Unfairly target

[bike4ever]

I feel I am being targeted unfairly on this message board. I have never hid the fact that I work in a shop; however, my resent sale items have been removed. If the items were read thoroughly, one would realize they are all used.

I have many friends in the cycling community in St. Louis. They seek me out to assist them in selling their product since I have product knowledge. I receive no benefit from this other than helping a friend.

It would be unfortunate to lose a contributor to this board. I regularly point new female customers to this site. Why should I continue to do that?

Traci

[Zen]

I would hate to lose you as a forum contributor as well.
I know all these items are used, perhaps the owners will have to post them under their own user name.

[Irulan]

Maybe take it up with admin?

[Ana]

I love seeing the bikes you sell :D

That's such a shame... I like recycling bikes ;) :p

Perhaps there was a miscommunication about the intent of what you were selling--that is is a favor for friends, not for your shop profit. :(

[PamNY]

You should discuss this with the board administrator, and keep the matter private.

Pam

[bike4ever]

PamNY - I agree with attempting to deal with an administrator; however, I have tried that without success. I have answered their questions honestly, but someone still "complains" about my posts. I never hear back from the administrator when I reply to their requests.

I greatly appreciate everyone's support. That is one thing that I really enjoy about this message board. If someone has issues, is injured, sick, worried, everyone provides support.

[PamNY]

I hope you can get things worked out. Buying a used bike was a great option for me, and I'm sure others welcome the opportunity as I did.

Pam

[Tuckervill]

I'm of two minds.

I think the fact that I can find people on here selling a bike that might fit, is more likely to be designed for a woman, etc., is a a great, invaluable benefit. I bought a bike from someone on this forum, in fact.

On the other hand, I can see how TE might want to limit that kind of activity, since there are costs involved with running the forum, and it's kind of like freeloading to sell stuff here on their dime, so to speak.

It makes me think of Girl Scouts selling cookies in front of Wal-Mart. As long as the Girl Scouts aren't making a killing on cookies based on the Wal-Mart traffic walking past their table, it's fine. Most people who sell used stuff here are not making a killing--they are probably taking a loss.

I look at all of the posts bike4ever posts and it always looks like the pictures are taken in an apartment hallway, not a shop. I believe her when she says she's just a conduit for friends. Working in a shop, she probably has lots of friends with bikes.

Karen

[Triskeliongirl]

I have no problem with your FS posts. We do have a FS section. If you weren't a regular contributor, it would be different, but you contribute your expertise, so I don't see what is wrong with your offering bikes for sale. I am sure many have benefited from your help in making these purchases.

[ilima]

Agree. The posts are always in the FS section. Never bothered me one iota. Seems like that's what that forum is for.

[snapdragen]

Have your friends register and post their own items for sale.

Maybe TE should start charging for ads, like Road Bike Review. I believe it's $2.00 per item or something like that.

[jobob]

I'm really uncomfortable with this being discussed publically here.

Pam is right, this is a matter to be worked out between the admins and the OP.

[salsabike]

I'm really uncomfortable with this being discussed publically here.

Pam is right, this is a matter to be worked out between the admins and the OP.

Yup. It's TE's decision how they run the board, not ours.

[SadieKate]

And it's not like they don't have a phone number so you can privately talk to them . . . . .

[Selkie]

Yup. It's TE's decision how they run the board, not ours.

I agree. I think it is inappropriate to question the admins or to even bring this up on the forum.

Why would you threaten to leave the forum unless you are permitted to post these ads? I hope you decide to stay and continue to contribute.

Why don't your friends post the ads themselves? RunningMommy, who owns a store and likely has similar contacts, doesn't post ads for friends in her cycling community.

While others will post ads for their friends, it's infrequent.

[Andrea]

I have nothing constructive to add here except that it seems panties have been wadded and knickers have been twisted.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_rOOaz85_Yp0/SIfoTEk0sMI/AAAAAAAAAS8/ht_tbBvaJvA/s320/biggirlpanties.bmp

[bike4ever]

Actually, SadieKate, they do have my phone number. I asked them to call me regarding this issue.

I've vented enough. Thanks for everyone's support.

[SadieKate]

Actually, SadieKate, they do have my phone number. I asked them to call me regarding this issue.Ah, so you picked up the phone and called them . . . privately. Gave them a chance to respond before going public????

