OT - Politics, Religion... the taboos

[spazzdog]

I know this is WAY off topic of cycling... and I don't open this discussion to offend. We played a bit with the politics of the current war (Irac) in another thread.

I broach this topic because I so respect the views of all of you.

I've just watched the Showtime special "Our Fathers" about the Catholic pedophilia scandal. Let me preface with I am not Catholic. My partner is. I live in the Boston area.

I am gay.

The sociatal backlash has been on homosexuality in the priesthood. My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

As a "homosexual", I would never, have never wanted, needed, lusted after a child, nor has anyone I know in the gay community, male or female.

Y'all kinda know me. I don't start these "serious" topics on a whim.

What are your views? There are lots of moms here... I assume a certain percentage of Catholics... not that I believe pedophilia is restricted to the Catholic religion.

Victims, friends of victims, how far do the circles of this particular pebble flow?

spazz

[Justina]

Hey umm ... I'm not catholic either, in fact I'm not anything but a heterosexual? woman with a fairly strong sex drive. My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them???? It would be interesting to know "if " were the preists allowed openly to express their normal sexuality would the rate of child molestation go down? They are human beings with all the same weakness after all . There will always be perverts where ever there are kids. ( sad but true )I am fairly sure that if you locked me up in a female prison for the rest of my life or for that matter a good long while ( whatever that is LOL ) I would probably get real interested in the ladies. like I said I have a fairly strong sex drive ( like most men Hmmmm? ) Masurbation is fun but does lack a critical element of human contact.....P.S call me liberal " GASP! but I don't have a problem with homosexuality in fact I think It might just be a normal expression of one persons love and attraction to another.Pedophilia on the other hand is not cosentual sex, it is molestation and rape (big diffrence.)

[RoadRaven]

Mum here - age range currently 7yrs - 17 yrs

There is no way I have ever associated homosexuality and paedophilia as intrinsically linked

My teenagers have brought home gay teenage friends of both genders and at no time have I considered my younger children as being in any "danger" despite numerous rough-housing games

Most of my kids have also had a gay teacher at some time or other (and that is just the teachers I have known about) and at no time have I been concerned or "afraid" for their safety... in fact, one of the teachers was the most creative and in tune with kids that they have ever had!

People who get the two "issues" or "ways of being" confused are archaic dinosaurs who cannot admit to themselves that there are many ways of being human, and the safety of our children comes down to morals and mental health and any link to gender preference is purely coincidental.

Spazz, I know you can't 'catch' gayness, can't 'make' or 'turn' someone gay...
THEY (who make such ill-informed, judegmental and innaccurate statements) are dinosaurs, are blind, are crazy, and should shut their mouths REAL tight.

I don't trust any religion that disempowers a minority, and the history of Catholisicism is not a healthy one regarding women or the 'uneducated'. I believe the fault lies with the fear of sexuality within the hierarchy of the church. Gayness or non-gayness is completely irrelevant to the issue of someone being a paedophile.

[Irulan]

The father of my son's best friend went and laid himself in front of a train the day the local preist molestation scandal broke in the newspaper. He was a victim as were many men in his circle. His wife is a very brave woman: she has been very forthcoming and public about her husbands abuse and the lack of accountability by the church. She was on Macniel/Lehrer a few months ago, anyone catch it? ( one of those PBS news shows) She is one of the main plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the diocese, which of course has declared bankrupcy.

Me - angry about the continutal assosciation between pedophiles and gayness which is just wrong. Spokane is the home of the local mayorial scandal which doesn't help. It is good to see that people are seperating the sexualtiy from the abuse of power issues. While I am not gay, having being raised by two closeed until I was almost an adult gay people gives me a comfrotableness with it that I think some people lack. There were problems in my home but it was due to bad behavior and not inherent sexuality of my parnets.

more later, have to go rafting.

a good book on abuse of power in the church is called The God Game.

[Trek420]

I didn't see or TIVO the film. Struck a nerve, Sapzz?

$0.50 tour of me, Gay and out forever - over 30 years, no kids that I know of, 2 neices and 1 nephew all grown, Jewish but not observant and some of my best friends and all of my ex'es are Catholic. Hmmmm.

I am sick of generalizations like blaming societies ills on "drug addicts, accordion players, and homosexuals..." but I think that most people "get it" today that child molesters and LGBT people are totally different.

In todays political environment there are those who use fear based arguments "the gays and lesbians are coming, lock up the women and children, protect your marriage!" and I'm just not gonna go there about that.

Just speaking personaly gimme a break. I like kids and kids like me but I simply can't imagine any sexual interest in a child and more important I think there is a special place in hell for anyone who'd hurt a child.

Don't get me started...I think I'd better go for a bike ride now.

[spazzdog]

Thanks for all the input.

I know films are films, i.e. stuff gets "dramatized" or "sensationalized", but this film did strike a chord. Living here outside Boston I was inundated with the news accounts and then watching this film... it's all so sad.

I didn't reference my own sexual orientation for any reason other than to point out that, for me, hearing the uneducated or ill informed blame the abuse on "gay" priests made me nuts. These men weren't gay - they were/are predators. They could've had relations with persons their own age had they so chosen.

The Vatican could've handled the entire thing differently...

And of course, in my ideal little world, there is no war or hunger :rolleyes:

Let's use this thread for those taboo subjects one doesn't discuss over dinner... I am interested in and value your input. And thanks to Admin for allowing this thread to keep flying.

spazz

[singletrackmind]

Me? I don't believe in any god. I'm 37 and stay at home with my 2 year old boy and 9 and 12 year old step-daughters. I'm an artistic, straight, introverted, boring mid-american woman and I miss mom's homemade macaroni and cheese and buttermilk pancakes which I make but never turn out as good.

Gay and straight seem the exact same to me, just the preference in opposite vs. same sex is the difference. If I am incorrect in this someone please tell me and give me reasons, thoughts and ideas as to why so I can ponder. I would never think of one or the other to be more likely to be pedophiliacs individually. As a whole, it seems there would be more straight pedophiles based sheerly on number.

I sure wish people would worry about more important things than which consenting adult enjoys the companionship of which other consenting adult.

I cannot believe priests could find any right in using any child in a sexual manner. They certainly have the opportunity put before them as authoritarian figures to these boys but how can they commit such heinous acts?? I can see how a boy would feel they had to go along with what these people who they've been taught to revere wish of them-but how can a priest abuse his power in this manner above all??? I was about to ask if they really believe they are not committing a gay act because of the age of their same-sex partners but I don't want any of you to think I think pedophilia is a gay act because IT IS NOT!! Yes, some changes do need to be made in the chuch so that priests can find their adult pleasures-with ADULTS!! That or castrate them, though my humpy little boy dog doesn't seem to notice a lack of testicles in the slightest so I don't know if this works or not.

My step-daughter's 3rd grade teacher is gay and the best teacher she's had thus far. He's gifted with his kids and has been recognized by the state for his good work. I would be honored to have him teach my son as well-he's quite good at it. His ability has nothing to do with his orientation as is true of people straight and gay world over.

[roughingit]

I'm also a straight athiest, but I frequent a homesteading forum with many *very* religious folk on it. Some of these people also seem to share the archiac view of that video. Then again, it may just seem that way because they spend so much time preaching about how being gay in a SIN (their caps lol). Man, I gotta feel for the gay and bi people on that board with such narrow-mindedness afoot there!

I don't think the priests are using these children because they are gay, I think it is just a power trip, same as rape with adults. They use children because they don't struggle and are easier to brainwash.

[LBTC]

I was raised catholic. I'll be recovering for the rest of my life! heh

Some of the priests were stern, some caring, some scary, some creepy, some seemed invicible....I can see how a kid from yesteryear could be awed enough by the priest and all he symbolized to actually feel special because of the priests sickening advances....but that's how these things work. they are complicated, disgusting, horrific acts.

The thought that a homosexual man is more likely to be a pedofile is beyond any logic that a sane human being could use.

The catholic rule of celibacy is matched in some other religions as well, Even a yogi can choose to become celibate in order to harness the energy of his or her sexuality into transcendant inner peace. However, in catholicisim it has always appeared to be (I haven't been through the training, so this is an assumption) simply a matter of denial. An unenlightened sacrifice does not necessarily make a soul more perfect....if the person has no way to deal with the denial, no outlet of any kind, the mind can twist it into something very sick. DH just had a great idea....they could take all these celibate priests, and make a super fast catholic cycling team! All that pent up sexual energy would make them smoking fast!! :p

It's a sick world we live in. some of the creatures in it are sicker than others. In an ideal world, the organizations we are part of would provide us all with the necessary guidance to be perfect human beings in whatever circumstances we find ourselves.

Darnit, though, they don't!!

Peace and love to all of you,
Namaste,
~T~

[Irulan]

OK, spent a day paddle rafting and I'm back.... hacked that other post out way to early in the am yesterday.

