How much do looks define your self-image?

[lph]

I was thinking of posting this on the "best bike advice"-thread, but I felt it was getting a bit heated and this isn't directed at anyone in particular, just a spin-off.

Ok, so society's superficial norms tell us that young women are hot, older women aren't. That is annoying to most of us, since we can't avoid aging and it doesn't seem to apply to men, not as much at least. But why are we so obsessed about being hot in the first place? If at 40 or 50 or 60 you have a good career and/or a loving family and/or good friends or in general a good satisfying life, why should it bother you if you're not considered as smoking as when you were 25? Aren't we just buying into the whole "beauty rules the world"-idea?

What I love about both biking and climbing is that moves focus from what you look like to what you can do. It has the added bonus of making your body look better, but that's a side effect of being out there and DOING lots of stuff. Biking is an endurance sport, we can do this until we keel over from old age. Sure, I'm not thrilled about getting gray hair, wrinkles and a thicker middle, but the improvement I still can make in my own physical fitness, and the stuff this allows me to do, way outweighs this.

At work and running out of points, but if anyone wants to join in, feel free.

[Mr. Bloom]

I think the superficial norms you refer to are media hype and not mainstream belief. Superficial people hold on to those icons...not mainstream folks.

I acknowledge that the hype doesn't apply it in the same way to men...but I assure you that men apply the same standard to themselves. Barbara Walters (I think??) interviewed Paul Newman and essentially asked him if he knew what a hottie he was...his response was "I feel ancient"... I could only hope to be half as ancient as him at that age.:cool:

Don't confuse "hot" with "attractive" or "desirable"...what made Paul Newman desirable as he aged was an attitude, an energy, and a graceful disposition.

I think of Sarah Cannon (Minnie Pearl)... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Cannon)there was nothing "hot" about her or her character, but when she walked into a room, the room was filled with her grace and class...and she had LOTS of it.

Attractiveness comes from within, in the attitude...not from age or media hype

JMHO;)

PS: Sorry, I've not followed the "best bike advice" thread...

[uforgot]

Don't confuse "hot" with "attractive" or "desirable"...what made Paul Newman desirable as he aged was an attitude, an energy, and a graceful disposition.

I think of Sarah Cannon (Minnie Pearl)... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Cannon)there was nothing "hot" about her or her character, but when she walked into a room, the room was filled with her grace and class...and she had LOTS of it.

Attractiveness comes from within, in the attitude...not from age or media hype

JMHO;)

PS: Sorry, I've not followed the "best bike advice" thread...

Well said, Mr. Silver. You should go read the best advice thread. Your quote belongs there.

[lph]

yup, but I think they affect us more than we like to acknowledge.

I happened to think of a reality show I surfed into on tv one night, where the big challenge, and the chance to win a large cash prize, involved the woman (of a couple) cutting her hair in a pretty wild haircut. To begin with they were all gung-ho and rah-rah about this, but when the hairdresser was actually standing there with a shaver... 2 out of 3 refused. You could see that this went beyond a game and suddenly became very serious to them, and they got weepy and upset. Looks do matter a lot, to very many women.

But hey, I'd be happy to be told that this isn't a big issue. :)

[OakLeaf]

Hair is funny because it can change so radically so quickly. Even though it will grow back out (for most people), there's no hiding it for those weeks or months until it does. You don't get wrinkles, gain weight, get b00bsag, whatever, in 30 minutes without any ability to process the change emotionally, but your hair affects your appearance just as much as those things.

I've definitely had haircuts that have left me in tears, and pretty recently too. Granted a large part of it was tears of frustation with I think six consecutive stylists in my new town who gave me truly horrible haircuts.

Losing a chunk of my breast - even the relatively small chunk of a biopsy - has definitely affected me emotionally. Although of course it's hard to say how much of that is just the appearance (definitely some) and how much seeing it triggers all the emotions that went with it.

I think it's only natural. Look at the displays that animals go through to change their appearance, both voluntary things like puffing out fur, spreading a cobra's hood, etc.; semi-voluntary things like when an animal pumps blood to an area to change its color; and involuntary things like seasonal variations in plumage. Putting on a suit to go to court used to feel like donning a suit of armor (and if you know any mediaeval or classical literature, traditionally there are extended arming scenes where the hero puts on his armor, but also metaphorically and emotionally prepares himself for the conflict).

All anyone has to do is ask yourself whether you'd wear the same clothes to clean toilets and to go to a charity ball, and you have your answer as to how much appearance matters. You can't say that clothes matter but the body underneath doesn't. We don't have to like it, but I think we do have to acknowledge it.

[Miranda]

Hair is funny because it can change so radically so quickly. Even though it will grow back out (for most people), there's no hiding it for those weeks or months until it does. You don't get wrinkles, gain weight, get b00bsag, whatever, in 30 minutes without any ability to process the change emotionally, but your hair affects your appearance just as much as those things.

I've definitely had haircuts that have left me in tears, and pretty recently too. Granted a large part of it was tears of frustation with I think six consecutive stylists in my new town who gave me truly horrible haircuts.



I am still thinking about my overall response to this thread. Good one, lph.

However, Oakleaf...

I am a natural redhead. If you ask Mr. Google, only 1-2% of human world population is born that way. All my life, it has been the one thing I consider to be a uniqueness that makes me... "me".

Well, short of the story, major disaster with the hairdresser and finding a good new one is a freakin nightmare. Here's a tip someone gave to me, that I recently just applied...

The next time you are out and see some woman with beautiful hair you lust after etc., go talk to her. Pay her the compliment of her beautiful hair, and then ask who is her stylist. IME the woman will be flattered, and happy to tell you where to go find the stylist.

When you find this person, do not make the first meeting the actual hair cut appointment. Call ahead and/or stop by to meet the person. Some do a consult appointment. Get their opinion, and get a vibe of how the two of you gel together... and/or look at her client that might be there at the time. IF all that feels "ok", then proceed with a basic trim appointment. If you feel good about that, then do the next one to something else if desired.

Signed,
Miranda
Neurotic Vain Hair Person
:o:rolleyes:

[Bruno28]

Alternatively - wait until your hair is such a disaster area that you are forced to walk into the nearest hairdresser and ask for 'something short and easy to manage'

Realise that even the worst haircut will grow out in a matter of a couple of weeks.

Bruno - who's really not that comfortable with people invading her personal space.

Imagine my reaction to my friend's suggestion we have a pre-wedding spa day. (Her response - 'I sense your buttocks are clenching') :o

[OakLeaf]

walk into the nearest hairdresser and ask for 'something short and easy to manage'

Uh-uh. My hair is short and spectacularly easy to manage. I had no idea how much skill it takes to cut it until I learned the hard way!

Thanks, Miranda - part of that equation is also making sure the person you ask has hair like yours, too - thick or thin, coarse or fine, whether the cut is traditional or contemporary, etc. I did that once but unfortunately her stylist wasn't taking any new clients.

I've finally found someone who does a pretty good job with my hair and I'm sticking with him... even though his salon is dirty, he smells like cigarette smoke and he's constantly complaining about his son's mother, politics, or something. It's totally worth it to tolerate the nasty environment once every three or four weeks, to get a decent haircut. :p

[Aggie_Ama]

The most gorgeous man on the planet to me (other than my husband) will forever be George Strait. He refuses to change who he is for anyone or anything, it is pure class. I loved him even more when I bowled a league with his son and never knew it was his son until I opened my "Strait out of the box" booklet and saw his picture. The most unpretentious, unassuming, millionaire's kid at A&M. Maybe Mom and Dad don't let him have any money or maybe it just says something about them. Like Paul Newman was gorgeous into his 80's but you have to admit what really made you listen was he had something to say!

Funny thing is I dye my hair because it going grey (RAPIDLY) and I like the natural highlight color but not the natural color. But I don't do much of anything else with it. It is long and pin straight. I feel a bit embarrassed because one co-worker is in love with it and I just brush it and let it be. She would die to have it. I feel the best when I braid it in pigtails because the "pochahantas" braids make DH laugh and he LOVES them, it is his favorite way to see my hair. I feel sexy but I look 5 years old! :p

I wear eye makeup but it is the same every day- neutral shadow, brown liner, dark brown mascara. I don't know why I do it, maybe for me, maybe for society. I rarely put on lipstick or blush. I wear foundation but it serves a dual purpose of being SPF 20. ;) I am getting wrinkles suddenly but I try not to dwell on them like some of my friends or co-workers.

I hate getting complimented on my d-cup chest. My mom's family is well endowed, I didn't get to chose the gene pool. I much rather hear "You look so fit" than my a-cup friend say she would kill for my chest. I work hard to minimize the big thighs my dad also has so compliment me on how I have lost weight cycling or running because that is something I actually work for and am proud of!

