Gaming addictions & others

[shootingstar]

Was at a dinner party recently where met a software developer for a gaming software company.

She mentioned one of the employees became addicted to gaming, that the company did have to request a counsellor for intervention. The guy/addict just couldn't tear himself away from a game and started to talk about the present daily life in terms of game's characters.

And well, it shouldn't be odd in the 21st century, but twice in last few weeks, I saw a parent wheeling their child around (big enough to walk, around 4-6 yrs. old) outside. Child had a minature like laptop tucked in front while inside the stroller and manoeuvring the buttons. Probably it was a game? Ok, I'm not a parent but it is strange to see this with the child's fascination but totally disinterested in his/her outside immediate surroundings. Maybe it's the new way of keeping a kid from howling in public.. :rolleyes:

[Tuckervill]

It's hard to make a judgment about a family's proclivities based on one moment in time. Perhaps it was a compromise for the mom to get to the market that he could take his computer. Perhaps he had just received it as a gift. I don't really know what's different between the computer and a little toy car that he might carry along and interact with, instead.

Karen

[Mr. Bloom]

Both of our kids had their share of all the gaming devices available. They're now in their teens and show no proclivity to over indulgence. We were VERY selective about the games they had.

Frankly, I simply view video games as a replacement for what the TV was when I was a kid.

On a funny side note regarding addiction: A co-worker's wife, a very genteel southern baptist woman, recognized that she had an addiction to soap operas when she started praying for the characters in her daily prayers!:eek: She stopped cold turkey and never went back:eek:

[Tuckervill]

That's so funny!

The question with attractions like video games (soap operas) is always "what in your life is so bad that you choose the video game (soap opera) instead?" Parents who worry about their kids watching too much tv should ask themselves why tv is the most exciting thing in their lives, and then do something about that.

Karen

[Veronica]

What I see is parents not interacting with their children. I teach in the 'burbs. My school is 1.6 miles from where I live. I have seen a decrease in basic manners in children. Things that should be learned from the parents. Even my "good" kids are not as good as they use to be. When I first started riding my bike to work my classes would look at it and ask questions about things. With this class I have to cover my bell because my students, even the "good" ones can't resist ringing it. They apparently never learned that if it's not yours, you don't touch it without permission.

Veronica

[Mr. Bloom]

You're right V.

On the bell ringers, is it possible that they're simply very comfortable with you rather than being rude?

[shootingstar]

Parents who worry about their kids watching too much tv should ask themselves why tv is the most exciting thing in their lives, and then do something about that.

It does take a certain amount of energy and patience by parents to limit tv watching. One sister and her husband did actively limit the amount of tv viewing by their kids. They did have other activities --the children loved (and still do, as adults) board and card games, puzzles, musical instrument playing and making things, plus reading and sports. They also did limit purchase of video games and computer games. And how are these children like now: one of them is an engineer and the other is thinking about doing his master's in biochemistry. Their lives have moved well beyond but exposure to video games at their friends' homes probably makes it easier for them to play the odd game here and there.

I grew up in a household where my parents' greatest excuse to limit our tv watching...was not to fix the broken down tv for months. When it did work, we never got much cable station choice nor great quality pics. At least we weren't totally clueless about popular culture at that time --Batman, Flintstones, Avengers, etc. We could not demand our parents to buy a new tv,....even as youngsters, we knew how poor we were. Due to lack of money our activities were more on reading, making things and playing outside. New tv didn't occur until I was around 13 yrs. old. or so. ..before we later could afford the first car for family when I was 15.

Impact of all this delayed "technology" exposure on self: might explain before I lived with my partner, I lived outside of parent's home for over 20 years without tv. (Even now my tv watching seems to be limited to less than 8-10 hrs. / week. or even less during cycling warmer seasons.)

But then got my computer so I wouldn't descend into being an anarchronism. Actually online games have never interested me. But then, board games don't interest me either.

With the video game software developer, we did also discuss about gender preferences in types of video games.

[RoadRaven]

And well, it shouldn't be odd in the 21st century, but twice in last few weeks, I saw a parent wheeling their child around (big enough to walk, around 4-6 yrs. old) outside. Child had a minature like laptop tucked in front while inside the stroller and manoeuvring the buttons. Probably it was a game? Ok, I'm not a parent but it is strange to see this with the child's fascination but totally disinterested in his/her outside immediate surroundings. Maybe it's the new way of keeping a kid from howling in public.. :rolleyes:

I find this very alarming. I teach a child development paper, and also a paper which focuses on the holistic development of infants and toddlers.

Children have plenty of time to access computer technology as they grow older and while there are many things a PC can offer, it can happen later on. There used to be alot of discussion about how "evil/bad" PCs were for children, and much of that has proven to be alarmist nonsense...

HOWEVER...
At this age, children need to be doing lots of looking around to ensure their eyes get practice in long distance focusing... because a laptop is always "busy" visually, children will stay focused on it longer
..... (as opposed to the toy car Tuckville wonders about which the child might fiddle with but look about also).

