Please share: Relationships, Engagement and Marriage [Archive]

Irulan

11-03-2008, 07:09 PM

I would love to read about some of your life experiences related to engagement, marriage, and relationships in general. I know that we're all human and therefore imperfect but I am having difficulty understanding other people's relationships. The media idealizes romance and depicts often inaccurate portrayals of life (i.e. happily ever after...) but I like to keep it real so I'd very much like to hear some happy and sad stories about love from some of you!

How do you know you're ready to be married? What are some of the obstacles that strengthened or destroyed your relationship?

Don't choose a partner thinking that they will change later, or that you can change them, or that if they love you they WILL change. Or, don't ignore something that has the potential to flare up into something big. An example might be... you guys like to party on the weekends? What happens when one of you decides to quit boozing it up and settle down, and the other wants to keep going. This is all hypothetical of course. Love does not conquer all.

Don't deny the realities of who/what you/they are. We all have baggage. What is it, and how does it affect your relationships?

Women especially expect men to be mindreaders, which is very destructive to relationships.

It's important to have discussions ahead of time on money values, childrearing values, religion in the home, etc.

I've got 29 years under my belt, and we've been through it all, including two kids and a trip to marriage hell that we had to fix. So there's all my advice.

Grog

11-03-2008, 07:21 PM

Trekhawk

11-03-2008, 07:52 PM

to what do i attribute our success? We made a commitment to stay together. Doesn't matter if i can't stand him today; I know tomorrow, I'll get over what I'm mad about and he'll still be there to love me. And vice versa. It works.

Mimi you have hit the nail on the head with that statement.:)

I was 31 when we got married and we have been married now for 13 years.
We have three great boys and I feel very blessed to have such a wonderful family.
We do annoy each other sometimes but we also make each other laugh and that is gold.

salsabike

11-03-2008, 09:56 PM

I got married when I was 37 (1991) and I still think he's the coolest guy I know. I almost got married when I was 23 and again in my late 20s, and had I married either of them, I would be divorced now. I got very lucky. We laugh a lot. We don't have control battles. We love to do some things together, and other things separately. He's smart, funny, interesting, cool, calm and collected, and committed.

Take your time. No need to rush. Speak up about important things when you need to, but pick your battles--not everything is important enough to fuss about. See past the "does he give me cool presents on my birthday" to "does he act lovingly". Be careful around needy people---they're pretty exhausting in a marriage. Don't marry anyone who doesn't make you laugh reasonably often. Don't marry someone who is unkind. Get comfortable with apologizing and acknowledging your own weirdnesses.

alpinerabbit

11-03-2008, 10:34 PM

I think you need to be best friends with your partner.

I also think a relationship cannot work out between people who do not have a basic respect for other humans, and who put their "wants" first. Dunno how else to express it.

I've lived with my DBF for the past 10 years, together 11.5 yrs.
We would probably be married if there wasn't the tax hike you suffer when you do, as we both make a full salary. I don't want kids, although sometimes I fear I will regret it, but then the "minuses" come back into focus.
We've talked it through, I think he could envision them but I do not think he would cut back on his career so it would be me bearing most of the load.

We have never had a fight. He supported me through some rough times.
Once I was whining about the job when the previous one was the job from hell (&above-said rough times) that I just got out of, and he got exasperated, probably thinking "there she goes again" - I realized what I was doing and told him that I did not expect him to solve my problems, just to listen and pat my head saying "I understand".

I need to have a partner that I can look up to, in part at least, intellectually. That does not necessarily mean he has to be better educated, but he has to at least be mentally agile.

The physical part of a relationship, I think, gets overrated and after 10 years, we are in a comfortable, low key kinda rhythm that suits me. Physical closeness is much more important.
We've talked about that as well. He's not good with expressing emotions but I told him repeatedly that he must bring it up if something's not right. Hope he will.
He is the loveliest person I know as a type of guy, he loves cooking, etc.
I think you need to keep up gestures of love to keep the fire crackling. So I try to sneak in little things, sticky notes when I'm gone unexpectedly, etc., go out and have a drink before dinner -
And his body is looking better than ever with starting triathlons as well :-P

tulip

11-04-2008, 01:36 AM

You are bringing up good questions before you jump into this. It takes alot of courage to do that.

I was together with my now ex husband for 17 years. We were married for 13. We started dating (quickly moving in together) when I was 22 and still in college. I do not consider the marriage a failure--it would be a failure if the marriage had continued even though it had lost its soul. We have started new chapters in our lives, and that's okay. I think there's alot of pressure to stay together regardless of the circumstances. I felt an enormous amount of pressure to stay married simply because I was married, even though the relationship had changed, I had changed, he had changed, but we had not changed together.

BTW, we never fought either, and that was a problem. And as Irulan pointed out, alot of women expect men to read their minds--that was destructive on my part. Communication from the beginning is very important.

We did not have children by choice. We thought that having children would bring too much stress based on our own childhoods. I don't think that the decision to have or not have kids is the only reason that marriages succeed or fail.

I'm in a long-term relationship now that is wonderful. If I knew what I know now, my marriage would have been very different one way or another (it might have been shorter, or it might be going strong, but different). I'm still learning to talk openly with my partner and not fear a potential negative reaction, but those are my issues that I'm dealing with on my own in therapy, too.

One thing that really would have benefited me and my marriage is counseling before we got married to work out some issues, as well as later on when we came across some very rocky times. We did not do that, and I think it was because I (and perhaps he, too, but I can't speak for him) was too scared about what counseling would reveal. I also think that I was too young to jump into such a serious relationship when I was 22. I had big plans that I put on hold (and never went back to) then, and that pattern continued during the marriage.

PM me if you want to.

kermit

11-04-2008, 01:37 AM

I have to say I never planned on being married. When I was younger and very independent, I had friends who wanted nothing else but to get their MRS. degree as they called it in college. I came from parents who hated each other and never wanted to be stuck with that. I had my own career and own agenda. And thats when I met my husband. I met him at work and we happened to start working together. He was married but separated which I did not believe at first. I really liked him and thought if nothing else we could be friends. Work kept use together and talking alot. Six months down the road and he told me he was divorced and kissed me. That was it, hook line and sinker. We've been married for 13 years and he is my BEST friend. I never thought it would happen but it did. We are both in law enforcement which has the highest divorce and cheating rate in the world. If I had a nickel for every married man that hit on me. My husband and I have actually broken that mold and are very happy. Communication is the key, I believe, I tell him everything. I guess my point is, don't feel pressured by other people, do your own thing and I am telling you when you least expect it......expect it!

Crankin

11-04-2008, 02:57 AM

I met my husband when a friend dragged me to a Jewish singles softball game. I was 25 and I had already had a short, but messy and dysfunctional relationship/short marriage in college. When I got to the game, it was 110 out (love the Valley of the Sun) and some of the guys were, uh wearing black pants and dress shoes... I looked up and saw my husband, who looked strikingly like my first love from middle school/high school. He was a very good player. Afterwards, we all went out for pizza and he asked me out. So did 2 other guys. Five weeks later, we moved in together and a month after that, we were engaged. We got married when we had known each other six months. My parents told me to live together longer and his parents, well, they went nuts.
Although our parents and families were VERY different, we both had the same values and religion. My husband had his own business and had quit college before I met him (he was very young; only 23) and was very successful. I had just finished my master's in education and was teaching. One day I came home from work, right after we got married and he said he was going to register for some classes at ASU, because he was embarrassed to say that his wife had a master's degree and he was a HS grad. Later he told me that I was the first person who ever thought he was smart and encouraged him! He is now the director of a very large division (200+ people) in a software company and he doesn't ever forget what it took for him to get to where he is.
We will be married 29 years in December. At first, I didn't want kids, but then I got obsessed with the idea; we lost our first baby when I was eight months pregnant. If we could get through that in our twenties, we could do anything! We had the two boys when we were young and are very happy with that decision. I think the trick to having kids and a good marriage is that we put the marriage and the relationship first. We didn't ignore our kids, who have turned out to be quite nice young men, but we always went out as a couple on the weekends, took vacations alone, and had a social life apart from the stuff we did with the kids, even when we both were working. One thing that helped was that my husband took an equal role in the parenting and he was the one who stayed home with son #1 when he was born, for the first 8 months.
We have a lot more common interests now than we did in the beginning (cycling!). For years I was the one running off to exercise while he did stuff around the house.
All of our friends in AZ are now divorced. It's really sad. All of these couples waited a lot longer to have kids and always had more money than us when we were younger. We progressed as the years went on and now we are in a much better place than they are in many ways. I never would have predicted any of it.

teigyr

11-04-2008, 02:58 AM

I think there have been some fantastic stories here.

If I look back on failed relationships, I'd say I knew they'd fail beforehand only I didn't acknowledge it. As I started figuring out what I wanted in my life, I started looking at those "this person is perfect only..." thoughts as warnings.

I never did think marriage was a necessity. I'm really good with life as it is (or was good with life as it was) and am more the independent sort. Right back around the time I met DH though I was really tired of dating. I went to a LOT of fun places but I guess I wanted normalcy and quiet time and just to be myself around someone. After a night of frustration (it was at work, I worked graveyard) I got home and e-mailed a friend. I told him that my life would be perfect if he found me a guy who worked where he worked. It was my birthday, I was living in a strange/different city where I didn't know anyone really, and the e-mail was very uncharacteristic. My friend said he knew someone who would be perfect for me. Turns out, DH had heard about me too.

After relationships filled with drama, I have found that this relationship is peaceful. We have fun. We trust each other. We are friends.

