Ah geez....here we go again (Tour thread)

[BikeMomma]

The Tour's first doping positive.....
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/tour08/news/?id=/news/2008/jul08/jul12news

Come on, dudes...get it through your thick brains...we want a clean Tour! :mad:

I have an idea -- disqualify the whole Team Liquigas and bring in Astana to replace them. :rolleyes:

~BikeMomma

[SadieKate]

Yeah, I agree but . . . .

"If the counter-analysis confirms his positive, then Beltrán will be fired and have to pay the cost."

Um, punitive damages when the B sample hasn't been tested and the labs and methodology are questionable? I really try to ignore all this but isn't it supposed to be confidential until them?

I've been really trying to make all this a very hazy memory because it just makes my head spin, that statement about just wigged me out. Is it any wonder that some of this seems like witchhunting? If she doesn't drown, she's innocent?

[BikeMomma]

The story leaked early, as usual. Yea...it's supposed to be confidential. Ha!

True -- don't hang 'im until he's tried and convicted, but...how many B tests have actually ever disproven the A test? I don't recall even one (someone correct me, please, if there are cases out there). The Cyclingnews.com story also says that he was one of ten cyclists that had abnormal blood tests before the Tour even began, so he was on special watch from day one -- a marked man, so to speak.

Re testing accuracy -- aren't the samples supposed to go to an independent lab too? I might be wrong -- it's been a while since I've thought about this stuff also, and a while since the new procedures were made known.

I didn't used to be so cynical about the A/B test thing...but time has made me jump to accusal quickly, I guess. Just tired of hearing about these icons of the sport who think they are above the law. This sport can't take much more of the same.

Ok, that's my soapbox speech. lol
~Bikemomma

[Zen]

What makes them think they won't get caught?

[Beane]

What makes them think they won't get caught?

That's what I've been wondering too...

[peachgirl]

What makes them think they won't get caught?

Because most of them don't...Beltran's 37...I doubt this is the first time he's ever used EPO...

Ullrich, Basso, etc never tested positive...

[alpinerabbit]

Beltran used to be in Mapei which definitely doped. Oops, he was also in US postal and Discovery Channel... not saying anything here.....

[Possegal]

Yeah, I agree but . . . .

"If the counter-analysis confirms his positive, then Beltrán will be fired and have to pay the cost."

Um, punitive damages when the B sample hasn't been tested and the labs and methodology are questionable?

I believe the term "if the counter-analysis confirms his positive" means if the B sample is positive, so this isn't punitive damages when the B sample hasn't been tested, its damages after the B sample comes back positive too.

Totally agree on the issue about the lab and their methodology, I hope they at least are following SOPs for a change, but I highly doubt it.

And I guess it is hard to keep it confidential when the Gendarme drag him away in a police car. Man, what a risk to take and amazing that given the ever increasing scrutiny they still think they can pull it off. I believe a lot of them got away with it for a long time because the testing was very predictable. It no longer is, so I just can't imagine them being stupid enough to take the chance, and yet, they do. I always figure with most of them, there was some MD or someone with my background telling them, oh this won't be detectable because ..... and they believe it because of the letters after the persons name. Also stupid. :)

I'm still going to enjoy the tour, but dang it all I'm tired of defending that to so many people (at work mainly).

Plus, this was a Day 1 positive, and don't they all get tested on Day 1? I thought they did.

[alpinerabbit]

just remember... they have to know how to ride a bike 90 kph down a mountain... they have to know how to finish a pack sprint at 60 kph with the risk of crashing ... you can't be very smart to be a pro, in fact it's counterproductive...

[RoadRaven]

LOL Alpine... too funny! :D



This guy ( :mad: don't want to dignify him with a name at this point) is probably also one of the 6 who returned 6 inconclusive pre-tour tests which were sent for further testing.

[SadieKate]

I believe the term "if the counter-analysis confirms his positive" means if the B sample is positive, so this isn't punitive damages when the B sample hasn't been tested, its damages after the B sample comes back positive too.He's already suffering based on the first test with without a second confirming test, all with suspect methodology.

