Snow...

[salsabike]

We have it. Three inches tonight. I want to go on record as saying this just isn't funny anymore. Arghh. I hope Greg Nickles is getting right out there with his shovel and clearing our streets.

[Eden]

C'mon the mayor didn't make it snow....

They even bought some salt and are spreading it tonight. The way I see it, unless our weather patterns really change the kind of snow we had two weeks ago is a once every 20 or so year event, so I don't expect the city to be completely prepared or well practiced to deal with it. (and to be honest I don't think it would be a particularly good use of the city's money to be that prepared for such a rare event....) In any case this time it should be gone relatively quickly. Down here at least it should be gone come morning.

[NbyNW]

The Times says it's supposed to rain/melt away by morning. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[salsabike]

Eden, I disagree. There's a middle ground between being underprepared, which the city was, and being overprepared for our climate. It is not responsible to have practices that leave elderly, ill, and poor people trapped in their homes for two weeks. You know, a lot of the people who missed work just don't...get paid--they can't take sick days or leave days. They're just out the money. Not every elderly or ill person has neighbors who can help. It's just dangerous and unnecessary to have the city shut down that long. They can do a better job without prepping like Minneapolis, and they need to do a better job. And it happens more than once every 20 years.

Yes, it'll be gone by morning, this time.

[Biciclista]

well, it wasn't gone, but at least it was tame enough for me to drive up the hill in a car without chains. and once i got on the main road, it was clear.

And had good snow to make snowmen too last night.

and the city of Seattle has discovered SALT!

[SadieKate]

Oh goody. Now Seattle can kill off the vegetation and destroy their concrete bridges Haven't they heard of cinder and plowing? How about mag chloride?

[Biciclista]

as often as we get snow, i hardly think this is going to ruin our vegetation and bridges.

[SadieKate]

Hmm, how many weeks of snow have you already had this winter (and last)? When there are other less corrosive chemicals easily available why risk needing to spend more taxes on road repair and city landscaping? It just seems soooo easy.

Of course, as we all know, once precedence is set, those guvmint habits are incredibly easy to change.

[Biciclista]

not to worry, there's not enough money for this to continue. we were told that salt costs 6x more than sand.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Hmm, how many weeks of snow have you already had this winter (and last)? When there are other less corrosive chemicals easily available why risk needing to spend more taxes on road repair and city landscaping? It just seems soooo easy.



Hey SK, I know, maybe they should scatter chemical foot warmer packets all over the roads to melt the ice! Then they could just sweep them up later. No salt to harm the environment! :D :D ;)

[Biciclista]

or they could do what they already did this winter, allow the snow to get to be 10 inches deep on the road and then throw sand on the top! kind of like a bundt cake.

[SadieKate]

Hey SK, I know, maybe they should scatter chemical foot warmer packets all over the roads to melt the ice! Then they could just sweep them up later. No salt to harm the environment! :D :D ;)


Meanwhile, I use lots of layers of wool and other insulation materials and do the best I can with that.

Ah, yes. But then I didn't imply that hand warmers were the only solution.

Cinder is not damaging and basalt rock can be swept up and re-used. If you'd ever seen (and recognized) the tree damage from salt in a area of the country (the entire west) already under assault from the pine beetle, you may not find it so funny. We're doing a damn fine job of killing off our forests.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Who's saying that anything is the 'only solution'? :confused: There is no only solution to any of this-
not wool, not hand warmers, not cinder, not salt....

There is salt damage here in the East, for sure. (have you seen -or recognized- our Eastern road surfaces? ...if you can call them surfaces)
Over the years highway depts all over the country have tried varying combinations of methods to clear the roads and make them travel safe during the winter....plowing, sanding/cinder/ash, salting, other chemicals of every kind. Or Seattle's recent tactic of not doing much of anything, hoping it would melt quickly.
Every few years another 'better solution' is touted, only to be found later to cause an entirely different set of problems. I do not think the best solution has yet been found. Using just gravel or sand (or cinder?) doesn't work for every ice/snow situation either. Usually over here a combination of ice/snow tactics is used depending on the weather conditions. Salt is used much more sparingly than in the past. Add to this whole mess the state of the economy now, where there is so much less public funding for road and infrastructure maintenance and repair. It's a tough situation across the country.