Also, children learn about the world by interacting with it... by looking, watching, listening... children don't reach 5 and start learning "stuff" then, they are learning from the momnent they are born (and I would argue before they are born as their senses begin to mature - unborn infants can see and hear and their sense of touch is well developed by birth.

[Veronica]

You're right V.

On the bell ringers, is it possible that they're simply very comfortable with you rather than being rude?

No - the first time I made it clear that it was MY bike and not a community toy. This class will also just take things off my desk or read things on my desk.


Veronica

[Veronica]

Also, children learn about the world by interacting with it... by looking, watching, listening... children don't reach 5 and start learning "stuff" then, they are learning from the moment they are born (and I would argue before they are born as their senses begin to mature - unborn infants can see and hear and their sense of touch is well developed by birth.

Our Kindergarten teachers are having a huge issue with their classes this year. One teacher actually had a parent say something like, "I send my kid to school. That's where they are suppose to learn. It's your job to teach them, not mine."

Maybe this is just happening in my little corner of the world. But it does scare me to think about what our future is going to be like.

Veronica

[Mr. Bloom]

No - the first time I made it clear that it was MY bike and not a community toy. This class will also just take things off my desk or read things on my desk.


Veronica

I know you've shared some of your student challenges before. That's unfortunate.:(

[ClockworkOrange]

Moderation in everything I suppose.

Going slightly off topic, it always amuses me when parents will not let their children play with toy guns! So they end up using pieces of Lego or sticks, with the same result.

My nearly 7 year old grandson plays the PS3 and these days, I just cannot win any car games...........grrrrrr. Thankfully he is a good all-rounder, has started reading paperbacks for Ages 10+ years.

Is learning to play the electric guitar and his favourite artists are all the classics Jimi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Deep Purple etc.

It is apparently common these days with some young children when putting them to bed, they have to have a DVD playing!!! :rolleyes:

Clock............or maybe old Crock

[RoadRaven]

Our Kindergarten teachers are having a huge issue with their classes this year. One teacher actually had a parent say something like, "I send my kid to school. That's where they are suppose to learn. It's your job to teach them, not mine."

Maybe this is just happening in my little corner of the world. But it does scare me to think about what our future is going to be like.

Veronica

Kindergarten over here is preschool (3-4 yr olds).
And the new entrant/junior school is the equivilent of American kindergarten classes.

And its not happening only in your corner of the wolrd, V. Its about what people value as "real" learning and unfortunately that tends to be measured in literacy and numeracy tests...


Have you seen the work being done in the Italian municipality of Reggio Emilia? That approach to teaching and learning with /working alongside pre-schoolers has been adapted big-time in New Zealand (the Reggio Emilia approach) with particulalr focus on the project appraoch where preschoolers follow their own interests and agendas and teachers support them in their research and understandings. I wish parents could see how much of this they already do themselves...

And also the work of Emmi Pikler (the Loczi Orphanage in Budapest) whose ideas Magda Gerber adapted and has taken back to Ammerican parents, and now the "Pikler Approach" is making huge impacts on how teachers work with infants in early childhood centres...

If only we could get out of the social paralyisis which seems to dictate what you have seen " that real learning happens at school " and are alarmed about. I'll join you and say 'bah humbug' to that idea!

[RoadRaven]

Going slightly off topic, it always amuses me when parents will not let their children play with toy guns! So they end up using pieces of Lego or sticks, with the same result.

This is a discussion I have with every second-year group I teach (Teaching Degree).
I believe it is important to allow this play, because as you say, it will happen regardless.
Therefore, gun-play should be seen as opportunity.

We can teach children about safety (never point guns/rifles at people, is the rifle cocked, have you broken open your shotgun)
Also, in New Zealand, this is about conservation... we have a high number of introduced species here, so the hunting of deer, possums and rabbits is vital to preserving our native bird-life and our forests. Humans are the only natural predators here.

[lph]

I heartily dislike being pointed at with any toy that looks like or pretends to be a gun. I never forbade my son to play with toy guns, but I didn't give them to him myself, and he was not allowed to point them at me. But that was just expressing my opinions about guns and expecting him to respect it.
Re games - some children do get more easily hooked than others. Like me he has the ability to block the entire world out and concentrate for a long time on one thing, whether it's reading, watching tv or playing a game, and has trouble breaking out of it. So we have to limit his computer use every now and then - but that also applies to reading. Sometimes we have to argue for ages to get him to join us for something outdoors, even though he's been out camping, fishing, skiing, biking, kayaking, rock climbing, you name it, since he was tiny. And he loves it! It's just changing whatever he's doing at the moment he hates...

[Irulan]

Moderation in everything I suppose.

Going slightly off topic, it always amuses me when parents will not let their children play with toy guns! So they end up using pieces of Lego or sticks, with the same result.

Clock............or maybe old Crock

My eldest brother was able to get CO status for the Vietnam war as he never, ever was allowed to handle toys guns. ( the stick and lego thing aside, I suppose as it's true)

[OakLeaf]

Going slightly off topic, it always amuses me when parents will not let their children play with toy guns! So they end up using pieces of Lego or sticks, with the same result.


