blatant sexism

[applegum]

I need a place to rant.

I am so tired of the obvious and completely inappropriate sexism I get at work. Generally if someone works in a bike shop, they probably know a bit about bikes, and odds are they ride or they wouldn't have been hired. I get asked EVERY DAY multiple times whether or not I ride a bike, either mid-conversation after we have already established my cycling knowledge, or as verification before a guy is willing to ask me a question about a product. I might be able to understand this as it's a corporate store, but I've asked the guys who work at the shop (most of whom have worked there for about two years) whether they get asked whether they ride. If they ever have, it's only been once or twice over their entire career. One guy said he'd just say no and walk away if someone ever asked him that, which is when I started asking around.

A customer asked me two days ago whether I worked at the store. We were both standing next to the components cases that are locked up on the wall. I had a set of keys and a shop apron on and was putting away stock. Ignoring the keys, I just said "yeah, you can tell by the apron" and asked if he needed help with something. He said, and I quote, "I thought maybe you were gonna cook me somethin.'" I laughed it off and gave him a long lecture on the intricacies of upgrading a vintage road bike. God. I am the only person in the shop who can explain in detail how to cold set and upgrade a vintage bike so it's compatible with new components. I have a bike tattooed on the back of my neck. What more do these people want?

OK, that's all I had to say. It's been a long summer and it's my last week of work, and I needed to get that off my chest so I don't accidentally rip a customer's head off this close to being free.

Anyone else have any horror stories?

[salsabike]

WOW. I don't have a similar story, but if you can get the "cook me something" guy's head, I will personally volunteer to stuff and mount it on a little---presumably a TINY little---plaque.

Yeesh. I am sorry that stuff happens.

[teigyr]

I wonder if it was a very poor joke? Or attempt at one? Sometimes when people are uncomfortable (or they put their foot in their mouth), they compensate in strange ways.

I had a situation the other night that I thought was wonderful. We had a LOT of equipment to load and a short time span to do it in. I was provided five females to load 6300 lbs worth of heavy boxes and bags and I had doubts about the whole thing. (Bad me, I know.) I had even vented to a co-worker a bit thinking that we were ill-prepared to do the job that we had to do.

When the equipment manager (and equipment) arrived, the manager looked at the crew and said "no offense but this stuff is heavy. Don't you have any males to load it?" I apologized and said this is what we had and we would make the most of it.

This group of women loaded the plane in as quick as I've ever seen it done. The equipment is bulky (along with being heavy) and is difficult to fit in the space provided. The equipment manager was astounded. I was laughing.

I told them after the fact that we had doubts. The lead ramp person said she gets that a lot and that it's mostly women out on the ramp. They were all smiling (the equipment manager gave them shirts he was so impressed) and said they had "girl power".

I guess everyone can be prone to stereotyping. I didn't think they could do it but I am SO glad they surprised me. I am also glad they were tolerant with our doubts and I think a lot of lessons were learned.

[DDH]

I'm sorry you have to deal with ignorant people. I know it's awful for people to be this way, and sometimes they are quite annoying, but really for the most part, I think people don't mean to offend.
We live in a world where it is not politically correct to assume anything and it seems like no matter what is said, someone is going to be offended.

Unfortunately for the most part,, it's still a man's world and when we work in an area that is predominately men, then people are going to be surprised or make unwanted assumptions or remarks.

I always try to ignore the remarks, and consider the source.

[Zen]

I always try to ignore the remarks, and consider the source.

If you do nothing, you get nothing.
If it should ever happen again, just say "Do you mind if I ask you a question?"

"If you saw a male wearing this apron would you say the same thing?"

You may not be cooking anything but you might be providing food for thought.

[teigyr]

If you do nothing, you get nothing.




You're absolutely right. I should know better and I have put people into roles (both male and female) at times. It's unfortunate but people DO have preconceived notions. I think some subtle education will help offset that, or at the very least it'll make the person think twice before they do it again.

[shootingstar]

Zen had a good suggested response.

Well applegum, I'm glad though you earned your keep at LBS. Which one was it in T.O.? It must have been tiring to hear some of the crap.

When I started with my firm (2 yrs. ago) where I am now, my boss and other male managers, often referred to women, as the "girls". ..which irritated the heck of me. Other organizations where I worked with many men, most men no longer used the term in the workplace. Not that I said anything. But after awhile, they no longer use that term on me. I made sure I didn't refer to women as "girls" in my conversation at work. This latter is most emphasized since most women in my workplace still use "girls".

