Facebook-delisting, changing status

[shootingstar]

I don't use Facebook yet. I'm just curious...if you have had any negative experiences with people via Facebook? Delisted anyone?

And do you twitter? Frankly I can't get excited about twittering and other short (not useful) messages about observations.

But then I still don't have a cellphone.

By the way, don't get me wrong as technologically phobic. For career/work related stuff, Internet and computers as tools are just great. I now would not accept a job in my profession as librarian or records manager that would not allow me to manage and deliver resources and services effectively via computers and Internet.

Just in my personal life/time, things are different. I'm happy with email, Internet chat forums, etc. The basics...

Facebook vultures souring the social experience
Rising number of people are feeling used, bruised on social networks as transgressions become part of the norm online

By Susan Schwartz, Montreal Gazette
March 31, 2009

Social networking like Facebook makes it easier than ever to behave like a boor. The number of people feeling used and bruised is rising as social transgressions become part of the norm online.
Montreal publicist Sylvain-Jacques Desjardins thought a former colleague had good intentions when he befriended him on Facebook.
It wasn't long before the acquaintance contacted him to ask if they could do drinks — and suggested some of Desjardins's friends join them.

"He had never approached me before seeing me out with a group of friends, one of whom is a local celebrity," recalled Desjardins, who has been on the social network for about two years and has about 150 Facebook friends — half a dozen of whom he calls close friends. Desjardins made nothing of it at the time, thought merely that it might be nice to add a new friend to the mix.
So the one-time colleague came along for drinks. And once he'd cozied up to the local celebrity, Desjardins never heard from him again.

He realized then that he had been taken advantage of by a new breed of cad: the Facebook vulture — someone brazen and calculating, a person who has no problem using "friends," then tossing them aside.
"My biggest regret is not having seen it for what it was," said Desjardins, 35. "I would advise anyone to be wary of Facebook and not accept all friend requests.

"The site — members are aptly called users — can provide opportunists with a unique entry point to pillage your life and vulture your friends . . . and the whole incident made me uncomfortable about Facebook as a social milieu."

Predatory and rude social behaviour, of course, is all around us. But Facebook offers a cloak of anonymity, which emboldens people to act in ways they never would in real life, observed Leslie Regan Shade, an associate professor in Concordia University's department of communications studies. It makes it possible "to dispense with the social niceties," as Desjardins put it.
One hardly needs a social network to engage in rude behaviour, pointed out Nora Young, host of Spark, a CBC Radio program on technology and culture. She did muse out loud, though, that if the one-time colleague — despite his uncouth behaviour, Desjardins doesn't wish to embarrass him by naming him — didn't think what he was doing was so bad, why didn't he just ask Desjardins, in person, to make the introduction?

"To friend someone on Facebook when you don't really have any intention of having any type of relationship . . . that would seem to be inappropriate — and probably unethical," said the writer and broadcaster.
The one-time colleague and the celebrity became fast Facebook friends after that evening, then real friends, who would hang out together and write back and forth on each other's Facebook walls, making plans. Which Desjardins, of course, would see in his news stream.
The metaphorical slap in the face was too much: He removed both their streams, then eventually cut the one-time colleague from his friend list.

That's another thing about Facebook: The sting of that slap greets you every time you log in — through features like wall posts, photographs of parties hosted by people who were at yours but didn't invite you to theirs or, if you use it, the relationship status. Your "friends" know, too.

When Chelsy Davy announced the end of her five-year relationship with Prince Harry in January by changing her relationship status on Facebook to "not in one," way more people than Harry knew he'd been dumped. Ouch.
"I definitely notice — and my friends and I will discuss — if a 'major' couple is suddenly single," 23-year-old Rachel Eichenbaum said. The recent Northwestern University graduate and Chicago resident said friends at school who broke up with their boyfriends "viewed changing their Facebook relationship status as a serious source of anxiety . . . because it was a major way in college for 'the scene' to find out about a breakup."

When Montreal translator Karine Majeau attended a party with a guy she was dating, one of the female guests, clearly attracted to him, asked Majeau how long she and her companion been dating. "A few months," she replied.
Oh, said the woman. "On his Facebook page, his status is 'single.'"
Majeau's relationship ended before too long — for other reasons. "But it was a sign," she said.

Although Majeau, 34, lives a low-tech life, without a cellphone or cable service, she had a Facebook page briefly so a friend living in France could send her photographs. But an unwelcome "poke" from an ex who had tracked her down destabilized her sufficiently that she deleted the page in short order.

With little regret. For her, Facebook was filled with posts superficial to the point of banal and friend requests mainly from "people from my past who I don't want to see or who leave me indifferent." She accepted them, as many do, because it seemed the path of least resistance.

Which is not to say there aren't plenty of true friends and loving family members on Facebook, people who care about each other and who love the idea of being able to share everything from pictures and personal updates to their take on world affairs.
For 175 million people and counting, using Facebook is a way to talk about what's on their mind and to provide links to articles or videos, to network professionally and connect with new people — and to keep in touch with those they don't see much.
Facebook could surpass Google in terms of worldwide unique visitors within three years, according to a report from RBC Capital Markets in Toronto, and there are those who believe social-networking sites are poised to overtake e-mail as favoured modes of communication.

Facebook's fastest-growing demographic is the 30-and-up set: work and, in many cases, family responsibilities have encroached, and it becomes tougher to sustain friendships that were once so vital.
For Hal Niedzviecki, a Toronto-based writer and culture critic, Facebook, then, is one strategy to avoid the loneliness that plagues so many. Also, it harnesses the power of celebrity: How enticing is it to have lots of people checking out your Facebook page, or following you on Twitter?

Both these things — the loneliness inherent in our post-industrial digital society and the power of celebrity — enhance people's desires to participate in social networks, where more is always better, said Niedzviecki, author of a forthcoming book on the subject.
But Facebook can also exploit a false and entirely trivial notion of what it means to be a friend, Concordia's Regan Shade observed and Niedzviecki, 38, found out when he threw a party for 700 of his Facebook friends — and only one turned up.
As part of the research for his book, due out in May, he invited people he knew only through Facebook to a party at a local club: they included friends of friends, people expanding their own roster of friends and people who had befriended him because he is, to a degree, a public figure, a bit of a man about town.

The turnout was "kind of a personal blow to my ego," he said. But he learned an important lesson: people hadn't taken his invitation seriously.
The ones who said "yes" on Facebook meant "maybe" and those who said "maybe" meant "probably not," they told him when he followed up.
For them, there is "a disconnect between cyber-friendship and real-life friendship."
To Niedzviecki, that says something about the limits of the Facebook community. For all the lofty proclamations by believers in the power of the social network to change the world, he says: "Guess what? That is going to be awfully hard to do if people don't take the connection seriously."
It's germane to an idea he advances in the new book, The Peep Diaries: How We Are Learning to Love Watching Ourselves and Our Neighbours: People use social networks as entertainment and as a pastime. "They're watching other people go about their lives on Facebook," he said.

Indeed, many of us would be mortified to admit how much time we spend on the pursuit, checking profiles of people we barely know or don't at all and following their posts, calling them friends.

There are, of course, myriad reasons one might befriend someone on Facebook, said Spark's Young.

Your "friends" may include people you truly want to form some kind of social network with or they may already be friends; they may be people you know from years ago or people you have never met at all but have connected with to network professionally. In that way, a Facebook relationship can be "a nebulous not-quite-friendship."

Since we're using Facebook in so many ways, with people continuously joining the network, "the lines of what people ought to be doing in that space are quite vague," she said. And so people can act in ways that seem rude or unethical without intending to.
Chances are you'd be taken aback if someone you didn't know invited himself along to hang out with you and your friends, Niedzviecki said. "Like 'how do I know you?' you might say. Or, 'What is our connection?' But on Facebook, you don't necessarily think like that."
Observed Young: "A new communications technology involves a lot of nuanced social relationships. But it is only after we have had the technology for a while that its boundaries become apparent — the way it is so obvious today that it is rude to say 'What do you want?' when you pick up the phone."

Facebook needs to be managed like everything else in life, publishing veteran Bruce Walsh said. Walsh, who works in marketing and publicity, sees it as a professional tool — it is increasingly common for party and event invitations to be sent out via Facebook, for instance — and said it was invaluable in organizing his 30th high-school reunion.
But when Walsh, 48, is having what he calls "a real party," he still gets on the phone. To invite his real friends.

[tribogota]

Didn't read the article, but I use facebook everyday. I live far from "home" and I keep in touch via the photos and status updates. I also laugh a lot, cause our "professional" status updates in which we lash out against our field, are great. My experience is similar to this forum, some slow conversations that make me laugh, think, or go "oh gee". Up to now, no negative experiences.

[Cataboo]

I have my facebook set up into different groups - people that are acquaintances that I don't want to offend, they're assigned a level of access to my page. They can see some things, they can't see some things... And if I really don't want to see what they're saying, I just tell facebook not to post it on my stream. You can tell it "more about so & so vs. less about so & so"

So people who are saying things that I'm not terribly interested in... I just tell facebook not to show me so much about them. I have some friends from high school that are now stay at home Mom's and that's cool... but I really don't need updates on what their kids are doing 5 or 6 times a day. Every so often it's fun to visit their page and see the new pictures... But no, don't need to know every single time their kids throw up. But they do seem to have like a stay at home mommy support network going, and that's awesome.

