Do you name your bikes? [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

sfa

03-19-2009, 06:07 AM

I only have one bike, but she has a name. I think people tend to name things that seem like more than just tools to them. I know lots of people who always name their cars, which I've never understood. But then, I don't much care what my car is, as long as it gets me from point A to point B. And my daughter anthropomorphizes freakin' everything, so everything has a name, from all of her stuffed animals to her bike to her backpack.

Sarah

Crankin

03-19-2009, 06:31 AM

I don't name inanimate objects, either. I also don't decide if my bikes are "men" or "women."
I call my bike, my bike, which refers to my road bike. If I am going to ride the others, I say "the Jamis" or my mtb.

jillm

03-19-2009, 06:34 AM

This is really interesting! And I guess it's just a black or white thing, I love my bikes, they're pretty and I like to go fast (ummm... faster than walking at least), but they are just bikes.

So do you say things like, "I feel like going fast today, I'm taking Mike!", or "Bessie's better with hills." ?

I must admit, I DO talk to my plants, they're all named "Plantie."

One more question-Male or female? Seems like most are referred to as "she", but Smurf's latest is a boy (which got me thinking about all of this), Andtckrtoo has a Mike. How do I tell the sex of my bikes? ;)

ASammy1

03-19-2009, 06:36 AM

My bike's name is Onyx. It's black with a hint of blue here and there.

I name everything, so it was natural for me to name my bike. My car's name is Snow White! Everything thing that I name seems to have a color reference..

Pink Diva

03-19-2009, 06:54 AM

MartianDestiny

03-19-2009, 07:12 AM

Yes. I don't know why, but I tend to name things I really like and spend a lot of time with. *shrugs*. My bikes are officially "christened" when they first draw blood :rolleyes: There's:

Cougar (which left a very nice "claw" mark down my shin)
Prez (purchased on election day)
Oxymoron (the extra small Giant)
Vendetta (Vee for short)

I seem to stick to masculine pronouns for all but Oxymoron; no idea why.

O, yes, and I'm typing this on ShiKhar (Spock's birth city in Star Trek) the MacBook.

indysteel

03-19-2009, 07:17 AM

I do, but I'm not sure why exactly. I started calling my Bianchi "Sprout" after my BF at the time referred to her as the little green bike. I got a new bike just last week and haven't quite settled on a name. My current BF and I have thrown a bunch of stuff around. For whatever reason, he referred to the bike jokingly as "Nugget"--I think because it's really small--and I have a feeling it might stick, mostly because it makes me laugh.

I don't refer to my bikes all the time by name. It's much more sporadic than that. Usually, I just call it "baby" or "The Bike." I will say that I do feel very emotionally attached to them, in a way that I'm not attached to my house or car.

salsabike

03-19-2009, 07:23 AM

No.

limewave

03-19-2009, 07:26 AM

I don't. But DH does.

roadie gal

03-19-2009, 07:29 AM

I tend to name only living things. My bikes have handling quirks, but not real personalities. I'll refer to them as "the road bike", "the tri bike" or "the mountain bike".

But... a friend of mine had a Ford Expedition SUV that was a light gray. That car was so big it deserved a name. So it became "Moby".

SJCzar

03-19-2009, 08:04 AM

Definitely !!!!

Since I always refer to my bikes by their names, and not the make, even the people at my LBS know who's who. They actually named one of them for me when I purchased it there.

Road Bike - Natalie Jean
Mountain Bike - Naomi Grace
Single Speed - Newton Henry

HoosierGiant

03-19-2009, 08:16 AM

Love my ride! It's a thing of beauty -- still admire it every time I walk into the room. But, it doesn't have a name. After almost four years of waiting for the perfect appellation, I don't think it's gonna happen. I simply refer to it as The Bike.

Karma007

03-19-2009, 08:24 AM

My new bike is still kind of in between. It's real name is "My Alibi" (after my grandfather's boat) but it is generally referred to as "Bicycle", as in proper noun. "I'm taking Bicycle out". I would like something catchy, but it has to fit.

sundial

03-19-2009, 08:27 AM

Carmine the mtb was a very bad girl--she threw me and caused my friend to have PE's. Bad girl! Bad, bad girl!

