My knees are killing me...

[violette]

I went on a 70km bike ride on Sunday. I've been riding for about 5 yrs, doing longer rides with hills, shorter rides without hills. About half way through the ride, my knees started throbing, and I mean pain!!! This has never happened to me before and I didn't do or change anything in my ride, seat same height, same shoes... What is wrong???

[beccaB]

Which part of your knee hurts and is there swelling? That might make a difference if it's cartilage or connective tissue.

[Andrea]

I get pain under my patella occasionally on long rides. I usually try to scoot my butt back on the saddle a little bit then take an anti-inflammatory when I get home if it's still hurting.

[violette]

It's below my knee cap and travels behind my leg, behing the knee.

[Aggie_Ama]

I get pain and swelling of the knees on most rides. Having a good bike fit is key, I really hated riding before I got my bike re-fit. Still I do have problems with the knees but not as severe. Mine stems from prior injury from bowling competitively and running.

For the swelling I take 4 ibuprofen, this dosage was recommended by my doctor. I would definitely consult yours before popping that much ibuprofen! Otherwise scooting back on the saddle does provide minor relief, sometimes I just get too far up on mine and that is not how my bike was fitted for me.

[beccaB]

It's below my knee cap and travels behind my leg, behing the knee.


Do you have your seat high enough or too low? Maybe you could have your local bike shop look at you on your bike. Typically if the seat is too low there's pain in the front of the knee, and too high results in pain in the back of the knee, but that is a broad generalization.

[violette]

That is what I was thinking. My seat feels lower than before but I thought it was just my imagination. I'll adjust it tonight and see what happens. Thanks

[aicabsolut]

Are your hamstrings abnormally tight?

[Smilie]

Take precautions while riding your bike wear knee caps each time you ride.


What are knee caps? Besides the obvious ones that come with us each day.:D

[tulip]

The only time I've had knee problems is when I rode 100 miles in two days on the Blue Ridge Parkway. I was so worried about all the climbing that I kept my gearing in the granny gears. The second day was the worst. My riding partner suggested that I push slightly harder gears (not mash, just not spin with abandon) and that really helped. It seems counter productive to push harder gears to keep knees from hurting, but it worked for me. Were you spinning with abandon on your long ride?

[malkin]

Every now and then my knees are uncomfortable on a ride, and every now and then my knees get puffy after a ride. I don't see a consistent connection with the length of the ride. The ice bag is my friend. Beyond that, I guess I'd want a doc to take a look.

[Mr. Bloom]

Here's a good site:

http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

[arielmoon]

Here's a good site:

http://www.cptips.com/knee.htm

That article was super helpful. I am going to take "Dara" in for a fit check. I think my seat may be too high or too far back!

[VeloVT]

I rarely get knee pain from riding, but when I have, it has been related to bad fore/aft positioning (in my case, this usually means being too far forward, but that will depend on your body and your bike).

[arielmoon]

I have arthritis in both knees, my orthopedist said I have a 60 year old's knees, but I have never had this type of pain before.

At mile 60 in the century I felt posterior tension in my right knee. I am not sure what it says about the fit of my bike to have one knee hurt and not the other. It is still sore 4 days later but improving steadily although I have not been back on my bike.

[aicabsolut]

I have arthritis in both knees, my orthopedist said I have a 60 year old's knees, but I have never had this type of pain before.

At mile 60 in the century I felt posterior tension in my right knee. I am not sure what it says about the fit of my bike to have one knee hurt and not the other. It is still sore 4 days later but improving steadily although I have not been back on my bike.

It could be because of a physical or functional asymmetry. You might be dropping one hip (functionally shortening the reach) which causes the other leg to have a functionally longer reach (as compared to if you had 2 legs of measurably different lengths). So, for posterior knee pain, you might need to lower your saddle a smidge and maybe turn the nose of the saddle slightly away from the side that hurts to try to balance out how you're sitting. These problems can develop over time, because it could take a while for all the muscle imbalances to develop and everything that would lead to pain.

Another thing to keep in mind besides your saddle position is taking a look at your crankarm length. My pelvis gets out of alignment easily. My left SI joint hardly moves while the right one slips out of whack. My left leg is my dominant leg, though I have strong and weak muscles on each leg (stronger quads and gluteus maximus on the left, stronger hams and gluteus medius/minimus on the right). A lot of it is due to many years of being functionally asymmetrical. I can work on my alignment to help some.