Depends on how you define "the same result." Probably in the UK you're talking about whether kids grow up aggressive or pacifist.

In the US, what happens is that kids play with "guns" without learning appropriate firearm handling skills. So when they get their hands on a real gun, they're still handling it as though it were a toy. They don't know your most basic things like being aware of their line of fire or keeping their finger out of the trigger guard or being sure it's unloaded. And they wind up shooting someone else or themselves, unintentionally.

Not that I have children, but no way would I let a child of mine play with a toy gun. I would teach h/h to shoot a real one, though.

[vinbek]

I have a 10 year old son and a 13 year old daughter. We try to instill values, respect, integrity, honesty in everything we do. Won't know if its taking until they get older, but many of their friends don't have solid boundaries for what is right and wrong or appropriate. When they were younger and had friends over - I would sit them down with the other parent present and explain the rules at my house - and that they might be different elsewhere, but these are the rules they are following while at my house. I have to do this at school too. I am an elementary school librarian and I try very hard to encourage the kids to read - especially the boys who lose interest in reading. It seems more time is spent with behavioral issues than actual learning issues these days. The students don't want to take responsibility for their actions and the parents don't either. But I am a different generation than most parents with kids my age - I had my first one at 41......Bekki

[wildhawk]

I feel that technology is a vital part of a child’s learning experience in this day and time, but that a balance has to be struck between video and hands on learning and physical activity. I am dismayed that so few parents spend enough time doing physical activities with their children and that kids are spending entirely too much time in cyber activities via the internet. The rise in obesity in children in America is one example of the growing lack of physical activity. I would much rather see families playing outdoor sports together, camping, hiking, biking, etc. I remember when tv took over in my childhood and blame a large part of my problems with obesity on that. We spent hours in front of our old black and white tv - what an addiction! And we did not have game systems and computers then. My DH and I still use rabbit ears for tv reception and eventhough we own an xbox game system we rarely play for very long. As I get older, I value my free time and want to enjoy my many hobbies and time with my DH. I am also concerned about the meteoric rise of text messaging and young people. I am seriously worried about kids losing their speaking, spelling and writing skills. I remember Pastor Billy Graham being asked one time in an interview that if he could change one thing about his life what would that be and he replied, “I would have spent less time watching television!”

[RoadRaven]

In the US, what happens is that kids play with "guns" without learning appropriate firearm handling skills.

YES, this is the key.
We are a hunting family. All (5) of my children grew up with rifles. But all of them knew basic safety before they were 4yrs old (never point at people or houses or cars... always rely on a bolt being open but don't rely on a safety catch... etc)

Even their toy guns were only used to go hunting deer or bears (my daughter placed a ban on hunting for tigers as they are endangered!), or to "play" at target shooting. They knew no war or shoot'em-up games were ok - though that did of course happen sometimes.

This safety awareness was obvious... to the point of two of my children (aged nearly 4 and nearly 5) telling my brother-in-law off because he came into the house with the bolt still in his rifle - bolts have to come out if you are in the house with a rifle. They noticed before he had made it 5 steps inside the door. Even him showing them the magazine and breech were empty wasn't good enough and he had to remove the bolt!!!

Aged now between 20 and 13, my children have good firearms safety awareness, and to date we have had no injuries or hooliganish behaviour.

[snapdragen]

And well, it shouldn't be odd in the 21st century, but twice in last few weeks, I saw a parent wheeling their child around (big enough to walk, around 4-6 yrs. old) outside. Child had a minature like laptop tucked in front while inside the stroller and manoeuvring the buttons. Probably it was a game? Ok, I'm not a parent but it is strange to see this with the child's fascination but totally disinterested in his/her outside immediate surroundings. Maybe it's the new way of keeping a kid from howling in public.. :rolleyes:


Any chance this child was disabled in some way? We have a couple of different schools near my office for the disabled, lots of different wheelchairs/strollers etc.

[Irulan]

Any chance this child was disabled in some way? We have a couple of different schools near my office for the disabled, lots of different wheelchairs/strollers etc.

Nope. At least I doubt it. I was out for a ride this fall, and some folks were wheeling what must have been a healthy looking but bored looking 7 year old(ish) kid watching a DVD.

That being said, it's not all bad. I have a geek child, plays LOTs of video games but does a few other things. He is graduating this May with an Electrical Engineering degree, near the top of his class, with a very good job lined up. I'm sure his interest in games/electronics have something to do with his success.

[shootingstar]

Any chance this child was disabled in some way? We have a couple of different schools near my office for the disabled, lots of different wheelchairs/strollers etc.

It was not readily apparent to me as a pedestrian passing by the parent and kid in stroller. I know what you're asking since I did work at rehabilitation hospital for spinal cord injured adults for a few years ages ago. Beside our facility, was a pediatric rehabilitation hospital for children with various disabilties, cerebral palsy, MS, cystic fibrosis, etc. in addition to spinal cord diseases.