GLC1968

03-19-2009, 08:37 AM

No, but I've tried. I even tried to name cars in the past, but the names never stuck. I loved my last car more than a human should love a hunk of metal (I cried when I traded it in), but yet I could not get a name to stick.

Same for the bikes. We just refer to them by their model names: Isis, Classic, Tricross, Roubaix, etc Luckily, there are no repeats at the moment. ;)

We suck at naming anyway. Our dogs have two of the most popular dog names ever. And our cat is named 'Kitty'. We really need to branch out a bit, I think. :p

sundial

03-19-2009, 08:40 AM

GLC, lol. So the goat is known as "goat"?

GLC1968

03-19-2009, 08:46 AM

Actually, one of them came with a name (Sasafrass) and the other one we just named 'Buddy' after we started referring to him as that. "come here little buddy....here you go, little buddy...do you like apples, little buddy?"

We aparently have issues. Good thing we don't kids or they'd probably be called names like "Sonny" and "Lady". :p

indigoiis

03-19-2009, 08:47 AM

Yes. My Jamis is J'Aimesh, my GT mountainbike was named (not by me but by a friend) "Jewish bike" because it was given to me by a Jewish friend who put a hebrew decal on the side of it (and I have no idea what it says but someone told me it says, "this pleases me", my old Giant Cadex is the Wee Giant (it's a smallish bike) and the one I just traded was the Booberry.

The new one that's coming will be named upon arrival, but I was thinking, "The Changeling."

7rider

03-19-2009, 09:03 AM

We just refer to them by their brand or model names...same thing with the cars.

Aggie_Ama

03-19-2009, 10:01 AM

I'm one that doesn't really name things that don't have a heartbeat, but I do plan on naming all my bikes (I have three...going to be four soon, but that one's a very old, used bike for my trainer only). I found a name for my Orbea Onix...she's Carrie, a little flighty and a chick that gets around, but she's totally loyal to her friends (ie. ME!). I haven't gotten around to riding my MTB or my hybrid enough to get a 'feel' for names, but that'll come by summer time I'm sure :p

My road bike is Miranda! SATC? Somedays I need a stern but caring voice to tell me I can do something. Plus she seems like she would be a spitfire. I name my bikes and my cars. My mountain bike is Tess because it is a Scott Contessa and she is small and nimble. My former roadie was Fiona, after the princess in Shrek. A bit of a pain but a heart of gold. :p:D DH embraces it and calls them by name.

DH's are the Cannondale (roadie), the Stumpy or the mountain bike (mtn Stumpjumper) and the Kona or the commuter or the cyclocross. But the Kona came with a name- Jake. So he doesn't name them.

I named our truck Clifford which had my brother howling. Our truck is Dodge Ram Quad Cab in red. It doesn't fit in the garage. Clifford the big red dog never fit in his house.

Urlea

03-19-2009, 10:18 AM

Certain pieces of mechanical beauty deserve a name.

For instance my Cannondale road-bike- Tangerine (it's orange)

DH's Raleigh road-bike - Silver Bullet

& our motorcycles - Thor & The Mistress

Others, like my Schwinn Mnt. bike from Target in all it's mass produced cheapness, do not.

Combine that with the amount of time these pieces are your sole companion for miles on end & I think it's fair to say for that reason as well they deserve a name.

But, maybe I'm just goofy in the head. :p

Karma007

03-19-2009, 10:31 AM

Bf's car is Christine based on her desire to lock me in or out, based on what would be the most inconvenient for me.

Tri Girl

03-19-2009, 12:08 PM

I've named my bikes, but nothing else inanimate.
I have:
Speedy (my triathlon bike)
The Tank (my touring bike- as in "heavy as a tank")
dirty (the mtn bike)

My grocery store mixte doesn't have a name. I don't know why- but it doesn't need one. I always say I feel like a granny when I ride it, so maybe it becomes "granny" one day.:rolleyes:

I often get made fun of by DH, but he's started calling my bikes by their names lately. We went riding one day last week and he asked if I was taking Speedy or the Tank. hee hee:)

Kiwi Stoker

03-19-2009, 12:16 PM

Our tandem is the only bike with a name- Big Red.
The other bikes are called by their bike model names but "Trek" and "T2000" just didn't work. I did consider calling the tandem "Terminator" at one point.

sgtiger

03-19-2009, 01:26 PM

I used to think it was kind of silly/cute that Dh named his car when we were dating. He hasn't named any of his cars since. They have been newer with less personality (read: issues). It was General Hirohito or something like that. The Japanese make car counterpart to the General Lee.