More than having shallow things in common (ie liking the same type of food), we feel the same way about commitment, goals, and what we want from marriage and a relationship. We have a mix of responsibility (no kids, just five cats and a house) and juvenile antics.

There is never a reason to rush into anything. When it is right, you know.

I can't say that we've had obstacles that have destroyed our relationship. As far as things enhancing it, I'm not that difficult to please. DH said he'd run a race with me (he's not a runner) and I am positively giddy with excitement. DH is pretty appreciative when I remember to pick up my shoes. While there IS romance in relationships, it's the little things that are the best and are the most romantic. I think people who write romance novels wouldn't appreciate it but I do and DH does.

Lastly, I read a quote once about marriage and about how you wouldn't disown a parent or grandparent because you "grew apart". While I was married before DH, the same mindset wasn't with that person. I do realize that people DO grow apart but it was important to me to know that if I got remarried, the person I married would realize that it went a bit beyond dating. It was really great meeting someone (also previously married) that felt as I did. The point of it all is our relationship is important to each of us and we will do what it takes to nurture it. We also have the commitment to stay together. There is so much calmness in that.

I'm still really sucky about picking up my shoes. DH is the better person. Between cat boxes that he cleans (I was the cat woman) and shoes (he built me a room for shoes so you'd think I could put them away) and everything else he does, I am incredibly lucky. When you're ready, I hope for the same for you :) Good relationships can only enhance who you are, they don't define it.

sfa

11-04-2008, 05:45 AM

I never really had marriage as a goal for myself. It wasn't something I was against in any way, and my parents had a great relationship (still do!) so I had a good model right in front of me for a successful marriage. But I was more interested in other things--getting my degree, travelling, finding work I loved. So no one was more surprised than I was when I met a guy when I was 19 years old and knew (o.k., it took me most of a year to "know"--I didn't trust my own judgment and we were dating long distance before the era of cheap flights and email) that he was the one. But even then I took it slow--I still wanted to finish my degree, go to graduate school, travel, etc. I knew I had to be completely happy and comfortable with my own life before I'd commit to marriage. We finally married when I was 25, and I thought at the time that maybe I was still a bit too young! My husband was also very cautious and in no hurry--he had married young and was divorced when we met (he's almost 11 years older than me) and wanted to make absolutely sure he was making the right decision. He said he wouldn't even consider marriage again for at least five years after his divorce.

That was nearly 15 years ago and we're still happily married, although it hasn't always been "happily ever after." There's something like a 75% divorce rate among parents of autistic children, and we often get the "how do you do it?" question from people. But I think going into the marriage knowing that it wouldn't always be blissful and romantic was a great start, along with going into it knowing that we both were completely happy with who we were as individuals. Add to that a good dose of flexibility, mutual respect, lots of common interests and a few uncommon ones, patience and a good sense of humor. That's how we do it.

Sarah

arielmoon

11-04-2008, 06:01 AM

This thread rocks!

I was in a relationship with guy, I met in college, for 10 years. When we met I had very low self esteem and a negative outlook. I didnt want to get married and become a statistic. He and I had some things in common and we ended up buying a farm which was my dream. So after 10 years his mom asked if she made all the arrangements would we get married and at that point I figured we were committed. So we got married in 1999. Then I got really healthy inside and out and discovered we were in fact very different. We divorced 4 years later.

Since then I have had 2 relationships that were nice but just not it. I am really picky so I am probably limiting the playing field substantially. I would rather be alone than with a negative, pessimistic, unhealthy person.

Lately I have been thinking that I live in the wrong place to try and meet a happy like minded active, animal loving vegan!

Irulan

11-04-2008, 06:02 AM

The physical part of a relationship, I think, gets overrated and after 10 years, we are in a comfortable, low key kinda rhythm that suits me. Physical closeness is much more important.

mmm beg to disagree. Sure I think intimacy changes over the years, but at least for us, the sex has gotten better and better and better over the years. We make a point of keeping that part of our relationship on track and part of our focus. We couldn't have what we have without the other parts of our marriage really working well. We are 29 years into this thing, and I just can't imagine "it" being any better.

I.

salsabike

11-04-2008, 06:03 AM

I wanted to say one more thing. For every Veronica who met her husband when they were really young, there's another like me who met the right guy after the age of 30. The first time I "almost got married", when I was 23, it was very much a kind of "Well, I'm finishing graduate school...it must be about the right time to get married" thought process. That guy was very likable and all, but the driving force was a sort of intellectual conviction that it was "time" to get married. And it would have been a mistake (we called off a big wedding the week before, which is a story in itself).

So...there is no right timetable for this. That's what I meant by take your time, don't rush.

Andrea

11-04-2008, 06:08 AM

I met my 1st husband when I was in high school. At the time, we were perfect for each other and became best friends. A year & a half later, at the disapproval of my parents but the approval of his, we got married.
Fast forward 7 (mostly happy) years- I'm about to graduate with my master's degree, have a wonderful job lined up, and budding hopes of becoming a national-level cyclist. He's still going to college on & off (as in signing up, going to classes, then dropping them when they start getting too difficult) while trying to survive financially with growing debt (student loans and various irresponsible purchases) and hopping between jobs in retail. I had been trying to support him however I could for so long, but finally decide that my future looks brighter without him in the picture. We get divorced. It's very, very painful to see someone that you still care about spiral down to the lowest point in their life as a direct result of your actions. It was tough, but I kept telling myself that my hopes and dreams no longer deserved to be compromised.

Around the time that marriage was hitting the rocks, I started training and bike racing a LOT. I was somewhat poor at the time, and found another local racer that wanted to split travel costs to go to more races. We became friends, though I didn't really reveal much about my personal life. Turns out, I left my hubby the day before a race weekend. Subsequently had a HORRIBLE race, and finally told my race pal what was going on (he was very understanding... he let me borrow his race wheels that day, too...). In the following months, we continue to be great friends- racing, training, and generally spending free time together.

We eventually became more than friends... and that's where I am now. He bought a house, and me & the kids (the furry type, of course) moved in. Life is better now than I could ever have imagined it. We balance each other perfectly. He is so understanding of me- my personality quirks, my dedication to training/racing (that can be really hard on a relationship)... and he doesn't mind them... which makes me so grateful to have found him.

As for marriage... I can say I don't know if it's in my future or not. Unlike a lot of unmarried couples, he would probably agree to get married tomorrow if I suggested it. I'm just not sure about it. Marriage seems like such an imposed value of society to me now. It's like a requirement- you must get a job, a spouse, and have 2.5 children, white picket fence, etc... Furthermore, going through a divorce was one of the most stressful things I've ever been through. Not that I see another divorce in my future if I were to get married again... but who ever does?

So that's my story. I am with someone who is, as far as I can tell, a perfect match for me. Where it goes from here? No idea- I'm just playing things as they're dealt right now :D

Brandi

11-04-2008, 06:09 AM

to what do i attribute our success? We made a commitment to stay together. Doesn't matter if i can't stand him today; I know tomorrow, I'll get over what I'm mad about and he'll still be there to love me. And vice versa. It works.
I third that! My mom has been married 4 times! She runs away when trouble starts. That is not what you do. How can the other person depend on you and trust that you will be there when times are tough if you run away.
I met my dh when I was 19 and he was 29. I came from a seoiusly broken family and had a lot to learn about relationships. I am still learning going on 22 years now with dh. He is my best friend period. He pushes me when I am lazy and he supports alomost everything I do. He always has an opinion and thinks he is right. But I know he is not always right even when he doesn't. I can't imagine my life without him. And to be honest if goes before me I don't think I would get involved again. He is my complete relationship. I have come a long way since we first met and so has he. We are still very close and we often comment on how even after all this time we still find eachother very attractive. He rocks!

Brandi

11-04-2008, 06:13 AM

Oh by the way we were together 7 years and bought a house together before we got married. And we work together 24-7. Talk about having to be patient with eachother!

xeney

11-04-2008, 06:14 AM

My husband and I met when he was almost 22 and I was almost 25. I was engaged to somebody else and he had previously dated my niece (she introduced us). The attraction was about 95 percent physical and it was a totally doomed relationship: we actually hooked up in a bar.

We moved in together less than a year later to save money even though neither of us saw long-term prospects: doomed! We bought a house we could not quite afford when I was 28 and he was 25: doomed! We finally got married in 2004, when I was 35 and he was 32: doomed! Everyone knows that when those perennial live-together couples finally get married, they always break up within a year! And then we had a baby in 2007. Doomed, doomed, doomed!

It will be 15 years in May. I'd still hook up with him if I happened to bump into him in a bar again.

Brandi

11-04-2008, 06:22 AM

mmm beg to disagree. Sure I think intimacy changes over the years, but at least for us, the sex has gotten better and better and better over the years. We make a point of keeping that part of our relationship on track and part of our focus. We couldn't have what we have without the other parts of our marriage really working well. We are 29 years into this thing, and I just can't imagine "it" being any better.

I.
Right on! Sometimes I am in aww over our's. You would think after alomost 22 years you would be bored or something. But it never get's dull for either of us. Sure we have had a few bad spells. He was taking a medication once that really hurt that part of our relationship. We fixed that once we figured it out. He is so attractive to me. And I to him. Even though I am not that cute tight bodied 19 year old he first met. But I look pretty good for a 40 year old. And my dh who is 50 can ride like the wind and looks really good for his age. People think he is my age!

Geonz

11-04-2008, 06:22 AM

I'm 48 and single/

I keep forgetting to be unhappy. I am loved and I love well, and deeply; just not domestically, or something like that. I am, in some ways, freer to share and give because I don't have the responsibilities that come with family.