I haven't delisted anyone per se. I can't say that I have a huge number of friends on there, because I've been careful to make myself hard to find, and only invite the people that I want to be in contact with.

So there's not all that much drama, it's fun to post family photos and have all my brother's & sisters chime in on it. IT's fun to see what high school & middle school friends are up to now.

I've actually gone and met with one of my friends that I hadn't seen since high school... and we did it as a one on one thing and I don't know any celebrities, so it's not like she can use me to climb the social ladder.

I don't put any information on my facebook page about whether or not I'm in a relationship, so there's no drama about whether or not I'm single. I just didn't fill any of that out - because I'm not defined by whether or not I'm in a relationship or not.

I also don't post things that are too personal in nature - I could have posted that there was a death in the family a couple of times, but seriously... I don't want to have 40 some acquaintances of various amounts commenting on that or trying to say something comforting about it - the people that are important to me already know. I will post a picture of a new bike or a pretty thing that I drove past.

[Cataboo]

I also make sure that I don't have any "work" friends on my facebook... 'cause I don't need them knowing when I'm working :)

Although, it's blocked at work.

[Biciclista]

I like Facebook, it's a good way to keep in touch with some friends and family. I've been approached a couple times by strangers and just told them to go away; and they did.

[Crankin]

I just joined, after a year or so of 2 friends (in real life) bugging me. You don't have to put your relationship status or any of the other things mentioned.
I don't see how people consider 175 people to be real friends. So far, I have 13, and all are people in my family, or old friends from AZ. There were quite a few listed that "could" be my friends, according to Facebook, but when I searched through all 300 (so it seemed) of them, most I didn't know and quite a large minority were people who were friends of my older son in preschool in AZ! The connection was the daughter of one of my friends there, who I did add to my list.
I rarely make a comment. Just don't feel the need to tell people what I am doing every moment. But, I do read what others say. Part of the reason is that as a future therapist, I don't want my clients knowing about my personal life. No pictures up there, either, mostly because I don't know how to do that. But, I really don't want to put any up anyway.
I don't Twitter or text message. I do use IM and I do have a cell phone, but I only put it on when I need to call someone, or when I am going to be out for a long time. Most of the time now, when I am away from home for hours at a time, I am in class, so it's not on. I don't have it on when I ride, unless I am leading or with a group that needs to stay in communication.
I've overheard some moms of teens and kids in college that they feel this is a way to keep in touch with their kids. I feel it's just another way for them to be "helicopter" parents. I didn't want to know everything my kids did! They communicated frequently enough.

[Irulan]

Anyone who thinks that all their facebook friends are "real" friends hasn't thought too hard about it.

as for,

You can tell it "more about so & so vs. less about so & so"


They changed that about two weeks ago. You can either hide people or not, there's no inbetween. I have quite a few people hidden as I have no interest in what they post or how often they post it, but I can go look if I want.

I use it to BS with people that I really mostly, and keep it pretty non-intimate. To do otherwise is pretty stupid, but then again people get pretty stupid about internet behaviors. This is nothing new.

I have unfriended people from a past life who contacted me and then I decided I just didn't need those connections. They don't know if you unfriend them; at least they don't get notified.


Part of the reason is that as a future therapist, I don't want my clients knowing about my personal life. You can set your permissions so that only certain people can see your full (or professional) profile

[Karma007]

I have facebook and twitter, and have not had any issues with either one. I think it's what you make of it. Feel free to find me on twitter @Karma007.

[sgtiger]

I have to agree that it is what you make of it. I've been getting to know some people better though facebook and keeping in touch with my friends more because of it. I'm not constantly playing phone tag with my best girl friends like I used to. We get updated on the little going ons of each others lives that we can then discuss when we get together on the phone or in person. If there's something that you don't want out there, keep it to yourself and let your friends know that you'd like certain faucets of your life not published for the world to see. If they can't respect that, then de-list them. They're probably not your friends anyway.

[eclectic]

Ah the not so age old Facebook dilemma. I am one of the baby boomers now taking over facebook :D

I did read the article BTW

A cycling friend of mine from another city convinced me to open an account. 2 months later she posted "you need to find more friends!" . . . She was my only one. :D

THEN the epiphany came - I went home for Christmas and my nephew and his wife were expecting. I wanted them to email me ASAP after the baby was born. The reply . . . "are you on Facebook?"

Suddenly I had a reason to be there. I saw pictures of the new grand-niece the day she was born- right there it made it all worth it.

I now find it very fun. I still am at under 50 "friends" and they are all people I have some reason to be friends w/.

I am friends w/ a person I have never met but we have a good friends in common and I enjoy the bantering back and forth. Also I am now facebook friends w/ a TE sister and when and if I get back to where she lives I will have someone to go riding w/ :D

I love the regular contact w/ my family who live very far away (as on another continent) so I can never see them face to face.

I love the fact that I can see the babies growing up and changing.

Some of my friends have 300 "friends" I would find that overwhelming and annoying.

Crankin' interestingly enough the person who hooked me up to Facebook is a practicing psychiatrist. I thought she would be concerned about revealing anything about her personal life but she doesn't seem to have a problem w/ it
Again good judgement is the order of the day.

I have everything blocked so only my friends can see anything - I don't even allow friends of friends.

I have had former students contact me whom I have rejected just because I really have nothing to say to them not because I didn't like them when they were in high school. I have no desire to contact old HS classmates either who I wasn't friends w/ then. Seeing them every 10 years at a reunion is enough.

If I want to say something I don't want others to see I just email or PM the person.

I must say all the little "throw a shoe at" or "give a gift to" are VERY annoying and I ignore all of those.

[ny biker]

I just got a facebook account last week. It's interesting. It looks like it will be a good way to keep in touch with people, like a friend who moved to Europe and some ex-coworkers, some who I haven't spoken to in many years even though we were pretty friendly when we worked together.

I just did a search of my high school, and found several of my old classmates, but since I haven't spoken to any of them in a couple of decades I don't think I will try to add them to my friends list. I haven't looked for college friends yet.

For me it's a way of sharing photos, personal news and a little idle chitchat.

I also linked to or became a fan of some sites, like Team Estrogen, the Garmin and Astana teams and my LBS, as a way of keeping up with news and announcements.

[Grog]

I have a Facebook account but I'm pretty careful how I set it up. People who are not my friends can see very little about me, and I am mindful of what I post. I do enjoy the possibility it affords to keep in touch with long-distance friends, even if of course it's limited in many ways...

I also have a Twitter account. I use it mostly to receive and relay news that is not personal. On my "follow" list I have a bunch of journalists, and that's how they use it. I have "unfollowed" people who were chatty about their personal lives on Twitter.

And, by the way, Lance Armstrong is on Twitter. I find some of his tweets interesting but it annoys me when he says he's "driving the kids to school" (why doesn't he get a tandem with a trail-a-bike?) and other stuff of his daily life like that. To me the point of Twitter is not to know the flavour of people's toothpaste, but I realize I'm part of the minority.

[Tuckervill]

I've been on FB for a long time, maybe over a year. I got on because my college-age niece got on, and invited my 70+ year old dad, and he invited me. That all happened while it was still a college only thing. She and I are still Dad's only "friends". But, I've got about 50 "friends" from various sections of my life, now. I used to check it every day, and I still get info on my Blackberry if I want. I haven't checked it this week, that I can remember.

Many of my high school classmates have contacted me in the last few months. It does seem to me that the use y people my age has just exploded recently!

I, to, appreciate being able to see the babies and grandbabies that I might not otherwise get to see!

Something that happened to me, which ties in with the article...My son and his girlfriend of 5 years broke up recently. She was a hair stylist and cut my hair. I got along with her great and always considered her part of the family. I got my hair cut twice after they broke up, then she unfriended me on Facebook at about a month after the break up, and I kind of took that as a sign that she didn't want contact with me or my business anymore. That hurt a little bit. I would have preferred that she just be honest, that she tell me she couldn't see me any more for whatever reason. As it is, I can only infer what I infer.

I did learn that you don't get a notice if you are unfriended--but you will notice eventually.

Karen

[shootingstar]

And, by the way, Lance Armstrong is on Twitter. I find some of his tweets interesting but it annoys me when he says he's "driving the kids to school" (why doesn't he get a tandem with a trail-a-bike?) and other stuff of his daily life like that.

Interesting. Most likely to ride with his kids to school (assuming it's just 1 school for 3 boys), via safe bike route...can't be no more time than walking to the school unless it's out of district.

Anyway, back on topic....it's just a feat for me to do minor email exchange with some of my own siblings. They are all younger than me...but um..let's just say it's easier by phone. For certain, for 1 sister I wouldn't dream of twittering or starting up Facebook with her, since I am aware her life is busy enough with 3 children under 12 and holding down a job 30 hrs. per wk. Am just content to get the odd photo here and there by email every few months.

Same with my closest, long-time friends out of town --only emails on substantive changes in our lives every few months.