A while after I got my bike, I started getting posterior knee pain after doing a fair amount of climbing (though I used to do those same rides with my less fit self with no problems). The pain was worse on the right. My initial bike setup was pretty relaxed..saddle a bit far back, bars fairly even with the saddle. I moved the saddle forward. I noticed an increase in power, but I couldn't get the right knee happy. That made my neck hurt, because now I was too squished in the reach. I got re-fitted, and they moved my saddle farther forward and my bars way down. I then had to move the saddle almost uncomfortably low to get the right knee happy, and then it still wouldn't last when I'd hit the hills. Finally, I found a shop that noticed that my bike had been built with the wrong sized crankarms for that frame size. They were too long. It was only 2.5mm off, but that made all the difference. I got new crankarms installed and I haven't had posterior knee pain since.

I do still run my saddle a bit lower than some people recommend, because when I'm doing a hard effort, I will have more heel-drop than average (and thus more extension of the knee). It is still set up where I can spin with a more neutral foot position comfortably. I also have my saddle slightly farther forward than most, and that position has allowed me to sit more squarely.

I'm not saying you should rush out and buy new crankarms, but if you keep working on your fit and still have problems, that might be something to consider.

[arielmoon]

Oh yes, thank you aicabsolut for sharing your experience. If I understand correctly, they moved the bars down to compensate for the saddle moving forward and that worked to keep your neck from getting sore?

My acupuncturist noticed that my left thigh is bigger than my right so I could very well be asymmetrical.

And I probably do have heel drop from my horseback riding.

From reading your comment I am very hopeful that a solution can be found cause I sure would hate to have to give this up!!

Thank you!

[aicabsolut]

Oh yes, thank you aicabsolut for sharing your experience. If I understand correctly, they moved the bars down to compensate for the saddle moving forward and that worked to keep your neck from getting sore?



Yes, I had to extend my reach to make it more like what it was when the saddle was much farther back, so we lowered the bars fair amount (I already use a 110mm stem). I had been hunching my shoulders up to make more room at my comfortable body angle (and I also have a fair amount of elbow bend), and that stressed my traps, causing neck pain and headaches. I also noticed a big improvement in handling when I lowered the stem angle.

I've just done some more tweaking--I raised the hoods on the bars a couple notches and rotated the bars down so I could have better leverage for sprinting in the drops. Now I feel a tiny bit cramped again from having the hoods closer, even after the downward rotation somehow. I may take out another 1/2cm in the headset.

I have a long history of horseback riding, so maybe that's where my heel drop comes from too! It just feels natural to crank out more power that way.

Good luck! It took me a long time, and it was just a fluke that a friend of mine at the LBS asked me why there were 175mm crankarms on my bike. I hadn't noticed that they were longer than they were supposed to be.

[arielmoon]

Went in to LBS today and we moved the seat down a bit and moved the saddle forward a hair. Too hard to tell if it make the difference since my knee is still hurting. We talked about moving the bars down and or turning the stem over as options if necessary. We decided not to change too many things at one time to see where we are.

[aicabsolut]

Went in to LBS today and we moved the seat down a bit and moved the saddle forward a hair. Too hard to tell if it make the difference since my knee is still hurting. We talked about moving the bars down and or turning the stem over as options if necessary. We decided not to change too many things at one time to see where we are.

Did you notice if it was better at all? I went in for fittings when the soft tissue behind the knee was still hurting. As we moved the saddle around, there was a point where pedaling stopped aggravating it and it actually started feeling better than even walking. Because I had started to get really low and forward (as compared to the fitter's recommendations) by that point, that's when I started looking for any other factor that I was missing (eventually finding the crankarm issue). I would go back and ask the guy to keep moving it until you get relief. Then see where that point is compared to where you "ought" to be and see 1) if there are any problems like you're really leaning on your hands or 2) if there are any ways to mimic that leg position by taking a different approach. If you go too far in changing the saddle position, you can always back it up a notch and see if that lets your knee recover.

[arielmoon]

Did you notice if it was better at all? I went in for fittings when the soft tissue behind the knee was still hurting. As we moved the saddle around, there was a point where pedaling stopped aggravating it and it actually started feeling better than even walking. Because I had started to get really low and forward (as compared to the fitter's recommendations) by that point, that's when I started looking for any other factor that I was missing (eventually finding the crankarm issue). I would go back and ask the guy to keep moving it until you get relief. Then see where that point is compared to where you "ought" to be and see 1) if there are any problems like you're really leaning on your hands or 2) if there are any ways to mimic that leg position by taking a different approach. If you go too far in changing the saddle position, you can always back it up a notch and see if that lets your knee recover.

YES!! The same thing happened for me! It actually felt better than walking and walking felt much better after I rode around with the new settings. I thought that I would see how this is for a few days and then go back and give them feedback. We were hesitant to do too much at one time.

