 inch at a time would be better. So I would need to have a 28-tooth cog at the back to be able to do that.

As someone else mentioned, you can get a cassette (a set of cogs) with more bigger cogs at the back. That will give you an easier time on steep hills. Think again of lifting weights: what you have currently is like the weights of a weightlifter (bike racer): lots of 20-25 lbs weights. If you're merely human like most of us you will probably appreciate 5-8-10 lbs weights. You'll find those on a 12-28.

[To understand this fully, you would have to take into account the chainring at the front. The chainring multiplies your effort at the back. But you just asked about 11-23 so I'll leave it at that.]

[Becky]

Great explanation, Grog! I've never truly understood gearing and found it really helpful :)

[shellkay1212]

Grog,

Thanks for the explanation! I GET IT!!! After two years of totally not getting it - amazing! THANK YOU!:D

[wackyjacky1]

+1 on props to Grog. Ah ha!

[pinkbikes]

Hey chaps

I've just counted the number the teeth I have 11-23.

What does that mean then?



The other way I have used to explain to friends what Grog has said so well is..

If you have 52 teeth on your big front ring, then every time you turn your pedals around one full revolution, you move forward by 52 teeth. This is because for every tooth you move your chainring around, you move your rear wheel around a tooth too. So you will move your rear wheel around by 52 teeth too.

So, if you are using your 11 tooth gear on the rear then you will turn your back wheel around 52/11 times (ie. 4.7times) each time you rotate your pedals once. That's hard work!

But if you are using your 25 tooth gear on the rear, then you will turn your back wheel around 52/25 times (ie. 2.1times) each time you rotate your pedals once, which is a lot easier.

Similarly, if you are using your small ring on the front, it may have 39 teeth (or 42 or some other number depending on what type of gearing you have). In this case you will go forward say 39 teeth each time you turn the pedals.

So when you use the 11 on the rear, you are turning your rear wheel 39/11 times (ie. 3.5times) each time you turn the pedals, which is easier than if you were turning it 4.7times on the big ring. Or if you are on the 25 at the rear it will be 39/25 times (ie. 1.6times) each time you turn the pedals. And that's got to be a lot easier!:)

Who loves their MTB that has a 22 on the front and a 34 on the back? That is 22/34 times, in other words, two thirds of a turn of the rear wheel for each pedal rotation! We LOVE the granny!:D

[Miranda]

Ahh... I love this forum:). It has taken me many times of reading things like the explanation above, trying to even look at good ole Sheldon Brown's on-line gear ratio calculator, to *finally* get what my gears were all about (in terms of comparison).

Besides this wonderful explanation as such in this thread, I did this the other day (I need to see it and touch it to learn "it" btw)...

I took a pad of notebook paper and pen and camped out next to my bike in the formal dining room (aka bike room). I made myself a grid-table on paper with the teeth numbers on each ring of what I have now (plus what the proposed gearing would have on another grid)...

Then I looked at where the most chain grease and grime was on my cassette from where I usually shift/ride (yes, bad bike mommy-she's dirty, but w/helpful evidence to my puzzle)...

I marked those teeth numbers off on my paper grid...

Then I compared to what my new proposed cassette teeth wise and front chain rings would be to see if I had equal gears, OR... got more teeth to turn around... or less (I also drew lines sorta like an elementary school kids' matching work sheet :o).

SUDDENLY at that "line drawing moment", everything I have read/been told about gearing "clicked".

Signed,
Miranda
:cool:Thick-Headed Proud Rider Of The Short Bus...
(who NOW understands gears:D)

[TxDoc]

I suspect it's a combination of training and technique...but hey, worse case, there's no hill that can't be walked!;)

True, as King Fabian recently showed us after his chain broke...
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=6924

[OakLeaf]

yeah, phew, excuse me...

I knew the OP was Australian which is why I posted a price range in USD (sorry for not checking the exchange rate ;))... but what I didn't know was that the price of cassettes has doubled since I last replaced mine last summer! :eek: We were discussing that on the club ride this morning, it's true across brands and price ranges and none of us knew why.

[marfa]

hey Grog

Just wanted to say what a fantastic explanation- especially the weight lifting part, totally get it now why I was struggling!

Thanks again this forum rocks!

:)

[tribogota]

I'll try a different way to explain this, bear with me:


[To understand this fully, you would have to take into account the chainring at the front. The chainring multiplies your effort at the back. But you just asked about 11-23 so I'll leave it at that.]

YOU ARE AN ANGEL, that was totally exciting to learn AND understand, could now also please explain the chainring, I didn't know I wanted to know, but now I DO!

[sundial]

Gave this thread some more thought today.....

I think part of my hill climbing problem is that I'm seated too much and spin, raising my heart rate to ridiculous levels and building up lactic acid faster. It's not that I can't climb out of the saddle, it's that I want to preserve my legs for as long as I can on multiple hills.

I've not done a spinning class but I can tell you I learned to climb better by riding my mtb. I believe mtb'ers as a rule have a smoother pedaling action than roadies.

I'm gonna test my theory the next time I do crazy hills.

[Tuckervill]

When you are in the 11-tooth cog, the effort is divided by 11. So for every cog you go forward 7.5 inches or so.


I'm really dense sometimes, so I need to clarify this at least for my own self.

I think you meant to say, "So for every TOOTH you go forward 7.5 inches or so."?

I can see that everyone, including me, understood what you meant, but I can't leave it, especially since this thread will be here for perpetuity. If I'm wrong, then I'm really confused!

Karen

[Grog]

YOU ARE AN ANGEL, that was totally exciting to learn AND understand, could now also please explain the chainring, I didn't know I wanted to know, but now I DO!

Glad it was helpful!

I think Pinkbikes came up with a decent explanation of the chainring effect (see above in the thread). I can't think of anything better at the moment but I'll think about it.

[sbarron01]

I started bike commuting almost 1 year ago. On this one particular hill, the first "many" months of riding it, I was looking directly at the sidewalk and could actually watch an ant walk across in front of me. Yeah, I was really slow! But, so what, I made it up the hill...and, now, a year later, it's no big deal going up that hill. I knew that eventually I would get stronger...and I did. : )
About 20 years ago, I did Bike Virginia, the year they had the hardest ride ever. It was a miserable experience. I walked my bike up a hill. And swore I would never, ever do that again. Slow riding is so much better than walking.

[Kelly728]

I'll have to re-read those explanations when my brain is not so jam packed. I think it is sort of starting to make sense though! I will admit to walking a few hills during my last ride pre-injury. They were just too much for my legs!

[crazycanuck]

to the OP..I was searching for some hill stuff today on my way down to freo & want to suggest a few places..

Instead of riding all of Curtin Ave, cross at the Grant Street ped crossing (turn immediately left up to the first roundabout & keep following the road) and there are nice hills there to play on. :)

If you're near Point Walter, do Carrol road (instead of veering left when you're along the strand?) & all the hills near it. :)

Don't just do them once, go up & down as many times as possible. Play with your gears, get out of the saddle, stay in the saddle, etc.