So right now, if I were to Facebook, it might be for work-related reasons to be part of professional networks.. which really am not keen to clutter more...when I already subscribe to several listservs, etc. to get the latest developments related to my field, pushed into my email box.

I probably sound like a pointy-headed person looking to chill out in some sort of desert/white tabula rasa of nothingness, calm and no virtual clutter. Sort of no techno-Zen zone.

Maybe that's why like others, I go cycling... :D

But let's keep on going about your Facebook experiences..

[kelownagirl]

Facebook - yes, two accounts. One personal. very private, only real life friends and family. Second one, with my Kelownagurl name. I friend pretty well anyone who asks me on that one. I mostly post training type updates and don't really hang out there a lot but I enjoyed checking it once a day and seeing what people are up to.

Twitter - yes, I'm on it a ton. I follow and am followed by about 800 people. Some of them I have gotten to know really well, very much like my close buds on TE. I use it as IM type thing more than anything else. I post details of my life but mostly it's the @replies that make me hang out there. I chat with online friends, mostly in real time. However, I would not twitter the same way under my real name.

I have tried very hard not to link my real name with my Kelownagurl name. I'm not so worried that Internet friends finding out my real name, but I mostly don't want my students and their families to make the connection. If you google one, you don't find the other. At least last time I checked... lol...

[Cataboo]

I've noticed that my sister & brother don't seem to be friends on facebook anymore- but I've not made any mention of it just in case whichever one of them got unfriended, doesn't know. I'm assuming it was my sister who did the unfriending.

I've also been watching an internet friend's facebook account most of the day - 17 hours ago he posted that he misses his grandmother. He's got 228 friends, lots of whom are in real life.

So I didn't want to say something about his grandmother just in case she wasn't dead and maybe he just hadn't seen her in a long time...

I waited a couple hours (well, not specifically for this purpose, but next time I logged in...)...and I noticed that noone had commented on his missing his grandmother, despite him typically having a busy page. So I asked 'oh, do you mean your grandmother who lives in australia?"

The answer was yes, she'd just died this morning...

So it's been 17 hours since he first posted, and still noone other than me has commmented on that.

I hope people are calling him in person and he's not upset that his 228 friends aren't more supportive.

[smurfalicious]

Wow that article was bitter and negative. How did that get past the editors? And really, coming unhinged because an ex found you on Facebook? Lord if she saw the retarded emails from my ex on myspace she'd be in a facility.

I dunno, people can't see your stuff unless you confirm them as a friend, and they can't find you unless they know your full name. I figure it takes the same sense as you'd have choosing real life interactions. Someone sketches you out, don't accept their request. Like this girl from my high school who I don't remember and has Sarah Palin and John McCain on her profile. Mmmm, delete.

I have Horsebook and Dogbook going now too. PJ needs some horsey friends. So do my dogs. Funny, my pet store coworkers don't have dogbook pages. Boo!

[lph]

yeah, I thought that article was pretty high-strung too. Just because Facebook calls them "friends" doesn't mean that everybody you connect to are close friends. You decide who you want to be in touch with and what to share, that should be pretty obvious. And the "vulture" in the story sounded to me just like one persons colleague finding a new good friend. Which can be a little painful if you're left out, but not necessarily a mean or boorish thing.

But Facebook does raise all sorts of funny issues. I used to have a really close friend 15-20 years ago. We grew apart about 10 years ago, and I don't really have any need to keep in touch. She was rather judgmental about the way I chose to live, and I doubt that that has changed. She asked to "friend" me a year ago, and I scarcely felt I could say no. I'm mildly curious about her life, and don't mind sharing a little of mine, but now she's started asking if we should "do" this or that together. Not quite sure about how outright I want to be in telling her that I don't want to...

For people you have a clearly defined relationship with, Facebook is great. It's more the general problem with the internet and communicating by writing, it's a whole nother ball game from face-to-face relationships.

[Mr. Bloom]

yeah, I thought that article was pretty high-strung too.

lph +1


Social networking like Facebook makes it easier than ever to behave like a boor. The number of people feeling used and bruised is rising as social transgressions become part of the norm online.
[/I]

And this is different from life in what way?

[Pax]

I had a Facebook account for about three weeks, I signed up to see the pictures that were taken during a scuba expo I attended. Very quickly I had old acquaintances popping out of the woodwork asking to "friend" me, many of them wanting to get together or see if I'm attending our high school reunion, I just wanted to look at the pictures and had no idea it would make things like my personal email available to strangers.

I learned I could change my security settings but it was too little too late, I deactivated the account and am changing my email account.

[Cataboo]

One thing people should do is never use their real email addresses (other than for friends & family). Create a gmail account or 4, and set it to auto-forward anything sent to that account to your real email account.

If you need to start a facebook account, buy something, or whatever - give them the gmail account address.

When you start getting spam or something to that gmail account or annoying people, you can then delete that gmail account or cancel the autoforwarding so you don't have to deal with it.

If you pay the $20 a year or whatever for a pay yahoo email account, they then give you 2 email address, and a bunch of throw away email address - I can generate an unlimited # of email addresses that go to my yahoo account, that I can email out with, and that I can delete when they get too much spam.

Yes, it's complicated - but my "real" yahoo email account I've been using for over 10 years now. It would be a huge pain in my neck to have to change that email address or get the information off of it.

[ny biker]

Lance has a son and two daughters, not 3 boys, and I'm pretty sure his house is off the beaten path, so it' probably not within walking or riding distance of their school(s). Not to mention, he can't ride his bike right now. Anyway.

Most of the people on my facebook friends list are adults over 30. However I have 3 teenagers - my 17-year-old nephew, my cousin's 16 year old girl, and my other cousin's son who I think is 14. I wasn't sure about inviting the cousins' kids to be friends, because I figured they probably wouldn't be interested in having a grownup like me reading their stuff, but one of their mother's asked me about it so I friended them. So far it's been interesting. The 16-year-old girl uses lots of texting abbreviations, so I don't understand most of what she's saying. The 14-year-old mostly posts "Bored please text me."

[ASammy1]

I've been on FB for a while now too and although I've never had a problem with it, I did have problems on myspace.

My now ex-husband had a page dedicated to St. Andrea and had posted pictures of his friends wearing my wedding dress. At this point I was already living in another state. Some of his friends have tried to "friend" me on FB... Friends who I know don't like me, so I've "ignored" them. I've also blocked my ex husband and his baby mama (my ex-best friend) from seeing anything about me.

[Irulan]

. I wasn't sure about inviting the cousins' kids to be friends, because I figured they probably wouldn't be interested in having a grownup like me reading their stuff, but one of their mother's asked me about it so I friended them.

My sons ( in college) have let me know that there is actually a facebook group for kids who are creeped out by their parents' friends "friending" them ( or attempting to, I guess) They told me not to do it in no uncertain terms:p

[Cataboo]

I know my little brother is creeped out by having the rest of his siblings friending him. I told him how to put us in a separate family group & limit what we see.

I'm definitely not a teenager, but if my Mom was on facebook, I certainly don't want her to friend me.


She saw me instant message my little brother at 2 am last night, and promptly called me to demand that I go to sleep and give me heck for my eratic sleeping schedule.

[ny biker]

I know my little brother is creeped out by having the rest of his siblings friending him. I told him how to put us in a separate family group & limit what we see.

I'm definitely not a teenager, but if my Mom was on facebook, I certainly don't want her to friend me.


She saw me instant message my little brother at 2 am last night, and promptly called me to demand that I go to sleep and give me heck for my eratic sleeping schedule.


My boss and her boss are both on my friends list, so I can't do much with FB during work hours, except at lunchtime.

I figure the teenagers can always unfriend me later if they want, and I won't be offended. Mostly I think this is an easy way to share photos with them from holidays and stuff.

I wouldn't friend the children of people who aren't related to me.

[Possegal]

Oh my Andrea, what a horror story!

I am "friends" with my cousins kids on FB, but they are in their early 20s and so it isn't that big of a deal. My nieces and nephews are also on my FB list. Two are still in middle and HS and those two, I don't get as much info on. I don't want to know as much about them. The others are closer in age to me than their parents/my siblings. So they have been friends of mine long before FB. My sister though, the mother of the HS age daughter, has not "friended" any of her daughters friends, but several of them have sent her requests. I think she does the same thing, just sets it to not get that much info from them.

I keep up-to-date with folks this way, and can share photos and videos much easier. My sister called me the other night - did you know "Nephew" had moved to Chicago?? Me - yes, Her - How did you know?, Me -Facebook. Then two more family things, two more times I did know and knew through FB. :) So, all and all, I like it and am glad I joined.

[Kalidurga]

Second one, with my Kelownagurl name...

I have tried very hard not to link my real name with my Kelownagurl name.

I'm also on Facebook with my internet screen name (Kali Durga, instead of Kalidurga as it is here) instead of my actual name. The people who have become real friends know my real name, while my internet "friends" know only my on-line pseudonym. That's worked nicely for me so far.