Whatever you do, don't let the idea that your peers are "in relationships" make you feel like you have to have one. Just like a vegetarian can have a well-balanced diet without meat, a woman can have a well-balanced life without it, too :D

Aggie_Ama

11-04-2008, 06:27 AM

I don't even know when I met my husband. We both bowled competitively and I feel like I must have discovered he existed around 14-15. He thought I was stuck up and didn't care to know me. Truth is I am very shy and standoffish when strangers approach me.

We started dating when I was 16 after he decided might as well ask since my friends said I liked him and I was "cute". We got engaged when I was 19, married at 22. My parents insisted I finish college first and I am glad I did because being married and not having parents to help with the bills gets really hard really fast.

We have been married 5.5 years and it has definitely not been all roses. I guess so far what makes it work is we have changed a lot but we continue to grow up together instead of apart. We fight for us because we both feel the sum is better than the parts. We have been through hell, hurt each other, close family death, serious illnesses, sick parents, being pretty broke, moving, changing jobs, disappointment in careers, college. I am not the same girl and sometimes I don't know how he became the man he is from the 17 year old boy who took me to a movie. But we accept that we changed and overall we like our 27 and 28 year old selves a heck of a lot more.

Did I ever think I would marry the boy I fell for in high school? Heck no! But if you find someone you will fight with and fight for and still love 11 years later you stop looking at your timeline. We don't have kids, not sure we will so there is a dynamic that may strain or strengthen us.

There is no time anyone must be ready, you just hope you know yourself well enough to make the right choice and hope your partner is the same way. I still think marriage is a crap shoot. You don't fail always because you were too lazy to work at it and you don't succeed because you were determined not to fail. There are so many other variables.

My own parents have been married 33 years. Somedays I think they are completely dysfunctional, other days I think they have the perfect marriage. Somedays my mom would say "totally f-ed up" and some days "strong and perfect" to describe them. Sometimes in the same day. They fight for them and it has worked for 33 years.

Biciclista

11-04-2008, 06:34 AM

Lastly, I read a quote once about marriage and about how you wouldn't disown a parent or grandparent because you "grew apart".

The point of it all is our relationship is important to each of us and we will do what it takes to nurture it. We also have the commitment to stay together. There is so much calmness in that.

WELL SAID TEIGYR!

All of our friends in AZ are now divorced. It's really sad. All of these couples waited a lot longer to have kids and always had more money than us when we were younger. We progressed as the years went on and now we are in a much better place than they are in many ways. I never would have predicted any of it.

Crankin, this happened to a lot of our friends too, friends we actually chose because they had long term marriages like ours, and we have watched; scandalized while one guy is now married to a pot smoking woman his daughter's age, and another, where the former wife is now out exploring her sexuality...
It's lonely out here! But It can be done, and it's nice to read stories like yours and Teigyr's and a couple others!!!

I think you need to be best friends with your partner.

BOY I AGREE!!

We have never had a fight.
(you mean like arguing, right?)
Uh, we haven't fought once this week :cool::D:cool::D
we fight a lot!

you should expect that if you date for 3 months before you get married. :p

but I wouldn't trade him or the life I've had with him for ANYTHING!

Pax

11-04-2008, 06:34 AM

My Partner and I met at work, we felt a connection and became good friends, as time passed we acknowledged an attraction and discussed what we wanted from the other and what we were willing to give. I was 29 and she was 30, it was a good thing for us that we were a bit older or it never would have worked...I was too wild when I was younger and she was too staid, we wouldn't have connected very well.

We're approaching 19 years together and she's still the love of my life.

indigoiis

11-04-2008, 06:45 AM

As independent as I like to think myself, I definitely have maintained throughout my adult years some concept of fairytale romance.

I was first married from age 21-27, divorced, immediately into another head-over-heels romance with a man who was (is) perfect for me. I knew it, he knew it, but he couldn't commit - he was a bachelor true - not the kind who goes out partying with his guy friends and plays around, but the kind who stays home and builds stuff and keeps a clean house and is happy reading for hours and being by himself. It was really hard for me for a long time. We broke up right before 9/11. It was so hard and I was very unhappy and started drinking heavily. I dated around, but he just stayed single and happy in his world (although he says now it was the loneliest and saddest time of his life.) I started dating another guy but could not "concentrate" on the relationship because I was always thinking about what I lost. Finally, in 2003, after a family emergency that brought us back together, Mr. Indy and I were (think Peaches n Herb) re-united. I quit smoking and drinking soon after and I think he saw in that my commitment to being a healthier person for him to spend his life with, and he asked me to marry him in 06. We got married two weeks later.

I have to say, I wake up every morning thanking my lucky stars. I get teary-eyed thinking about what might have happened in my life - without his companionship and support in everything (the drinking problems - he always stuck it out.) He is truly the perfect person for me - we both have our quiet and our privacy but we really dig being with each other. He is everything I could want in a guy - he's strong, healthy, bicycles, can fix stuff, likes to travel, loves animals, loves books and old antiques, and cooks and cleans up after himself. He steers clear of decisions regarding my daughter, but offers support when I need it as a parent.

I know this all sounds like one of those corny radio shout-outs.

But, for me, this life and this relationship suits me to a T. He had the patience to stick it out, and I had the persistance to keep him in my life, in one way or another. And it never would have happened had I not married the first husband, as part of the reason for the breakdown of the first marriage led me to the conversations that opened up the door to the second.

Everyone is different.
That's my story.

ikkin

11-04-2008, 06:48 AM

Great thread! Here's my relationship history for ya... :)

I was head over heels "in love" with a depressed guy in college. He was everything I thought I wanted- extremely smart, hilarious, athletic. I chased him relentlessly for a year and a half, finally convinced him to give it a try, rode an emotional roller coaster for two years. He left for the Peace Corps after college and I suddenly and unexpectedly felt liberated. I learned a ton from him and will always care for him, but I sent the Dear John letter two months after he left. He was devastated. I felt awful but knew it was right.

Soon after I met his Polar Opposite. Polar Opposite was fun, happy, hard-working, etc. Polar Opposite also lived in downtown Boston and I was in my early twenties. Had a ton of fun dating Polar Opposite for a couple years but always knew it just wasn't right long-term. We were just too different. But I was too chicken to break up with him.

And then I met the Hubby.

BAM. It sounds so cheesy, but I KNEW RIGHT AWAY. We had (and have) some weird timeless connection- I felt like I knew him in a previous life. The feeling was mutual. He basically stole me away from the Polar Opposite, although my relationship with PO was sketchy at that time anyway.

A year after meeting he proposed in the middle of a 5 day backpacking trip near Lake Tahoe.

5 months into our engagement we had a mutual freak-out, got scared (we are both very independent people, and the looming marriage was pretty intimidating) got some help.

The day of my wedding (which was AWESOME and in a barn in Vermont with a Bluegrass band, BBQ and our closest friends) I had a huge pit in my stomach and felt like bolting when I had to say "I do...".

But I said it anyway. Thank goodness.

We just celebrated our 1 year anniversary and I am amazed at how much I've learned- both about myself and about him- in 12 short months. The coolest part is I'm just starting to realize how infinite that learning curve really is. I never thought I could actually love him MORE, but I do. In a deeper, more committed way. The butterflies are over, mostly, but they've been replaced with the solid comforting consistency and enduring love of an Irish Wolfhound. I look forward to coming home to him every day. He feels the same way.

We are partners, friends, lovers. He makes me laugh. At the world, but most importantly at myself. We are learning to be married together. We forgive quickly and easily and do not expect perfection or mind-reading. It is not always romantic. It is not always fun. But it is AWESOME. And it is right. For us.

Good luck!

ikkin

11-04-2008, 06:59 AM

Right on! Sometimes I am in aww over our's. You would think after alomost 22 years you would be bored or something. But it never get's dull for either of us. Sure we have had a few bad spells. He was taking a medication once that really hurt that part of our relationship. We fixed that once we figured it out. He is so attractive to me. And I to him. Even though I am not that cute tight bodied 19 year old he first met. But I look pretty good for a 40 year old. And my dh who is 50 can ride like the wind and looks really good for his age. People think he is my age!

oh, and more more thing related to the story above. i'm 29. the first time my hubby and i had sex i was 26 and it was literally AWFUL! the worst sex ever! awkward, embarrassing, etc. and it came on the tail of this totally romantic night with a fire and candles and all that cheese! :eek: it took a decent amount of time for us to find, ahem, our "stride" physically. :o but we never made an issue of it. never focused on what was wrong. and now, three years later, we're WAY better together. we laugh about that first time now. and we just keep improving, it just keeps getting more and more toe curling and fun. ;):D:o

for what its worth...

newfsmith

11-04-2008, 08:07 AM

Start with the upshot: next March Dan & I will celebrate our 40th wedding anniversary. We love and treasure each other, both of us having had the experience of waiting for the other to come out of major surgery, and realizing that the most important person in our world was in that bed with all those tubes. We have gone through our personal rough spots and rough patches in our marriage, but we have never considered that we wanted to separate. It is hard to say why our bond has stayed firm, all logic says we should not have gotten married at all. We did just about everything "wrong" according to the marriage counselers.

Dan's father was a best-selling author, mine was a hog-farmer. Dan's mother was also an author and an artist, mine was a farmer's wife and Avon representative. Commonality: our parents were self-employed.

Dan grew up in Scarsdale, NY; I grew up on a farm 7 miles from a town of 3,700. Commonality: good elementary education, Dan in one of the best school systems in the country, me in the intensely personal 1 room school house with a caring teacher.