I am not sure why the term was dropped when these same guys now communicate with me. It is possibly just the way I am. ...which direct, open and business-like, almost too serious at times. For the guys, I just deal with them at face value and not with an underlying assumption that they are out to disrespect me. I guess like to chat up abit, joke but get on with biz stuff...my boss realized this early and adjusted fast. (By the way, he wasn't the person who originally hired me. I reported to him later...)

There was a woman who has since left the organization who was (rightfully in some cases) indignant for be treated in a sexist way by male coworkers. But part of her problem was that she felt she deserved more authority, yet she was doing alot of things that undermined her accountability to her job responsibilities..ie. gossiping alot about employees, taking too long lunch breaks, wearing ipod headphones for hrs. for a service-oriented role that didn't make her customer-friendly, etc.

Applegum, there's some improvement in some workplace areas, in others is just the same thing in a new disguise. I've learned to not take things too personally at work if there is expressed sexism..or racism even. Better just to focus on doing a job well and adopt a good learning style for anything an organization offers. And eventually leave an organization with lessons learned, as you will be.

There is a long journey ahead..and things both great and not-so-great to discover. May we just become more clever and strong.. ;)

[Becky]

I hear your frustration. I get this a lot too, at both jobs no less. But that, to a degree, is life in a male-dominated field. A silent dirty look from a confident woman tends to shut down a lot of it. My experience has been that very little of it is intended to be harrassing, it's mostly 13 year old brains in 40 year old bodies, and therefore doesn't get dignified with a reaction.

As for the shop scenario, my answer to "Do you ride?" is usually, "Of course!!" I get "what kind of bike do you have?" a lot too, almost as if they expect me to have a Huffy or such. "Which one?" is the standard answer and leaves the customer sputtering usually. (Hey, there's 3 of them- it's a legit clarifier :p)

I've had customers hit on me more times than I can count, tell me that I had a nice smile/face/legs/etc. I had a guy question my sexual orientation once. DH was working that day as well, and was not amused! If I'm in the shop, they'll ask to speak to a mechanic, and then sputter when I say, "yeah, that's me." (I'm technically sales, but can wrench well enough to get the basics done and certainly tell you what part you need. I leave the heavy duty stuff to our head wrench who's been doing this 20 years and is the nicest guy.) I could go on and on....

I don't know if this helps any, but know that you're not alone in this. Hang in there!

[lph]

Well - just to play devil's advocate - I have countless times gone into a bike shop and had to wade past teenage dudes who don't understand what I'm asking, to get to a knowledgeable mechanic. Not to say your shop is like that, but not all bike shops have equally good staff. Being a woman myself I'd NEVER ask a woman "do you ride?" (how rude!) but I do admit to trying to size up the person I'm talking to so that I know if I'm getting advice based on experience or just the standard spiel they read off the brochure.

I like the idea of practicing some snappy remarks. Or how about a t-shirt saying: YES I WORK HERE and I know what I'm doing

:rolleyes:

edit:

"Do you ride?" "No, I'm just here to look pretty" "No, I'm the bosses girlfriend" "No, but I sure look cute in bike shorts" "Do I ride what?" "Yes. Why do you ask?" ... ran out of ideas

[RoadRaven]

As someone who tries to enlighten adult students about gender "issues" and invisible sexism that continues in our societies, I empathise and sympathise.

May I also use your story in class, AppleGum?

lph... I don't think your playing the devils advocate, per se... cause looking for a knowledgable bike mechanic doesn't have to involve stupid questions. But you do have a good point. If my partner goes into a bike shop where he knows no-one, he chooses who he wants to talk to based on their body. He is a top road cyclist in NZ in his age group, and people who ride at that level (either male, or the equilvalent female level) have a certain look... their faces tell their weight, their leg muscles tell their cycling discipline... and their muscles and weight tell their level of ability and dedication.

He would never dream of asking if someone rides a bike, but he has asked what type of bike they ride/have ridden.

BTW, lph - luuurve the comebacks. Wish I wasn't so tired so I could add to them!

[applegum]

If you do nothing, you get nothing.
If it should ever happen again, just say "Do you mind if I ask you a question?"

"If you saw a male wearing this apron would you say the same thing?"

You may not be cooking anything but you might be providing food for thought.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was planning on doing, since I'll probably get asked again if I ride tomorrow. Hopefully no one will say anything pertaining to me cooking anything again. Mostly I've avoided saying anything like this so far because a lot of people would get defensive if I asked, and I really didn't want to upset customers. It'd look bad for my managers and I really like all three of them. But I'm leaving in a week and have honestly stopped caring!



Zen had a good suggested response.

Well applegum, I'm glad though you earned your keep at LBS. Which one was it in T.O.? It must have been tiring to hear some of the crap.