[maillotpois]

My now 13 year old unfriended me on FB for a bit before I noticed. Not ok. I told her if she wanted an account, I have to be one of her friends, period. :rolleyes:

[ny biker]

By coincidence, we have this from Ruth Marcus on washingtonpost.com today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/31/AR2009033103256.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[Kalidurga]

On the one hand, photos of that sort on the internet are potentially a dangerous thing.

On the other hand, I remember friends and I showing off our "naughty parts" to each other in the basement when we were 8.

I'm glad I'm not a parent in this day and age.

[GLC1968]

I'm on facebook and I love it for keeping in touch with friends from far away. I've moved so much that it became increasingly hard to stay in touch. Facebook puts it all into one place for me. I've also discovered some connections that I didn't know existed (like my best friend from when I was 8 is good friends with my college boyfriend and his wife!).

I only befriend people whom I actually want to know. I share my profile with all of them, but there is nothing in there that you can't find out by googling my maiden name (it's extremely unique). I'm only facebook 'friends' with internet friends whom I actually know something about it real life.

It's made it a great resource for me for meeting up with old & new friends. And when someone from my HS wants to 'friend' me but yet chose to ignore me back then...they get ignored by me now. I see no point to befriending people based solely on the fact that we were in the same class at school. If I didn't like them then, I'm not going to let the internet change my connection to them now. In my mind, the definition of the word 'friend' doesn't change just because internet based networking sites exist.

[GeoCam]

I told her if she wanted an account, I have to be one of her friends, period.

Same here with my 13yo daughter. It has been quite a learning experience for me to see what kinds of things her "friends" are posting and saying (some of these kids I know well; some not at all). WOW. I sometimes can barely resist the urge to ask some of these mothers if they have even a clue what their babies are putting out there - and some of their accounts are set up with NO security and even strangers can view their entire profiles!

A few good teaching moments have arisen between my daughter and I as I have (gently) questioned her about something she has posted. I tell her how it would sound to me if someone else's kid had said that and have to keep reminding her that it is not just her really close friends who see what she writes. I just want her to think a bit more before she posts - it's NOT private!!! In spite of my frequent lectures on the topic and my pretty strict control of her internet access, it's amazing how little she comprehends about how far reaching the internet is and how dangerous it can be.

I also could not believe how many kids announced on FB that their families were getting ready to leave on spring break. Since some of them have very low security awareness, there is enough information there to easily find out where they live (we are not in a big city). It's scary!! If they have also been indiscriminate in who they friend or if their whole page is public, it's like taking out an internet ad that says, "Nobody is home for a few days - come help yourselves to our valuables."

I'm sure there will come a time when I feel comfortable unfriending my daughter so that she can have some privacy from me, but we're nowhere close to that point.

[Irulan]

Geocam and Maillotpois, I applaud and support your approach. It's not like you want to control them... just create awareness and use the medium for teachable moments. Hats off to you, sounds right to me.

My boys are essentially adults now ( 19 & 23) so its' a non issue for us.

[Tuckervill]

I'm in the same camp--If I don't have access to my son's passwords, then he doesn't have access to the internet.

I am friends with many teenagers on Facebook, the same way I am friends with them in real life. I don't get why that is weird, but today I was talking to a friend and her daughter said it was creepy when she found out her father had a Facebook page. It cracks me up that they think they own the internet! lol.

MySpace was way worse than Facebook. I always looked at my son's friends pages through his page, and I was frequently appalled by the pictures that even the boys posted. I kept thinking of the pervs that must be trolling for pictures of shirtless young boys. Until recently my son wasn't allowed to even show his face on his Myspace. He doesn't use Myspace anymore, anyway. Facebook is way more secure, but he's not interested. I like it much better.

Karen

[Cataboo]

Not that I'm a teenager anymore - but I gotta say, I'd have thrown a fit if my parents had wanted to keep track of all of that stuff. The same as I'd have found it bizarre if my parents wanted to hang out in my bedroom every time I had a slumber party with my girlfriends. Or read every note that I was passing in school. Or if they were reading my diary.

Privacy is and always has been extremely important to me - and I was well aware of the dangers of the internet when I was younger and the lecherous old men around - when I was younger there really wasn't all that many females on the internet and you were an instant target if you were. I typically would either pretend to be male or an unappealing female. Or older. And definitely privacy included privacy from my parents.

Actually, I'd have pitched a private fit and would have set things up so there were dummy accounts that my parents could see, and my real accounts that I could do what I wanted on - and that would have been a matter of principle. And, while my father was an engineer, I was way more computer savvy than he was and just naturally more at ease with them.

I don't remember what it was, but my parents would occasionally take away my internet access when I was grounded. Disconnect the phone line to my room. That usually entailed me waiting till my parents went to sleep, reconnecting the phone line to my room (reconnecting the wires in the utility room), having the old antiquitated commodore 64 in my room so i could play games (with a borrowed modem from a friend), dialing up and using the internet at night completely text based. I'd surf for a while, go disconnect my phone line, and go to sleep.

For the most part, I was a pretty good kid. I never drank, I never did drugs, I never partied. I did ocassionally sneak out to do wild things like... Hang out at the 24 hour walmart and maybe ride skateboards or bikes in the store. I do confess to having liked boys, though! I snuck out to a party once or twice, and being the responsible one that didn't drink, I spent way too much time babysitting the drunk kids, so I had no desire to go to parties after that.

Anyways - everyone can raise their kids how they want, but I know I resented and did not like it anytime my parents thought they had a right to invade my privacy just because - or couldn't trust me to make good choices.

I still keep my computers & email locked up pretty tight, even if I trust someone and it's pretty much an unforgivable sin if someone starts poking around in my accounts. And no... it's not like I'm up to anything on them.

[eclectic]

Not that I'm a teenager anymore - but I gotta say, I'd have thrown a fit if my parents had wanted to keep track of all of that stuff.
Anyways - everyone can raise their kids how they want, but I know I resented and did not like it anytime my parents thought they had a right to invade my privacy just because - or couldn't trust me to make good choices.
.

Just a question Catriona. Do you have any children?
If not you may understand your parents decisions a little better if you did.

If you do then I hope you have VERY trustworthy children and you never find anything out that will break that trust.

As an educator in a high school setting I applaud the parents who snoop. Kids talk in my class and parents would NEVER believe what their 4.0 honor roll sons and daughters are up to on the weekend and how many are going to the clinic across the street to get birth control, (they ARE 4.0 students after all and not stupid, I do have to commend them on that.) and how many are weekend pot smokers (their children would NEVER do drugs).
Perhaps if a few more parents would snoop there would be a little less of it going on.

But alas, even when confronted w/ evidence redhanded a lot of these parents still don't believe their little darlings would EVER do anything like that - their friends must have coerced them into doing it. :rolleyes:

BTW I am friends on FB w/ my 21 yo daughter. We are both aware it is a public site. I think some of what she puts on there is inappropriate and tell her face to face (or by texting) I don't declare it on the site. AND most of the time we don't even check each other's out.

[Cataboo]

ecletic,

I haven't had kids, but I've had much younger brothers & my father died early enough that I did play a big role in their teenage years and I knew myself and how I responded to my parents and how basically all 5 of us kids did... It was impossible to actually talk to my parents or to go to them with problems because of the overreaction or the consequences. I'm definitely not trying to demean or insult my parents in anyway or how they raised us - because we all turned out fine, I love them, and I get why they did the things they did. However, they did create 5 kids that are extremely secretive, can't go to them to calmly discuss their problems and get advice and the rest of that, and all of us still go to each other for advice instead of our mother.

Anyways in regards to my younger brother - yes - I snooped when he was a teenager, there'd been a few deaths & illnesses in the family & I was pretty concerned about his mental health and possibly self destructive behavior at various points. But I snooped very carefully knowing that my younger brother was way more computer savvy than I was and very bright and if at any point he suspected, he'd be able to lock me out of all his accounts and his computer to the extent that I'd never find anything. Now, I guess I could have had my mother take away his computer in retaliation for him locking me out of everything - but the reality was that the computer was an extremely good outlet for him, he's still great with them, and he writes extremely powerful prose & poetry to express his feelings - and he never really shows that stuff to anyone but a few of his closest friends. Without a computer, he'd have lost a valuable outlet that was helping him cope, or he'd have gone to a library or stayed at school to do that stuff, or done it on friend's computers - and I wouldn't have access to that.

But for the most part, I was a non-judgemental snoop, if what I found was concerning enough or he expressed a wish to have a therapist to a friend and didn't think we'd go for the idea.... I'd wait a few weeks or whatever, get my mother on board, and maneuver a conversation to offer it to him. Mostly he was a good kid that worked hard in school and had teenage angst, he experimented a little bit with drinking, maybe said off color things, etc. When I knew he was doing some drinking, it was obvious he really wasn't enjoying it - it was making sure he could spend a night at the person's house he was doing it with to make sure he or noone else wouldn't be driving and the opportunity to do it a few times was enough for him to realize that it wasn't fixing anything and that was the end of that.

Now, I suppose you could argue that maybe if I'd chewed him out everytime he said something off color to his friends or knew he was drinking, that he'd be a better person today - but I just did my best to provide guidance without him realizing I was snooping and left it at that.

[Tuckervill]

It was impossible to actually talk to my parents or to go to them with problems because of the overreaction or the consequences.

