Women's Specific Designs

[Susan Otcenas]

Hello Ladies,

I've been approached by one of the bike companies for an opinion on WSD. Instead I'd like to throw the question out to YOU. Basically, this company wants to add WSD bikes to its line in 2006 and 2007. But they want to do it right. And, they are concerned with ambiguous feedback they've received on the issue. The camps seems to be almost evenly split between WSD being the answer or just being hype/ marketing.

So, what do you all think?? Here's you chance to let the bike companies know what you want and what you don't.

Susan

[DeniseGoldberg]

It's awesome that bike companies are asking about this. I wish I could help, but I strayed into the world of custom bikes back in 1998 when I was looking for a touring bike, and I haven't looked back.

There were a couple of reasons why I went custom. One was touring. There weren't many (manufactured, off-the-shelf) touring bikes out there at the time - in fact the one that I saw was a Cannondale, which could have been OK but the frame didn't fit. OK, so that's two reasons - there weren't many bikes out there at the time that were intended for touring, and fit - and fit is probably the prime reason for WSD bikes. The other is that I wanted quality components that I could rely on when I was riding in areas where there were no bike shops to bail me out. Of course, even on stock bikes the components can be swapped out, so that's probably less of an issue.

Back to your real question though... at this point it's really hard for me to imagine buying a bike that isn't custom built for me. But - it seems to me that the WSD designs are good for a portion of the women out there - those whose bodies (length of torso vs. leg length, reach, etc.) don't fit well on the non-WSD frames. It's quite possible that I never was a good candidate for WSD because I don't remember having severe fitting problems prior to switching to custom bikes. Prior to going custom, I could find bikes that worked well for me once we swapped out components like the stem, made sure the handlebars were right, etc.

It will be interesting to see what the manufacturer who contacted you decides to do.

--- Denise

[Asphaltgirl]

Being on the, ummm, short side (under 5ft), with a short reach, finding a road bike was really tough. I was also moving from mtb to road and wasn't sure if I was going to like roading so my budget was based on the fact, that, if I didn't like it, I'd have no guilt leaving the bike in the garage! I did finally find a WSD that had 90% of what I needed for size and comfort. Still had to make some minor adjustments and, now, it's just about perfect. I wish that I had had more options for a WSD bike when I was looking, but, I guess, women don't ride bikes! Or it's difficult to move them out of a bike shop. Not sure what the male thinking is! When I'm ready to upgrade, I'm pretty sure that I would stay with that kind of design.
~~AG~~

[Irulan]

you dont' specify mountain or road.

Where bike companies get into trouble with WSD is when the marketing and shop guys use it as a fix-all for every female fitting issue. It's great for some gals, perfect for some, but some of us fit better on a regular frame. I find the education component lacking - not everyone understands that WSD is for a female of certain porportions, not just any female. I got really annoyed when I was MTB shopping, and most shops were pushing the WSD bikes. In addition, there is usually less choice for good component packages. You have one or two options, and that's it.

this is off my web page:

It's a great concept, geometry and frames just for women. This concept is for a specific body type: women who have a short torso and long legs. I ride a men's 15" Kona which fits me beautifully. I have a longer torso. Don't get locked into WSD, but go ahead and try it and see if it's right for you. For some women, it's exactly what they need. Try lots of bikes until you feel the one that's right for you. Some things you can change out on your bike are smaller brake levers, shorter cranks, and more narrow handlebars.

If your LBS (Local Bike Shop) is insisting that you try WSD, or only WSD, and treating you in a condescending manner - "hey little lady, we know what you need..." Run, do not walk, to a different shop. You deserve better than that. Try lots of different bikes.

[Selkie]

I was lucky that the LBS that I patronize is not "patronizing" to me because I'm female and over forty. When I recently bought my Dolce Elite, they showed me a "men's" bike as an alternative. I ended up buying the Dolce because I prefer a WSD bike.

The reasons: I am 5'5" but with a petite build. I am small boned, so I have small hands and regular (men) sized brake levers, handlebars, etc, are uncomfortable. Reach is another concern for me, as I prefer the shorter reach of a WSD bike because my arms are short. Then there's toe overlap. The thing I love about my Terry is the smaller front tire, which gives me greater control over the bike and eliminates the toe overlap. Interestingly, my Dolce has a regular tire but the geometry of the frame is such that I haven't experienced any problems w/toe overlap. WSD bikes have always felt more comfortable to me and consequently, I feel much more confident in the saddle.

