High Heartrates and HR Zone training

[BabyBlueNTulsa]

I have a situation/question for you gals..

My HR is consistently high on the bike. I stopped using the strap with my PowerTap b/c I never saw changes (lowering) while training over months. I got stronger and faster, but my hr didn't go down. This first ride I did with my Garmin yesterday, I wore the HR strap. Big surprise, my HR is still high. It said my average was in zone 4-5 (aerobic/anaerobic) for most all the ride.
I was doing some reading today about calorie consumption calculations, but stumbled upon HR zone training. Now I know maybe some people just naturally exercise at a higher HR, but maybe that combined with our heat here (getting to triple digits) is taking more out of me than it should. Am I training (riding) too hard? I needed to do yardwork today, but I really didn't feel consumed by a desire to ride after yesterday's excursion (4hrs, nearly60miles, >2K climbing, 94+ by ride's end). In fact, I was watching the Tour this morning and fought it hard not to sleep through most of it. I had to MAKE myself get up and go mow the yard. Felt so tired...

I'm 38 (nearly 39) and am starting to feel hormone changes (for you ladies who know what I'm talking about). Is there more to this HR zone training stuff, or do I just need to take it easier? I can hop on the bike and I'm already at 105.

Then again - - -Maybe I just needed a lazy Sunday?

[maillotpois]

Zone 4 - 5 according to what? Just wondering how you measured those thresholds. Was it a blood LT testing series or through gas exchange or how?

Heat definitely makes some people have higher HR. We had some guys on the team we coached for Death Ride rise precipitously when it was hot. And it does sound as though you may be somewhat overtrained for the conditions.

Helpful to know a bit more about your training and testing background, though.

[Eden]

Generally it is resting HR that is watched as a symptom of over training. You need to know what your typical resting HR is. If you find that it is consistently high that could be a sign you are over training.

Were you using the preset age based HR zones..... they are usually pretty wrong. It's pretty hard to do most of a ride in your true zone 4-5. If I used the formula all of my zones would move up one!

[maillotpois]

Were you using the preset age based HR zones..... they are usually pretty wrong. It's pretty hard to do most of a ride in your true zone 4-5. If I used the formula all of my zones would move up one!

That's why I wondered how she established those zones.

[BabyBlueNTulsa]

Oh yes... see, I assumed that was standard practice - using the preset age thresholds. I had no idea there was any other way. :confused:

My resting HR usually sits around 67-75. My avg riding HR on this Saturday ride was 155-161 (depending upon whether you ask GC or MB). They were around the same from my PowerTap data previously too.

I was riding more often last year, I believe.. but I've been doing more consistent "long" (around 100K) rides this year. I haven't all-the-sudden increased anything or tried to bust any of my speed records. The past few weeks though, I've only been riding Wednesday evenings (37 miles, plenty of hills), and Saturdays (usually 55-65 good mix of hills and flat). The HEAT has only really come on in the past 2wks.

Hard to convince myself that I'm overtraining... but hey..what do I know?

[maillotpois]

Is that your resting HR right when you wake up or at some point during the day? (True resting HR is calculated right when you wake up in the morning. Then compare day to day to see how it goes up or down.)

The preset age thresholds are a nice starting point, but if you are really going to maximize the training tools you have invested in (the powertap or garmin), then you should really consider a blood lactate threshold testing or gas exchange testing. Both use lactate threshold as the key value for setting the HR zones. The former (blood lactate testing) is where you ride a computrainer for about a half hour total, and the power level is raised every few minutes and you have blood taken and tested every few minutes as well. Your HR is constantly monitored. This tells you at what HR and power output you are no longer able to clear lactate from your blood.

Gas exchange gives similar values, but that's the one where you're hooked up like a scuba diver to hoses you breathe through.

There's got to be some sports med facility nearby that does this sort of testing.

This testing also gives you peak power values so you can use power for training instead of or in addition to HR testing.

So here's an example of comparing the age based and clinically tested HR values: An online zone calculator based on my age (41) gives me 135 - 147 for zone 3, 147 - 160 for zone 4 and 160 - 169 for zone 5. By contrast, my most recent blood lactate testing in March gave 145 - 168 for zone 3, 168 - 173 as zone 4 and above 171 as zone 5. And I know those March values have increased since then because my level of fitness has improved since the (I was tested shortly after a 2 month break from riding because I'd broken a bone.) So my zones are actually slightly higher than as tested.

So you can see those calculated age based values can be wildly off.

[ima_bleeder]

My resting HR usually sits around 67-75. My avg riding HR on this Saturday ride was 155-161 (depending upon whether you ask GC or MB). They were around the same from my PowerTap data previously too.


Just another point of reference ...
I'm 39, and my resting HR is around 60 - 65.

And here's my HR profile (http://picasaweb.google.com/stephanie.rouse/2008MTBRaces/photo#5192969434246410274) for a race I did back in April. I was absolutely maxed out, and there were a couple of moments where I felt lightheaded and nauseous. I wouldn't have been able to push myself that hard outside of a race, but it did give me good data for figuring out my max.