Dan was raised as an agnostic Jew. I was raised a Methodist.

Dan went to MIT at 16, with advanced placement. I went to the U. of Wisconsin with deficiencies in foreign language, English and Math.

We met in a lab, had one date then Dan left the country for 3 months. We wrote daily about everything we thought about. Dan called on Christmas day to propose. The connection was so bad that neither of us was sure of what we had heard. He returned in Jan., we were married in March. To everyone's astonishment, we didn't have our first child for 5 years.

I sometimes think we thought more about our lives and dreams in those months Dan was away than we would have if he had stayed on campus. At any rate, we had written about a lot of issues that don't get mentioned in ordinary dating. When you write something, then wait 7 or 8 days to hear the response, it tends to make you more honest. You can't just say "Oh yeah, I love kids too" as casually as you say "Wasn't that a great movie?". There is greater intention in the written word.

How did we know we were ready? I've no idea. We had both been watching each other before our first date, and both had avoided sitting down at the post-course party until we were the only ones standing and could sit next to each other. Without having even talked, we both had keyed on each other. I'm fairly practical, but I guess I do believe in love at first sight.

tulip

11-04-2008, 09:53 AM

Lastly, I read a quote once about marriage and about how you wouldn't disown a parent or grandparent because you "grew apart".

But I would wager that most of us do not live with our parents or grandparents, nor do we want to, particularly in an intimate way. Parents/grandparent relationship is very different from any kind of matrimonial relationship--however you define it.

If the marriage has no soul left, for whatever reason, why stay in a marriage? My marriage was great for the first seven years, just okay for the next four, and then it really went down hill for the last two. The story wrapped up, no need to drag it out any longer. Could we have done things differently? Easy to say Yes now, with hindsight.

It's so easy to judge people who break up or divorce, but I can tell you that it's very difficult and heartbreaking, and also sometimes extremely necessary.

Best wishes for you Ana, on your life's adventures and whatever paths you decide to travel upon.

Biciclista

11-04-2008, 10:13 AM

It's so easy to judge people who break up or divorce, but I can tell you that it's very difficult and heartbreaking, and also sometimes extremely necessary.

Best wishes for you Ana, on your life's adventures and whatever paths you decide to travel upon.

I'm sorry if you felt judged by what we have said. The fact is, my marriage went through some very rough times, including separations.
But one day we looked at each other and realized we were starting to go through the motions. We loved each other too much to watch our marriage go down the tubes. So the both of us (and that's the key, it takes TWO people
to make a marriage work) sat down and scheduled an entire year of weekends, one a month, which would be OUR time. We scheduled hikes, movies, ferry rides, bike rides, all sorts of things that we would do together, our time. It brought joy and romance back into our marriage. and, in fact,
I actually started riding my bike seriously because I realized that my DH and I didn't have any activities any longer that we both liked to do. AND NOW LOOK AT US! :eek::eek::eek:

The originator of this thread asked us what worked for us, and this is what worked for me.

Pax

11-04-2008, 10:26 AM

Ana

11-04-2008, 10:38 AM

Don't feel pressured to be in a relationship or be married or whatever. If you happen to be happy and single, that's great! but don't feel like you need a boyfriend/husband, because there's nothing worse than being in a relationship with someone who's not right for you.

I completely agree. I am a strong, independent woman and view relationships as something that should enhance and enrich my life. I also very much enjoy doing my own thing :) My curiosity about others' relationships mostly originated from my contemplative state.

Thank you for sharing! :D

Keep it coming ;) :D

Crankin

11-04-2008, 10:54 AM

I think Mimi echoed what I already said. The marital relationship has to come before anything... kids, parents, your bike, whatever. Some people dedicate themselves entirely to their kids and then they wonder why there is nothing left in their relationship when they look around 18 years later and they have nothing in common with their spouse. Women feel guilty for taking time for themselves and see it as being selfish. I never felt like that and I recently learned that "self care" is an important concept in counseling. It's emphasized a lot in my course work. If you don't feel good about your own stuff, then your kids do pick up on that.
The best compliment I had was when one of my kids told me that we were an excellent role model for a good marriage. This was after I had told him that our friends were getting a divorce and he was "double checking" to make sure we weren't going to go down the same road. He was 21, so this stuff affects even grown kids. Then, about two hours later, my other son asked me the same thing when I gave him the news about our friends. So, you never know what the kids are observing as you interact with your significant other.

GraysonKelly

11-04-2008, 02:56 PM

I can honestly say that I dont know the answer to your questions but I had all of them when my partner and I started dating when I was 22 and she was 21. Our relationship went through a lot of stuff including a 2 year period where we weren't together but still living together (talk about AWKWARD!) When we got back together we learned a lot of stuff that we still remind each other that we learned. This is just the stuff that works for us, I have no idea how others feel about it.
1. We learned that there has to be a me, you, and us to our relationship. I am extremely independent and have lots of interests. She only had me for a very long time. She was too dependent on me for everything in her life and it was extremely stressful.
2. There is need in love and it's okay. For a very long time I didn't get that. due to some issues that I had, I was terrified of needing her at all therefore I kept her at arm's length a lot. It's ok.
3. You can't fight and be hurt unless you love someone.
4. There is no substitute for communication.
When I first fell for her I couldln't imagine anything being more important. When things fell apart, I couldn't imagine anything be more painful.
But we got through it. There was a lot of hurt. A lot of anger. But in the end we did what we didn't do to begin with...we learned. It was a good thing.
I say all the time we are striving to be "imperfectly perfect" In my experience we may not be perfect, but our imperfection make us darn close.
Just know in your heart that you want to make things work and realize that things will change...and that's okay. The important thing is to keep growing and changing as well.
Take care and follow your heart,
Gray

Presto

11-05-2008, 04:40 AM

Veronica

11-05-2008, 05:12 AM

I don't get it.

How does your relationship ruin the sanctity of my marriage? Friggin' narrow minded idiots...

As far as I'm concerned, you're still married.

Veronica

Grog

11-05-2008, 07:26 AM

I woke up this morning to discover I'm not married anymore.

If you are married, please take a good look at that precious right. Imagine how you would feel to wake up and discover you were no longer married, despite not one thing changing in your life, your love, or your church.

Appreciate what you have, every moment that you have it.

I'm finding this quite insane. *Big hug*

The good news is that your relationship is still there. And might become stronger as a result of this.

coyote

11-05-2008, 07:39 AM

My partner and I were each other's first loves. I was 18 and she was 20. Sadly it was just after Valentine's Day. I fell in love with her at first site. We were together for a few years, apart for a few years, back together again for a few years. Then we did not speak for close to 5 years. She came looking for me when I was in LA....I realized I had always loved her and that I could not wait to be with her. It took me about 6 months to settle my affairs in LA. A year later we were married...its been 8 years since then - almost 28 years since we first met.

I tribute the late marriage to us having been so young and stubborn. Drugs, alcohol, egoes lead us to a lot of hardtimes. And even in early sobriety we both had a lot of hurt to deal with. Time healed a lot of that.

She is my soul mate and although it seems like we speak 2 different languages at times - we are just meant to be together. I can't imagine a life without her.

michelem

11-05-2008, 09:11 AM

So, I know I'm jumping in here a little late, but thought I'd share a couple things that have helped us immensely.

My hubby and I got married a little later than most (we were both nearing 31). We were both pretty set in our ways and what a shock once we got married and started living together! I think we both thought we could just go along as usual, with the fringe benefits of being married. We didn't realize how much work it would be to create a "we" rather than a "you and me." In our case the first few years were ROUGH! We were still trying to be independent and we certainly didn't want to be co-dependent (which is what we thought of as the alternative). The solution? INTER-dependence! And, boy, what a difference that has made. :)

Another thing we needed to learn was to let go of the 50-50 concept -- if I see you do your part, then I'll do my part; but, if I don't see you do your part, then you better believe I'm not gonna do my part! We had to start looking at ourselves contributing 100% to the marriage, whether or not the other was contributing anything at all. No, I'm not talking about becoming a slave or a doormat. We both committed to the concept, so that each of us was giving 100%. Granted, we don't live up to this 100% of the time, but we try and that makes all the difference.

Finally, I REALLY had to learn how to let go and let my husband be himself. Can you believe that the more I got after him to pick up after himself, etc., the more he dug in his heels and got defensive? The nerve of him! :p I had to learn that my world was not going to fall apart if the house wasn't perfectly in order. Also, that he was not out to get me or hurt me (which is how I took it when he left his socks on the floor or the dirty pb&j knife on the bare counter). And, amazingly, over the course of time, the less I nagged, the more he started picking up after himself ON HIS OWN! :D

Basically, we are The Odd Couple. I'm Felix and he's Oscar. From the outside, you would never think our relationship would work. He likes spicey, I like plain. He likes riding downhill with no hands, I'm clutching the brakes for dear life (give me uphill any day!), he likes basketball and football and lifting weights, I like ballet and figure skating . . . you get the picture. BUT, we are on the same page when it comes to spirituality, values, and loving each other. :o

So, there you have it in a nutty nutshell. Thanks for letting me share. :o

arielmoon

11-05-2008, 09:49 AM

Irulan

11-05-2008, 09:55 AM

(can we please keep the election out of these threads....)

Let's remember that OP was looking for experiences on the nature of relationships, and not the legal status of those relationships.