[ginny]

... but it seems like this is what the internet is all about: democracy in action. She is exercising her voice and as long as TE doesn't start pulling her posts, it seems she is welcome to post whatever she likes in an effort to get to the bottom of why her FS posts are being pulled. Perhaps she is really trying to find who is 'compliaining' about her posts and explain to that individual that she is not selling from a store front. It's best to keep private matters private, but blogs and facebook and the internet in general are all about vomiting private matters for the world to see. She and everyone else in the thread have been respectful of both TE and the other posters (rare on the internet), and it seems like a fairly acceptable way to a) get the admin to reply to her concerns b) assure whomever is complaining about her FS listings that she isn't selling from a store front. Moreover, the suggestions here that she have her friends post their own FS items and TE charge for FS listings are not bad ones. ....just my unsolicited 2cents :o

[shootingstar]

The admin does own/oversee these forums. Why not? She pays a company to have all these forums on a server. Respect the boundaries. Freedom of expression also means respecting boundaries. One day if you run a biz and want to set up forums like this, things start looking real different from the other side.

I perceive TE forums as primarily community-building among women. If admin had a clear profit motive, she would have kicked folks like me off the forums a long time ago. I haven't bought anything from TE yet but nor have I sold any used/new stuff here either.

Come to think of it, why don't you just set up your own blog and start selling the stuff? But I guess, you might have to look at the rules for free blog set-ups too. :)

[Karma007]

I have nothing constructive to add here except that it seems panties have been wadded and knickers have been twisted.

http://bp1.blogger.com/_rOOaz85_Yp0/SIfoTEk0sMI/AAAAAAAAAS8/ht_tbBvaJvA/s320/biggirlpanties.bmp



hahahahaha!!!! :D

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Maybe I'm nuts, but this does sound commercial to me:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showpost.php?p=393948&postcount=7
I think those friends should all be selling off their own used bikes if they want to sell them here.
If you enjoy the TE forums aside from the 'for sale' ads issue, then you should stay even if you wind up being asked to stop selling other people's stuff here. I'm sure no one wants to see you leave altogether. Like most of us here, you can continue to contribute constructive and helpful input in the forum even without selling things.

[jobob]

... but it seems like this is what the internet is all about: democracy in action.

:confused:

Excuse me, but this forum is a gift to us from the people at TeamEstrogen.com, and they have every right to determine what is and is not posted on this forum.

I'm amazed that people so easily lose sight of this simple little fact.

Jeff and Susan run this site on a very long leash - there are things that are posted here that would really piss me off were I in their shoes - and the least we can do is to respect their decisions on how and what is posted here.

And I think it is incredibly tacky that Bike4ever is trying to get other posters to feel sorry for her because she is not willing to abide by the decisions of the people who actually pay for this forum to exist and work to keep it running.

[ginny]

[QUOTE=jobob;410357]:confused:

I'm amazed that people so easily lose sight of this simple little fact.

but I actually said "the internet " and I didn't specifically say this forum. Nor did I say freedom of speech because when a forum is run by individuals, they do retain the right to censor what they wish. There is no freedom of speech. In that, I agree with you. What I am saying is, as long as they do not remove her posts from here, she is free to post what she wishes. They may exercise their rights of censorship in deleting this post if they wish.

Anyway, I did read the 'commercial looking' post, and I agree with you, but as long as TE doesn't delete this post, or any others, people may post what they wish. It doesn't mean it's 'right' or 'appropriate' - that's my point. And now, we are not talking about bikes at all... I'm done. Sorry to take this so off topic... (and apparently I haven't quite figured out the quote function here...)

[ilima]

I agree with you, ginny. Sure, TE operates these forums and sets the rules as to what is and is not appropriate. But . . . while some things may be unambiguously prohibited, there is necessarily a fuzzy--and pliable--boundary between appropriate and not appropriate.

I don't think it's inconceivable that the administrators would, in part, look to the forums' users to help determine where that boundary is. And what is permitted may change over time.

What is and is not appropriate for the FS forum appears to be in a state of flux right now. I don't need another bike but I will still check out what bike4ever is selling. And her listings are almost exclusively women's bikes or bikes in small sizes, which seems appropriate for this site.

[ilima]

I think it's unfair to pull that post out of the context of it's thread. The OP in that thread was expressing frustration at selling a bike and bike4ever gave her some advice.

I've sold a couple of bikes on craigslist and some cycling stuff on ebay. And you know what, I cut and pasted from old ads, which served as a "template" for newer ads.

In my view, "commercial" would have been bike4ever listing her (non-existant) bike selling company or soliciting to sell the OP's bike for her. She did neither. She merely offered advice that was appropriate to the thread. I honestly don't see how you get "commercial" from the post you linked.

