Stem and Hoods questions

[GraysonKelly]

Hi all,
Thanks again for all your wonderful words and support when I was in a funk last week...I appreciate it. I'm fairly over the funk...at the moment. And I wish to pick your brains again...

I am almost perfectly comfortable on my road bike (incidentally I call her that but she's technically a touring bike, does that make a difference?), but I am still having issues with reach. I have moved my saddle forward, back, sideways (just kidding) I have raised it, lowered it but I am still uncomfortable with the reach to my handle bars, ie my elbows are almost always completely extended and I am not comfortable reaching the drops or even the brifters. The only way I can reach just the flat part of the bar with my elbows slightly bent is if my seat is all the way back but then i'm practically laying flat (this is not comfortable for me). My LBS has raised the handle bars as much as they can and have rotated the bars as far as they can. So my questions:
Do I need a new stem?
If I do, how does one go about finding one without spending oodles of money?
And does a longer stem mean that the handle bars will raise up? Or does that mean they they will be closer to me? like horizontally? I have no idea.

Hoods problem/question: Is it possible that my hoods are too thick? They feel huge to me. it could be because I have trouble reaching them but they do feel pretty big/thick. I don't have a problem shifting or anything, but it feels a little awkward for me. I don't know if this is right, but I feel that I should be able to switch from having my hands on the flat part of bar to the hoods to shifting and back again pretty flawlessly...I can't do that and feel comfortable as it stands.
Okay, that's enough for now. Thanks again for all of your help and advice. Have a great day,
Gray
PS I am most used to riding a mountain bike. If these issues I'm bringing up are a result of me just needing more time to adjust to a road type geometry, please let me know. I am comfortable on the bike, just think that I should be a little more comfortable...if that makes sense.

[alpinerabbit]

Your bars will move closer to you if you install a stem with a steeper angle. Shouldn't cost you a fortune (from 40$ (http://www.bikesomewhere.com/bikesomewhere.cfm/product/321/4432/22790)) and I hope this does the trick (unless the bike is hopelessly too big for you). A longer stem will do the opposite.

I don't quite understand why you had the saddle moved back. This does not help IMHO. In addition you mess with the knee position over the pedal axle.


As always, pictures would help.

[GraysonKelly]

Your bars will move closer to you if you install a stem with a steeper angle. Shouldn't cost you a fortune (from 40$ (http://www.bikesomewhere.com/bikesomewhere.cfm/product/321/4432/22790)) and I hope this does the trick (unless the bike is hopelessly too big for you). A longer stem will do the opposite.

I don't quite understand why you had the saddle moved back. This does not help IMHO. In addition you mess with the knee position over the pedal axle.


As always, pictures would help.

LOL, I was trying different stuff to try and get the arm and hand position right. I moved it back because moving it forward was really, really bad. I marked my saddle so I'd know what position it was in before I started moving it hither and thither. Thanks for the clarification on the stem questions. I had a rather generic fit when I bought the bike so the bike technically "fits" but I haven't found anyone really thorough that will do a fit for me. The LBS doesn't really do much, at least from what I've seen. If anyone knows of any in the Pittsburgh area, let me know.
I have a bad knee and have a good understanding of knee kinesiolgy, biomechanics, etc so I'm extremely meticulous about this. It's the rest of it that I can't do myself. Well, I could if I could be on the bike and measure myself at the same time, but that doesn't really seem to work. :) Here's some pics of the bike, not sure what you're looking for, but here ya go.:)

[Triskeliongirl]

I bought a new bike recently, and felt exactly like you do on the stock bar while waiting for my LBS to order me the recommended bar. The bar I ended up with, called the 3T ergonova, has a long flat top, short reach, and short drop. I LOVE IT. Before getting this bar I was like you, I was using the hoods when I should be in the drops (descending), the tops for climbing, and that position behind the hoods for cruising (when I should have been in the hoods). The carbon version is expensive, but it also comes in aluminum if money is an issue. I also like this bar cuz the drops are longer than on other short reach bars. But when I was out riding I noticed what other gals had, and the bontrager VR Fit seemed quite popular, also not expensive in aluminum. But I worried the drops weren't as extended for me. But its even shorter reach (70mm) vs mine which is (77mm) if that is an important consideration for you. Salsa poco is also short reach (70mm) and popular with many, but I don't like the deeper ergo drops. FOr me, the very shallow smooth drop is better.