It's actually in Richmond, VA. Hopefully it won't happen once I get back to school since I might be working as a mechanic at a school co-op.




May I also use your story in class, AppleGum?



Feel free! Most people underestimate the amount of sexism still out there in the world, thinking we've fixed it all! Totally untrue, unfortunately, although we have come a long way. But it'll be hard to get over the last few hurdles if everyone refuses to acknowledge them.

Thanks for the support everyone! I know that 99% of the people who do stuff like this don't mean to offend, but after four months of it (how do you all take it after so many years?!) on a consistent basis without saying anything I just needed to get it all out before I went off on someone.

[tulip]

Hi Applegum, I think I know where you work (no names please), and no disrespect to the place, but they do get alot of people who have NO CLUE about bikes. If people are clueless, they tend to get nervous and stupid(er). Glad it's your last week.

Where's the coop of which you speak--Richmond ReCycles? I have yet to stop in there, but I crane my neck whenever I'm going down Cary Street.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

[QUOTE=Zen;351925

"If you saw a male wearing this apron would you say the same thing?"[/QUOTE]

In all fairness, if I had been in the same situation and the guy employee was wearing an apron that reminded me of a kitchen worker or BBQ outfit, I might have said the same joke about cooking something too. It would have been based on the apron, not on his gender. Now, if you had not been wearing an apron at all- then that would have been bad!

And Yes, I have run into LBS employees (both male and female) who know very little about bikes- they are just there to help with inventory or fill in or something. I hate describing my bike situation and my question to someone only to find out they know way less than me about it. I sometimes ask first if they know about bike stuff.

But in general, yes there is too much assumption that men know more than women about bikes.

[DebW]

I can tell you that the sexism against female bike mechanics is much less now than in 1973. Though I'm also comparing my 17 year old self with my 52 year old self and age may make a difference in people's perceptions. In 1973, almost every day (or several times a day) I'd have someone ask "Can I talk to a mechanic?" when they heard my voice over the phone. I'd usually just ask what they needed and answer their questions. But sometimes I'd get so sick of the question and having to explain myself all the time that I'd hand the phone to a guy. I think I've gotten that question once in the past 2 months that I've been a professional mechanic again.

I don't wear an apron in the shop. But the manager and one of the male employees do. No one has ever asked them about cooking. We're a small shop, and all employees are mechanics who wait on customers when necessary. I have been asked if I ride a couple of time by customers, because I appear pretty clueless about the things we sell. I am pretty clueless because I've only worked there 2 months and spend my time repairing bikes, not testing out every helmet, pump, and pair of socks we sell. I just have to tell them that I'm a mechanic and refer their questions on bikes and accessories to someone else.

[applegum]

Hi Applegum, I think I know where you work (no names please), and no disrespect to the place, but they do get alot of people who have NO CLUE about bikes. If people are clueless, they tend to get nervous and stupid(er). Glad it's your last week.

Where's the coop of which you speak--Richmond ReCycles? I have yet to stop in there, but I crane my neck whenever I'm going down Cary Street.

Yeah, it's the shop you think it is. Which is why I haven't gotten upset with anyone who's asked that yet. Then again, Richmond shops in general are in poor shape right now and ours is actually known for being the best for advice and not hiring jerks in the area. We get a lot of people in mentioning the horrible service at a few of the LBS's actually.

I'd love to work at Richmond Recycles, but I'm moving back to Toronto finally. Hopefully I'll be working at the Bikechain, which is run by UofT students and faculty.

[ridebikeme]

Um.... I know exactly what you are talking about. Although, I have to agree with Deb, things have definitely become WAY better than in my early career. I try to remind myself that there were many women that had it worse than I did, and they in fact, have paved the way for the rest of us. I also see it as something that I should try and make better for the future . Although it's not comfortable, try and turn it around and educate people. Not only will theyl remember you, but you will set the tone for no matter what you choose to do in life.

[Becky]

I had a good one today.

At our shop, when a customer takes a bike out on a test ride, we're required to hang the tag from our aprons. Naturally, this results in a lot of "oh, so you're $XXX today? What a good deal!" and so on. Most people make the stupid joke and move on.

Today, I sent a customer out on a very nice full carbon and Dura Ace bike. The man with him proceeded to start the "you're $2900 today?" joke with me, and would not let it drop. He asked me if that was my daily or weekly rate, and on and on. I wish that I'd remembered Zen's line about asking that if I was a man- I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have gone there with one of the guys. He finally shut up when I told him that he was digging himself a pretty deep hole. His friend was so embarrassed by his behavior!

I don't mean to be curt with customers, but there are some that just push so far beyond the limits of decency...