To the original question. My age group of co-workers is obsessed with these pop-tart celebs. Talking about how skinny Paris or who ever is. I really don't care what they wear, how they eat, what they drive. I wear what I wear, I do what I do. So I am a bit of an odd duck for a 28 year old but I am happy to be the weirdo, I don't obssess about why I am not a size 2. I don't blow my paycheck on the jeans of the week. But it is out there and it is sad- IMO.

[redrhodie]

That thread got me thinking, too. Society may not think I'm as hot as I was at 20, but I FEEL hotter now. If given the choice, I would not go back to my younger self. I feel stronger than ever, and I think I look better than ever, too.

So, I guess I am still defined by my self image, but that image is finally something I like, not something I want to change. Who would have thought, that the girl who hated her appearance for so many years, would finally be able to feel this way! Yay for getting older!

[short cut sally]

Well said Mr. Silver...

I did feel better about myself say about 3 years ago, when I just lost 40#'s, and could fit into those "skinny jeans" -ok, my version of skinny jeans. I've gained some weight back, but I am still considering myself in better shape now than what I was in high school. I played sports too in school. I am presently 42.

[indysteel]

I think the average person wants to feel pretty or attractive on some level, but what that means probably differs from person to person. For some, they may be fixated on what society--or what they perceive society--sees as attractive. Others may see their attractiveness as a function of their fitness, energy, and overall health. Others may see it solely as something that you project from the inside. Still others may see it as a combination of all those things.

I will admit that I've been plagued at times with self-image problems. I've fixated, to greater on lesser degrees, on things that I perceive as being physically "wrong" with me. The best way that I can describe it is that there are days where my self image is extremely distorted. I've taken both healthy and unhealthy approaches to deal with these problems. It's taken me a long time to come to some degree of peace about it, and to be honest, I think it's something that I'll never entirely put to bed.

If you asked me on a good day whether my self esteem is based on my looks, I'd give an emphatic "no." But when I'm having an ugly day--and thankfully they don't happen all that often now--I feel like poo. For instance, I currently wear braces. I didn't have them as a kid, but I decided to get them as an adult to fix some functional and cosmetic issues that had long bothered me. Most days, I don't give them or my appearance with them much thought. On the days that my orthodontist wants to go over my progress by showing me all manner of unflattering pictures of both the inside and outside of my mouth, I just want to crawl under a rock. It usually takes me a day or two to rebound.

I'm not proud of this, necessarily, and to be honest, I don't usually talk about this stuff with anyone. I'd been in therapy for five years before I brought it up--and there was nothing else that I kept from her. So, at least for me, there's a lot of shame associated with these feelings.

I have to be VERY careful with this stuff when it comes to my boyfriend. While he's very complimentary, I don't want to rely on what he says or think too much, or at all. While I appreciate his compliments, the "solution" to these issues doesn't lie with affirmation from other people. It is up to me--and only me--to change my own thinking about myself.

Wow; I must really trust you ladies (and Mr. Silver :)) to have just shared all that.......

[eclectic]

That thread got me thinking, too. Society may not think I'm as hot as I was at 20, but I FEEL hotter now. If given the choice, I would not go back to my younger self. I feel stronger than ever, and I think I look better than ever, too.

So, I guess I am still defined by my self image, but that image is finally something I like, not something I want to change. Who would have thought, that the girl who hated her appearance for so many years, would finally be able to feel this way! Yay for getting older!

Yeah redrhodie! ! ! !

Since I turned 50 I do feel waaaaay better about myself. I look in the mirror and think - you look pretty darn good for 52!

I do dye my hair, when I was younger I said I never would, but it faded to a very unattractive mousey gray that isn't pretty on anyone and I felt dragged me down.
I let my hair grow just for convenience - it is has a lot of natural curl (think poodle when it is short) so wearing it long and being able to ponytail or french braid it is much simpler

I am trying to lose weight partially for looks but a lot more so I can ride up hills faster and run faster.

And, Yes, I do have to admit it feels good to look "HOT" once in awhile. I am single and it is an ego boost to get "hit on" by guys in their 30's. And no . . . it wasn't that dark in there :D

But at the end of the day it isn't how hot you look - as Mr Silver said - it is what your personality is - a lot of "hot" people get pretty ugly after you get to know them.

Here is a story on how much value a lot of people put on looks.
True BTW the poor ex-husband works w/ a friend of mine

When they filed for divorce she put in the decree that he was to pay for her to get breast implants because in her words "she had to be on the market again and needed to look her best" (I guess she didn't care if they knew what color her eyes were)

Unbelievingly the judge upheld the request :eek: the only thing he changed was she pay for 1/2 and the ex-husband pay for 1/2.

Unbeknownst to her she is being snickered about a lot behind her back that she is that shallow and he was smart to be rid of her.
BUT she does get a lot of dates.

I, on the other hand, am now happy to be a B - they don't sag, I can run w/o a bra, and they don't define who I am as a woman AND I can button up all my shirts, and the mammogram only takes 2 shots per side . . . need I go on?

[Aggie_Ama]

I do know a lot of women who feel much better about themselves after getting implants, which I think is a perfectly fine reason to get plastic surgery. I knew someone who got a nose job, same thing. She didn't obsess over it or discuss it to the point of making us sick. She just did it and then told us once. It was the end of it. I just feel awkward and even annoyed somedays being complimented on something I didn't ask for that I find a bit trivial. And I do have a friend that I love dearly that is absolutely obssessed with wanting implants to the point that I think it is unhealthy. In the five years we have been friends my breasts and her lack of has been discussed more times than I really think is appropriate. I still cherish her friendship but I tell her about it. I also tell her if she does buy herself implants I don't think it will solve the true problem (but probably not in such a blunt way). She knows she has self-esteem issues.

Now when the only cousin (there are 5 kids) that didn't getting blue eyes goes on about my blue eyes, I laugh! And I do relish compliments on my blue eyes, they are just like my dad's. Probably why I wear make up every day, they have drawn compliments all my life. So I guess we all have the potential to be vain. :p

[beccaB]

My hair is turning silver and I think it is a bright vibrant color, and actually pretty. It makes my plain brown hair more interesting. But it amazes me how many people have noticed it and asked me if I will get it colored! I am NOT into that kind of maintenance!
If you want to experience what being superficial is, ride on a school bus and listen to pre-teens. I am shocked and appalled at their belief system and how easily they voice their opinions, however misguided.

[sfa]

Kinda just blathering here, so forgive me if I never get around to making a point.....

How I look does at least partially define my self image (maybe it's a redhead thing? When you go through your whole life with people pointing you out as "she's the redhead over there" it's hard NOT to see that as part of who you are!), but hot=looks doesn't enter into the equation. How I look is more like, um, I make sure I brush my teeth before leaving the house, and if I'm going to work and it's not a swimming day, then I'll put on makeup (but never eye makeup because I rub my eyes when I get stressed and who wants to look like a raccoon? I don't bother with makeup on swimming days because if I'm swimming at lunch, the makeup will all disappear anyway, so what's the point?). And I DO give thought to what I wear, but more so that what I wear fits the occasion--I'll wear khakis or jeans if I'm in an all-day training session, or suits if I have an outside meeting, or dress pants and sweaters on most other days (skirts and nice t-shirts in the summer). So I guess my looks are heavily influenced by practicality.

But I don't think that "hot" has really all that much to do with looks, but with how a person presents herself (or himself). If hot was about being skinny and young, then I was super-hot 20 years ago. Except I wasn't. I was awkward and often unsure of myself. I was confident in my intellectual abilities, but not my physical abilities or social skills, and that showed. I think "hot" happens when those three things align--self confidence in physical, intellectual and social abilities (even, I might add, in the absence of any particular SKILL in those areas--it's about self confidence).

Case in point is my SIL who is probably one of the most physically unattractive people I've ever met. She's short, has a kind of squishy face, is overweight, and isn't always the sharpest knife in the drawer. But she's hot, and not only does she think so, but so does her entourage of friends and boyfriends. She is supremely self confident in everything she does, and I think that is just really, really attractive. By the same measure, I'm a lot hotter now than I was 20 years ago because I'm just way more comfortable with who I am and I care a lot less about what other people might think about me or see in me.

I think that the media uses tight butts and big hair and perfect skin as shorthand for hot because it's just easier for them, the thinking being that someone who looks good must, by definition, feel good about herself and therefore is self confident. It's hard to show internal confidence in a magazine ad, so they use this shorthand. And then what happens is people who DON'T have this level of self confidence (i.e. me 20 years ago, and lots of young people, and unfortunately many older people who never got beyond this) mistake the shorthand for the substance and work to achieve what they see in the ads and not what the reality is.

