Are you as appalled as I am?

[roadie gal]

... by those Lexus, Mercedes and BMW commercials that want you to give a car as a Christmas gift?

I thought they were in bad taste a few years ago when the economy was good, but this year I'm just appalled. The world's economy is crashing. People are being tossed out of their homes. They're losing jobs. And we should give a car as a gift.

feh

[AllezGirl]

Yes!

[7rider]

I think they're funny. But then, I've always been amused by the absurd.

[Eden]

For a few years I worked for a company that sold a building product that pretty much only the very wealthy could afford. I found the whole thing to be pretty appalling - very excessive and often tasteless. I'm back at a non-profit and much happier these days. I honestly didn't like doing a job that had zero meaning and benefited pretty much no one.

[rocknrollgirl]

I felt really good for a second, when I thought it was about a Big Wheel....

[kjay]

No, I'm not appalled at all. There will always be people richer than I and people poorer than I. There is something for everyone, even nothing if that applies.

[Mr. Bloom]

I agree with kjay.

I mean this constructively, but this is prejudice. You have no idea what the owners of those cars do or give in support of those in need. (Yes, I own a Lexus and a Mercedes, so you've made it personal to me;) and you don't know me).

[Zen]

there are other things I find appalling as well:rolleyes:

but the one that really bugs me goes something like-


I want it all,
I want it all,
And I want it now!

I think its for big screen TV's or something

[smilingcat]

gold digging (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/3527803/Recession-When-the-money-goes-so-does-the-toxic-wife.html)

my partner and I went to a wedding years and years ago. The wife turned out to be more than a gold digging. The couple got divorced less than a year later. Some of the stuff we heard were just beyond words.

The woman did find a rich guy. He is now in his 70's and the woman has to be in her late 30's...

yeah. And I was going to volunteer at a shelter today. They said thank you but we have enough volunteers. I found out about it yesterday. :( Well I'll be check in with the group for the xmas help.

[Zen]

And I was going to volunteer at a shelter today. They said thank you but we have enough volunteers. I found out about it yesterday. :( Well I'll be check in with the group for the xmas help.
They can always use donation , can't they?
I know the food banks are having terrible shortages and there are people at food banks who never thought they would need that kind of assistance

[smilingcat]

Hi Zen,

Actually we do have cases of food to be donated to food bank. My partner is looking for local one here in Hermosa Beach and not in downtown LosAngeles.

We went to Costco and used our coupons and bought things cheap. I was hoping to help out on the cooking side. I still have my serv-safe certification (its restaurant related for cooks...) from NSF. and I still have my knife bag...

I ended up playing phone tag with the shelter. Last message was "thank you for your interest but we have all the volunteers needed".

Oh well...

[Crankin]

I have to agree with Mr. Silver. Why do you think that someone who can afford to buy a car as a gift is evil? You don't know what kind of people they really are! Just because someone has money doesn't mean they are bad. Sure, over consumption is not good, but to each her own. I worked my *** off for 30 years and i don't apologize for anything I buy.
Yes, this is personal. I have a BMW that is 5 years old and is the best car I've ever had.
And, a lot of people with the money to buy one of those cars might cringe to find out how much some of us spend on bikes and assorted cycling shwag.

[Fujichants]

I have to agree with Mr. Silver. Why do you think that someone who can afford to buy a car as a gift is evil?

I don't see anywhere in Roadie Gal's comment where she even implies that people who can afford to buy cars as a gift are evil...

[smilingcat]

Hi Crankin,

I think what people meant here is that flaunting the wealth was more of the issue. Issue isn't about being able to afford it or not. Or you have been successful in making money.

The ad roadie gal is talking about is bit tasteless in my opinion. Think of the people who can't afford such a car. How does it feel to them? to watch that ad. Yes life is unfair but I try to be sympthetic to those less fortunate.

peace to all,
smilingcat

[shootingstar]

I interpreted roadiegal's observation and the ad, as just an ill-timed PR/marketing campaign by the car company itself, Lexus, etc. during this economic year.

Granted they do have make money as a firm, but Lexus could do better with an ad this year with a combined message....like a Lexus happy owner that is stuffing their whole family/neighbours into the car in a blazing snowstorm.

It's all about building effective subconscious good branding from a business sense and as a smart corporate member of the bigger community.

[Crankin]

There are a lot of ads I think are stupid, but they are just that: stupid. There are also products I wouldn't buy, but I don't care if they are advertised... for example, I don't think we need most of the technology stuff that's around, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for it. It's all business.
I know that when I couldn't afford some of the things I can have now, I did not care if they were on TV.
It's more the implied prejudice that if you have a higher income it's bad.
OK, off of my soapbox.

[lph]

This is an interesting discussion, though I haven't seen the commercial. I admit to having the same prejudices - "haven't they got anything better to do with all that money??! :rolleyes: but it's not a very well-founded idea on my part. I do feel that there is a moral limit to how much consumerism I find acceptable, that's an ecological question as well, but if you have a lot of money, it is really your own business how you spend it. Giving a good, sound car that will run for years, to somebody who really needs it, if you can afford it, is a brilliant gift when I think of it.

Anyhoo. What gets my goat around Christmas-time are the ads trying to get men to buy really expensive jewelry for their wives and playing on their bad conscience. Even the discreet kind - "Don't you think she finally deserves ... this?", which implies that the only two possible answers are "yes" or "no". *puke*

[Bruno28]

I think this thread displays prejudice towards advertising executives.

Don't you realise how sensitive they are? You can't just go around hurting people's feelings like that.

[violette]

Being from Canada, we haven't hit bottom yet, but I see the USA in the news every day. Come on everyone, it's almost christmas...let's not get upset over something we can't control. Everyone has their opinion, let's respect that and stop this thread. The only thing it creates is bitterness!!! If you have your family and health, money can't take that away.:o

[Velobambina]

I don't care what other people buy because I figure that if you earned the $$, you can spend it however you like, so long as it doesn't hurt other folks.

I do feel sorry for the people who feel the need to buy expensive stuff just to try to impress others. They will never fill that hole, unfortunately, and will never have enough. I know a lot of these kind of folks.

I was part of the working poor during my HS years through early adulthood, so I understand how these ads have the potential to offend. But you know what, even if I HAD that kind of money, I wouldn't want an expensive car for a gift. I think driving a economical, practical, modest car is "cool."

This falls under the category of each to his/her own.

I get more offended by ads that marginalize/degrade women and/or promote unrealistic role models for females (i.e., super skinny, airbrushed, etc).

[Irulan]

I"m more offended by the current spate of still continuing payday cash ads, credit card ads, refinance your mortgage ads and other ads that to me appear be part of our current problem.

[roadie gal]

I agree with kjay.

I mean this constructively, but this is prejudice. You have no idea what the owners of those cars do or give in support of those in need. (Yes, I own a Lexus and a Mercedes, so you've made it personal to me;) and you don't know me).

I was in no way speaking about the people who can buy the cars. Get one if you can afford it. Mazel Tov! My last bike cost more than some cars... I'm appalled about the inappropriate nature of an ad that suggests you should give a car, especially a very expensive one, as a gift during this time that is so difficult for so many. Volvo and some of the other car makers have toned down their ads this year to highlight their sales rather than to suggest the car should be a gift. I have no problem with that.

[maillotpois]

I think this thread displays prejudice towards advertising executives.

Don't you realise how sensitive they are? You can't just go around hurting people's feelings like that.


SNORT!

:D:D:D

[Zen]

I think this thread displays prejudice towards advertising executives.

Don't you realise how sensitive they are? You can't just go around hurting people's feelings like that.

I've been watching that show "Mad Men".
Those guys drink a lot...;):D

[TxDoc]

No I'm not appalled.
I have both given and received nice cars as Christmas gifts before, and so the ad did not bother me at all. I would not buy one this year, but I have no problem with whoever does.
:)

[bmccasland]

I'm more amused about the seasonal recycled commercials. I'm waiting for the cologne ad that's now about 20 years old - the couple riding the horse in the snow. And then there's the Frosty the Snowman take-off of a men's electric shaver.

Car commercials have always been around for various reasons. Heard on the radio this morning that SUV sales are going back up now that the price of gas has come down again.

[Mr. Bloom]

Volvo and some of the other car makers have toned down their ads this year to highlight their sales rather than to suggest the car should be a gift. I have no problem with that.

We're in agreement then.;)

For the record: My Lexus is old and worth less than my Madone(I buy quality used and drive until the wheels fall off). The Mercedes is vintage and an investment that is appreciating 10%/year...not bad these days:). New cars stink as an investment...that's why they have to advertise so much:rolleyes:

I'm personally not into conspicuous consumption either...but to each their own. I'm not better for driving new vs. used or high end vs. low end - but I am better off by buying quality for less.

I teach our kids exactly what kjay says - unless your name is Bill Gates or "Sultan of Brunei", then someone will have more than you... It's amazing how unpretentious they are even though we live in an area that is considered affluent.