I think that some church's unwillingness to allow non-celibate behaviors, or to not allow women to participate comes goes very far back to the origins of some religions. The point was made about celibacy of a way concentraing spritual power,which is a universal practice. However in this day and age I think that is misplaced for some religions. The history of the priesthood needs to be looked at in a historical context too : both in the how the priest hood was used to replace other, older religious forms, and how it was taught that it is only through a priest that you can have access to God. Talk about a set up for power abuse!!!
The church's documented attempts at covering up preist abuse is evil of the highest kind IMO.

[susan.wells]

My issue is pedophilia and homosexuality are two very distinct issues. A homosexual is not a pedophile. A pedophile is not a homosexual. Statisticly most pedophiles are straight men.

This issue really touches home. My oldest son is homosexual and I absolutely detest when people somehow connect homosexuality with pedophilia. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

[RoadRaven]

I was raised catholic. I'll be recovering for the rest of my life! heh
~T~

LOL, this reminded me of a Billy Connelly show, he said " I went to a Catholic School - I majored in guilt"

Seriously though. Its not just priests who are guilty of this - It happens with people in a position of power... school teachers, cub scout leaders, doctorsetc... They may or may not be gay, but they do have issues with power and they do prey on the vulnerable.

Sometimes the vulnerable are young children, sometimes they are teenagers, sometimes they are the elderly and sometimes they are women.

Too often, rape or other sexual abuse is about power and control, not about sex... and like we all agree, sexual preference or tendancies has little to do with breaking moral, ethical or legal laws.

I am a survivor of rape (note - survivor, not victim) and if anyone did something remotely similar to one of my children, I am sure my response would be extreme, even if I had to bide my time.

[Trek420]

RoadRaven "Its not just priests who are guilty of this - It happens with people in a position of power... school teachers, cub scout leaders, doctorsetc... They may or may not be gay, but they do have issues with power and they do prey on the vulnerable."

yep yep, in the martial art I do, the first teacher I had and I trained with him from about 1979-83. I got too busy with college and stopped training for a couple years then came back to training, and he was gone, his assistant instructors headed the school.

Wha' happened?

It had been found due to some brave kids coming forward that he'd been abusing kids in the kids classes (just the girls). this was found out to be true and he was confronted and in an unprecedented move the head of our style stripped him of rank and forbade him to even train! I'm sure it was heart-wrenching for Saito Sensei because this guy was the favorite student.

But it had to be done and in the end he did the right thing.

Occaisionaly we hear rumor that he's somewhere leading a class or trying to train. But always seems like rumor. Recently he did show up at a dojo (school) in CA and was quickly recognised "oh, you. We've heard about you" and was quickly and simply presented with a letter, aparently there is a formal letter that he can not train anywhere ever again.

In a way I feel sorry for the guy, such a waste of talent. He was my teacher after all. Supremely talented, gifted but at minimum he's deeply flawed and possibly downright evil. I'm sure he knows that if not for that he'd be a master instructor by this time. Oh well.

[Irulan]

In a way I feel sorry for the guy, such a waste of talent. He was my teacher after all. Supremely talented, gifted but at minimum he's deeply flawed and possibly downright evil. I'm sure he knows that if not for that he'd be a master instructor by this time. Oh well.

I would never, ever feel sorry for someone who makes a choice to use their power/position inappropriately no matter how much supposed "talent" is being thrown away. How many abusers have had people make concessions because they were only caught once, they were an asset to the business or community in other ways, or they had a lapse in judgement or any of 10000 other excuses that charismatic abusers get away with. He made the decision to do the things he did, no one forced him or coerced him, unlike his victims.

Irulan

[Trek420]

poor choice of words on my part...First of all I've never understood why no legal action was not taken at the time, why he's not in jail .... or worse. As far as I know nobody sued, prosecuted...

I wasn't around the school when the "fit hit the shan" but I don't think there is a statute of limitations on this heinious (sp?) crime and even if there is it would not have been passed then.

The fact that it's around a martial art is most deeply deeply disturbing to me. that's the whole thing with power and the implication to a kid ... I'm surprised the guy is still on the planet.

and no I don't think pedophiles could ever ever change, rehabilitate whatever you want to call it, some people just take up space and oxygen on the planet that could better be used by others or ferns or whatever.

[slinkedog]

Okay, I'm chiming in, now. I grew up Catholic, but converted to Protestantism a long time ago. I am one who does not view pedophiles as homosexuals and vice versa.

I have to say that I do feel somewhat sorry for those who perpetrate crimes. We are all operating from some level of damage. Some of us are more damaged than others. Some of the severely damaged can go on to lead very healthy lives. Some cannot. I don't know if that is a matter of choice or a matter of frailty, but I don't think it's up to me to decide that. All who have been hurt have my compassion. Yes, I feel angry when I hear about someone being subjected to violence or abuse. It turns my gut. I do believe there is evil in the world, but I believe it's kind of a trickle-down effect, if that makes any sense at all.

This is not to say that I don't think people should be held responsible for their actions. We most certainly should be. However, I still feel badly for everyone involved. And I am thankful for the grace that has been bestown upon me by others all my life. I've needed all of it that I've gotten and then some!!

[Veronica]

And I am thankful for the grace that has been bestown upon me by others all my life.

I like that. It just struck a chord for some reason. Me - I thank god - or whoever is in charge - that I have it so good. I don't know how I got to this place, or if I deserve it, but I'm awfully thankful to be here.

V.

[slinkedog]

I like that. It just struck a chord for some reason. Me - I thank god - or whoever is in charge - that I have it so good. I don't know how I got to this place, or if I deserve it, but I'm awfully thankful to be here.

V.

Well said, V.

[spazzdog]

I hear you... I thank the gods that I am only a little crazy when I see what all the other crazies are doing.

As to molestation/rape not being about sex, I agree. It's all about power, control, intimidation.

I'm kind of "show no mercy" on the punishment of these folks though. That goes for priests, doctors lawyers, indian chiefs or Cardinals of the church. Either shoot 'em or throw them into gen pop in a prison sooner than later. Child molesters last about 2 wks in prison, if they're lucky.

spazz

[Trek420]

well said both V and Slink. Both posts remind me of a Carribean family saying from a friend of mine, goes a little something like this "don't envy other peoples burdens because what they carry lightly might break your back".

You never know what others have gone through, though their lives may look charmed or very lucky.

[doc]

Homosexual does not equal pedophile. One is an expression of love/desire between two adults, the other is the crime of rape. And pedophilia happens to boys and girls. Almost always by men. So instead of homosexual = pedophile maybe we should say male = pedophile. Well that sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Because it is!!!

I am straight, and -shhhh don't tell - liberal. Yet I find myself suddenly in the South. Talk about a fish out of water. When I read the newspaper I am frightened every day. The politicians here not only say outrageous religious right ****, but they are proud to say it and face NO Backlash. From anyone!

They regularly say stuff like, "Well they may think homosexuality is ok in NY, but down here we think it's a sin". "And so is nudity". These are real quotes. This whole country voted for the religious right agenda and that scares me too.

Question, how could gay marriage, in any way shape or form, ruin the sanctity of my straight marriage? These people are paranoid, probably closeted homosexuals, and persecuting others in the name of god. That karma is hopefully going to come around and bite them in the ***.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. That and $3.00 will get you something at starbucks.

[MightyMitre]

Here in the UK a woman doctor who worked and lived in a very poor, deprived area had slogans written all over her front door by a raging mob. They thought she was a paedophile. Actually she was a paediatrician.

Education, education, education - that's what's needed.

[Trek420]

doc "Question, how could gay marriage, in any way shape or form, ruin the sanctity of my straight marriage?"

Sanctity? 50% of marriages end in divorce, domestic violence from and to either gender-that ruins the sanctity of marriage, child abuse, reality tv like The Bachelor and Who Wants to Marry a Milionaire? Oh yeah, it's sacred all right.

And stand back, huge generalization here and I'm kidding, and you know my sense of humor by now. I think the gay community should simply bow out of the institution of marriage till we can participate.

We can't do this, ok fine, not helping you either.

A few months of cakes from Walmart, hair from Billy-Bob's house of big hair, dresses from Target, plastic flowers from Longs, catering from ... not that we have an exclusive on these things ;-)

[slinkedog]

Okay, I'll stick my nose in here one more time. I am a Christian and I will tell you there's little that bothers me more than when someone who claims to be a disciple of Jesus Christ uses their belief in him as a reason to be hateful toward others.

The other thing that bothers me a lot is when people demean those who don't agree with them, whether it be in terms of ideology, faith, or lifestyle. I see it on both sides of the coin, conservative and liberal, and it is quite troubling to me. People are different from each other. They have differing beliefs and ways of living their lives. They may be educated or illiterate. They may be wealthy or poor, young or old, gay or straight. When did it become okay to dehumanize people because of where they're at? We're all on our journeys. Can't we love someone even if we don't agree with everything they believe or do?

Okay, there's my 2 cents.

