Driving:when will you stop?

[shootingstar]

Just found out my father had his driver's license renewed after he got himself retested. He will be 80 next month. Been driving since his mid-30's. For past few years he has quietly and voluntarily withdrawn from driving in situations that he feels abit less comfortable due to age: ie. he no longer drives at night, no longer on expressways and high speed major highways and no longer out of town. He does live in a city of 2 million people.

We are secretly glad he has quietly and voluntarily withdrawing himself slowly from driving all the time/alot. He has no respiratory nor heart problems at this time. He is mobile and only requires reading glasses.

It got me thinking: As cyclists, we might tend to pride ourselves as being independent and free on our choice transportation. Same perhaps for those of us who are car drivers.

So when do you think you would stop driving when you get quite old? On doctor's/family's orders? Or voluntarily withdraw?

[Deborajen]

That's a good question - I've been giving it a lot of thought lately. In late October, I was forced to give up driving for six months (as required by Kansas State Law) after having a couple of seizures. It's been quite a change in lifestyle. I work full-time and live in a city with minimal bus service, etc., and if it weren't for my husband and college-age son at home, I don't know what I'd do.

Sounds like your father is using some good judgment in paying attention to his reflexes and reactions and his own comfort zone. Awhile back, my Grandpa voluntarily gave up his driver's license after being involved in a minor accident. He didn't feel that his reactions were good enough for driving. I think I'd give up driving if I didn't feel safe, or if my doctor told me I weren't safe. If my eyesight were a factor, I'd get my eyes checked more often - required or not. I value my independence, but not if I were putting myself and everyone around me at too much risk.

Right now, I'm on meds and haven't had any seizures since starting the meds. Although I'd love to have my independence back, the consequences of having a seizure while driving are really scary. I think that's the bottom line for me both now and when I'm older - if I can't physically and mentally handle it, I'll give it up. I don't know what I'd do if I were single now, but there are a lot of good retirement villages around here with some good transportation options.

Deb

[smurfalicious]

A very dear friend of mine was killed by an 84 year old woman. He was riding his motorcycle and has just finished passing someone and got into the right hand lane. She was leaving the hospital and pulled out right in front of him.

To watch it on the news was so painful. The DOT guy made it sound like he was an *** who got what was coming to him. Not possible that she shouldn't have been driving and ending a 25 year old life.

The day it happened my brother (his roommate and best friend) came home from work and was curious where Jared was. He got on his bike and cruised around looking for him. When he hit Stark St and saw it closed off with ambulances and police he didn't think much and went home. My dad lives next door to him and was waiting when he got home. Travis went nuts screaming, "Where is Jared!?" My dad took him to the hospital where he worked and Jared was. His internal bleeding was so bad he stood no chance.

It made me sick. Every time Travis came to visit and snowboard I waited for Jared to come in the door with him. He was like a brother to me, and I miss him.

My grandma was about 65 or so when she died of diabetes complications. When she went for her dialysis treatments she took the bus that Tri-Met provided for the elderly. She was perfectly capable of driving but saw it best to take the bus. I just wonder why that woman couldn't have? 80 friggin 4. Her pride, and freedom were not worth such a young life being taken.

The most sickening part of the story is that Jared had two step siblings that he loved to bits. When he and my brother got street bikes they took out life insurance policies. Jared's was intended to put his step siblings to college. His mom used it to buy herself a new Lexus. UGH!

[smilingcat]

Hi Smurf,

I'm sorry to hear about your friend and what his mom did. So many questions and all still very painful. We all try to move forward in life after such tragedy; but, it is part of us. Our spirit is resilient and we continue on. Remember the good times, remember the sad times and remember the goodness of your friend.

When to give up. I've known only one man who was willing to give up his license. The rest had to have it taken away by the state. My father was a terrible. It was a sad day to have him declared not fit to drive and "force" the state to take away his license. That was like 4 years ago. He still thinks he can drive. My sister and I just can't live the thought of if our father drove and killed an innocent person.

When will I give up? I hope when I still have enough sense to say No more. The trouble with this is though, having seen my father, our judgment is impared so we can't drive. And the same judgement is needed to say no more but its not there. So we say yes I can drive. Kind of catch-22. I hope I can say no while I still have enough sense.