It appeared to me at glance, the child was at least normal in hand function and hand-eye neurolocomotor skills, because child's fingers were moving ...FAST.

I do have a pedestrian interest in this ....as a librarian. I am not a children's nor school librarian but have noticed in the professional literature for librarians, in past 2 years, a niche interest of some public librarians interested in gaming as learning strategy..for information literacy skills and secondly, as another resource to draw in more children and teenagers into the library. The reality is use statistics particularily among teenagers for using their public library, are dropping if the library director doesn't reinvent some of their services/diversify their range of resources. And use statistics affects how the library will be funded in the future.

I am not convinced when people talk about the real learning benefits of video games if those benefits can be applied to alot of video games. It would seem a video gaming software company should hire some staff who have specialized knowledge of adult and child cognitive development and learning.

By the way, the person I spoke with she has: her undergraduate university degree in Chemical Engineering. Then her visual arts degree from a public, well-known art and design college. Her first love is the latter which includes computer animation design. So she is someone equipped with strong analytical skills to write programming, etc. and visual design...but learning skills and cognitive development is probably she is picking up as she goes along if she is paying attention to this.

The companies don't care, as long as these games are truly fun...they are to make money.

There's nothing inherently wrong with some video game playing. Even if there is the occasional mildly violent video game, But for a child, it would seem for the child's long-term benefit, that they have passions/interests aside from video games and computers.

[Veronica]

I'm currently addicted to Fallout 3 - a video game.

A couple days ago I was addicted to Simple Genius.

I'm always addicted to good chocolate and pie. :D


Veronica

[OakLeaf]

I'm old school. I haven't been able to graduate from NetHack and Bejeweled. :rolleyes::cool:

[Tuckervill]

By Malcolm Gladwell, who wrote Blink and Outliers, a review of the book, Everything Bad is Good for You
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/16/050516crbo_books

Addresses the video game issue.

Karen

[LBTC]

With a long spell of time off I have learned (again) that it's a good darned thing we haven't invested in any of the gaming systems!! Skype (the VOIP system) has a game called Jeweller's Adventure (probably a knock off of Oakleaf's Bejewelled). I can't believe how much time I have wasted playing this game!!! Yes, I'd be an addict if I had the games in the house. Much like I'd be 40 pounds heavier if we bought chips all the time.

Hugs & butterflies,
~T~

[Tri Girl]

Our Kindergarten teachers are having a huge issue with their classes this year. One teacher actually had a parent say something like, "I send my kid to school. That's where they are suppose to learn. It's your job to teach them, not mine."

Maybe this is just happening in my little corner of the world. But it does scare me to think about what our future is going to be like.

Veronica

I've had that said to me before. I almost came unglued...

And we've talked about it, but it's not just your little corner of the world. Kids are definitely much bolder than they used to be. I had a cookie on my desk one day (given to me by a child who had a birthday) and I had a student reach for it while demanding that they wanted it. I almost had to slap his little hand away (but my look was all it took). They're not comfortable, they're bold and brazen and do and say things to me that I NEVER would've had the nerve/balls to do when I was a kid. The lines of respect between adults and children have blurred to the point where children feel entitled to interact with me as if we're peers. I don't think so little ones...


And I guess I'm addicted to my laptop now. It's new, so I'm sure it'll wear off, but I spend at least a couple hours a day reading all kinds of things online. At least I'm learing, right? Right?

[salsabike]

By Malcolm Gladwell, who wrote Blink and Outliers, a review of the book, Everything Bad is Good for You
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/05/16/050516crbo_books

Addresses the video game issue.

Karen

Here's the part I found really interesting from this review:

"It doesn’t seem right, of course, that watching “24” or playing a video game could be as important cognitively as reading a book. Isn’t the extraordinary success of the “Harry Potter” novels better news for the culture than the equivalent success of “Grand Theft Auto III”? Johnson’s response is to imagine what cultural critics might have said had video games been invented hundreds of years ago, and only recently had something called the book been marketed aggressively to children:

Reading books chronically understimulates the senses. Unlike the longstanding tradition of gameplaying—which engages the child in a vivid, three-dimensional world filled with moving images and musical sound-scapes, navigated and controlled with complex muscular movements—books are simply a barren string of words on the page. . . .
Books are also tragically isolating. While games have for many years engaged the young in complex social relationships with their peers, building and exploring worlds together, books force the child to sequester him or herself in a quiet space, shut off from interaction with other children. . . .
But perhaps the most dangerous property of these books is the fact that they follow a fixed linear path. You can’t control their narratives in any fashion—you simply sit back and have the story dictated to you. . . . This risks instilling a general passivity in our children, making them feel as though they’re powerless to change their circumstances. Reading is not an active, participatory process; it’s a submissive one."

[lph]

Yep, that is a really good point. Books have an undeserved good reputation compared to video games and tv, and this comes from an avid reader who rarely plays video games.