I also ordered some shims from specialized to bring the levers closer to the bar (these are not expensive but gruppo specific so take a look). I am waiting for those now, but if you look at my recent I got a new bike thread compare the first pic to the last to see how diff it looks with the bar change.

Looking at your set-up, you may also want to try raising the positioning of the shifters on the bar. My fitter did this as well, and had me vary that and go ride before we taped the bars.

[bike4ever]

GraysonKelly - I used to work in a shop in Mt Lebanon called TRM cycles. They have since moved to Castle Shannon, but I believe they are still under the same ownership. I remember they did a wonderful job of bike fitting.

http://trekofpgh.com/page.cfm?PageID=266

I am a huge fan of the Bontrager Fit handlebar. This bar has very little reach with a small drop. This works very well with small hands.

http://bontrager.com/model/06244/en

[GraysonKelly]

I bought a new bike recently, and felt exactly like you do on the stock bar while waiting for my LBS to order me the recommended bar. The bar I ended up with, called the 3T ergonova, has a long flat top, short reach, and short drop. I LOVE IT. Before getting this bar I was like you, I was using the hoods when I should be in the drops (descending), the tops for climbing, and that position behind the hoods for cruising (when I should have been in the hoods). The carbon version is expensive, but it also comes in aluminum if money is an issue. I also like this bar cuz the drops are longer than on other short reach bars. But when I was out riding I noticed what other gals had, and the bontrager VR Fit seemed quite popular, also not expensive in aluminum. But I worried the drops weren't as extended for me. But its even shorter reach (70mm) vs mine which is (77mm) if that is an important consideration for you. Salsa poco is also short reach (70mm) and popular with many, but I don't like the deeper ergo drops. FOr me, the very shallow smooth drop is better.

I also ordered some shims from specialized to bring the levers closer to the bar (these are not expensive but gruppo specific so take a look). I am waiting for those now, but if you look at my recent I got a new bike thread compare the first pic to the last to see how diff it looks with the bar change.

Looking at your set-up, you may also want to try raising the positioning of the shifters on the bar. My fitter did this as well, and had me vary that and go ride before we taped the bars.

ROTFL!! Trisk, thank you so much and I will go check out your post about the new bike and pics. Thank you. I'm laughing because I just spent 10 minutes reading this and looking up about every 5 words your said!!! I'm laughing at me. I'm sure when i look into this that I'll understand better what your saying, but all I got out of that right now is that a smaller set of handle bars might be a good idea. I agree with that and appreciate your advice.
Have a great day! I'm learning and ya'll just help me learn more and more, I love that. Thanks!
Gray

[GraysonKelly]

GraysonKelly - I used to work in a shop in Mt Lebanon called TRM cycles. They have since moved to Castle Shannon, but I believe they are still under the same ownership. I remember they did a wonderful job of bike fitting.

http://trekofpgh.com/page.cfm?PageID=266

I am a huge fan of the Bontrager Fit handlebar. This bar has very little reach with a small drop. This works very well with small hands.

http://bontrager.com/model/06244/en

Wow! Thanks! There's actually several locations listed for this place so I'll give them a call. As I just mentioned to Trisk, i was actually thinking that smaller handlebar might help a little. I don't think I have extremely small hands, but they aren't big (The gloves I wear are men's smalls because the women's small was too small and the medium was a little too big for my tastes). I just want to make sure I get this right because I've already got wrist issues in both wrists and don't want to make it worse.
Thanks again!
Gray

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I would rotate your bars UP so that the curved part of the bars on top right behind the hoods is level with the ground. As you have it now, you must curve your wrists down in a very awkward position to grab the hoods and wrap around the brakes. Don't worry about the bar ends being level with the ground- on ergonomic bars like yours they don't have to be.