I think, though, that we shouldn't condemn or pity people who work to achieve hotness, because I think there's a biological drive at work there--people want to be sexy to ensure the continuation of the species (although I doubt they'd put it that way!). We do also value a loving family, good career, supportive friends and satisfying life, but (again speaking biologically) these things are going to have higher value to someone who is older and not so concerned with procreating but rather with sustaining what was already created. Our lizard brains, in our teens and 20's, are far more concerned with just gettin' it on and popping out some babies to ensure the species survives, so I think it's somewhat natural that at that age looks are more highly valued.

Sarah

[katluvr]

I did "scan" but quickly quit reading the Best Bike Advice thread.
I must admit people are just too serious some times. I took it lightly and was not offended...I am not 50 yet, but hey it is close!

I, like most of you, am "fitter" and feel that I "look" better now that I am older partly d/u to my attitude --which is d/t my biking and running accomplishments.

But I digress...these 2 threads are just so much more interesting since I just received a video call "Cougar Barbie". Since Barbie is now 50. It was just so hilarious. But if I shared...I fear people will be offended. Which brings me full circle. Maybe we take things to seriously and don't find the humor or fun that was intended.

Age is a number. Somedays it matters and some days it does not! And, can you really tell how old anyone is these days? Especially in a bike helmet and when the fly past you on a bike...then you see the number on their calf (body marking in a tri) and they are 60 or 70! Now that is HOT!

[sfa]

My hair is turning silver and I think it is a bright vibrant color, and actually pretty. It makes my plain brown hair more interesting.

My grandmother was a redhead, but by the time she was 40 her hair had turned completely white and I'm told that she and everyone around her thought it was drop-dead gorgeous (and she liked it that she could wear colors with white hair that she couldn't wear when her hair was red).

My mother promised me that this would happen with my red hair too, since my grandmother was the only relative we knew of who had red hair. No such luck. I turned 40 last month and there's no sign of my hair going white.

Enjoy your silver--I agree that it adds depth and sparkle to a head of hair!

Sarah

[tulip]

It's admirable to say that the only kind of beauty that matters is on the inside. I like how I am on the inside, but I also like looking good, no question. When I look good, I feel good. I walk with confidence and just feel good about myself. That goes for hair, clothes, makeup, and body. I lost about 20 lbs a few years ago, and have never felt better about myself. I would like to say that I would be just as happy with those 20lbs, but the fact is, I would not, and I did not. I don't want them back.

I work from home and I have to be careful not to slob-out. I don't often wear skirts and heels at home, although sometimes I do, but I do try to look well-put together. Yes, that's even if no one sees me, which happens often. It affects how I work, how I sit, how I talk on the phone. I do wear some makeup, even when I know I won't see anyone.

I haven't started going grey yet (I'm 41, go figure) and I don't know what I will do when that happens. I'll certainly give it a try, like Emmylou Harris. I love her hair. But it might not work for me, I don't know yet.

I'm not obsessed about how people perceive me; it's more about how I perceive me. It has to do with caring for myself.

[Becky]

I'm not obsessed about how people perceive me; it's more about how I perceive me. It has to do with caring for myself.

Great statement, and one that describes my feelings on appearance. I certainly don't qualify as high-maintenance when it comes to appearance, but I feel better when my make up and hair look good, or I'm wearing that special outfit that makes me feel confident. Our office dress code is very casual, jeans and sneakers for most staff, and I'll still go business casual/dress when my job duties that day permit or require it, just for the self-esteem boost that it gives me.

FWIW, I feel more "hot" at almost-30 than I ever did at 18 or 20. I'm fitter (thanks to cycling), more outspoken and self-assured, and finally have a clue about cosmetics and hairstyles. I can't wait to see what 40 brings!

[Aggie_Ama]

Emmylou Harris recently rediscovered the love of riding her bicycle. :p The djs on the satellite radio are quite taken by her pedaling by.

[sundial]

Some of the most beautiful women I've known had one thing in common--confidence. That alone defined their beauty.

[shootingstar]

Not sure how I will feel when I truly turn grey. Right now, just still black hair at 50. Would like to think I wouldn't colour my hair. (All of my sisters ranging from 40-49 yrs. are like me. Black hair, no obvious greying. But mum turned grey fast in her late 40's..must be from having 6 children.)

It wasn't until the last 20-25 yrs. there are have been more Asian models/images of live real Asian women in North American (and European) fashion magazines, newspapers and on TV. Hot beauty really in the media is very much Western defined...very tall (to me) or at least very long slim legs, big boobs (not padded underwire :p), etc.

Years ago, I used to be appalled to go into Chinatown and see padded bras on sale. But now you can go anywhere to any store to get the same type of bra in myriad of colours and materials.

I feel so sorry for women who want implants unless they have had a mascetomy. There are HUGE populations of women who are small boobed.

Do looks define my own self-image? Probably. At the very least, I did for awhile in my teens right into my late 20's, feel like the OTHER, meaning just not fitting into any Western /European beauty norm at all. It was normal for me to feel that way, when I lived in smaller cities that did not have noticeable % of Asians.

As for now, I guess looking healthy is very important to me after all. It is important that I stay active so I look alert, lively and can move easily. So this becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. :)

[GraysonKelly]

I apologize if this is long, but this is a subject that I struggle with daily and I try to be one of the biggest advocates for younger kids, especially girls, when it comes to positive body image.
I've got polycystic ovarian syndrome...not an uncommon condition. However, I've also got numerous other endocrine disorders, particularly problems with my pituitary gland and ovaries. When puberty hit me, it HIT and kept hitting. Not only did my chest grow way bigger in proportion to the rest of me (DD) but I also started developing male secondary sex characteristics. I'm not a hermaphrodite, I just produce way too much testosterone. My voice got deeper, my muscles got bigger, and I started growing hair everywhere. Places that hair on women is not supposed to be or at least not quite so noticeable.
When it first showed up, especially on my face, my mother went berserk and screamed at me until I shaved it. That made it worse. Then she screamed at me until I used some other products that she'd discovered (Nair) and that blistered and burned me.
Yes, my looks affect my self-image. Especially when I get called "sir" and not because my hair or clothes. Or when especially mean spirited people used to call me "Harry Potter" and not because of my glasses.
And one of the other lovely side effects of this particular disorder is a very difficult ability to keep off weight. Cycling has gone a long way in the last year toward managing that and making that part of it both bearable and beatable.
The hair is the worst part. I can keep my body covered, but not my face. All the meds I've tried have such horrible side effects that I can't take them. Other methods of hiding or getting rid of the "unwanted" hair are quick fixes but painful and in some cases expensive. But as much as this affected me when I was younger, and still affects me now, I'm not nearly as self conscious as I used to be. Mainly because I talk about it now. I'm not afraid to talk about it. And I pray that if my niece grows up to face the same type of disorder, that I'll know how what to say to her. I'll know to tell her that she is beautiful inside and out and that if she wants to find some way to erase it or make it go away that I'll help her or help her talk to her mom. But that she should never feel ashamed or less than other people or ugly or like a freak or like she isn't lovable or attractive. I pray everyday that if that day comes for her, that I'll do and say the right things. I also pray everyday that I'll do and say the right things so that I'll believe those things for myself as well.
My face, my body, my weight, yes they've been huge influences on my self-image/self-esteem for most of my life. But I'm a lot more confident about myself now, again because I am doing something that I've wanted to do for several years and in 2010 I'm gonna get on a plane to California and ride my little heart out. And I won't care about how my face looks or anything else while I'm doing it.
I know that this was probably way more info than any of you wanted or needed to know, but like I said this subject is particularly important and sensitive for me. It sounds corny, but we are all beautiful people. It's hard to accept that sometimes especially when comparisons are made. But it's true. I don't think I'm beautiful, but I am getting more confident. And when someone tells me they think I'm "cute" or "attractive" I am learning to accept that compliment.
If you read all of this, thanks.
Have a great day and be beautiful,
Gray

[shootingstar]

Grayson, you already have found the words of what to say to your niece one day.

Perhaps one day your niece if she does have it, will also ride with you and gain that strength from you.

Without question, just basic things that define female vs. male bodies, do form our self-image ..for the rest of our lives. It determines how people treat us, female vs. male.

The loss of a breast is probably another clear example...though I haven't experienced this yet..and hope not to. But far worse things could happen.

In my teens and another sister, we both had severe acne...enough that it warranted prescription drugs..pills, lotions and careful selection of certain soaps. This was one of the reasons why I was so glad to earn money part-time and get my long hair cut off. It was healthier for my skin. Recently I looked some old photos of self in teen years..those years of self-consciousness, were like muffled years lost under that angst over what...how I looked as a growing young woman. Thankfully my parents did emphasize that we work on ramping up our brains to make it through school instead of making us feel less on other things.