[SadieKate]

I’m pretty much with Irulan on this one (with maybe one exception) and think the components are the primary problem as well as education of the LBS. I am just tall enough to find production frames but I find that shops are just now learning that the combined top tube and stem length is the first place to start with short women. Too frequently someone just says, “Use a shorter stem.” Stems 1) aren’t readily available in a short length and 2) can really play havoc with the intended handling of the bike if it is too short or too long.

WSD bikes frequently have lower end components that are heavy and don’t provide the performance of the higher end gruppos. Campy recently emailed me with some gibberish about loosing breaking power if they designed their levers to accommodate small hands. Since numerous other road and mtb component manufacturers have managed to use shims, screws and design to solve the problem, you would think Campy could also. Suspension that requires a spring, elastomer or oil is set-up for heavier riders and the LBS and mfgr won’t supply/fit the bike with the proper component. A small-size stock bike should be ready to go for the smaller rider.

Q-factor – don’t get me started! Women are more susceptible to knee problems and our pelvis width is all over the place! I think a lot of knee pain could be solved with narrower cranks. Many pros have custom pedals with shorter spindles to deal with this. Many of the boutique manufacturers address this issue, but bike companies will only spec bikes with big name components due to the profit/cost factor.

Carbon – I was just shopping for a carbon road fork. I can’t tell you the list of manufacturers/models I went through with my LBS until we settled on one that wasn’t built for a Clydesdale. The industry seems to be petrified that someone might think a fork has any flex at all. This results in components that are rigid for a 175-lb rider but are jackhammers for smaller riders. Tell your contact that lower modulus is OK, not to be afraid of it. If the CSC team asks for more compliant forks to ride Paris-Roubaix, I think the mfgr should be listening and thinking about others who might also have these concerns.

Carbon forks do bring me the next topic. Generally, unisex production frames are fine if you know how to get a proper fit but the tubing can be highly over-built for lighter weight folk. This is probably the only area where a WSD frame might be called for. There are lots of men who need small frames (51cm and under). They wouldn’t want a flexi-flyer and will have an even bigger toe overlap problem. The bike companies are really between a rock and a hard place here. I don’t know how to solve this issue in the real world of cost/profit.

Wheels are the same issue – all of these factory built wheels with high profiles and few spokes provide a lot of stiffness for a heavier racer but I know a bunch of people who regret buying them. At the end of a century, you want comfort not stiffness.

I think I should end my rant now. I truly do appreciate you and the bike company asking for input. I’m afraid you got the tirade building from twenty years of struggling with bikes and clothing in a male-dominated industry. Thank goodness more and more people and companies are listening.

[emily_in_nc]

I am all for any manufacturer adding a WSD line. It is always good to know that women's needs and interests are considered when designing and specifying bikes!

I am a pro-WSD gal. I am built the way WSD fits - short (5'2"), with longish legs in relation to my torso. As a result, I need a shorter top tube than would be predicted based on my height and inseam. The smallest mens size (usually 50 cm, occasionally 48 cm) is always too long on top for me. My ideal top tube length is right around 19", certainly no more than 19.5" at the high end.

That said, I also want a long enough stem (8 cm minimum) that the front end of my bike handles well. This helps when climbing out of the saddle, cornering, etc. I have a Terry bicycle that came with a 6.5 cm stem, which I now realize is too short for optimum handling. I like my handlebars to hide the front hub when I am in the drops or hoods, and I'm behind the hub on my Terry. I have an Aegis Swift I built up from a frame (19.1" top tube), and with a 9 cm slanted stem (8 cm effective), the front hub is perfectly hidden when I'm in the drops and hoods. I like that. The bike handles great, and my back has the proper stretch and his happy.

Another reason I need WSD with its short top tube is that my femurs are long for my height. As a result, I need a setback seatpost and to slide my saddle back far on the rails to achieve a knee over pedal spindle position, or slightly behind, as I prefer for leverage. That need limits the top tube I can use.