[Susan Otcenas]

I agree with attempting to deal with an administrator; however, I have tried that without success. I have answered their questions honestly, but someone still "complains" about my posts. I never hear back from the administrator when I reply to their requests.


Bike4Ever,

You and I have had a long string of email back & forth over the past 24 hours. I could post that string to prove a point, but I won't because that was a private conversation.

Frankly, I'm rather offended that you would say that you never hear back. That's not the way I conduct business, and it disappoints me that you would attempt to shame me in public.

I quite specifically apologized to you if we had inadvertently deleted a For Sale post for used personal items, and even invited you to re-post those personal items if you wanted to.

FOR THE RECORD:
We do not permit commercial posts on the forums. That's been a long running policy. However, I don't actively "police" the forums, nor do I want to. These issues are brought to me and other admins when someone (usually more than one person) complains, at which point we take action to keep the forums non-commercial.

Our policy is to delete the offending posts, and send a polite email asking the poster to keep her participation in the forums non-commercial. We don't ask people to leave, but rather to simply respect the policy.

Susan

[kermit]

I would much rather buy an item from someone that posts on this board and is known rather than an unknown entity. I hope it can be worked it out.

[fidlfreek]

Agreed Kermit!

I LOVE TE! I can ask questions here that i can't ask anywhere else! And I would be sad sad sad if people w/ expertise (for instance bike4ever) were driven away. They (and their knowledge) are an asset to the website. I have personally benefited from bike4ever's wisdom and want her to feel appreciated!

I think the solution is just to get bike4ever's OPs to do their own postings. I know, unfortunate, but maybe the middle ground?

FYI As a person who recently used TE to recycle (aka resell) a small WSD bike I would haven been very content to pay TE a small classifieds fee given that their forum was the perfect place to find a buyer!

[fastdogs]

I love to see the bikes you post for sale. The photos are great and all the info is there. If I had a bike for sale, I might ask you to post it for me because you do such a good job. I hate that stuff (posting things for sale).
You also post helpful advice, not just bike-for-sale posts. I hope you are allowed to keep posting when you have used bikes.
vickie

[tantrumbean]

Wow...not sure if this is down to cultural differences with this being a predominantly American forum, but I'm just amazed at all the comments like "you don't criticise admin", etc. I'm a member (and moderator) on cyclechat.co.uk, and I think people would probably stage a mass walkout if you told them they had to just accept every admin decision or weren't allowed to criticise admin/mods on the forum! Our life would be so much easier if everybody just accepted admin's voice as law!!! (Although I would miss the debate, the challenges and the occasional bunfights following moderators decisions!)

Then again, I'm new on this forum, and still getting used to the feel - I remember the "Proposition 8" thread disappearing some time ago, and being a bit baffled that you are not allowed to discuss stuff like this in the "Non-cycling" discussions - after all, it's called "non-cycling" and why can't things that are slightly controversial be discussed, even if the forum is mainly cycling related? Again, the Uk forums seem very different....

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with TE, if I did, I wouldn't be here! I just find it's very different and takes some getting used to - like living in permanent fluffy cloud land (which can be very nice ;)).

Sorry, this has gone a bit off topic and I don't really feel like I can comment on the original issue as I don't know enough about these FS posts. However, afaic if the OP has tried to take it up with admin and had no success, why should she not voice this on here?

[snapdragen]

Check the FAQ's, the forum rules are posted for all to see.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_policies

Political threads disappear quickly simply because as soon as they are posted, admin's email boxes fill up with complaints.

As for the OP, Susan has communicated with her, what more do you expect her to do? If the complaints were yours, and they were ignored how would you feel?

[tantrumbean]

That was my point exactly, this total fear of criticising anything - I do know the rules, I abide by them, but, as far as I know, I don't necessarily have to agree with all of them (unless that's a rule I have missed!)!

Again, I was not having a dig at this forum, members or admin - I just pointed out that it feels very strange to me!

And like I said, I don't know enough about what's gone on with the OP to feel like I can have a very informed opinion, I just don't necessarily see a problem with her bringing it to the forum if she feels that admin are not giving her the explanations she wants (and this is based on my very limited knowledge of what's gone on, therefore I might very well be wrong, but at the end of the day, it's my personal view...)

[Tuckervill]

I appreciate the forum rules, because I love that there is very little flaming or personal attacks here, and that the subject at hand is what is discussed. I love the off-topic discussions, and I love them best because no one is trying to antagonize anyone else.

