Best Bike Buying Advice, EVER!

[smurfalicious]

I sent my friend who owns a shop in PDX a lengthy email pondering the merits of two different bikes. I finally heard back from him, he rocks. Apologies to any 50 something chicks with American Express cards in their wallet.

sorry for the delay. my advice.. ride what you can while your alive, its not like you can have a bike like that in your next life. look, you're probably as good looking as you'll ever be so buy a really sexy bike that you love and love riding. the deal gets worse by the day, every day you are older, that bike is going to be less fun to ride. having a hot ride now is something that you can look back on and be proud of. any 50 yr old woman can walk into a shop and lay down the amex for something sexy but she won't look good on it. it's either your time or it is someone elses....
i wouldn't spend mine deliberating...

[Triskeliongirl]

Hmmm, what he is missing is that if you keep riding you will look pretty darn sexy in your 50s! I am actually sexier in my 50s than when I was younger. So, at 51 I finally got a sexy bike to match my body. Tell that to your friend! I get hit on by 30 somethings all the time on group rides..........more so since I got my cervelo. That was the funniest thing I noticed, how much more attention I got from the young male riders on a sexy bike.

[fatbottomedgurl]

Ok, I am 45 and find this really obnoxious. I am in way better shape now than when I was 30, and every day riding gets better and better. I have a friend in her 70's who kicks my *ss climbing hills on her mountain bike. I have a top of the line sexy mountain bike, and a pretty decent road bike. I really couldn't care less if some hot boy from a bike shop thinks I look good on my bike. Seriously, he should grow up. And I am not sorry for the rant.

I'm with triskeliongirl- I get hit on all the time on my bike by younger guys. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Oh man, Smurfette, I hope you re-read that when you are 50- I guarantee you'll get a big laugh out of it! :cool:

the deal gets worse by the day, every day you are older, that bike is going to be less fun to ride.
Um...nothing could be further from the truth! The opposite is true for most of us here. If it were true we should have all killed ourselves at age 18 and spared ourselves decades of misery.


you're probably as good looking as you'll ever be....any 50 yr old woman can walk into a shop and lay down the amex for something sexy but she won't look good on it
I look damn FINE on my bike, as do plenty of other 40, 50, and 60 year women on here. What planet is this guy from, Planet Romper Room?? He talks like a 15 year old. Besides, a bike can't make you sexy- only YOU can do that...with your 'tude. But then he doesn't know that yet since he's apparently still in high school.
If you ask me he sounds like those guys you work with. :rolleyes:
If you want to and are able to buy a new bike for yourself, you should do it without needing any boy's approval or permission anyway. :)

Honestly. This thread is really just a joke, right?

[smurfalicious]

Ooof, really wasn't trying to stir sh*t up. I guess perhaps it seems different because I know him, but I just liked the "stop stewing on it and buy a damn bike and ride the piss out of it attitude." Don't thing he was bagging on age, I know there are some smoking cougars on his team. Besides, at 27 I still get carded for EVERYTHING so I'm pretty confident I'll be adorable forever. :D

[smurfalicious]

If you want to and are able to buy a new bike for yourself, you should do it without needing any boy's approval or permission anyway. :)

Oh no, wasn't seeking his approval or permission, just his advice. He helped me with my bike immensely back in the day. I value his opinion more than certain others so I asked what he thought of my two contenders since he knows me and how/what/when/where I like to ride. I sent him about 5 pages of whiney, indecisive drivel and his answer was shut up and ride.

Besides, my immense crush on him died back when we hung out and InterBike and he was this totally whipped, lame, subdued version of himself. He buys his girlfriend bad *** bikes all the time that she could care less about. It's not fair, really, it's not.

[fatbottomedgurl]

I learned this from my Dad:
Buy the absolute best you can afford. If you can't afford it, wait and save until you can, because you will always regret settling. With that said, at 27 and single you may be at the perfect place to buy the perfect bike...or not.

Hey, no offense. At my age I just get crabby after 9:00 especially if I haven't taken my Geritol.

[smurfalicious]

Hey, no offense. At my age I just get crabby after 9:00 especially if I haven't taken my Geritol.

Bwahaha! AM or PM? :D My hero's are old "broads" (like my "grandma") still out on their horses. My department head who at close to twice my age could ride the legs off of me. He hasn't missed a day of riding in 15-16 years (rode the trainer after hernia surgery) and regularly rides routes that the AToC covered. The 40 something beer bellied guys who can't ride rough stock anymore who drink as much as the young bucks on Thursday night and can still team rope the pants off them. My old neighbor who while pushing 80 refused to sell his farm to greedy developers and still ran a good number of cattle and kept horses for the grand kids. Oh and my mom who got her contractors license at like 54 and in addition to having her woodworking featured in galleries, she's teaching women's woodworking classes.

[Wahine]

I wanna grow up to be like those people. In the meantime... I'm going to buy the sexiest bike I possibly can and love riding it too. And love it when the 30 somethings try to pick me up. You're not "young" forever and while all stages of life have their goods and bads, I'm going to enjoy the goods as much as I can regardless of what stage I'm in.:D:D:D

[smilingcat]

Hi smurf,

I'm definitly in the older crowd and I just had to laugh at your friends comment so not to worry.

I do envy the younger people. You get to do things that I couldn't do or if I did would have raised more than an eyebrow back in the days.

Then there is my physical being. Every year, I get slower, speed wise and slower recovery. Every year my physical strength is just tiny bit weaker. And I've noticed my reaction time is not what it used to be.

I wish I was just as strong and just as fast, as when I was in my thirties and with the ligthning fast reflex.

As for wanting things beyond your reach...

Funny thing about us. We all have dreams and wants and it seems that these things are just out of our reach. For some, its being able to afford a brand new car. For others, its a brand new Lincoln... and goes up. For some, the dream is able to own a $100k car. And those who can afford a $100k car they dream of owning a $200k car. and so on. To dream just out of our reach is healthy I think. Life without dreams seems boring. Your desire for a nice bike sounds pretty healthy. Just out of your reach that is to say its not outlandishly out of reach like you want a turbo-charged Porche Carrera kind of thing.

Now about your desire for a nice bike. Don't buy a bike if you are not 100% happy about it. Buy it because you love it; not because what others think about who or what you are. If the bike you have serves your needs ignore your "friends"/co-wrokers who are ragging on you. Just remember, Lance can leave all of them in a dust with a rusted out beach cruiser while your co-workers ride on brand new pinerella (sp) or Cervelo bike. The thing that really matters is who is sitting on the seat. Be a reverse snob to them.

Think about this too... Lets say you financed and bought the dream bike. Will it still be a dream bike? You now have payments on the financing and that may crimp your lifestyle. It may affect your lifestyle to a point where you may resent the financial burden. Then the bike would not be fun anymore. Another thing, the special-ness will wear off and it will become just another bike you own. Next years model looks so much sexier, so much prettier, or the color scheme is so much better.

lust and dream for things out of your reach. And enjoy what you have to the fullest. And turn a deaf ear to those who say otherwise.