I also need 38 cm handlebars; you can only find these on smaller WSD bikes and/or change them out later.

I love the short-reach brake levers but don't require them as my hands aren't really small for a woman. I have them on my Terry but not on my other two road bikes.

I don't require short cranks (165 mm). I have them on my Terry but have 170s on my other two road bikes (and my mtb) and prefer them for greater leverage when climbing. I know they would bother some womens' knees, though, since they are longer than would be predicted for someone of my inseam (28").

I have to have a womens saddle, and one with a cutout. I prefer the Terry Butterfly ti.

I guess because I do have experience with several different bikes, and am opinionated about what I like (for instance, I prefer a compact double crankset to a triple), I probably would not buy a stock WSD bike again (other than my first ever mountain bike, which I bought from REI this winter; I couldn't even think of fitting a mens model), but for newer riders just testing the waters (or trails - like me with my mtb), I think WSD is a great option for a certain percentage of women built in a particularly common way for our gender.

Like others have pointed out, though, WSD bikes don't work for every woman, and more experienced roadies would be more likely to embrace them if more WSD models used the lighter, higher-end components experienced roadie men want.

Even though WSD isn't right for every woman, I definitely appreciate any manufacturers attempting to reach out to us. There seems to have been a huge increase in women roadies in the past few years, and bicycle manufacturers can't afford to ignore us if they want to capture this important market segment.

Thanks for the chance to speak out on this important issue!

Emily

[Dirt Girl]

At 5'1" with unusually short arms, I've owned two WSD mountain bikes and the road bike I bought this year happens to be WSD. I've bought all of them not simply because they are WSD but because they fit me. All of the WSD bikes with their shorter top tubes work better for me, and come closest to my ideal length, than any non-WSD bike I tried. I also like features such as smaller handlebar diameter on my mountain bike and the stock 36 cm handlebars on the road bike. I use the 165 cranks on both bikes. But that shorter top tube is what sells me.

Choices are so much more limited for people on the extreme small end of sizing. I think WSD simply expands the choices for women. That's a good thing. Make a small bike without the WSD label (that's not custom) and I'd be happy to try it out. Bottom line: if the bike fits (WSD or not), ride it!

[Pedal Wench]

I'm split on this issue. My first bikes were both WSD - Cannondale R1000's, which were top-of-the-line WSD from Cannondale. I loved the fit. When it was time to upgrade to CF, I was very limited in WSD designs, so I just shopped geometries to find one that was close enough for me to work with. Getting a high-end WSD is pretty tough. Getting a standard geometry and then swapping out components what I think we're forced to do (I built mine from a frameset, so I could pick my components). I'm probably right on the line, in that I don't think I've got particularly long legs, but I firmly believe that some women need a bike built for their bodies.

[Surlygirl]

I'm also pro WSD. Seem like us short stuffs need the WSD to get a bike that fits. I'm only 5' and finding a bike to fit me has been a challenge. Seems like if you are in the middle (avg) you have much more choices and can choose either men's or women's frames.

I have the same problems as the rest. Once you get the top tube short enough then you run into toe overlap. I've got an almost non existant stem on my Surly and it makes handling really squirrely. Its also hard to find 165 cranks with high end groups. I couldn't stop my bike without short reach brake levers and like the extra set on the tops. And the 38 handlebars are short and shallow. I've only ridden 700c wheels but most LBSs I've been in only have one or two bikes that have the 650s.
Even my mountain bike, a Gary Fischer Xsmall, well lets just say I have NO standover room.
The biggest problem is when you are a small female and looking to test ride bikes, there just aren't that many choices out there and most shops I've been in seem to carry sizes for the average male.

[spazzdog]

I've never ridden a WSD... but that's niether here nor there. Whatever the bike, I have rarely experienced a bike shop that paid women much mind in the fit department. It's like "sell it and roll her out", unless you pepper them with questions and prove you know something. I've had shops try to sell me a bike, saying it was a "great" fit just because my grrl-bits had a smidge of clearance on the top tube.

Whomever the manufacturer, they should demand that the shops representing them become proficient in properly fitting the customer. A happy customer is a return customer.

[Ali]

I totally agree with spazzdog's comments. I rarely visit my lbs (only a mile away) because of their sales attitude. If they have it on the shop floor and you can stand over it, they tell you it fits. I got my first mtn bike from them and it was way too big (16"), unfortunately I didn't know any better at the time.