Susan, thank you, again, for providing this forum.

Karen

[Susan Otcenas]

, I just don't necessarily see a problem with her bringing it to the forum if she feels that admin are not giving her the explanations she want

Tantrumbean,

Thank you for expressing your thoughts. It's appreciated, not discouraged.

I *did* just want to point out, however, that the OP *did* receive a response from me via a series of PMs. (Please re-read my post from earlier today.) My feeling is that she didn't like the response, hence the public airing of her displeasure.

Incidentally, I don't mind some criticism or a genuine (non-flame-war) discussion of policies. I don't believe that any of the admins intentionally try to stifle discussion of those policies. But as long as a policy exists, we will enforce it.

Susan

[Pedal Wench]

B. That's not the way I conduct business, and it disappoints me that you would attempt to shame me in public.



There is nothing that could be said that would ever cause me to doubt the way TE conducts business. I shop here because of the customer service and the people behind the product. People who know you will not let one comment change the way we view this company, and the people who run it.

[maillotpois]

There is nothing that could be said that would ever cause me to doubt the way TE conducts business. I shop here because of the customer service and the people behind the product. People who know you will not let one comment change the way we view this company, and the people who run it.

+ eleventy billion.

[SadieKate]

+ eleventy billion.I raise you a gazillion.

[tantrumbean]

Tantrumbean,

Thank you for expressing your thoughts. It's appreciated, not discouraged.

I *did* just want to point out, however, that the OP *did* receive a response from me via a series of PMs. (Please re-read my post from earlier today.) My feeling is that she didn't like the response, hence the public airing of her displeasure.

Incidentally, I don't mind some criticism or a genuine (non-flame-war) discussion of policies. I don't believe that any of the admins intentionally try to stifle discussion of those policies. But as long as a policy exists, we will enforce it.

Susan

Fair enough, like I said, I don't know all the facts of what's been going on, so therefore my opinion is going to be biased one way or another.

Also, I don't actually think that admin are trying to stifle discussion of policies - those discussions just appear not to happen for some reason (or haven't to my knowledge in the short time I have been here). Again, I can only reiterate that is not a necessarily a problem, maybe it just means everybody is a happy bunny - it's just totally NOT what I'm used to and feels a bit unreal! Surely people must disagree on things occasionally (not just policies, but in general)????

[Veronica]

Oh yeah people disagree. We just tend to be civil about it.

Veronica

[crazycanuck]

I have a small idea for the for sale area.

Over at BNA, a person needs to have at least 10 posts prior to selling anything on the forum. It is possible to think about that one here?? I see someone with only one post selling something & think..who is this person & why should i buy from them? We've had a few of those here haven't we?


It's just a thought.

[singletrackmind]

If it helps any Bike4Ever is heavily involved in the biking community here, especially promoting women's cycling. I don't know her as a friend but I know of her and I've seen her many a time at the Trailnet rides working on people's bikes and I've noticed the many women's mountain bike rides she's led. Nearly every time I've seen her she's helping someone out. Seems that's just how she is. I'll be honored when I finally get the chance to ride in one of her groups. :)


My 2 cents, just 'cause we've not all met everyone here and while she might not be going about things the right way on this issue, she's still a decent person who'd be good to know, if you get the chance.

[Kalidurga]

I've been following this thread the past few days and one thing has kind of struck me in the conversation.

People have mentioned that it's very generous of Team Estrogen to have created a forum on their dime. Other people have compared the feel at this forum to other cycling boards. What seems to be being overlooked is that this message board is not affiliated with a group or organization, it is affiliated with an on-line store. Personally, I'm impressed not by the fact that they created a free message board, but by the fact that they felt it benefited the forum to create a FS section.

Amongst the many functions that it serves for us, this message board is a marketing tool for TE. While the FS posts in question in this thread are for an item category that TE doesn't sell (bikes), other items have been posted that could be considered to be in direct conflict with the Team Estrogen on-line store. To me, that's what's generous of the TE folks, that they don't seem to be highly concerned about that competition and apparently willingly created a place for board members to trade and sell used items, many of which are from the same categories as the TE store. While I don't feel strongly one way or the other about the specific situation in this thread (though I will say the original post reminded me a teeny bit of Smurf's recent hurt feelings/I'm leaving post), I do think that says something about the character of the people running both the on-line store and the forum.

[tantrumbean]

Amongst the many functions that it serves for us, this message board is a marketing tool for TE.