Now, here I am doing it with my bikes. My custom Rodriguez Adventurer is named Esmeralda, but is referred to more as Emmy, for her stunning color. Plus I feel "she" is my gem of a bike and the fact that "she" was purchased around my wedding anniversary. Even though it wasn't technically an anniversary present, in my mind, it kind of replaces my original wedding ring that I lost a few years back which had an emerald in it. Also, she's the one on which I can picture myself riding through the European countryside on a fully loaded tour - maybe Nice or Tuscany. (Hunchback of Notre Dame: Esmeralda is the name of the Gypsy woman).

I just purchased a step-through cruiser type bike that for some reason the name Tilly keeps popping into my head when I ride "her." (Okay, the quotes are getting annoying so I'm leaving them out starting now.) She just feels like a she.:rolleyes::o:D:p She's a plain jane of a bike. Not much to look at, but so fun to ride.

I have a mixte, but it doesn't have a name yet. I haven't had the time or funds needed to fix it up properly so it hasn't been ridden. I'm sure once I get to know the bike better, I'll get a feel for what his/her name should be.

I never named my bikes or any other inanimate objects before I really got into riding. 'Course, I was not overly fond of my Terry Classic. It just did not fit me right no matter how much fiddling we did it.

For me, I think has to do with that fact that I'm projecting a bit of myself on my bike because they feel like an extension of my body; which in turn is like an extension of self. So, you could say they are physical representations of my inner personalities.:eek::p Or something like that.:rolleyes::D;)

ETA: I think I only use their names about a third of the time IRL. Usually I just refer to Emmy as my Rodriguez or my tourer.

indigoiis

03-19-2009, 02:00 PM

Our 67 Sperry teardrop trailer is called Esmerelda!

sgtiger

03-19-2009, 02:11 PM

indigoiis - Cool! Did it come with that name? Or is there a story behind it too?

Jiffer

03-19-2009, 02:35 PM

I usually call my Cannondale CAAD9 "Baby", but sometimes Caady (pronounced Caddy).

I think I've referred to her as Pinky before, since she's pinked out. But I guess I never settled on one name that I use often and exclusively. She's probably referred to most commonly as simply, "my bike". And she's fine with that. We do have a good relationship. I take care of her and she takes care of me. :D

rocknrollgirl

03-19-2009, 03:02 PM

All of our bikes are named. I figure anything that I am spending that much time up close and personal with needs a name.

Gidget-my Titus RacerX mtb
Bob-all mountain, a bit heavy but he can a hit
Trixie-road bike, Speed Racer's gf
Belle-my commuter

DH has
Babe the big blue ox-mtb
Gandalph the Grey-mtb
Road bike-yet to be named

I refer to all the bikes by name as do our riding buddies. It is weird, because I am not " cutsey", and nothing else is named.

fidlfreek

03-19-2009, 03:02 PM

I name things that I feel a connection to. And I definitely feel that w/ my bikes! Especially apparent now that I've sold my first bike, who I miss dearly. Her name was Sexy Purple.

Currently my road - the Look 585 - is affectionately known as Frenchie. I'm getting a Surly 1X1 setup like a townie this weekend. And I'm thinking her name is going to be Sparkle. Though we won't know til we bond. I also name my BFs bikes - Great White - the white giant mtb who has white richie bar and stem, and Super Sonic Speed Machine - the Scott Addict.

Its all about emotional connection.

sundial

03-19-2009, 03:33 PM

..my GT mountainbike was named (not by me but by a friend) "Jewish bike" because it was given to me by a Jewish friend who put a hebrew decal on the side of it....