I now have an XS racer-X that I built up myself choosing components that I wanted like SID SL fork that my next lbs (TX) kept saying would be awful, they had a lot of flex and I should buy a Mazochi (sp?). And I'm stood looking at these guys saying I weigh just over 100lbs, how am I ever going to flex anything.

That being said, I got a WSD road bike last fall and I love it. I test rode a lot of 48 cm and 50 cm men’s frames, but they were too long, even with shorter stems. Too wide and deep in the handlebar, and I could only get my finger tips on the brake levers. However, most WSD bikes were a major disappointment as far as components were concerned. I didn't want dura-ace but I definitely didn't want sora/tiagra. I also wanted 700cc wheels as for our biking household; it’s easier to keep stock tubes and tyres readily available.

In general, I think WSD is a good idea, as it may enable more people to have bikes that fit them. However, I find that component wise, most WSD does not offer a wide range of options and that often WSD are priced higher than a comparably equipped men’s frame. Women should not be penalised because of our smaller size and mass - we deserve the same wide range of options that are available to men at no greater cost.

[Masiguy]

Ok, the cat is out of the bag...

I am Tim Jackson, the Brand Manager and "head" of Masi Bicycles. Susan was kind enough to post the thread on my behalf so that unbiased replies could be generated by all of you. Your feedback has been wonderful and I greatly appreciate all of it. I was formerly the Inside Sales Manager at Canari Cyclewear and worked with Susan quite a bit and she is wonderful, so I came to her (and you) for feedback to my questions.

I could post for hours here as there is so very much to reply to, from all of your comments. So I don't know where to begin or what to say exactly. However, I would like to offer a direct link to me so that this forum does not become biased as a sales tool by me. Let's face it- I do need to sell bikes.

I maintain a blog site (http://masiguy.blogspot.com) and would like to invite you to visit so that you can cast a vote there. I have a poll right now about WSD bikes and your votes would give me "hard numbers" to be able to back my plans and goals. Also, I would like to share my email address with you so you can contact me directly- tjackson@masibikes.com.

Again, I do not wish to abuse Susan's wonderful generosity, so I will refrain from posting further.

Susan did give me permission to say "thank you", so thank you for your invaluable feedback on this issue.

Sincerely,
Tim Jackson
Brand Manager
Masi Bicycles

[Irulan]

LOL, there aren't enough options on your poll.

*wsd needs to have better component options
*train lbs peeps to understand parameters of WSD

[sarahkonamojo]

I am 5'2", 28" inseam, longish femure, short arms. I ride a terry Symmetry which has been a good entry level bike. It has allowed me to experience long distance rides in (mostly) comfort. But certainly, it is time to upgrade. And, oh yeah, the 24" tire is a pain.

It is frustrating because I know I want more of a bike, but being able to test ride/find it is difficult. the idea of ordering custom is scary because I could be wrong... Locally, small bikes sell fast and/or are a special order.

I did have the opportunity to test ride a Trek Pilot 5.0 (47cm) for 65 miles in Colorado terrain and really enjoyed it. I was amazed that with even a larger frame, it rode well. But I want to test ride more bikes, so that I can learn more about what can help me go faster and smoother with more comfort.

All road bikes are rooted upon the young male racer paradigm. Bike design has changed recently to accommodate more of the average population with various riding styles. Seems to me a lot more could be done regarding efficiency and comfort for women on bike, regardless if they can fit a "standard" frame or not.

thanks,
skm

[massbikebabe]

Tim:

Bring back that old steel red Masi like the one used in the movie Breaking Away, make it wsd, and you will have a fan(s) for life. :D I loved that bike!

karen

[Bluetree]

*wsd needs to have better component options

+ zillion

As if women don't think they're good enough for DA/Record/Red, lightweight frames, carbon cranks or fierce paint jobs. Stop the patronizing already!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Well Bluetree- now that you've bumped up this 3 1/2 year old thread (I thought it was new for a minute!), the question becomes....
Did he and his company wind up going ahead with the WSD bike, and if so, what did they come up with that is specifically for women?