[tatormc]

Slinke, you said exactly what I was thinking but just couldn't figure out how to put it into words. I'm also a Christian and there are lots of things in the world today that I believe are wrong, but I also believe that judging others is wrong. Just because I don't agree with a persons lifestyle doesn't mean I have to discriminate them. I have to love them as Jesus would.

[Trek420]

tatormc & Slinke, you both took the words from my mouth. I'm just a lil' Jewish gal from Petaluma and I don't know anything about religion but my impression from my little knowlege of Christianity that's kinda the whole point.

I can't quote scripture and won't try to but I got the impression "judge not lest ye be...." "let he who is without..." "love the sinner hate the shoes" oops, wrong book on that last one etc.

Fact is most of the worlds great religions have that in common, the Golden Rule.

I kinda like that about your religion! And it seems to me that folks who get that are MORE Christian not less. You want fire and brimstone and eternal pillar of salt that's my folks department.

Well, nuff said, I've gotta find a taxi to Day 1 for a group of riders. I expect when I get back TE will have this whole issue solved along with world peace and global warming.

I've been given some hammer gel, never tried it. I'm told not to change diet or anything before a long ride. Oops, this is the OT thread so can't talk about cycling here like what people think of hammer gel. That would be OT OT. :cool: :rolleyes: ;)

[CycleGiant3]

I was raised Catholic...majored in guilt! ;) (heard that somewhere thought it was cute) Anyway, I have been hesistent to post my opinion, and that is what it is-- my opinion. I say this because sometimes i go off on little tangents. I do agree with all of you, homosexuals DO NOT in anyway equal pediophiles! I do believe that most all religions (or at least the people practicing them)are judgemental and hypocritical. I think that people pick and choose the pieces of the bible they can use to justify their hate. (not everyone does this, try not to misunderstand my soap box) First, if homosexuality is a sin as some translations in Leviticus claim, then lets refer to some other passages in Leviticus..."you shall not eat pork or shellfish" "women shall not shave thier legs and men their beards" "you can not cut your hair", and the list goes on (You should be stoned to death for most of these infractions). I am not claiming to be a expert on the Bible, religion, or Leviticus, in fact I try to stay as far away from the "saved" as possible. I just bring this up to show how people pick and choose the pieces of the bible they want to in order to justify their hate. So ultimately, we would all be sinners if people weren't pulling what they didnt "agree" with out of the bible and using it aganist everyone else.
"Just because I don't agree with a persons lifestyle doesn't mean I have to discriminate them. I have to love them as Jesus would." This is a quote from the forum that struck a nerve. Homosexuals are not asking anyone to agree with "thier lifestyle." In fact, science has proven it is not a choice. Just like science proved that the sun did not revolve around the earth, but the earth around the sun. Gailieo was almost beheaded for saying that, but got life in prison instead. So off with my head, until I am pardoned. But the bible said it, so it must be true! (sarcasm :rolleyes: )
My bottom line is: The God I known is a kind God. He doesn't care what color we are, what size we are, or where we live, who we live with or who we love. I know that the bible was written a VERY LONG time ago, and I think that if they knew all the advancements science has shown parts of the bible to be incorrect, they might have put in foot notes..."oh yeah...it is ok to change with the times." Because loving and treating people, all people, like you would treat yourself was probably the main message they were trying to get across. "Love one another."

[slinkedog]

I do believe that most all religions are judgemental and hypocritical. I think that people pick and choose the pieces of the bible they can use to hate. (not everyone, try not to misunderstand my soap box) First, if homosexuality is a sin, then lets refer to Leviticus..."you shall not eat pork or shellfish" "women shall not shave thier legs and men their beards" "you can not cut your hair", and the list goes on. I am not claiming to be a expert on the Bible, religion, or Leviticus, in fact I try to stay as far away from the "saved" as possible. It just proves my point about picking and choosing the pieces of the bible they decide to hate.

Just like science proved that the sun did not revolve around the earth, but the earth around the sun. Gailieo was almost beheaded for saying that, but got life in prison instead. So off with my head, until I am pardoned. But the bible said it, so it must be true! (sarcasm :rolleyes: )

CycleGiant... let me begin here by saying that I totally believe you are entitled to your opinion, and that's what makes America a good place to be, geographically and politically speaking.

However, I have to take exception with what I feel is a gross misrepresentation of Mosaic law, how it pertains to us after the coming of the Christ, and how the different books of the bible hang together. My thoughts on the subject are going off in 12 different directions so let's just suffice it to say that it seems to me that a lot of people judge the bible by the people who claim it as the basis for their belief system, which is a totally reasonable action, imo. I just wish people didn't screw things up so badly, me included. ;)

I wholeheartedly agree with you that God loves each and every one of His children and that we are to treat one another accordingly.

[CycleGiant3]

[QUOTE=slinkedog]I will tell you there's little that bothers me more than when someone who claims to be a disciple of Jesus Christ uses their belief in him as a reason to be hateful toward others.

QUOTE]

Slinke-
This is basically what I meant as well. Additionally, it upsets me when I feel that people use the Bible to justify their hate. You just said it a little better.

[spazzdog]

Preface - I don't care what religion one chooses, be you born into or born again, converted or no religion at all. As long as the interpretation of "God's Word" hasn't been twisted, turned and baked into a crazy cookie, I have no issue.

However, the group from somewhere in ho-dunk America that is traveling around the states protesting this that and the other thing is making me a little tense. Yes, they're geting their bowels in an uproar over gays... but you know what? That's not what bothers me.

What bothers me is the places they are choosing to vomit their bile. First an elementary school because an 8 yr old wrote a paper about Ellen Degenerous (I don't think the paper even mentioned she was gay).

Today or tomorrow these wack jobs will be at the funeral of a fallen soldier (hold on to your keyboards) because they believe 9/11 was gods punishment for Americas support of gays, thus the soldiers are dying to support the "homosexual lifestyle".

Like I said, it's not the gay thing... god knows I've heard worse in my lifetime. What's scary is if you take out the word homosexual and plug in anything else (black, latin, female, jew) you have the makings of some of the worst periods in history... all started by little fanatic cells of people, that grew and grew and grew.

I understand and support freedom of speech and freedom of religion, but there has got to be a way to prevent "inappropriate" locations. I mean, a funeral service is no place for a bunch of yelling, screaming protestors - whatever their platform.

spazz - going for coffee :eek:

[Trek420]

spazzdog "there has got to be a way to prevent "inappropriate" locations. I mean, a funeral service is no place for a bunch of yelling, screaming protestors - whatever their platform."

Since eating shellfish is also an "abomination" they chould picket, yell and scream in front of Red Lobster when it's 30 shrimp for 10 bucks night, or at Arts Crab Shack.

Heading out the door for work so I don't have time to mull over my thoughts but I'm against the war, against all wars or think war should be the very very last resort but I sooooooooo support our troups.

And to add this to the grief of the families is so wrong.

Trek those who forget the past are bound to repeat it 420

[trayc]

I haven't read all of the other posts yet so this comment might have already been made. As I am not catholic I don't know this information but isn't it true that boys make up most of the altar boys or other areas in church? If so, then that is the only reason that the priests abused boys. Pedophilia is a crime of opportunity and manipulation so it stands to reason that it was boys not girls abused because the priests had more of an opportunity with boys and not girls. It doesn't make the preists gay because they chose boys to prey on, they just had more of an opportunity to prey on these boys.

[Donna E Mobile]

[QUOTE=Justina] My theory on the catholic pedophiles is that since their religious doctrine denies them an outlet for their normal human sexuality that they kinda just snap and um... Well... kids are available, easy to intimidate or how ever they manipulate them????

I think some become priests hoping to be cured, others because the children they want will be available, others, as you describe, give in to temptation while living a life that is unnatural for them. I doubt there is a single, predominate reason why priests do this stuff

In my little value system:
Pedophilia is an abomination.
Covering up the crimes of others makes one an accessory.
Being gay has nothing to do with pedohilia or protecting pedohiles.

[bcipam]

I totally agree, Being gay has nothing to do with pedophilia. The monsters that prey upon children do it not because of a certain sexual orientation but because of the weakness of children. These person are weak themselves and molesting children is the only way they can dominant.

I believe somewhat that many of these men have gone into the priesthood because they had a belief this was a way to cut off their deviant sexual fantasies and desires. The priesthood teaches discipline and these men were seeking control over their feelings. The problem of course is that it actually placed them in a position to act on their feelings. Everyone trusts priest. People trust them with their children. Children are taught at an early age to respect and trust a priest. Long story short, molestations occurred and it was so wrong for the Church to allow these men to go unpunished.

If I have another criticizm of the Catholic Church, it's that they place too much power in their priests. Priests are just men, not any different from any other man. Although clergy should be respected, they do not stand above any one person, we are all equal (this includes gays and straights) in the eyes of God. As men, priest have the ability to sin and the Church body needs to wake up and realize this. What self-respecting parent would allow their sons (and daughters) to go off on over night camping trips etc with a 40 year old guy and no one else. Because he is a priest it's OK? We all have the ability to sin. What the fear of God does is keep us from acting on temptation and those desires. It's hard, even for the most discipline among us.