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! I bet it's a strappy little bike. :D

tantrumbean

03-19-2009, 04:08 PM

Got Shane, the road bike and Simon, the mountain bike... When me and a friend first got back into cycling a couple of years back, we had 2 BSO's called Rocky and Horror (they lived up to their names). Then I ended up with Clive, who was completely the wrong size, so Simon is actually his replacement. :)

crazycanuck

03-19-2009, 07:09 PM

Oddly enough, I thought of this thread this morning when i went past a street sweeping vehicle..named "betsy"

mtbdarby

03-19-2009, 08:34 PM

You know, I figured you couldn't have your private parts on something for long periods of time and not give it a name:D

mtb - rockhopper is Ba-Loo (like the Jungle Book)
road - trek 2100 is Marguerite (she stops for them!)
hybrid - diamonback is The Hulk. The name doesn't quite fit and may morph now that I put fenders and a rack on him. Makes him feel more femine:p

djgafi

03-20-2009, 01:39 AM

never thought about it, but "baby" would certainly be it!

TrekTheKaty

03-22-2009, 09:17 AM

Yep, Lightning is her name. I'm a nascar fan and by coincidence, my Trek bike is black and white (like a checkered flag). Lightning is the name of the lead "car" in the Pixar movie "Cars."

I'm convinced it works, because on our first ride, we attempted the hardest hill in our local ride. Halfway up, I said, "Lightning, get me up this hill." We made it! It stuck.

shellkay1212

03-23-2009, 12:39 PM

My Giant's name is Dora Dempsey. I've no idea why. It just works.

My Litespeed really screamed male. So, his name is Mojito. Because he makes me feel like I have a little mojo. And he is hot!

arielmoon

03-24-2009, 05:56 PM

My bike is named Dara (as in Torres) and my car is named Sookie (as in Stackhouse).

kfergos

03-25-2009, 07:43 AM

For me, it's a matter of having spent so much time with the darn thing, it seems to have a personality even if it doesn't. I definitely anthropomorphize my bike beyond naming it, too; I think "Here we are" when we arrive somewhere (even when I'm alone), and I imagine she gets lonely if I don't ride for a few days, and of course I give them gender.

Specialized Hard Rock-turned-Xtracycle: Charlotte (the paradox of a delicate name with this monster of a bike appeals to me)
Seven Ti road bike: Artemis

redrhodie

03-25-2009, 09:16 AM

I'd probably never call my bikes by their names out loud, especially at the lbs, but they are named. My red steel bike is Puddin', and my white bike is Arrow.

redrhodie

03-25-2009, 09:17 AM

Sookie (as in Stackhouse).

I love True Blood!

arielmoon

03-25-2009, 10:57 AM

I love True Blood!

Me too! :D

MomOnBike

03-25-2009, 11:43 AM

I name them - or at least have since I've (kind of) grown up.

The first bike I named was Walter, a 1-year anniversary present from DH. He's a Raleigh, and, um, vintage enough that he's lugged. Really quite a nice bike, though he never fit me very well.

My other bike is William, the 'Bent. (After William Bent of Colorado history fame)

I've also named a bike I haven't even shopped for yet, but we're not going there.

All my bikes are male - I'm not the type to spend that much intimate time with females (no offense intended, that's just the way I was made) - and all have names that refer to a pioneer of some sort, have a logical connection to the bike itself, and start with 'W.' I'm not sure how this happened, but there it is. Elder Daughter thinks I'm done buying bikes, 'cause I surely have run out of names. (see above)

Come to think of it, my viola and string bass feel male to me, as have our cars, at least the cars I liked. Neither instruments or cars have been named, however, and I did spend quite a bit of one-on-one time with the instruments.

MomOnBike
(recovering musician)

gnarwhal

03-26-2009, 07:39 AM

I name my bikes and am currently looking for a name for my new to me handmedown mtb.

He's a Marin Rift Zone and used to be silver and orange but he's now matt black with some shiny shiny Marzocchi forks. Help me out ladies, he needs a name. Currently he's just "black bike" but i don't like that :(

Trek420

03-26-2009, 07:48 AM

Yes!
My bikes:
Motobecane Mixte with flip flop hub - "Mixte fixte"
GT Outpost trail commuter mobile - "Bradley" da' tank.
Mondonico - "Menace" 'cause she's lavender ;)

Knott's bikes:
Waterford Cross (bought right here on TE :)) - "Flossie" short for Flosshilde
Surly Crosscheck "Crow"
Giant (see lugged steel beauty thread) - was "Cedar" now "Red Cedar" :cool:

Knott's son's bike:
a Kona and I don't know if it's named :p

kfergos

03-26-2009, 08:58 AM

gnarwhal

03-26-2009, 09:09 AM

Easy - The Shadow. ("Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?")