Thanks for the stimulating topic:)

[BikeDutchess]

Here is what is really appalling to me: Wal-Mart worker dies after shoppers knock him down (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081128/ap_on_re_us/wal_mart_death).


... shortly after the store's 5 a.m. opening time, shoppers "physically broke down the doors, knocking (the worker) to the ground."
... before the store was closed, eager shoppers streamed past emergency crews as they worked furiously to save the worker's life.

[Pax]

I dislike those commercials as well.

More than that I am troubled by the "I've got mine, so screw you" mentality that is becoming more visible in our society. Where compassion is viewed as weakness, where offering a helping hand is confused as "enabling" by a pop psychology drenched population. I'm striving diligently to continue being weak and enabling.

[Blueberry]

Here is what is really appalling to me: Wal-Mart worker dies after shoppers knock him down (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081128/ap_on_re_us/wal_mart_death).

I think this might be the one thing we can *all* agree on.

And no, I just ignore the commercials, as I do all commercials. I buy what I need and what I really want, and pay no attention to what advertisers tell me I should buy. If my DH needed a new car, and I could get him one for a holiday present, I would. I drive an 8 year old VW most of the time (we have a newer element for road trips) and his car (which is now driven less than 2k a year because of biking) is a 10 year old volvo. My VW was a present (graduation) and is the only one in the fleet that was purchased new.

CA

[Tri Girl]

My DH gets irritated by the jewelry commercials that imply that the only way to say "I love you" is with diamonds. Every kiss begins with K...
I laugh at the commercials and tell him that real love is shown by doing the laundry, mopping the floor, or cleaning the toilet- heck I'd love it far more than a diamond. He can save some money on diamonds because diamonds don't help with the chores. :p




And the Wal-Mart story is so incredibly sad. People can be so stupid and selfish, and for what? a good deal on a tv or game. Tragic. :(

From the article:
"Shoppers stepped over the man on the ground and streamed into the store. When told to leave, they complained that they had been in line since Thursday morning."

BFD so you've been in line since Thursday morning. A man died for crying out loud. Go somewhere else for your Christmas shopping. We (as a society) have really become so insensitive to life, haven't we?
Sorry- I'm stepping down off my soap box before I say too much about this incident and cause problems.

[Biciclista]

commercials? Just don't turn on your television.

My two best buddies just sent me the nicest presents ever.
A little tiny button featuring the president elect
two shopping bags (ORANGE) that fold up into a peach sized little holder..
and my best bday present of all?
A letter from a cousin who lives far far far away..

Cars don't buy you love.

[Grog]

One may think that "if you've earned your money than you can spend it however you like." I won't condemn my fellow humans for consuming goods, because I don't believe can throw the first stone; I certainly can't. (Having just ordered lots of luxurious wool clothing items from TE!) On the other hand, I definitely see that consumption is not a private matter at all. It has repercussions for everyone, but generally it's the poor that pay the price in terms of working conditions, environmental degradation, etc.

Air travel for example is something only few people on this planet can afford, yet everyone pays the environmental costs of it (huge amounts of pollution). The same is true for cars, although they are more widely distributed than air travel. To create most of the "stuff" that rich societies consume (electronics, cheap furniture, clothing, and the rest), it takes quite a bit of work performed by poor people in extremely toxic and often repressive environments in developing countries (so that we can pay low prices for them, as exemplified by the Wal-Mart trample). And that's not counting what happens to all that "stuff" when it becomes garbage in developed countries.

I don't have solutions or even suggestions at the moment, I just thought I'd share what's on my mind. Pretty depressing, uh?

[Zen]

Well said, Grog.

Tri-Girl, I just saw that story on TV. Disgusting. The people were still rushing in, jostling the EMT's as they were performing first aid.
I hope this will be the end of Wal-Marts Black Friday Frenzy openings, it happens every year but never before with a death.

[Biciclista]

yeah, Grog, I agree. We have huge footprints, and we're soiling the planet with them.

[Mr. Bloom]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...:eek:are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods? I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

[Zen]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...:eek:are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods? yes. Do you have a reciprocating saw? I need to borrow one.

I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.
sense...

[Eden]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...:eek:are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods? I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

hmmmm..... Just yesterday I listened to yet another documentary piece on the working conditions in China (on NPR).... Dangerous and abusive companies in developing nations sound more than less like the exception.... Sure China has a lot of laws meant to protect workers, but pretty much no enforcement, so they are all just ignored.

Said company I worked at for a short time imported most of its product from China. I saw lots of pictures of working conditions - pretty primitive.... The owners big claim to generosity was buying the guys at one factory sun hats... Forget the fact that many wore shorts and were shirt and/or shoeless... The owner actually once bragged about working some of the guys over there for two days straight and into the wee hours of the morning.... and I'm sure none of the workers got any overtime.... This guy practiced evil ignorance extremely well..... He also said "don't tell me that" when I told him that you cannot dispose of computer monitors in the regular trash... and proclaimed that well the smoke goes up the chimney when I told him burning scraps of plywood gives off toxic fumes... (we had a fireplace in the office...) Other people meant nothing to him. The sad thing is that we have many people in this country (in the world for that matter) who are like him.

I'm not going to put all the burden on the consumer.... it's nearly impossible to avoid buying things from China too... you may not even know it if the parts are made there, but assembled elsewhere. Some things are difficult to buy at all, as they not made elsewhere anymore. I guess I wish collectively the world could show just a little more outrage at the treatment of its fellows, rather than demanding everything be as cheap as possible and perpetuating the abuse....

I'm also not going to take any of the burden away from the retailers.... I watched another documentary about clothing workers in China. I think in the end it cost about $4 in labor to produce a pair of jeans, when shipping and other costs of business were factored in the cost went up to maybe $9ish per pair and they were being sold for $60..... I've yet to be convinced that some retailers couldn't survive on slightly smaller profit margins and pay their workers better... (I know it doesn't work this way for all retailers - places that have to deal with middle men, distributors, and such - like bike shops... they get the costs passed onto them and have to make a profit to stay in business. I'm talking about those middle men and other places that directly sell what they have produced)

[Grog]

Well, always being one to offer a controversial perspective...:eek:are you suggesting that hard working people in poorer countries would be better off if we didn't employ them by purchasing their inexpensive goods?

It would be great if solutions to the world's complex problems were so easy! What I am certainly suggesting is that increased consumption is not improving anyone's condition beyond perhaps the immediate short term, not even for those who consume the goods. As much as I hate sounding like an old, bearded ideologue (I don't have a beard), there are still a lot of good times to be had by thinking about the relationship between the Master and the Slave, and how the Master is in fact enslaved.*


I suppose that while I acknowledge the existence of bad conditions, it's my sense that it's now the exception rather than the rule.

At the very minimum, unless you consider living in a perpetual cloud of thick, debilitating smoke to be a good condition, no, the bad conditions are far from being the exception. I will skip the details about authoritarian regimes precluding freedom of speech, freedom of association, and worker's rights, or anyone's rights, for that matter.

North American or European countries will not challenge the situation, as they increasingly see how the giant dragon could crush them if it cared to sit down. Individual outsiders - you and me - can try, but taking pictures or talking to people who know something about what's doing on (middle managers?) is difficult and dangerous. Ironically, as the current economic difficulties in China show, this is another great example of Master-Slave role ambiguities...

* Nobody cares to read Hegel anymore, but this page offers the gist of it: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080311104725AA2hpOZ

Edited to Add: There are also poor people in the United States. There sure are lots in Canada. They also bear most of the weight of pollution and stuff like that. Geez, there are so many problems and so few easy solutions.

[smilingcat]

* Nobody cares to read Hegel anymore, but this page offers the gist of it: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080311104725AA2hpOZ



Another thing on my reading list... :rolleyes:

It really is sad about our culture and our myopic view of the world.


"out of sight out of mind"

I don't care to discuss some of the points brought up here 'casue afterall this is cycling web site. We can go over to a political web site like randi show (http://forums.therandirhodesshow.com/) to talk more about it. There, we talk about politics (obviously), we talk about religion, economy, environment, LGBT issues... in separate categories. Yes its mostly liberals but there are some prominent conservatives there too. The rule there is if you state a fact, you have to post your source of your fact. If it's hannady, Limbough that's fine but you have to say where you got your source. My handle there is the same as here. And I haven't seen too many flaming there.

[Mr. Bloom]

Dangerous and abusive companies in developing nations sound more than less like the exception....

But is it really the rule? We say crime is rampant, but only 2% of the population has a felonious record...but crime seems the rule in some places.


The owner actually once bragged about working some of the guys over there for two days straight and into the wee hours of the morning....


It honestly sounds like my minimum wage job at Mr. Gatti's Pizza at the Eastwood Mall in Birmingham Alabama in 1979.

I respect that all of you feel sincere in your concern on this issue...I really do. But back to my original question...would these people be better off (if so, how???)if they had no work at all and had to fend for themselves or starve?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

But back to my original question...would these people be better off (if so, how???)if they had no work at all and had to fend for themselves or starve?