Biciclista

11-05-2008, 10:06 AM

Another thing we needed to learn was to let go of the 50-50 concept -- if I see you do your part, then I'll do my part; but, if I don't see you do your part, then you better believe I'm not gonna do my part! We had to start looking at ourselves contributing 100% to the marriage, whether or not the other was contributing anything at all. No, I'm not talking about becoming a slave or a doormat. We both committed to the concept, so that each of us was giving 100%. Granted, we don't live up to this 100% of the time, but we try and that makes all the difference..

Hey, I thought WE invented this concept! Thanks for bringing it up!!

and to all of you whose marriages are no longer considered such by their state, please remember that the most important part of a relationship is what is between the two of you. (although having a few legal rights would sure be nice too). I am sorry about the election results.

salsabike

11-05-2008, 02:03 PM

Another thing we needed to learn was to let go of the 50-50 concept -- if I see you do your part, then I'll do my part; but, if I don't see you do your part, then you better believe I'm not gonna do my part! We had to start looking at ourselves contributing 100% to the marriage, whether or not the other was contributing anything at all. No, I'm not talking about becoming a slave or a doormat. We both committed to the concept, so that each of us was giving 100%. Granted, we don't live up to this 100% of the time, but we try and that makes all the difference.

:o

Hey, I thought WE invented this concept! Thanks for bringing it up!!

No, my parents always told us that too: "A marriage isn't 50%-50%; it's 100%-100%." My dad also used to say, sometimes you should apologize even when you don't think you were wrong. I think they taught me how to leave room, if that makes any sense. I mean, leave room for both of us to be imperfect, to become better, to get a break, to be heard...whatever kind of room is needed so that people don't feel boxed in with no good place to turn. I'm babbling away insensibly but hope you all see what I'm trying to say.

mtbdarby

11-05-2008, 02:14 PM

I'm sorry if you felt judged by what we have said. The fact is, my marriage went through some very rough times, including separations.
But one day we looked at each other and realized we were starting to go through the motions. We loved each other too much to watch our marriage go down the tubes. So the both of us (and that's the key, it takes TWO people
to make a marriage work) sat down and scheduled an entire year of weekends, one a month, which would be OUR time. We scheduled hikes, movies, ferry rides, bike rides, all sorts of things that we would do together, our time. It brought joy and romance back into our marriage. and, in fact,
I actually started riding my bike seriously because I realized that my DH and I didn't have any activities any longer that we both liked to do. AND NOW LOOK AT US! :eek::eek::eek:

The originator of this thread asked us what worked for us, and this is what worked for me.

Such great advice! Mimi and Irulan - I love hearing about how you make/have made your marriages work. Such wisdom...

Although I am divorced I do not consider that relationship a failure. For me it was a vast learning experience and I would never have learned who I am or what I need from a relationship if it hadn't been for those 13 years.

To quote Dr. Phil "if the cost of being in a relationship is more than the cost of being yourself, than the cost is too much."

I learned to not give up "me" in a relationship. Compromise yes, but not at the cost of changing who I am. Resentment can build at an amazing pace.

It does take two people to make a relationship work but it only takes one person to tear it apart. If the other person wants out and is not willing to try, there is nothing you can do to change that other person. You just have to take care of yourself.

You have to be happy with who you are. You can not rely on someone else to make you happy.

Echoing the others...people are not mind readers. You have to be able to communicate.

Mistakes happen. Do not keep bringing up your partners mistakes in the present. You have to learn to forgive and LET GO.

I've been divorced for 3 years now. I'm happy with who I am and where I'm at and I'm not sure I'm ready to be in a relationship yet or ever. Maybe it's just what Geonz (Sue) said:D

Dar

RolliePollie

11-05-2008, 03:07 PM

Presto

11-05-2008, 05:41 PM

(can we please keep the election out of these threads....)

Let's remember that OP was looking for experiences on the nature of relationships, and not the legal status of those relationships.

Thank you, Irulan, for your support. That is why I didn't mention election, politics, or legalities in my post. I spoke only about my very personal reaction to the very personal experience of the nature of my relationship.

You young ladies will discover as you get older that there are miracles in every relationship God brings to you. Appreciate them. Be grateful for them. Imagine how you would feel if they were taken from you (by law, illness, death or separation). When you see this great gift before you, then you will find the strength and determination to create a full relationship and live it completely.

Appreciate every thing you have, every moment.

badger

11-05-2008, 09:50 PM

I've really enjoyed reading through this thread. Ana, I'm so glad you asked the question!

I'm 34, single, never married, never really had a long term relationship, and currently have no prospects. Lately I've started to realize I've pretty much given up on ever finding anyone, and unfortunately I'm starting to feel a little bitter about it. Reading all of these posts makes me realize how much I do want a relationship! It's just so hard to find a good guy (or any guy at all!)...and I'm not good at meeting new people. But I'm really good at being single and on my own, and I'm proud of myself for being independent. So if the right guy comes along, I'll be absolutely thrilled. But I'm not getting my hopes up!

I was 33 when I met my boyfriend. I, too, haven't had any meaningful long-term relationships and was wondering if there was anything wrong, or I just wasn't meant to be with anyone.

As trite as it was, I gave online dating a go. I was specific, I wrote down all that I wanted, and all that I DIDN'T want. I also just put my "ad" out, and didn't look at any of the guys' profiles. I just waited for what took my bait.

I'm glad that you're not wallowing and waiting for a guy to come along and change your life; you're going about your life and enjoying it. A guy should complement, not complete or complicate your life. I wish you all the best finding that special guy!

shootingstar

11-05-2008, 10:19 PM

I'm 34, single, never married, never really had a long term relationship, and currently have no prospects. Lately I've started to realize I've pretty much given up on ever finding anyone, and unfortunately I'm starting to feel a little bitter about it. Reading all of these posts makes me realize how much I do want a relationship! It's just so hard to find a good guy (or any guy at all!)...and I'm not good at meeting new people. But I'm really good at being single and on my own, and I'm proud of myself for being independent. So if the right guy comes along, I'll be absolutely thrilled. But I'm not getting my hopes up!

I was 31 when I met my partner. Before that I was getting impatient with life..so I bought my own home....was getting nicely into setting up my very own home...when several months later..he appeared in life.

And even after meeting my partner, I continued to live in and own my place --but he and I made many visits/stays between his and my place...by bike rides across the city. I suppose the tendency is that 2 people shortly move in to live together but we chose not to do that. And it was in hindsight good..and less stressful on his young teenage children (at that time) whom he had custody/visits arrangements with his ex.

I would like to share something with this forum:

My parents are in a traditional marriage...mother always a full-time housewife. She was picture bride...she never met her future husband for real until she stepped off the plane in Toronto direct from mainland China, to marry my father. She and Dad exchanged photos and wrote letters for a few months. Then just a year after marriage, they had their lst kid, me.

In such relationship, the woman is nearly at the mercy of her husband and often must defer to her hubby..unless she has the resources to leave.

Though the marriage isn't 100% perfect, for certain i know my mother knows she is incredibly lucky to marry a man who never abused her, is hardworking, patient ..and willingly shares household duties and cooking with her,......which is more rare in their generation during their aging years. Through their marriage, I am highly accustomed to a strong marriage as ongoing communication, trust and being united in values, how one runs their lifestyle, finances, etc.

Communication, trust and intimacy is top in our relationship. You have to be each other's sexual , but best friends for life, to make it work and to help one another grow like trees entwined in branches together, but deeply rooted beside one another and to bend well in winds, if necessary.

OakLeaf

11-06-2008, 04:08 AM

to help one another grow like trees entwined in branches together, but deeply rooted beside one another and to bend well in winds, if necessary.

What a beautiful metaphor!

ASammy1

11-06-2008, 10:10 AM

I am now 30 and was married at 25 to who I thought was my best guy friend. As the marriage went on, I realized he had a drinking problem and I was becoming codependent (which I didn't realize until later in therapy). In Feb 2007, I had had enough after many, many dangerous and embarassing drinking incidents. I told him I was looking for jobs out of state and he could either join me and work on our relationship/drinking problem or stay back-the choice was his. Two months later I was offered my job here in VA and never looked back. We decided we were going to put our house on the market and he would move to VA when the house sold.

Well.... two weeks after I moved, my best female friend of 15 years moved into my house with my husband sleeping in my marriage bed. I had a gut feeling of what was going on, but neither of them would own up to it. I just couldn't shake the feeling that something was wrong, so I hacked into his myspace account (his password was our dog's name-not exactly difficult to figure out!) and saw that they had been sending myspace love messages back and forth for weeks. A month later, she was pregnant. Needless to say, our divorce was finalized 6 months later.

Now here is the good news... 3 months after I moved to VA, I stopped into Walgreens on my way home from the gym. I was in the magazine aisle and I went to reach for a certain travel magazine. A guy who was also looking at magazines reached for the same magazine at the same time-cheesy!!! We laughed and struck up a conversation. He was really nice and I didn't know a soul in the area, so I gave him my business card. He called two days later and we've been inseparable ever since. I soon learned that he had gone through a similar situation about a year before me and that his divorce had just been finalized. Neither one of us had any kids either!

We've now been going strong for over a year and I have to say this is the healthiest and strongest relationship I have ever been in. We are very respectful of each other and while there is no immediate plan for marriage, we both know that we want to be together. We have some very similar interests and also very different interests. We do many things together, but also some apart. During the week, our lives are very hectic, but we always make time for each other on the weekends. We are a team. I have his back and he has mine.

I hope this goes to show that even the absolute worst situations can turn out wonderful. Had I not gone through what I did, I never would have met Zack. I am happier now than I have ever been in my adult life. It's amazing how your life can change with the drop of a hat :D

Biciclista

11-06-2008, 10:15 AM

Cool story, Asammy!
we wish you lots of luck. It sounds like that girlfriend of yours did you a HUGE favor!