Looking back though, they did sense how important how we personally might feel about positive self-image. They never compared/commented on their children against one another in terms of physical looks. (or at least, I never heard it.) Amazingly 2 of my siblings had teeth braces..and my father's restaurant employer didn't offer any medical benefits whatsoever. So this was the sacrifice...that they made. None of these siblings went whining to my parents to ask for the orthodontic treatment.

I shake my head in amazement, looking back..

[smilingcat]

I'm sorry but decided to delete my post. Just not comfortable sorta like airing dirty laundry.

[Aggie_Ama]

I'm sorry but decided to delete my post. Just not comfortable sorta like airing dirty laundry.

:);)

[Biciclista]

the older I get, the less my looks have to do with my self image.
I tell you what, it's a wonderful freedom!

when I was thirteen i used to stare in the mirror at my nose, convinced I looked like a troll and no boy would EVER like me!

[GLC1968]

I 100% agree with Sarah's post about appearance and 'hotness'. When I was in my 20's I had a girlfriend whom guys would fall all over themselves to talk to or date her. I once showed a photo of her to some of my guy friends (and my brother) and they didn't get it. They said she was cute, but certainly nothing special...until they met her in person. 20 minutes later, they too were in awe. It's not about looks...it's about attitude and how a person carries themselves and how they interact with others. Many women learn this later in life and therefore become hot at 30, 40, 50 or 60. Some never learn it.

Case in point: me. I am not hot. I never have been and probably never will be, but it has little to do with how I look and everything to do with how I feel about myself. I don't know how to be sexy. Even my husband teases me about it. I don't know how to learn and at this point, I think I'm too old to bother. I have all the confidence in the world when it comes to my abilities, my brain, my inner strength, etc...but physically? Yeah, that's a huge short-coming for me and it always has been. And outside of being a little more overweight than I was in my 20's - I pretty much look exactly the same. In fact, due to some necessary surgery, my smile is even better than it was back then. If I was hot at 21, I'd still be hot now at 41. Too bad I'm not. :p

[indysteel]

I 100% agree with Sarah's post about appearance and 'hotness'. When I was in my 20's I had a girlfriend whom guys would fall all over themselves to talk to or date her. I once showed a photo of her to some of my guy friends (and my brother) and they didn't get it. They said she was cute, but certainly nothing special...until they met her in person. 20 minutes later, they too were in awe. It's not about looks...it's about attitude and how a person carries themselves and how they interact with others.

I had a friend like that in college, too. There was just something about her. She was pretty, but people's reaction to went beyond that.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Wow, a lot of insightful, and beautiful, input on this thread. What an inspiration to read all this!

I guess we ALL struggle with wanting to feel beautiful or attractive both inside and outside, I am not immune to sometimes feeling physically unappealing in various ways either.
But my mother (who died 2 years ago) unfortunately led her life imprisoned by a sense of the all-important physical appearance. She was a great natural beauty. And yet, despite being born more 'beautiful' than 99.9% of other women, she constantly worried and fretted about her appearance and whether others would think she was physically beautiful- it deeply affected her whole life in various sad ways. Because her appearance was the most important aspect in how she felt about herself, she naturally thought that others felt the very same way in how they perceived her.
I suspect she would have successfully instilled the very same attitude in me if she weren't usually too busy fussing over her appearance to take the time to 'train' me. ;)
The only good part of all this was that I was able to see in her life the consequences of this obsession about looks, and thus watch for the danger signs in myself.

[tribogota]

Interesting thread, I teach gender and sexuality studies, so I think about these things frequently to help my students think about them. Yes, society does care and make us care up and we contribute by caring too. But, I actually think humans are less affected by the appearance thing than they think, something else makes them "approve" or "disapprove" of appearances. Not arrogance, but I was "hot" at 20 and am even "hotter" now that I train 10 hours a week for triathlon, but this doesn't help much else in my life, I have to constantly work on my own positive hopeful outlook on life. I live a fairly lonely existence, some very wonderful friends, but no intimacy even though I desire it and great losses in the past. Being cute, pretty, hot, whatever, didn't help in any given moment and still doesn't help, I can hardly get a date....
Didn't mean to sound so down, but wanted to contribute that the looks thing doesn't define a whole lot, a lot of the time.

[Biciclista]

Interesting thread, I teach gender and sexuality studies, so I think about these things frequently to help my students think about them. Yes, society does care and make us care up and we contribute by caring too. But, I actually think humans are less affected by the appearance thing than they think, something else makes them "approve" or "disapprove" of appearances. Not arrogance, but I was "hot" at 20 and am even "hotter" now that I train 10 hours a week for triathlon, but this doesn't help much else in my life, I have to constantly work on my own positive hopeful outlook on life. I live a fairly lonely existence, some very wonderful friends, but no intimacy even though I desire it and great losses in the past. Being cute, pretty, hot, whatever, didn't help in any given moment and still doesn't help, I can hardly get a date....
Didn't mean to sound so down, but wanted to contribute that the looks thing doesn't define a whole lot, a lot of the time.

wow, this took guts to say. I was talking to a gorgeous young woman the other day. She told me she almost never gets asked on dates. (i told my son!!) - that Seattle is considered a cold town, where guys don't try to date gals, to give him a little edge.

I hope you run into a warm and kind soul mate soon.

[polly4711]

1. lph--- you always have great threads/input to say. i completely agree about the if you have a loving family, etc.... then you have succeded in life.
2. I agree with all of the men/women on here.
3. I am 22, my mom already gave me wrinkle cream.... my wrinkles are my smile lines.... darn it.. i got wrinkles because i smiled... isn'nt that a good thing?
4. i've learned that i am who i am.

anyhoo... could go on a long time... better complete homework!

[Zen]

Not arrogance, but I was "hot" at 20 and am even "hotter" now that I train 10 hours a week for triathlon, but this doesn't help much else in my life, I have to constantly work on my own positive hopeful outlook on life. I live a fairly lonely existence, some very wonderful friends, but no intimacy even though I desire it and great losses in the past. Being cute, pretty, hot, whatever, didn't help in any given moment and still doesn't help, I can hardly get a date....


I could have written that myself (except for that triathlon thing:p)
I think it's been four years since I had a date.
I'm still quite happy though, thank you.

[lph]

I really appreciate everybody's replies. Thanks for the input. I'm certainly not trying to belittle anybody's wish to feel attractive, I think we all do, just doodling around with the idea of what goes into being attractive. Some random thoughts:

are men more relaxed about their looks, or is this just not manly to admit you care? you can tell a male friend (not all, I guess, but some, in the right situation) that they could use a haircut, or should lose some weight - saying the same thing to a woman is mostly considered a huge faux pas. Not to mention a mistaken pregnancy :eek:

would you be offended by someone saying that at 50 you're not as cute, or trusting as when you were 20?

Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?

- late, gotta go sleep

[Mr. Bloom]

Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?


In the 80's/90's, I was at one point the youngest Senior VP and then the youngest Executive VP in a company with 5,000 employees. BUT, the clerical folks remembered me when I was a trainee...and still thought of me as that young kid.

Now, my hair is greying and it's sliding from from the top of my head to the back of my shoulders...

Yes, I'm making the transition kicking and screaming because what is see is not how I feel. SO, I guess I need to focus on making how I feel come out in other ways:confused::o:rolleyes::D

However, I have to admit...I was never "cool" or "hot" when I was 20 and was rarely comfortable in my skin. But I had a confidence that pushed me past that and that's what got me multiple job offers when I graduated.


Without question, just basic things that define female vs. male bodies, do form our self-image ..for the rest of our lives. It determines how people treat us, female vs. male.


as infants, the genders look essentially the same (except for one key anatomical difference)
as we mature, we start looking very different;)
as we age, we essentially start looking alike again (except for one key anatomical difference)
so let's age gracefully:D:cool:

[shootingstar]

as we age, we essentially start looking alike again (except for one key anatomical difference)
so let's age gracefully:D:cool:
[/LIST]

You better be careful how you tell Silver on the lst point above. :rolleyes:

[Grog]

I had written a long message about my teenage years but I've decided to chop it in favour of this more interesting anecdote:

I worked on tv for a bit, in a minor variety show. Before every show the make up artist would cake us up (men and women, although women would get icing on top of the cake). Kinda fun (I never wear any on my own). One of the make up artist that worked with the show then told me of her work with a particular female news anchor whom, she said, was obsessed with her looks to a pathological point. She controlled her image to the extreme. But can you imagine being on display like that all the time? The pressure on those women is enormous, and they're often relegated to minor positions as soon as they start to age.