Grrr! Some days it's just not worth the discount! :mad:

BTW, I think it's perfectly ok to say, "Are you familiar with product ABC?" before launching into your question(s). I can't possibly know every product that we sell, and I'll gladly hand you over to someone else who can better speak to the topic. "Do you ride?" is a little too broad and makes just about everyone uncomfortable.

[Mr. Bloom]

Applegum: I'm with Lisa and LPH...it seems to me that the guy may have responded to sarcasm with sarcasm...without any sexist intent.

I'm not saying that there isn't sexism and am not trying to justify it when there is, but in retail, the customer is always right no matter how wrong they are...and I'd be careful throwing out sharp responses...unless you really practice taking the edge of the delivery. Change attitudes one person at a time by demonstrating your competance, not by ticking them off;)

[teigyr]

I disagree that the customer is always right. I like this quote:

"The fact is that some customers are just plain wrong, that businesses are better of without them, and that managers siding with unreasonable customers over employees is a very bad idea, that results in worse customer service."

Look at Southwest Airlines and how they are in relation to the other airlines. If an employee feels empowered, they will give the best customer service they can as opposed to an oppressed employee. This quote by Herb Kelleher says it all:

"Herb Kelleher [...] makes it clear that his employees come first — even if it means dismissing customers. But aren’t customers always right? “No, they are not,” Kelleher snaps. “And I think that’s one of the biggest betrayals of employees a boss can possibly commit. The customer is sometimes wrong. We don’t carry those sorts of customers. We write to them and say, ‘Fly somebody else. Don’t abuse our people.’”

I think "the customer is always right" mentality is outdated. I prefer giving my business to a company that backs their employees instead of seeing an employee squirm and then give into whatever ridiculous rant the customer is going on about.

To go back to the original topic, yeah there is stereotyping going on. I've been guilty of it. The best thing you can do is be subtle in education but also call them on comments that are uncalled for. You can't educate the whole of civilization (I wish I could..those people who drive under the speed limit in the passing lane are sorely needing something) but each lesson will impact the person a bit more.

The salon I go to (not to be totally girly here) has a resident dog. She is the owners dog. I have heard people complain about the dog because the dog WILL jump up next to you as you're getting a pedicure. This salon is awesome though and I really like the dog. The customers that complain are advised that there might be a better place for them to go. Go figure, the salon is booked WEEKS in advance. I like the fact that the owner has taken a stance regarding something she believes in and I will put up with waiting weeks to get an appointment :D Apparently, I am not the only one.

[Zen]

He asked me if that was my daily or weekly rate, and on and on.

Whoa.
If that were my customer he may have burst into flames due to the intense glare from my eyes.
I have to commend you on you self control.

[tulip]

Yeah, it's the shop you think it is. Which is why I haven't gotten upset with anyone who's asked that yet. Then again, Richmond shops in general are in poor shape right now and ours is actually known for being the best for advice and not hiring jerks in the area. We get a lot of people in mentioning the horrible service at a few of the LBS's actually.

I'd love to work at Richmond Recycles, but I'm moving back to Toronto finally. Hopefully I'll be working at the Bikechain, which is run by UofT students and faculty.

I have heard some very bad reviews of a couple (one in particular) shops here in Richmond. I have not gone to those shops. I've only been to one shop here in the past year that I've lived here, and it was not negative, but not great (like my old shop outside of DC-Proteus rocks!) I do most of my basic work myself, and I haven't need to buy anything lately, so I've been lucky that way.

Best of luck in Toronto! Richmond will miss losing a competent and nice bike shop employee who also happens to be a woman!

[applegum]

I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that the customer isn't always right. Even if they're blatantly wrong though I never tell them that, and still act politely towards them. It's not even for my job's sake since there's no way they would have fired me, but just because I don't want my boss getting the flak for me not being able to handle a little ignorance every once in a while. My bosses always side with our employees at least, although they will try to appease the customer. We never get blamed for a disgruntled customer when it was just them being rude or demanding things that we just can't supply (like brands we don't carry or being able to mark down clearance prices or overhauling a bike on a busy saturday), and usually whichever manager was around for the incident will have some supportive or commiseration words to say afterwards. I gotta say, it really makes for a comfortable work environment, and it shows in our general customer service since we all feel at home at the shop.

As to getting sarcasm back for sarcasm, I was completely un-sarcastic in my reply of "you can tell by the apron." That's just my usual reply if someone asks if I work there, and I say it in a non-joking but still friendly voice. His reply was funny, but terribly inappropriate. The other girl who works with me has had her apron strings untied by some idiot guys who come by, like it's in their rights as a customer to undress the female sales people. That's way worse.