Interestingly, the very same argument was used to discourage the idea of freeing black slaves during the 1800's here in America. That they were 'better off' working as slaves and would not be able to fend for themselves and would therefore starve without their kind masters 'providing' for them.

No, these low wage workers would not be better off if they were starving and had no work at all.
But they WOULD be better off if their working conditions and hours were improved and they were paid/treated more fairly, as other workers are treated in other parts of the world. The truth is their working conditions and pay could be vastly improved and still leave plenty of room for all the business owners and middle men, all the way to the consumers, to profit. I would much rather pay 30-60% more for an item if I could be sure it was produced under decent and fair working conditions.

Unfortunately, if labor/humanitarian laws are not being enforced, then people in power usually try to get away with as much as they possibly can at the expense of those under them who are powerless.

[Eden]

I respect that all of you feel sincere in your concern on this issue...I really do. But back to my original question...would these people be better off (if so, how???)if they had no work at all and had to fend for themselves or starve?

I guess I see it as not having to be an all or nothing situation. It should be more than possible to make the lives of workers in other countries at very least humane (not even asking for luxurious here - just at least a living wage, and the things we expect in this country, like a reasonable work day/week, safe work environment) and still have a very fine standard of living in richer nations. It might mean sacrificing being a multi-million/billionaire for some people...... and probably higher prices for goods many people, but mostly the sacrifice of making the very few millions.... Personally I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I made money like that on the backs of poor people..

Just consider that Nike paid Michael Jordan $20 million to endorse their shoes.... that was more money than they paid their entire 35,000 member workforce that year to produce them... They also have annual profits in the billions... Is it unreasonable to expect them to not squeeze the workers so badly?

[Mr. Bloom]

So, the problem is not our patronage, but the conditions. This is something we can agree on.

But the comparison to slavery is loose at best when you compare employing indigenous people to enslaving kidnapped people.

[shootingstar]

I guess it does get down to making choices..of what goods/from where such goods originate, that we buy or if not, if we really wanted to be more ethical..do our own gardening, sewing (latter, I did lots for many years, but got lazy after cycling passion), etc. At least I don't support the auto industry, by not having any car. :o

And even when we rent one, like we did, last Sunday, my partner is fuming away because he is fighting his sleep disorder in order to stay awake behind the steering wheel.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

So, the problem is not our patronage, but the conditions. This is something we can agree on.

The two are closely linked. The widespread conditions would certainly not exist on such a grand scale if we were not eagerly buying up the unimaginably vast quantities of product as fast as they can produce them. Our abundant money and grotesquely engorged level of insatiable consumerism is fueling and perpetuating the system just as as it is. The rich keep getting richer and more powerful on the backs of the poor, and the poor keep getting poorer and more powerless.


But the comparison to slavery is loose at best when you compare employing indigenous people to enslaving kidnapped people.

Not so loose a comparison as one might think. Just as coal miners were virtually permanent indentured servants before labor unions came into being, who really had no choice but to work under severe and unsafe conditions until they sickened and died, the system being carefully arranged so that they would never be able to pay off their debts to the bosses, so it is that these people (including, not so accidentally, actual prisoners) laboring under slave-like and dangerous conditions are all virtual prisoners of this modern unjust and inhumane system. They may not be kidnapped people (no need to kidnap them from other countries since the available labor force was there already), but are nonetheless no better off than permanent indentured servants, who in order to survive have little choice but to labor their entire lives from childhood to old age under abominable conditions. The system is laid out in such a way as to ensure they can never advance, get out of debt, or improve their situation in life, or even hope to provide their children with a life any less hopeless than their own.


One half to two thirds of all immigrants to Colonial America arrived as indentured servants. At times, as many as 75% of the population of some colonies were under terms of indenture. Even on the frontier, according to the 1790 U.S. Census, 6% of the Kentucky population was indentured.
This was a labor system, not a system of apprenticeship. (Galenson, 6) The historic basis for indenture grew out of English agricultural servitude and began because of labor shortages in England and in the colonies. It developed at a time when England had a great number of people being displaced from farming. This led to an early growth of the indentured labor system.
The importation of white servants under contracts known as indentures proved more profitable as a short-term labor source than enslaving Indians or using free labor. Eventually, the final attempt to ease labor shortages was enslavement of Africans. Wherever you find slavery, you first find indentures.

[lauraelmore1033]

I'm not going to get into the argument, but anyone who thinks that the people producing cheap goods for america are "better off" should check out this film: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5277094596195828118

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

And be sure to watch this award winning documentary on the subject as well:
http://www.freespeech.org/videodb/index.php?action=detail&video_id=10826&browse=1

[Biciclista]

oh give me a break. I am embarrassed that people in China are melting the lead from our used TV monitors over a portable burner in their lap and their kids are out playing in the effluent. I am embarrassed that children are working in the fields to produce OUR coffee and OUR chocolate. I have read about the work conditions for factory workers making clothing for our name brand stores. Major corporations are getting rich on this slavery, yes, it's slavery. And no, I don't think they are better off. In a rush to make it rich, the rainforests are being denuded with slash burning and get rich quick agriculture which leaves the indigenous people no choice but to go into the city and take the sh*t jobs offered to them.
No, I don't think we and our consumer society are doing the people in poorer countries any great favors.

[Irulan]

Corporate America and it's consumers aren't' 100% bad: Starbucks is doubling its purchases of fair trade coffee to some 40 millions pounds of organic, fair trade cofee in 2009.
http://sustainablog.org/2008/10/29/starbucks-to-double-its-purchase-of-fair-trade-coffee-in-2009/

now, I don't shop Starbucks for other reasons, but I thought this was hopeful.

[Biciclista]

there are some positives, absolutely, but human nature has a tenet that I rarely see NOT followed. Power corrupts. Money Corrupts. If I can use those ignorant savages, I'm going to. And I'll even give them little tidbits so they think they're doing good. And then I'll go home and eat cake.

[PamNY]

No, I don't think we and our consumer society are doing the people in poorer countries any great favors.

I don't doubt that the bad stuff is true, but it's legitimate to question what people would do without the work. Are other options worse, or nonexistent? I have no idea of the answer, but I do wonder when this topic comes up.

Pam

[Eden]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that jobs for those people would just go away... I doubt this country even has the workforce or the infrastructure to start manufacturing everything we buy ourselves..... Just think about clothing and shoes. If we relied only on very few brands that are still produced here, most of us would have to sew our own or go naked and barefoot.

It's not like the big corporations cannot afford to treat and pay their workers better... Nike, Walmart, Target, have profits in the billions. They could double the amount they pay and it would be a teensy percentage of what they make.

[Mr. Bloom]

Biciclista, I'm sorry that you are embarassed by these things. But, for me, I accept that there are some things that I simply can't control. I believe that China is China's problem...I didn't choose to send that TV to China, someone in China chose to buy that TV and do something with it. It's not that we shouldn't care about these situations elsewhere, but I choose to devote my attention and energy to things that I can observe first hand (through direct interaction, not distant observation) and impact today in my own backyard.

[Crankin]

This is a complicated topic. I also think that in the end, we, as individuals, are not really going to have an influence on how China treats its workers...
I try to buy local, especially with food. I am driving much less than ever, only filling my car up once every two weeks or so. I will never be doing my grocery shopping by bike, but I have changed my life style. I buy clothes based on if they fit; given my shortness, I am limited to 2-3 brands. Frankly, I don't think about anything else except that.
I have personal experience with part of this topic. My family owned a shoe factory in NH when I was growing up. Eventually, because of the cheap labor in Asia, it went out of business. Since then, my parents had to move to 3 different states, my dad was unemployed a lot, and my brother, who is 11 years younger than me, got quite a different life style than I did. It wasn't good for my family at all, but after all of these years, I don't really think about it. I decided to work hard and get a good education, and in the end I was able to give my kids pretty much the same type of life I had growing up.
I have a lot of other things I could say on this topic, but I won't.

[shootingstar]

Hey, now we know why there are still many who still want to immigrate to North America --despite China's growing economy and Communists loosening up on economic privatization.


But then they get here and some end up in sweat shops. Yea, well several of my cousins who immigrated to Toronto in 1980's, did factory clothing piecework ..in their homes at times. I would drop over to visit and find their work/set-up. But now the garmet industry in Toronto and elsewhere in Canada, has shifted to China.

No wonder why their children go gangbusters at university and try to scale the professional worlds here.

A person sees too much.

[Biciclista]

But now the garmet industry in Toronto and elsewhere in Canada, has shifted to China.

No wonder why their children go gangbusters at university and try to scale the professional worlds here.

A person sees too much.

well said.

[Ana]

I think they should have ads for some sexy, versatile bicycles! :D

[Flur]

I'm not at all appalled. Many, many years ago my Dad (who was a Jaguar mechanic, now retired) needed a new car and after much research he picked out a Toyota Celica, but they didn't buy right away. My mom surprised him with it for Christmas. It wasn't a gift from a rich wife to her rich husband on a fluke. It was a planned purchase that she made a little early. When someone gets a car for Christmas there may be backstory that you don't know, so don't be so quick to judge.