In a similar vein: the French channel of Canada's national television had this woman who happens to be a trained meteorologist and a very good teacher about weather issues as the "weather woman." She was hired in 1980 and worked on the most important news show of the day until, in 1995, she was mysteriously relegated to minor shows. Yes, she has aged, and, yes, she is about 50% heavier than the chicks who present the weather on the other channels. Well I'm not exactly sure what happened, but I think she filed a formal complaint, and she won her position back. I was really grateful that she fought for this. She is, by far, the most competent for the job, and proved that looks did not always rule.

Bottom line: If you have a female news anchor that you like, send notes to the station where she works on a regular basis to say how much you appreciate her work.

[Zen]

Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?



Only if that means just changing out bodies.
This girl is obviously an empty headed vessel but much thinner, no spider veins, flat belly and perky breasts.
But not very entertaining at lunch.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb14/zencentury/th_CopyofJeannine2.jpg (http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb14/zencentury/?action=view&current=CopyofJeannine2.jpg)
This woman, on the other hand, is a hoot and knows stuff.

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb14/zencentury/th_QueenJeannine2-1.jpg (http://s206.photobucket.com/albums/bb14/zencentury/?action=view&current=QueenJeannine2-1.jpg)And she has more money :p
Who cares that the boobs are a 36 long?

[teigyr]

This makes me laugh. I am from Southern Calif and when I turned 18, my friend and I went to Calgary. This was in the 80's and you wouldn't believe how shunned we were because we weren't blonde and tanned!!! I am red-haired and freckled and I guess I didn't fit the stereotype.

Way back then, I turned into this punk purple-haired pseudo-mohawk (curly hair doesn't do mohawks so well unless you do extreme measures) kind of person. I didn't/don't like "competing" with what I should be so I went the other way. I still don't care, so much, but there are times I wish I fit into the cute category.

When I moved to Seattle and was recently divorced, I had to get braces. I remember being at a company function with new braces and not being able to eat (food in my braces!) or speak without spitting on someone. Seattle isn't so good for dating either, I agree with Biciclista's story. When I first met and went out with DH, I ended up spitting water on him when we went out to dinner because I had never eaten in public with braces. He was good with it. I was over 40 at the time too, which is what made the braces all the more insulting.

So I guess looks DO matter but I pretend like they don't. I'm getting older and my body doesn't behave like it used to. I do different stuff with my hair but then again I've always done that. I like makeup because it is fun but I have to admit that now I'm getting anti-aging moisturizers too. It isn't so much looks I mind anymore, it's the Aging Process. It's rude. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't fit into the "cute" category. Individuality has its rewards and the right person appreciates you for who you are instead of what you look like.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

OMG Zen....yer killin' me here!! :D :D :D :D

[Crankin]

I didn't reply to this thread earlier, because I wanted to think about it. And yes, I do care about how I look. Am I vain? Maybe. Am I hot? I don't think so and I don't care, as long as I am hot to my husband ;). I really don't like the idea of looking "old." I guess I am lucky that everyone, on both sides of my family age well. I like wearing make up and I like looking nice in clothes, although more of my $ has been spent on sports oriented stuff lately... I do my nails and toenails, but I do this myself.
Part of looking good for me is tied up in being fit and healthy. It's really important to me. I see so many people my age resigned to obesity and ill health as a natural consequence of aging, including most of my friends. Fitness takes work and I find that most of the people I know don't want to do that kind of work.
I do a lot to keep my hair looking good, because it is awful. For years I permed it, and then I cut it all off. Now I want nice, straight chin length hair. I'm almost there, but it takes straightening, highlights, and learning how to use a flat iron to make it look the way I want it to. I'm getting some gray around the temples, so next time, more highlights.
I got Invisalign braces 4 years ago to fix the mistakes that my first set of braces didn't do 40 years ago. I was very self conscious of my teeth. Personally, I don't care that I have small b00bs, but I wish I looked better in certain clothing styles. I would never get implants, but I am friends with certain enhancing bra styles. I remember when my mom went from an A to a C as she aged, and she hated it!
I admit, I come from a culture where women "worked" at looking good. I don't see anything wrong with it. My husband takes the same pride in his appearance and is just as interested in buying clothes, etc. He even has more shoes than me...

[shootingstar]

Hey, Grog had no idea about the tv episodes. How interesting.

Zen, where did you get that tiara? :p
Speaking of which, one of my closest female friends for about 20 years, before she and I naturally parted ways, was in a Miss Canada beauty pageant. (Yea, it's true, some of the snippy stuff backstage. Waste of time.) Long after that event (which she didn't win and didn't care to because she was caught up in her university studies), she was with a bunch research colleagues in a downtown teaching hospital in Toronto where she did her work. There was a parade outside which included a Miss Canada regally in some car/float.... Her research colleagues hooted and mocked, made minor jokes.

She absolutely dared not to reveal that she was in the pageant once upon a time. She really wanted to do well on her pharmacology thesis based on her brainpower and work.

She also had 2 older sisters who were genuinely nice individuals...and they did each do part-time modelling. Last I heard one of them died of breast cancer recently.

In some sort of curious way, I would be interested in knowing/meeting her daughters..if they took upon their mother's need to constantly look good. One of them would be same age as my niece....a great young woman (can't you tell I'm a proud aunt?), whom I've never seen wear makeup at any dressy party event so far. I'm glad...no reason..she's with family.

Same for my partner's daughter. I'm secretly glad she drags in to visit us, looking dishevelled at times, but bohemian chic. I've only seen her wear makeup once after all these years. As soon my partner told me she was exploring feminist theories etc. when she was 16, I thought: GOOD!!!!! that's when eureka starts. Hopefully.

[Jolt]

To answer the original question, not a whole lot. I don't spend much time thinking about how I look, or doing things like makeup, keeping up with the latest fashions etc. (not that there's anything wrong with doing those things within reason). Just not really interested, and for me a lot of that stuff is just a pain so I only pay a lot of attention to it when I really need to (like certain professional situations or special occasions). I do like to look healthy, but that comes naturally from being active and eating reasonably well so it's not something I find myself thinking much about.

[Zen]

Zen, where did you get that tiara? :p .

I was last year's Queen of the Turtle Races :)

Really I was just trying it on at a store. I should have bought it. It was only $20 and you never know when you'll need one.

[emily_in_nc]

Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?

I never wanted to be thought of as older. I was always happy the age I was until after 40. From then on, I wished I were younger again. Not that I am unhappy with who I am now at 47, but until around age 40, I took for granted not having wrinkles, gray hair, age spots, a thick middle, saggy skin. Ah, the innocence of youth!

Unfortunately, I have a mom for whom looks were very important (and she was a knock-out up until about 50, when she started packing on the pounds due to moving out of NYC - becoming sedentary, and getting very wrinkled due to decades of cigarette smoking). I think because of her influence, I find myself placing more importance on physical attractiveness than I would like to. I am ashamed of this in myself. I also have a couple of good girlfriends who have already had facial plastic surgery in their 40s, and that almost makes me feel like it's "wrong" to show any signs of aging. Silly!

Let's face it, looks are a HUGE thing in our society now. Otherwise, there wouldn't be such a market for botox, facial line fillers, lip injections, laser skin rejuvenation, and cosmetic surgery. These treatments are all BOOMING in the US, at least. Fortunately, I think that female cyclists place higher value on fitness and good health, and spending money not on anti-aging treatments at the local "medi-spa" but on bikes and cycling gear. I've found that cycling friends are much more "real" than my non-cycling friends in this way. Cycling = the ultimate anti-aging treatment. :)

[Zen]

Cycling = the ultimate anti-aging treatment. :)

:) Physically and mentally

[Aggie_Ama]

Really I was just trying it on at a store. I should have bought it. It was only $20 and you never know when you'll need one.

Isn't that the truth! I sold my wedding tiara in a "decluttering" phase and some days I just wish I had it to parade around in. Every woman should have a tiara. :D

[GLC1968]

However, I have to admit...I was never "cool" or "hot" when I was 20 and was rarely comfortable in my skin. But I had a confidence that pushed me past that and that's what got me multiple job offers when I graduated.


I think this is what my issue is. People who know me in real life would never guess that I have this internal insecurity. It's also never held me back in my career, but it manifests itself in subtle ways one of which is my ability to project 'hotness'.



Did you ever switch over from wanting to be thought of as older, to wishing you were younger?


I think I might be getting to this point, but it's not due to how I look (yet). It's mostly because I don't recover or heal as well as I used to!