This is EXACTLY why I have access to my (last) son (at home)'s passwords. (My older sons are adults and I'm not entitled to their passwords anymore.) We've never over-reacted to problems or imposed unnatural consequences for things that happen, or things he's done. Thus, he trusts me to look out for his best interest and he gives them to me willingly; he's even relieved that he doesn't have to hide anything.

But then, we live an unusual life, wherein school is not a factor (education is!), and therefore we have never had a cause for an adversarial parent/teenager relationship. We believe that "teenage rebellion" is not a natural occurrence, but one that is formed and created through the separation of children from their parents when they first begin school at age 4, 5 or 6.

I know what you're thinking: Mama's boy. Shivering little weinie hiding behind his mother's apron. Nah. He is 15 and has his own car (still learning to drive), a job and his own money. He flies across the country alone to visit friends regularly. He can bicycle all over town, to the movies, etc., and he does. He is a regular at our gym during the day and all the old ladies love him.

I know what else you're thinking: A kid with no consequences=spoiled brat. Nah. Actions have their own consequences. I don't have to impose them. If he doesn't do his laundry, he has no clean clothes. If he leaves his bike out in the rain, rusty bike. If he doesn't call to tell me he won't be home by dinner, I might worry and be a little less willing to believe him when he says he'll be home next time.

We live in a mutual relationship, instead of an master/subject one. If there is nothing to rebel against, there's no rebellion. ::shrug::

Karen

[maillotpois]

Same here with my 13yo daughter. It has been quite a learning experience for me to see what kinds of things her "friends" are posting and saying (some of these kids I know well; some not at all). WOW. I sometimes can barely resist the urge to ask some of these mothers if they have even a clue what their babies are putting out there - and some of their accounts are set up with NO security and even strangers can view their entire profiles!


I completely agree - some of the stuff I read, after knowing most of these kids since they were kindergartners - it can be pretty horrifying.

[kelownagirl]

I won't let my 11 year old son have Facebook altho many of his friends do. My 13 yo nephews and nieces have pages and I was appalled at some of the pics on the girl's page. If my preteen was on facebook, I'd have access to their account or they wouldn't be allowed to have it.

[Cataboo]

I hope you guys never get sneaky kids who are good with computers :)

[GeoCam]

But then, we live an unusual life, wherein school is not a factor (education is!), and therefore we have never had a cause for an adversarial parent/teenager relationship. We believe that "teenage rebellion" is not a natural occurrence, but one that is formed and created through the separation of children from their parents when they first begin school at age 4, 5 or 6.

. . . .

We live in a mutual relationship, instead of an master/subject one. If there is nothing to rebel against, there's no rebellion. ::shrug::


No offense, Tuckervill, but it just ain't that simple. Teenage rebellion has nothing to do with going to kindergarten!! It has to do with the difficult transition from childhood to adulthood. The child invariably thinks they have completed the journey long before their impulse control, rational thinking, and good judgment have fully developed. As a parent, it is my RESPONSIBILITY to say "no" when my daughter wants to engage in adult-type behaviors when she is only 13. Kids really think they have it all figured out and cannot understand why they are not being treated like adults. I certainly recall how much smarter my own parents got once I really grew up - precisely because my judgment was impaired and I was just flat NOT as smart as I thought I was. You couldn't have convinced me at the time, but I needed my parents to clamp down a bit to keep me safe from myself! I resented the hell out of it, and that is teenage rebellion - and it is very natural.

No matter how good a kid is, they need guidance, rules and boundaries. You don't have to be a tyrant, but you can't really have a "mutual" relationship. Somebody has to be the parent. That is not master/subject - that is parent/child. It is not a bad thing.

[Cataboo]

Btw, in my unscientific sociology experiment watching my facebook friend's account who announced his grandmother died around the time this thread started - Only 3 of his 228 facebook friends actually responded.

[Irulan]

As a parent, it is my RESPONSIBILITY to say "no" when my daughter wants to engage in adult-type behaviors when she is only 13.

Just curious, what adult-type behaviors are we talking about here? Taking the bus alone, throwing back a fifth of scotch, dating?

I'm a big believer in you've got to give them room to make mistakes they can learn from, and letting them be accountable for their own choices.

Computer and things like private facebook pages do complicate things. I'm pretty sure that if I had non adult children I'd want to check in too... too many kids do have poor judgement/lack of understanding about things of a titillating nature , and our culture doesn't help it.

[Biciclista]

I must say I'm glad that internet access wasn't so easy when my sons were below 15 or 16 years old!
I caught my one son looking at a graphic photo of lesbian lovers on the internet. He fled the room and denied it. I thought it was very funny but let him know that I didn't appreciate him lying. (that was before all the viruses and junk you can get on unsavory sites now)

As for being a snoopy parent, what we mostly did was threaten, and we lucked out with pretty good kids. As they've grown up they've told us a thing or two that they did when we thought they were being perfect, but nothing like sending nude pictures of themselves to their friends on facebook!!!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[sgtiger]

Btw, in my unscientific sociology experiment watching my facebook friend's account who announced his grandmother died around the time this thread started - Only 3 of his 228 facebook friends actually responded.

Maybe some of them wrote him an email or called him. When I notice a post about difficulties my gfs are facing on facebook, I make sure to take time out to call. They do the same for me. Since the death of a loved one is of a personal nature, not everyone is going to post a public condolence. Although, I'm sure that, no, not everyone of those people are his true friends.

[Grog]

What a different upbringing I had!

I'm 31 now but I was on the pre-Internet (BBSs, for those who remember the good old days... and those forums that were updated once or twice daily by connecting to distant servers by phone lines with 2400 bps modems!) from... I don't know, age 12 or something? I made lots of friends of all sorts, some of whom became friends in-real-life, too, when I started going to local get togethers. My parents didn't really like me staying up late using the computer, but they didn't actively try to control my activities on it.

My parents gave myself and my brother a lot of autonomy. I wouldn't say freedom, I was grounded a number of times for various causes, but mostly not cleaning my room or fighting with my brother. I also had to help with the family business now and then. But it was always made clear that they trusted us to be responsible and make the right decisions. I was also a straight-A student, and I did some of the things mentioned above, and I still don't see what the problem was. I was empowered and it made me very mindful of my surroundings. I did get close to trouble, but I was never the one in trouble. Think about the sober kid at a party that prevents a drunk friend from leaving with a dubious man.

A few of the parties were held at my parents' place, in their attendance, and were always very decent. I can't recall for sure, but I think they encouraged me to invite my friends over. I was younger than many of them, so I guess meeting everybody was a way for my parents to confirm that they could trust my judgment.

Mind you, at 12 I was also running my own business. It was not just the fun stuff we were trusted with.

We had this conversation recently: my parents are so glad they gave us the freedom to make mistakes of our own. They are both from a family of 10+ kids where you had to look after yourself (and your younger siblings) because the parents had other things to do. To my parents, looking closely over my brother's and my shoulder would have been unthinkable. We both did a bunch of mistakes, sure, but nothing lethal. Knowing that my parents' expectations of me were very high, that they expected me to use good judgment as a teenager, I worked hard to live up to that expectation. I did some things they perhaps would have disagreed with, but nothing that was foolish.

One could say that today's dangers are so much worse. Sure, nobody wants their kid (or friend) to take crystal meth, because only one experiment and they might be stuck in it for verrry long, if not life. That wasn't around back then. Internet stalkers were perhaps not as much of an issue, although my experience says that they were around even 15 years ago. But I don't think that closely monitoring anyone's activities would prevent those anyway.

[shootingstar]

Well, this would be an interesting topic to ask my sisters --those that have much younger children.

I'm sure the 3rd sis, closest to my age is relieved her kids are adults now. She and hubby planted the Internet surfing/email computer in their living rm. To increase transparency of Internet surfing activities when kids were younger.
--------------------------------------------------
Catriona, maybe one day decades later, you'll let your brother know that you were on the lookout for him. At this time, it might explode in your face if he knew what you did to monitor him. It takes awhile for siblings in some families to realize..siblings (those with healthy relationships, either close or distant) are one another's friends --for life. Then he will appreciate it..

[kelownagirl]

I hope you guys never get sneaky kids who are good with computers :)

You are correct that kids can, and will hide stuff anyway. but you are a fool if you don't keep tabs on them. ('you' not to be taken literally) I was an awful teen and I know many of the best tricks so it's hard to get things past me. I've raised two pretty good teens in my house who only got into a little trouble but I will likely be much stricter with the third one. I learned that the hard way.

[Cataboo]

There was heroin & acid trips before there was crystal meth.

If you teach your kids to respect their bodies and to not need that sort of attention from the opposite sex, they won't be posting naked pictures on the internet.

However, that being said - the people that are posting naked pictures on the internet or sexting each other on the cell phones were the girls walking around in short skirts when I was in high school and dropping things so they could bend over... Or the ones who would walk around in their bra & undies in the locker room and then dash out to the gym to get something they forgot.

Grog, I'm older than you by a couple of years & I also did the BBS thing - but was on the internet by maybe 16. I had access in high school, and then a friend that I knew in college gave me his college passwords so I could get on the internet dial up.