Two additional points:

Not everyone is hurting this year. I haven't had a job since July, so I can't say we're loaded right now, but I have plenty of friends that really haven't been affected by what's going on. They own their homes and aren't trying to sell, they have a long way to retirement and thus aren't concerned about the market dip, and they have stable jobs in industries that aren't under a huge amount of pressure right now.

There are plenty of people in the auto industry that are being laid off. If I go out and buy a car, and others do too, I may save quite a few people their jobs this year. That's a heck of a lot better than volunteering in a soup kitchen.

[Aggie_Ama]

I have for years found the ads stupid but funny. I can't afford to buy a car for anyone, never got a drool worthy car as a gift either. The only one I got as a gift was a 1986 Cutlass on my 16th Birthday in 1997. Most people made fun of it but had no miles and got me around. So yeah, for a lower middle class child I find those commercials the stupidest thing on the planet because in my world cars aren't and will never be gifts. At least not the type they advertise.

I absolutely hate the diamond commercials. For years it was enough to set off a huge rant in my house. My parents were married 27 years before my mom got a diamond. Even then it was "tiny" by these ads standards. I don't think my dad loves her less than my husband loves me just because my husband gave me a diamond engagement ring. My husband's mom had one and his parents got divorced, so I find those ads laughable at best.

Flur- Good point, in my area the economy is still relatively stable. We aren't seeing nearly as much, just tightening the purse strings because it makes sense.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Poor people feel the painful effects of a recession first. They are not millionaires who can shrug over losing a few hundred thousand here and there. They lose their jobs and their homes. Then it begins to trickle up.
Many people who aren't worried now will be directly effected as the economic situation worsens, and just about all the expects agree that it is going to continue to worsen before it starts to get better.

Buying a car 'better' than volunteering in a soup kitchen? I find that logic to be debatable, but yes both acts can help our world in their own ways. Unfortunately not all people can afford to buy new cars anymore...or even used cars for that matter.

[salsabike]

Unfortunately not all people can afford to buy new cars anymore...or even used cars for that matter.

That has ALWAYS been true, and there is a much larger set of poverty issues.

Still the last two posters have made some good points. I too find the car ads stupid but funny since I can't quite envision ever being able to buy someone a car as a gift. But neither do I feel that thinking ill of people who can is necessarily correct.

[KeepingUp]

not appalled and not shocked. what do you expect? they are trying to make money like the rest of us!

[Mr. Bloom]

Buying a car 'better' than volunteering in a soup kitchen? ... but yes both acts can help our world in their own ways. Unfortunately not all people can afford to buy new cars anymore...or even used cars for that matter.

Back to my original post on this very complex and emotional matter:

People who can and do acquire goods (they don't have to be expensive) fuel the economy that employs people. Don't resent what people buy and don't assume that people who own expensive items are appalling (and to be frank, this is the emotionally charged word that triggered my original response...but I think I took it much more emotionally than it was intended)
Selfishness is often not determined by what you own, but by your attitude, especially toward others. Many with resources are generous with their time and money and are INCONSPICUOUS in their giving (and IMHO inconspicuous giving and a willingness to get involved at street level is the antithesis of appalling behavior)

I appreciate the lively debate. Frankly, it's challenged my perspective on some things in a good way. Thanks.

[Crankin]

Thank you, Mr. Silver. In my world, there are a lot of people who might buy a car as a present. If I look at the crowds in Concord center, I might wonder what all this stuff on the news is. People are tightening their belts, but I don't see empty restaurants or stores. Our housing market hasn't burst as much as in the Sunbelt. I recently read home prices have gone down 5% here, as opposed to 32% in AZ. I was literally shocked when I saw all of the foreclosure signs when I was out there in September.
Back to what Mr. Silver said... many of those people buying what some consider to be appalling cars are also giving "appalling" amounts of money to various causes.

[Pax]

I don't think it's the money, spending money (if you have it) is great for the economy...it's the ads that come across as crass and insensitive during these times.

[Ana]

I don't think it's the money, spending money (if you have it) is great for the economy...it's the ads that come across as crass and insensitive during these times.

It is possible that they could be targeting the demographic that will always have money to throw around...

[Aggie_Ama]

One of these ads came on last night and I engaged DH in discussion of it. He was raised like me albeit even slightly lower middle class and views them as dumb. Offensive or appalling? Not really but he can't imagine any can give a car. He got his Grandpas old 1985 GMC with no AC for his 16th birthday in 1996. I still remember the grandpa-esque bumper stickers like plumbing union and "If you don't like the way I drive get off the side walk!"

Funny thing is he has a relative that is a self made millionaire, literally she has that much in cash in the bank then real estate worth as much. The woman is extremely frugal her husband and her made that money through smart investments and living on a depression era mindset. She has two vehicles, both purchased with cash before her husband died in 1999. A suburban and a Z71 Farm Truck, neither with any more bells and whistles than power windows.

At Christmas she gives both her children $10k or maybe it is $20k. BUT she expects her daughter to take her to all her appointments and run errands plus her husband does some small handy work. Her son is expected to move cattle, repair fences, plumbing and take cattle to auction or slaughter. So my husband still doesn't get it since they work for her generosity. :p She could afford to buy every child and grandchild a Lexus and have money in the bank but she never would. She might if we earned it by hauling cattle and goats plus fixing things on her ranch.

[Biciclista]

I too have always found those diamond ads offensive. That's probably why I made it very clear to my DH that he was to never buy me one. I think they're ugly and the labor that produces them is pretty brutal and offensive too.

On the other hand, we DID go to the foodbank last saturday for our joint birthday party and we each bagged over 1/2 ton of frozen carrots. THAT was fun.

[Crankin]

The only thing I think about one of the new car ads is the one where the woman gets a used BMW and complains that her son "took a 29,000 mile joy ride." They make her look dumb enough to think that her car was a new car. I might write an email. The last time I did this, I wrote to Toyota because they had an ad that said something about a father enjoying seeing his son graduate from college and his daughter get married! I think it worked, because the ad disappeared shortly after I sent the email.
Or, I could go down to my BMW dealer and tell them I refuse to buy another one because I am too dumb to know the difference between new and used...
But I won't do it today, because my car is there for service.

[Aggie_Ama]

Well I love my diamonds, hate to think what might have gone into mining them but I like them. They sparkle, only flashy jewelry I really wear. Still HATE those ads. I am pretty sure men who cannot afford to buy diamonds (or chose not to) love their spouses just as strongly as those who do buy them. Make me want to get on the soapbox everytime I see one.

Crankin- I think that ad is funny but why does it have to be a woman that is so stupid? My mom has a hopelessly clueless man friend I could see wondering why his new car had 29k on it. The guy is just gullible and a little dim witted.

[Bluetree]

I think "appalled" is a very harsh word. I think the commercial is in poor taste, but I also know that some of the things I buy are considered extremely extravagant (i.e. spending $10k on bikes in the last calendar year). To each his own.

But I do think that particular commercial is bad/silly/misguided strictly from a marketing POV. Commercials are often made more for brandings sake than for selling individual product. In a time of deep recession, a (any) company would not be wise to shove images of extravagance into peoples faces, esp when the overall climate in the country is one of fear for their livelihoods. Many of those struggling may end up with a windfall later in life, and you don't want to leave negative feelings associated with your product. Plus, a Lexus owner is not necessarily the same tax bracket as a Bentley or RR owner – they are in the same middle class that is scared poopless about their economic future.

(Of course, it may just be that Lexus is recycling an ad made in better years and greenlighted it for distribution long before the stock market collapsed.)

It was not the most appropriate ad, but there are worse things to fret about than a TV commercial.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I too have always found those diamond ads offensive. That's probably why I made it very clear to my DH that he was to never buy me one. I think they're ugly and the labor that produces them is pretty brutal and offensive too.

On the other hand, we DID go to the foodbank last saturday for our joint birthday party and we each bagged over 1/2 ton of frozen carrots. THAT was fun.

So you wound up with a lot of "carats" on your birthday anyway! :D

[Flur]

Many people who aren't worried now will be directly effected as the economic situation worsens, and just about all the expects agree that it is going to continue to worsen before it starts to get better.

Buying a car 'better' than volunteering in a soup kitchen? I find that logic to be debatable, but yes both acts can help our world in their own ways. Unfortunately not all people can afford to buy new cars anymore...or even used cars for that matter.

What keeps the economy going is spending. For example, if a bunch of people shop at Target this year, Target will have a good year, won't have to lay anyone off. This keeps jobs. People who have jobs are more likely to spend and continue the cycle. So every time someone with the means to do so spends money, they are helping to ward off further economic downturn.

The "experts" are actually fueling the economic downturn, by telling people it's going to get worse. This causes people to hold their money, which means less spending and more layoffs.

So, yeah, spending money allows people to keep their jobs, which allows them to keep their homes, which keeps them from becoming homeless and needing to go to soup kitchens. Which would you rather have, a job or a bowl of soup?

