How do I tell a friend....

[AutumnBreez]

where to start....?
My friend is a single mom, been there done that, her daughter and dog can be a handful, ....she has a boyfriend that is living a distance from her about an hour away flight.
She asked me to do a favor for her, watch her child (4yrs)and dog (10months old) while she goes to see her boyfriend for a suprise bday for him (because he did not do this for her, wants to teach him) From Tuesday afternoon till Sunday evening. I have made it so far, here it is Sunday morn...during the week dropping the child off to school before getting myself to work, getting my own 2 boys off for school, and giving her pup a pill each morning. Not getting to ride my bike to work, and not able to go for a ride in evening all week, probably is contributing to much of my fustration, but please tell me....
Her dog wants in all the time but does not seem to be house trained fully, her last dog peed on my carpets (completely ruined one) so I have not been letting this one in if I can help it, everytime I go to keep it out from it's attempt for an energetic entry I have to hold it back from the back of neck and say NO firmly and it nervously urinates on the spot, and if it gets in, it does it when trying to get her out, feels like a lose lose. On phone,my friend says the dog doesn't do this at home, only at my place. The last dog she had, she said same thing, and to tell you the truth, I feel lied to. My dog is house trained and trained elsewhere too. She was a stray at about 1 1/2 years old when I found her, trained her fine in short period of time.
She puts her dogs nose in the urine and gives a smack on the hind legs after the accident and puts her out. I never did this with mine to train her. She slaps the child in the face/mouth if she gets sassy, and she yells alot at child when child does things that cause messes, or like. I never slapped my kids ieither, my kids even cringe when they have witnessed this action. I don't want to have conflict with friend, but how do I tell her she needs to stop these behaviors in order to have peace at home and hers and for the child's sake long term developement- ?
I also want some space for a while after this so that I don't say something I may regret. Help....????

[DeniseGoldberg]

I think that you deserve a giant award for accepting the responsibility for your friend's child (and dog!) for a not short period of time.

I highly doubt that your friend will teach her boyfriend anything by showing up for his birthday other than that she will do things for him while he doesn't do for her. And as to asking you to watch her child and dog for the better part of a week? To me it seems like she is really taking advantage of you. I understand that she doesn't want to leave her child with someone she doesn't trust, and it's much easier to board a dog (in a kennel, that is) than find someone to care for a child properly - but it seems that she is totally escaping her own responsibilites. From your description it appears that she doesn't understand how to teach her own child (and dog) acceptable behaviors.

Unfortunately I don't have anything to offer in the area of how to nicely deal with this 'friend'. I have a feeling, based on her reaction to the dog's behavior, that she really doesn't have a clue as to how to deal with her own child or dog, and that she's not likely to accept constructive criticism. I agree with you that it is needed though.

I think your idea of not seeing her for a while (after she picks up child & dog, that is) is a good one.

--- Denise

[Veronica]

I wouldn't let her have the dog or the kid back. It doesn't sound like she is raising either properly. Intimidation isn't the way to train either. And the realtionship with the boyfriend doesn't sound all that healthy.

Since keeping the kid and dog really isn't an option, is this someone you want to stay friends with? Does she have some positive qualities that you haven't told us about? Can you have a frank discussion with her? Maybe she just doesn't know how to positively discipline.

I've always thought training dogs and training kids required the same behavior from the "parents" - firm, fair and CONSISTENT. This is based on training one Rottweiler and over 500 ten year olds. The dog learned better than some kids. :p

You have been a really great friend to take both dog and child for so long.

V.

[Trek420]

You've gone above and beyond taking care of the kid and the dog.

I'm a "single parent of a dog" and my dog (pit/lab/sumthin'/sumthin'/sumthin mix) is adopted from the pound. While she was house broken from the getgo, I've done a lot of other training/socialization. Your dog guest's problems are fear based, dogs who are very frightened will urinate. Get more frightened? They could bite. This dog sees a lot of anger, dog gets hit, kid gets slapped, your friend????

Boyfriend sounds like quite the catch too....not.