I actually still get mistaken for being younger than I am. It's not quite as pronounced as it used to be (up until the past 5 years, people truly thought I was still in my 20's). BUT, my lifestyle is such that what I look like means next to nothing to me. It's important that my husband is attracted to me, and it's important that I'm presentable at work...but other than that, I'm never even in social situations where what I look like matters anymore. Though, it's this same lifestyle that dictates that I am often dressed like a bum, wearing ugly shoes, covered with mud, wearing a baseball hat (or a bandana) and totally without makeup. If I can look, at the very least, unoffensive under these conditions, I figure I'm doing ok! :p

[lunacycles]

Ya know, I was mildly "hot" in my 20's, but it made absolutely no difference to my quality of life. If you have not a wit of self confidence (mine was very low), it makes no difference what you look like. If you are depressed, as I often was, being attractive has no value. I am 43 now, and happier than I have ever been. I look older--a lot older, thanks to being raised underneath the rocky mountain sun sans sunscreen my entire youth..., and--except for the skin cancer issues--I pretty much dig it. My smile lines have merged with my eye lines. My hair line is doing some interesting things, but that's okay. I am much more engaged with life and living, and that seems to make all the difference. I go through phases where I am in relationships and doing that work, then lovely periods of solitude where I think: this rocks! I really have a hard time with people surgically improving their looks: I just find it painful to know that people think it truly matters, and spend their hard earned money to perk things up. How will this look when they are 75? That is my question. Anyone see Death Becomes Her? I have a mother like one of the posters: stunningly beautiful her whole life but she never knew it or truly felt/believed it, so it made no difference.

Beauty and looking youthful are completely irrelevant to happiness. This I know. If anything, they are a hindrance to happiness because they are so valued and so difficult to maintain, and have so very little to do with one's actual character.

[smurfalicious]

Whenever we got down on ourselves my friends and I would play something we called the gene pool game. Basically, it just got us to pull our heads out of our butts. The deal was, if you could have an entirely new body and appearance, but you had a 50/50 chance of getting to be um, let me phrase this carefully, "conventionally attractive and thin" or "conventionally unattractive and morbidly obese," would you do it? Answer was always no, rather happy with me thanks.

Back when I was shaking my a** for cash I cared a lot about my looks. It was brutal because you equated the amount you made any given night to your self worth, and your appearance. I tried not to, but it was hard. It definitely was an eye opening experience. It also opened my eyes to the wide array of what men find attractive. I was really scared when I started because I wasn't super skinny and since I got um my "twins" have lacked fullness in the bottom half and I hated them. One night there was a customer, gorgeous ooooh goodness gorgeous, I thought was digging me. He ended up spending a ton of cash on a Malibu Barbie type girl and then towards the end of the evening bought one dance from me. He told me that he had wanted a dance from me all night but she was being all pushy. Huh. Another guy spent over $100 on me in 1/2hr because he loved that I wasn't all plastic and had curves.

I must say I bummed out when I grew into my legs, I was a leggy kid. But, that's life. I guess spending most of my life around horses I never worried to much about looking cute because I was going to get dirty. I was really baffled when the horse show mom's were doing their girls makeup. Really? For a 4-H show? She's 10!!!

So come middle school and into high school I had a rude awakening when girls got downright nasty about how you did your hair, wore your makeup, and got dressed. My parents got divorced around that time and mom was struggling to feed and clothe us, and I was shooting up in height. I got mocked for my too short pants every day at the bus stop until one night in tears I had my aunt take me to K-Mart where I used my allowance to buy longer pants. I was sooo sad because my mom bought me these super cute outfits that all coordinated with matching colored denim.

Later I decided that because GAP khaki wasn't my thing I'd go through angsty goth phase. Ahhh, the old days, when it was goth, not emo, and we had better taste in music. Give me Sisters of Mercy any day!

When I took up mountain biking two things happened that peeved me. One, my mom pointed out that I was losing weight in such a manner that it sounded like I desperately needed to. Two, yall will love this, the boyfriend who got me into mountain bike said, no lie, "Most women take up biking because they like how it makes their bodies look." WTF? Yes, the giant hematoma on the back of my calf from a wicked top tube tango is soooo sexy! Okay, I was proud of it but for reals?

Another thing that irks me, on the rare occasion I put make up on, I really detest the compliments. Like I wasn't good enough before, but now that I've painted my face with crap I am? Lipstick? Don't even get me started. Lipstick was originally intended to replicate the female sex organs in a state of arousal. Hurray! Makes me want purple to scare away icky guys!

So I guess that brings me to now. I've learned to be happy in my own skin. Being strong and healthy is good. If I enjoy a little too much dark beer during the cold, dark days of winter and pudge up a bit, whatever. It will go away in due time. I'd rather give in the Ben and Jerry's ice cream now and then than live a life obsessed with my weight, what I eat, etc. Yeah I've had a few gray hairs since I was 14 but the coolest teacher I ever had was completely gray and would dye little inconspicuous strips whatever color of the rainbow she felt. There's a size I'd rather be it, but it's not too far away from where I am, and at that size I have no boobs or a butt, so that's kind of lame. I never ever broke out in high school, but suddenly I'm playing catch up. Payback for something I guess. I think I'm cute but not hot or sexy, and that's cool, there's a market for cute. People thought mom was 30 in her mid 40s so hopefully I don't start sporting my dad's genes out of nowhere.

Hmm, straying here. I guess I'm glad I grew up in an era, and with parents who didn't expect me to stand still and look pretty. My grandma on dad's side sure believed that was my purpose. She thought it was great I rode horses until she found out I groomed, tacked up, and cleaned stalls myself. Mom taught me all about construction and carpentry, how to play a mean game of softball, encouraged me when I became a star pitcher. Dad took me to riding lessons and horse shows faithfully every weekend and made sure I knew horses were work. My friends taught me to work on my truck, my bike, how to build fences and irrigate hay fields. My job on the guest ranch taught me to stomach scrubbing disgusting wounds and how to keep a cool head in veterinary emergency. So that's what defines my self image. If I need to toss my hair in a pony tail and wear something I don't mind getting cow after birth on so be it. If that makes me less attractive to a guy, I don't want him. Curiously though, I found wearing ratty shoes, grubby Carhartt work shorts, some ancient t-shirt from the bottom of the drawer, and a baseball cap into the lumber yard would get the attention of all the young guys, even a seriously enhanced Barbie doll with a pulse was in the store.

I could want to look like other people all day, but I kind of like me. In line at Whole Foods with a coworker she made a snarky remark about all the starve yourself to be thin girls on magazine covers. Instantly we weren't popular so I finished it off and said, "Oh, you mean skinny fat girls? Ya know, the ones who are thin but have no definition? No tone?" Oooooh, collective Care Bear "Glare" from the good people of Boulder. So we paid and took our wobbly from sprints at the track, but well toned legs and butts the heck out of there!

[shootingstar]

Today have learned all sorts of stuff about TE forum members never dreamt of. :rolleyes:

There's something about the beauty of the anonymity of the Internet. :p

And one day maybe I will know of a woman in person who had and will tell others that she had plastic surgery just to make herself more beautiful...not because she suffered breast cancer, was a burn victim, etc.

Until then, my world remains narrow. :confused:

[Mr. Bloom]

I've found that cycling friends are much more "real"

That's what happens when you swallow bugs at 18mph:D

[Crankin]

Just playing the devil's advocate, but, when did wearing make up equate with being or not being a feminist? Why do people think that caring about looks is evil?
Anyone who knows me (male or female) would say that I am pretty outspoken about gender role stuff and I don't put up with any c*ap from anyone. Heck, I was even the mom who didn't feel one shred of guilt about working.
And yes, I appreciate being with cyclists more than other types. Where else can you discuss bodily functions, while being totally sweaty, dressed in lycra? And, nobody cares! But, I still like make up!

[Tuckervill]

There's something about the beauty of the anonymity of the Internet.


lol +1!

[Aggie_Ama]

Just playing the devil's advocate, but, when did wearing make up equate with being or not being a feminist? Why do people think that caring about looks is evil?
Anyone who knows me (male or female) would say that I am pretty outspoken about gender role stuff and I don't put up with any c*ap from anyone. Heck, I was even the mom who didn't feel one shred of guilt about working.
And yes, I appreciate being with cyclists more than other types. Where else can you discuss bodily functions, while being totally sweaty, dressed in lycra? And, nobody cares! But, I still like make up!

I like my makeup too! As I said earlier- foundation, eyeshadow, eyeliner and mascara every day. Sometimes lipstick but mostly I forget it wore off. If I can find my blush brush I will wear it but often not. Until I started reading TE I didn't know makeup was so shunned? The only thing in my makeup that is even noticeable is the eyeliner/mascara but I don't put it on thick. It is probably most noticeable to me because I have blond lashes and I think I look completely different without makeup on.