[badger]

Mine's probably not so much sexism, but a figure of authority for the lack of better description.

I work in a fire department, and I work in the front end. Oftentimes a citizen will walk in wanting a stamp for how many people can be in their restaurant. I'm the one who can help them, yet they inevitably look beyond me for a guy in a uniform (they're not trained to do what I do). It's annoying, but if they want the stamp, they have to deal with me, so eventually they'll get it.

I was once at a clothing store in a mall. It was a female-clothing store, so the lone guy in it kind of stood out. I guess it's really no different than seeing a girl at a bike store, but it takes a moment to shift your brain into gear. It's great you're working at a bike store, though. I once aspired to become a bike mechanic, but I got steered into clerical work. I guess I can still learn on the side!

[tc1]

If it makes you feel any better, if I see a woman working in a bike shop I try to make my purchase from her.

So I'm on a service call at a customer's house (electric company). The drunk barfly woman sez "I thought they were going to send a ****in' man! Why in the hell did they send you?) I shrugged my shoulders, did what I had to do, and she apologized afterwards. She said she was just surprised.

The good part about being in a mostly male profession is no line for restroom at seminars, meetings, etc.

[squirrell]

I'm a pastor, and sexism just comes with the robe. I had one guy tell me "why should I come to church to hear a woman tell me what to do--I got a wife at home who does that."

He thought it was funny....

I didn't.

[roadie gal]

I'm an ER doc. Try being the female doctor in an ER full of male nurses. People always used to look past me to find the doctor, even if I was wearing a nametag that had M.D. on it and after I introduced myself as Doctor ____. I still get called "Nurse" occasionally but not so much in recent years. I think part of that is that there are more female docs and part is that I'm gray enough that I look like "the doctor".

I do admire your ability to hold your tongue though. The last few times I've been asked, "Are you the doctor?" I've replied, "Yep, have been all day."

[colby]

I told them after the fact that we had doubts. The lead ramp person said she gets that a lot and that it's mostly women out on the ramp. They were all smiling (the equipment manager gave them shirts he was so impressed) and said they had "girl power".

It took me a few days to find this and come back to the thread, but a friend sent me this postcard when she and her husband were in Germany and this thread reminded me of it...

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g287/colby-digital/Photo_082208_001.jpg

From this vendor:
http://www.moderntimes.de/seite/produkte/postkarten/fun/seite/84.html

[DebW]

Speaking of sexism, read this Boston Globe Article (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/22/one_small_step_for_women_one_giant_leap_for_sexism/).

[KnottedYet]

Speaking of sexism, read this Boston Globe Article (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2008/08/22/one_small_step_for_women_one_giant_leap_for_sexism/).

I love Love LOVE that the author's name is "GoodMAN." :eek:

Heeee hee eheeeeee! ;)

[Zen]

Why did you have to get me all riled up again?

Of course I had to investigate this (http://www.feministing.com/archives/010417.html)
and this (http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/fromdawntillrusk/2008/06/is-is-just-me-or.html)

I'm not even going to go down the honorary segregationist road;), it's a long and bumpy ride...

[KnottedYet]

weeeellllll, I won't be buying any Wrangler jeans.

(I'll stick with my Diamond Gussets and my Costco jeans.)

[Trek420]

I'm a pastor, and sexism just comes with the robe. I had one guy tell me "why should I come to church to hear a woman tell me what to do--I got a wife at home who does that."

He thought it was funny....

I didn't.

Wait till he gets to heaven. He's in for the surprise of his life. G*d heard that and boy is she mad ;) :rolleyes: :cool:

[shootingstar]

That Wrangler jeans ad is shiveringly sick and wierd.

And those baby shoes with a heel...they look abit like the old Chinese shoes for women who had bound feet. Oh ugh.

[lph]

Those Wrangler ads are DISGUSTING. I don't think I've ever seen an ad that made me feel queasy before. What were they thinking? What did they want their buyers to think?? "Oh, no, how awful! but ooh, she sure has nice jeans on..."

[Trek420]

What are the families of the deceased supposed the think? That's disgusting.

[roadie gal]

Why did you have to get me all riled up again?

Of course I had to investigate this (http://www.feministing.com/archives/010417.html)
and this (http://blogs.coventrytelegraph.net/fromdawntillrusk/2008/06/is-is-just-me-or.html)

I'm not even going to go down the honorary segregationist road;), it's a long and bumpy ride...

That jeans ad is one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen in an ad. Did that campaign actually run anywhere?

[SouthernBelle]

I thought about this thread as I went from Home Depot to Lowes. Guess why.

[crazycanuck]

:confused: :eek: :mad: EH? WTH!

For once i'm speechless.