I've always used positive methods only to train Mae (my dog), lots of praise, positive reinforcement, treats when she does well or when starting to do a new behavior even *close* to it.

I don't have kids (that I know) of but I suspect this works for them too ;-)

I agree with V, doesn't sound like she is raising either the kid or the dog properly, and frightened dog with frightened kid is not good, can even be dangerous. Intimidation and fear doesn't work for either. Would she be receptive to getting help? Can you keep the dog or find someone to?

[singletrackmind]

First off, I don't have any idea of what I'm talking about. I don't know you, I don't know your friend and I don't know the circumstances of your friendship. Below is from the feelings I got from your post...
_________________________________________________________________

It's very kind of you to give the little girl nearly a week of your time despite all of your other obligations. I worry about her, if her mom's willing to smack her in front of you what does she do in private??? :(

How important is this friendship to you? Is it really worth hanging on to when it seems to cause you so much stress? Is she really a friend if you'd lose her through a bit of hard honesty? Are you finding yourself feeling more doormat than door? Is there someone, maybe some sort of child abuse counselling place, that you could ask about aproaching this very sensitive subject? Someone who could help you find the words to use? Your kids' school counsellor maybe? Do you really want your kids to witness her behavior towards her kid? Do you really want to continue to witness it yourself? Can you NOT say something, even a tiny something??

Wow, I can't imagine how hard this is for you. Best of luck to you and to this woman's little girl and dog. Best of luck to your friend too, she sounds like she could use a little help in relationships with other living beings. The way she does things may be the only way she knows, maybe the way she grew up with herself? She really may not realize there is a different way of doing things.

Who ever heard of 'training' a guy through example?? And here I've been using the frying pan method! :D (ok, really, if I want my husband to do something he hasn't thought of I have to ASK him, then let him make his own choice).

[madisongrrl]

Quote:
"She puts her dogs nose in the urine and gives a smack on the hind legs after the accident and puts her out."

This would explain why her dog isn't housetrained.... Dogs who are punished in this matter only learn that their owners are dangerous...they don't learn to potty outside...

I would suggest that your friend buy a copy of The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. The beautiful thing about training dogs with positive reinforcement/operant conditioning is that you can apply it to children also...

[LBTC]

Wow! Autumn, you've got yourself a conundrum, there! Luckily, all the girls here have offered you great ideas and advise.

What I've learned over the years is - I can't change anybody else's behaviour. If I can't bear to be around their behaviour, I'm the one who has to remove myself from the situation. Of course, it is worth it to bring up the subject, to have the frank discussion, if there's a possibility that something might change from that. In my experience, though, that usually doesn't help one bit.

sorry to be so negative, but it seems to me like you've got to think in terms of self preservation. you have to take care of your needs and happiness, and that of your family above and beyond all else. I like the idea of seeking assistance from a school councillor or someone in a similar position. It would be nice if there were an outside agency that could step in, without going completely protectionist and taking the kid and dog away. Not sure if that can happen in the states or not. Or maybe, it would be a good idea if it were short term.

You've proven to be a really good friend, Autumn. Friendship goes two ways and, unless there's much more to this than we've heard, this situation is pretty one-way. Whatever you do next, try to be ready for the possibility that the friendship may never be the same (and I'd hate for it to stay the same anyway, you should not be a doormat for anyone!!), and may not survive.

Good luck and bright blessings to you!!

Namaste,
~T~

[AutumnBreez]

I feel like crying reading your responses. Thank you for caring so much! Right before she showed I came up to read what you ladies had in mind for ideas. Well, I stuck with my plan of needing space and told her that it was a long and sucky week and was exhausted. I had all the meds, clothes, all belongings ready in front room. Told her I am tired and not feeling well when she noticed I was quiet and not my talkative self. Kids have school tomorrow and I needed to get rested. She had asked if I had got to ride this week...I did say " how could I?"
(if you ladies don't know already, I live abroad currently)
I said..." My husband is out of country in ickystan place (afganistan), you are off to another country to see your man in Jordan "(a U.S.Marine) my friend is a local here- " If something were to happen to me on the road who is going to take care of my kids, and your child?" I was the only one here for them." Her daughter is just beginning to speak/learn English so had some language barriers from time to time, I don't speak any greek. Just a couple of words.
So you know, the boyfriend is not bad at all, he was one of our Marines here at this post and he is good for her, but she tends to be impatient and wants the same out of him that she would give to him, sooner then the later. She tends to be on the needy side. Wants him to show his love more, not just say it, is what I hear.