ASammy1

11-06-2008, 02:37 PM

Hey Mimi! Thanks and yes she did!

Irulan

11-06-2008, 02:54 PM

And now the icing on cake.... drum roll please...

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND!!!

To gloat about something like is pretty sad, and the situation is a disaster, nothing like a baby growing up in an alcoholic home. (ok, maybe you aren't gloating but that is how it comes across to me on a web board. ) Look I know you are hurt and all that, but try to step out of that for a minute and see how this comes across.

I hope someone suggests Al-anon to her, and maybe to you too.
http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/

ASammy1

11-06-2008, 05:44 PM

I didn't mean to come off as gloating and I apologize if I offended. And you are absolutely right that the situation is very sad. I feel terrible for the baby. I was merely trying to show just how bad it was for me and how life did a complete 180. Maybe it was in bad taste on my part and for that I apologize.

Blueberry

11-06-2008, 06:21 PM

I don't think you came off as gloating. Certainly sounds like it would have benefited her to listen to you as you were going through that situation. I have every sympathy for the child - but the friend who knowingly put herself in that situation - I have a hard time.

CA

Irulan

11-06-2008, 06:59 PM

How can this be applied to the OP's request for wisdom, the good and the bad, help in understanding relationships...

I'm of the mind to comment that when relationships go bad (and I've been there, as close to divorce as you can get and not actually be there) it's never just one person's fault. It's always easy to point a finger and blame, but it's rarely the actions of just one person that makes a relationship go bad. The choices that build up to bad situations may not always be obvious, and we may not even be aware of them as they may be part of our internal baggage that we all have.

The best thing that ever happened to DH and me was a very good marriage counselor, a no nonsense type who got us both to pull our heads out of our asses and quit finger pointing, and to look at ourselves: both of us. It was really really tough as it is so much easier to blame everything that goes wrong on the other person.

I feel blessed to this day that underneath it all we both wanted to fix it, and were willing to do whatever it took - I know that is not always the case, and that some things aren't fixable. It was very very tough. I think plenty of folks would have bailed and not stuck it out, and maybe even repeated the same mistakes that got them into the place they were at becuase they didn't get at the root of it. And Ladies, I'm talking some messy, ugly stuff. I'll spare you the details. But we did it, we stuck it out and rebuilt, and I have a marriage I only could have dreamed of 10 years ago.

i.

Meaux

11-06-2008, 07:02 PM

I met my husband when I was 21 and he was 18. We worked together at Barnes and Noble. We started dating a few months later. I had just gotten out of a very intense, but short, relationship and was not at all interested in dating anyone. We have been together for seven years, and have been married for three. He has supported me through finishing college, my father's death, and making the agonizing decision to go back to school and change my career. He is truly my partner and my best friend. I can't say that our marriage is easy, but I will say that because we work at it, it is a lot sweeter. I truly believe that love comes in the strangest places when you are not looking for it.

michelem

11-06-2008, 10:37 PM

Irulan,

Thanks so much for sharing. What words of wisdom! And what an inspiration to us all.

KSH

11-07-2008, 08:26 AM

First off, do not let the fact that everyone around you is getting married, make you feel like YOU should be getting married. There is a lot of unspoken pressure on women to get married. It's like if you are not married... there must be something wrong with you. There isn't. It's OK not to be married. :)

When I was in my early to mid 20's all I wanted was to find my soul mate and get married. I was engaged 1 official time and had 2 other guys ready to propose before I married "the one" in 1999.

I met "the one" (let's call him Jim), at a house party where I went to meet up with this other guy. That guy was a jerk so Jim and I started chatting. We clicked immediately. Fireworks! Sparks! BAM!

Over the course of a month we were attached to each other (as much as we could be since I was traveling on business) all the time and he moved in. After 30 days we KNEW we wanted to get married. It just felt so right, so perfect. My soul mate had be found... FINALLY!

We got married a year later. I figured a long engagement was a wise decision.

For the next year we had our fights about various things. But what couple doesn't fight. We had some issues in the bedroom and went to a therapist before getting married. It didn't do anything for us, because the person he presented to her wasn't who he was at home. He was a great manipulator.

But he was the one. I just KNEW it. I had faith in my feelings and my decision.

The night before the wedding he and I were fighting about stuff, the usual stuff... bedroom stuff... his insecurities... his jealousness... etc. A thought passed through my head, "Do not marry this man". But then I realized that I had all these people in Mexico to watch us getting married, and there was no way in hell I was losing face by calling off the wedding. I chalked it up to pre-wedding jitters and forged ahead. We got married the next day.

The fights continued. As time went on I began to realize that the man he TOLD me he was... wasn't the man he was in reality.

When we met he told me how driven he was and how he wanted to be successful in life, but as time went on it was obvious he was not motivated to do anything. He was out of work a lot, fired a lot, etc. Didn't know what he wanted to do for a job, floundered and really enjoyed not working.

I on the other hand, I'm driven. I have a professional job. I have a college degree. I'm organized and I have my life together. My life was taking care of him and the household. I didn't get any help from him. When he worked he paid his half of the bills, that was it.

At one point he was out of work, I was working a full time job and working at a club as the coat check on the weekends. He was out partying with his friends, and I was working.

Trust me, I could go on and on about all the miserable stuff he did.

But I was married. There was NO WAY I was going to leave a marriage. For better or worse. I was there to stay. I just had to tolerate his behavior and try to keep the fighting to a minimum between us.

Towards the end of our marriage he had decided he was going to work at an after hours club. Which I would have tolerated if he would have had a day job. Nope. Forget the day job. He just wanted to work at the after hours club, do drugs (I later found out about), and party.

I went on a business trip and when I came back, this was February 2004, I told him I wasn't putting up with his crap anymore. He had to treat me good. Period.

He said he wanted a divorce. I said fine. And told him to get the h@ll out. He left and never came back. It was the happiest day of my life. I certainly didn't love him anymore and I had grown to dislike him greatly. Just the sight of him the last few months of our marriage, made me sick.

I later found out he was doing meth, and cheating on me. Nice.

What I learned from this experience:

1) You can't KNOW someone after only a few months or even a year or two. People have a vision of who they are, and it's not always reality. Only over time can you really start to understand who a person is at their core, by watching their behavior over time. This is why I cringe when I see someone just jump into marriage.

2) Marriage is serious. It sounds like fun... you get sucked into the fairy tale... being swept off your feet and into love. But the fairy tale ends and you are stuck with this person day in and day out.

3) When you are married, there is no way out if that person treats you like crap, unless you are willing to get divorced. I didn't want to get divorced so I had to tolerate him treating me bad. Me asking him to be a good person didn't do it. He didn't care how he treated me and I couldn't change that.

4) Very few people who are married are happy. Some are. But MOST are not. Most are in the marriage for the kids, it's the right thing, etc.

5) Marriage is all about tolerating someone else. They will change over time. You will have tolerate it. For example, my ex got to where he refused to shower more than twice a week. I asked him to shower, he would not. There was nothing I could do. I had to tolerate it.

As you can probably guess, I will never get married again. I have been dating my boyfriend of 5 years and we don't even live together. I don't want to be trapped. Ever again. I want to be happy. And no one, not any man, is going to be charge of my life or happiness, ever again. :)

Biciclista

11-07-2008, 09:09 AM

KSH, please don't take this personally. From what you wrote, you did the right thing ditching that guy. I just want people to understand that a good marriage between two flawed people IS possible.

First off, do not let the fact that everyone around you is getting married, make you feel like YOU should be getting married. There is a lot of unspoken pressure on women to get married. It's like if you are not married... there must be something wrong with you. There isn't. It's OK not to be married. :)
.
I absolutely agree.

the night before MY wedding, I thought; "I am making a big mistake, I shouldn't marry this guy" But I did.
And sometimes it was really tough, but I am glad I went through with it. In the eyes of any sane person who was around me at that time, it was obvious that I had made a mistake. But that's precisely why I am telling you guys about my marriage (see post above) because there's no RULE Not all happy marriages have a 2 year engagement and a church wedding. Not all unhappy marriages started with a drunk groom and a trip to Las Vegas

1) You can't KNOW someone after only a few months or even a year or two. People have a vision of who they are, and it's not always reality. Only over time can you really start to understand who a person is at their core, by watching their behavior over time. This is why I cringe when I see someone just jump into marriage.
You can apply this rule even further. You never really know someone (know how they are going to react in a given situation) so what's the difference between waiting 3 months or 3 years?
Like so many other things in life, marriage is a crapshoot.

2) Marriage is serious. It sounds like fun... you get sucked into the fairy tale... being swept off your feet and into love. But the fairy tale ends and you are stuck with this person day in and day out.

You're absolutely right here. Once the shine is off, you can see the warts and smell their dirty socks. BUT, with TWO people making a commitment, it's worth it.

3) When you are married, there is no way out if that person treats you like crap, unless you are willing to get divorced. I didn't want to get divorced so I had to tolerate him treating me bad. Me asking him to be a good person didn't do it. He didn't care how he treated me and I couldn't change that.
Right. Person #2 didn't make a commitment. That just won't work!

4) Very few people who are married are happy. Some are. But MOST are not. Most are in the marriage for the kids, it's the right thing, etc.
Very few people are happy. I have been unhappy with myself but happy with my marriage. today I am happy about both. It's worth working on and fighting for. My life is so richer having been married, a partnership with a person based on love, respect and compromise...