I love it! How could i not have thought of that already...i love The Shadow!:D

shootingstar

03-28-2009, 01:54 PM

Thought I would respond...after seeing this topic bumped up at times..

No, my bikes are nameless. In a lazy way, was thinking what would I name my regularily-used bike, which is silver.. Silver Dolphin? Certainly not Silver Bullet..cause I'm not fast on the bike! :)

Then I probably would forget to use the name..I'm kinda like that...best I start off a habit at the beginning, especially for something intuitive as nicknaming a person or thing. I had real problems using a nickname for a good friend when she decided to use it for herself after I knew her for first 5 years of our friendship under her full first name.

I've never named a toy, doll even as a child. So maybe that's why my bikes are anonymous.

Reesha

06-24-2009, 10:32 PM

I've tried and nothing ever seems to stick! Wait-- scratch that. I did name my former mountain bike Super Taylor. I do decorate my bikes as well. I painted Super Taylor on my top tube like so:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/femmeke830/kisssupertaylor.jpg

kenyonchris

06-25-2009, 05:45 AM

I tried. I like my bikes A LOT, but just couldn't name them. Nor do I think of them as "him" or "her"...my SO is so funny about his bikes. He doesn't name them (or at least he has not admitted to it) but he calls the road bike "him" and the mountain bike "her"...not always consistently.

skinimini

06-25-2009, 06:49 AM

Just a couple of weeks ago, the name Rhoda came to me for my bike. I'm not sure why, but Rhoda reminds me of red and my C'dale Synapse is the color "Roarange" (Red/orange).

My mini cooper is named Max (DH even calls him that now)

Reesha

06-25-2009, 07:06 AM

haha if i had a mini, i'd name it too :D

Ann G

06-25-2009, 08:05 AM

I describe my bikes as "the recumbent" and "the upright," so they aren't really names, even though I'm fond of both of them. I used to play the guitar a lot more often than I have in recent years, and got a used Martin D-35 twelve string. Very beautiful guitar. I used to call him Martin, and referred to him in the masculine gender.

TrekTheKaty

06-25-2009, 02:55 PM

I named a friend's bike last week! We dug her mountain bikes out of the garage. After a ride through town, we stopped at Bubba Gump's restaurant for lunch. I bought a tiny stuffed shrimp and hooked it to the handlebars. His name is Bubba Shrimp :D The next day I switched to a different bike. She asked it the shrimp needed to be moved over--nope the name can't be transferred!

TxDoc

06-25-2009, 04:05 PM

No, I just ride them. Actually I do not name anything that is not living.

Zen

06-25-2009, 07:45 PM

she's Carrie, a little flighty and a chick that gets around, but she's totally loyal to her friends

I'm glad it's not Stephen King's "Carrie" :eek:

ZooZoo

06-25-2009, 08:41 PM

Yes. My Schwin is Wilma, and my Rodriguez Stellar is Betty. Didn't intend it that way, but when I saw the Stellar, she was immediately Betty without question.

msincredible

06-25-2009, 08:46 PM

My road bike (Orbea Onix) is "the bat bike" because the color scheme is similar to the batmobile from the old TV series.

The folder (Birdy) is "the clown bike".

Aggie_Ama

06-27-2009, 06:30 AM

I already put that I name mine but in the last week I have referred to both while riding by name.

Climbing a long hill last week on the roadie "Come on Miranda, I know we got it in us!"

Then I had a nasty wreck on the mountain bike "Alright Tess, I am not ready to give up, are you?"

I tend to think I am relatively sane but my car is named Gretchen and yes when she broke last month I begged her to fix herself. :rolleyes:

Crankin

06-27-2009, 07:01 AM

Ha, we call my husband's Bike Friday "the clown bike," too.
This started after some kids laughed at him while we were riding a few years ago. They made some reference to him being a clown, after screaming loudly, "What the hell?"

zoom-zoom

12-19-2009, 09:28 AM

Oby...after my favorite beer, Bell's Oberon. :D

moderncyclista

12-19-2009, 05:00 PM

Yeah, I name my bikes. It feels more personal, makes it more of a friend.

I named my Trek 520 "Buckley" after Jeff Buckley the late singer/songwriter
I named my Jamis Aurora - "Starbuck" after the female lead in the modern re-make of Sci-fi classic Battlestar Galactica.