You don't need to tell me about tree damage from salt and insect plagues...my entomologist daughter did research at Cornell here in NY to find solutions to the Asian Longhorn beetle's vast destruction, also working to solve the mystery of honeybee parasitic die-offs. She used to tell me all about her work. I instilled in her a love of insects and forests by taking her out into the woods myself when she was little, observing spiders and insects, collecting mushrooms, and identifying plants and birds. If you think I am laughing about the destruction of forests, you are barking up the wrong tree.

[SadieKate]

Who's saying that anything is the 'only solution'? :confused: There is no only solution to any of this-
not wool, not hand warmers, not cinder, not salt....

Sorry, Lisa, I didn't see that you intended humor in the hand warmers on the roads statement, just like I don't see any humble discussion in "Meanwhile, I use lots of layers of wool and other insulation materials and do the best I can with that." I truly read it as superior martyrdom based on environmental concern rather than concern for someone's health and safety. I thought Sarabeth shared a product that helped her with this and you criticized it for environmental reasons. Would I use a packet for shoveling snow? Yes, when necessary. I can keep my hands warm skiing and cycling in very cold temps, but shoveling snow can be excruciating. Like many, I've had some frostbite scares and risking permanent damage because of refusal to use a more effective but marginally less environmentally friendly solution isn't an option. That's how I read your statement.

I'm not condoning Seattle's lack of action, but there are plenty of easily obtainable solutions other than salt, so there are equally effective and less environmentally damaging options (unlike plastic bags vs hand/foot warmers :)). And this said living in a community that doesn't plow unless a single storm drops more than 4" at a time, so accumulation can get significant.

So, now that you've clarified your humor and your humility, I'll express mine.;)

I gotta say I feel sorry for the PNW residents who are completely unprepared for living in the cold snowy depths -- and the road, law enforcement and medical personnel who are trying to help everyone. We drove to and back from SLC during these storms and it was dang scary. Stupidly, the better the conditions, the more overconfidant the drivers became. Idjits.

[SadieKate]

By the way, I hope Seattle's budget is providing handwarmers galore to all the law enforcement, utility and road crews.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Sorry, Lisa, I didn't see that you intended humor in the hand warmers on the roads statement, just like I don't see any humble discussion in "Meanwhile, I use lots of layers of wool and other insulation materials and do the best I can with that." I truly read it as superior martyrdom based on environmental concern rather than concern for someone's health and safety. I thought Sarabeth shared a product that helped her with this and you criticized it for environmental reasons. ....That's how I read your statement.

Well, I don't want to argue about it, especially since it's concerning another thread, but since you are quoting me and interpreting my words, then just to clarify myself:
I very clearly stated at the beginning of the post you are referring to (and yet again in my follow up post after that) that my intent was NOT to criticize other peoples' views or choices on the subject, but merely to express my own personal feelings about using chemical hand warmers. If you see my small personal choice of preferring to wear heavy wool socks and do the best I can with that while waiting for a more eco-friendly alternative product to become available as 'superior martyrdom' ( :eek: ) instead of 'humble discussion' ( :confused: )- well that is your interpretation. I did my best to make myself clear, as I said in that thread: "I'm not criticizing or judging others' views or valid reasons behind their decisions. I'm posting my own personal views on the subject as it pertains to my life." I was not telling anyone else what they should or shouldn't do, nor was I compromising anyone's health or safety. (!)
If I post a thread about some product I like and use, and a bunch of people agree that they like it too and a couple of people say why they don't like it or use it themselves- well what's the big deal?

I would be happy to discuss this further with you if you like, but at this point I would invite you to PM me so we can avoid further hijacking this thread. :)

[shootingstar]

In the City of Vancouver, there is no muncipal by-law which requires resident /owner of single-family and semi-detached homes, to shovel the sidewalk in front of their homes and the walkway for post carrier staff.