[roadie gal]

I was the short, fat, scraggly haired kid with braces and glasses... with 2 beautiful sisters. Let me tell you, that screws up your self image forever. I know that I'm no longer that teenager. I have a lot more self confidence and I KNOW I look better now and I'm healthier than I've ever been. BUT deep down, I'm still that lonely kid. I think your early self image stays with you throughout your life. You aren't necessarily bound by it, but it's there.

BTW, I turned 50 last month. I've been looking forward to it. There's something magical about a half century. But it does make you look back and think "What have I done with that half century?" I don't feel old. It's hard to describe the exact feeling.

[Biciclista]

When I was a small child, for a while I was a prodigy at guessing ages. My mother would bring me into a party, or introduce me to guests and tell me to guess their ages. I could see the lines and signs of age. I used to upset some women because my guesses were very good. I thought 50 was very old.
So when I actually hit 50 myself, I could remember my childish reactions to 50 year old faces and shudder.
Sadly, i lost the ability to guess ages accurately by the time I was a teenager and now I can hardly do it at all.

[lph]

I took the day off and went xc skiing today (hooray for working for the Norwegian government ;) ), and this thread kept rolling around in my mind.

I don't think we'll ever get away from wanting to be attractive, that's a fairly basic urge, and looks will always play some role in that no matter who stellar your personality is, but I wish we could move away from equating looking good with looking young and vice versa. Some people genuinely look younger than their years - off the top of my head I can think of Leonardo DiCaprio and Christina Ricci, they both have big eyes and "childlike" faces. My father-in-law is another, he has a full head of hair, few wrinkles and a boyish face with big eyes, and will always look younger than he is.

But most times I don't think we're doing ourselves any favours by saying that someone "looks young" when what we mean is that they look good, or fit, or active.

I get told that sometimes, that I don't look like I'm almost 40. That's not really a compliment I appreciate that much, even though it's meant well. I don't look 30 or 35, I have the grey hair and the wrinkles to prove it - I look like a fit 40-year-old. I feel like saying - uh, no, this is what active 40-yr.old women look like. I have a colleague too who is a good example of this. He's extremely fit and 63 years old. He has skiied, biked and kayaked his whole life, and has an amazing body to show for it (I've seen most of it in the sauna :rolleyes:), and I'd be tempted to say that he doesn't look a day over 50, but that's not right. He looks like an extremely fit 63-yr.old. That is what extremely fit 63-yr.olds look like, and hurray for that!

Funny thing: when I was 18 I'd rather be thought of as hot/cute/sexy than fit, and if somebody had complimented me on my muscles I would find them a bit creepy (I had muscles back then too, rode race-horses for a living age 16-20). Now I would much rather be complimented on my fitness than my "hotness", which I would find a little creepy... :p

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

[Biciclista]

.


Funny thing: when I was 18 I'd rather be thought of as hot/cute/sexy than fit, and if somebody had complimented me on my muscles I would find them a bit creepy (I had muscles back then too, rode race-horses for a living age 16-20). Now I would much rather be complimented on my fitness than my "hotness", which I would find a little creepy... :p

In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

Yeah, really. How many young women come on here freaked out that they might gain muscles in their legs and then won't bike because of it!

[jobob]

I had a low self-image when I was younger.

Nowadays it shocks me a bit when I see myself in the mirror and I think I look pretty darn good :)

[shootingstar]

When I was a small child, for a while I was a prodigy at guessing ages. My mother would bring me into a party, or introduce me to guests and tell me to guess their ages. I could see the lines and signs of age. I used to upset some women because my guesses were very good.

I can imagine, Mimi. Methinks there maybe alot of TE members, including myself, hope that we look abit younger or at least MOVE, younger than our age.

In response to Crankin, I don't diss makeup. It is useful for certain times. I'm just glad to be with grown sisters, nieces and my partner's daughter who don't feel any need to look better with makeup when we visit one another even if we haven't see each other for awhile.

I haven't worn mascara in past quarter century. My eyes feel exhausted after 1-2 hrs. And you can't really notice the mascara on me anyway. Useless.

Alot of Asian eyes, the way how the eyes are set into the face, require a ton of mascara, or curling the eyelashes plus eyeliner to make it noticeable /worthwhile. However some of my sisters nominally use the stuff.

But for myself, I am with a guy ..who doesn't even want to kiss me when I wear lipstick. Lipstick has fragrance. If I wear foundation, he turns his face away..he can smell the fragrance which he is allergic. There are people like him, who if they sat beside a woman wearing make-up, they start getting a headache /allergic reaction which makes it difficult to concentrate at a meeting. It happened to him at a biz meeting in a small board rm. He really wanted to leave the rm.

As for ever looking like a hottie at any point in life, LOL, I think I missed that stage. I must have been sitting by the roadside of life, when it all happened. :D

[lph]

Mebbe you were busy changing a flat :D


In general I would never want to be 20 again. Lawdy, what a hassle.

This came out a little wrong. No offense to the 20-yr. olds smart enough to be on this board - I just wasn't a particularly nice, or smart, or happy one.

[jobob]

I know what you mean. Most miserable time of my life, alas. Wish I could get a do-over. :cool:

[OakLeaf]

What lph said. I could've written a lot of that, except not nearly so eloquently! (And except for the fact that I loved my muscles when I was 18, too.)

I would expand a little by saying that there's a huge difference between "looks don't matter" vs. "the type of looks that matter to me are maybe a little different from what I perceive as mattering to the mainstream media." An enormous difference.

Like a lot of you, maybe most women, much of my self-image comes from cruel, ugly things my parents and peers told me when I was a pre-adolescent. So in that way, you could say that looks don't define my self image - I feel just as fat at 122 lbs as I did at 150.

I never learned to put on makeup, and there are times (pretty infrequent) when I feel "naked" without it, but in general I don't miss it. I'm not enormously concerned about my hair, and I'm not terribly motivated to cover my grey; but six months of stupendously awful haircuts (two winters in a row) really added up to make me feel unattractive.

When I look at my chest in the mirror, I don't care that I don't see large firm b00bs. But I do care that I can make my pecs dance. The scars on my legs, well, I'd be happier not to have them, but if I catch a glimpse of defined muscles in the mirror when I'm putting on pantyhose, that does give me an ego boost. I'm okay with my cyclist's tan (white shoulders, white upper thighs, raccoon eyes), but I do feel pasty and pudgy when I have no tan at all (and I will cop to putting sunblock on my nose in a pretty futile attempt to keep it close to the same color as my cheeks at least :rolleyes:). I'm not shy about walking into stores in my cycling shorts. But I'd change before I went to the opera.


I read something a few years back that I just now remembered and I may not be describing this exactly right, but I know I have the gist of it. Some researchers put male and female subjects through exercise programs. All of the participants lost weight and got stronger. But if the women's self-image improved, they were more likely to say it was because they were stronger and more muscular; if the men's self-image improved, they were more likely to say it was because they'd lost weight. The researchers interpreted this as indicating that the non-stereotypical values mattered more to each gender; but I thought it was something else.

For me, and for most women, my self-image about my weight is immutable. I know in my heart that I am fat (and yah, I know, I'm sure years of therapy could help me with that, but honestly I have more important things to deal with in therapy :rolleyes:). No amount of weight loss will make me feel not-fat. Being strong and muscular, on the other hand - because it's something I received no messages about as a child - I can see the changes in my body honestly, without all the filters and "tapes." I can own the results of the work I've done and be happy about it. My guess is that it's the same for men - their idea of whether they're strong or weak is instilled as a value judgment in childhood and difficult to change, whereas they can see themselves more objectively as fat or thin.

[Biciclista]

This was just handed to me; it's a real piece of history:


Office instruction - Aero-Space Division Secretarial Standard No. 901
June 28, 1961


Personal Appearance

An attractive appearance is important and can be achieved by using intelligence in the selection and care of clothes and the use of proper makeup.

Clothing should be selected which is suitable, not only for the job itself, but the work area as well. A girl whose work requires physical effort should obviously select clothes which are both attractive and comfortable. Low-cut dresses are never appropriate and excuses such as “dates” or “hot weather” will not make them correct.

REMINDERS

1. Regardless of how attractive your clothing may be when new, they must be kept clean and well pressed. A fastidious person knows that good grooming includes cleanliness both in her person and her garments.
2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.
3. Extreme hairdos should be avoided. Gaudy flowers and ornaments are not appropriate for the office.
4. Heavy makeup attracts attention but not always admiration.