I maybe met a couple people from the local bbs... The local high school (I went to a magnet one) ran a bbs, and you could just go to the football games or stop by their computer club and meet a lot of people. There was a commodore users group that held meetings at the library. My parents would let me go to a meeting if they were there.


I've been helping a lot of older people get on the internet lately - and I swear it takes more time to make sure they don't do risky thing with their credit card numbers and fill out every email they get... And in talking to them (they're like 60-70)... underage sex and the rest of that didn't get invented with this current generation.

[Cataboo]

Well, this would be an interesting topic to ask my sisters --those that have much younger children.

I'm sure the 3rd sis, closest to my age is relieved her kids are adults now. She and hubby planted the Internet surfing/email computer in their living rm. To increase transparency of Internet surfing activities when kids were younger.
--------------------------------------------------
Catriona, maybe one day decades later, you'll let your brother know that you were on the lookout for him. At this time, it might explode in your face if he knew what you did to monitor him. It takes awhile for siblings in some families to realize..siblings (those with healthy relationships, either close or distant) are one another's friends --for life. Then he will appreciate it..

The main computer I used when I was in high school was sitting right next to a computer that my dad was always on. He usually was aware of what was up to - I never had to give him my passwords to anything, but given that I was right next to him - it was a given that my screen did get read on ocassion.

I guess my point is that - it's one thing to sit with your kids and go through their facebook page together and discuss it... but it's completely different to require that you have their passwords so that you can go through it completely. Do you sit at the door with a stethoscope when your kids are having slumber parties? If they have a penpal, do you take their letters and read them?

Oh, my brother still finds me a meddling..... whatever, but I am the one that he turns to when he's got a problem or needs something. And he'd go through the roof if I ever told him that I was doing that stuff.

[smurfalicious]

Ha ha! My mom is on Facebook, mostly I think because my sister in law is super into that stuff and got her to sign up. She's one of my friends, and that's cool with me. My mom is my best friend, always has been, always will be. I never really went through that whole embarrassed by my parents phase. I realized they got me places I wanted to go, and I liked my mom's company better than the emotional disasters that most teenage girls were. We had fun together. I got perfect grades, so sometimes I had "doctor's appointments" she had to pull me out of school for. Usually the doctor was at the lake with fishing poles, or the movie theater. :D

I hear you guys on the "perfect kids" thing though. There were girls in my honors classes that uh, to put it blatantly were scandalous hookers but everyone thought they were saints. They were smoking pot, drinking, sleeping with anything that would move. Of course their perfect status meant you had to overhear their conversations because they were impervious to rumors. I never did that and mom suspected I did because I was too innocent. I guess I got a lot of independence and responsibility for my little bro after the divorce and that was enough for me. I liked my mom trusting me to go out dancing with my best friend at the all ages club in town. Why would I blow that?

There is some girl who keeps sending me friend requests, I keep denying them. She went to my high school, but since I attended 3 and have zero friends I keep in touch with I don't remember her. The biggest things on her profile are her adoration of Sarah Palin and John McCain so I'm pretty stinking sure we weren't friends. :p Flaming liberal with two mommies that I am and all. :D :D :D

My "niece" just turned 17 and she's had phone taken away for certain text messages before. Her parents are amazing, if I thought I could be like them, I'd have kids. They have four, which seems like a lot but I would spend the day with all four of them any day because they are awesome kids. In the girls defense, the messages weren't that bad, she didn't mean for them to be, but in the eyes of teenage boys they could have been. So that was explained to her, and she had quite the puppy dog face because she doesn't think that way. I applaud her parents for being involved.

[GeoCam]

I think all of this just strikes a nerve for me because it is the nub of my greatest fear and uncertainty as a parent. I am a single mom and I adopted my girls, so there is no dad in the picture - I have to make all the decisions. Within the next few months the girls will be 12 and 14, and the issues we deal with are rapidly becoming more frequent and less clear-cut.

The "let them make their own mistakes" school of thought sounds great to me in theory and that is what I have pretty much done with them so far, but it is now starting to terrify me. It seems that the world is more dangerous now and that kids are exposed to more things at a much younger age. I have done my best to teach and prepare them, but it gets harder and harder to sit back and let them make their own mistakes as the consequences of bad decisions become more serious.

I know from my own experience that knowing right from wrong is not always enough. I was not a dumb kid - I was valedictorian of my high school class - but I did incredibly stupid things. I engaged in lots of potentially lethal behavior, almost on a daily basis. It was the 70's - sex, drugs, and rock & roll, with a whole lot of alcohol as well. I often think about how lucky I am that nothing really bad happened and marvel that my peers and I even managed to survive. My parents had no idea what I was up to. They thought I was a very responsible kid. I got straight A's. I had a job from the time I was 13 or 14. I paid for my own car and clothes, etc. They simply had no clue. I had 10 brothers and sisters and what my parents expected of me was to not cause them any trouble. I met their expectations because I never got caught.

I want to be much more vigilant than my parents were, but I don't want to make all of their decisions for them.

So I struggle all the time - where is the line between keeping them safe and being overprotective? I just don't know.

[Grog]

So I struggle all the time - where is the line between keeping them safe and being overprotective? I just don't know.

Great question indeed.

Good luck with your girls.

[Cataboo]

I sort of think by the teenage years - you should already have taught kids right from wrong behavior.

And definitely - teenagers are notorious for poor decision making... But for those of us that have admitted to being naughty or a bit wild as a teenager... how many of us would say that parental intervention would have changed things or would just just shifted it to a different venue? Or how many had parental intervention which ended up "straightening them out"? If your parents caught you having sex and yelled at you for it... did you become celibate for the rest of high school?

[teigyr]

As far as being a grown-up goes and using sites like Facebook, I feel they can be a valuable way to communicate. I also feel, however, that it can feed egotism (ie do we REALLY need to know excruciating details about what someone had for dinner or other little things unless there is a reason to?) and there is far too much dependence on making ones "voice heard". I do scan through my friends who have sites but if I have something to say to them, I say it privately. I really don't get things like Twitter - I don't have enough time to do my own things let alone read everyone else's. I sound harsh, I know.

As far as parental controls go, I'm definitely for them. I was one who always tried to get away with stuff and in retrospect, my parents knew FAR more than I thought they did. They were very much in control for some things and in others, they let me make mistakes. High School is very much a time of testing limits. Had I been able to get away with whatever I wanted, I know I would have been a lot worse off in the long run. Rules, along with values and self-confidence, allow the person to make good choices once they're not in the rebellious stage. I also think, for what it's worth, that the teenage years are all about finding oneself and limits have to be pushed. If there are no limits, it can really mess someone up. The friends I had with extremely permissive parents were GOOD kids (for the most part) but were/are pretty aimless.

There are a lot more resources for stalkers and Bad People now. STDs can be fatal. A kid/teenager might be mortified that their parents are checking out what they're doing online but then again I was mortified when my parents insisted on picking me up instead of letting me walk home from school when I was young. It's part of what parents do and I think far too many parents want to be a peer instead of a parent.

So sayeth me, the non-parent :D

[Crankin]

Well, I just read the last 2 pages of this thread. I have mixed feelings. I know what dangers are out there. My kids are grown up (24 and 26), but were extremely computer savvy at young ages. I also spent 30 years around middle school and HS kids.
But... I am a child of the sixties/early seventies. I was treated as a responsible adult as a teen. My parents trusted me and I could always tell them anything, even if I didn't. Did I do wild stuff? Sure. According to some of my former co-workers, I should be dead or burning in Hell for some of the stuff I did. I smoked weed, hung out on the Boston Common, and I ah, liked boys, too. Never did drink, though.
I never was shocked by what the kids at school were saying/doing when I taught, because I did almost all of it when I was their age. My own kids had a lot of freedom compared to their friends, but they also had a lot more responsibility; they worked, had to do stuff in the house, pay for their gas, etc. I didn't let them sit in my car at the end of the cul-de-sac, waiting for the bus. They stood out there in the rain (with an umbrella).
When my oldest son was 12 and in 6th grade, he asked me to drive him to the mall to meet a "girl" he had met on line. This was in 1994 or 95 and not too many kids were meeting people on line. I knew right away he was probably talking to some perv and I said no. We had a little chat and that was it. Yeah, that one spent too much time IMing, when I thought he was doing his homework, but he did manage to graduate with honors from college. I caught the younger one looking at porn when he was in 7th grade, on my computer. He was so embarrassed, that never happened again.
I don't think I would troll my kids Facebook accounts after an initial discussion of the dangers, etc.
My motto was "talk to them about everything." I guess it worked, because my kids never got in any trouble as teens. They were/are not geeks, and are socially responsible people.

[crazycanuck]

I'm on facebook & have located friends from the wayyyy wayyy back when times ;). It's great being able to view ooolld photos :o :eek: and giggle at what planet we were on back then.

My two nieces are on there as well & I know my mom (they live in her house & are under her supervision) will ensure nothing funny goes on. Ok, just checked my younger nieces account & she's doing those "what is your actual age" things. (UGH) I'll do some checking on this...