[Eden]

OK, so to this point most of my comments have been more directed at over consumption..... I don't think just having money or even being wealthy is any kind of a sin. It does bother me that are the few people who have so much money that they don't even have clue about all of the stuff that they have and couldn't possibly even use/enjoy it all... (like not having two cars or even 3, but having a garage full of 30....Like not even knowing how many houses you own...) Personally I wouldn't ever want that much...

I am also bothered by exploiting other people for cheap goods, and that goes for everyone, not just the overly wealthy.

In any case back to the car commercials. I've just now seen two of them for the first time. The Acura commercial wasn't particularly offensive. The Lexus commercial was pretty disgusting... Acura just suggested that getting a car for Christmas would be fun. Lexus definitely suggested that you'd be better than your friends if you had one - blech! Sorry, I have a 10 year old Saturn, when I drive at all, and I feel no jealousy what so ever towards drivers of Lexi...

[Zen]

I don't think it's the money, spending money (if you have it) is great for the economy...it's the ads that come across as crass and insensitive during these times.

"December to Remember" in the Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.cowherd01dec01,0,5241739.column?page=1)

[bmccasland]

I thought of this thread while I was talking to my Mom over the weekend.

Somewhere along the way in the conversation, Christmas gifts came up, and she asked what I thought about the idea of giving each other donations to charity - with the economy being what it is, and that she doesn't actually need anything. I told her I liked the idea, but she left it up to me on who to sponsor for her. Mummy Dearest lives in Austin, TX, so I'd like to sponsor something over there - any ideas?

[Biciclista]

a spending economy? I'm supposed to keep spending to keep Walmart afloat?
and you don't see anything wrong with that idea?
the spending economy doesn't work. There have been less skilled jobs every year in the USA for about 20 years now. Lots of jobs in retail, yeah, THAT's a great career for someone.
Do you know that saving used to be considered virtuous? that PRESIDENTS used to tell us to save money?
The proof of how artificial this idea can be seen easily. At the slightest scare, we quit spending.
why? because we don't need that stuff. People are still buying essentials. If you take a look you'll see that grocery stores aren't laying folks off.
But maybe we're not buying that third pair of shoes, that extra sweater, all those toys those kids aren't going to want after they take them out of the package?
It's all STUFF that we don't need. Look, I'm as guilty as the next person, I have more bikes, shoes, sweaters, books, and even cars than I need!

Don't spend. Save.

[Aggie_Ama]

Beth- These are all local to Austin. They get a lot of community shout outs from radio/fun runs but still do a lot of good and everyone needs donations.

Caritas of Austin (http://caritasofaustin.org/index.php)is a good all around organization that helps those who need it.

Our local Meals on Wheels (http://www.mealsonwheelsandmore.org/) can always use a helping hand or penny, they are constantly needing volunteers and money. The gas prices last summer really had them worried if they could help those who needed a meal.

There is HAMM (http://www.healthallianceforaustinmusicians.org/) they provide health care/insurance to our thriving music scene.

In high school my local bowling organization always adopted a family from Any Baby Can (http://www.abcaus.org/).

[Biciclista]

"December to Remember" in the Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.cowherd01dec01,0,5241739.column?page=1)

wow, thanks, Zen, that article says it all!

[Pax]

wow, thanks, Zen, that article says it all!

Ditto that.

[smilingcat]

One of these ads came on last night and I engaged DH in discussion of it. He was raised like me albeit even slightly lower middle class and views them as dumb. Offensive or appalling? Not really but he can't imagine any can give a car. He got his Grandpas old 1985 GMC with no AC for his 16th birthday in 1996. I still remember the grandpa-esque bumper stickers like plumbing union and "If you don't like the way I drive get off the side walk!"

Funny thing is he has a relative that is a self made millionaire, literally she has that much in cash in the bank then real estate worth as much. The woman is extremely frugal her husband and her made that money through smart investments and living on a depression era mindset. She has two vehicles, both purchased with cash before her husband died in 1999. A suburban and a Z71 Farm Truck, neither with any more bells and whistles than power windows.

At Christmas she gives both her children $10k or maybe it is $20k. BUT she expects her daughter to take her to all her appointments and run errands plus her husband does some small handy work. Her son is expected to move cattle, repair fences, plumbing and take cattle to auction or slaughter. So my husband still doesn't get it since they work for her generosity. :p She could afford to buy every child and grandchild a Lexus and have money in the bank but she never would. She might if we earned it by hauling cattle and goats plus fixing things on her ranch.

hi aggie-ama,

had to laugh cause it sounds like your "typical" millionaire next door. most are cheap. When you make it on your own, you tend to value your money far more than if you were given the money. She worked and sacraficed hard for it so when she parts with it, people are going to have to EARN it.

[Grog]

Heard an interesting commentator on the radio sometime this week, post-Black Friday, about holiday spending and the economy.

His take was that it doesn't matter whether people are spending or not from a big picture standpoint. If they are not spending, then the money in the bank is used to leverage credit for investment, which is just as badly needed right now in the USA.

He though it was actually pretty weird that the outgoing American president had told Americans to go out and spend.

[smilingcat]

the car ads. Well it sure makes me want to go out and buy one of those cars. NOT!

Affordability not the issue. It isn't about can I afford it or not. It just isn't my thang ya'know.

Really, if anyone is influenced by such ads, then maybe they need to get their head checked.

My partner gets all wound up when she sees Lambouguini (sp), Ferrari, Audi R-8 Porsche 911 turbo. Porsche 911 turbo is the cheapest, starting at mere $117k. Can't say it with a straight face. Lambo and Ferrai are not the most expensive toy on the road. Jaguar XJ-220 was a supercar. cool $1,000,000. So it can sustain 218MPH. Or McLaren F1 also at $1,000,000 What is the point?? I hear these talks from the guys at my office.

Think how many poor families you could feed and house? shaking my head...

My partner drives Toyota T100. and I drive a car from Auto-Union :D (not telling).

There has always been a complaint of commercialism with Xmas. "Miracle on 34th Street"

[Tri Girl]

"December to Remember" in the Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.cowherd01dec01,0,5241739.column?page=1)

'Nuff said. And as a teacher, I see plenty of the "spoiled as a kid- spoiled as an adult" stuff. My spoiled students turn into spoiled parents with spoiled children. It's delightful what our society has turned into.
(excuse my poor grammar- I'm out of school today so my grammar button is turned off).

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

What keeps the economy going is spending. For example, if a bunch of people shop at Target this year, Target will have a good year, won't have to lay anyone off. This keeps jobs. People who have jobs are more likely to spend and continue the cycle. So every time someone with the means to do so spends money, they are helping to ward off further economic downturn.

The "experts" are actually fueling the economic downturn, by telling people it's going to get worse. This causes people to hold their money, which means less spending and more layoffs.

So, yeah, spending money allows people to keep their jobs, which allows them to keep their homes, which keeps them from becoming homeless and needing to go to soup kitchens. Which would you rather have, a job or a bowl of soup?

Well I don't agree with this. It's the basis of the theory that has been put into effect for years now, but we are now seeing where it leads. It's an over-simplified idea that is no longer working very well because of many complex factors.

First of all, the average American has OVERSPENT and has large credit card debts, car loans, mortgages, college loans, and other debts already.
They owe overblown mortgage payments which were poorly calculated at way beyond their means. Some are already losing their homes or having to sell their homes in order to downsize or rent. (I know a couple of friends already who are now forced to sell their homes, people who never had money problems before, people whose businesses have dropped off by 50% over the past year, and they simply can no longer continue making their mortgage payments- they have already gone through much of their savings trying to keep the mortgage payments going despite losing jobs and getting sick without health insurance.)
This has been going on for a while now.

Many people are without health insurance now and simply DON'T HAVE the money for it. (I can barely afford mine now at $475/month for myself). Only the wealthy can now afford to send in $100-150 per WEEK for health insurance, or those with jobs that have great benefits (such jobs are harder and harder to find nowadays). People are LOSING THEIR JOBS or are having to take two or more part time jobs (with no benefits or health insurance of course) in order to buy food and pay rent.

Sure there are plenty of people who are not yet feeling any financial pain and there are some who won't for one reason or another. Yet these are people whom I do not consider to be of average income or in average situations. They are well off. They say we should all buy more things. ....buy more things with what?- credit cards that are already over loaded with debt??
Should I get my tooth crown fixed this month and make my next health insurance payment and give my daughter $200 so she can make her rent this month between jobs, or should I go and spend that $1500 on Christmas presents?? Gee, what a hard decision! :cool:

Most Americans are in hock already up to their eyeballs (our grandparents would have been horrified by the debts people now considered 'average').
And the solution is to spend more, charge more new stuff on our credit cards and take out more new car loans? Sounds lovely, but it doesn't sound much like the planet I live on.

[Eden]

Yeah - I can't agree that spending more will help our economy either...
especially not spending at big discount stores like Wal-Mart or Target...