I will prepare for next visit speech, do best when I have time to think.
Again, thanks for the help, knew I could count you all for good advice

[KSH]

She puts her dogs nose in the urine and gives a smack on the hind legs after the accident and puts her out. I never did this with mine to train her.

This is an area that you can address, without completely treading on dangerous territory.

Tell her that you read somewhere that swatting a dog with a piece of paper, is 100 times better, because then the dog does not come to fear your hand, but the paper instead.

Start there. Maybe she will see how slapping her kid is like slapping the dog... and stop it all together?


Something I have learned in life... if you have a *friend* who's behavior you simply cannot tolerate... or you don't understand how they manage their life... then it's best to cut ties with that friend.

[Veronica]

And you can tell it her that it doesn't do any good to punish the dog, unless caught in the act.

V.

[Trek420]

exactly!

Dogs have the short term memory of...of...what was that again?

If you catch the dog in the act of whatever it is you don't want it to do and punish it they make the connection. By punish all that's needed is a sharp "no!" or even "unh uh" nothing further. Dogs undertand tone, inflection, never hit a dog, not with your hand, not with anything.

But punish them later on, Half hour, 5 minutes, even 10 seconds later your dog is not thinking "oh, must be for what I did then" your dog just fears YOU.

Imagine you're at work and randomly for no apparent reason your boss comes in slaps you upside the head and suspends you. Never says why, never says what you did wrong, just hits and suspends you. You wouldn't know what to do.

I've heard it said about kids "catch them in the act of being good", with my dog I decide what behaviors I want her to do, sometimes have to break it down into steps; sit, that becomes sit then lie down, becomes sit-down-roll over.

I find positive methods work best, don't we all feel good and work much harder when we are praised? Sure it takes patience and consistency. (you mentioned this gal is not patient?) But training a dog should be fun on both ends of the leash. Are there any free courses at local schools or a club.

[madisongrrl]

Tell her that you read somewhere that swatting a dog with a piece of paper, is 100 times better, because then the dog does not come to fear your hand, but the paper instead.


Ummm....Dogs don't necessarily discriminate between getting hit with a paper or a human hand. Dogs are fight/flight animals who view the would as safe or dangerous. If the human hits/hurts the dog in anyway, then the human will be viewed as an unsafe entity.

Dogs who are punished during potty training
1. Don't ask their humans to "go outside" - humans are unsafe
2. learn to urinate in the absence of their owner - because punishment doesn't teach a dog to potty outside.
3. When human comes home, dog "looks guilty" so human punishes...in fact dogs are not "guilty" (dogs aren't cognitively capabile of having morals - they simply do what works)....dogs have learned that urine + arrival of human = punishment/harsh tones. The dog will act submissively (a gesture that is meant to "reduce aggression") because the human unknowingly conditioned this response.

Potty training is accomplished through management and reinforcement - period. There is so much current literature on this topic that it is ridiculous in this day and age people are still punishing their dogs during potty training. The simple fact is that this lady is punishing her dog and the dog is still "going" inside the house - so what that should tell her is that her approach isn't working......

The most benevolent way to approach people like this is to ask "How is that working for you?" - because usually its not working so great....then you can tell them how you would approach this problem and give the reasoning behind your suggestions....

2 cents from a canine behaviorist-in-training

[snapdragen]

Autumn, there is an excellent book by Carol Lea Benjamin - Mother Knows Best-The Natural Way to Train your Dog. Maybe you could find it and make it a gift for your friend.

[AutumnBreez]

So happy to get a ride in today!!!
Riding helps clear my head.
I also find creative thoughts.

[Pedal Wench]

Aren't we the funniest group - we all focused on her abhorent treatment of the dog, not on the fact that she slaps her child!