I think the bike either seems male or female because as humans we anthropomorphize alot of things - cars, bikes, wind, rain, etc. Other than that, I can't explain anyone else's reasons but my own. I find it comforting and charming.

blackhillsbiker

12-19-2009, 05:22 PM

My Kona is Firefly. She has lots of blinking lights for commuting. Fireflies always make me smile. The name suggested itself one night when I was biking around the lake and I saw the flashing of her lights on the water.

The new Giant MTB is Sliver. She is silver and has gotten under my skin.

I always named my guitars. I currently have Pete and Arlo. I have a little Yamaha mission trip/beater we refer to as the "guitar to be named later." At some point it will tell me its name.

I have one daughter who names everything, and two who don't. All our computers have names (it's a Mac thing, I think). My iPod is Elinore. Even my DH refers to these things by their names.

Deb

cylegoddess

12-19-2009, 05:51 PM

My Subzero is Artemis( blue and white) and the new Orbea Onis is supposed to be Nepthys( egyptian goddess of perfection, seeing shes a Orbea and carbon, hehe) but I have a feeling 'she'is a 'he'.
I dont call them by their names though, they are just 'the bike'.

I tend to name animals badly as well - being 'kitty' , puppy', 'bunny' and then nickname them( the rabbit was memorably - 'snuggle puff'!:D)
I tried naming my cars but that didnt work either.
However, the bike has a name that IS hers.
When I told BF, he said he thought of his bike as his 'mistress' - always needing little presents, to be taken out etc - he renamed her 'Ishtar' ( we both study mythology)but he just refers to her, as the 'bke'.

Ritamarie

12-20-2009, 11:33 AM

My road bike, a Cannondale Synapse full Dura Ace Fem 1: "Lucille Bike"

My Surly Cross Check, black with a pink-accented Ride Like a Girl Terry seat, the reliable second fiddle to Lucille Bike: "Ethel"

As in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wp3m1vg06Q

Atlas

12-30-2009, 03:28 PM

I name everything that I can have a strong reaction to. So appliances that annoy me or machines that make me happy. All my computer and photo gear has cartographical names (Atlas, Maps, Legend, etc.).

As for my bikes I have Mary, Queen of Scots (an emerald green and gold pinstripes Motobecane Nobly) and Spooky. I had a dream that I had an orange bike with black accessories and it was the spooky bike. So when I got my Cross Check I reversed the colors for the black frame and it became my Spooky.

shootingstar

12-30-2009, 04:03 PM

No I don't name them. Would like convince myself that I would...but it never occurred to me. Have been cycling for a long time now.

Maybe it's because I never had a doll or toy to give a name long ago as a kid. Dunno.

Catrin

01-16-2010, 05:08 PM

My bike got fitted to me today, and her name finally came to me. Jaguar is beautiful, fast, and she loves to go long distances

Here is her new profile, complete with Cat Eye Cadence computer, Light and Motion Stella headlight, and nice new Ergon grips! Her brake levers and shifters were also moved, along with just about every other part of her anatomy :)

Catrin

01-18-2010, 06:22 AM

Ok, so Jaguar didn't work :) Stella works much better... I love big cats and tried to pick one of those, but Stella fits. Reminds me of that movie (that I never saw) "How Stella got her groove back", or something like that...

KnottedYet

01-18-2010, 06:36 AM

Maybe Jaguar is her middle name? My bikes have first, middle, and last names, and nicknames. (I like naming my bikes)

ivorygorgon

01-18-2010, 07:06 AM

Well, I didn't really do it on purpose, but my mountain bike picked up the name "el Diablo." Because, well, he's the devil :)

Catrin

01-18-2010, 07:28 AM

Maybe Jaguar is her middle name? My bikes have first, middle, and last names, and nicknames. (I like naming my bikes)

Hmmmm - Jaguar = long/endurance ride nickname and Stella = her first name. I LIKE it.

I've always named my cars, but they have never been so "personal" - always something like the Blue Chariot, the trusty rustbucket, or Zoom-Zoom (this was the 6-cylinder with the high compression engine :)

My bike is more personal though, which is interesting. I don't know what it is about naming our transportation, whatever form it takes, but many of us do seem to do it.