[teigyr]

But perhaps the most dangerous property of these books is the fact that they follow a fixed linear path. You can’t control their narratives in any fashion—you simply sit back and have the story dictated to you. . . . This risks instilling a general passivity in our children, making them feel as though they’re powerless to change their circumstances. Reading is not an active, participatory process; it’s a submissive one."

See...I think reading inspires creativity and imagination. Maybe it's just me but movies (or games) are never as good as what I see them as in my mind.

It drives me bonkers to see technology used in the place of interaction. I see people pushing strollers and walking dogs all the while talking on their cell phones. I'm not the parental sort but I'd think that time could be better spent bonding with the child? Or the dog?

Of course this is all coming from the person who would be upgrading to play Bejeweled. Nope...my style is more like Zork :D

[sfa]

Hmm. If I had seen the same thing I would have assumed the child was autistic and using an assistive communication device.

My seven year old still rides in a stroller when we're smart enough to remember it in advance. If we don't have it, we end up carrying him, and he's getting really heavy. To anyone who doesn't know him, he appears perfectly normal and I'm sure lots of judgmental people have assumed the worst about us, but I long ago stopped caring what other people think. But he can't/won't walk long distances--low muscle tone combined with no social awareness. The social awareness is one of those things people seem to think means that people with autism are awkward socially or don't talk, but in reality it's a lot more--it means, for example, that he won't know to keep his clothes on in public and will happily strip naked when he's hot or uncomfortable, because wearing clothes is a social construct as much as it is utilitarian. And it also means that if we're going someplace that he's not internally motivated to go to, you have to physically force him to move or else he'll just stop walking when he's no longer interested and will stand perfectly still or lie down in the middle of the sidewalk or parking lot or store aisle. A stroller is just easier.

And you know, you're probably right. Chances are this kid was perfectly normal and was playing a video game. But you don't know this and you don't know what the situation was or why you saw what you saw, and I think it's a bit silly to jump to conclusions when every single person on this board was in her youth a member of a generation that an older generation despaired over. And while chances are you saw a normal if somewhat lazy kid, chances also are that he'll grow up just fine and will do well enough in school and will get a good enough job and will be happy and well adjusted and will take his son to soccer lessons and his daughter to Girl Scouts (when they're not wasting time with whatever the 30-year-in-the-future version of Nintendo is) and will whine about filling out tax forms and will watch too much football on t.v. (or whatever the 30-year-in-the-future version of t.v. is) and will, generally speaking, turn out just fine, just like every other generation that an older generation has despaired over.

Sarah

[Tuckervill]

+1, Sarah.

I carried my middle child around until he was about 7. He was unusually small and I enjoyed carrying him. At the time, I thought he was my last child, so maybe it was more for me than for him! :)

One little slice of time doesn't tell us much about how parents are doing with their children. Heaven knows I'd be in trouble if I were judged and found lacking during that one tantrum in the grocery store!

Karen (it was me, not the kids)

[Eden]

......... and will, generally speaking, turn out just fine, just like every other generation that an older generation has despaired over.

Sarah

I think though that the current generation is not turning out fine.... the rate of obesity especially in children is higher than ever and for the first time adult diseases such as type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure are showing up at alarming rates in children....

[Veronica]

I think we may be going to h@ll in a hand basket.

My comments are always based on what I see day in and day out in my classroom and school.

My class has little respect for others' property. Library books have their bar codes picked at and pulled off. Stickers on the desks to make grouping easier get picked off. Brand new books get nasty things written in them.

Things get left all over the place - very little actually gets put back where it goes.

Kids will saw at the desks with their scissors. These are 5th graders - 10 - 11 year olds.

They don't know how to be a community. This respect for the property of others isn't something I am accustomed to having to teach.

Then there is the disrepect to OTHER people...

Veronica

[Irulan]

I think though that the current generation is not turning out fine.... the rate of obesity especially in children is higher than ever and for the first time adult diseases such as type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure are showing up at alarming rates in children....

Having two kids of the "current generation", I will disagree. Sure there are a lot of kids out there that the media focuses on: fat, dull, self centered and glued to their playstations, but there are a lot of really great kids out there that no one pays attention to.

My sons are 19 & 22.
Their peers are getting degrees in international relations with a minor in Arabic, philosophy, bioscience, engineering and other sciences. They have heated philosophical and political debates that go on until 4 in the morning. They don't do drugs. They volunteer in the community, from Scouts to Ski Patrol and the Food Bank. They are all pulling 3.+ at their respective high schools and universities. They are interested in politics, and were thrilled to be able to vote in the most recent election.

Sure they like to play WOW for hours on end at times. But I see what these kids are doing, and I have a lot of hope.

[Veronica]

Your kids aren't the current generation Irulan. :) Your kids are young adults. They are the kids I taught ten years ago- widely different from today's ten year olds.

Veronica

[shootingstar]

Unless we have had real classroom teaching experience of several hrs. per day per week for several years, where our primary role was teaching children under ages 18 or age of consent, it IS very presumptous for many of us to understand styles of children's learning and behavioural patterns while in a structured classroom setting with their peers.