You own an amazing piece of photo equipment, a lovely horse, live in one fantastic place. Don't let "keeping up with the Jones" wreck your paradise. You have a wonderful bike you put together with your own hand. brought it back to life with your care and love. Enjoy her.

And with that, I'm really happy to say I really like my K2 cause it didn't dent my wallet or put a big 'ol hole in my pocket. And since I'm not racing, K2 serves me just right.

take care and keep on dreaming,
smilingcat

[uforgot]

This thread is like someone who says "no offense, BUT...", or "Don't take this wrong, BUT", and then proceeds to offend you.

Edit: Can't let this go. You say you didn't want to stir up anything, but what did you expect? You openly insulted a large number of members of this board. Maybe you should try to embrace inner beauty? Wisdom? Kindness? You may look great on your bike, Smurf, (and no offense), BUT...your post shows that you don't appear to be the sharpest knife in the drawer at this point in your life. Hopefully, that will change as you grow older (it's inevitable) and wiser. Then you won't think that this is the best bike advice EVER.

[Kalidurga]

...but I just liked the "stop stewing on it and buy a damn bike and ride the piss out of it attitude."

Interesting thread. I can't recall that considerations of either sex or sexiness have ever entered my mind when I've thought of riding my bike. I will agree wholeheartedly with the attitude you described above, though. When I ride the piss out of my bike, I do it for ME, for my enjoyment and good health. Not to look a certain way or get attention from anyone. But maybe that makes me weird.

[Duck on Wheels]

I think this guy's comment was one of those instances wehre you have to know the author to get the humor. Irony and flippancy do not come over well among strangers, especially in print. As one of the potentially offended older women on the board, I'm prepared to take Smurf's word for it that, knowing the guy, this was funny, not meant to be taken literally, and no offense intended. We can put our guns back in their holsters and pick up those teacups again, pinkies poised. ;)

[Crankin]

Well, while I do wish I started riding in my 20s or 30s, I don't wish to be that age.
I ride with a group of people who are mostly older than me a few times a year. One ride was lead by an 83 year old :eek:. My goal is to be like them. They might not be the fastest, but, they are out there doing things that 98% of all Americans don't do, like 40 mile rides, 8 mile hikes, and x country skiing.
And, I know I am in better shape now than when I was overweight in my twenties or anorexic skinny in my thirties.
There's nothing wrong with being a 50 something with an Amex in her pocket.

[lph]

I guess I'm smack in the middle between the right age to buy a "hot, sexy bike" and the right age to afford one ;), but hey - I really can't see any need to get offended. How important can a bike be to your self-image anyway? Sure, he was "offensive" to 50 yr olds, but he was trying to cheer up a young woman, a friend, by being funny and encouraging, he wasn't sending a well-thought-out public message to all women cyclists out there. And it was "the best advice - ever" to smurf then and there, because it's what she needed to hear. I'm much stingier, so I don't agree with the "buy the best bike you can afford"-idea at all, but I can still appreciate the spirit behind the idea.

eta: I felt much the same way when I was browsing for a road bike, and a guy in his 50s, very overweight, came into the store, glanced around and casually walked out ten minutes later with the beeyoootifulll shiny sexy sleek red road bike I'd been lusting for but couldn't afford. Sure, I should have been thinking "woohoo, good for him, getting out there and getting into shape!" But I just kept thinking "waaahhh - that bike would've looked so much better going home with me!" :D

[redrhodie]

I bought my dream bike at 40. I will still be sexy on it at 50. Sexy is a state of mind.

[tulip]

Hi Smurf, It sounds like your friend was telling you to basically shut up and ride already! That I can appreciate! We do have a tendency to hem and haw and obsess about bike purchases because we want The Perfect Bike. There are plenty of bikes that will work very well for us; I don't believe in The Perfect Anything. That line of thought really limits life, in my opinion, and tends to paralyze us because we are afraid to make a mistake and end up with anything but The Perfect Whatever.

So enjoy life, don't sweat the small stuff, and just ride your bike. It's not about the bike, it's about how we feel when we are out in the wind and sun and thinking about nothing watching the fields and forests whiz by under our own strength and power.

[Triskeliongirl]

Smurf, I am gonna be really frank. In addition to finding the original post offensive, I found some of your language in other posts, for example the use of the words 'cougar' and 'broad' offensive. I am not a 'cougar' or a 'broad', I am a smart, strong, (and yes, sexy) woman. Look, I am not trying to put down youth, enjoy it! But it also sounds like you have a bit of growing up to do.

OK, got that off my chest. Now, about the bike. My advice is get the best bike that you can afford that meets your riding goals. If you want a go fast racing bike but are short on funds, you work in shop so know how to build up a frame, so get a frame and parts on ebay at good prices and do the work yourself. Or consider aluminum w carbon fork and/or stays and put up with a little more harshness to save $. Or maybe the bike you have is fine but you would benefit from new wheels. Or maybe you have diff goals, I don't know, but just be sure the bike matches those goals and you can really afford it.

I bought my Cervelo/Dura-ace, not cuz it looked hot (but sure I like that part, and it blew me away how others perceive me when I ride it), but because it was the nicest bike I ever found that fit me, that would let me improve my performance on club rides, and was on a closeout sale. I did this after paying for 4 years of college for my daughter, and 2/4 for my son, so it wasn't a finanical strain. Just the right bike turning up at the right time.

The important thing is to keep on riding, and you'll look great and feel great for the rest of your life!

[Crankin]

Well said, Trisk.
And lph, my experience has been that the heavy 50 year old guy you saw just might be able to leave you in the dust... mostly because because many who appear that way have left me in the dust while riding a heavy mountain bike on the road!
I don't like when people put labels on us because of the bike we ride. Sure, I have a light carbon road bike. It doesn't mean I don't deserve it or that I have to be a racer to enjoy it. We all spend our money differently.

[Biciclista]

I'll bet your friend who owns a bike shop in Portland tells the older women the same story, only turns it around.

"sorry for the delay. my advice.. ride what you can while you're alive, it's not like you can have a bike like that in your next life. look, you're probably as good looking as you'll ever be so buy a really sexy bike that you love and love riding.
having a hot ride now is something that you can look back on and be proud of. any 25 yr old woman can walk into a shop and wiggle her hips to get attention, but you can afford any bike in this shop - and you know you'll look great on it. it's either your time or it is someone else's....
i wouldn't spend mine deliberating..."

sounds like the sales con of the week. And I would be insulted at any age to hear it.