Don’t risk embarrassment to either your employer or yourself. Invariably, the girl who is most admired by her fellow employees is well groomed but tailored, and has learned the importance of being properly dressed and immaculate in her appearance. She never arrives at work with her hair in curlers and without makeup, thereby creating the impression that the effort to be “ready for her job” is just too great. She knows that good mental and physical health are important in order to be attractive.

She never uses personal appearance as a substitute for intelligence by knows that being well groomed is part of her job.

[Crankin]

I definitely agree; my idea of looking good is looking fit (I think I tried to say that before). And what lph said about looking good for one's age vs. looking younger is right on. I look good for 55. Do I look 40? I don't think so. I want to say to my friends who say they "can't do what I do" that this is what a fit 55 year looks like. Come see my cycling friends.
You know, Oakleaf, I think that I was a case of your thinking, but in reverse. I was always thin and then in my twenties, I gained about 25 pounds. I lost it and kept it off until I was in my mid forties (well I didn't gain as much). Both times, I was slow to accept the fact that I needed to do something, because I saw myself as a thin person. In fact the second time, I saw myself as a fit, thin person, even though I was barely going through the motions at the gym. The first time my husband took me out on the bike, I almost fainted. I still thought I was fit and thin until I was gasping for breath going up a teeny hill. Then I got pissed at myself and started on the right track to getting fit again.
That won't happen again.

[eclectic]

Biciclista

That is priceless! ! ! ! But I do wish they would put the low cut top rule back into play. I get tired telling the girls all day to pull up their tops - the poor HS boys even admit they don't really like it - they have no where to look.

Crankin' your story sounds like mine - even when I was ill and gained 40 lbs I still perceived myself as a thin person. I don't realize how bad I looked until I look at old photo's.

I gained weight again after a personal crisis and am now trying to get it back off. A friend told me last night I am starting to look "fit". As I am growing older I see that being valued more than being "Hot"

Just a thought
Perhaps it is a statement of the species - men are attracted to "fit" older women because they know they will be healthy enough to take care of them in their old age. But then men are attracted to young and "hot" too when they are old. :rolleyes: probably to test there virility and reproductive rights :p

Luckily more older men are attracted to old and fit than young and hot or I would be in a lurch of ever finding another soulmate.

Just an interesting aside - I met a guy in his mid 50's whom I thought was rather interesting, he said when he met me he wasn't interested because I was too young for him. I am 52! (he perked up a little when he found that out)

I always thought all older men wanted young and "hot" but apparently there are some out there w/ brains and integrity who take mature and fit over young and hot.

Me on the other hand . . . .:rolleyes: yep I will take men who are mature and fit any day over young and hot.

[redrhodie]

This was just handed to me; it's a real piece of history:


Office instruction - Aero-Space Division Secretarial Standard No. 901
June 28, 1961


Personal Appearance

An attractive appearance is important and can be achieved by using intelligence in the selection and care of clothes and the use of proper makeup.

Clothing should be selected which is suitable, not only for the job itself, but the work area as well. A girl whose work requires physical effort should obviously select clothes which are both attractive and comfortable. Low-cut dresses are never appropriate and excuses such as “dates” or “hot weather” will not make them correct.

REMINDERS

1. Regardless of how attractive your clothing may be when new, they must be kept clean and well pressed. A fastidious person knows that good grooming includes cleanliness both in her person and her garments.
2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.
3. Extreme hairdos should be avoided. Gaudy flowers and ornaments are not appropriate for the office.
4. Heavy makeup attracts attention but not always admiration.


Don’t risk embarrassment to either your employer or yourself. Invariably, the girl who is most admired by her fellow employees is well groomed but tailored, and has learned the importance of being properly dressed and immaculate in her appearance. She never arrives at work with her hair in curlers and without makeup, thereby creating the impression that the effort to be “ready for her job” is just too great. She knows that good mental and physical health are important in order to be attractive.

She never uses personal appearance as a substitute for intelligence by knows that being well groomed is part of her job.

Thank you Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinam. When I read things like this, I know what you did for me.

[Biciclista]

I'm still wondering about this one:

2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.


are we referring to garterbelts? slips? girdles?

[redrhodie]

Probably girdles. My mother told me of having one basically explode off of her, it was so taut. A nice girl never left home without one.

[GLC1968]

I'm still wondering about this one:

2. The well-dressed girl wears proper undergarments. She knows she does not look well on the outside unless she is dressed correctly underneath.


are we referring to garterbelts? slips? girdles?

Or, if you apply it to today: no VPL, a bra that fits and no thongs showing above the waist band. :p

Actually, as a former retail outlet manager, I can see how that entire dress code could easily be applied to today's standards with ease. I had plenty of women (men too, actually) that had NO idea how to dress appropriately for a business situation. In fact, when I worked for the last retail establishment before I left the industry, dress code training was a critical part of your early employment. As an employee of my store, you were a representative of the designer and were expected to dress as such. It was a constant battle. Anyway, replace 'girl' with something more gender neutral (and dump the curlers phrase), and it would still apply.

[solobiker]

Or, if you apply it to today: no VPL, a bra that fits and no thongs showing above the waist band. :p

I was on a hut trip a few weeks ago and the guys were talking about girls/women on their snowboards and that they must be cold because of the "whale tale" I was pretty confused because I had no I idea what a "whale tale" was. I was trying to think of all these complicated things then I finally asked and they said it was when you could see the womens thong because there pants were too low:eek: Talk about cold when one is snowboarding

[shootingstar]

I was on a hut trip a few weeks ago and the guys were talking about girls/women on their snowboards and that they must be cold because of the "whale tale" I was pretty confused because I had no I idea what a "whale tale" was. I was trying to think of all these complicated things then I finally asked and they said it was when you could see the womens thong because there pants were too low:eek: Talk about cold when one is snowboarding

The brain struggles: how is wearing a thong comfortable when doing any sport? Please inform nuthead here.....:confused::p

Red: I giggled over that girdle story.

Alas, body shaping garments have come back in the lingerie section. When I first saw their 21lst century of the old, I was abit put off.

It's ok for the annual party or whatever. But really hopefully not for regular wear! Instead of forcing body to look hot in clothes, instead for some women to focus on their health and fitness.

[Mr. Bloom]

but I wish we could move away from equating looking good with looking young and vice versa.

Ironically, as I was at the peak of my '08 fitness...and a few pounds lighter, I looked older due to the lines that formed in my face as the 'jowl fat' was burned off...:eek:

[Crankin]

There was just a study verifying that phenomena, Mr. S. Twins who weighed more, looked younger, particularly in the area of wrinkles.
One of the negatives of maintaining a lower weight has been the prominence of laugh lines. Both my mom and dad had (have for my dad) them. And they both maintained a healthy weight into older age. My dad is almost 84 and pretty trim. Yet, he does no exercise. I always thought my mom's laugh lines were from too much sun, after years on the Cape and living in FL and AZ. But, they got worse as she became thinner.
Still, I don't want to gain weight to get rid of the wrinkles!

[OakLeaf]

The brain struggles: how is wearing a thong comfortable when doing any sport? Please inform nuthead here.....:confused::p

Some people require underwear under their workout clothes. (Not me, which also solves the VPL problem when I'm working out...)

Underwear winds up in the crack of your *ss.

The less of it there, the better.

Ergo, thongs. :cool:

[emily_in_nc]

And yes, I appreciate being with cyclists more than other types. Where else can you discuss bodily functions, while being totally sweaty, dressed in lycra? And, nobody cares! But, I still like make up!

Me too! :p

[lph]

Probably girdles. My mother told me of having one basically explode off of her, it was so taut.

:D This one had me chortling out loud :D

I had a pair of uppity buppity nylons as a young adult that were like that. They turned my already small tush flat and ROCK HARD :eek:

[silver]

And one day maybe I will know of a woman in person who had and will tell others that she had plastic surgery just to make herself more beautiful...not because she suffered breast cancer, was a burn victim, etc.

Until then, my world remains narrow. :confused:


hmmm....I've said this on this board before.....I had plastic surgery (got breast implants). I got them to make my body more attractive.

That's the bottom line. But there is much more to it.

With them I have a better self image of my body. I could discuss this at length, but I know that there are those would never understand my decision and would call my swallow or have some other less that positive opinion of me because of it. And although, I really do care what others think of me.....It's my intention in life to have a positive, inspiring and encouraging influence on other people....It doesn't matter to me if there are those who disagree with my decision to get plastic surgery. :rolleyes:

[Zen]

:D This one had me chortling out loud :D


Chortling? Just chortling? I guffawed at that one.

My mom told me a story involving her swimming and what were known as "falsies".

Buoyant falsies.

[malkin]

Preggers bellies are buoyant too.
Even if the fetus is a girl.