I have several long-term friends who are teachers at the primary and high school level. And they have had their full-time careers for over last 15 years by teaching in several different schools.

My personal thoughts are:

*Some video games are better than others for creative problem solving, interaction, etc. (Let's not overjustify videogames.) Video games do not necessarily teach one to read or write, there are some games that do having these specific learning outcomes. But there is no requirement in video game design.

Reading, criticized as non-interactive and passive vs. videos: Of course reading appears to be non-interactive. BUT please remember that reading, particular reading of any materials with acceptable grammer and stylistic logic, develops a DIFFERENT set of skills: how to spell words correctly, seeing and undertanding grammar, syntax, organization of persuasive written style, understanding how different writing styles are adjusted to a person's reading comprehension level/type of audience.

Have we lost this very basic fact what reading a book/document means in terms of improving our reading and written fluency?

We cannot compare playing video games as the same thing as reading..or writing. The benefits are quite different.


By the way, I do agree that reading does require creative thinking, but in a totally different way. It allows....uninterupted time to reflect and absorb information or solve a problem. It allows a user to be non-linear...a reader can jump around in a book,...and go to the final chapter. :D

[Tuckervill]

We cannot compare playing video games as the same thing as reading..or writing. The benefits are quite different.

And of equal value.

That's all I'm going to say about that. :)

Karen

[Crankin]

I don't play video games because I don't have the eye hand coordination to do so. Of course, I don't play board games either, except maybe Trivial Pursuit. But, I think I can comment on "kids today" and the idea of books vs. video games.
I disagree with the fact that you are not getting any cognitive stimulation while reading. Yes, it is a solitary pastime, but there is plenty of research that shows how (kids and maybe adults) you develop more neural connections while reading. Please don't ask me to cite studies now, but I read a lot of this research about 10 years ago. I think about how much knowledge I gained from reading! Both of my kids, too. My husband, who is very smart, doesn't read much, except magazines and newspapers. Sometimes he has no clue what the rest of us are talking about.
I am not against video games, but I am against too much of anything. I let my kids play violent games on the computer... but I knew that I had to restrict the youngest one a bit because he has an obsessive personality with this stuff. But, again, he also read, played outside, and did a lot of creative stuff.
I found that most parents had no idea how to establish structure in their kid's lives. There were no expectations. I started teaching in 1976 and quit in 2007... there were always parents who had no clue and those were great. I guess it did get worse over the years, but that was why my last job was in a district that stressed social and emotional learning as much as academics. It was assumed that we had to teach this and our daily meetings and activities around this gave some of the kids their only way to learn appropriate social and emotional skills. And they all had to do community service. It was not easy and many teachers fought this, but I still think ALL kids benefited, even the ones from super families.
Irulan, your kids sound a lot like mine! Even my son who is in the military is extremely well read and has a wide variety of interests. But, this started when he was little, when most parents don't have a clue.

[salsabike]

If you read the whole article, you will see that the quote about reading was partially tongue in cheek. He was using it to make a point, and clearly did not mean it to be taken literally.

[Crankin]

I just saw a thing about this book, Proust and the Squid: The Story and Science of the Reading Brain by Maryanne Wolf. She is a professor at Tufts Child Development Center. It discussed how reading improves the brain and compares it to the effects of technology on the brain.

[shootingstar]

If you read the whole article, you will see that the quote about reading was partially tongue in cheek. He was using it to make a point, and clearly did not mean it to be taken literally.

Salsa: I simply read your quote excerpt for the original text ....during my lunch hr. break. I didn't have time to click around and read the entire article. Do not take my comments above personally. You would have the best interests of children in mind since you have been a school counsellor.

[OakLeaf]

I just saw a thing about this book, Proust and the Squid: The Story and Science of the Reading Brain by Maryanne Wolf. She is a professor at Tufts Child Development Center. It discussed how reading improves the brain and compares it to the effects of technology on the brain.

I started that book in the fall and never got around to finishing it... I'll have to pick it up again as soon as I'm done with the novel I'm reading now.

Another fascinating book - less scientific I thought, but interesting nonetheless, and the author is a surgeon so not entirely lacking in scientific qualifications - was The Alphabet versus the Goddess by Leonard Shlain. He discusses how written language causes the brain to conform to literally linear, black-and-white thinking, and how the abstractions inherent in alphabetic writing take that to an even greater level.

This conversation reminds me a bit of the news stories a few years back about how the drug MDMA causes "brain damage." They didn't bother to mention that the brain changes brought about by that drug are identical to those caused by pharmaceutical anti-depressants. :rolleyes:

The bottom line is that the brain is a dynamic organ, especially in childhood. Everything children do changes their brains; everything they do repetitively shapes the structure of how their brains will function in the future. I don't think it's possible to make value judgments beyond saying that a sedentary lifestyle is not good for anyone. As long as you're only spending a couple of hours a day alone in that darkened room, who's to say that a book is better than an online message board is better than a video game?


ETA: there's a great irony here, because of course computer programming, including video game programming, is about as linear and black-and-white as it gets. And yet most of today's game designers were yesterday's gamers.