And yes, sometimes pushing your saddle all the way back can get your center of gravity back more and help get weight off your hands.

[Triskeliongirl]

I'll try to keep it simple. Its not just about hand size. I wear a size L women's glove.

Its about flexibility and torso/arm length. You need to be able to reach your bars with a bend in your elbow, not locked out as you describe. There are two ways to bring the bar in, One is to shorten the stem one is to shorten the bar (reach not width now). I don't know what the reach is on your current bar, but I threw out same names of bars know to have relatively short reaches. Turning the bars up and repositioning the levers may also help, but then you have to be sure they don't effect how your hands feel in the drops.

What I just learned though, is how varying the drop can help. My new bar has an ususually shallow drop. That means I don't have to bend as low to reach them, which is better for my body.

What I suggest is, going to shop that may even have these bars already mounted on a bike. We started by putting another bike in a trainer that had the bar I was considering, so I could get a first impression. When it felt right, he mounted one on my bike, and set about varying the position of the brake levers until it felt perfect. Now, this was part of a new bike purchase fitting, so I probably got more attention paid to me than on a retro-fit.

But, everything I hear you saying is that you'd like your bars a bit closer to your body. The shims are about making the levers be closer to the bars when you are in the drops which is a separat but also important issue (a cheap $10 fix).

[Mr. SR500]

Saddle should be set up for your legs both power and comfort - reach adjustment comes via the stem and bike size.

I agree your bars should be rotated up, I like the top of the bars to be flat as it joins the hoods, not sloping down as you have.

You stem looks like about a 110 mm, you can easily go shorter and with a higher angle. My wife runs a 60 mm 30 degree stem. That is about as short as you want to go, but works great for her.

Looks like you have lots of adjustment to get you feeling good on your bike.

[Eden]

ah the endless quest for bike fit....

If your elbows are always straight out, I would think that just changing the bars will be unlikely to make enough difference - it sounds like you need a shorter stem, and possibly different bars.

If you do go with different bars, see if there is any way you can try them out first.... Personally though I am a small person and have small hands, I found ergo bars with a very shallow drop to be *very* uncomfortable... I was banging my forearms on the ends of the drops and actually bruising them... I prefer pretty traditional rounded bars and a decent sized drop. Though I have small hands I've never had any problems with standard levers hoods, but if its an issue for you - look into shimming your levers out a bit.

As we are all different.... I would have to disagree with Mr. SR.... for me, I like having my drops parallel to the ground... otherwise I feel like I'm all the time sliding off of them... I prefer to move my levers down to achieve a flat hood over rotating the bars (though from your photos it looks like that may be hard to do with the style of handlebar you have - it looks like there is little flat to the top of the bar...). Moving the levers down also moves them closer to the drop portion of the bar and should make them easier to reach. It seems to be in vogue these days to rotate the bars up and place the levers very high??? (or maybe my bike was just assembled by a teenager who didn't really know what he was doing) Just not comfy for me.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

You stem looks like about a 110 mm, you can easily go shorter and with a higher angle. My wife runs a 60 mm 30 degree stem. That is about as short as you want to go, but works great for her.

Yes I agree, you have a pretty long stem on there for someone with reach problems. Personally, I would recommend you try a 70 mm, and yes stay with a stem that tilts up. Perhaps an adjustable stem might be a good option too.

[Triskeliongirl]

While folks have thrown out lots of good ideas, I think the next step for you is finding a really good fitter. I know that is not easy, but it seems a previous poster gave you a good suggestion, so before you buy a new stem or bars, I would explore that. I am sorry but no matter how well meaning we are, there is no way a bunch of folks can fit you to your bike on the internet. Sure, you can collect information on solutions that have worked for others to share with your fitter, but you need to be fit by an experienced person that can watch how your body responds to subtle tweaks.

Indeed, saddle position needs to be set for power over the pedals, not to correct a reach problem. Then stem length, stem height, bar reach, drop reach, drop shape, and lever positioning, are all paramaters that can be manipulated, and are influenced by your flexibility and personal preferences. I too MUST have my bars parallel to the ground, or the drops feel wrong, but I also like them flat on top, which you can get with the right bar and lever positioning.