To paraphrase a no-win question, "So, Mr. Beltran, when did you stop using drugs?"

On a brighter note, it was sure fun watching Levi and Chris in person over the last two days.:D

[Kalidurga]

Beltran ...was also in US postal and Discovery Channel

As I recall, Lance held Tricky in high regard. It'll be interesting to see what comment, if any, he has to make about this.

[tulip]

As I recall, Lance held Tricky in high regard. It'll be interesting to see what comment, if any, he has to make about this.

If he's smart he'll keep his mouth shut and not open that can of worms.

[IFjane]

If he's smart he'll keep his mouth shut and not open that can of worms.

Amen. Though I don't want to believe it, there are those who are sure Lance just never got caught...

[tulip]

Positive as in a good thing, not as in drug test.

I'm really enjoying watching the Tour this year. It started out in Brittany, where I have spent alot of time and have a personal connection to. There are new faces that I find interesting and easy on the eyes. And it appears that Bob Roll has indeed taken some French lessons since last year.

All in all, I'm having a good time with it.

[Eden]

And it appears that Bob Roll has indeed taken some French lessons since last year.

Bob is neither as stupid or foolish as he at times appears... he knows Italian very well and can pronounce French when he wants to, but if you've ever heard his hilarious story about how hard it was to get water from French waiters back when he was a racer you would understand why he tends to mangle the French language...

[IFjane]

All in all, I'm having a good time with it.


Me too! TdF viewing party #2 is tonight - my house - 7 p.m. (dinner first)

:D

[Kalidurga]

It's about time. BBC Sport news: Unnamed Cricket Player Tests Positive (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/7504546.stm).


The International Cricket Council have confirmed that an unnamed player tested positive for a banned substance in the recent Indian Premier League season.

The tests were carried out under the supervision of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), after the IPL adopted the ICC's code on doping.

Finally, WADA's hopefully found a new target. But... cricket??? Really??

[Dogmama]

Drugged crickets...I knew it!

[peachgirl]

Positive as in a good thing, not as in drug test.

I'm really enjoying watching the Tour this year. It started out in Brittany, where I have spent alot of time and have a personal connection to. There are new faces that I find interesting and easy on the eyes. And it appears that Bob Roll has indeed taken some French lessons since last year.

All in all, I'm having a good time with it.


I think Kim Kirchen's kinda cute...though the Italians and Spaniards usually are my, um, favorites...:D

[peachgirl]

Drugged crickets...I knew it!

So that's why Jiminy's always whistling...

[beccaB]

I wish there were enough people near where I live who like to watch tdf that we could have a viewing party! That would be fun. I'm always sad when it's over.

[Possegal]

Several years back there was a french rider (wish i could remember who) who finally approached bobke about his trashing of the pronunciation of his name. From then on, Bob pronounced his name right, but another rider with the exact same name, kept saying it wrong. It is all a part of the Bobke mystique. :) He knows dang well how to say a lot of it. Even now, despite how many riders speak english, french is the language of the peloton, they all can speak it well enough. Lance is really very fluent, it was fun to hear him interviewed on TV when we were over there for the tour in 04.

i'm thorougly enjoying it (working at home today and watching the tour live). when we went over, we were in the south area near the pyrenees, so the last couple days and next few, are great fun to watch given that we were in this area. heck, i found it frightening to drive the pyrenees in our car. :)

[Kalidurga]

Take that (http://unholyrouleur-jim.blogspot.com/2008/07/happy-bastille-day-its-time-to.html), VeloNews. Tsk, tsk.

Bobke is very cool and, yes, very smart. He's my favorite kind of person: Someone with a brain who's also a great big, irreverent goofball. Anyone who's a fan of the Tour who has not read his book, should.

And, may I just say... GO ARGYLE!!! Yay, Christian!

[crazycanuck]

I too was a bit surprised about the use of drugs in cricket..but..