Exactly, it's a marketing tool - therefore I'm sure TE have looked very closely at how the forum benefits them as a company. If there was any danger of the FS section having a serious impact on their profits, I suspect it would not be here. However, chances are the benefits of people attracted to the forum partly by the FS section far outweigh any potentially lost sales. Afaic it's no different to companies giving away freebies - they might have sold those items instead, but gain more in the long run by giving away a certain amount of goods for free.

I haven't got a problem with that, at the end of the day, it's perfectly clear when you sign up that the forum is affiliated to a store, you know what you get - I'm just too cynical to take it at face value and believe it's all just a random act of kindness.

[Selkie]

I'm curious about one thing: IIRC and excepting the recent used/unused bike that someone never took out of the box :confused:, the OP's numerous bike FS ads have promised that the bikes are 'professionally boxed' prior to shipment. If the OP's shop is boxing the bike and charging for it, then the FS ads are in violation of the Forum rules. Therefore, this is not "personal," it's a matter of abiding by the guidelines, which is a reasonable expectation of anyone making use of a free service.

I still wonder why the OP would threaten to leave the board because of this. I'm sure others have had posts removed, for whatever reason, and remained active members. It's also very troubling that the OP would take this public & accuse others of "targeting" her, knowing that it would potentially make the Admins look unreasonable.

[jobob]

Precisely. :cool:

[alpinerabbit]

+1

And now folks, move on, after 45 posts, there's nothing more to see here....
http://home.arcor.de/m-g-b/Bilder/london/bobby.jpg

[ilima]

I'm curious about one thing: IIRC and excepting the recent used/unused bike that someone never took out of the box :confused:, the OP's numerous bike FS ads have promised that the bikes are 'professionally boxed' prior to shipment. If the OP's shop is boxing the bike and charging for it, then the FS ads are in violation of the Forum rules. Therefore, this is not "personal," it's a matter of abiding by the guidelines, which is a reasonable expectation of anyone making use of a free service.

I still wonder why the OP would threaten to leave the board because of this. I'm sure others have had posts removed, for whatever reason, and remained active members. It's also very troubling that the OP would take this public & accuse others of "targeting" her, knowing that it would potentially make the Admins look unreasonable.

That's your interpretation. I wouldn't think it strange at all if a private "personal" party selling a bike paid to have it professionally packaged to ensure it would survive the trip via UPS or FedEx. Just seems prudent and not "commercial" to me.

Take a look at ebay, for example. It's common sense to pay someone to pack up an expensive item professionally.

I find this whole thread rather strange. And I agree with tantrumbean that it's very weird the way people are jumping on the "follow the rules" bandwagon. Americans (and I am one) are just plain weird about "rules."

[Veronica]

If you had a guest in your home and you had asked them to stop swearing in front of your children and they didn't, what would you do?

This forum is not ours. It belongs to TE. We are guests in their "home" and as such we need to abide by their rules.

Veronica

[SadieKate]

And if prior to holding a private conversation, they publicly berated you for asking you not to swear in front of their children, what would you do?

My teacher father always swore that he ran a democratic classroom with full freedom of choice. You could do what he said or get out. I'm an American and not weird about "rules" when in someone else's business, home, classroom, etc. It's simple courtesy and respect to obide by them.

[Mr. Bloom]

This forum is not ours. It belongs to TE. We are guests in their "home" and as such we need to abide by their rules.


There's an additional consideration:


The Admins have a life! Let's not impose an unnecessary burden on them by pushing the envelope.


This group generally does a good job of self-policing the debates...and frankly I'm concerned that Susan felt in a position to have to actually defend her actions in the debate. JMHO

[jobob]

I find this whole thread rather strange.

That, I will agree with you.

Actually I will go as far to say that I find this thread disturbing and downright disgusting.


And I agree with tantrumbean that it's very weird the way people are jumping on the "follow the rules" bandwagon. Americans (and I am one) are just plain weird about "rules."

Well, that's where you lost me.

It's not rules, it's courtesy.
It's consideration.
It's respect.

You think that's weird?

Well, then maybe you would be happier at another forum.

[Cataboo]

I think you're all weird that we should have 4 pages of people going back on this. And I don't think this thread should degenerate to suggesting other people need to find another forum as well.

Yes, this forum is a courtesy provided by team estrogen that I'm quite happy to have found and be on - but let's not forget that this forum also brings team estrogen quite a lot in terms of customers and advertising. Many women who would not necessarily have found team estrogen for buying clothing or whatever (because... the prices are often the same as the local bike shop or rei... the selection is definitely better), have found this forum through searching on the internet looking for comfortable saddle reviews or something like that... have found the forum to be a great resource, and have thus chose to support team estrogen's store. And I think it's a great strategy by the owners of team estrogen - they provide a service to the community and build a base of customers simultaneously.