[arielmoon]

Sooo.... Now the right knee is feeling good but it appears that the settings are making my left knee hurt now. I am considering shimming the right cleat to compensate for this.

I had surgery on the left knee last summer after having an accident on my horse. Torn meniscus, strained CL's and ACL and there was some damage cause by my patella. Ok so the pain in my left knee is in the front, patella area and I found that sitting way back on my saddle made it feel better. I moved the seat back a hair more and will see how that goes today.

Also notice that mashing (within reason) feels better to the right knee than spinning. The more the quad does the less the knee hurts.

I iced both knees after my 21 mile ride yesterday and they both feel good- in fact better than they have since the century.

I dont think I mentioned before that I dont have and ACL in my right knee- it was torn when I was 13 and never repaired. One of the guys at the LBS thinks this is part of my problem. I have no idea. I am not going to go back to my DR cause he just wants me to change my lifestyle and that just isnt going to happen. I feel confident this is something I can manage if I can get the settings right on the bike.

[OakLeaf]

How long are your crankarms? I wonder if you need shorter ones. Flexing my knees too much at the top of the pedal stroke gives me problems. And like you, mashing seemed better than spinning when I had crankarms that were too long, for a couple of reasons - the simple fact of fewer pedal strokes per a given distance, and also keeping a lot of weight on the pedals unweighted my @$$ and lifted me slightly higher. With 165mm cranks I'm much happier to spin.

Hope you get it sorted soon, knee trouble is miserable. :(

[arielmoon]

How long are your crankarms? I wonder if you need shorter ones. Flexing my knees too much at the top of the pedal stroke gives me problems. And like you, mashing seemed better than spinning when I had crankarms that were too long, for a couple of reasons - the simple fact of fewer pedal strokes per a given distance, and also keeping a lot of weight on the pedals unweighted my @$$ and lifted me slightly higher. With 165mm cranks I'm much happier to spin.

Hope you get it sorted soon, knee trouble is miserable. :(

Does it say somewhere on the crank? It is not listed in the specs on the trek site.

Extending hurts the right knee, bending hurts the left knee. :(

[OakLeaf]

Does it say somewhere on the crank? It is not listed in the specs on the trek site.

On my 105 cranks it's stamped on the inside of the right crankarm just above the pedal.

I don't know whether there are any good rules for choosing crankarm length. Maybe Knott or someone can weigh in? One of these days I'm going to pick up Andy Pruitt's book :rolleyes: It's not just your leg length, it's the tibia/femur ratio (which can't be measured very accurately without X-rays), but a fitter should be able to check your knee angles at both the top AND the bottom of the stroke.

[Cataboo]

It should say around the pedals on the inside of the cranks.

I'm 5'1 and use 165 cranks. The smaller the cranks, the easier it is to spin - and it's usually easier on your knees.

This has some info on cranks and what size they should be.
http://www.nettally.com/palmk/crderiva.html

I get knee pain when I've tried 170 and 172.5 mm cranks

[arielmoon]

It says 172.5.

I am 5'7. 31" inseam. Plugged into that formula puts me at 169.88.

Very interesting info! Thanks for the link!

[Cataboo]

It says 172.5.

I am 5'7. 31" inseam. Plugged into that formula puts me at 169.88.

Very interesting info! Thanks for the link!


My bf's 5'7 - he's got a 33 inch inseam. He uses 170 cranks. He definitely doesn't like 172.5 cranks. He can use 165's, but prefers 170 because he's used to mountain biking.

Too long of cranks will definitely stress your knees - Pay attention to the angles your knees make when you're pedaling - does your knee come above the horizontal, things like that.

[arielmoon]

Thanks for the input Catriona!

After playing around with the adjustments and still not getting relief I am going to call LBS today and have them order me a shorter crank arm set.

Thanks everyone. I will keep this thread posted with how it goes!

[arielmoon]

UPDATE: I called and talked to one of the other mechanics and he claims that 2.5mm is not going that much of a difference on the crank. :confused: He was not open to the idea to say the least.

He says the shop has shoe shims that we can try but he really wants me to come in and get re fitted. He is the head mechanic and is a very strong, experienced rider.

I am going to try to do that this week but I am also considering this guy I heard about that does a bike studio fit. Not cheap but really helped a rider I know of.

[OakLeaf]

With you needing to limit the range of motion of your knees, you may well need shorter crankarms than 170.

When you go back to the LBS, have your fitter measure the angle of your knees at the top of the pedal stroke as well as the bottom. Remember that shimming the cleats will mean bending your knees MORE at the top. Not a good thing for those of us with kneecap tracking issues.