It's nice to be able to see what they're up to, especially since I don't get to talk to them for long when i ring. (time zone thing again :rolleyes:) If i can't get a hold of my mom via the phone, i'll leave her a note on FB telling her i'll ring her soon.I will under no circumstances ever add my brother...He'll just send me religious stuff & complain about this or that. Urgggg...

Quite a few ex workmates & cycling friends are now on thier OE's so it's a great way to keep up with where they are.
I am hidden well on FB..I think?

[indysteel]

I don't use Facebook or Myspace, nor do I have kids, but I thought I'd provide a link to something I read about in the New York Times about parents, kids and Facebook for those of you who might be interested.

http://facebookforparents.org

[kelownagirl]

Less cranky about crap now. Deleting thoughtless comments. :)

[ny biker]

I don't have kids. But fwiw, I work in an office building where 3 of the floors are leased by the local community college, and they hold classes here, so I see plenty of teenagers around the building every day. And I am amazed at how clueless they are. They literally don't know you are standing next to them in the elevator. And it's not because they are stupid or poorly raised, it's just obvious that their brains are not fully grown up yet. I'm sure I was just as clueless when I was that age.

So I do think that parents need to be involved as closely as possible in what their teenaged kids are up to. There are better and worse ways to be involved, and hopefully more parents are figuring out the better ways than not. I know it's not easy to do.

And I'm no Carolyn Hax, Catriona, but if you're over 21 and your mother is still telling you what time to go to bed, I suspect that your family issues extend beyond privacy.

[Cataboo]

I appreciated that you have a point of view but until you have your own kids, you really don't know. You are being very idealistic. It also depends a great deal on the crowd that your kids are exposed to - it depends on SO much. I did all of the things that you have said, and I do consider myself a good parent. I'm sure if you ask my adult daughters, they will say the same thing. However, I will still be vigilant and question what my kids do because I want to keep them alive. That does not mean I am being a copy, or being over protective. I cannot believe how many of my kids friends are allowed to go to bush parties for example. I know for a fact that their kids are puking drunk and driving home afterwards. I let my daughter go to one, she was driving and I was positive she wouldn't drink. It was a huge mistake. She rolled the car one the drive home, even tho she was sober, simply b/c she was inexperienced. She was fine but stupid me for feeling peer pressure from the other parents, Yadda yadda, I could go on and on, but I ask politely that you consider the fact that you DON"T have kids when you continue to argue your point.

Kelownagirl,

I'm not arguing a point. I'm discussing things, I could discuss or argue either side of this. And my last post was asking people if they considered parental interventions when they were a teenager effective. I also started it off with "I sort of think" which I know is an awfully aggressive way to start a post. I stated early on that everyone should raise their kids how they like.

Becoming a parent, does not magically make anyone an authority on anything, nor does it make them magically a responsible person who worries about the implications of everything their children are doing. Nor does it make them an authority with more valid opinions or qualifications than others. It's pretty obvious that neither of us know much about each other's lives and experiences, but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that you're literate, you're on the computer, you're human, so your opinions have validity and are based on experiences in your own life and were not formed in a bubble devoid of life experiences and other people - and I won't ask that you prove that based on some litmus test before I consider your opinions.

[Cataboo]

And I'm no Carolyn Hax, Catriona, but if you're over 21 and your mother is still telling you what time to go to bed, I suspect that your family issues extend beyond privacy.

Ha. It's a long term fight. She married into a family of night owls and produced 5 kids that are as well.

Her bedtime was at 9 pm, and the rest of us naturally wanted to stay up till 3 am.

40 years later, it still drives her nuts that we wouldn't just be good kids and go to sleep at 9.

It probably doesn't help that with my Dad's side of the family and the rest of us, we sorta routinely call each other at 2 or 3 am since we all know the rest of us are going to still be awake.

Mom also tells me to go pee if I'm visiting her and we're gonna leave the house to go to the mall or something.

She's a fairly adorable mother, but she's had a hard time letting go over worrying about every single aspect of our lives. I get phone calls to remind me to lock the doors at night as well. And given that she knows I'm often awake early to drive long distances in traffic, she worries about my sleep deprivation.

[Tuckervill]

No offense, Tuckervill, but it just ain't that simple. Teenage rebellion has nothing to do with going to kindergarten!! It has to do with the difficult transition from childhood to adulthood. The child invariably thinks they have completed the journey long before their impulse control, rational thinking, and good judgment have fully developed. As a parent, it is my RESPONSIBILITY to say "no" when my daughter wants to engage in adult-type behaviors when she is only 13. Kids really think they have it all figured out and cannot understand why they are not being treated like adults. I certainly recall how much smarter my own parents got once I really grew up - precisely because my judgment was impaired and I was just flat NOT as smart as I thought I was. You couldn't have convinced me at the time, but I needed my parents to clamp down a bit to keep me safe from myself! I resented the hell out of it, and that is teenage rebellion - and it is very natural.

No matter how good a kid is, they need guidance, rules and boundaries. You don't have to be a tyrant, but you can't really have a "mutual" relationship. Somebody has to be the parent. That is not master/subject - that is parent/child. It is not a bad thing.

I have 2 adult sons and one well on his way. My oldest child went all the way through school and is now a successful businessman with a family. My middle child went half way through school and is now a successful businessman. I was fortunate enough to have not scarred either one (much) by all the experimental parenting that we all endured during their childhoods. Once we settled on this paradigm, of mutual relationship devoid of school and and all it entails, we had more just downright happiness and joy on a day to day basis, while still living a successful life. Today is all we have, so joy for today is valuable to me.

I have a wonderful relationship with my oldest child--a mutual relationship based on human dignity and value, a friendship, with better benefits--we influence each other because we love each other. Those are the same principles that I have extended to my other children, regardless of their age. That's all.

I'll be the first to say that school is not the only problem with our society, and I can't really imagine our society without school. But many problems in our society can be traced to the too-early separation of children from their parents. That begins in kindergarten as a rule, and sometimes even earlier.

If you've never experienced any other way of life, you may not be able to imagine that teenage rebellion is not natural. Separation and independence ARE natural. Rebellion, no.

Karen

[Crankin]

My kids didn't rebel, either. They were very normal, in that they went to school, did activities, and actually managed to not drink or wreck any cars when they were in HS. I don't really know how we got so lucky. But we are friends as adults, and they both ask for advice. We don't see them as much, even the one who lives in the area, but that's OK. Our job was to launch them and we did it.
I don't think you have to have kids to know what's right. I worked with some very young, childless teachers who were so outstanding and had the "sixth sense" of what the kids needed. Both of my kids have this gene, even though they have are not teachers (still hoping the one in the military will go this way when he finishes).
I didn't stop doing any of the bad things I did when I was caught. But, I really was never caught doing anything too bad, compared to what was actually going on. I expected my kids to do the same, but I think they were a bit scared about what would happen if they drank and drove, took drugs, got someone pregnant, etc. My younger son was racing and no "bad stuff" would go into his body and the other one was busy with his music, writing, books, friends.
I think most parents are afraid of being honest with their kids, based on my experience as a teacher and as an observer of my peers.

[shootingstar]

As far as being a grown-up goes and using sites like Facebook, I feel they can be a valuable way to communicate. I also feel, however, that it can feed egotism (ie do we REALLY need to know excruciating details about what someone had for dinner or other little things unless there is a reason to?) and there is far too much dependence on making ones "voice heard". I do scan through my friends who have sites but if I have something to say to them, I say it privately. I really don't get things like Twitter - I don't have enough time to do my own things let alone read everyone else's. I sound harsh, I know.

As an aside from the use of FB by children and monitoring..

I'm afraid of cluttering my attention/brain with details about even my loved ones near and far away, on smaller details of their lives if getting on FB at this time.

haven't ruled out FB yet but for certain my nieces and nephews at this point, though polite kids that they are, probably can't be bothered with one of their ole fogey aunts, the inexplicable one riding around on her bike. :D

Haven't ruled out FB in personal life, but just gettin' family members to email more regularily is enough right now vs. by phone. Already I know one of them suspended her Internet account ages ago.... she is really on the budget edge, paying off her house mortgage-- solo. Parents will never be online....they are the older generation of working class immigrants. It's just a feat to speak and comprehend in the same language with them, particularily on complicated topics.

I'm one of the chattier ones online in the family, and also in my snail mail letters when sending gifts. Every one has a certain role in a birth family. :)

[kelownagirl]

Kelownagirl,

I'm not arguing a point. I'm discussing things, I could discuss or argue either side of this. And my last post was asking people if they considered parental interventions when they were a teenager effective. I also started it off with "I sort of think" which I know is an awfully aggressive way to start a post. I stated early on that everyone should raise their kids how they like.

Becoming a parent, does not magically make anyone an authority on anything, nor does it make them magically a responsible person who worries about the implications of everything their children are doing. Nor does it make them an authority with more valid opinions or qualifications than others. It's pretty obvious that neither of us know much about each other's lives and experiences, but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt that you're literate, you're on the computer, you're human, so your opinions have validity and are based on experiences in your own life and were not formed in a bubble devoid of life experiences and other people - and I won't ask that you prove that based on some litmus test before I consider your opinions.