As for biking selling, I really am not bothered too much either way. I like for old bikes to get recycled to new owners that would be happy to love them. I bought a frame off here that I'm quite happy with. It does say in the rules no commercial postings - but I know I've posted a couple of times items that were going to end up on ebay if I don't sell them here and stated it. Does that make me a commercial seller? I don't buy anything specifically to resell on here or ebay, but I do try to clear out stuff that I'm not using and I'm usually happy to break even or lose a little bit. If my sister wants to sell her old bike rack - can I post it on here, or should I have her make a new account, make at least 10 posts so you guys know who she is and then post it to sell?

[jobob]

It does say in the rules no commercial postings - but I know I've posted a couple of times items that were going to end up on ebay if I don't sell them here and stated it. Does that make me a commercial seller?

You're losing sight of what started all this in the first place. You're talking about selling a few of your own things here.

If I understand it correctly, the OP has been selling items on behalf of other people, many things, and thus acting as a dealer.

Like you pointed out, it says in the forum rules no commercial postings. According to her own posts, a couple of pages back :) ,Susan did discuss the matter with the OP (contrary to the OP's assertions).

But the OP didn't like Susan's decision. Apparently the OP didn't think the forum policy should apply to her, so she went to the forum to try to paint Susan as unfair and unresponsive. Those of us who know Susan (even only slightly, like myself), know that she is neither.

Some of us, myself included, have been up in arms about this it is because we admire and respect Susan and deeply appreciate what she is doing for the women's cycling community by hosting this forum. Jeff and Susan set up some forum rules and policies with the assumption that posters would act like grownups and accept those policies as a condition of being here. The only condition of being here.

Speaking only for myself, I'm dismayed at how easily some people here are willing to disregard and second-guess and re-interpret the requests of our hosts. Jeff and Susan deserve better.

[snapdragen]

You know, I'm developing a headache from beating my head against a wall here.

Many of us have posted items for sale, that's what the For Sale/Wanted forum is for. But, when a bike shop manager posts 9 different bikes for sale, the alarms go off, the complaints pour in. After receiving a number of said complaints, I deleted her posts. It's done, it's over, let's move on.

[lauraelmore1033]

As my son would say: Dead horse smoothie...

[ilima]

That, I will agree with you.

Actually I will go as far to say that I find this thread disturbing and downright disgusting.



Well, that's where you lost me.

It's not rules, it's courtesy.
It's consideration.
It's respect.

You think that's weird?

Well, then maybe you would be happier at another forum.

Who exactly do you think you are to tell me to go to another forum?

Yes, I realize Susan/te provides this forum and others volunteer to be moderators. For that I am grateful.

But I was also under the impression this was a community. A community with fluid boundaries of decorum.

You are exactly the type of "rules" person I find baffling. The type that doesn't realize that rules are never meant to apply to 100% of situations. Rules are meant to apply to the vast majority of situations, but not all. And that's the problem.

Rules folks like yourself think they are black and white "well it says right here" without even trying to logically think about said rule. Sometimes rules need interpretation (hello Supreme Court for an example!).

I like the genial demeanor of this forum. But I have found this thread strange in many ways.

I have always been very happy with the customer service from te and will continue to order from here (although it's been quite a few months). Perhaps I will stick to RBR, though.

[SadieKate]

I like the genial demeanor of this forum. But I have found this thread strange in many ways.But isn't that the point? It wasn't "genial" of the OP to attack her host. I kinda like the rule that says you don't attack your host unless they are about to commit bodily harm.

I don't know any other specifics about the OP's behavior except what's been posted, but I did witness the lack of courtesy by the OP - and I'm really surprised at the people who seem to think this is acceptable.

[tantrumbean]

I think part of the problem is that there are now (at least) two different issues on this thread that have got mixed up:

One: The commercial selling aspect. This is clearly not allowed and if it has been established for sure that that is what the OP is doing, then obviously TE is totally within their rights to remove those posts. That's clearly covered in the forum guidelines, makes perfect sense and therefore should not really require too much discussion (apart from the fact that the OP's idea to what constitutes a commercial post does not necessarily match admins). I have not seen the posts, but I can see that there might potentially be a grey area.