[Irulan]

if you read the details, plenty of women have been abused by priests too. It may not be the same deal as pedophilia, but it's certainly poeple with power taking advantage of other's vulnerablitlies.

irulan

[bcipam]

Spazz:

Getting into the gay/straight thing... I'm straight, like being straight, will be nothing other than straight. I am also a conservative Evangelical Christian which means I have a literally belief in the bible.

OK that said, on both sides of the coin, there are people who choose to past judgement on other people. I realize there are "bible-thumpers" that give all us Christians a bad name. Say you are a conservative Christian and almost everyone thinks I like Jerry Falwell. I don't and he doesn't represent the majority of Christian any more that Rev. Jesse Jackson speaks for Afro-Americans. In addition, I realize that overly flamboyant, lisping gays do not represent that vast majority of the gay community. They are, however, a very vocal, and intolerant group of people, not any different then Falwell's followers.

I do have a belief system. It is that marriage is a Christian ideal. Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman under the moral and idealogy that is taught by my Christian faith. Does this mean that only a man and a woman could make a commitment to each other? Of course not. I truly believe most states should allow civil commitment ceremonies for gays and straights (obviously there are straight people who do not want to be married in a Church).

I'm divorced. That means I cannot morally engage in sex unless I am in committed relationship with a man. The same applies to the gay community. What I think has upset many Christians is the casualness that some gays (and I realize many gays are in monogamous, long term relationships there is nothing wrogn with that) engage in sex. That's just wrong, no matter who you are. Does that mean I've never had a one night stand? No, I've sinned. I'm human so not perfect and will continue to sin the rest of my life but as a Christian, I'm trying to do better; to be a better person. I do know and understand that casual sex is wrong.

God is a kind God, but he is also a very strick parent. The rules are set (i.e. 10 commandments and the bible) and he asks that we follow them. Failure to do so will lead to punishment (ie rejection from the Kingdom of Heaven). But we do have the choice to reject his rules. We just need to realize there is a consequence.

Not trying to preach here. Just stating my opinion. And everyone has had great input. I appreciate the candor and opportunity to discuss some serious topics, away from cycling (yes there are other things in life than bikes).

[snapdragen]

Spazz, I think I know what group you are talking about. Fred Phelps is the leader I believe. I remember them hanging around the Pride Festival a couple of years ago. Very mean hearted people, nothing Christian about them. Their website is enought to make you vomit.

They also hate the country of Sweden :eek: not quite sure of the reasoning. They claim the tsunami in Indonesia was God's wrath upon the evil Swedes. (Evidently a lot of swedish people take holiday in Indonesia)

[spazzdog]

You may be right Snap... him and 8-12 very mean spirited and seemingly uneducated people using supposed gospel to support their platform.

A class act all the way... :mad:

[slinkedog]

Oh! That Fred Phelps guy makes me ashamed to call myself a Christian because he gets so much media coverage that I'm afraid that people think that's what we're all like. I know I was talking earlier about accepting everyone at the point they're at in their journey, but I seriously want to beat that guy up. I think they have a name for those people... oh yeah... insane psycho freaks, to quote the new version of "Freaky Friday," which, by the way, is a very fun movie and I encourage all of you to see it. ;)

[Trek420]

snapdragen sez "They also hate the country of Sweden :eek: not quite sure of the reasoning."

Maybe he's Norwegian? I hear there's no love lost between the two neighboring countries :cool:

[BikeMomma]

I get discouraged when humankind must always address each other with labels........I wish there was some other way to think of others, rather than put them in stereotypes or classifications. We are all just individuals....and ultimately, we are the same.

I'm not religious, really, but sometimes I'd like to believe that there is someone up there, whoever it may be, looking over me and making sure I don't screw up. But I screw up anyway.

I once worked with a beautiful girl who I liked very much...she was so bubbly and friendly and we got along wonderfully. One day, she nervously told me that she was homosexual, I think afraid of what I may think of her. I think I told her "So what? You're still the same person you were about 5 seconds ago." I'm heterosexual, but it made me like her even more, that she told me who she really was. It left a lasting impression, and with a new understanding that homosexuals are just people, like me. No big deal.

I say if two people love each other, let 'em get married. Legally.

:D :p

[Trek420]

bcipam writes and so we're

"I'm straight, like being straight, will be nothing other than straight."

All well and good! As for me I can't even ride my bike straight. I hope you don't think anyone who is gay wants to change any of that, we don't.

We think you're fabulous just the way you are.

"I realize that overly flamboyant, lisping gays do not represent that vast majority of the gay community."

Actually, you are wrong, yes they do represent me and I'm proud of them.

Just how flamboyant do we get to be?

How much is too much?

You might see me, work or ride with me and never know I'm gay. I look like any other 50 year old gal out there...except with waaaaaay better legs, thanks TE gals.

But what rights I have were won by folks who could not "pass" as straight, frankly by butch D*kes and Nelly men. They had nothing to loose, they couldn't hide or pass for straight they fought back. I love them.

"I do have a belief system. It is that marriage is a Christian ideal. Marriage is a commitment between a man and a woman under the moral and idealogy that is taught by my Christian faith."

Good, I'm glad to hear that you do have a spiritual path, me too. From what I've read of Christianity I appreciate the teachings.

Taking a deep breath, counting to 10, thinking happy thoughts about this board. OK. I'm Jewish, they call it Judeo/Christian for a reason. I'm hearing you say that marriage is a Christian ideal? I'm glad you feel that way, that it's an ideal but ya didn't invent it ;-)

Uh, I'm not observant or anything I even eat shrimp (see thread above) and I'm not going to debate scripture with you because I'll loose. Our calendar starts 3,760 years and three months *before* Christ was born. Christ was a Jew, the last supper was a Passover meal, we go back a bit.

I've always felt that for one to call oneself a Christian you should understand a bit about our Jewish faith just like for one to know where you are going you gotta know where you've been. But then that's just me.

Marriage is practiced in other religions, Hindu, Buddhist, Shinto, Muslim all have the ideal of commitment to another it's not just a Christian thang. I think it's a value we all share worldwide, a human thing.

And yes there are millions of Gay Christians and those of us who practice other religions too. I'm getting the feeling that some think it's mutualy exclusive like if you're Gay you can't be religious.

"Does this mean that only a man and a woman could make a commitment to each other? Of course not. I truly believe most states should allow civil commitment ceremonies for gays and straights (obviously there are straight people who do not want to be married in a Church)."

Yes, my parents were married in City Hall, happily married for 62 years. My Dad died last year.

Ask a million gay people and you'll get a million different answers. I'm just speaking for me, it's not the commitment ceremony, I can do that without any states permission. It's not the toasters and blenders you get, I can do that too although a blender would be nice. I got enough toasters recruiting straight gals (I am soooooooooooooooo kidding, really. Just could not resist the jab) but please continue to send the fondue sets ;-)

You can call it marriage, civil union, call it PBJ on toast, whatever you want I don't care what you call it. I do care about the thousands of rights priveleges and yes, responsibilities that come with it.

Should I be so lucky to find the gal o' my dreams to ride off into the sunset with were talking about the right to make medical decisions, I know people kept out of hospital rooms while their partners lay mortally ill, who lost their homes because they were considered "legal strangers", protecting the custody of kids and so on.

"I'm divorced. That means I cannot morally engage in sex unless I am in committed relationship with a man. The same applies to the gay community. What I think has upset many Christians is the casualness that some gays (and I realize many gays are in monogamous, long term relationships there is nothing wrogn with that) engage in sex."

I'm sorry to hear about the divorce although I know sometimes it's for the best.

Our conundrum in my community it seems to be the argument is made that we shouldn't marry is that we are considered promiscuous, but folks don't allow us to be "civilised" so you see round and round that goes.

Well, give us the right to marry or whatever you want us to call it and let's see what happens. Bet you'd be pleasantly surprised. Don't know the figures on average but my long term relationships have lasted longer than any of my brother's 3 marriages.

"Not trying to preach here. Just stating my opinion."

Me neither, me too. Didn't take it as preaching at all, thankful for the space to share oppinions and beliefs and to hear yours. Not meaning to make this forum or even this thread a debate about Gay rights, just one gals oppinions and there are lots more important things to do like protect kids and....just get out and ride.

"I appreciate the candor and opportunity to discuss some serious topics, away from cycling (yes there are other things in life than bikes)."

there are things other than bikes? :) ;) :cool: :rolleyes:

[BikeMomma]

there are things other than bikes? :) ;) :cool: :rolleyes:
yep....'fraid so.....
But I'd rather just think about bikes (and ride 'em!) :D :D

[Trek420]

BikeMomma "yep....'fraid so.....
But I'd rather just think about bikes (and ride 'em!) :D :D[/QUOTE]"

Yep, me too. And wherever the heck we are on the Kinsey scale we all share one love in common here, we love Bike Porn! That and Gorgeous George...how many days till the TdF?