My partner and I don't have any children so we hope we will be living in a place where car isn't needed. Not sure about hauling cat litter and groceries though...

Smilingcat

[tulip]

I already limit my driving to daytime hours because I'm blind in one eye. My depth perception is not what it should be, and so I choose not to drive at night. There's no restriction on my license. I hope to be living in a walkable city with great support and healthcare. I think that means I have to move to France, though. Could be worse;).

[bmccasland]

It's one of the things I've been mulling over, where do I want to retire? Where I currently live, I can get to a grocery store & pharmacy by bicycle buy not much else. Then there's the whole hurricane evacuation thing. I don't have kids, am currently single, so it's up to me to get my hide out of Dodge. Which leads me to thinking that maybe I want to get myself transferred one more time somewhere else - and somewhere that I won't have to pack up and evacuate at a moment's or day's notice.

So if I did move, I'd like to live somewhere that things are either within walking / biking distance or had decent public transit. I'd also like to think I'd have the good sense to take myself out of the driving pool when I'm "of a certain age." Whatever that is. Unfortunately our cities are designed around automobiles as modes of transit, that if you don't have one, you're in a world of hurt. Thanks to the powerful lobbying efforts of AARP, it's hard to take away driver's licenses from the elderly. I've seen my own Mother do some scary things, and now she only drives in areas she's familiar with, but that doesn't stop the unfamiliar from popping out in front of her. But where she lives, there's no public transit, and nothing within walking distance except more houses, "welcome to suburbia".

[NoNo]

Ugh, we're going through this now with my grandfather. My grandmother is pretty alert, but knows she's not comfortable driving at night and does what she can to avoid it. My grandfather, however, still thinks he has all his faculties about him and refuses to limit himself in any way. However, we're pretty sure he's got the beginning stages of Altzheimers or dimentia. He can't even hold a conversation without falling asleep or drifting off into his own world while he searches for words. I'm constantly finishing his sentences for him. You can tell him something a hundred times, he won't remember it, but can tell you the same story from 50 years ago every time he sees you. It's maddening, especially since he won't admit anything is wrong. Plus he's had both his knees replaced and basically shuffles around. How could can his reaction time be? There were even a few times he randomly fell this summer. This is not someone I want on the road, either for his safety, or the safety of others. My cousin said he was in the car with them when my grandfather got on the highway in the wrong direction. He also drives unreasonably slow. I was driving them back from dinner once and he yelled at me for going to fast. I pointed out I was doing the speed limit and keeping up with traffic and he said there was no need to be going that fast. If you can't drive with traffic, you're every bit as likely to cause an accident as someone who's speeding. But my mom and aunts don't want the hassle of having the talk with him. They don't want the arguments and general unpleasantness this would cause. Well sorry, but that sure beats the alternative. It's so frustrating because he won't listen to me, and my parents will tell me to mind my business. I wish there was mandatory testing, I'm certain he would fail.

[Tuckervill]

My grandmother hit and killed a highway worker when she was in her 80s. (She lived to be 100.) In her defense, there were extenuating circumstances, with him being shadowed by a big machine, not wearing an orange vest, she was driving into the sunset, etc. She did not get charged with anything. She had already just been driving to church in the next small town and nowhere else.

Sometime after that she had her cataracts repaired, but by then her judgment and memory had started to go. Instead of forcibly taking her driver's license and telling her she couldn't drive, there was just always something "wrong" with her car, and a willing grand-kid just "happening by" who might be able to take her to church. That she never suspected anything about the deception is telling about her state of mind. I think my family saved her dignity in this way. I hope my family is kind to me like that, when it's time.

Karen

[divingbiker]

I wish there was mandatory testing, I'm certain he would fail.

Don't be too sure. My 83-year-old aunt aunt took the driving test last year and failed it, and also failed the eye test. They let her go to her eye doctor to see if he would pass her, and he did, despite the fact that she has macular degeneration and can't see anything except shadows. She somehow managed to pass the driving test the second time and got her license. The threshold for passing is not high.

Luckily she has stopped driving now, but it took her about 5 years of living dangerously before she finally recognized she should get off the road.