Yes, technically those places create jobs, but they are low paying, often benefit-less jobs that cannot support a family.... If you buy from those places you are mostly sending your money overseas and into the pockets of the few very rich people who own those companies (or at very least large amounts of their stock...)

That we no longer have much real manufacturing in this country is a more of the problem... we don't make what we buy any more, which means fewer jobs that require a skill and pay better. If you really feel you should buy something to support the economy at least try to find something that was made here and buy it from a local small business.

[Zen]

Do you know that saving used to be considered virtuous? that PRESIDENTS used to tell us to save money?

When I was in elementary school we had stamp books, kind of like those for S & H Green Stamps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S&H_Green_Stamps), but these were for Savings Bonds.

Not a bad idea.

[Flur]

people whose businesses have dropped off by 50% over the past year

Why did their businesses drop off?

As I stated above, people who have the means to do so should spend. When I said that I did not mean that people who do not have the means to do so should find the means by leveraging credit. DH and I are holding back on quite a few things right now because I don't have a job. We don't have the means. But I expect that I'll be getting a job in January (we have two major corporations merging here in MN and that means work in my field), at which time we'll probably be spending more (we'll also go back to out normal saving pattern, which means saving more too). I do shop online, but I make an effort to buy local and to stay loyal to stores that have been good to me. We still eat out, albeit less, at our favorite local restaurants that cook with local foods, thus supporting the local farmers and restaurant owners here. If everyone like my husband and I stopped eating out and shopping, there's a good chance some of the restaurants and local stores would have to close their doors or lay off staff. Choosing to patronize these places has nothing to do with an idealistic view of what types of jobs I want people to be able to keep, it's the over-arching fact that more people out of jobs hurts the economy, no matter what jobs they had to begin with.

For the record, I said Target, not Walmart. It was an example, not an instruction. But, also for the record, Target is a local company where I am, and they employ a huge number of people at all levels in many areas, from marketing to branding to tech to fashion development to finance to the retail people you see in the stores. Same with Best Buy and 3M. If these three companies have a bad year it will be a horrible hit for the Minneapolis-St. Paul area. So you can bet that I'll be buying my husband's Christmas present from Best Buy, wrapping it in paper from Target and using 3M tape to seal the edges.

[Flur]

Yeah - I can't agree that spending more will help our economy either...
especially not spending at big discount stores like Wal-Mart or Target...

Yes, technically those places create jobs, but they are low paying, often benefit-less jobs that cannot support a family.... If you buy from those places you are mostly sending your money overseas and into the pockets of the few very rich people who own those companies (or at very least large amounts of their stock...)

I can't speak for Walmart, but I can say this is absolutely not true for Target. Trust me, my husband (who works for Target, along with most of our local friends) does not have a low-paying, benefit-less job that can't support a family. It's supporting both of us right now, and has been since July. And if we had kids, we'd still be getting by without my income. And I've gotten my benefits through Target since we moved here for him to work at Target 4 years ago. They're pretty good, actually.

Target's a public company. That means that anyone can buy stock in it, not just the rich. Check your 401k, there's a good chance that Target stock is included in one of your mutual funds, which means YOU own Target.

[Zen]

I'm afraid to look at my 401k

[badgercat]

I'm not sure that I have anything super insightful to add to this conversation... i just wanted to add that ALL perspectives have been very interesting to read.

As an aside to the "savings" path this thread seems to be on now, though, put my name in the "twenty-something who understands the value of a dollar and hard work" column. Sadly, based on what I see in many people my age (and people not my age, for that matter), it's not a very long column.

Right now, I'm in debt for the first time in my life (unless you count when I borrowed money from my parents and grandpa to buy my first and only car), and it's one student loan taken out in my own name to help me pay for graduate school. I was able to take out a small loan thanks to the money I've been working for and SAVING since I started working in high school. Granted, I had a lot of financial help from my parents when I was in college, but that's what allowed me to put that money in the bank, which is allowing me to avoid the starving-grad-student stereotype now.

Too often, I see peers stiffing roommates on utility bill payments, not chipping in much for tip at a group dinner outing, or not offering gas money for a long drive because they're "broke," but thinking nothing of going out and spending $50 on a DVD box set the day it comes out or $100 on a new dress. I just can't relate to that. If I have the money to buy a new video game, I have AT LEAST that much money to donate to a charity or to shop at a local business instead of Wal-Mart or whatever.

Now, I'm no financial saint. I have my little spendy vices here and there... but the fact remains that I've been a credit-card holder for about 7 years now, and have NEVER ONCE charged more than I could pay off, in full, in that same month. It would never occur to me to spend money that I don't have on a... TV or something.

Now I'm just rambling. I guess where I'm going with this is yes, far too many Americans are gluttonous consumers. But liking to splurge a little on restaurant trips and bicycles and even, yes, fancy cars :p and being a responsible consumer don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[solobiker]

I too have always found those diamond ads offensive. That's probably why I made it very clear to my DH that he was to never buy me one. I think they're ugly and the labor that produces them is pretty brutal and offensive too.

On the other hand, we DID go to the foodbank last saturday for our joint birthday party and we each bagged over 1/2 ton of frozen carrots. THAT was fun.

I completly agree with the whole diamond issue. Diamonds don't do anything for me. At my last job all the women had these HUGE diamond rings. One women even bragged that she would not marry her husband unless he spent at least $10,000.00 on her engagement ring. Yes, I wrote $10,000.00. To me that is just crazy.

[Flur]

I completly agree with the whole diamond issue. Diamonds don't do anything for me. At my last job all the women had these HUGE diamond rings. One women even bragged that she would not marry her husband unless he spent at least $10,000.00 on her engagement ring. Yes, I wrote $10,000.00. To me that is just crazy.

+1 on the diamond ads. I like diamonds, but I hate the way that women are encouraged to obsess about them. Having a lot of diamonds or large diamonds does not mean that you're more loved or that your relationship "is forever". That's up to you and your SO, and no amount of $$ spent on a ring can guarantee that.

[Eden]

I have an opal on my wedding ring, and the ring isn't fancy either - it was made by a jewelry student at our college. My husband and I got engaged when we were in college. I don't think we could even conceive of having $10,000 to spend at that time... even now I wouldn't want to have something that valuable on my person.... egad, what if I lost it.

[Biciclista]

I completly agree with the whole diamond issue. Diamonds don't do anything for me. At my last job all the women had these HUGE diamond rings. One women even bragged that she would not marry her husband unless he spent at least $10,000.00 on her engagement ring. Yes, I wrote $10,000.00. To me that is just crazy.

wow, that's an indecent waste of money! And boy, wouldn't that guy be getting a bargain... She wouldn't marry him if he didn't come up with a 10K ring. um, a marriage made in heaven!

[Aggie_Ama]

I will not drop carats but my diamonds are mine and I like them. Bigger than what my mom had for 27 years but smaller than many people I know. There was no requirement on the size and this is actually my second ring but that is a long story. My first one was prettier overall and the diamonds were smaller, I still said yes. They were not even close to $10k though that is absurd for this little middle class baby. My now divorced friend had a $10k ring, it was hideous and huge but I just didn't agree with the styling. The man that came with it wasn't worth $10 let alone $10k. His excessive flaunting of money actually was one of the many reasons they are no longer together.

Any person who says they will not marry a man for less than $X has some really messed up priorities. My friend had a friend that said she would reject any guy who presented less than a flawless 2 carat diamond. She finally found someone to give her an insanely huge ring, I hope they are happy together. My diamonds have visible falws to me but you know it is kind of symbolic of me. I love them flaws and all, I tend to think that of my husband when he looks at me. But again those diamonds didn't make our marriage and they sure as heck don't strengthen it as a Debeers ad would like me to believe.

Off that soap box. By the way tongiht I saw 4 car company commercials: Hyundai, Acura, Lexus and BMW. All said a car is an excellent gift. MAybe I will buy DH a Matchbox car for his stocking as a joke. We can donate it to charity later. :p

[jobob]

I have an opal on my wedding ring, and the ring isn't fancy either Yikes, just be careful with it - opals can be very fragile.

I would have liked an opal engagement ring but I worked in a lab at the time and with all the crud I got my hands into I would have had to take it off a lot, a sure way for me to lose it. So I opted for a small sapphire (almost as strong as a diamond) with miniscule diamond chips on either side. As rings go it was pretty inexpensive, but I really like it to this day.

[Irulan]

+1 on the diamond ads. I like diamonds, but I hate the way that women are encouraged to obsess about them. Having a lot of diamonds or large diamonds does not mean that you're more loved or that your relationship "is forever". That's up to you and your SO, and no amount of $$ spent on a ring can guarantee that.


Read The Heartless Stone by Tom Zollner. He goes into the whole marketing mega mindset behind the diamond ad campaigns and lots of other socio-political diamond stuff.

[Eden]

DeBeers (they control almost all of the diamond trade) is really scary! You can get diamonds from Canada that are not associated with DeBeers or any of the horrid things that most diamonds are involved in. I would guess its not entirely environmentally friendly getting them out, but they are at least they are providing good jobs to the native communities and are not associated with civil war, slavery, terrorism etc.