I figured this all out the hard way, and then only finally as part of a new bike purchase did I complete my journey by discovering that the owner of a local shop that I had never tried before has outstanding fitting skills.

Good luck to you, and keep us posted how it works.

[GraysonKelly]

Ok,
I've gotten a lot of really good information and I thank you all for taking the time to respond. Now, let me see if I understand all of this...:)
1. I need a bike fit, it's the only way I'm gonna get this really straightened out.
2. I possibly need a new stem that is shorter but still steep?
3. I could try rotating the bars up just to see if that would solve the problem.
4. I possibly need a new handlebar that is perhaps not quite as wide and isn't as "big" as the one I have now (ie I think by more shallow drops that you mean that the bars themselves curve too far forward thus making them harder for me to reach)
5. Now, the purpose of shims is to bring the actual levers closer to the bar, right?
Okay, boy, writing that out helped it make more sense. I'm gonna call that place that was mentioned and see if I can schedule a fit. I'm hoping that my LBS didn't actually sell me a bike just for the heck of it. When he sold it to me, he said it was a good size for me and it did feel good at first, but since I've been riding it on the trainer, it has been bugging me. So hopefully it's not totally wrong because I absolutely cannot afford another one.
So anyway, I appreciate all the advice and I'll keep you all posted...if I get her all fixed up I'll take some pics and show you.
Have a great day,
Gray

[Eden]

1-3 spot on
4 - shallow refers to the distance between the top of the bar and the drop. Reach - distance that the bars stick out forward, width - how wide side to side
5 -yep, shims move the lever a little closer into the bars. If you shim then your brakes does have a little less throw, but I don't think its generally an issue

[GraysonKelly]

1-3 spot on
4 - shallow refers to the distance between the top of the bar and the drop. Reach - distance that the bars stick out forward, width - how wide side to side
5 -yep, shims move the lever a little closer into the bars. If you shim then your brakes does have a little less throw, but I don't think its generally an issue

Cool! I can live with 80%! Thanks! :)

[fidlfreek]

I am a huge fan of the Bontrager Fit handlebar. This bar has very little reach with a small drop. This works very well with small hands.

http://bontrager.com/model/06244/en

I agree. I have this exact bar and love it. The drops aren't "ergo" but I don't think they feel exactly like a classic bend either. They are perfect for me with my small small hands (and I use an XS glove whenever I can find it). As a bonus I found mine on ebay for $1, plus $12 shipping..

[lunacycles]

Your reach is too far. I won't bother with telling you that your top tube is likely too long (the typical small cx bike issue for small women), but, yes, a shorter stem will help. A lot of women are tempted to do the stem-with-a big-rise/angle approach to bring the bars back, and while it technically reduces reach, it isn't the proper fix. It brings you back, slightly, but really brings you up. Unless you have profound neck/back issues, you really shouldn't shoot for a position in which your handlebar is higher than your saddle, imo, unless your bike is designed for it (and yours isn't).

While you can tilt the bars back, this is also not a great solution, as it creates a lousy platform for your hands when you are in the drops (e.g., kinked wrists). The idea mentioned of finding a bar with less drop/curve from the tops to the hoods is a good one.

When fitting yourself to your existing bike, your starting point is your saddle position. Having it in the right fore/aft position and at the proper height is important. It should be considered the baseline. From there, you can start trouble-shooting reach. (You should never move the saddle to fix reach problems, especially if you have any knee problems, although folks do it anyway.)

You mentioned the hoods feeling large. Why Shimano makes HUMONGOUS hoods these days is beyond me. They didn't used to be this way. Shims will bring in your brake levers closer to the bar, but they won't affect how the hood feels. Because you have a Shimano equipped bike, as long as you have a double crank, you can consider SRAM brifters. They are a really nice shape for small hands, without the bulbous look and feel of the Shimano version, and are compatible with Shimano 10-speed drivetrains (with double cranks,, that is).

But, like everyone else said, a professional fit is always a great idea!