Just ignore me, I was stressed out and cranky when I wrote that. Sorry :)

[Cataboo]

No worries, I was a little cranky in return.

[itself]

You know, the facebook thing, I just don't get. I'm savy with computers and new technology, but facebook makes no sense at all. Hotmail works for me. On facebook it seems like everyone can see your conversations, yuk.

And, another thing for parents to have to monitor.

Lisa

[Selkie]

I don't get Facebook either, but I tend to be private and try to mind my own business (a reaction to working in a very "incestuous" workplace where many people are overly nebby and/or vicious gossips).

All that said, I can understand why people enjoy Facebook, and if it makes them happy, that's super.

[Flybye]

No offense, Tuckervill, but it just ain't that simple. Teenage rebellion has nothing to do with going to kindergarten!! It has to do with the difficult transition from childhood to adulthood. The child invariably thinks they have completed the journey long before their impulse control, rational thinking, and good judgment have fully developed. As a parent, it is my RESPONSIBILITY to say "no" when my daughter wants to engage in adult-type behaviors when she is only 13. Kids really think they have it all figured out and cannot understand why they are not being treated like adults. I certainly recall how much smarter my own parents got once I really grew up - precisely because my judgment was impaired and I was just flat NOT as smart as I thought I was. You couldn't have convinced me at the time, but I needed my parents to clamp down a bit to keep me safe from myself! I resented the hell out of it, and that is teenage rebellion - and it is very natural.

No matter how good a kid is, they need guidance, rules and boundaries. You don't have to be a tyrant, but you can't really have a "mutual" relationship. Somebody has to be the parent. That is not master/subject - that is parent/child. It is not a bad thing.

I applaud you for taking a stand about parenting not being a mutual relationship. I agree with you wholeheartedly from a number of perspectives. First of all, I think that authority does not mean tyranny - that one can be in charge without being the awful dictator.
Secondly, as a intern in the middle school this year I have repeatedly heard the kids who are in trouble say "I'd never tell my mom/dad/parents this but I wish that they would put their foot down on me/sit on me more/be more in charge/pay more attention to what I was texting-doing with friends after school-doing online. From a theoretical perspective (Adlerian) kids act out because they want attention - from who??? most often parents.
I find that it is interesting that we are all for not letting our dogs think that they have dominance in the pet-master relationship but we are entrusted with CHILDREN and let them believe that they are mutual decision makers and mutal in the parent CHILD relationship.
The well adjusted kids that come in for help have parents who are in authority and set boundaries.
That being said, there is another end of the spectrum - kids whose parents are not authorities, but authoritarian - making every decision for them and not allowing them any room to breathe and make decisions on their own - those kids rebel in the process of finding their own identity.
and
since this thread is actually about Facebook :p I will say that one of the most important things a parent can do in the process of guiding a child through life is to have access to passwords. Cyberbullying is becoming more of an issue - so is "sexting". Again, as an intern counselor in the schools, we are trained to ask for Facebook/My Space account information from our kids - we gain so much insight into their lives by the information they give on these accounts - things like early alcohol/ drug use, sexuality, depression, cutting, suicide, etc. Big things. Important things. And I have never had a kid say no when I have asked in a curious way. And I don't use what I learn against them - I use it as an opener into topics that are new and scary for them - as a parent WHAT A FANTASTIC OPPORTUNITY - DON'T MISS IT!
okay, I have shared my $.02

[Mr. Bloom]

You are correct that kids can, and will hide stuff anyway.

Amen, but this ability doesn't absolve us of the responsibility of being a parent. Ours are 15 and 18 now...the older has near total freedom now because she's an adult (no matter how financially dependent she remains :rolleyes:), but rest assured that until that 18th birthday, we were responsible and engaged.

Until they're grown, knowing who they hang out with and what they're exposed to - online or offline - is a basic parenting responsibility. We can't protect them from all their mistakes, but we certainly can let them know that we're interested and observing.

Tonight, daddy's 18 year old little girl...will have her senior prom...and I'll be beaming with pride over who she's become!

[kelownagirl]

Amen, but this ability doesn't absolve us of the responsibility of being a parent. Ours are 15 and 18 now...the older has near total freedom now because she's an adult (no matter how financially dependent she remains :rolleyes:), but rest assured that until that 18th birthday, we were responsible and engaged.

Until they're grown, knowing who they hang out with and what they're exposed to - online or offline - is a basic parenting responsibility. We can't protect them from all their mistakes, but we certainly can let them know that we're interested and observing.

Tonight, daddy's 18 year old little girl...will have her senior prom...and I'll be beaming with pride over who she's become!

I agree exactly. The thing I'm going to do differently with my next teen (he's 11 now) is that I'm not going to be scared to call the parents of the kids I don't know. If he says he's staying over at friend's house, I am going to call an ask the parents if they will be home etc. If he's got nothing to hide, then he shouldn't balk at that. My girls didn't want me to do that because they thought it made me look overprotective and "no one else's mom does that... lol" stupid me for feeling that pressure. I have already let my son know the future ground rules. :)

When I see kids wandering the streets at 11pm, I wonder if their parents know where they are. I dont' want to be one of those parents.

[ny biker]

When I see kids wandering the streets at 11pm, I wonder if their parents know where they are. I dont' want to be one of those parents.

My sister and her husband have a rule for their three kids: they must ask a parent's permission before they go anyplace. This means that if my nephew is at a friend's house, and he and his buds want to go out to get some food or to a different friend's house or wherever, he has to call home and ask first. They're 17, 14 and 12, and they all accept this rule, and they understand the reason for it is that their parents just want to know where they are. So far it's worked out okay.

[Tuckervill]

I don't have that rule in my house, but we do follow the principles of trust and safety, which lead us to call and let the people who care about us know if we're not going to be where we say we are.

It is quite possible to live in mutual relationship of equal status with differing roles, in a family. We do it, and I personally know hundreds of other families, and am acquainted with thousands of others who do, too. It's not my kid or those kids cutting themselves or being self-destructive or sneaking around or feeling insecure about where they stand in the world.

Karen

[Tuckervill]

From a theoretical perspective (Adlerian) kids act out because they want attention - from who??? most often parents.

Then it would follow that kids who get enough attention won't act out, right? Like I said, nothing to rebel against, so why rebel?

Paradigm shift.

Karen

[Flybye]

Then it would follow that kids who get enough attention won't act out, right? Like I said, nothing to rebel against, so why rebel?

Paradigm shift.

Karen
Yep - it is all pretty circular! I guess with the exception of the kids that get WAY too much hover mother attention!
My kids are lots like yours- nothing to rebel against really. They know the rules and know not to push them.
Tuckerville - I miss you! How are you doing anyhow?? I am so busy with school that I just don't get to chat much with everyone on TE!!

[Tuckervill]

I'm good! :) I see by your name, grad school is winning. I'm sure it's worth it and you'll be back on the bike again soon!

Karen

[Geonz]

I read early and late posts and figure that from the quantity there's been nerves touched.

It's funny, 'cause Facebook came up on the school librarians' listserv and whew! interesting discussions! LM_NET is *heavily* moderated (because there are something like 12,000 librarians on it and among other things, every vendor in the world would love access...) and usually discussions are about reference materials.

I got an account a few months ago because they set up a page for our office at work hoping a few students might stumble upon it. Some of my cycling friends are on it and it's really easy to just see what's happening, on my terms and on my time.

Some of 'em are up to their i-balls in applications and quizzes and real drivel... but that's not necessary.

[shootingstar]

Is that what you were/are, a school-teacher librarian, Geoz?

I'm a different librarian stripe ...my whole career has been dealing with adults/adult learners so far. About info. literacy skills of adults. Ok, maybe I did deal with a couple of older teenagers who were looking to impress their teachers by researching university-level resources. ;)

So, what are some of the main themes from that network discussion about Facebook? (Sorry, I'm on other forums and need to focus the info. universe on a daily basis for myself without adding yet another network to monitor.)

[Irulan]

I thought this was kind of funny in lieu of the bridal shower thread ongoing elsewhere on this board.

I found an old HS party buddy of mine, from 1977 or so. We were catching up, and had the conversation about when she got married during our senior years.
She had asked me to be a bridesmaid and I said no because I had no money. She thought I had said no because I didn't approve! We cleared that up right away, 30 years later....

[deeaimond]

Going back to the topic on facebook...

I think I like facebook because I like to share certain things I do with my friends and when friends are all over the world, and everyone's so busy, Just take a look at my updated pictures (no need to repeat same story 50 times. by the 5th time you leave out most things)

:D or sometimes its late in the night and I'm working on something and i'm bored or feel lonely and its just rude to call, or to phone, and u don't want to wake the family. saying something on facebook will find me someone I know who might have a chat with me?

I have had friends of friends who try to add me, i just tell them sorry, i only add people i know in person. that said, i never share anything truly personal. just stuff i'd share if i met an old friend on a street.

i find it weird how some pple put pictures of them kissing their bfs, or stuff like that. my bf has been contemplating getting off facebook. he says that when your Dad and Aunts have facebook accounts, its time to get off... hahha. I think i need to find the time to defriend some people (but I also like to perve on their pics.. call me nosy hehhe)