[Aggie_Ama]

So I opted for a small sapphire (almost as strong as a diamond) with miniscule diamond chips on either side. As rings go it was pretty inexpensive, but I really like it to this day.


My husband never thought a sapphire could be an engagement ring. We saw someone with one and he was completely in love with the look. He said if he had only known he could do that I would have one instead. He doesn't get too excited about jewelry but he was completely taken by the sapphire engagement ring. He should have watched Friends I reckon. :p

[Mr. Bloom]

... many of those people buying what some consider to be appalling cars are also giving "appalling" amounts of money to various causes.



Funny thing is he has a relative that is a self made millionaire, literally she has that much in cash in the bank then real estate worth as much. The woman is extremely frugal her husband and her made that money through smart investments and living on a depression era mindset. She has two vehicles, both purchased with cash before her husband died in 1999. A suburban and a Z71 Farm Truck, neither with any more bells and whistles than power windows.


Case in Point:
As many of you know, I commute between two cities. One, Bloomington Indiana, has a self made local BILLionaire. He has personally given over $400,000,000.00 to the community for historic rehab and economic development (in addition to being the largest employer in the area).

He lives in an ordinary house on an ordinary street in Mellencamp's small town. Until recently, he and his wife still parked their '94 Cadillac and '96 Buick ON THE STREET because the city would not approve a variance for him to build a garage! Did I mention what he has given to the city??? In any event, his attitude is "give because it's right...expect nothing in return".

NOW, I hear that he has a very, very, very nice boat on the coast...(one that would be valued with a couple of commas and that some would think to be pretentious and ghastly in its cost)...and you know what, I have no problem with that.;)

Lively and enjoyable debate. Mr. Silver steps off the soapbox:)

[Tuckervill]

You can dig your own diamonds in Arkansas (http://www.craterofdiamondsstatepark.com/)!

I may have mentioned this before, but I saw a giant Arkansas diamond at Tiffany's on 5th Avenue, once. I was impressed more with that than anything else in the store! A little bit of home, right there in New York City. :)

Karen

[bmccasland]

Beth- These are all local to Austin. They get a lot of community shout outs from radio/fun runs but still do a lot of good and everyone needs donations.

Aggie Ama - Thank you for the info, that helps a lot!

*********************************************************
Now back to our regularly scheduled soap box meyhem

*********************************************************

[Crankin]

I know I am lucky. I have very good benefits through my husband's work that we only pay $180.00 a month for. I was able to quit my well paying job to go back to school, without really changing my lifestyle. I did get a loan for the 18K tuition, but I will pay those back as soon as I graduate. This is the first time in my life that I don't have to work. Yes, I am depending on my husband's salary, but when I was younger and had the opportunity to switch careers, it would have meant a major sacrifice for the whole family. I couldn't do it.
I have never been in a Walmart. There is just something about that place that is creepy. Target, well, I used to go there in AZ, 20 years ago, and haven't been in one since.
Our 401ks have tanked, but they will recover. We are using the downturn to put our money into stocks that are really low but have potential. My husband plans to work for at least 10 more years, maybe longer and I plan to continue my new career at least on a part time basis until I am pretty old. Well, at least until I am 65, maybe longer. I think I would go crazy without working.
One thing to consider is that we are all at different stages of life. I worked for 30 years and for about 10 of those years I also worked a second job in a health club. I also taught religious school. I guess what I am trying to say is that I will keep spending my money, because I feel like I have paid my dues. I don't have any debt except my mortgage and a second mortgage. I am not going to change what I do based on the fact that others are having issues. I just wish that the media would stop talking about how bad it is, because whenever some "announcement" comes out, you can almost feel the panic. It feels planned to me...

[Eden]

I don't think anyone here is begrudging a person that has a comfortable life, or even a luxurious one.... but rather finds tasteless having so much you can't possibly use it all or feeling superior because of the stuff you have rather than the stuff you are made of.... (ala the Lexus ads..)

[Pax]

I don't think anyone here is begrudging a person that has a comfortable life, or even a luxurious one.... but rather finds tasteless having so much you can't possibly use it all or feeling superior because of the stuff you have rather than the stuff you are made of.... (ala the Lexus ads..)

Well said.

BTW - For anyone who might be interested in sharing the wealth...Kiva.org (http://www.kiva.org/?gclid=CPz6m__VpJcCFQFqxwodh1p6dA) is one of many great ways to do it.

[Aggie_Ama]

Aggie Ama - Thank you for the info, that helps a lot!


You're welcome those are the only ones I could think of although we have a ton, maybe one is suitable to your mom. I didn't realize your mom was here, I thought SA for some reason. ;)

[Flur]

Now that I'm thinking about it, most of my friends have rings in the aforementioned price range. In NYC/Northern Jersey at the time we all got engaged (about 5 years ago) that was the ballpark price for a close-to-flawless 1-to-1.25 carat diamond with a nice setting and maybe a few side stones, and this was the standard size ring unless you were rich (rich by NY/NJ standards, that is). Yes, I said standard size. This is the average ring that most girls got, which was then followed by more major jewelry when each child was born (birthing gifts) and a larger "engagement" ring later, often as an anniversary present. This is the custom. It is what it is, and there's a lot of peer pressure to stick with it (see below). Yes, they're all still married. None of them set a minimum, it's what their husbands did because it's what all their friends did.

DH and I had a nice ring picked out in this ballpark, not because I put a minimum, and not because we could afford it, but because this was what everyone did so we did it too. But when DH told his family that he wanted to marry me, they gave him heirloom stones passed down from his grandmother. This is what he proposed with. The main stone is substantially smaller than the NY standard (but still a nice size, IMHO), but these were a gift from my husband's family with the intention that they be given to me. That means so much more to me than any amount of money he could have spent.

I had a woman outright insult my ring because of its size. No joke. She was DH's hairdresser. She called my center stone a "cute little baby stone" and implied it was not up to her standards. A number of women made faces to the same effect. I also had a good friend insult my wedding band (which I picked because it went nicely with my engagement ring) because of the diamond size. She said that my ring was "nice, but I want a ring that looks like a wedding ring." She picked out a very similar ring with much larger diamonds in it. Seriously. Everything that was said just made me more happy to have what I had.

Apparently to many women size does matter. Is this because of DeBeers? Maybe, I don't know for sure. All I know is that when a couple takes a few years to pay off the cost of the engagement ring after they are married, something is probably off.

[Irulan]

Apparently to many women size does matter. Is this because of DeBeers? Maybe, I don't know for sure. All I know is that when a couple takes a few years to pay off the cost of the engagement ring after they are married, something is probably off.


The whole "ring=3 month salary" thing is a construct invented by the diamond industry many many years ago as a marketing tool.

Many companies, Tiffany included, are now taking a much closer look at where things are coming from. Not just the stones, but the precious metals too.

Again, if you are interested in getting educated on this topic ( diamonds) the book I recommended before is excellent reading.

[Biciclista]

DH and I had a nice ring picked out in this ballpark, not because I put a minimum, and not because we could afford it, but because this was what everyone did so we did it too. But when DH told his family that he wanted to marry me, they gave him heirloom stones passed down from his grandmother. This is what he proposed with. The main stone is substantially smaller than the NY standard (but still a nice size, IMHO), but these were a gift from my husband's family with the intention that they be given to me. That means so much more to me than any amount of money he could have spent.

I had a woman outright insult my ring because of its size. No joke. She was DH's hairdresser. She called my center stone a "cute little baby stone" and implied it was not up to her standards. A number of women made faces to the same effect. I also had a good friend insult my wedding band (which I picked because it went nicely with my engagement ring) because of the diamond size. She said that my ring was "nice, but I want a ring that looks like a wedding ring." She picked out a very similar ring with much larger diamonds in it. Seriously. Everything that was said just made me more happy to have what I had.

Apparently to many women size does matter. Is this because of DeBeers? Maybe, I don't know for sure. All I know is that when a couple takes a few years to pay off the cost of the engagement ring after they are married, something is probably off.

Well, good for you for not succumbing to the madness. And the audacity of people to insult you because your heirloom family ring was not as big as they thought was appropriate. Such madness. That's right, you've reminded me of why I left NJ!!!!

[Jolt]

wow, that's an indecent waste of money! And boy, wouldn't that guy be getting a bargain... She wouldn't marry him if he didn't come up with a 10K ring. um, a marriage made in heaven!

Yeah...that is seriously ridiculous!! Some people just don't have their priorities straight... Personally I don't care much for the whole engagement ring thing in general; seems kind of wasteful to me and I've never been much into jewelry anyway. Same with the extravagant weddings; wouldn't it be smarter for couples to have a simple-but-still-nice wedding and use that money to get themselves started? That's what I'd like to do once I find that great guy...and he doesn't have to get me a fancy ring either!