Well, if you were an aussie/kiwi/pom/etc playing in the IPL (indian premier league) & were offered $1million/yr..someone might be inclined? You try and be a batsman when you have Shane Warne spinning that cricket ball towards ye!:eek:

It's the first time i've heard of cricketers doing performance enhancing drugs for on the field performance..Off the field is a different story...:rolleyes:

[tulip]

Baseball players do it, why not Cricket players?

[crazycanuck]

Perhaps because cricket's a 'gentleman's" game & it takes longer to play...

I can't see Andrew Symonds, Scott Styris, etc doing performance enhancing drugs. I do see them training their pitooskis off though!

[boy in a kilt]

The question is what drugs? Cricket looks like a good drinking game if I ever saw one.

[crazycanuck]

Umm yes to the drinking game..Ian told me that he & friends once went to an ODI & someone ate thier esky :rolleyes:

It's a game you have a picnic & drink wine.. How much wine can one drink during a 5 day International is beyond me :rolleyes:

Also, it was one of the Pakistani fast bowlers that was caught out..http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/cricket/7505454.stm

[Zen]

Baseball players do it, why not Cricket players?

What next, croquet :eek:?

[NJBikeGal]

You'd think they'd at least be smart enough to use something other than EPO!!! I mean, how easy is it to test for that!

Another One Tests Positive! (http://tour-de-france.velonews.com/article/80218/second-rider-tests-positive-at-tour)

[Eden]

You'd think they'd at least be smart enough to use something other than EPO!!! I mean, how easy is it to test for that!
[/URL]

I'm not judging any particular person one way or the other, but if they are still using the test I remember, I actually think the EPO test can be somewhat subjective.... the test ends up with a bunch of bands on a gel and the person reading it has to judge whether or not the epo band is "dark enough" to be a positive. Not only that, there are certain conditions that can cause a false positive on the test.

Not only that, there are supposedly ways to beat the test, with carefully controlled dosing, so it actually makes sense to me that this would be the drug of choice for a person trying to get away with something.......

Knowing those two things, I suppose if a person were to use anything, EPO would be the logical choice. You can't really explain away someone else's red blood cells or plant based testosterones in your body (not that it hasn't been tried), but the hope with EPO would be that you'd got the schedule right and won't get a positive test and if you do, there are then multiple reasons why you might get a false positive test to explain it away. Of course these days it takes longer to fight the 2 year suspension, than to just serve it.

[NJBikeGal]

I certainly don't claim to know anything about the technical side of testing for these substances. However, it would seem to me that these guys KNOW that those running the tests are going to be specifically looking for EPO among other substances. It's this type of arrogant belief that they are going to get away with using the specific substance that is being looked for that I find amazing.

Case in point #3 - Riccardo Ricco.

[Kalidurga]

In Ricco's case, he was apparently using a new version of EPO that was thought to be harder to detect. Not hard enough, though.

[NJBikeGal]

I'll just listen to Jonathan Vaughters (http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2008/07/17/the-best-answer-to-all-this-just-race)... :)

[VeloVT]

I'm kind of curious as to what's going on with Saunier-Duval. This morning during live coverage Phil & Paul seemed a bit perplexed that there wasn't more information regarding why the team withdrew.

Here's the official team statement from the Saunier-Duval website:

OFFICIAL STATEMENT
SAUNIER DUVAL-SCOTT Statement
17/07/2008
SAUNIER DUVAL-SCOTT announce that just an hour before the start of today´s stage, the French anti-doping agency notified Riccardo Riccò that he´d tested positive for a banned substance after the fourth stage of the Tour de France 2008. Although the Tour organisers allow teams to continue to participate after a positive test, given Riccò ´s important role to the team in the race, SAUNIER DUVAL-SCOTT have decided to withdraw in order to preserve the positive image of the team´s sponsors and the Tour de France itself. Riccò has been suspended.

Moreover, the team decided to temporarily abandon competition activities until this unfortunate incident is clarified.

The last line is curious? Wonder if there's concern by the sponsers that other riders might also be involved?