[Zen]

oh,cougar...http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-sick016.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

[jobob]

The shop where I bought my dream bike doesn't take American Express.

http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/pfft1.gif (http://www.millan.net)

[SadieKate]

The owner of a LBS, huh? In Portland, huh? Pray, tell us the name . . . .


so we can avoid it.

The message of "shut up and ride" is most excellent. He should listen to it before continuing to spew forth on women and his idea of sexiness. And broad and cougar? Broad doesn't bother me in the right context. Richard Burton used it as a compliment about Elizabeth Taylor. But "cougar" refers specifically to older women dating (as in preying on) younger men in a derogative way. Assuming that older women on a race team are cougars is crass in and of itself. Just because a new word seems trendy and hip, doesn't mean it is polite or to be used in any global sense.

[smurfalicious]

I guess I'm smack in the middle between the right age to buy a "hot, sexy bike" and the right age to afford one ;)

Ugh, yep, I feel ya there. Life was simpler when the greatest toy ever was Lego's. It makes sense that most of the gals I end up riding horses with are old enough to be my mom or damn near. Kids are off at school, and they're living the dream. I don't know they do it, they strangely seem to enjoy riding the same trail every weekend a walk. Buuuut, they're also financially stable enough to have sweet pickup trucks with bun warmers in the seats that I looooove on a cold morning. :D I just want a purdy bike while I'm still young and dumb enough to see just how fast and how tight I can lay it into corners until I get roadrash.


eta: I felt much the same way when I was browsing for a road bike, and a guy in his 50s, very overweight, came into the store, glanced around and casually walked out ten minutes later with the beeyoootifulll shiny sexy sleek red road bike I'd been lusting for but couldn't afford. Sure, I should have been thinking "woohoo, good for him, getting out there and getting into shape!" But I just kept thinking "waaahhh - that bike would've looked so much better going home with me!" :D

Funny related story. I was in a local shop a while back and they had just special ordered a Colnago for a customer. Total retail after they blinged it out came to over $10k. I was in shock especially since they said the guy didn't ride. His logic was that if he spent a good chunk of change, he'd be more motivated to ride it. My question was, "Did he get a 52cm and should I watch Craig's List in a month?" I've done similar things though. Thus why next bike muuuust be pretty, it must call out to me "come ride me!!!"

Coworker just got someone's old team issue GF ProCaliber in pink and grey, not fair. It has an awesome carbon flat bar on it but all the guys keep telling her flat bars suck (really? loved mine) she's decided to replace it after a very small handful of rides. RAR! Not worthy!

Meh, you're only young once, and while sometimes I want to slap whoever started that vicious rumor that your 20's are so great, might as well have fun toys. Don't know when I'll have the chance to only worry about myself and the puppies again so if it means subsisting on ramen noodles for a bit then so be it. I did it when I bought Pony my old hardtail and I can do it again.

I can promise you none of you meet the description of the 50 year old with an Amex in her wallet. You all rock, you know that because you like bikes :D and I'm sure he'd gladly roll out a few choice for anyone of you to try out until you found the one that made you feel like fastest chica in your zip code. His thing is the people who buy just because they can afford it, not because they care. Like a few years back when he had a beautiful beyond compare Titus Motolite in metallic baby blue, 14" frame. It was blinged out beyond compare with pink pedals, pink spoke nipples, LE Chris King pink hubs and headset, etc. At the time it was $5k but with prices now it would probably be $7k. A gal came in wanting to buy it for her 13 year old son because "it might fit him." Yeah, for a week until he out grows it or gets beaten up.

BTW my grandma lovingly calls herself an "old broad" all the time, thus why I put it in quotes. She's busted her tookus on horses all her life, gone to quarter horse worlds more times than I know, so she can call herself whatever she pleases in my book.

[jobob]

BTW my grandma lovingly calls herself an "old broad" all the time, thus why I put it in quotes. She's busted her tookus on horses all her life, gone to quarter horse worlds more times than I know, so she can call herself whatever she pleases in my book.

But if a perfect stranger referred to her as an old broad, and in an unkind and insulting way, wouldn't you take offense??

[Biciclista]

But if a perfect stranger referred to her as an old broad, and in an unkind and insulting way, wouldn't you take offense??

+++

[SadieKate]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

I can call myself an old broad. I have a friend who calls herself an old broad. She jokingly calls me the older broad. Any one else? It depends on who and in what context and how good a friend.

[Veronica]

Plus when one is writing, one needs to think about his/her audience. That doesn't mean always being absolutely PC, but a writer needs to think about what message he/she is sending with his/her word choice.

Veronica

[Triskeliongirl]

You know, I think we can turn this around into an interesting discussion of aging, and whether we perceive ourselves aging differently as athletic females vs our sedentary counterparts. I know the women older than me in our bike club are such models and inspirations to me of healthy aging.

I wouldn't be being honest if I didn't admit that on the most superficial of levels, youth is very physically attractive. But, as I have aged, I have also gotten fitter and healthier, and I even think about the signs of aging as badges of honor. For example, even though I am now lean and healthy, I have some loose skin over my belly from bearing two strong healthy children. That is my badge of honor that I had that life experience. Knowledge of life, accomplishment in life, are also very attractive in a person. So, I think its important for young people to be furthering their education and aspire to do great things. That's what you need to do to get beyond the superficial definition of an attractive person.

Words are important, because before we can think differently we have to act differently. So how we talk about aging effects how we think about it.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I can promise you none of you meet the description of the 50 year old with an Amex in her wallet.

Since the description said "any 50 year old woman", I think a lot of us do.

Here's your homework:
over 50... (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=7782&highlight=older+women)
Pop quiz on Friday.

[tulip]

"Broad" doesn't bother me, except if it's used in reference to my backside. Neither does "Dame."

I've never heard of "Cougar" in that context before. Only in reference to large wild cats, and I only hear about them when one decides that joggers in California are tasty.

[jobob]

We can put our guns back in their holsters and pick up those teacups again, pinkies poised. ;)

"We" can? Speak for yourself, Duck.
I don't appreciate being told how I am supposed to react to a post.

[indysteel]

Smurf, based on this thread and a few of your other threads, I have to say that you seem unduly fixated on what you have as compared to others, especially people who are wealthier and older than you. I can assure you that "keeping up with the joneses" leads to nothing but grief, emotional and financial. I would urge you to resist trying to do that.

As a 40-year old with an Amex in my pocket, I can assure you that it wasn't that way when I was your age. I was just getting out of law school, in significant school debt with $9 to my name. I didn't have much of anything until, to be frank, fairly recently. Even when I started to earn a decent income, I resisted the urge to go into debt for the things that I wanted. Instead, I paid off my school loans. I saved. I bought a house. I invested. I gave to charity. I saved some more.

While I allowed myself a few nice things and some budget European vacations, I tried very hard to resist any sense of entitlement. I also tried to resist envy, even though I have many friends who have much more than I do--either because they have a more lucrative career, inherited it or married into it. The trappings of wealth are superficially nice, but I'd rather value my life by other things: my health, my dear BF, my friends, my volunteer work, my pets, my hobbies, my career.