[PscyclePath]

I went through this about this time last year with my Dad, who was afflicted with the increasing dementia that comes along with Alzheimer's. And it's not any fun at all. After an episode where he took off in his pickup truck in the middle of the night a week or so before Christmas '07, I wound up simply taking his keys and hiding the truck after I got it out of the body shop.

He didn't take it well at all, and I was not one of his favorite folks for a long while... at least until the dementia progressed enough that he couldn't remember it any more, or who I was.

Me, I hope I have enough sense remaining when I get to that point, where I can make that decision.

[derailed]

I went through this with my grandmother a few years ago.
I spoke to her local cops, and got them to watch her. When an officer saw her doing something out of the ordinary, he pulled her over and had a long conversation with her. He later told me that he explained to her how upset he would be if she got hurt, if a more aggressive younger driver frightened her off the road.

She called me up later that day and asked me to come take the car and help her move to an assisted living facility of her choice. She did not tell me why, just that she chose to stop driving, and it was "time".

I did not have to confront her, the family did not take the blame, and she was not embarrassed.
She didn't lose her marbles for a couple more years, and she never knew I had engineered the change in lifestyle for her. She seemed quite relieved not to have to be responsible for all aspects of her health and safety any longer.

Best wishes in finding a solution which fits your own specific circumstances.

Smurf: My sincere condolences to your loss and to the betrayal of your friend's wishes.

[Possegal]

My father died fairly young, 60, but for the last 6 months he was not able to walk unassisted, yet when we'd see a Dr, the first thing he always wanted to know was when would he be able to drive again. I really got an idea then about how his ability to get from point A to point B, and to take care of my mother that way, was so utterly vital to him. As a single person with no kids, I have no idea how I'll deal with not being able to be independent that way. I guess first step will be moving back home to Pittsburgh. My mother lived for 20 yrs after my Dad, and she never drove. She got herself everywhere on public transportation or her two feet. And by everywhere I mean work, the store, and bingo and the horse track. :) She had the local grocery store deliver the cat litter.

[Grog]

I am sorry for your loss, Smurf. I also know a young man (who was in my high school class) who got killed by an elderly driver while he was riding his bicycle around some Ivy League campus on the East Coast, a couple of days after starting his PhD in astrophysics. It is maddening. But there are lots of people out there driving who are not paying attention, young and old... and in between. :(

My dad and his siblings (there used to be 17 of them, now probably 13 or so) have this "deal": they have told each other that they will stop driving when they hit 70 (or is it 75?). That way, nobody has to tell anyone anything: you just stop, no matter how good a driver you think you are. Just in case. I know some of them have passed that milestone already and I don't think they are driving, but I'd need to check. I have a hard time believing my dad will stop driving, but as my mom is six years younger it's likely that he will. Also, my brother and his partner are around to help.

A century of short-sighted urban planning is leaving us with massively sprawled communities that are so entirely car-dependent that it's nearly impossible to really get around if you don't have an engine of your own. A century of medical and public health progress has given us the largest population of elderly people the world has ever seen. We're bound for a catastrophe.

Doctors (and others) are reluctant to take driving privileges away because they know that many elders' health and condition will go downhill from that day, especially because most of them don't have a tight network of people who will help them get around. What a blow to one's autonomy. A catastrophe in every way...

[ASammy1]

My grandfather turned 90 in 2008 and the DMV renewed his licence for 1 year. He is only using it for ID purposes though.

[shootingstar]

I value my independence, but not if I were putting myself and everyone around me at too much risk.

Right now, I'm on meds and haven't had any seizures since starting the meds. Although I'd love to have my independence back, the consequences of having a seizure while driving are really scary. I think that's the bottom line for me both now and when I'm older - if I can't physically and mentally handle it, I'll give it up. I don't know what I'd do if I were single now, but there are a lot of good retirement villages around here with some good transportation options.

Deb

Deborajen, I had a good friend whose father only in his late 40's, had a heart seizure while he was driving on the highway. Fortunately he pulled over the side of road...and simultaneously there was a police car nearby that noticed the erratic movement of the car. He was incredibly lucky.

You are wise to look at modifying regular transportation options. How does your current health affect cycling? Do you do any at this time? Or you now prefer to cycle with someone?