[Triskeliongirl]

Margo, what do you think of Eden's remark that shimming effects the braking effeciency (I think that is what she means by 'throw' but not sure). I have shims on order for my new bike. I am fine reaching the levers and braking from the hoods, but in the drops, i.e. I couldn't ride with my fingers contacting the levers, I'd have to move them out to brake so was thinking to shim, but I don't want to compromise my braking effectiveness. I am used to ultegra 9 short reach levers. I agree, these durace 10 ones are ridiculously huge, but I am not going to change them now.


1-3 spot on
4 - shallow refers to the distance between the top of the bar and the drop. Reach - distance that the bars stick out forward, width - how wide side to side
5 -yep, shims move the lever a little closer into the bars. If you shim then your brakes does have a little less throw, but I don't think its generally an issue

[jobob]

Unless you have profound neck/back issues, you really shouldn't shoot for a position in which your handlebar is higher than your saddle, imo, unless your bike is designed for it (and yours isn't).

Why? :confused:

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Margo, what do you think of Eden's remark that shimming effects the braking effeciency (I think that is what she means by 'throw' but not sure). I have shims on order for my new bike....but I don't want to compromise my braking effectiveness. I am used to ultegra 9 short reach levers.

I'm not Margo, but...I don't think shims effect the brake efficiency- they just mean it won't take as big a lever movement for the brakes to engage the rims. Your brakes won't be 'weaker'. I think by 'throw' she meant 'play'.
I have the shims on my Ultegra 9speed short reach brifters, and I just lOVE them. I feel so much safer now that my fingers can actually get a good grip around the levers.

[GraysonKelly]

Unless you have profound neck/back issues, you really shouldn't shoot for a position in which your handlebar is higher than your saddle, imo, unless your bike is designed for it (and yours isn't).




Why? :confused:
I agree, why?

[GraysonKelly]

When fitting yourself to your existing bike, your starting point is your saddle position. Having it in the right fore/aft position and at the proper height is important. It should be considered the baseline. From there, you can start trouble-shooting reach. (You should never move the saddle to fix reach problems, especially if you have any knee problems, although folks do it anyway.)



Thanks for all the info. The only reason I messed with my fore/aft position is because that's what the LBS told me to do since he didn't know how to fix my complaint about reach without getting me a new stem (an idea which he wasn't all that enthusiastic about...in fact he seemed rather irked that I went in there several times with the same complaint). I was just experimenting when I was moving my seat up and back. Just getting a feel for it. I marked where my seat had been before I started messing around so I'd know where to put it back...did the same thing with the seat post so I'll always know where I need it to be. Like I said earlier, I'm obsessive about my knee so my thought in this whole fit process is to make sure my knees are okay and then kind of make the rest of the bike "fit" that...does that make sense? Or is that the wrong attitude? Of course I don't wanna hurt my back or shoulders and honestly nothing hurts (except my wrists in certain positions), it's just that I don't feel comfortable. I don't have the vocab to explain it better than that. But I do appreciate all your help. :)
Gray

[Ana]

Just an observation: It appears that your saddle is tilted a little bit backward from parallel to the ground (the brick background makes it easy)... How does leveling the saddle change your fit?

[GraysonKelly]

Just an observation: It appears that your saddle is tilted a little bit backward from parallel to the ground (the brick background makes it easy)... How does leveling the saddle change your fit?
That is a very good question, I don't know but I'll find out tomorrow. DP would kill me if I pulled the trainer out tonight and started messing with it. :) Thanks for the observation!
Gray

[Eden]

Margo, what do you think of Eden's remark that shimming effects the braking effeciency (I think that is what she means by 'throw' but not sure). I have shims on order for my new bike. I am fine reaching the levers and braking from the hoods, but in the drops, i.e. I couldn't ride with my fingers contacting the levers, I'd have to move them out to brake so was thinking to shim, but I don't want to compromise my braking effectiveness. I am used to ultegra 9 short reach levers. I agree, these durace 10 ones are ridiculously huge, but I am not going to change them now.

I don't think it necessarily will affect the braking efficiency, it just means you have less far to squeeze before you actuate the brake..... its not inherently negative though- just depends on how you like your brakes adjusted. If you tend to like them loose it might be harder to achieve that feel.