[lph]

Oakleaf, love your sig ;)

This is a fascinating discussion and I'm soaking it up. Will look for both those last books. I'll pipe up with my personal experience: I love reading, and I read a lot of fantasy and sci fi for relaxation. In addition to more challenging stuff. As a kid and teenager I could read for hours on end (academic family that approved greatly of reading) and could easily miss a nights sleep. Today I read a lot less, I need my sleep much more and just don't have the time. Besides, I'm used to being more active now so my body just plain protests against sitting still that long. I've tried playing video games, and have sat up until 2 am playing Myst. It was much of the same experience as reading fantasy books, getting lost in a different world, but the effects are much stronger and I can feel how easy it would be for me to get really, really addicted. I don't feel there's a big value difference between reading for fun and relaxation and playing similar video games for the same reason, but games are more addicting, especially if you have that type of personality. My son does, and I have to pry his latest book out of his fingers to get him to eat breakfast without spilling porridge everywhere.

There are many excellent books out there that can change or challenge your views, inspire you and teach you stuff you didn't know. I know there are some truly brilliant games out there too, but there's a lot of stuff, both books and games, and movies for that matter, that are mostly "just" entertainment. Entertainment and relaxation isn't a bad thing, it's just a problem if you have trouble fitting the meaningful and necessary things into your life as well, imo.

I encourage my son to play games with his friends when they're here, I try to discourage him from playing the same, repetitive games over and over he plays alone when he's bored.

[Veronica]

It's like circle surfing - going around to all the sites you read over and over to see if there is anything new.

My big worries about video games/television and kids:

I have students who are reading 2 - 3 grades below grade level. They never read at home, but they play video games/watch tv for hours. I know this from talking with them and their parents. The parents will restrict the activities for awhile, but they won't take that time to read with their kids.

Lack of parental involvement - I can't believe some of the games/shows/movies my students are allowed to watch or play. I would feel differently about it if the parents were then discussing the inappropriate things in the kids see with the kids, but they don't. I do a few read alouds that are a little on the edge in my classroom, partly so I can discuss these things with my kids because the parents aren't stepping up to the plate and doing it.

I don't know what parents are doing with their children these days. It baffles me. And I don't want you to think I have 30 hoodlums in my class. I have 26 kids who are typical - they make mistakes, they shock me with their generous and caring natures, some of them are diagnosed ADD, a couple are on serious meds. They work hard and they get lazy. They mess up and they have remorse. They drive me crazy; they make me smile.

The other four make me question daily why I am still teaching. These 4 have the ability to bring about ten of the others down to their level and influence them in ways that scare me. These 4 don't show remorse. They are bullies, instigators, defacers of property. They are well on their way to being hoodlums and thugs. And they encourage that behavior in too many of the other kids.

I've always thought it was the parents job to instill community values into their children. But I often wonder if that notion is old fashioned, pie in the sky and there are no community values anymore.

Veronica

[OakLeaf]

Oakleaf, love your sig ;)

I wish I could claim credit for it. It's from a NY Philharmonic pre-concert talk we went to this fall, where the lecturer was discussing Mozart's A Major Violin Concerto. The line cracked up the whole audience, and I knew I'd found a new sig line. ;)

[Crankin]

Veronica, I think your 4/30 hoodlums was pretty much par for the course in every classroom I had! The way you described the other 26 made me cry. I guess inside, I will always be a teacher.
And I also read many things to my kids that were "on the edge" because I knew their parents didn't discuss anything important with them. I would preface it by saying,"maturity alert." And then I would tell them that since I was their teacher they would have to "get over it" and not be embarrassed by frank discussions of human relationships because this is how we learn stuff. I also would say that after having 2 sons, there wasn't anything that would shock me.
And yes, I think that mostly there is very little sense of community left, unless one intentionally sets out to build it. That is why we moved back east. I was getting more and more discouraged with the transient nature of the community in AZ. Not that I didn't have a great life, good job, nice house, friends, etc, but something always felt like it was missing. Now I know what.

[Irulan]

Your kids aren't the current generation Irulan. :) Your kids are young adults. They are the kids I taught ten years ago- widely different from today's ten year olds.

Veronica

Maybe so, maybe not. They were all pretty obnoxious ten year old.

[uforgot]

I'm a high school math teacher and also a huge fan of the Zelda games.

1. When my trig classes start proving identities, I tell them it's like playing Zelda, problem solving! When they "get" the identity, it's like finding the key to a chest or room. You know, for me, they are the same. I have students who are zelda/RPG fans also, and they tend to be good problem solvers. (We also borrow each others games and recap/help. Talk about opening communication with the students!) Now fighting/racing games? yuk.

2. I have two sons who are dyslexic. I took them to a special reading center when they were in elementary school. I was told to go ahead and let them play side scrolling games as they scroll from left to right. Writing and reading from left to right is a skill that had to be taught to them, and those games just reinforced it. As it turns out, my sons didn't really care for video games like their friends did. They would play half an hour a day tops, and we usually all played together, watching taking turns. It really was a family thing for us.