Do you have a friend with a smaller bike you could try out and just see how their cranks work for you? Or would the shop let you test ride one? I'd let you ride mine (you'd have to raise the seat WAY up :p) but we won't be down there for at least another month.

PS - 2.5 mm doesn't seem like it should make a lot of difference, but neither does 5 mm, and 5 mm makes an ENORMOUS difference to my knees. I demo'ed a bike with 167.5 mm cranks when I first returned to road riding, and while my knees were okay with it, I felt like I had to set my seat height way high and ankle quite a bit to protect my knees.

[arielmoon]

So now I am wondering, if the shop has any bikes with shorter crank arms that I could test ride, if I would be able to tell anything. The owner thought they maybe have an old set somewhere that they may be able to put on my bike so we can at least try them before I buy a set since it is not going to be cheap and I hate to get one (165 or 170mm) or the other and then have it not be the right one. :p

I am going back today after work. It appears I have the whole shop brain storming on this. :D

[Cataboo]

So now I am wondering, if the shop has any bikes with shorter crank arms that I could test ride, if I would be able to tell anything. The owner thought they maybe have an old set somewhere that they may be able to put on my bike so we can at least try them before I buy a set since it is not going to be cheap and I hate to get one (165 or 170mm) or the other and then have it not be the right one. :p

I am going back today after work. It appears I have the whole shop brain storming on this. :D

You probably should also try a 167.5 mm.

I definitely think 172.5 is too long for you - and 2.5 mm does make a difference, at least I can feel a difference when riding cranks that are 2.5 mm different in size.

[arielmoon]

Yesterday was productive... I think :rolleyes:

First stop the bike shop: Steve put me on the trainer. He had raised the seat, moved the cleats on my shoes so that I wasnt so wide and put a shim in my left shoe to roll my foot out. He watched me ride, took measurements, and checked angles. The seat was lowered and moved forward. The shim was switched to rolling the left foot in a tad because he said my left knee was coming out when I pedaled. It felt pretty good and he wanted me to try it like that for a week.

He said they didnt have any shorter cranks laying around but he thought there might be a bike in the shop that I could 'test ride'. I would have to go back another day to do that.

Then I went to acupuncture/ massage: Bob has always had to work on the muscles in my thighs but yesterday they were really tight. He congratulated me for having every muscle in my right thigh locked up. (He is a little sarcastic). The acupuncture helped the left leg but the right was still tight so he massaged it. And when Bob massages it feels like my legs are being squeezed in a vice. Bottom line be believes that the locked up muscles are responsible for the knee pain not the bike. He thinks I pushed way too hard way too fast.

This morning my thigh is sore but right knee is tons better.

In conclusion: I am going to do stretches for my quads and hamstrings and try the bike on some easy rides then go from there.

[Cataboo]

You might just need to give your knees a rest and just let them heal a bit.

Once you've irritated your knees, it's not going to take much to keep them irritated.

[aicabsolut]

UPDATE: I called and talked to one of the other mechanics and he claims that 2.5mm is not going that much of a difference on the crank. :confused: He was not open to the idea to say the least.

He says the shop has shoe shims that we can try but he really wants me to come in and get re fitted. He is the head mechanic and is a very strong, experienced rider.

I am going to try to do that this week but I am also considering this guy I heard about that does a bike studio fit. Not cheap but really helped a rider I know of.


It says 172.5.

I am 5'7. 31" inseam. Plugged into that formula puts me at 169.88.

Very interesting info! Thanks for the link!

I'm 5'7" with about 31.5" inseam. My bike came with 175mm crankarms for some unknown reason. Once they changed them to 172.5mm, it was heavenly. I really noticed those millimeters! That said, with your stats, I wouldn't go shorter than 170mm. Eventually, you're going to start losing noticeable torque.

[arielmoon]

You might just need to give your knees a rest and just let them heal a bit.

Once you've irritated your knees, it's not going to take much to keep them irritated.

I agree! I intend to just do some leisurely riding or some spins on the trainer for a while. I figure I can spend the winter doing this and then slowly build back up the power and speed in the spring if all goes well.

Thanks for your thoughts!


I'm 5'7" with about 31.5" inseam. My bike came with 175mm crankarms for some unknown reason. Once they changed them to 172.5mm, it was heavenly. I really noticed those millimeters! That said, with your stats, I wouldn't go shorter than 170mm. Eventually, you're going to start losing noticeable torque.

Ok thanks! If I decide to spend the money I will try the 170mm. I def dont want to loose too much torque!!

I appreciate your advice!