For myself, I gave up my driver's license in my early 20's. I passed the test, got my license but was never comfortable driving on high speed highways. That was a signal to myself that I shouldn't drive at all. And since then, l've only known life without me driving a car.

I will always need to live in a city with public transportation as I have for nearly my whole life which fits in well, anyway with my preferences to live long-term in city vs. rural areas.

Maybe it's just easier for us to get used to less driving on a long term basis in general and continue cycling while we're still healthy/able. Or maybe I'm just being simple minded. :o

[Aquila]

I worry about my mom driving, and in all sorts of ways, about what I'm going to do as I get older. Driving is one thing I worry about; as a single woman, in a community with lousy public transportation and low property values, how will I get around? And if I can't get around, how would I ever get out into an area with better public transportation?

My Mom, though, I worry about driving, because she just doesn't seem to pay close attention. But then I wonder if I'm just being really judgmental because we have conflicts. I can't imagine she'd respond well if I tried to tell her not to drive, so I hope when/if the time comes, my brother will be part of the conversation.

[emily_in_nc]

My grandfather, who lived to 96, asked my mom nearly every day for the last few years of his life (after my grandmother died and my mom had to move him to NC), where his car was, when he could drive again, etc. He had Alzheimer's so the driving thing became an obsession with him. It seems to be one of the last things that men in particular just can't give up on or forget about, at least when they have some dementia going on.

Myself, I hope to live in a place where I can be car-free once I get "too old" to drive, or MUCH earlier. :D Just wish there were more places that were car-free-friendly.

[shootingstar]

Well this situation is real, my partner's mother died last year at 93.

After her husband died, she lived in the same city as my partner or earlier, at least 100 kms. away from him. Or other years, she lived with her other son (who lives in the US) at different times of her life. Whenever she lived in the same city/near same city as my partner, my partner never had a car. She also never learned to drive. But she did take public transit or walked to do grocery shopping right up until she was 86 yrs. old. Store would be approx. 2 kms. away at most.

It never occurred to her to demand her son (my partner) to buy a car to transport her around. When she lived in Vancouver right up to her death, she was close enough for us to bike over or walk to her place. My partner faithfully visited his mother several times a week by getting there on bike or walking. The furthest she ever lived from us was about 5 kms. away..she lived in 3 different places over a period of 6 years, each place signifying a different level of independence/care.

When she became wheelchair bound she truly missed her walks, even during the time she was using a walker. Walking to her, was like cycling is to us. I mean it was amazing for her to do her 2 km. walk with my partner walking along side at age 91 yrs., up a 6-7% grade long hill.

She was very fortunate to have family near by in a big city ....who like her, didn't have a car at all. That includes her grand-daughter who doesn't have a car either.

And occasionally we had her take taxi during bad weather times. Averaged about 1-2 times per month.

[Geonz]

One of the reasons I don't drive much at all and sold my car is because I like being independent... without endangering others. I suspect that I'm not really much more distractible than most people but two or three times (in many thousand miles of driving) I've only avoided tragedy by dumb luck.

[shootingstar]

Some interesting but sad stories. I know a number of women who are single and now into their 40's and onward. They still don't have a car but live close to public transportation. It's not a big deal for them because they continued on with life for long enough so far.

It is an active choice to live in areas with public transportation ..or even local taxi company in operation for the occasional necessary lifts and bulky groceries.

[tulip]

There are grocery delivery companies in many cities. That would be really helpful if you lived without a car and were not able to do daily shopping on foot.

[OakLeaf]

I don't have an answer, but in thinking about it, I'm realizing that living where a car is necessary is not only poor planning for the planet, it's poor planning for our personal future. :(

I honestly don't expect my Florida home to be above water by the time I'm no longer able to drive. Even so, as a healthy middle-aged adult it would be very easy to forego a car here. But if and when my eyesight, reflexes and/or judgment no longer allow me to drive a car, I won't be able to ride a bicycle here safely either, and public transit is minimal. Where we live in Ohio it would be EXTREMELY difficult to go without a car, and it would definitely require a high level of physical and mental fitness.

So... can we take this thread in a slightly different direction? Who lives someplace, or knows of a place, with good public transit and access to a variety of physical necessities, arts, services and social activities, where someone could live without a motor vehicle, without being terribly isolated and deprived? WHERE will we go when we stop driving?