[Mr. SR500]

Shims work great if needed, once installed brakes are adjusted to be just as responsive.

On bar rotation, whatever your comfortable with is best. I like a flat top, because it lets me ride in the hoods all day long, and I can still do a 30 minute TT in the drops. It will also allow you to ride more aero by grasping the hoods like a gun while resting your forearms on the bar (sort like having aero bars without the aero bars). John Howard really pushes this technique and while I don't use it often, it works well.

I think your on the right track with your fitting. The first fitter I ever had always said start with the ground and work you way up. I've had different fittings over the years, but his approach was very systematic and makes sense. He started with cleats, (he was a Lemond wedge fan as well), then worked up to the saddle/seatpost, next the bar, and finally the stem. And repeat.

I'm getting ready to have Retul fitting done, and look forward to how it compares to past fittings. It uses sensors and a computer to draw a 3D image of what is going on in real time. Should be cool.

[SadieKate]

Re: the bar to saddle drop question, I'll take a stab and let Margo correct me.

Fit is all about the angle in your hips and shoulders. If you look at someone who has been properly fitted on a variety of bikes, the angle of their back/hip and then their back/arms stays relatively the same. It doesn't matter if they are on a tri bike, road racing geo, touring geo, etc. Those angles will stay about the same.

So, if your bike's geometry isn't designed for a saddle/bar drop or vice versa, you aren't going to get comfy. Take a tri-bike, you should be sitting farther forward over the crank than you would on a touring bike which means the seat tube is a different angle. This also means the front end has to be lower and longer.

There's my very garbled take on this.

[Kiwi Stoker]

I got rather excited about Margo's comment that you can mix Sram shifters with Shimano. I too hate the bulkiness of Shimano shifters as my short fingers cannot reach the brake levers very well from the hoods. I tried in the bike shop, Sram and campy shifters which are heaps narrower and the "blades" are flatter so my fingers won't slip. However I don't want to change my entire groupset as that would be expensive!

However I just checked with a Shimano expert I know and he said "yes you can but you also have to change out the front and rear derailleur as well".

Which kind of makes that option not so attractive...

[SadieKate]

Your Shimano expert needs a little larnin'.

http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

I hate Shimano road shifters. I love Campy but sometimes I need Shimano gearing. I have a road bike and a cross bike that have Campy shifters and Shimano derailleurs and cassettes. The Shiftmate works like a charm.

[indysteel]

Thanks for all the info. The only reason I messed with my fore/aft position is because that's what the LBS told me to do since he didn't know how to fix my complaint about reach without getting me a new stem (an idea which he wasn't all that enthusiastic about...in fact he seemed rather irked that I went in there several times with the same complaint). I was just experimenting when I was moving my seat up and back. Just getting a feel for it. I marked where my seat had been before I started messing around so I'd know where to put it back...did the same thing with the seat post so I'll always know where I need it to be. Like I said earlier, I'm obsessive about my knee so my thought in this whole fit process is to make sure my knees are okay and then kind of make the rest of the bike "fit" that...does that make sense? Or is that the wrong attitude? Of course I don't wanna hurt my back or shoulders and honestly nothing hurts (except my wrists in certain positions), it's just that I don't feel comfortable. I don't have the vocab to explain it better than that. But I do appreciate all your help. :)
Gray

Well, I'm irked that your shop was irked. Ordering a different length stem is hardly an unusual step to take to tweak bike fit and it's a pretty easy swap to make. Suggesting that you change your fore/aft position instead, when they know you have knee issues, is just all kinds of wrong. I have to wonder whether you're going to get the assistance you need from that shop.

At this stage, given your various issues, I think you'd be well advised to find a good fitter in your area. As a starting place to finding one, check out the websites for the bike shops in your area. I'd be willing to bet that at least one of them either employs a fitter or can refer you to one if they carry any custom bike brands, e.g., Serotta, Moots, Independent Fabrication.