5) Marriage is all about tolerating someone else. They will change over time. You will have tolerate it. For example, my ex got to where he refused to shower more than twice a week. I asked him to shower, he would not. There was nothing I could do. I had to tolerate it.

Marriage is also about picking your battles. I can get totally freaked out about coffee cups everywhere or I can save my energy for more important stuff.

You're ABSOLUTELY right. If you don't want to waste energy doing this compromise dance, and ha, raising kids, that's even harder than being married. And you don't get the benefit of happily ever after. Your kids are going to grow up and leave you; so PLEASE don't just get married to have kids.

KSH

11-07-2008, 09:34 AM

KSH, please don't take this personally. From what you wrote, you did the right thing ditching that guy. I just want people to understand that a good marriage between two flawed people IS possible.

.
I absolutely agree.

the night before MY wedding, I thought; "I am making a big mistake, I shouldn't marry this guy" But I did.
And sometimes it was really tough, but I am glad I went through with it. In the eyes of any sane person who was around me at that time, it was obvious that I had made a mistake. But that's precisely why I am telling you guys about my marriage (see post above) because there's no RULE Not all happy marriages have a 2 year engagement and a church wedding. Not all unhappy marriages started with a drunk groom and a trip to Las Vegas

You can apply this rule even further. You never really know someone (know how they are going to react in a given situation) so what's the difference between waiting 3 months or 3 years?
Like so many other things in life, marriage is a crapshoot.

You're absolutely right here. Once the shine is off, you can see the warts and smell their dirty socks. BUT, with TWO people making a commitment, it's worth it.

Right. Person #2 didn't make a commitment. That just won't work!

Very few people are happy. I have been unhappy with myself but happy with my marriage. today I am happy about both. It's worth working on and fighting for. My life is so richer having been married, a partnership with a person based on love, respect and compromise...

Marriage is also about picking your battles. I can get totally freaked out about coffee cups everywhere or I can save my energy for more important stuff.

You're ABSOLUTELY right. If you don't want to waste energy doing this compromise dance, and ha, raising kids, that's even harder than being married. And you don't get the benefit of happily ever after. Your kids are going to grow up and leave you; so PLEASE don't just get married to have kids.

Great commentary! :)

BTW- he ditched me. I hung on to the marriage until he said he wanted a divorce. But I certainly didn't fight it when he said he was leaving. I didn't suggest we work on it, I didn't wait around "just in case", I started dating someone 2 weeks later (who I am still with 5 years later).

Let me add this, I now know that I'm not made for marriage. I can be selfish and I want everything my way.

I think my decisions are the wisest most times and if someone doesn't want to go along with a decision of mine that seems to me, to be more intelligent, then I get annoyed and shut down.

Horrible to say, I know, but that is why I can only take people in small doses (aka: not live with them).

Of course it didn't help that I was married to a completely selfish and insecure man who only cared about the world revolving around him. Even though I am selfish, I still think of others and try to do things to make them happy. I did cater to him and take care of him.

With that said, I know never to get married again and I will not be having kids.

Crankin

11-07-2008, 11:39 AM

Thank you, Mimi for your apt comments. KSH, you seem like you know yourself well; but I do agree with Mimi in that very few PEOPLE are happy. People look to others to fulfill their dreams and that isn't going to happen. Most people go into marriage only caring about their dream wedding that they spend zillions on and never give a thought to what comes afterwards. I don't care if you are 19 or 39, but this seems to be the way it is.
I was married to a jerk before I met my husband. I knew the whole time it was wrong, but I still went ahead and did it, because I didn't want to be alone at the age of 22! Most people don't even know that I was married before and my own kids were shocked when they found out.
Everything I did the second time would have predicted disaster (moving in together after a month and getting married after six months) but we are even happier now, after 29 years. We've really never had any rough times, a few bad fights, but mostly we just talk about everything. And, I'm a pretty selfish person, too. But, I've become more caring because my husband proved to me that he was going to stick around no matter what.

Most people around where I live get married between the ages of 35-50. There's lots of first time moms who are in their forties. This presents a whole other bunch of issues; personally, I am glad I didn't wait. I had a job, a graduate degree, and felt like an adult at 26. I wasn't sure if I wanted kids, but when my husband was very close to getting himself "fixed," I suddenly became obsessed with having one. So, I knew that I really did want kids!
Like I said before, while you have to take care of yourself, the marital bond should come before any other relationships. For years my in laws went nuts because they thought I turned my husband into a "snob" because he finished his degree, got a good professional job, and moved back east. In a lot of cases, a husband (or wife) doesn't stand up to his or her parents over stuff like that. There never was a question here. When they learned they couldn't bully us or buy our affection, it calmed down, but never really went away.

Irulan

11-07-2008, 01:04 PM

Irulan,

Thanks so much for sharing. What words of wisdom! And what an inspiration to us all.

well thank you but it's only MY experience. There's a lot of different experience out there- a whole range of them. And everyone has different approaches, attitudes and awarenesses ( or not) that affect what their relationship experiences will be. This thread is a great example of the range of things people go through.

michelem

11-07-2008, 02:06 PM

Irulan,

So true, but I relate to yours the most! :o

smilingcat

11-10-2008, 12:04 PM

I wish I could have read this about 25 years ago... Wonderful advice and thoughts.

Well my ex- didn't respect me nor the marriage. didn't show up at appointments with counselors. Even changed counselors because my ex felt that the counselor was siding with me! and wasn't being impartial. did a no show on more than half the time. When my ex did show it was for the last 5 minuts of the appointment. It was awkward just sitting at the marriage counselors office like that. I always ended up apologizing for wasting their time.

I thanked my couselors for at least trying and they wished me well. The divorce was very much acrimonious, long and drawn out. I ended up having to pay alimony to my ex. for just over 3 years.

-------------------
Yes it has lot to do with respecting each other, respecting each others needs and desires. It's about working together.

When I was going through my protracted divorce, I met a woman who was going through her crazy divorce. We shared stories and became best of friends. We cried and laughed together and we supported each other in those difficult emotional times. And now she shares my house with me and she is my partner. We are the best of buds. Sometimes we disagree but I really value her for being her. She makes me laugh, she keeps me grounded. I can't make her laugh as much but I'm almost always there for her when she needs a friend.

We've been best of friends for past 17 years and I don't think either of us had to raise our voices at each other. :) We laugh together at my expense. And we overlook each others fault. I know I have mine and I have a pretty big skelton closet. She has hers too. But we do our best to ignore them. My partner is more of the artist type, very creative and I'm always awed by what she creates. My upbringing was "warm" in some respect in other respect it was harsh. My father has an MD degree with Phd in biochem. And I think he was a Rhode scholar? My mother doesn't say much. I being the eldest was expected to get both. So I tend to be bit more self critical and analytical. This is one of many faults I have. And because of all the faults we each have, we overlook it. Like the saying, "don't throw rocks in a glass house"

Its about give a lot take a little. I'm really happy to have my best friend and we share our lives together. We don't consider ourselves lesbians not that its bad or good. We just don't think we fit that mold. We are best of friends, a family (bit odd perhaps)...

smilingcat

deedolce

11-11-2008, 11:18 PM

Wow. What an incredible thread. By far my favorite out of many forums I frequent! I, too, wish I had read a thread like this 20+ years ago...

I grew up in a very uptight household. Never dated in high school, dated very little in college - and then I walked into an art class, and saw this tall, blue eyed graduate student. Wavy brown hair - broad shoulders, and a road cyclist. My professor was ailing, so he took over the class. The day after class was out, I went to pick up my piece from the gallery. He was just walking out the other door. I called out. We talked, and then I asked him out. I found out later, he had been waiting for me to show up, to ask me out. I beat him to the punch. :D 1 month later, he had moved in to my apartment. 3 months later, we eloped. I was 23, he 24. He kept telling me how he wanted to teach, and I envisioned a life as a professor's wife in a college town. :rolleyes:

After we finished school, he with his MFA, mine a BS, we moved to the city. He felt he had to show his work, before he could feel right teaching. So we worked, he did a couple of shows, never really sold his work, and got frustrated, working for a living, and not living off his art. 5 years later we had a son. 2 years later a daughter. I was always the 'easy going' one in my family, the middle child. So we did what he wanted to do, lived pursuing his dreams. It was hard. Little money, a frustrated artist. We never really fought: we also never talked about fears/hopes/dreams. So when he was away on a job - he started an affair. My newborn daughter was maybe 5 months old. I remember the day he walked in the room, and he was wrought: and he told me he was in love with someone else. I felt like someone had punched through my chest, and removed my heart. He told me he felt he was dead inside, with two young children, and his dreams going nowhere. All he did was work, day after day. He would always say to himself or me that all he had to do was '...pull himself up by the bootstraps.' But he never talked to me, and I didn't ask, overwhelmed myself with a newborn and a toddler. He said he still loved me too, and we didn't have to divorce if I didn't want to.

I asked him to consider counseling. He said okay, if it would help me deal with it. I think it woke up a part of me that had laid dormant for awhile.
To h3ll with that!! :mad: I filed for divorce. He left with a truckload of tools and the dog. I moved back to my mother's with a 2 year old and a 7 month old infant.

I stayed single for 12 years after that. I stayed a couple of years with my mother, then moved out because I was afraid of getting too dependent (my mom insisted on paying for everything, and helped watch my kids) so I moved an hour away, and through the years, went back to school in the evenings, got my credential, got a job, bought a house, raised my kids.