I nominate D.C. off DuPont Circle where my grandmother lived for several years. (Just a few miles from the house where she'd lived for decades.) It always seemed like a terrific place to live at any age. Where else?

[tulip]

DC, NYC, Boston area in the US (I'm an east coaster). Other cities, too, just in the right location. Downtown Asheville, Richmond (where I live) is pretty good if you are downtown or in the Fan, although there's no grocery store right downtown. Also Durham and Raleigh have great downtowns. Those are just the places I am familiar with.

I'm considering Europe as well. In general, European countries have much better health care systems than the US. Fortunately for me, I'm an EU citizen so I can just move there without visa worries. So for me, Paris, Nantes, Bordeaux...what wonderful possibilities! Even the small towns have stores downtown and many have train service to other areas.

[MomOnBike]

We had a conversation with my mid 90's Mother-In-Law recently about her driving. It was not a congenial talk. When her driver's licence was renewed about a year ago, I felt like driving the 600 miles and strangeling the examiner with my own two hands. :mad: MIL scared me white 30 years ago when she drove, and she can't have improved over the years.

Me, I'd love to give up driving at any time. I just don't care for it. Sadly, I'm not quite in a position to do so, yet.

As for WHERE one gives up driving, my thought is that one can, with careful attention to the particular block of the particular street you live on, be able to go car-free in almost any medium-to large city, and quite a few small towns. It's all about location, location, location. Of course, whether or not you can afford such a location is a concern.

[aly]

Personally, I already avoid driving and would be happy to stop completely. However, I'm facing the same issue as many others concerning my grandfather. My grandparents live about 2000 miles away. They are both 86. My grandma has many, many health problem and can barely get around now. My grandfather still shovels his own snow, mows his own yard, cares for my grandma, and drives. He has heart surgery about 30 years ago. He has bad diabetes. However, he's still pretty together for his age. This doesn't stop me from concern over his driving. He just isn't nearly as quick as he used to be, and I worry.

The problem is that they live in a small town and aren't physically able to walk everywhere. The doctors appointments are in a nearby town (and some are about 40 minutes away). The grocery is a few minutes away by car. They have hard winters, so this limits things. There really aren't available car services. All of their children are deceased, and the only other grandchildren are my brother (who lives near me and is disabled) and my cousin, who lives about 20 minutes away from them, but he's very irresponsible and can't be bothered. Most of their friend have passed and they don't really have a strong community anymore because of their inability to go out much because of my grandmother.

Driving means life to my grandfather. I know he would deteriorate quickly if he wasn't able to drive. He also refuses to leave his home to go to any type of assisted living. They have been in the same house for 60 years and after losing all 4 of their children, they want to hold onto the memories, comfort, etc.

I tried to discuss the driving issue once, but was quickly shut down by both of them. It's a tough situation. Unfortunately, I think this is a common situation for a good number of our elderly population.

[Grog]

Many, many places in Europe, of course.

In North America, it's harder:

Vancouver, B.C., would be do-able, but you'd have to choose carefully. Montreal, Quebec, is much better, in most places within city boundaries. New York City, Boston/Cambridge of course. I think Portland would be pretty good in many areas, but I have found Seattle to be very car-centered and divided by deep highways. I don't know the city all that well though. I don't know a lot about Winnipeg, Edmonton, and Calgary, but the outlook seems grim to me. Toronto? I guess.

San Francisco, maybe? But it's steep.

Following Kunstler (The Long Emergency), small, former industrial towns (New England style) are best for the long term, if one lives in the centre. However considering the standard of health care that is required to keep so many of us alive, it would make it difficult in smaller towns with no high-level medical infrastructure.

[GLC1968]

I don't have an answer, but in thinking about it, I'm realizing that living where a car is necessary is not only poor planning for the planet, it's poor planning for our personal future. :(

I honestly don't expect my Florida home to be above water by the time I'm no longer able to drive. Even so, as a healthy middle-aged adult it would be very easy to forego a car here. But if and when my eyesight, reflexes and/or judgment no longer allow me to drive a car, I won't be able to ride a bicycle here safely either, and public transit is minimal. Where we live in Ohio it would be EXTREMELY difficult to go without a car, and it would definitely require a high level of physical and mental fitness.