I simply hate how it feels to desire all the time. It's incredibly toxic. Instead, I carefully evaluate the wants that I have and measure them against what I otherwise want and value in my life. Because of that, I live well within my means. I refuse to buy things that I can afford. I find much more joy in my financial stability than I do any material item.

I don't fault you for wanting a really nice bike, and if you can truly afford it, knock yourself out. But if you can't or can only afford a less expensive bike, then accept that with grace and focus on other things. If your friend in Portland advised you to buy the bike you want but can't afford just because "you're only young once," then I assure you that he did not give you the best advice ever.

I understand that you live in a town where there's lots of money and work with people who harass you about your bike. So, I'm not saying it's going to easy to resist wanting more than you can afford, but ultimately, you can choose to ignore it. If nothing else, please keep your bike lust in perspective. You may decide to eat ramen noodles for a year simply so you can afford to buy a bike, but don't forget that lots of other people eat ramen noodles simply so they can afford their rent or buy medicine for their kids or keep the heat on during the winter.

Frankly, I think you might benefit from getting a a dose of reality/different perspective in Boulder. I would encourage you to volunteer with a group that helps people who are disadvantaged in some way. IMO, getting outside your own head (and away from the people who put you down all the time), might do you some good.

[GLC1968]

Personally, I don't really find this offensive in its current form. Had he come on here and posted this himself, then yes, it would be worth ripping him a new one.

I just see this as a conversation between friends. It wasn't intended for my ears, so I'm not going to take it as a personal offense. Hell, it may not even be how he feels about 50 year old women...he might have just said it to make a point to his young friend. We can't know, because we don't know him.

I do think that perhaps smurf should have thought twice before posting his exact words on a forum where a large % of the audience is over 50, though.

[Triskeliongirl]

I am sorry if this is perceived as an attack on smurf, but its not. I view it as sensitivity training, and perhaps we have helped her by letting her know that aging doesn't have to be the way she has been perceiving it.

[jillm]

8739

I thought I'd submit it in this thread instead!

[jobob]

Will there be shorts too? Much more accurate for me. :p :D

[tulip]

Sign me up!

[Selkie]

I agree with a lot of the responses to the OP, Indysteel's in particular. I hesitated about posting a response because I get very emotional about what I perceive as misogynistic comments.

I don't really care about the OP's friend's motivations. His comments were offensive and ignorant (as in an idiot) --- "you'll never look as you do now" because you're younger? Would he have said this to a male friend? I think not. There is more helpful advice that he could have given to the OP, IMHO.

I'm 46 and I have an AMEX card. I have worked hard, fought gender discrimination, to do well in my career. No, I don't want to be 20 or even 30.

It never amazes me the way society treats females over 40 - we are truly the "hidden" victims of discrimination.

A word like "cougar" does not belong on this forum.

[Miranda]

(the jersey...)

I thought I'd submit it in this thread instead!

OK, I was feeling a bit grumpy and blue... this jersey made me howl lol when it popped up. Thx, I love this forum:D.

[SadieKate]

My matching shorts could say "load."

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

My matching shorts could say "load."
But what if you forgot to wear the jersey and only wore the shorts one day? :eek:

[redrhodie]

But what if you forgot to wear the jersey and only wore the shorts one day? :eek:

Ahahahahhahahhhaaaa!!!

[SadieKate]

Only the smart people would get the true meaning. The rest? Who cares?

[Zen]

My matching shorts could say "load."

I can think of a number of jerseys that would coordinate with that ;)

[OakLeaf]

My matching shorts could say "load."

I just have to remember to tie a red flag to my *ss...

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I just have to remember to tie a red flag to my *ss...

NOTE: Don't do this while bicycling by a pasture of bulls.

[beccaB]

I need a very expensive flute before I get a very expensive bike. ( I'm doing a 180 from where this conversation was going, but wanted to put in mt 2 cents anyway) I love my $500 hybrid bike. It has made me a lean, mean fighting machine. I get carded for beer, but that's usually when the sign says " we card everyone under 40" A young man at Foot Locker had my liscense in his hand because I wrote a check and he says to me " there's no way you were born in 1961!" I am better, faster, stronger, and less ugly than I was at 18. Not that it should matter to anyone.

[Veronica]

I showed the OP to my honey this morning. He laughed and said, "Men are stupid and like big b00bs." Then he reminded me that genetically men are programmed to find women of breeding age attractive. It doesn't mean that older women aren't attractive. Then he had to tell me how well I'm aging. :D

He also said that if a man is checking you out, it really doesn't matter what bike you're riding. It's not about the bike...it's how you look in spandex. Finally, he thinks this thread is worthless without pics.

Veronica

[beccaB]

pics of what- bikes I assume?

[jobob]

You have trained him well, grasshopper.

[Aggie_Ama]

I think all you 50+ women should add a picture of your bikes.

[Biciclista]

http://www.sersale.org/bike/cavalletta.jpg

[Aggie_Ama]

Mimi never needs much coaxing to post her gorgeous bike! :D

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I am better, faster, stronger, and less ugly than I was at 18. Not that it should matter to anyone.

Don't forget wiser.

Personally, I think I look way more beautiful now at 54 than I did in my 20's or 30's. My husband agrees. :p We both seem to get more attractive and sexier every year...(or at least we think so!) :D

[uforgot]

Mimi never needs much coaxing to post her gorgeous bike! :D

And I never get tired of drooling over it.

[Zen]

I didn't even have a bike when I was twenty so I'm automatically way better looking now!

[jobob]

LOL, ditto.

Smurf, on one hand I feel bad for your plight. Mid-20's can be rough.

But on the other hand, here you are expending lots of bandwidth bemoaning the fact that you can't afford a fancy-azz bike, and subtly cutting down those of us who can.

Well, guess what honey, when I was your age I couldn't afford that kind of stuff either. I'll venture a guess that many of us here couldn't.

In my mid 20's I was a very po' grad student, living in a drafty rental house with a bunch of other po' grad students and even more mice :p. We could barely afford the heating bills and winters in Boston were cold. And there were times when I was very, very unhappy.

So while I empathize to some extent with your plight, another part of me says suck it up and work towards building a secure future for yourself, and eventually you'll be able to afford the goodies that you so desperately yearn for now.

Yeah, maybe you won't be the sexy young thing you are now by the time you can afford them, but well, them's the breaks.

[redrhodie]

When I was 20-something, I lived in a "one bedroom" apt in NYC that had a bathtub in the kitchen. I built a loft in the "bedroom" that fit a twin size futon, and hung my clothes underneath, because there was no closet. The window in the "bedroom" which was probably the only reason it was not called a "closet," looked into another couple's apartment, where I could see them having sex, which they liked to do standing in front of the window. Maybe their bedroom was too small for even a twin size bed!