[lph]

"December to Remember" in the Baltimore Sun (http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-te.cowherd01dec01,0,5241739.column?page=1)


Yee-urk :eek:

Ok, I'm officially appalled. Not at people buying cars, mind you.

[jobob]

I had a woman outright insult my ring because of its size. No joke. She was DH's hairdresser. She called my center stone a "cute little baby stone" and implied it was not up to her standards. A number of women made faces to the same effect. I also had a good friend insult my wedding band (which I picked because it went nicely with my engagement ring) because of the diamond size. She said that my ring was "nice, but I want a ring that looks like a wedding ring." She picked out a very similar ring with much larger diamonds in it. Seriously. Everything that was said just made me more happy to have what I had.

Get out!!! How silly. Well, they'd have a grand old time picking apart my set! :D The small emerald-cut sapphire ring (fwiw, it's a very nice deep blue stone) is paired with the plainest gold band possible. The jeweler did jazz it up by putting a small curve in the band to follow the contour of the sapphire's setting.

I think it's simplicity suits me perfectly. :)

And I love the fact that you have a heirloom ring. That makes it so much more meaningful.

[Zen]

I think my engagement ring and wedding band came from Wal-Mart.
No joke.

I'll never wear one even if I do get remarried

[GLC1968]

I had a woman outright insult my ring because of its size. No joke. She was DH's hairdresser. She called my center stone a "cute little baby stone" and implied it was not up to her standards. A number of women made faces to the same effect. I also had a good friend insult my wedding band (which I picked because it went nicely with my engagement ring) because of the diamond size. She said that my ring was "nice, but I want a ring that looks like a wedding ring." She picked out a very similar ring with much larger diamonds in it. Seriously. Everything that was said just made me more happy to have what I had.


And this snobbery goes both ways. I've been insulted and had it insinuated that I'm spoiled or rich because of the size of my ring...also an heirloom. When my DH told my mom that he wanted to marry me, she gave him my grandmother's diamond. He had it set into a ring before he asked me to marry him. It's not huge (it's not multi-carrat or anything), but I've certainly been in situations where people have made plenty of derrogatory comments about it's size. Personally, I find it rude and it makes me uncomfortable. I love, love, love my ring both because I think it's fricken gorgeous and because of the sentimental value (both from DH and from my grandmother/grandfather), but I hate that I find myself in situations where I feel that I'll be better recieved if I keep my hand in my pocket. :mad:


About those ads...the very first thing both my DH and I commented on to each other when we first saw them was "wow, bad timing, much?". I'm not personally offended by the ads (or by the people who buy cars for gifts), but I also can't say that Lexus is really making that big of a business mistake by running them. From their perspective, so what if they offend people struggling to get by...those people aren't their customers, right? I mean, yeah, it's not in good taste and they should care about their company image...but really, from a business standpoint, does it really matter?

[Aint Doody]

I want everybody to have a big wedding. I love to go to parties!!!!

[Biciclista]

you can have a big and fun wedding without spending +10k is the point. My son just did. I should ask him what it cost.

you can have nice gifts without having to spend +40k on a car or +10k on a ring.

[Crankin]

The one thing I don't understand is big weddings. I think I recently heard the average wedding costs like $80,000. What??? Why don't people concentrate on the marriage instead?
This was a second marriage for me (most people don't know this) so we had to pay for it ourselves. I am not into planning parties (well, I'm better now) and we could have afforded a nice luncheon at a hotel in Scottsdale. But, instead we had 20 people at the ceremony at our apt. and then we took everyone out to dinner at a restaurant at the top of a bank in downtown Mesa (my in laws knew the owner). My dress was from the Limited, the flowers came from the Japanese flower growers on Baseline Rd. in Phoenix, and my brother who was 15 took the pictures. I do regret not having my friends at my wedding, but it was fun. We decided to spend a little more on our son's Bar Mitzvah parties, which both were held in a restaurant that does catered parties on Saturday afternoons. We spent on the food and had a good dj. The emphasis was on the kids. We made the table centerpieces ourselves and the goody bags for the kids. They both were very nice parties for 5-6K.
I had a very small 3/4 carat engagement ring which I lost. It had a major flaw in it. My husband was going to buy me a 2 carat ring, because as Flur said, that is what everyone around us did. But I said no, let's buy a house instead. I wish I had a diamond now, but I don't think about it, really. I have a lot of very nice heirloom jewelry that I wear when i go out. I used to wear more of it in the 80s when I wore suits to work.
I am now faced with a situation where my older son is serious with a girl from a poor family (that's the least of their issues). It's more that they are financially irresponsible. If they get married, any party will be up to us; my husband is adamant he won't pay, but he did say they could have it at the house. In my mind, a barbeque or pot luck will suffice, unless my son wants to pay for the food! I told him I would give him my diamond earrings to make into an engagement ring; they were set in a ring that my grandmother gave me when I was 13. I also have my mom's wedding dress that I would love for someone to wear. I think that is more meaningful than spending all that $ on a dress.

[Irulan]

I think we need to be careful about laying heavy judgements on things. Its so easy to go from being concerned and critical of poor financial decisions, and the overall marketing mentality to buy and consume ( which imsho is justified) to making broad brush judgments that may or may not be accurate or appropriate...

GLC1968's story about getting hassled for her big diamond is a classic. My SIL has a HUGE diamond that she inherited, and frankly it's no one's business but her's how she got it or how much it cost. Who are we to judge if someone CAN afford a big wedding or a fancy car and makes a sound financial choice that is what they want to do? It's no different that someone else judging us becuase we choose to spend our hard earned cash on nice bikes ( and quite a few of us have very nice bikes) instead of jewelry, a nice car or a big TV. Just because someone spends $$ on something that doesn't meet our own personal value system doesn't make it bad, it just means it's something we wouldn't choose to do.

I.

[salsabike]

I think we need to be careful about laying heavy judgements on things. Its so easy to go from being concerned and critical of poor financial decisions, and the overall marketing mentality to buy and consume ( which imsho is justified) to making broad brush judgments that may or may not be accurate or appropriate...

GLC1968's story about getting hassled for her big diamond is a classic. My SIL has a HUGE diamond that she inherited, and frankly it's no one's business but her's how she got it or how much it cost. Who are we to judge if someone CAN afford a big wedding or a fancy car and makes a sound financial choice that is what they want to do? It's no different that someone else judging us becuase we choose to spend our hard earned cash on nice bikes ( and quite a few of us have very nice bikes) instead of jewelry, a nice car or a big TV. Just because someone spends $$ on something that doesn't meet our own personal value system doesn't make it bad, it just means it's something we wouldn't choose to do.

I.

Yup.

[Pax]

After 19 years with my beloved we're not even allowed to marry...what others do to celebrate theirs is just white noise to us.

[Blueberry]

After 19 years with my beloved we're not even allowed to marry...what others do to celebrate theirs is just white noise to us.

Good perspective:)

And here's hoping that's not the case for much longer:)

[Flur]

After 19 years with my beloved we're not even allowed to marry...what others do to celebrate theirs is just white noise to us.

EVERYONE should be allowed to marry. This is one of the issues that really gets me. I know that it's political and that not everyone feels like I do, but this REALLY gets me mad.

I could go on and on... but I won't. Mouth shut now.

[Xrayted]

After 19 years with my beloved we're not even allowed to marry...what others do to celebrate theirs is just white noise to us.

Amen! Now there is something to be appalled over. In the land of the free, we still have civil rights violations and hateful discrimination. You are my personal hero, Pax. Thank you for... well, just thank you. :cool: :D *hugs*

[Irulan]

It is a bummer when big things with personal importance don’t work out the way one wants them too.
Resentment and anger are poison. The best way to get out of resentment is to practice an attitude of gratitude for what you DO have.

[snapdragen]

I think we need to be careful about laying heavy judgements on things. Its so easy to go from being concerned and critical of poor financial decisions, and the overall marketing mentality to buy and consume ( which imsho is justified) to making broad brush judgments that may or may not be accurate or appropriate...

GLC1968's story about getting hassled for her big diamond is a classic. My SIL has a HUGE diamond that she inherited, and frankly it's no one's business but her's how she got it or how much it cost. Who are we to judge if someone CAN afford a big wedding or a fancy car and makes a sound financial choice that is what they want to do? It's no different that someone else judging us becuase we choose to spend our hard earned cash on nice bikes ( and quite a few of us have very nice bikes) instead of jewelry, a nice car or a big TV. Just because someone spends $$ on something that doesn't meet our own personal value system doesn't make it bad, it just means it's something we wouldn't choose to do.

I.

Amen

[Xrayted]

It is a bummer when big things with personal importance don’t work out the way one wants them too.
Resentment and anger are poison. The best way to get out of resentment is to practice an attitude of gratitude for what you DO have.

That's true. So I guess I am grateful that I can never get divorced. :D ;)

[crazycanuck]

*snort* :rolleyes: X..you're too funny chickadee..

[withm]

If your "friends" have truly voiced criticism and disdain for the size of your diamond, be it small or large, what you really need are NEW friends.