[Eden]

+ zillion

As if women don't think they're good enough for DA/Record/Red, lightweight frames, carbon cranks or fierce paint jobs. Stop the patronizing already!

As long as its been bumped.... This is why Specialized, no matter what anyone else thinks about them or their business practices, has my loyalty.... At the time I bought my bike it was the *only* nice carbon frame that was sized to fit me. And yes it came with full DA and a very purty paint job (its the original deep burgundy, good looking without being overly girly).

[uforgot]

Well Bluetree- now that you've bumped up this 3 1/2 year old thread (I thought it was new for a minute!), the question becomes....
Did he and his company wind up going ahead with the WSD bike, and if so, what did they come up with that is specifically for women?

Actually, I've been following the Masi blog since I ordered my mixte in Sept. They have added a few bikes. First there is the Soulville Mixte which I have and was introduced in 2008, and then if you follow this link (http://masiguy.blogspot.com/search?q=virtual+tradeshow) there are pictures from Interbike where they introduced the Masi Alare Bellissima and the Vincere Bellisima. The road bikes are in part 1 and my mixte is in part 1. Not sure about the availability of the road bikes, but it looks like they are on the way, which is good news for stumpy armed long legged women like me.

[OakLeaf]

+ zillion

As if women don't think they're good enough for DA/Record/Red, lightweight frames, carbon cranks or fierce paint jobs. Stop the patronizing already!

As long as we're reviving this thread, it's now 2009, and things are very different from what they were when the thread started. (And very, very different from 1987 when I had a custom frame built because there was no such thing as a WSD bike.)

The "Big 3" now offer WSD bikes with full DA. Cannondale offers Red as well. Orbea can be had with Super Record, DA or Red.

Giant and Bianchi still don't offer the same level of componentry on their WSD bikes, but I'm having trouble thinking of any more mass-marketers who offer WSD frames at all.

Honestly, I really think this is a non-issue. If you're spending that much money, why aren't you building your bike up yourself? I'm more likely to believe that the sexism works the opposite way. A guy is a lot more likely to just lay down $8,000 for a complete bike, without putting any independent thought into the componentry, "because his friends told him it was the best one." When a woman's ready to spend that kind of money, she'll have a frame built, or buy an off-the-rack frame and build it up herself with whatever level of componentry she wants.

[mariacycle]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+

Thoughts? Thanks everyone for your patience on the WSD debate :D

[ny biker]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+

Thoughts? Thanks everyone for your patience on the WSD debate :D

I'm 5'7" and I have a regular (not WSD) frame. When I bought my road bike in 2002, they did a fit kit at the LBS and said I could go either way. I don't think I even tried out a WSD bike.

However over the years I've had to make various adjustments to deal with aches and pains in my neck and shoulders, most recently switching to a very short stem that angles up in order to shorten the reach. If it was in my budget, I would have tried out some different bikes and seriously considered getting a WSD frame.

So, I would say (1) height is not the only measurement to consider and (2) try out several bikes, including WSD and non-WSD and see which one feels best.

BTW if you're near Reston, VA, I highly recommend seeing Adam at the Bike Lane for a fitting. He's done a great job making my bike way more comfortable.

[MartianDestiny]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+

Thoughts? Thanks everyone for your patience on the WSD debate :D

It is not your height that matters, it is your build type.

I'm 4'11", I've purchased 3 bikes in the last 1.5 years, none of them are WSD (though one is custom). Two are off the shelf "unisex" bikes (a road and mountain). I have one WSD frame left in my stable and it's the worst fitting bike I own (and probably soon to be for sale).

This is all despite me being one of the "shorties" that should have a horrible time finding unisex frames to fit (I won't say it's easy) and "should" fit better on WSD.

Why? I have a long torso and short legs (like a typical guy's build, rather than a typical women's build with a shorter torso). In fact my torso is so long I wear a men's medium in backpacking packs (but I'm only 4'11"!!!!!).

Typical WSD shortens the top tube (reach) relative to seat-tube (standover/leg length), NOT what I need at all. They also provide women's bars, grips, saddles, etc. Which is great, but I just swapped out all my contact points (I have my preferred ones and would have done that regardless).