I had no bike. I had no credit card, because back then, you had to have credit history to get a credit card. It was a smart catch 22, which kept us from doing stupid things like spending more than we earned.

I had student loans, and made just enough money to pay rent, bills and eat. Then, once I had to start paying my loans, I got a roommate so I'd still have enough money to eat. That roommate is still my dbf now, 18 years later.

20s are hard. We've been there, Smurf.

[sgtiger]

Mimi never needs much coaxing to post her gorgeous bike! :D


And I never get tired of drooling over it.

It's even more gorgeous in person, especially with Mimi on it!

[ny biker]

When I was 20-something, I lived in a "one bedroom" apt in NYC that had a bathtub in the kitchen. I built a loft in the "bedroom" that fit a twin size futon, and hung my clothes underneath, because there was no closet. The window in the "bedroom" which was probably the only reason it was not called a "closet," looked into another couples apartment, where I could see them having sex, which they liked to do standing in front of the window. Maybe their bedroom was too small for even a twin size bed!



Cheez, when I lived in NYC I had to pay for basic cable in order to watch other people having sex. You got free entertainment!:eek:

p.s. speaking of exhibitionists, I would just like to point out that Madonna is a 50-year-old woman who no doubt has an Amex card. And she could probably snap Smurf's friend in half. (She could probably snap most guys in half.)

[redrhodie]

Cheez, when I lived in NYC I had to pay for basic cable in order to watch other people having sex. You got free entertainment!:eek:



Cable?! I wish--I couldn't afford cable!

[Biciclista]

Yeah, when I was in my 20's I didn't have a bike either. COuldn't afford one. Had to chose between going to college and eating, so I picked eating and dropped out of college and got a job. I drove broken down old cars and didn't have car insurance!!
i wish I could be in a 20 year old body again, but, with all the sense and knowledge and physical strength and stick-to-itiveness I have now!

[Veronica]

Youth is wasted on the young.

That made no sense when I was young. :D

Veronica

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Cheez, when I lived in NYC I had to pay for basic cable in order to watch other people having sex. You got free entertainment!:eek:

Oh YEAH????...well when *I* lived in NYC they hadn't INVENTED cable tv yet. Most people didn't even have color tv yet. Or cordless phones. Or even push-button phones. Or digital watches and clocks. Or cds, DVDs, no video tapes or cassette players, or even 8-track tapes! or personal computers, internet, email, fax machines, microwave ovens, personal copiers, Walkmans (it was only transistor radios then), boom boxes, word processors (anyone remember typewriters & carbon paper?) or skateboards, roller blades...credit cards?- only for rich folk and executives.... oh I can go on and on but I'm feeling ancient at this point. (and yet somehow still hot!) :D


p.s. speaking of exhibitionists, I would just like to point out that Madonna is a 50-year-old woman who no doubt has an Amex card. And she could probably snap Smurf's friend in half. (She could probably snap most guys in half.)

First she'd adopt him, then snap him in half. :D :cool:

[Crankin]

Oy. This is making me laugh.
Re: how we feel about ourselves compared to how we looked/felt earlier in our lives.
I recently came across a family picture, taken in 1997. I was in the middle of my "sick of going to the gym" phase and half heartedly working out. My husband played tennis and vigorously declined any other sort of physical activity.
I saw a 40 something guy with a big belly, waiting for a heart attack. When I looked at myself, I saw a perimenopausal woman who was getting pretty wide, despite the nice hair cut and stylish jeans.
I showed the picture to my husband who said, "Geez, we look a lot better now!" And then we both said we wished we had started cycling a lot sooner!

[uforgot]

p.s. speaking of exhibitionists, I would just like to point out that Madonna is a 50-year-old woman who no doubt has an Amex card. And she could probably snap Smurf's friend in half. (She could probably snap most guys in half.)

Is it just me or am I aging and forgetting. It seems to me that when Madonna first became popular she was pretty close to my age, within a year, and now she's four years younger. How does that work???

[Biciclista]

Is it just me or am I aging and forgetting. It seems to me that when Madonna first became popular she was pretty close to my age, within a year, and now she's four years younger. How does that work???

Her actual birth date is August 16, 1958. She will be 51 this year...not in her early 40s as WikiAnswers stated when asked, "How old is Madonna."

[OakLeaf]

Cable?! I wish--I couldn't afford cable!

Cable? I couldn't afford a TV!

Or furniture, apart from the delightful enormous dresser I got for $10 from Goodwill (and still own, a perfect place for blankets and cycling clothes). I was afraid of what kind of bedding I might be able to afford there :p I slept in a sleeping bag on the floor until I married my first husband.

I had a bike, which was this weird thing called "transportation," since I didn't have a car.

[Zen]

WELL I HAD TO WALK TO SCHOOL BAREFOOT IN THE SNOW AND IT WAS UPHILL THERE AND BACK :p .

[lph]

and you probably had to get up before you went to bed, too.

And young people of today - they just don't believe it! :D

[ny biker]

When I was in grad school, I lived in a studio apartment in Evanston, IL. There was a futon on the floor, which was my bed and my sofa. I had two chairs and an end table that I found at a garage sale, but the chairs were uncomfortable, so they were mostly for decorative purposes. My dresser was from a garage sale, too.

The windows were all really old and had gaps around them. I pushed plastic grocery bags into the gaps in a feeble attempt to keep the cold air out in the winter.

Ironically, this place had a separate kitchen, and it was the only apartment I've ever had that had room for a table in the kitchen. I had a cheap metal table that I must have gotten at Kmart or some such. There was a nice set of french doors (again, the only time I've ever had anything like that) between the kitchen and the main room. But there was no radiator in the kitchen, so in the winter I had to keep the doors closed in order to keep the temperature reasonable in the main room. Which meant I had to wear my coat and hat when I went into the kitchen to make the ramen noodles or macaroni and cheese (with diced hotdogs mixed in and some peas for color, of course.)

I had a 13-inch TV that my parents had given me as a gift.

When I lived there, I told myself that someday I would look back and figure those were the good old days when life was simple.

When I graduated and started working, the first thing I did was go out and buy myself a stereo. Which I still have, 20 years later. I did replace the tape deck with a CD player.

[uforgot]

WELL I HAD TO WALK TO SCHOOL BAREFOOT IN THE SNOW AND IT WAS UPHILL THERE AND BACK :p .

Well, I rode my bike to school and I was verrrry sexy because I was so young!:D

[divingbiker]

When I graduated and started working, the first thing I did was go out and buy myself a stereo.

My first purchase was a washer and dryer. I grew up going to the laundromat, so having my own W/D meant I had made it!