Thanks TE for bringing us all together here and providing a space.

[newrider]

My new bike, which I love so much, is red/white/blue. Only comes in red/white/blue. Almost didn't buy the bike because it's red/white/blue.

I love the country (sing it, Woody! This Land is Your Land...), but sure have blood-pressure raising issues with the Administration of the country's government. I'm afraid of what the U.S. flag has come to represent. Being patriotic seems to mean towing the administrations line....

Back when the Iraq war was new, there were flags everywhere in the schools I travel to as part of my work. I was apprehensive about what little kids were learning about the war, about being good citizens, about freedom (having a voice of dissent). I found a little flag pin that said "Peace is patriotic," and wore it on my coat. Felt I was at least saying *something else*.

Anyway, I bought the bike, of course, wasn't going to let the administration prevent me from living!!!! :D ;) 2 days later, on my first group ride, there were 2 guys wearing Cannondale Peace Jerseys (beautiful, orange...). Asked them where they found them, then came home and ordered my own from the Performance Bikes website. The women's version is mostly light blue, and will go *so* well with my bike. Oh Fortuna! :p ;) :cool: :D :D

So my bike will get to speak her mind, lovingly and with hope!!! And I will, too. ;)

I enjoy so much reading all these posts, and feeling the care that everyone seems to generate. Thanks for being who you are! :)

[spazzdog]

What Trek420 said... basically we all deserve the same rights under the law and under the god we worship, after all he/she created each and everyone of us in his/her image. Period.

Listen my lovely TE family (because that's what y'all really are in my life);

I opened this thread, not to be a gay vs straight thing, though through my own choosing of the 2 issues so far, it may appear that way. This is a thread for "religion, politics, and whatever taboo"... all the stuff we're not supposed to talk about at the old dinner party.

I do not want it to be come an "us vs them" thing. I consider you all to be intelligent, open minded and caring women whom I respect, thusly when certain analogies are made, feelings/sensitivities can get hurt. To bcipam: to compare the nelly boys with Falwell is a bit hurtful. He spouts intolerance and hate, something the boys do not do. I would respectfully ask that we all watch our analogies in this forum.

End of speech. And to all, I thank you for sharing your opinions here.

Now somebody else pick the next "taboo". :D

[wabisabi]

Thanks for this thread everyone. I have great difficulty, not with one's spiritual beliefs, but with the seeming need to impose that belief system upon everyone else. As Trek pointed out, some of us practice in traditions that are old and have strong ethical systems, or we have an ethically based system of right and wrong. I simply cannot understand the need (in THIS country in particular) to impose that upon everyone else, tho' I get the impression that 'evangelizing' (i.e., those people who come quite uninvited to MY door) is about this. This is a huge blind spot! It seems to me that these folks should practice loving others and for developing in themselves compassion for all, in all of their weirdness and wonderfulness; love between people is such a rare and precious thing. When people are not allowed to express it, maybe are even killed for it, I can imagine that this takes a tremendous psychological and emotional toll--how can this not crack open our hearts in love?

OK, I work in this general territory, so I guess I had to drag out a soapbox. Stepping down now.

[Trek420]

newrider writes "My new bike, which I love so much, is red/white/blue. Only comes in red/white/blue. Almost didn't buy the bike because it's red/white/blue."

you'll need the matching helmet, check it out:

http://www.lazerhelmets.com/site/cycling/default.asp?cid=148&cat=1&item=2

[bcipam]

Love the passionate discussion.

Just want to clarify some things. When I say I am straight and will never be anything but I didn't say it to pass judgement. Being straight for me is a biological thing. I didn't choose it - that's just the way I am. I physically like men although they at times drive me nuts. I don't know for a fact (but hopefully will be informed otherwise) but I believe most gay people don't choose that orientation - they just are. That is the way God made them and to hate/ridicule/berrate/condemn one of God's creations is just wrong, no matter who you are.

I realize there is a Catch 22 in most states. I do believe a committed gay couple should be allowed to have a civil ceremony to confirm their commitment. They are no different than a regular straight couple in that way they love each other and wish to care for one another. I had two dear friends, who were in a comittment relationship, that went through alot of grief and hassle when one of the partners contracted AIDS. The one partner had no say or control over the sick partner which was unfortunate. They were together for 16 years. The remaining partner is a good friend to this day and we both grieve over the loss of his one true love.

It's difficult when viewpoints are so opposite. I am sometimes frustrated by the fact that everyone is allowed to express their views but mention you are a conversative christian and that viewpoint is condemned/belittled for being "preaching" or "judgement". We all judge things in our own way. Liberals judge our government by saying the Iraqi war is wrong or by arguing the far left viewpoint is the viewpoint of all conversatives and conversely, I agree, there are conservatives that think all liberals are "pinko commies".

I have my beliefs as others have their but I enjoy and look forward to listening to what everyone has to offer. It's important to hear the other side, to learn and understand another viewpoint. I'm interested in hearing what obstrucles and problems the gay community has encountered in order to understand what it is like to live as a Liberal Gay American in a country that is prodominantly Christian Conservative.

The cool thing about being an American is that we can have these discussions. Here, life is truly good.

* * *

Edited to add: Trek - Appreciate your response. I misspoke when I said Marriage is a Christian belief - it is - but clearly it started with Judiasm (sp?) The Old Testament/Jewish Laws are the basis of my Christian beliefs. The Jews are God's chosen people. For me to believe otherwise is wrong.

It's difficult sometimes in this type of forum to adequately express viewpoints and beliefs because the discourse and response is not immediately. I am not a gay bashing/jew hating person. Uncertain how that has come across in what I have posted, but if anyone has been offended, I apologize.

[bcipam]

Spazz:

It took me awhile to figure out what "nelly boys" are. I've never heard that term.

I have several good friends who also happen to be gay. They hate the fact that everyone expects them to be flamboyant, like Jack on "Will and Grace." If my friends didn't tell you they were gay, you wouldn't know it. From them, I understood most gay men (can't speak for women) don't like to necessarily be associated with "nelly boys." They hate "Will and Grace" and cringe at the mention of Jack and characters like him. I admit I've learned only from my friends and there are alot of viewpoints out there. I'm interested in hearing from you as to whom you respect to speak for the gay community and what issues and problems you feel affect the Community and what would do you think needs to be done to resolve those issues. Help educate me and others understand best where you all are coming from.

[newbiechick]

I just want to say that I'm not sure I've ever encountered another forum anywhere where people have voiced their views, beliefs, concerns, passions, etc. so eloquently and remained so open, accepting, and non-judging of others in the process. Kudos to all of you who've contributed here for taking the high road! While I don't feel a need to weigh in on any particular issue at the moment, I know I'll feel comfortable doing so if/when the time comes.

[wabisabi]

According to the folks at Gallup, 8 of 10 people in the U.S. say they are Christian, with 4 of 10 attending church regularly, but this by no means equates to "conservative." I have a lot of friends who are good old social activist leftist, progressive Christians, some gay and lesbian, some not, as are some represented here. Some Christian churches have very progressive policies toward social justice issues, and would likely take issues with being characterized as "predomimantly" conservative. It's a big country.

[spazzdog]

I believe no one and every one speaks for the gay community. We are no different than the straight community excepting for whom we choose to love.

We are democrats, repulicans, independants, socialists. We are doctors, lawyers, ditch diggers and military personel. We have children by birth or by adoption. We are christians, jews, muslims, buddists and atheists. We are every race. We wear dresses, pants, shorts, sandals, skirts, high heels, oxfords and go barefoot. We travel around the world or never leave our home town. We are your neighbor, your sibling, your aunt, your uncle. We are your child, your child's best fiend, your niece or your nephew.

We are everywhere, in every country. That is what I know about the gay community.

As to eleviating the issues facing my community... I don't have the answers. All I know is the first step in this very young country of ours, is for people to stop being so concerned about what goes on between consenting adults. My marriage (if I have one) has nothing to do with a straight marriage. The U.S.A. is mine as much as it is anyone elses... and I pay the taxes to prove it.

And for the record, marriage is a religious union. If my religion allows marriage why should anybody elses religion care. A legal union is what you get the license for (and pay your state) and something which all people of age should have equal rights to.

spazzdog - who's done all the "cerebral" stuff she can today. :cool:

[Melody]

I've come into this discussion a bite late, but I thought I'd put in a word. :D

I was raised and still am Catholic and very religious. I also don't believe homosexual == pedophile. I am, however, sad for what the Church authorities have done. The Church isn't just the priests and nuns and other officials, but it is also the lay people. Without the people, the Church doesn't exist.

One thing I learned in parochial school was that the officials of the church, the priests and the nuns, are people too and thus fallable. Yes, this even means the Pope. We all make mistakes. None of us are perfect.

I'd like to think, in generally, the Church is a decent organization. We have problems with close mindedness, but that exists everywhere. Conservativism exists. But, another thing I learned was do not believe something is true just because someone in power (like a priest) said that This Is The Truth(tm). Instead, question the belief. Examine it. Is it true for you? Do you feel it is right? If so, embrace it and make it your own. If it isn't, voice your questions and have it explained. The answer "Just because" is not an answer.