So... can we take this thread in a slightly different direction? Who lives someplace, or knows of a place, with good public transit and access to a variety of physical necessities, arts, services and social activities, where someone could live without a motor vehicle, without being terribly isolated and deprived? WHERE will we go when we stop driving?

I nominate D.C. off DuPont Circle where my grandmother lived for several years. (Just a few miles from the house where she'd lived for decades.) It always seemed like a terrific place to live at any age. Where else?

I nominate Portland. Even if you live in the outlying areas like Hillsboro - it is still totally possible to get where you need to go by light rail or walking (depending on where you live) and downtown Portland is only an easy 40 minute ride. Plus, TE is here...so there's that. :p

Actually, I have never really thought about my own time to give up driving. I fully assume that everyone will be car-free by then - there won't be anymore oil so the age of cheap fuel will be well over with... I do worry about my parents though. They are both fiercely independent (but still in their 60's, so there's plenty of time) and live in a place where biking or walking is taking your life into your hands once outside their neighborhood/club area. Even when I visit, I won't ride a bike there - too fricken dangerous! I hope that changes sometime in the next 20 years so that they will have options when the time comes.

[Possegal]

My mother lived in Pittsburgh and never drove. She got around just fine, as did I when I lived and worked there and owned no car. Great city with good access to transportation, if you live in the right areas of course. ;) And unlike some of the other cities (like DC), it is quite affordable. I'd love to live in DC here, rather than the MD burbs. But I can't afford it! But man, what I could afford to own back in the 'burgh!

[redrhodie]

My little city is pretty good for having everything in walking distance, but the big problem (other than there's no Indian restaurant) is that no one shovels their sidewalks. It must be really awful for the elderly and wheelchair bound to get around here in winter. Just something to consider about New England.

[denny]

Gosh, this thread has really made me start thinking about the unthinkable. I really do have to start planning more.

I just got back from Fort Myers, FL yesterday and it seems like there were so many people on bikes both old and young. Interestingly, many don't seem to be concerned with wearing helmets. I did notice there were some elderly people who were on tri-cycles complete with panniers and flags who had been shopping somewhere. I thought that it was such a neat option to continue getting around in the absence of public transport.

I think NYC is great for it's transit system, but generally unsafe and cold.
Miami sounds nice and warm,not sure about affordability. The Golden Girls sure made it look like fun though.:)

[Miranda]

My mom is turning 80 this year and I was just having this same conversation *sigh*. I certainly want her, and others to be safe, but it's sad to see the driving go.

I personally have had some medical recovery things where I could not drive by doc's orders. Omg, it was awful! That loss of independence is depressing.

But, cars can become two ton killing machines when they go bad. Glad your dad has the sense to know to withdraw. My mom does as well. Just dirves the minimum (not at night, no free ways, etc.). But, my FIL on the other hand does not. It scares me.

[shootingstar]

I feel as if I live another planet. :confused:
So many of you (but not all), would find it difficult not to drive at that more frail time in life later.

And most surprisingly just last week, my dearie said to me: "I only drive for you now". Meaning we only rent a car 1-2 times annually..so that we can zip around faster in vacation area. After all, we've been together a long time and to hear this latest pronouncement.

He's 65 and is a cyclist but does have a real lifelong sleep disorder that causes him to fall asleep at steering wheel after 1-2 hrs. of straight driving. usually after an hr. of driving he has to nap for about 15 min. while I get out walk around or sit around in the car. Not a big deal to me.

I will never be able to convince him otherwise since years ago, he had a big scare while driving. He did fall sleep for a few seconds when he was driving his son who was 10 at the time of this incident. He found himself by the side of the road ok. But couldn't remember how he got there. He was in his mid 40's at that time.

It scared him enough, that he gave up the idea of ever owning a car.

Would it help that I drove to take over from him? I suppose if I was a type A vacationing airhead and thought he was spoiling my vacation/my life. But no, I'm just a non-car hill-billy.

So the future of no driving in old age...looks similar to now..maybe I might walk slower at that frail time or take a few more taxis. :)