[Tokie]

The theme of this thread has kind of changed. My only claim to suffering in college that is of any amusement is that I always had a "party line" for phone service. A good $ saver. I remember being on hold while trying to make airline reservations to go home for Christmas (thanks to Mom and Dad). I was on hold for a long time, and the other "party" came on the phone and yelled at my for tying up "our " line. Housing was always fairly decent and affordable in Pocatello Idaho! by the way, I am too silly to be hot. Tokie

[jobob]

WELL I HAD TO WALK TO SCHOOL BAREFOOT IN THE SNOW AND IT WAS UPHILL THERE AND BACK :p .

You win. :D

[smurfalicious]

Ya know, I've tried to redirect this, tried to ignore it, and I've flat out had it. So, I have a few things to say before I bow out.

I've decided that a combination of being "internet brave" and a desperate need to feel always feel offended/insulted is a dangerous thing. I should have known that though, because in my travels I've discovered that's just how some people are. It's like their body kicks out endorphins whenever they're aghast at something. This is the part where you tell me at my age I couldn't possibly know a thing about humanity. The awesome part about this is as long as you were born before 1/26/82 you can use that line all the way to your grave!

The way I see it, if that offends you maybe it's because you see that in yourself. I've seen numerous sweeping generalizations about "hicks in pickup trucks," that were far from kind. As a pickup driving country girl I could let that get under my skin, but I know that's not me, I'm not the jerk clipping folks with their rear view mirror and I recycle my beer cans so I have no plans to chuck it at you. I don't think of ANY of you ladies as the type to run out and buy a bike as a status symbol just because you can. That got lost in translation and once again I'm going to apologize but it will be ignored because being indignant is more fun than accepting apologies. I have the utmost respect for all of you but apparently that doesn't go both ways or you wouldn't have lit into me from every direction and then consoled yourselves calling it "sensitivity training."

I could totally see if I was totally new around here that perhaps people might think I was trolling for hissy fits. However since 99% of you have read my posts you probably have a feel for my sense of humor. Yeah a lot gets lost in translation and I believe I apologized for that several times but rather than let it go, the same folks who were so offended turned around and spit venom towards me, put words in my mouth, and made wholly unfounded judgments about myself and my friend. Hold on, I'm trying really hard to find the equation where two wrongs make a right, but since I'm, what was it, "Not the sharpest tool in the shed," I've forgotten my 6th grade math.

Here's the thing, every has a different sense of humor, thus the success of Borat. That makes life interesting. I was having a pretty craptacular week and my buddy's comments made me laugh my butt off. I realize not everyone finds the things I do amusing but if we only shared whitewashed Beaver Cleaver stuff I think this would be a pretty dull forum. I personally turned Borat off and was grateful I had the 5 at a time plan from Netflix, I suppose a similar theory could apply here.

As for words, they're only what you let them be. They only have the power you give them. After participating in my school's production of the Vagina Monologues I came to love "See you next Tuesday." It has a great ring to it in my book. I don't think cougar is bad at all. Guys get called much worse and hey if a woman is foxy enough to snag the youngins good for her, she can train um! :D One of the girls who worked in our office (now in Cali with her sweet BlkMrkt dirt jump bike) is a top ranked downhill superstar. She's a few years older than me, maybe 30, but since all the young boys in the scene chase her cuz she's a little hotty we call her a cougar and she wears it with pride. I say take it, own it, it loses its power. Perhaps I'm too young or spent too much time around old cowboys, but I've never heard anyone utter "broad" in a less than endearing manner.

Further, if anyone is going to get butthurt about this whole thing it should be me! "You're as good looking as you'll ever be." Eh hem! That's a nice way of saying "Hey, I saw you at InterBike and you aren't the cute little mountain bike racer you used to be."

And for the record, youth is not wasted on the young, and I have the xrays to prove it! Hey, if riding bulls, bikes, horses, and other objects that I can get tossed off of sends my chiropractor on a nice Hawaiian vacation, then it all balances out.

Anyway, it's late and I need to hop in the shower and get ready for my hot first date tomorrow with the purdy 2008 Blue RC7 my coworker's shop ordered for me (Gasp! The "sales pitch" failed, I bought from someone else!). It's been real, it's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun. I'll miss shooting the breeze with you all, but if I wanted histrionics (very big word for a dull hoe) I'd hang out on the RBR or MTBR forums.

[uforgot]

You win. :D

I don't know, I think I want to see a picture of the hill...

[Tuckervill]

I don't think cougar is bad at all. Guys get called much worse

I know you've left, Smurf, but if you come back and you probably will, I'd like to know what exactly guys get called that are worse? The most insulting gender-specific word I know is directed at women, not men. And yes, I've seen the Monologues.

Karen

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

WELL I HAD TO WALK TO SCHOOL BAREFOOT IN THE SNOW AND IT WAS UPHILL THERE AND BACK :p .

Hey wait! ....I had to walk to school barefoot in the snow in NYC and the snow hid all the broken glass, spit puddles, smoldering cigarette butts, and dog poo!! :eek:

[Biciclista]

Me too! I had to walk through the streets of Newark, NJ and since my mother couldn't afford to buy me my own house key, I had to climb into the house through a window.
We did walk to school up and down hilly streets in the snow, but I confess that I did wear shoes in the snow.

[Possegal]

Oh yeah, well I carried my tuba up hills both ways in the snow with no shoes on. :)

[uforgot]

I had to climb into the house through a window.


And you had to climb in and out at, oh, say, 1am? 2am?

[OakLeaf]

Dang Zen, your school must have been on one of those roads we ride on...

[batsheva]

congratulations ladies--

this series of posts, well meaning or not, has obviously upset one of our sisters enough that she feels she doesn;t want to be on this forum anymore-- I was appalled at the comments directed at her when I read it all. the whole 'conversation' - irrelevant of who was in the right or wrong - doesn;t make me very proud of being a part of this forum right now.. we're here to support each other, not criticize and make personal remarks.

perhaps I will get some of the negative comments now, for saying this, but all of us have sent emails or made remarks that were miscontrued by others in our time and i for one, no doubt, will do so again in the future. i can only hope i will be met with more understanding than smurf, when that inevitably happens..

batsheva

[Veronica]

Wait, what about all those people who were or have been offended by Smurf's posts? I guess their feelings don't count because they didn't decide to announce they were leaving. They decided to suck up their bad feelings, realized that this is the Internet and some things get lost in translation and moved on.

I think people were trying to be supportive in a very direct way. If you ask for advice, you're going to get it here and you may not always like it. I know that some of the comments made in some of my threads about my difficult class have really p!ssed me off. Too bad for me. If I don't like the comments, I don't have to read them.