Admittedly, it's been tough at times. I had a hard time coming to grips with my own sexuality (I'm bi) and other things going on in my life. I've worked through them and ultimately, I gained strength and purpose.

What's funny is that I'm still a pretty conservative person. I was even a founding member of the Young Republicans at my University. :P But I am also quite liberal in many aspects. I'm a person so not one thing defines me. To grow, is to also change and adapt. :)

I once had a conversation with my husband about gay marriage and I thought he had an interesting solution. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you view it) Marriage is both civil and religious. He thought that that instead, it should be seperated. He believes that all Unions should be civil and thus form of contract between two individuals. Thus, gay-straight-whatever, at a state and federal level, would always be a Union and thus laws, such as divorce, inheritance, and medical, would be the same for all.

But, if you wanted a Marriage, then it would strictly be religious and have no bearing from a civil standpoint. It would thus be up to that religion if they would allow gay marriage, but all such marriages would have no legal standing, only a religious one.

I hope I made some sense in all of this. :)

Mel

[Trek420]

bcipam adds: "Trek - The Jews are God's chosen people. For me to believe otherwise is wrong.:

Yes but I believe it was Henny Youngman who asked "G**, could you choose us for something else?" :cool: :rolleyes: ;)

[slinkedog]

LOL!!! That's the best laugh I've had all day. :D

[newrider]

Trek 420! What a helmet! :eek: I can see it now, with little American Flags stuck in the vents! :eek: :p

It's called "the Cannibal?" Sounds pretty much like American economics to me!! ;)

Thanks for the visual! :p

[Trek420]

newrider "I can see it now, with little American Flags stuck in the vents! :eek: :p"

and red white and blue tassles on the handlebars :cool:

[pedaddler]

i've been away from the list for some time and just happened to pick up here today. i started out angry at the association of gay and pedophile, settled down a bit with the flow of the thread, and finally at the last page, felt thankful that i can read and participate in a forum like this one, the open and free expression of thoughts. i'm gay and not catholic, or christian, or jewish or anything else that fits neatly into a box, thank you very much, and am grateful for the expression here. kudos to all of you who put yourselves out there.

victoria

[bcipam]

I once had a conversation with my husband about gay marriage and I thought he had an interesting solution. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depends on how you view it) Marriage is both civil and religious. He thought that that instead, it should be seperated. He believes that all Unions should be civil and thus form of contract between two individuals. Thus, gay-straight-whatever, at a state and federal level, would always be a Union and thus laws, such as divorce, inheritance, and medical, would be the same for all.

But, if you wanted a Marriage, then it would strictly be religious and have no bearing from a civil standpoint. It would thus be up to that religion if they would allow gay marriage, but all such marriages would have no legal standing, only a religious one.





That's exactly what I think should be allowed and don't understand why it has not yet occurred. Any two, sound minded consenting adults should be allowed to form a legal union in order to consummate their commitment and to legally grant the same rights to each partner regardless of sexual orientation. Marriage is and should remain a religious union.

I believe as Americans every citizen has the right to protection under the law. Federally there are protected classes such as persons of color, religious affiliation, woman, persons over 40, the disabled etc. Sexual preference is not a protected right and I suppose there are alot of good valid arguments as to why it is not and there are good arguments as to why it should be included. Gays have been discriminated against but then again, so have persons who are overweight, or who choose to dress in an inappropriate manner accepted by society (such as goth, punk, gangstra etc). I believe its the general concensus that those groups choose to be that way as opposed to say being born black or brown. You do have a choice to conform and operate within normal society (by the way, not my opinion, I believe being gay is a biological/genetic issue).

Many people (and this includes a number of my friends) believe gays make the choice to be gay and thus can make the choice to return to being straight in order to conform with society. It's interesting that this thread combines religion and sexual preference as religion, which is Federally protected, is the one protected right that a person chooses. I cannot choose to be black, a woman, over 40 but I can choose to be a Christian.

It appears, from reading the posts on this thread, that some gays have turned away from God. I can understand not feeling welcomed by the Church body. It is very hard for people to understand that the Church is not God but a body of people who struggle to learn and understand and live within God's laws and no church is perfect or has it right. I hate to see people turn away from God because of something a church (and by that I mean its people) has done. That Church and its people are full of sin and pride and thus looked down upon by God.

I know there are alot of different churches out there. Somes welcome gays (all churches should welcome gays but then again, there are alot of stupid, uneducated and uniformed people out there). One can also study the bible on their own and by doing so, will understand how God sees all us children. As his creation we are all equal, not one more so than the other. We unfortunately develop as we mature and grow, through experience and temptation, a sinful soul, it's hard to live life without breaking the Commandments or without pride. Hopefully it's through a Forum such as this one we can discuss, learn and understand the shoes each of us walks in.

I myself for many years did not have belief in God (I was raised Buddist by the way). Several years back I had an experience which I would not wish on anyone (trust me it was your worse nigthmare), but through it I came to understand that God does exist, that he offers us each a better life and that I no longer need to be afraid of dying because something so much better is waiting for me. I can't tell you how much beter my life has been since I accepted Jesus as my savior. Now is it all bunk? I suppose it might be, but I have faith I'm right in knowing God exists.

* * *

It's a shame that these types of discussion must be catagorized in a "taboo" section. That expressing one's belief causes other to get angry and upset. Just know that I'm interested in hearing each person's thoughts and want to understand how each of us think and live.


OK - enough already I guess... I need to go ride!

[spazzdog]

I called it "the taboo's" because it encompasses all the subjects you're told should never be discussed at social gatherings, not because I particularly believe them to be "taboo subjects".

That's all...

[Veronica]

It's a shame that these types of discussion must be catagorized in a "taboo" section. That expressing one's belief causes other to get angry and upset.

On most other boards, this thread would have been deleted almost as soon as Spazzdog started it because the participants on other boards don't know how to play nice and respect each other. A lot of boards specifically say not to bring these topics up because they cause so much dissension. The anonymity of the net gives some individuals the freedom to be as rude and disrespectful as they want. We've demonstrated we can be more responsible, so we're given more freedom here. :)

I wonder if part of why we are so understanding of differences here is that many of us are not "anonymous." We've met, we've ridden together. We are a "community." Even those we've never met, we feel like we know. How many of us have read Denise's journal every day? I've never met her, but I'm reading her journal. How many of us are cheering Emily's recovery on? Again, I've never met her, but I'm thrilled that she's progressing well. I love my Brooks saddle and I wish Nuthatch's was working out better for her. I hope Surly gets her bike soon. When you're part of a group, you are more conscious of not upsetting it.

Now I need to think about going for a ride, :D


V.

[Trek420]

spazzdog suggests "Now somebody else pick the next "taboo". :D"

how about:
wearing a complete team kit in a race when you're not a member of the team and .....

can we wear missmatched bike socks?

oh, and I forgot when is it we have to stop wearing white? After Labor Day?

[SadieKate]

can we wear missmatched bike socks?Only if you have another pair at home just like them.

[SadieKate]

wearing a complete team kit in a race when you're not a member of the team My husband has this theory that if you can't translate every word on your jersey assume you're advertising condoms. :eek:

[CorsairMac]

My husband has this theory that if you can't translate every word on your jersey assume you're advertising condoms. :eek:

ROFLMAO - I gotta tell ya SK, the more I hear about your DH, the better I like that guy!! Tell him I think that's hilarious!!




can we wear missmatched bike socks?

ummm......ermmmm....I do. When my friends kid asked me why my socks didn't match I told her it was coz one was a boy sock and one was a girl sock!

[LBTC]

When my friends kid asked me why my socks didn't match I told her it was coz one was a boy sock and one was a girl sock!

In other words, the rest of us have gay socks! wow! I had no idea!

:D

Namaste,
~T~

[Trek420]

LBTC "In other words, the rest of us have gay socks! wow! I had no idea!"

Just what I thought, I can't even ride my bike straight :rolleyes: :cool:

[spazzdog]

youz grrls is cwackin' me up!

Full kit... noooooo. Such a "poser" thing to do. I don't even buy the pro jerseys, even though there are a couple I'd like to have (skittles team and jelly belly team... heaven help me if a gummy bear team ever happens).

Nothing makes me cringe so much as a fella with 'dun laps' disease huffin and puffin up the road in full USPS kit and ridin a pro TREK bike.

spazz (i know, that was kinda mean... i'm sorry already)

[singletrackmind]

Ooooh, my poor hubby.
Don't laugh too hard as he puffs by on his Mapei Colnogo w/jersey/shorts, ok? Does it help that bike, outfit and rider are all a little outdated??
That it's not the typical Lance getup?
That he harbors no unrealistic opinions of himself as a rider?

He may have a bit of a gut but he's almost everything I could ask for in a partner and I wouldn't trade him for any hardbodied dude on the planet.