Here's one that I found just doing a brief search: http://www.trizilla.com/triathlon/pc/services.asp

[GraysonKelly]

Well, I'm irked that your shop was irked. Ordering a different length stem is hardly an unusual step to take to tweak bike fit and it's a pretty easy swap to make. Suggesting that you change your fore/aft position instead, when they know you have knee issues, is just all kinds of wrong. I have to wonder whether you're going to get the assistance you need from that shop.

At this stage, given your various issues, I think you'd be well advised to find a good fitter in your area. As a starting place to finding one, check out the websites for the bike shops in your area. I'd be willing to bet that at least one of them either employs a fitter or can refer you to one if they carry any custom bike brands, e.g., Serotta, Moots, Independent Fabrication.

Here's one that I found just doing a brief search: http://www.trizilla.com/triathlon/pc/services.asp

Thank you! The guys are nice enough and I get free tune ups and stuff since I bought the bike from them. But they aren't all that willing to really help me get the bike comfortable. Anyway, I did find a shop that has a guy who does bike fits. But since it's winter he isn't in with any kind of regularity. I called yesterday and they are leaving a message for him to call me back. If he doesn't call in a week or so then I'll try again. Thanks so much.
Gray

[tulip]

Thank you! The guys are nice enough and I get free tune ups and stuff since I bought the bike from them. But they aren't all that willing to really help me get the bike comfortable. Anyway, I did find a shop that has a guy who does bike fits. But since it's winter he isn't in with any kind of regularity. I called yesterday and they are leaving a message for him to call me back. If he doesn't call in a week or so then I'll try again. Thanks so much.
Gray

Free tuneups for the first year or so is pretty standard practice, so it's not really an extra--they don't deserve extra credit for it. They should work with you for a proper fit, if for no other reason that you would be more likely to buy your next, and presumably upgrade, bike from them. I've had shops blow me off and I took my checkbook elsewhere. I know there are folks on TE from Pittsburgh, so maybe you can take a trip up there sometime (when it's warmer!)

I do agree that getting a proper fit should be your next step. Once you know what needs to be changed you can do what needs to be done and not have to futz around with this and that.

[lunacycles]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunacycles View Post
Unless you have profound neck/back issues, you really shouldn't shoot for a position in which your handlebar is higher than your saddle, imo, unless your bike is designed for it (and yours isn't).Quote:
Originally Posted by jobob View Post
Why?
I agree, why?

Having your bars higher than your saddle effectively reduces the amount of body weight that goes over the front wheel. Almost all stock bicycles (Rivendells might be the only true exception) are not designed for this kind of biased weight distribution. The result is that the bike does not handle as it should/was designed to, especially your steering. If you ride a well fitting bike that allows you to get lower without discomfort, a whole new world opens up. In addition, a conditioned body riding in a position that allows some drop from the saddle to the handlebar allows the chest to open up, and permits a more aerodynamic and aggressive position that responds more quickly and efficiently to changes in terrain. It tends to make the transition for in the saddle to out of the saddle easier and more natural. Your arms/upper body can actually contribute to the cycling process besides just handling the controls. Plus, you usually go faster.

A poster recently commented on how she switched her stem from the stock one to one that is 6cm long in order to fix her reach problem. She said it made her bike handle horribly, but she got used to it. OK. We can get used to anything, really, but my point is simply to state that this kind of "fix"--which is striving for the same goal as getting a stem with more rise--is on some level a compromise compared to what's possible as far as position goes for the average jane or joe the big bike company designs their bikes for. Unfortunately, if you are on the very small end of the spectrum, that often doesn't include you.

Riding with the vast majority of your weight over the back half of the bike can also create saddle problems, although there are certainly saddles designed for this kind of leisure riding.

A lot of small folks on smallish stock bikes that don't fit well end up in this rather upright position as it is more comfortable when compared to where they started. It is a very common way to alleviate the discomfort caused by an overly long reach--and sometimes the only way to get comfortable on a stock bike that almost fits. There is nothing wrong with that. I believe if you aren't comfortable, you won't be efficient on the bike, regardless of how you sit on the bike. But if you are comfortable and efficient, you will get more out of cycling.