You might be able to bring up the subject of that by turning it around to yourself and your children. "Hey, girlfriend, I would rather that my children don't see you slapping your daughter, so if you must do it, please do not do it in their, or my, presence - it bothers me too..." She might get the idea that it's just not an acceptable behavior, in public or private.

[AutumnBreez]

Aren't we the funniest group - we all focused on her abhorent treatment of the dog, not on the fact that she slaps her child!

You might be able to bring up the subject of that by turning it around to yourself and your children. "Hey, girlfriend, I would rather that my children don't see you slapping your daughter, so if you must do it, please do not do it in their, or my, presence - it bothers me too..." She might get the idea that it's just not an acceptable behavior, in public or private.

Good point...and point taken and will use the next time she starts to raise her hand at her or the animal, even if it is just to raise hand as to hit (threaten) sometimes it is just a threat, and more are the real deal.
Thank you...

[singletrackmind]

Animal abuse: where child abuse often begins....also you can't ignore the mother's upbringing-the way she deals with other living beings may be the only way she's ever known... :(

Hitting a child (in our culture) caries more of a stigma so I could see how pointing it out may help reduce it-in public at least- vs mentioning the animal's plight...re-education may be the only way to end or at least reduce it.

Mother Knows Best is an EXCELLENT suggestion, Snapdragen. Very easy to read and understand, a wonderful book. :)

[snapdragen]

There is one line in Mother Knows Best that has stuck with me (I'm paraphrasing) "Remember, your puppy is being the best puppy he/she knows how to be"

[Irulan]

find out if the local adult education offers parenting classes and get a brochure.Many times the base will offer stress and parenting classes for military families.

As much as it hurts tho, you may have to choose keeping a friend and myob or risk loosing a freind over this.

~irulan

[fixedgeargirl]

My favorite parenting resource is motherindotcom discussions. On the Gentle Discipline thread you can find lots of people agoninzing over this same thing (my friend hits her kids, what can I say?). It's terrible that this little girl is going through this. Hitting teaches fear and distrust of the one person in the world who is supposed to unconditionally protect this child. If you can be the one to broach this subject with her you will be doing this little girl a favor that will last her a lifetime.

[AutumnBreez]

My favorite parenting resource is motherindotcom discussions. On the Gentle Discipline thread you can find lots of people agoninzing over this same thing (my friend hits her kids, what can I say?). It's terrible that this little girl is going through this. Hitting teaches fear and distrust of the one person in the world who is supposed to unconditionally protect this child. If you can be the one to broach this subject with her you will be doing this little girl a favor that will last her a lifetime.

oh oh....this is a good thing.... I have a good idea for this.....
I am going to post some things on the fridge (seen on this mothering site), and give her a copy of the same and tell her, I found this and was excited because I have been searching for more and better ways to improve relationship with my boys, and thought she may like it too. Always room for improvements and adjustments ;)
Here is the one that gave me idea to print for her :
http://www.mothering.com/community_tools/toolbox/growing_child/punishment.html

[doc]

Wow. What a story. First of all, people usually do train/treat their pets the way they treat their children. She is unacceptable on both counts. In my opinion, it is NOT ok to say nothing. That is how children/women die of abuse. "It's not my problem" is the easiest approach. But as caring compassionate people who want the best for our children/world/earth we need to speak up about behaviors that are unacceptable.

That being said, the how is always the hardest. There are lots of possible approaches. You need to pick one that you're comfortable with. You can even start with "Hey, I've owned tons of dogs and am great at training. Let me show you how" Then, while training explain how hitting is destructive. Then you can gently mention how kids and pets learn the same way. Depending on your friendship and her motivations, she could really learn new parenting techniques from you.
You can enlist the help of clergy or school counselors as singletrack suggested. In the USA you can make an anonymous (but specific) tip to the child abuse hotline in your area. You can simply point out that the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends avoiding corporal punishment. And so on and so on.
Protect yourself emotionally. If she is just frazzled she may be thrilled with your help. If she is just uneducated, again she will be thrilled to learn something new and better. If she is just mean, you and the authorities need to know it.
Good Luck!!