Point 2 is the discussion if this should have been discussed publicly on the forum or not. Now that both admin and the op have stated what happened, it's pretty clear that there are two different versions of the story. I don't know which one is the right one, but both parties clearly feel they have done what they should have done to sort it out. Which leaves the discussion about should forum members be allowed to take things public when they feel (note the word: "feel") that they have not had the response they feel the issue warrants from admin.

Afaic that is a completely different point and has not necessary anything to do with the OP at all, it's a general issue that could probly apply to lots of situations.

I thinks it's throwing both those issues in the same pot that's caused this discussion to get quite heated and possibly caused members to misunderstand each others responses.

Maybe it would be worth adding a "Feedback" or "TE office" subforum, most forums I know have these, and it might be a good place to post anything from "Could the background colour be changed, I'm struggling to see it", "Anybody else having problems with the forum running slow?" to "Why was I not allowed to sell my puppy on here" and it would possible make some of the decisions taken in the background more transparent and a more public conversation with admin would allow everybody to get their views across.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Many of us have posted items for sale, that's what the For Sale/Wanted forum is for. But, when a bike shop manager posts 9 different bikes for sale, the alarms go off, the complaints pour in.

I agree.
I think this whole thread should be deleted. It's really a matter between the forum owners and the OP and doesn't need to be endlessly dissected and debated by the rest of us.

[Tuckervill]

Yep, I'm with Lisa. It's a bit of poison in an otherwise tranquil lake.

Karen

[snapdragen]

I agree.
I think this whole thread should be deleted. It's really a matter between the forum owners and the OP and doesn't need to be endlessly dissected and debated by the rest of us.


Yep, I'm with Lisa. It's a bit of poison in an otherwise tranquil lake.

Karen

Put it on ignore, hopefully it will die a quick death and not get resurrected.

[Pedal Wench]

It's Susan and Jeff's sandbox - we just get to play in it.

[fidlfreek]

Wow. I love getting to know people over the course of such an elaborate discussion!! Yet another reason I love TE!!!

One point: whether or not it was commercial, whether or not it was OK or not, etc etc etc. At the heart of the matter if I am seriously shopping for a bike I am going to be all over roadbikereview, ebay, craigslist, etc. Its just overkill to list two places at once. Really.

[Cataboo]

Not that I really feel that I should extend this discussion (but yet I can't resist this train wreck). I think to some extent Bike4ever bringing this up publicly is valid since her messages are being flagged, which is what's alerting the mods to them to delete them. It's not like she can explain what she's selling and why to the people that are flagging her posts, any other way than to start a thread on it. So now the people who are flagging her, know her side of the story. We didn't really need to know the details of her interactions with the forum moderators or owners though.

And since as far as I can tell, even though I haven't been around here very long... Bike4ever's really helpful & knowledgable with her suggestions, I think we should all give her the benefit of the doubt and not instantly suspect her of nefarious commercial selling or attack her or anyone else over this. I'm sure that the bike shop she works for has way more than the 8 or 9 bikes she's listed on here for sale.

[pinkbikes]

Not that I really feel that I should extend this discussion (but yet I can't resist this train wreck). I think to some extent Bike4ever bringing this up publicly is valid since her messages are being flagged, which is what's alerting the mods to them to delete them. It's not like she can explain what she's selling and why to the people that are flagging her posts, any other way than to start a thread on it. So now the people who are flagging her, know her side of the story. We didn't really need to know the details of her interactions with the forum moderators or owners though.

And since as far as I can tell, even though I haven't been around here very long... Bike4ever's really helpful & knowledgable with her suggestions, I think we should all give her the benefit of the doubt and not instantly suspect her of nefarious commercial selling or attack her or anyone else over this. I'm sure that the bike shop she works for has way more than the 8 or 9 bikes she's listed on here for sale.

+1 Couldn't have said it better myself!

[Veronica]

So rules only apply to people who are new to the forum and only to people who ask for advice, not to those who give it? What if they give bad advice, does that count?

Veronica

[Cataboo]

So rules only apply to people who are new to the forum and only to people who ask for advice, not to those who give it? What if they give bad advice, does that count?

Veronica

Nope, I said to give her the benefit of a doubt, not to let her run rampant all over the forums doing whatever she wants. Assume honesty and not guilt.

It's part of being civil about a dispute.

If a newly created account posts 8 bikes to sell, then go ahead and assume the worst about their motivations.

And if a newly created account posts 8 bikes to sell and hates on steel, mixtes, ti bikes, and wool, then we should just go ahead and stone them.