Veronica

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Batsheva,
I think this forum is wonderfully supportive and positive towards women. Which is exactly why so many were appalled by the message and intent presented in the original post. Many of us found it to be strongly derogatory and insulting towards older women. I feel that most all of the responses were actually constructive attempts to point out why this kind of message is simply not acceptable to us as active, accepting, thoughtful, and supportive women. Yet instead of any sincerity and reflection, I have seen only defensive posturing and excuse making in return. Well, if you throw out negative attitudes, you can't expect no one to respond.
Sorry, but I think that respect for, and the feelings of, at least half the women on TE counts for something. Frankly, I would have felt ashamed for us all if no one reacted strongly to the original post. Overall, I think there are valuable attitudes and experiences to be absorbed by all of us from this thread and the subsequent thread about how our perceived appearance effects our sense of self worth. I would be willing to bet that there have been many women helped by this self reflection. That includes myself. I have read some profound and inspiring accounts from many women on this and the other thread. We can all benefit from thinking about our attitudes, no matter how young or old we are. We can all learn from each other as we go through life. :)

[Aggie_Ama]

I am sorry Smurf felt she had to go but the post that started this was a loaded gun. I hope she finds what she is looking for in a bike and hope it is everything she wants. Some of the advice in this thread was a bit judgmental/pointed but I honestly thought even if it was harsh it was meant with loving intentions. It also sparked some interesting and thought provoking debate.

Smurf herself gave me a post about my dog that I shouldn't feed her what the vet said and should take my potentially dying dog off the food he prescribed and get her on something else. I cried and agonized over who was right until my husband told me he was trusting his friend (also a vet) because he knew his education from attending school together. She meant well telling me she didn't think Science Diet was right and I know that. I didn't hold a grudge to her our the several others that agreed with her. My husband and I just made our own decision.

So yeah, people get feelings hurt. It is part of being adults. We suck it up, we say "that is their opinion and I can accept it" or we can't and remove ourselves. She has chosen to remove herself which is a choice.

[alpinerabbit]

86 posts and one member leaving over what made me grin... and click away... have you nothing better to do than get offended at something like this. People are dying out there in the world. For Goodness sake.

[Zen]

Wall said, Rabbit.
It's not the first time and probably won't be the last.

I enjoyed the evolution of the thread.



Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road.
A heavy rain was falling. Coming around the bend,
they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash,
unable to cross the intersection.

"Come on, girl," said the first monk. Lifting her
in his arms, he carried her over the mud.

The second monk did not speak again until that night
when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer
could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females,"
he said. "It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"

"I left the girl there," the first monk said.
"Are you still carrying her?"


.....

[lunacycles]

Being on the industry side of cycling, I wanted to stay out of this thread. The bike pitch presented to Smurf sounded pretty par for the course of what I hear on the inside all of the time, unfortunately.

What I did appreciate were women "who have been there" speaking up about what felt offensive to them about that bike pitch. Perhaps it wasn't 100% respectful, but it seemed pretty decently handled by all to me, while also honest. A lot of people went out of their way to stand up for Smurf as a person while still speaking their mind about what was offensive to them, and why.

I think Smurf is young enough that she has perhaps come of age somewhat in the "post-feminist" era, so words that sting our generation don't have the same weight for hers. That is just a theory, of course.

I can tell you very clearly that sexism is alive and well on the inside of this industry, and it is often a taboo subject. Women don't complain, women are underrepresented, so nothing really changes except in really "token" ways (or if it leads to higher sales). Sorry if that sounds cynical, but I have been doing this long enough to really see this as true.

I recently posted on a framebuilder subforum of a very popular road-centric forum (that is approx 98% male membership). There is no point re-hashing it here except to say that one of the highly regarded members of on the forum felt it appropriate to call me hormonal. "PMS gotcha down?" is exactly the words he chose. OK, these things happen, but what was appalling to me is that no one spoke up, no one Finally his post was removed by another moderator, but that was the end of it.

This wasn't the first time something like that happened, and it won't be the last.

So, I pretty much fall on my knees in gratitude when women speak up as a group with regard to sexism in cycling. I have nothing personal against Smurf, but it is painful to hear her only hear the words of her forum "sisters" as an attack on her personally, instead of taking them to heart. Questioning her intelligence probably didn't help keep her engaged, but still. I was sorry to see it resulted in her departure.

[lph]

I think people were trying to be supportive in a very direct way. If you ask for advice, you're going to get it here and you may not always like it.

That's true, but she wasn't asking for advice or even for comments, she was just passing on somebody elses opinion that she found amusing.

I wasn't offended so I can't say for sure, but to me some of the responses were a lot more offensively worded than the original post.

I hope you hang around Smurf, I like having you here.

[SadieKate]

I can tell you very clearly that sexism is alive and well on the inside of this industry, and it is often a taboo subject. Women don't complain, women are underrepresented, so nothing really changes except in really "token" ways (or if it leads to higher sales). Sorry if that sounds cynical, but I have been doing this long enough to really see this as true.There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.

I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.

[lunacycles]

There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.

I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.

We are speaking of the same forum. We both know about this builder. After one of my posts earning a virtual pile on from the boys in that club, I got lots of "off list" emails from women (and some men) giving me support. And african american readers, too. All off list. I tried speaking up for myself, as a woman, there. Not a good idea unless you want to feel very, very isolated. I am isolated enough with the career I chose!

But one woman wrote me something that helped me understand and walk away less angry: "they don't even know what they don't know." That, I am afraid, sums it up for me.


86 posts and one member leaving over what made me grin... and click away... have you nothing better to do than get offended at something like this. People are dying out there in the world. For Goodness sake.

I think issues like sexism and the fact of people dying out there in the world--especially those dying due to violence, greed and starvation--are quite connected.


Two monks were once traveling together down a muddy road.

Zen, I know that story. The funny thing is, that story is about the danger of holding onto views that keep us separated, that disallow compassionate action. Do you really think that applies here?

[PamNY]

by the way, I am too silly to be hot. Tokie

That line has GOT to be put on a T-shirt. Or an embroidered cushion. Or something.

[Zen]

The funny thing is, that story is about the danger of holding onto views that keep us separated, that disallow compassionate action. Do you really think that applies here?

The moral of the parable is to let it go or it will forever be a burden.

[lunacycles]

The moral of the parable is to let it go or it will forever be a burden.

In the zen tradition of "call and response"...I think it goes a little deeper than that.

[Pedal Wench]

Brilliant responses, Margo. Thank you for putting it in perspective.

[Selkie]

My emotional post was the result of the "friend's" comments, which obviously seemed to upset Smurf as well ("you'll never look as hot as you do now..."). Smurf has a unique outlook, which is something I appreciate. She's an interesting person and she's still making her way, as we all did in our 20s.

I admit that I can be a feminazi when I see women marginalized. I especially get upset when I see women doing it to each other, probably because I've "fought the fight" professionally. Now it seems some of us are fighting a new one: ageism plus sexism.

Quite honestly, it heartened me to see the over 40s here be vocal instead of letting some things go unsaid. How does someone know when they are being offensive unless another person(s) point it out? We all have different styles, some more direct than others. I don't think anyone intended to be mean but I didn't get the impression - based on Smurf's posts - that she really took in a lot of the advice that she sought here.