So my point is, at 5'6" a WSD bike may very well help you, or it may be totally wrong, or you may be close enough that it just won't matter (WSD or unisex could fit well). Ride some bikes, or have a fit done, or both and see what works.

[kjay]

Pro WSD! I'm 5'4 with a relatively short inseam and my Trek Pilot is perfect for me. Maybe an old thread but still worth talking about today. Thanks!

[katherine]

This is a great thread to resurrect. When buying my mtn bike last year I went back and forth about WSD. At 5'8" I can reasonably ride a vast majority of bikes. Nonetheless, my legs, while not supermodel long, are longer than they would be if I were a man, 31 inseam. Some of the men's bikes (it's not unisex, they're built for dudes) I test rode felt good. But nothing felt as good as Specialized's WSD, (Era). I will probably lean towards WSD bikes forever. Plus, I see buying WSD stuff as voting with your dollar, forcing companies to recognize that women ride bikes, buy gear, and deserve attention.

[MartianDestiny]

This is a great thread to resurrect. When buying my mtn bike last year I went back and forth about WSD. At 5'8" I can reasonably ride a vast majority of bikes. Nonetheless, my legs, while not supermodel long, are longer than they would be if I were a man, 31 inseam. Some of the men's bikes (it's not unisex, they're built for dudes) I test rode felt good. But nothing felt as good as Specialized's WSD, (Era). I will probably lean towards WSD bikes forever. Plus, I see buying WSD stuff as voting with your dollar, forcing companies to recognize that women ride bikes, buy gear, and deserve attention.

And this is why I dislike the terms "men's" "women's" "WSD" and "unisex".

No, they aren't "built for dudes" or really "built for women". "men's" or "unisex" bikes are simply built the way bikes have been built for a very long time (with some modifications), and during that time it's not as if women were simply not riding them. Bikes were just made without huge amounts of thought put into different body proportions (and the assumption that stems and seatposts could make up the difference). What this actually means varies WILDLY with frame size and manufacturer (a size 44 "men's"/"unisex" bike is NOT built the same as a 54 which is not built the same as a 62 even in the same bike and as you get to the extremes of sizing (44, 62 as examples) the "men's" bike and the "women's" bike show VERY LITTLE IF ANY difference even today)

A "WSD" bike is just as much "unisex" (with the exception of the girly flower graphics and pastel colors some manufacturers insist on using) as a "men's" bike, frame wise. Only big difference? A shorter top tube relative to other bikes with the same seat-tube measurement (and ok, typically available a size or two smaller)

Now, that is a SIGNIFICANT difference, I will not argue with that. But calling them "women's specific" means many MEN that could benefit from this geometry change (and/or availability of smaller frames) never consider it. It also means many women (myself included) that actually fit better on a "men's" frame don't get a good fit either because the marketing (and sales-people uninformed in advanced fitting) tells them "but this was made for you"...when it wasn't it was made for a stereotype (and I'm not even convinced a well understood one at that).

What they really are are different sizing schemes. A "longer relative reach" and a "shorter relative reach".

Honestly, it makes more sense to market them this way, much the way Trek now has a "performance" fit and "Pro" fit (with the only real difference being headtube length) to accommodate different types of rider. Of course that marketing strategy won't take off anywhere near as well as having a whole different line of bikes and saying they are "women's only"....because for some reason our brains think that if it's gender specific it must be better (which is true in some cases, but I don't think it's true in bike fit).

[katherine]

And this is why I dislike the terms "men's" "women's" "WSD" and "unisex".

No, they aren't "built for dudes" or really "built for women". "men's" or "unisex" bikes are simply built the way bikes have been built for a very long time (with some modifications), and during that time it's not as if women were simply not riding them. Bikes were just made without huge amounts of thought put into different body proportions (and the assumption that stems and seatposts could make up the difference). What this actually means varies WILDLY with frame size and manufacturer (a size 44 "men's"/"unisex" bike is NOT built the same as a 54 which is not built the same as a 62 even in the same bike and as you get to the extremes of sizing (44, 62 as examples) the "men's" bike and the "women's" bike show VERY LITTLE IF ANY difference even today)

A "WSD" bike is just as much "unisex" (with the exception of the girly flower graphics and pastel colors some manufacturers insist on using) as a "men's" bike, frame wise. Only big difference? A shorter top tube relative to other bikes with the same seat-tube measurement (and ok, typically available a size or two smaller)

Now, that is a SIGNIFICANT difference, I will not argue with that. But calling them "women's specific" means many MEN that could benefit from this geometry change (and/or availability of smaller frames) never consider it. It also means many women (myself included) that actually fit better on a "men's" frame don't get a good fit either because the marketing (and sales-people uninformed in advanced fitting) tells them "but this was made for you"...when it wasn't it was made for a stereotype (and I'm not even convinced a well understood one at that).