(You weren't mean and I know what you mean but DH was what popped up when I read that....Don't tell him, he's having a bit of a complex lately and trying so awfully hard to ditch the belly...He's hot even with and not just 'cause it's a hunnert degrees out there! :D )

Say YES to civil unions for all people who wish them!!! I'm not religious, does that mean I'm unionized, not married?? Works for me. Just give EVERYONE equal rights already (why does this seem like such a no-brainer to me and so many others but hasn't been done already?)

[Veronica]

Ooooh, my poor hubby.
Don't laugh too hard as he puffs by on his Mapei Colnogo w/jersey/shorts, ok? Does it help that bike, outfit and rider are all a little outdated??
That it's not the typical Lance getup?
That he harbors no unrealistic opinions of himself as a rider?



Who are we to judge your hubby? Just as long as he says "hello" or something when we pass.

That's my latest thing - trying to engage riders in conversation as they pass me going up Diablo. I got one guy on Sunday to tell Thom that my orange jersey did NOT clash with my bike.

V.

[singletrackmind]

I'm the waver/says hi! person! He'd wave back though.. :)

And clash? How can anyone possibly clash on a bike?? I figure the scarier you look the farther the cars will stay away (except those that tend to veer the direction they're staring :eek: ).

[Veronica]

Waves are good. I wave at people coming at me. I expect a wave or nod back. :) I understand people not waving when they're descending. I like my two hands on the bike thank you.

I meant folks who pass going in the same direction, need to say something.

V.

[singletrackmind]

You know, that whole acknowledges/doesn't acknowledge thing has been the topic of heated discussion on the local bike board. I agree with you, I'll say hi or wave or nod-it seems friendly and reasonable. I'm no great convo starter but I'll respond in some non-witty fashion if someone talks to me.
Being on a bike makes me feel a certain amount of camaraderie for others that share my need to pedal.

Some people don't care to communicate, I can respect that too (but I smell my armpits and wonder why :p )

[Veronica]

(but I smell my armpits and wonder why :p )

Maybe that's it. I've been riding in the morning and not bothering with a shower first. All I've done is sleep since the last one. Have I been forgetting the deoderant? Hmm...

V.

[singletrackmind]

Oh gosh, same here! It's 5am when I sneak out before DH goes to work (been too hot to trailer the kid this week) yer lucky I bother with my teeth!!
We may have stumbled upon something here!

If only it worked on cars!!!! :D

[spazzdog]

hey singletrack... i'm sure your DH is a fine fella, and very lucky to be loved no matter his form.

when i bought my aqua sapone zebra striped Allez Comp, friends from all over were after me to get the matching jersey/skinsuit. I just flat couldn't do it. me, all dressed up like Mario Cipollini of 2002 "zebrato" fame, pedaling along at a blazing speed of 16 mph... uh-uh, no way, no how.

i mean can you imagine...

[singletrackmind]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/smcr/rofl.gif
Hey, great legs!

Sorry about getting away from the topic of this thread......I'm really glad you started it and it's really refreshing to have a topic such as discussed so civilly. Whether they agree or dis-this is a great bunch of people.

Every consenting adult couple should be allowed the same privileges and penalties marriage brings (or whatever it'd be called) if they wish to take their relationship to that point. I absolutely cannot see what makes a gay person any different than a straight one on anything but sexual preference.

[Trek420]

Veronica hits the nail on the head with "part of why we are so understanding of differences here is that many of us are not "anonymous." We've met, we've ridden together. We are a "community." Even those we've never met, we feel like we know."

Most prejuidice I feel is based on fear, people fear the unknown, avoid it, which then easily becomes "us vs. them". So folks think they don't know any Gay folk and fear that. I know lots and lots of Christians (Half my family. Has anyone in my family married a nice Jewish boy/girl?) but none well that are conservative.

Here we get to ride together, even those who are nowhere nearby share that it feels less alone because we share out experiences of rides .... and share cookies. We find out we have lots in common not just the bikes.

maybe if more people did this.....

Now I need to go find matching socks.
:cool:

[singletrackmind]

I bet the chances someone they hold in esteem is gay, even if just a friendly acquaintance, is very likely.

I wish those that are fearful (I think you're right) could not only realize this but also not look at the gays they do know through different eyes.

[Trek420]

singletrackmind "I bet the chances someone they hold in esteem is gay, even if just a friendly acquaintance, is very likely."

Odds are even a family member.

"I wish those that are fearful (I think you're right) could not only realize this but also not look at the gays they do know through different eyes."

Our part in this is it's up to gay people to come out to their families and friends the extent they feel comfortable with whom they can. Otherwise folks think it's just Rosie and Ellen and Jack and not approx. 10% of any given population including this board I suppose ;-)

I remember in college centuries ago having coffee after a Karate class with my teacher, just chatting I don't remember how the subject came up I think it was about women in the sport and the difficulty getting promoted in rank anyway and she started going on about how she didn't like lesbians. She felt we are tough, overbearing, pushy, aggressive, diesel truck driving b****s she's going on and finally I'd just about had it.

I thought to myself "self, you may loose a friend here but I can't listen to this s*** any longer"

So said "but Carol, I'm Gay. You don't think I'm like that, do you?"

You could see the lightbulb go off. "No, you're not, I like you. guess they are all different".

No one's asking anyone to like all Gay people, some of us are just plain *not* likeable just like some Christians barely deserve the compliment and name.

You might dislike me for any one of my many faults but that's just me there's no "Gay personality" we're all different.

[singletrackmind]

I think to myself "self....." too!

It's not just gays, either, it's difference. When I was a kid I had a couple of friends who had a caucasion mom and african-american dad. One day I was helping my grandma make jelly and she started going on about how horrible it was that Bryon and George would never be able to date because of being 'zebras' and all. I didn't understand what she meant at first-just pictured my friends with stripes and thought grandma had lost it. I just said "anyone they want to?".

After some thought to her comments my little kid head finally got it and I never could get over that she'd think that way.

How about that? I'm intollerant of differences too-of some opinions!

We shouldn't like or dislike others because of who they sleep with (or marry or their color or weight or whatall) but for who they are as an individual.

[Trek420]

It's been argued that the Constitution should not be ammended to ban Gay marriage because the Constitution protects rights and has *never* been used to discriminate.

But we should never forget that in December of 1912, an amendment to the Constitution was introduced to abolish racial intermarriage:

"Intermarriage between negros or persons of color and Caucasians . . . within the United States . . . is forever prohibited."

wow, "forever prohibited".

I'm not quite sure of the year but the anti-misegnation (sp?) laws were not removed till something like late 60's? Someone? Anyone sure of the date? Technicaly I read they are still on the books in some of the Southern States but not enforced.

C'mon folks, these are heterosexual marriages were considered void right here in the good ol' USA or who could not marry. In bringing up this issue I've had people talk to me about this, straight couples sharing how they felt being unable to marry, and the same arguments were used against them.

I don't consider myself old, c'mon folks we're still going through this?

[Irulan]

ok, I'm going to jump in here.

Both my parents are/were gay, one is deceased. I've worked really hard at seperating out thier personal problems, of which there were many, from sexual orientation.

Here's my question. Can someone please explain the whole seperatist thing to me? I just don't get it. Is it hate, self protection, anger or what?

Not once but twice in my life I have been disinvited from a gay person's home - a day visit was fine, but staying overnight was out of the question. Both times I was traveling with a boyfriend. Once time it was a male couple's home, friend of the boyfriends, and the other time it was my mom's housemates. "no straight people f*****g" at our house" is what I was told. ( like they were going to wait and watch to see what we did at night????)Why she let it happen is a different story but anyway... I can't imagine it was anything that I/we did, it seemed just a philosophy that was happening.

The really hilarious thing is that during these traveling days, we also stopped at boyfriend ( now hubby's) parents, and they told us we couldn't sleep together since we weren't married. This was within a few days of being de-welcomed at one of these other places. Talk about can't win for losing...

anyway, it was a really long time ago, but I still know seperatists, ( no male anything: no boy dogs, car mechanics, repair persons, etc) and I just don't get it. Anyone care to elaborate?

the good thing about being raised in the nutty home I was raised in is that I am a very open minded person, but somethings I just need clarity on.

Irulan

[bcipam]

Irulan:

What an interesting upbringing! Hopefully this isn't a stupid question but were your parents male and female (but gay married to each other), or male/male or female/female? Did your friend understand your parents were gay and if so, how did they react? Would yu consider it a normal household (I know what's normal nowadays, but you know, tradition roles, didn't ecpect you to be one way ot the other etc)?

Geez, I would love to sit down over an ice tea and salad and talk about your life. Your insight must be amazing!

[bikerz]

Well, I'm gay and I don't get the separatism either! (Ahem) some of my best friends are straight!

I've known some gay folks over the years (mostly a generation older than I am) who tended to not to hang out with straight people, of either gender - and I just figured they must have suffered so much from discrimination or intolerance, that they had decided not to put themselves in the path of further pain by surrounding themselves with "like-minded" people only. But I suppose other separatists would have other reasons.