AFter living in Ontario for 4 decades, I find the lack of simple shovelling in Vancouver area pretty pathetic...and a physically able person can go out and shovel every few hrs. if there is a prolonged snowfall. Many residential areas in Toronto were abit more diligent on snowdigging/snowshoeing...or CHOPPING the sidewalk ice, with ice chopper. I did the latter quite often every winter as a teenager.

And the lack of snowshovelling and snowploughing got progressively worse, the further out one commutes from downtown centre out to the suburban areas...like I do everyday. It is highly noticeable thing that I observe from the commuter bus every early morning.

It is my final work wk. out in the 'burbs, but being forced to walk on the road where there are transport trucks due to large unshovelled banked snow, ..it is not worth my life when this happens.

I also wonder how many children regularily shovel snow nowadays? because there were 6 of us, my parents had us take turns. And no, we never got paid for household chores, not even for this. It's not a terrible thing for teenage children.... oh sorry, we have to tear them away from the tv, cellphone, etc. :p We have to ....give them...a ...chore. (gasp)

[badger]

lol, I only realized there is a whole ton of other forums on this site! I've never seen so many!

As for the lack of snow clearing by-law in Vancouver (I need to confirm that), I need to stand up for us snow-ignorant Vancouverites.

It seems that folks who move from the East coast love to diss us for not having the pizazz to get around snow.

1: we don't get nearly as much snow.
2: the snow we get is completely different from the East. It's wet, sticky, and oftentimes snow will melt, freeze overnight, and we get black ice.
3: why pay $30 for a snow shovel/pusher that you might use 3 times a year?
4: salt is expensive! and not to mention bad for the environment and the car.
5: 90% of people don't have snow tires on the cars because it's just not worth it. For myself, I don't have the extra storage space to store 2 pairs of tires.

That being said, I'm so glad that the snow's gone away. I finally got back on my bike yesterday and I can feel my muscles complaining!

[badger]

I was curious, so I called the Streets people and they did confirm that single family dwellings in Vancouver need not clear the sidewalks of snow/ice, though they are "encouraged" to do so.

HOWEVER, businesses, multi and single family dwellings in downtown must clear the sidewalk. That's in the bylaw.

[Grog]

I was curious, so I called the Streets people and they did confirm that single family dwellings in Vancouver need not clear the sidewalks of snow/ice, though they are "encouraged" to do so.

HOWEVER, businesses, multi and single family dwellings in downtown must clear the sidewalk. That's in the bylaw.

Actually the single-family dwellers have to clean their sidewalks but only if they are downtown. (And if you live in a single-family dwelling downtown you most likely have the $$ to hire someone to do it for you!!). Elsewhere, nobody has to (and, based on my un-scientific counting on the Northwest side of things, about 50% do). As for commercial and multi-housing... I'd say about 60% of them sort of clean... I really wish there was a number to dial to automatically send a warning (and eventually a bill) to the places where they didn't. Gas stations in particular!!

[badger]

Actually the single-family dwellers have to clean their sidewalks but only if they are downtown. (And if you live in a single-family dwelling downtown you most likely have the $$ to hire someone to do it for you!!). Elsewhere, nobody has to (and, based on my un-scientific counting on the Northwest side of things, about 50% do). As for commercial and multi-housing... I'd say about 60% of them sort of clean... I really wish there was a number to dial to automatically send a warning (and eventually a bill) to the places where they didn't. Gas stations in particular!!


I thought I said multi and single family dwellings in downtown need to clear the sidewalk? :confused:

And there actually is a phone number you can call to "report" dangerous side walks. I didn't bother getting the phone number, but they said it's on the website www.vancouver.ca. In June, Vancouver's getting a 311 system where you can call that number for anything and everything to do with Vancouver.

So, if you want to report your shoveling-delinquent neighbour, or report a dangerous pothole on a bike route (like the one I hit and came off my bike) all you have to do is call 311.