Based on that profile, the coach I worked with to train for a race in June estimated that my actual MHR is a little over 200. I discovered that on "shorter" rides (no more than a couple of hours), I can spend a fair bit of time around 180 and not burn out. On endurance rides (2 hrs +), I need to keep my average in the 160's or less. I know we've got a lab in town that will do LT testing, and maybe I'll get around to visiting them the next time I set a cycling or fitness goal.

Here's a little quote from Joe Friel on the "220-Age" formula for max:
"This formula is as likely to be wrong—way wrong!—as it is to be right. In sport science, where a reliability quotient of 0.95 is considered good, this formula’s reliability is 0.51. In other words, it’s reliable about half the time."
There are other formulas that may be better on average, but as a rule I don't think you want to use a generalized formula.

If you want to go low-cost and easy ... just pay attention to how you feel at various HR. You'll start to kind of figure out how high you can work and maintain for an endurance ride, vs. what you're only able to maintain for a few minutes ... half an hour ... an hour.

If you want more specific help, but don't want to pay for a coach, you could check out one of Friel's training bibles and follow his formula for finding your LT and HR training zones. And if you can find a lab nearby that will do the LT testing for you that'd be pretty awesome data.

If you have more time than money, hire a coach and let them help you sort through all that information.

And have fun with your Garmin! I love mine. :D

[BabyBlueNTulsa]

All very helpful tips and info, gals!

I haven't done any lab testing for LT. I've only used my (ex) PowerTap for LT testing.. and I haven't done a waking HR measure in a while. I'd have to sleep with the strap on and the watch too. I've never been talented enough to count heart beats and seconds at the same time. LOL I have a BP cuff that I use every so often (dang, getting old stinks!!) and it gives a hr. I know that's not the same, but I do wait a while after getting it on before I take the reading.

You gals have given me a good deal of preliminary info though.. I think I can use that to re-evaluate the zones. My avg hr from this last ride and my ability to speak (and scream/sprint at one point from a dog chase) make me think my actual zones really are different (as suggested!) than the 220-Age formula.

If I'd really been at 4.7 like the MB profile said, I would have been near anaerobic and unable to speak or catch my breath for most of the ride. Where..in reality, I was working hard, but not nearly THAT hard. My only anaerobic time was at the top of a 12% climb where I got surprise-jumped by 3 dogs at the top. Talk about impetus to push the limits!! My HR jumped to 192! Lawdddd!!!

[BabyBlueNTulsa]

P.s. I have a group ride on Wednesday... I'll report in again tomorrow night.

[BabyBlueNTulsa]

MotionBased's server was "busy" last night when I was trying to upload. So anyway - here was last night's ride as promised.

http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/6394810

Now, I admit.. I really was working hard. I was trying to stay ahead of a real-life "virtual partner". hee hee
Still hard to see that my avg hr was so high... surely i'm not the only one... ??

[OakLeaf]

Okay, I still don't see it being super high, if you were working hard as you say, especially considering the heat (if MotionBased was accurate about the temp)?

But, what the others said about your resting HR. If 67-75 is truly your resting rate (as soon as you wake up in the morning, or for a close approximation after you've been relaxing for at least an hour), that is kind of high. If you've noticed your resting HR getting higher lately, that's a red flag for overtraining.

You don't have to count, just have a stopwatch or kitchen timer set for one minute (or 30 seconds and multiply by 2).

[Veronica]

When I'm really working hard, my average is in the 170s.

V.

[maillotpois]

I also don't see this as super high for a true training ride (as opposed to a recovery or endurance ride). Relatively short course, fast time, plenty of up and down in the profile. My average would be right about there and V, you and I are all about the same age (putting another nail in the 220-age formula).

Here's a way to estimate your LT and really get those zones dialed in a bit more:

http://www.ultracycling.com/training/heart_rate_training_zones.html

I'd still go with true lab testing if it is available to you, but this is a good interim measure (so to speak).

[ima_bleeder]

We're roughly the same age, the same gender, and have very nearly the same resting heart rate ... and your HR profile looks very similar to many of my rides. So I don't think it looks extreme at all.

Here's the link to my motionbased (http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/5993381) HR data for a 7 1/2 hour, 50 mile MTB race. Mind you, I was PACING myself for an all day ride, and I still averaged 166, with a max HR of 187.

MHR varies significantly by individual, so don't get concerned because you don't think you represent the norm.

[BabyBlueNTulsa]

ima - that mtb profile looks insane! Wow... Fun, but insane!

All your info and shared profiles/experiences have helped me realize I'm not overtraining. My resting hr has stayed relatively the same and I just posted my 8/2 ride and saw that for a flatter ride, my avg HR was a lot lower. I even went faster (no surprise since it was flatter), but my HR was still a lot lower than my usual hilly rides. Now..if the heat weren't so blasted deadly right now.... <<sigh>>

http://trail.motionbased.com/trail/activity/6414179

Thank you thank you, lady friends of TE!!!

[Chicken Little]

The heat is killing us all right now. I am on the road by 0630 or am reduced to a slobbering, beet red, salt drenched slob by 0900. I find riding in 35 degrees easier than this stuff...