[singletrackmind]

I LOVE the fridge posting and "sharing" idea! Sort of a 'hey, I'm interested in this and it's so cool I'd love to share it with you to try out too' thing.

Hope it works! :)

[Irulan]

I don't want to have conflict with friend, but how do I tell her she needs to stop these behaviors in order to have peace at home and hers and for the child's sake long term developement- ?

my two cents, in depth.
Most people don't want advice on how they are raising their kids, or dogs, and will most likely resent any advice or suggestions as an intrusion, invasion or worse. Unless she's truly asking for help, and truly willing to try or do something new, I suggest that you MYOB, no matter how much it hurts.

While you can set boundaries about certain things that might be accepted, (not sitting the dog) other boundaries might not be taken so well ( It makes me uncomfortable to watch you smack your kid)

You can certainly tell her to board the dog, and you can treat the child with dignity and kindness while the kid is at your house. That is the most you can do, IMO. If you feel it's child abuse, and not just obnoxious parenting, there are steps that can be taken.

I have friends that are frustrated parents, and are having troubles with their kid and their methods, but they just want to ***** about it, not really do anything different. I've also sacrificed friendships because I could not stand to be around how someone parented their kid.

two cents, as usual.

Irulan

[LBTC]

as usual, Irulan is right on the mark, IMO.

If it truly is abuse, get the authorities involved. If it's simply objectionable and poor, the liklihood of your advice being welcome is very low. Either way, there's a good chance the relationship could be ended....so be prepared for that, if you can!

Good luck!

Remember, it's her karma. Not yours.

Live mindfully and peacefully, the light is within you.

Namaste,
~T~

[AutumnBreez]

as usual, Irulan is right on the mark, IMO.

If it truly is abuse, get the authorities involved. If it's simply objectionable and poor, the liklihood of your advice being welcome is very low. Either way, there's a good chance the relationship could be ended....so be prepared for that, if you can!

Good luck!

Remember, it's her karma. Not yours.

Live mindfully and peacefully, the light is within you.

Namaste,
~T~


I do think it is frustration and ill parenting (obnoxious parenting-as Irulan put it- good choice of wording-or reckless) not abuse.
I also believe that my best option here is to try to silently present it to this young overly frustrated mother that there are some other methods to try (that may help reduce the behaviors that they both display), and continue my silent behavior modification during their visits to my house. The child responded well while her mom was away, mom even noticed something different about her daughter in past two days that she likes, she mentioned to me. :D Think that something may be done without appearing to be intrussive. If it does not work, then I will decide if I want to further the friendship, but I will know I did my best.

[doc]

Hmmm. I almost always agree with Irulan. But here I must strongly disagree. It has been in the news lately that the Vatican made a promise to the Nazi's that it would "MYOB" and not get involved in "politics".
Of course that wasn't politics, it was massive genocide 6,000,000 jews and 6,000,000 other "undersireables" were murdered. And the catholic church required all of its priests to MYOB.

That just isn't what life is about. Yes this woman may find your attempts at helping her intrusive. Or she may be thankful. But you are NOT reaching out because you are worried about the mom. You are helping the child.

I was just "minding my own business" is the absolute worst excuse for not helping another human being. Would you MYOB if you saw a cyclist fall who might be hurt? Well you KNOW this little girl is hurt. You don't know how much she is hurt physically, but you have definitely seen the psychological injuries that she and her dog express. You don't have to do everything everyone suggested, you just need to pick what you consider an appropriate type of door opening behavior/talk with the mom or other support people.

Autumn, I believe your reaching out is great. Especially since you managed to do it in a way that the mom is receptive. Kudos to you.

[Irulan]

MYOB - my perspective comes this -

accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Most people spend a lot of time and energy worry about how to change other's behavior, when that is the one thing that is usually out of our control and that we cannot make a difference in. It's much more effective to focus on our own part of things, and not beat our head against a wall trying to get someone else to do what we think they should be doing.

likening this to supporting the Nazis is kind of a stretch here, don't you think?

~I