What they really are are different sizing schemes. A "longer relative reach" and a "shorter relative reach".

Honestly, it makes more sense to market them this way, much the way Trek now has a "performance" fit and "Pro" fit (with the only real difference being headtube length) to accommodate different types of rider. Of course that marketing strategy won't take off anywhere near as well as having a whole different line of bikes and saying they are "women's only"....because for some reason our brains think that if it's gender specific it must be better (which is true in some cases, but I don't think it's true in bike fit).

Well that will teach me to venture an opinion.
The original question was is it worth it to look at WSD bikes if you're a taller than average, or even average height woman. As a woman who is taller than average and rides a variety of bikes, my favorite is a WSD. Just my experience.
Also I would like to remark that my brain is unlikely to be fooled by marketing strategies that paint things pink, decorate them with butterflies, or otherwise girlify them. My mind is not so limited by gender binaries, now if you excuse me I must get back to that thesis I was writing, you know, the one on post-modern feminism.

[mariacycle]

Thanks so much for the clarification! I didn't even know exactly what the difference was with WSD bikes. As far as components go, don't most women end up switching up the saddle anyways to a more appropriate one? Also, what's the difference in handlebars? TIA and I really appreciate everyone's patience with answering these questions from both a technical standpoint and from experience... you have no idea how much more useful your advice is than just reading a WSD article from google!

[Tiddle]

Sorry to resurrect this topic again, but I feel like many of the pro-WSD women have small frames (under, say, 5'3") and have difficulty finding a men's bike that fits their needs. I am just shy of 5'6" and am currently riding a 17" Fuji Absolute. I want to buy a decent road bike (maybe in the ballpark of $1k-$2k) and I'm trying to decide whether or not a WSD is worth it for me. I don't know whether or not the WSD make a big difference for a woman that is 5'6"+



I fit into that small frame category (5.1") - When I started getting serious about cycling I assumed WSD was the answer to everything regarding fit problems. But now I think its about greater choice for all riders - bigger range of sizes and adjustments. There are many short men and tall women out there, and some women have short legs and long torsos.

Its one of those cruel ironies that those who need the most help with bike fitting are the ones that can rarely test the bike to see if it fits. Bike shops will never have smallest or largest sizes in stock and will rarely order it just to try. Tall men/women would have an equally hard time as short men/women.

Bike shops should be measuring people before selling them a frame and fitting them out with the correct choice of crank length / bar width etc. But they are only too happy to put them on whatever bike is in stock. (I booked a fitting when my WSD bike arrived, which consisted of the guy standing back and saying "yeah - looks alright to me see how you go with it, we could put the saddle up or down a bit!":mad: A poor fitting bike is unsafe and can put people off riding forever!

Wouldn't it be nice if someone invented a bike fitting device (not just a slide rule on a pole) - like an adjustable dummy frame that can be angled and altered to mimic the geometry of any bike - so you just get on the imaginary bike fitting frame and as a rider you can feel what the angles of your proposed bike will be like and if you can standover it or reach comfortably - every bike shop should have one! (anyone on TE and engineer?)


(And while I'm at it, manufacturers need to offer ALL the frame sizes to other country's... I've looked at so many manufactuers sites recently only to discover they make an extra small size but don't supply it to Australia... grrr there are short people here too you know!)

[Eden]

Wouldn't it be nice if someone invented a bike fitting device (not just a slide rule on a pole) - like an adjustable dummy frame that can be angled and altered to mimic the geometry of any bike - so you just get on the imaginary bike fitting frame and as a rider you can feel what the angles of your proposed bike will be like and if you can standover it or reach comfortably - every bike shop should have one! (anyone on TE and engineer?)