I guess, to the degree we can choose to, we all avoid people that make us crazy, uncomfortable, angry, scared, etc. But, as this thread has so admirably shown, if we surround ourselves and interact only with like-minded people, no matter how broad we think our own minds are, we lose the opportunity to understand and accept all of what life offers.

I have been so impressed and grateful for the thoughful, heartfelt, humorous and respectful posts on this topic - it's a pretty extraordinary conversation!

[wabisabi]

Interesting news this am from Spain; it is easier to see it happening in places like The Netherlands and Belgium--even Canada--but Spain legalizing marrriage for gay people! Of course, when you realize that they have also provided things like affordable state subsidized child care for parents --- clearly they are socially pretty progressive.

Of course, there are also fabulous cyclists from Spain. Coincidence?

[Irulan]

Irulan:

What an interesting upbringing! Hopefully this isn't a stupid question but were your parents male and female (but gay married to each other), or male/male or female/female? Did your friend understand your parents were gay and if so, how did they react? Would yu consider it a normal household (I know what's normal nowadays, but you know, tradition roles, didn't ecpect you to be one way ot the other etc)?

Geez, I would love to sit down over an ice tea and salad and talk about your life. Your insight must be amazing!

My dad, deceased now, was closeted until I was in my teens. He had the
time of his life in the WWII army, lost his job with the State Dept in the
McCarthy era due to being followed to gay bars, my mom thought she could
change him and maybe he thought she could, too. " There are no other WOMEN" was his MO. My mom, to this day I'm not sure if she knows where she fits exactly, but chose to start to move into the gay women's community about 35 years ago. I'm 45.

I'm convinced that if my father had been in a culture where he was free to
be who he really was, instead of being closeted, pretending, and living a
double life, he would have been a much less troubled man than he was. Of I
might not have been born, then.

My parents had a lot of problems, and my home life was very dysfunctional.
They did a lot of things "wrong" that would not have happened in any family
that was emotionally healthy, and committed to each other, regardless of sexual orientation. Please take note that I've worked really hard to seperate out personal problems from sexual
orientation. It wasn't a movie perfect family by a long shot. But I know
plenty of gay families that exemplify the kind of functional family life I
wish I could have, and I'm trying to be a much better parent to my kids than
my parents were to me.

to try and answer some of your other questions, first, no pressure to be anything other than who I am. Second, as to what people and their reactions, judgements: this was the 60's and 70's, my dad was closeted. There were a lot of problems in our house, but no one talked about dysfunctional families back then. Every kid I knew back then, in my teens - we all had some sort of problems at home but we never talked about them. Our family was sort of on the counterculture fringe anyway, so - anything goes, you know?

Insight, I dunno. I'm pretty lifestyle tolerant. I'm more intested in people's general well being, emotional health, than who they sleep with.


~i.

[LBTC]

Irulan, you've had a very interesting journey! And good for you for not wanted to connect "messed-up" with sexual orientation.

If it helps to know this....my family could not have been more picture perfect from the outside, but I was an incredibly unhappy youngest child living with a bunch of backstabbing, sucking-up siblings, and parents whose (in)tolerance for each other was a strain to watch, but, since they are catholic and care greatly about what others think of them, still continue their loveless lifeless marriage to this day. At least I think it may still be all those "'less"es....I haven't spoken to them in years.

It's like one comment here. We do our best to avoid people who make us crazy, demoralized, lesser, sad, etc, etc, etc...so I avoid my family. I don't wish them any harm, just hope that they'll pretty much leave me alone.

I've noticed that separatist attitude from some groups once in awhile. I actually won't attend any of those vigils against violence against women as that's too discriminatory. I've seen women at those things turn on men who show up in support....and I think that's horrible. I haven't been hit by it, though, and admit it would be a huge shock!! and hurt!

thank you all for sharing your thoughts and feelings and opinions and stories. what an interesting group we are!!

Namaste
and hugs all around,
~T~

[spazzdog]

Separatism... now that one's a goodie. My 1st lover was a separatist. Our relationship was very interesting since, at the time, most of my gay friends were men and drag queens to boot (I was a "dresser" and photography for them).

I found that I couldn't be separatist... to me it's another form of discrimination. I remember thinking back then (and occasionally now) that we in the gay comunity couldn't realistically expect the world at large to accept us if we weren't willling to accept the different groups within our own community.

Thusly I live this way; there are tolerable people and intolerable people in every slice of the population, and I choose to recognize that. I've met many a gay woman and man that was mean, bully-ish, and exercising "domestic violence" on their partner. It's not just a "straight" or "racial" thing.

I don't divide my friends btn gay, straight, christian, jew, catholic, black, white, etc.

They are just my friends.

spazzdog

[Trek420]

I've never been a seperatist, never wanted to be one. I think I understand the reason some are but it would never work for me.

Some of my best friends are men, straight men at that. I like men, a whole lot! I just don't sleep with them is all .... any more. Not a gold star lesbian but that was so long ago it doesn't count. Anyway....

In an urban area and especially here it would be possible to simply dissapear in the Gay community but for one it's just not practical. The best bike mechanic is a man, my favorite restaraunts, book stores ... all run by any number of communities. I'd miss so much, be so limited. That's why I like it here is the diversity.

My friends and even family are all over the map. I'm lucky to be close to my family but also count the family I have chosen, my friends. What they all have in common is personality. I feel lucky to have found a group of friends who have inteligence, share my quirky sense of humor, love of good food, progressive politics, art, music. How could I dissregard them because this one's black, that one's Wiccan, that one's a guy.....they are all my friends.

Also I feel that Ghetto-ization (is that a word?) never works, it issolates and polarizes a community. We see this over and over. Difficult to explain this but I consider myself "twice blessed" as both Gay and a Jew. All of us have our feet in many worlds. I couldn't choose just one culture.

[bcipam]

Irulan:

Thank you so much for sharing some of your life. Uncertain if it is difficult for you to discuss it and if so thanks all the more for sharing.

I have often wondered if my mother is not gay. My parents are in their 80's so you can imagine that sort of thing was not discussed or even considered. My parents have been married over 56 years and appear to be happy or at least comfortable in their lifestyle but my mother has never liked men (my poor brother was pretty ridiculed growing up and that has scarred him for life). Even with her grandchildren (3 boys, 2 girls) she is pretty offstandish with the boys and absolutely adores the girls. My poor Dad, he just has more patience than anyone I know. Since I was a tom boy, more like my Dad than her, I wasn't particularly like as well.

So of course, my household was pretty dysfunctional as well for many other reasons. I'm not certain anyone has a "Ozzie and Harriet" upbringing. I guess the what you had gives you the strength and insight to see pass labels and societal taboos to see the real person. I hope my upbringing (which was difficult, I was physically abused by my mother who was not a happy person) has given me some strength as well.

I recently saw a program on Discovery Health about transgender sex operations. The folks they covered were men (andthere was also a show on women to men), who had married and had children and then decided they can no longer live the lie and needed to become women. The show didn't sugar coat what this does to the families. Where does this leave the wife? How about the kids? No real good answers and I guess now that society is more accepting of sexual differences, less people will try and hid their sexual differences, first live the"lie" and then destroy their families.

[RoadRaven]

Spazz... you left out pagans... :cool:

And I agree so much with you... people are poeple, regardless of their gender, their colour, race or ethnicity, or their religion or spirituality

People have faults and people have wonderful traits.

Its up to each of us to find the magic in every one else.

Separist attiutudes... whether they come from radical feminists, rabid animal rights people, fundementalist Christians, politicians, or our next door neighbours are unhealthy.

I'm not living in an ideal bubble-world where we can all hold hands and love each other unconditionally ... but I am saying why can't more people celebrate difference when that difference hurts no other creatures... why can't we learn to celebrate difference instead of fearing it?

[Trek420]

bcipam posts

"I have often wondered if my mother is not gay.....My parents have been married over 56 years .... but my mother has never liked men (my poor brother was pretty ridiculed growing up and that has scarred him for life). Even with her grandchildren (3 boys, 2 girls) she is pretty offstandish with the boys and absolutely adores the girls. My poor Dad, he just has more patience than anyone I know. Since I was a tom boy, more like my Dad than her, I wasn't particularly like as well."

Sounds like that was tough for all of you. Sorry to hear that.

Being a lesbian at least for me (speaking as I do for all gay people <vbg>) has never been about not likeing guys. It's about loveing women, a whole lot.

Do you know anything about your Mom's childhood? Could she have been abused by a man? Something happened that has turned her off men but that does not necessarily mean she's gay. Sorry that she put some of that on you.

[spazzdog]

bcipam, check out the thread on cycling and gender. Our own 'chelle was most gracious to sign on to TE (and stick around) after we opened a topic based on a story about her that appeared in a magazine.

We're delighted she showed up and more delighted that she has stayed on as part of our "TE family".

Here's the link to the thread: http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=2681&highlight=Transgender