[Running Mommy]

not that I should be adding to this.. but I just can't help myself.
Seems someone got her hand caught in the cookie jar, and now is upset about the "punishment".
I remember last fall, nov/ december maybe there were ad's for some small womens bikes- I want to say trek wsd models, but my memory is fuzzy. I remember that the seller had multiple units of the same bike for sale.That seemed VERY commercial to me. I remember thinking that I didn't feel it was appropriate to use the forum in that way.
I can't remember if that seller was the OP, but I think it was???
I put my old used road bike up once, but it's a 5 yr old specialized so hardly a commercial post.
Heck I have a few 08 models I'd love to get rid of, and a boatload of sugoi clothing taking up space on my racks. But I would NEVER think of posting that stuff here. It just wouldn't be right.
I'm sure that the OP is a great person, and she has offered me advice in the past. But there are rules people. Rules... And when it's known that you work in a shop your FS items are going to be scrutinized a bit more than others. Esp. if you post FS items often. I would think anyway??
Cheers to all.

Oh- and I have spoken with Susan on the phone in the past about some charity items. She is my role model! A very warm caring person, and a savvy businesswoman too!

[SadieKate]

Oh gawd, I thought this was dead.


Not that I really feel that I should extend this discussion (but yet I can't resist this train wreck). I think to some extent Bike4ever bringing this up publicly is valid since her messages are being flagged, which is what's alerting the mods to them to delete them. .Before she has a private discussion with Susan? Color me astonished.

. . . .


And since as far as I can tell, even though I haven't been around here very long... Bike4ever's really helpful & knowledgable with her suggestions, I think we should all give her the benefit of the doubt and not instantly suspect her of nefarious commercial selling or attack her or anyone else over this. . . . . I'm sure she's been helpful, but that doesn't excuse the public attack on her host.

Susan is probably one of the most approachable people/business owners I've ever spoken to. I can't imagine any reason anyone needs to publicly state a beef about her decisions and her forum before talking to her.

Mods, can we kill the thread?

I don't think I'll ever understand this new way of thinking that the anonymity of the internet gives one permission to disobey common rules of courtesy.

[Susan Otcenas]

Mods, can we kill the thread?

As much as I might like to see the thread die, closing the thread would regrettably play into the hands of members who feel like we (admins) are squashing an open discussion of policies.

So, no matter what I do, I'd make someone unhappy or mad or sad or threaten to leave. None of which I'd like to see happen.

I'd very much like to thank everyone for their frankness. And for the most part, the discussion has stayed quite civil, which again, I thank you for. Over the years, one of things I've been most impressed about is how civil these forums are, so unlike so many other forums on the internet. I'd like to think it's because we've found so much more to celebrate as a community, rather than finding discord in our differences.

As someone pointed out in an earlier post, the thread seems to have split somewhat into 2 parts. 1) a discussion of the OP selling potentially commercial items on the forums, which is not a permitted practice, and 2) a discussion of how policies are developed and reviewed on the forums.

In regards to point one - as I've stated, our policy is to not permit commercial posts. Period. We happily and freely provide a For Sale/Wanted section on the forums for the buying/selling/trading of used personal items. We have no intent to charge for that service. I'm delighted to hear that so many people have had successful transactions finding a new home for someone else's unwanted items. Unfortunately for the OP, she has, over many months, listed items that were "new", "test-ridden", "professionally boxed", etc., sometimes in multiple units. Because of the overwhelmingly commercial appearance of these posts, those postings were moderated. The OP was not asked to leave the forums. As many have noted, her advice and input over her time in the forums have been very valuable to many in the forum community, and we are delighted to have her be a part of it. What's important for everyone to understand is that we would have moderated the offending For Sale posts, REGARDLESS of her tenure here on the forums.

As to point two (discussion of how policies are developed and reviewed on the forums), I'm very torn about what to do about this. The democratic thing for me to do would be to create a subforum where these types of discussions could take place. I'm *somewhat* open to that idea. My reservation about it, if I may be so frank, is that the reality is that administering these forums is not my full-time job. I have a business to run, a task that requires all of my concentration in the current economic climate. I don't think that any of the forum's current rules are onerous, and having the rules in place has so far allowed these forums to run pretty much autonomously for quite a few years. So, again speaking frankly, I feel like I would be creating a solution (a subforum) in search of a problem that isn't that much of a problem.

It's Monday, I have a boatload of paperwork on my desk, so I'm off to get some work done.

I hope everyone has a wonderful day, complete with sunshine and tailwinds.

Susan