Someone has done this.... If you go to a place that offers Serrotta fitting they have just that. Their own web site doesn't really show it well though. You can kind of see they system in the pictures on this page http://www.serotta.com/Sizing&Fit/PersonalFitOverview.html

[ny biker]

Thanks so much for the clarification! I didn't even know exactly what the difference was with WSD bikes. As far as components go, don't most women end up switching up the saddle anyways to a more appropriate one? Also, what's the difference in handlebars? TIA and I really appreciate everyone's patience with answering these questions from both a technical standpoint and from experience... you have no idea how much more useful your advice is than just reading a WSD article from google!

I think the handlebars on a WSD bike are narrower, to account for shoulders that are less broad. Also I think the brifters might be smaller and easier to reach and use if you have smaller hands.

But that might vary by brand, so it would probably be worth asking at whatever shop you go to. Or maybe there would be information on a manufacturer's website about it.

[7rider]

Someone has done this.... If you go to a place that offers Serrotta fitting they have just that. Their own web site doesn't really show it well though. You can kind of see they system in the pictures on this page http://www.serotta.com/Sizing&Fit/PersonalFitOverview.html

Actually, I think Calfee does Serotta one better and addresses this very need.
The Calfee Fit Bike (http://www.calfeedesign.com/sizer.htm) "can quickly and easily adjust all the important dimensions with quick releases and a hand crank top tube extender. The top tube extender is especially handy for the rider to feel the effect of a longer or shorter top tube while the technician turns the crank handle. You can duplicate the geometry of any manufacturer's production frame directly from their published geometry charts. This allows the rider to test ride a demo bike that may not fit perfectly just to get an idea of the ride quality. Then they can check the fit of the correct size frame and get the right stem length and saddle position on the first try. This makes special ordering frames easy and risk-free. "

My LBS sold their Serotta and the Calfee arrives this week. This will be totally cool.

[Tiddle]

Actually, I think Calfee does Serotta one better and addresses this very need.
The Calfee Fit Bike (http://www.calfeedesign.com/sizer.htm) "can quickly and easily adjust all the important dimensions with quick releases and a hand crank top tube extender. The top tube extender is especially handy for the rider to feel the effect of a longer or shorter top tube while the technician turns the crank handle. You can duplicate the geometry of any manufacturer's production frame directly from their published geometry charts. This allows the rider to test ride a demo bike that may not fit perfectly just to get an idea of the ride quality. Then they can check the fit of the correct size frame and get the right stem length and saddle position on the first try. This makes special ordering frames easy and risk-free. "


wow - that's exactly what I was imagining...

now the next challenge will be to find one in Australia

[oz rider]

(And while I'm at it, manufacturers need to offer ALL the frame sizes to other country's... I've looked at so many manufactuers sites recently only to discover they make an extra small size but don't supply it to Australia... grrr there are short people here too you know!)
But the upside is that we have Baum. (http://www.baumcycles.com/) ;) :D Have a look at his fit bike on the ordering page.

[crazycanuck]

oooooo...drool worthy....ooooo...Baum...*drool*

We visited Baum whilst in Vic for the Otway in feb..what an extra treat! Darren's a great guy & dedicated to his work.

A (uber good mtn bike chick, one of top females in WA) friend of ours rides a Baum Ti Hardtail and it's amazingly booteful.

We thought about ordering one for me but we decided to go down the dually path..It would be an expensive proposition...6months waiting list, plane ticket to melbourne, rental car to get to Geelong etc...

When i go down the road bike upgrade path it may just be my first option :D :cool:

[oz rider]

oooooo...drool worthy....ooooo...Baum...*drool*

We visited Baum whilst in Vic for the Otway in feb..what an extra treat! Darren's a great guy & dedicated to his work. ...When i go down the road bike upgrade path it may just be my first option :D :cool:
Glad you got to check them out at least. Jared took the fit bike to WA a few years ago and I know a woman who got her roadie as a result. They'll pick you up from Avalon! heheh

I'll be there again on Friday. ;) Can't wait.

[Tiddle]

But the upside is that we have Baum. (http://www.baumcycles.com/) ;) :D Have a look at his fit bike on the ordering page.

gasp.... they are beautiful! Will have to remember Baum whe it comes time for the next bike :)