3. Today's high schoolers are a ME generation. They are able to have what they want, go where they want, be involved in whatever they want and the parents make it happen. They've really never had to struggle for anything and neither did their parents. (my generation). I think Veronica nailed it when she indicated that the lines between adults and kids are blurred. They are. I see kids who really "run" their families, or their families revolve around the kids. Some of the Christmas gifts they received were staggering. I wish I had a nickel for every iphone that belonged to a student in my school. I love my students, most are terrific, but they really don't understand boundaries very well and they have never had to work for anything. Oh, they have jobs, but because they want them to pay for a car or somethng they really don't "need", not because they have to. Their parents also bail them out of any situation. They aren't allowed to struggle or fail. I don't know the answer.

My parents went through the depression and I wasn't handed anything. I, in turn, wanted my kids to have what I didn't. It's too late, but I wonder, did I give them too much? Did I do too much for them? Should I have allowed them to fail more? Is this just getting worse and worse as each generation appears? Even the kids whose parents are involved with them are startled when I ask them not to touch my bike, or my stereo, or no, they can't use my computer. (Students aren't allowed on teacher computers) I ask nice, they respond nicely but are truly startled that it isn't all there for them to touch and use.

By the way, my hat is off to you elementary teachers. I don't know how you do it!

Boy did I ramble. Sorry...

[Tuckervill]

Interesting idea, that can be applied to video games, as well. Written by a friend of mine who is an economist.


Economics of Restricting TV Watching of Children
Pam Sorooshian
January 2005

Conclusion: Restricting tv-watching time increases the marginal utility of tv watching and causes children to become extremely strongly attracted to it and to value tv-watching above other, nonrestricted, activities.

"Utility" is a word used by economists to mean the pleasure, satisfaction, usefulness, or whatever other value a person gets from a product or service. Gaining utility is the reason why a person buys a product or engages in an activity. Just like businesses make decisions in such a way as to maximize total profits, individuals make decisions in such a way as to maximize their "total utility." Economists view people as "utility-maximizing" agents. Through an economist's eyes, we're all going through our lives making constant comparisons — choosing minute-by-minute what to do, what to eat, what to buy, what to wear, what to say, and everything else, and every time we choose, we do it so as to increase our total utility as much as possible. Imagine you are standing in an ice cream store and choosing a flavor — what an economist sees is that your brain is rapidly going through all the choices, figuring out how much utility you'd gain from a scoop of strawberry versus a scoop of rocky road and so on, and then picking the one that gives you the most utility. (Notice that utility has to be predicted — we could be wrong in our pick, but we do our best given the information we have. I could decide that strawberry is my pick for today — that's the flavor that I prefer right now — the one that will give me the most utility. And then I might discover, to my dismay, that it doesn't live up to my expectations and I might WISH I could change my mind. It happens. So, our choices are actually based on our "expected" utility gains.)

Okay — there is a lot more I could say about "utility" and if you have objections to this way of seeing the world, we can talk about them. But, I'll leave that for later, and, after introducing one more idea, I'll move on to what this has to do with children and television-watching restrictions.

First, imagine you're in that ice cream shop and you've bought that strawberry cone because it had a high utility value to you. You eat it up and it is delicious and you compute the expected utility of ANOTHER ice cream cone and decide to buy one. You eat it. YUM. Now you compute the expected utility of a third ice cream cone. So — what do you think? Is the 2nd ice cream cone going to give you as much ADDITIONAL utility as the 1st did? Will the 3rd one be expected to add as much to your total utility as the 1st or 2nd ones did? What's going to happen as you eat more ice cream cones? After you've had one, the expected utility of the next is lower than the expected utility was for the first. And after you've had two, the expected utility for the third will be lower than the expected utility for the second one was. They still might have value to you, they still give you utility, just not as much extra utility.

The "extra" utility you get from having "one more" of something, is called "marginal utility."
And - marginal utility goes DOWN as you have more and more of the same thing.

EVEN if you chose different flavors for each of your ice cream cones, you'd have chosen the highest-utility flavor first and so subsequent cones would provide lower and lower marginal utility.

This way of looking at choices is applicable to almost everything we do.

What's your favorite thing to do? Watch movies? Read a book? Garden? Go to Disneyland? Why don't you just do THAT all the time and nothing else? I mean — if it is your favorite, then doesn't IT give you higher utility than anything else. Why do you ever stop doing it?

The answer is that as you do more and more of something, the marginal utility of doing even more of it, goes down. As its marginal utility goes down, other things start to look better and better.

But — when you restrict an activity, you keep the person at the point where the marginal utility is really high.

When you only allow a limited amount of tv, then the marginal utility of a little more tv is high and EVERY other option looks like a poor one, comparatively. Watching more tv becomes the focus of the person's thinking, since the marginal utility is so high. Relax the constraints and, after a period of adjustment and experimentation to determine accurate marginal utilities, the focus on tv will disappear and it will become just another option.