Margo, you are 100% correct.

[Triskeliongirl]

Margo, I really appreciated your remarks. I was the first to call Smurf on this, so of course I felt bad when she chose to leave us. That was not my intention at all, but once she used the 'cougar' term, it really touched something deep inside me.

Of course we are the product of the gender discrimination we faced when we were young (yeh, I remember being the only women in my college physical chemistry class, being asked by the prof why I wasn't home making babies........). But I thought todays young people were over all that. Maybe I am biased since my daughter attends Wellesley College, one of the few womens colleges left, and is even more sensitive to gender discrimination, even in its most subtle forms, than I am.

Smurf, if you are reading this please come back. Our remarks weren't meant to chase you away, just to make you a little more sensitive to how your comments made others feel.

[snapdragen]

not worth the effort.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I haven't read this whole thread, but as an over 50 person, I found the OP funny.
There was no reason to to the usual TE dogpile on smurf. I'm so tired of seeing women driven off this board. So much for being supportive.

First, I think it's good to read the whole thread in order to evaluate it. A lot of wise and thoughtful advice and personal feelings and experiences were expressed in it, and also in the sister thread that it spawned. A lot of effort went in to some of the responses...from all viewpoints.
It's been an enlightening discussion and has made a lot of us think about the issues- and important issues they are!

My personal view is this...
Some members found the original post funny. That's fine, and that's their right. But many members were offended and angered by the blatant age and sex discrimination being offered up as lighthearted humor. I found most of the responses to be well thought out, an attempt to point out why this material was not supportive towards women, but derogatory. Criticism was mostly offered in a constructive thoughtful way, not in a nasty hurtful way. I didn't see it as 'dogpiling'. Rather, it's a subject that many women feel strongly about, for one reason or another.

Sometimes people choose to leave forums when they post something that elicits a strong negative reaction from many members. That's their choice- they can stay and respectfully consider what people say and then take it or leave it, they can participate (or not) in the discussion of the issue...a discussion which eventually winds down after everyone expresses their views. Or they can announce that they are leaving. I personally don't see it as being 'driven off'. We all have the very same choices, and we all are (or should be) willing to take responsibility for what we post here. None of us expect everyone to agree with what we post here. I have had my own share of people disliking or criticizing my posts and my views here. It happens. It makes me think and consider.

Is there not room here for both views to be expressed? If someone posts something that is sexist or discriminatory and some people think it's funny but others are offended, are the offended ones supposed to just keep quiet? Is that what 'being supportive' means?

What if that fellow who wrote the remarks to Smurf in the original post had come on TE as a member and posted his bike buying 'advice' directly here himself? (I know I know, not bloody likely, but what if?...) Would we all be expected to be 'supportive' of him instead of pointing out to him what a negative attitude we think it presents?

Makes me think. Thinking is good. Sometimes I think it's good to 'keep quiet if you can't say something nice', sometimes maybe not so much.

[ny biker]

There is a VERY popular frame builder posting to another forum in which I participate. He is has toned it down some, but he used to regularly post soft porn pics of women and makes all kinds of sexist comments. He may give kudos to a woman racer for her results but in the same breath will comment about her physical beauty or lack thereof.

I wouldn't ever want one of his bikes though he's one of the most "respected" builders out there and his frames are in such high demand that he's closed his order list.

Why are we keeping his name a secret? I'm sure I'm not the only person here who gets requests for advice from friends and colleagues who want to buy a bike. It's helpful to know who deserves a recommendation and who doesn't.

[salsabike]

Wait, what about all those people who were or have been offended by Smurf's posts? I guess their feelings don't count because they didn't decide to announce they were leaving. They decided to suck up their bad feelings, realized that this is the Internet and some things get lost in translation and moved on.

Veronica


I did just read this entire thread from top to bottom. I think Veronica and BSG have this pretty much right. The OP posted something she knew might offend people. Some people got offended and said so. A couple of them said it rudely; others said it without being insulting. Quite a lot of the comments were positive.

I don't think that someone deciding to leave always and automatically equates to someone being "driven off". And actually it seems that the OP has asked for, and received, quite a lot of support on this board in other threads.

I continue to think that in general TE is far better mannered than many other bike boards. Not perfect. But pretty darn good.

[Biciclista]

Yes, I agree with Salsa and Bleek.

And NY Biker, if you want to know, send a PM to any of the people discussing that frame maker. i'm sure they'll tell you in private.

Smurf, come on back. Some of our wisdom might rub off on you.
meow!

[tctrek]

I've read the entire conversation and I think Smurf posted what she wanted to post... she *knew* that the 50 year old woman comment would sting, because she put "no offense to 50 year old...". But, to her it must have been relevant to post the entire thing even though she could have easily edited it to remove the offensive part of it.

Then others both over and under 50 put their thoughts about it and posted what they wanted to post. The thread took some hilarious twists and turns.

I think if Smurf left over something this trivial, she's younger in her behavior then she is in years. It's just plain silly and unwarranted.

[SadieKate]

Why are we keeping his name a secret? Because it could be called libel.

You want to ask about individual builders? We can give you some opinions publicly and some in private - and always with caution.

[fidlfreek]

Ok everyone - deep breaths! - I think Smurf just had a friend who meant to say "cut the s*** and just ride the best bike you can buy cause life is short"

Amen to that. Ladies, I was that person who debated endlessly...and just ended up pinching my nose and jumping in and love the bike I chose. But I would have equally loved the Cervelo, or Scott, or Orbea I'm sure.

She shouldn't leave - because she was just passing on what for her was wisdom. And for people like me it would have also been good advice!

[sundial]

Ok everyone - deep breaths! - I think Smurf just had a friend who meant to say "cut the s*** and just ride the best bike you can buy cause life is short"

Yes, but the guy's remark was delivered as a sexist, shallow remark with condescending overtones.

The irony to this is the 50 yr olds make up a market that generally has more buying power, not the 20 somethings. :cool:

[Zen]

I just think she doesn't know enough 50 year olds in real life ;)

[spindizzy]

Somehow I've missed this thread since it's inception..I've read it from top to bottom and all I have to say is "I am going to be 51 and I'm not easily offended." My 2 cents :). Btw, what's so great about AMEX - I have one in a drawer somewhere..is there something I should know? :D

[Veronica]

If you have the right AMEX you can get quite a bit of cash back if you use it for things like gas and groceries.

Offense, like beauty, is in the mind of the beholder.

Veronica

[Zen]

Why is when you give your opinion it's worth two cents but for your thoughts you're only offered a penny?

[spindizzy]

I never thought of that...:D..Zen you are deep!

[Zen]

:D..Zen you are deep!
I wish I could take credit for that one, but no :o