And I have found women by and large prefer a higher front end/less drop from saddle to handlebar than men do. Including myself. Sage folks like Dr. Andy Pruitt often recommend a higher front end position for racers who feel they need to look like Tour de France racers but just can't find the sweet spot comfort wise, or who have incurred stress-related injuries by trying to force themselves into Lance's position without residing in Lance's body. There is a point at which coming up a bit at the front end makes a lot of sense. But there is a point at which it truly effects efficiency and handling. When the bar height exceeds the saddle height, I generally draw the line....unless it is absolutely necessary for anatomic or joint pain, and then I try to design the front end (head tube angle and fork offset) to accommodate it.

Wow that was wordy. Thanks for reading.

[lunacycles]

Margo, what do you think of Eden's remark that shimming effects the braking effeciency (I think that is what she means by 'throw' but not sure).

I think what she means is that there is less cable pulled compared to a brake lever that does not have the shim. But this doesn't affect braking efficiency in any meaningful way. I like to pull a lot of brake cable and have the shims on the brifters on one of my bikes, and have never noticed any kind of loss of braking efficiency. I think more brake efficiency is lost when my fingers are totally extended and trying to engage a brake lever. That's unpleasant. I think shims are a good solution for retrofitting Shimano brifters. Not having to shim anything, as the SRAM brifters allow, is even better:).

[jobob]

Wow that was wordy. Thanks for reading.

Thanks for 'splaining! That was interesting. :)

[hilldweller]

Thanks for 'splaining! That was interesting. :)
Yep thanks from me too. Very helpful :)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Yes that was an interesting explanation, and makes sense for this situation.

Of course I always think it's good to remember now and then that probably 90% or more of the world's active bicycle riders are neither leisure OR competitive riders- but are riding their bikes for basic transportation and for transporting things. Few of those people ride with their handlebars lower than their saddles- they ride mostly upright and they really lay on the miles on a daily basis. These are serious bike riders, not leisure riders (as most of us actually are). They would be bewildered and bemused by all our endless fussing about aerodynamics, knee position, CO2 cannisters, clipless shoes, aerobars, and carbon seatposts. :D I like thinking about this from time to time to put bike riding in perspective in my mind. ;)

[jobob]

Yes, and some of them even put baskets on their handlebars ;)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Yes, and some of them even put baskets on their handlebars ;)

Yes, and they actually have ROOM to put baskets on them since their handlebars aren't 18" from the ground! :D ;)

[lunacycles]

Of course I always think it's good to remember now and then that probably 90% or more of the world's active bicycle riders are neither leisure OR competitive riders- but are riding their bikes for basic transportation and for transporting things. Few of those people ride with their handlebars lower than their saddles- they ride mostly upright and they really lay on the miles on a daily basis. These are serious bike riders, not leisure riders (as most of us actually are).

Good point. It occurred to me later I should have asterisked the whole spiel with some reference to this referring to traditional roadie positions. Frankly, I think if people are happy with their positions and loving their bikes, regardless of what style of riding they do, then there is definitely nothing to "fix.":)

[GraysonKelly]

Good point. It occurred to me later I should have asterisked the whole spiel with some reference to this referring to traditional roadie positions. Frankly, I think if people are happy with their positions and loving their bikes, regardless of what style of riding they do, then there is definitely nothing to "fix.":)

Luna,
I appreciated all your advice on this. I knew that a lot of what I was going to get in the way of suggestions was going to be along the lines of the stuff you talked about. But it helps so much. I have read and reread all the posts, took out my bike and tried really hard to picture what you all were talking about. It helped a lot. I'm not an aggressive rider. I don't really like being in the drops...probably because I can't reach them comfortably. But I don't know what kind of rider I'll be until I get more comfortable and that really really helped that I could get all of your and other people's advice. I would say I'm a cross between a leisure/commuter/long-distance/stress relief/ because I love it rider. Not really sure there's a cookie cutter bike set up for that category...but I know from all of you that the bike needs to fit and feel good. The rest is up to me. And That's the part I really love about riding. So thank you and the rest of you for all your advice.
Have a great day!
Gray