Then at work, there was a younger co-worker that was going through all kinds of drama. He seemed sweet, and cute, and he was suffering through an unfaithful wife that was moving out of state with her boyfriend, leaving him with 2 young kids. By then, my youngest was a 6th grader. I was missing male companionship keenly. So...we became fwb. I thought I could. I had my friends, my career, my home, I already had kids who spent every other weekend with their Dad. My fwb was 10 years younger, and he was a passionate lover, he was clearly bad 'relationship' material for a number of reasons, from being a 'drama junkie', bankrupt, pot smoker, etc...and I ended up learning a big lesson about myself. I can't be intimate and not get sucked in emotionally. Yep, I fell 'in love' with my young fwb. After I let slip those fateful words, he broke it off with me. I was heartbroken. To rub salt in the wound, within two weeks he was dating, and then married wife #2. Did I mention we were co-workers? And he was a drama junkie? He took every opportunity to parade her her in front of me at functions, practically mauling her, that even other coworkers were offended! :rolleyes: I stayed single for MORE years after that!

But I was still lonely. Felt something was missing. So I decided to try the online dating scene. Lots of first dates with 'interesting' :eek: men. Some damaged and single for a reason. Others with a check off list and pretty full of themselves and their search. Others misrepresenting themselves, others with just no sparks but nice guys. I'd often need 'dating breaks' from the madness! But for some reason, I felt the need to keep looking, although I had everything else to be absolutely happy and content, I felt my life was incomplete.

Then, NOT on a dating forum, but another cycling forum, I had posted about some of my internet dating experiences in response to a thread and this cyclist responded. It was flirty, but respectful too. Heck, I flirted back. After a couple days of this, it moved to pms. Then gee, instead of throwing his bike in his truck to find roads to ride during Memorial weekend, why not spend gas money on a plane ticket, and fly out to ride with me and meet? Sure, why not? He flew out.

Of course, after many years of self imposed hermitage, and online 'first meets' that mostly went nowhere, I was good at keeping men at a distance. With him, all those defenses were GONE. Fate, or some intuitve inner aspect of myself, softened my heart to this guy. He wasn't my taste at all as far as looks. But there was this overpowering feeling of comfort and closeness. I tend to be scattered and ungrounded. He was like a rock of security. The best feeling in the world was to lay my head on his chest, and feel his arms wrap around me...

It's been 5 months of a long distance relationship, now. He's been a victim of the economy, and changing careers. Again, I'm 10 years older, and feel a little overly self-concious of my many laugh lines and approaching menopause, and the changes that'll bring as far as our currently amazing physical relationship...
but the BIGGEST draw about him is his ability to communicate with me. The thing that was completely missing from my marriage. He's much more experienced in what it takes for a healthy relationship, always keeping things in perspective and seeing us as a 'team' in our relationship and working towards 'for the rest of our lives'. :D

One thing I know for sure, that niggling feeling that my life wasn't quite complete is GONE. With him, I'm home.

Biciclista

11-12-2008, 06:32 AM

Deedolce, WHAT A STORY! thanks for sharing, and good luck with your current sweetie!

deedolce

11-12-2008, 05:24 PM

Thanks, Mimi. I'm hopeful, but I'm a bit concerned about how a ldr will translate to a full time one when he's done with school! :p

roadie gal

11-13-2008, 10:58 AM

I've never been married, but I've done serial monogamy a number of times. I come from a very disfunctional family. My parents were married until my mother died, but my father used to beat her and throw us out of the house at random intervals throughout my life. My reaction to any tension in a relationship was to either cheat or run away. I never learned to just work things out. Whenever I'd leave one relationship I'd bounce right away to another with someone who was just the opposite of what I'd left. I never took the time to figure out what was RIGHT for me. I just went to whatever was not what I'd just had.

April 1999 I wrote a story and posted it on the internet. (Xena fanfiction) About 100 people wrote to me about the story. I wrote to say at least "thank you" to all of them. I ended up keeping in touch with about 5 of them. One person kept writing back and we ended up being friends. She helped me get through the breakup with my latest relationship. Things were getting closer between us, but she wouldn't come and visit (she lived across the country) or take the next step until I had cleaned up my current mess. For months we talked and wrote and shared our feelings before we even met each other in person. Finally, in September '99 she flew out to visit. She moved in with me in Feb 2000.

It's been hard to move beyond my past. Sometimes I still feel like running away. But then I remind myself that she's not going anywhere. Her confidence in me and our ability to work things out makes it easier to stay and do just that. I love her so much for that.

This is the longest relationship I've ever had. It took me this long to realize that you don't have to be madly in love every day. Some days you don't even have to like each other. If you treat each other with respect and gentleness and support each other then things will work out. And those days that you are madly in love are wonderful.

ikkin

11-13-2008, 11:10 AM

...It took me this long to realize that you don't have to be madly in love every day. Some days you don't even have to like each other. If you treat each other with respect and gentleness and support each other then things will work out. And those days that you are madly in love are wonderful.

...very wise words. :)

combine the above with not taking things personally and you've got a bombproof recipe for a long, happy relationship. good luck!

roadie gal

11-13-2008, 11:16 AM

...very wise words. :)

combine the above with not taking things personally and you've got a bombproof recipe for a long, happy relationship. good luck!

OMG, YES! That one is huge.

Flybye

11-13-2008, 08:14 PM

I think that if we think that being in love is that butterflies/heart racing/flushed feeling and that it will last forever, we are setting ourselves up for a let down. That's is infatuation, which is completely different from love. That infatuation feeling comes and goes. I have been married for 15 years with prior dating making our time with one another 20 years and I love my husband in a more rich, deep way than ever before. It is nice when that is complimented with a little heart racing now and then.

I think the second most ridiculous piece of advice is "never let the sun go down on your anger" - the worst fights that we have had have been late at night when we have nothing left to give the world on a day when all is going well. Sleep does amazing things for perspective on problems. What seemed so huge at 11:00 pm seems so minute at 8:00 am.

Make a point of going with them to events that they like - games, fishing, etc. - that is what is important to them. You don't see men getting together to just hang out and visit - they like to DO things.

Date your squeeze - I can't stress that enough.

I could share more lessons, but these are what came to mind right now.

Zen

11-14-2008, 03:18 AM

You don't see men getting together to just hang out and visit - they like to DO things.

I think that's a rather broad-brush stereotype.

Aggie_Ama

11-14-2008, 04:45 AM

I think the second most ridiculous piece of advice is "never let the sun go down on your anger" - the worst fights that we have had have been late at night when we have nothing left to give the world on a day when all is going well. Sleep does amazing things for perspective on problems. What seemed so huge at 11:00 pm seems so minute at 8:00 am.

+1 In our house fighting all night does nothing but make us cranky in the morning. We have gone to bed angry, it happens but it doesn't doom our relationship. And sometimes in the morning we are still angry, sometimes we cannot remember why we were angry. :rolleyes:

Tuckervill

11-14-2008, 09:09 AM

I think that's a rather broad-brush stereotype.

It pretty much is, but in my little sample of three sons, a grandson and two husbands, it bears out as true.

Three-way communication seems to work best with males. I get a lot said and heard when I'm doing something *with* them, and the conversation is not THE focus of the moment.

Reminds me of an article a friend of mine wrote: http://sandradodd.com/truck
It's about child-rearing, but not really.

Karen

indigoiis

11-14-2008, 10:11 AM

Another thing I just thought of - my guy is not a dude's dude - he'd rather be alone than with other guys, and doesn't go out and do stuff like fishing or ball games with other guys.

What he DOES need is time alone. He needs space. He needs to go out to his workshop sometimes and not have me in his space.

That's hard for me cuz I love being around him all the time and rarely spend time by myself. When I do, I usually enjoy it, but I'd much rather be with him.

But sometimes it's good to not overplan for weekends, to not have these huge expectations of someone to be there for us 24/7. To let the guy (or gal) be. If that means letting go of an argument, or of not going to a party together, or whatever, it's worth it.

ikkin

11-14-2008, 10:23 AM

...I think the second most ridiculous piece of advice is "never let the sun go down on your anger" - the worst fights that we have had have been late at night when we have nothing left to give the world on a day when all is going well. Sleep does amazing things for perspective on problems. What seemed so huge at 11:00 pm seems so minute at 8:00 am.

more TE smartness! totally agree. contrary to conventional wisdom- which usually isn't all that wise- going to bed mad is so much more effective and efficient than trying to resolve "issues" while upset. sometimes the more compelling and urgent a conversation seems, the less we should give in to our "need" to have it RIGHT NOW! ;)

we should collectively write a TE book on how to have a healthy, happy relationship. :D

shootingstar

11-14-2008, 11:38 AM

Another thing I just thought of - my guy is not a dude's dude - he'd rather be alone than with other guys, and doesn't go out and do stuff like fishing or ball games with other guys

Yea, indigois, my partner is not quite like that. Though he does cycle with other guys, it is with 1-2 other guys and not often...only a couple times per year. Or on a multi-day touring trip...which seems to happen once a year.

Or it's a more utiltarian ride related to his cycling advocacy work or his cycling facility planning biz. This is often.

Before he married and had kids, he did do more group stuff with guys, but last few decades he seems to be happy slinging it out on his own.

As for just meeting another guy just to talk...it seems to have a particular purpose/focus ...but not always. I have never sensed from him, a powerful need to do stuff /be action-oriented with his brother. or with adult son..it's straight long chats for several hrs. ..over phone, coffee or a meal. I'm glad...he doesn't see/hear from them that frequently.

So he doesn't aim to be the silent/ just action-oriented type of guy.

______________

Just an observation on long-distance relationships....I'm so glad that I was already with my partner 6 years before he had to relocate due to job and we had a long-distance relationship for over 2 yrs. before being together under 1 roof.