Anyhoo, my take on this whole issue:
People need to realize that there will NEVER be a tour that is 100% clean. Someone will always try to dope. Just like there will never be an Olympics that are 100% clean. So I get tired of hearing hysterical comments like "can cycling survive one more scandal? is this the END of cycling? this really casts doubt over the future of the tour..." when someone gets caught. I am not talking about this thread at all, I agree that it is disheartening whenever someone we admire tests positive (I was pretty upset when Marion Jones finally actually TESTED positive...of course it coincided with all sorts of other unsavory news about her, giving me a few other reasons to modify my opinion of her, but that's another subject entirely...). Versus plays into the hysteria with its anti-doping commercials (particularly the riding backwards one), you see this attitude both in coverage by mainstream media and in letters to the editor and (user generated) "comments" posts at sources like Cycle Sport and Cycling News. I think we need to be realistic about the goals and likely outcomes of testing in the sport -- and that means **not** expecting to have a tour without any incidents, because that will NEVER happen. I think the goal should be to "de-institutionalize" doping, to change the culture of the sport so that doping isn't just another part of every team's training regime. When that happens though, there will still be some dopers. Hopefully they will be caught and hopefully the incentives will continue to become stronger not to dope... I just get tired of the apocalyptic tone that often accompanies reports on doping in cycling...

Sorry for the rant/ramble...

[NJBikeGal]

Liza, I think you are right. There always have been and always will be cheaters. And I am probably always going to be disappointed when someone is caught...but it's not going to make me stop watching or loving cycling.

As for the Saunier Duval team...I have a feeling that quite a few of them were under suspicion and that they pulled the rest of the team in order to avoid a HUGE scandal and deal with a small one instead.

[Kalidurga]

I'll just listen to Jonathan Vaughters (http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2008/07/17/the-best-answer-to-all-this-just-race)... :)

Thanks for that link, Sarah. I like Jonathan V more each day, in spite of his funky sideburns (or perhaps because of them ;) ).

And I also agree with Liza. That "apocalyptic tone" pervades all news reporting these days and it's becoming very tiresome.

[Fredwina]

rumor on other web sites (pez) is that Saunier-duval is going to disband.(no word on if the team management pulled the plug or the sponsor got fed up)
so , "The Cobra" has put how many folks on the unemployment line ?:mad:

[Eden]

Now I've heard apparently all 3 people who've tested positive were caught for the new form of EPO (rEPO). The fact that there was a test for it was kept rather mum, so they probably all expected to get away with it.

[tygab]

good for them (the testers) - it's nice to see the sides are more even. I agree w/others that the team pulled out to keep other riders out of the fray somehow.

But that is what this is about isn't it? Something that's embedded itself so deeply at the team level is going to take time to eliminate as part of cycling accepted practices. That's why I've felt TGC was so out ahead on this one, that they went the other way to be transparent and non-secretive, not only about their anti-doping practices but about the actual performance of the riders and care practices they DO use. It's been very cool to not only get the updates via Twitter, though we often know the results before we sit down to watch the recorded coverage, but to also see the HR and garmin data from the stages.

I haven't read the whole thread so if it's mentioned earlier, sorry - but I think the "space legs" article from Dr. Lim was really interesting. How at first the team riders were like, ehhhh, whatever. And now they love using them...

[SouthernBelle]

I just read an interesting article by David Millar. Interesting views on doping (from one who admits to doing himself) and on ricco (who they all apparently dislike strongly).

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2008/07/17/there-are-also-heros-and-they-need-you-to-believe

[beccaB]

Maybe It's because I'm relatively new at this, but that was some amazing honesty in that article by David Millar

[Kalidurga]

That is a terrific blog by Millar. After what happened with Floyd I'm leery of referring to any of these guys as my "heroes", but VDV could change that. He, Millar, and all of the Chipotle team are just so refreshing. Go Argyle! :D

Somewhat jaded caveat, though: If I were ever to hear that any of the Chipotle guys had managed to cheat through all of that testing, that could be the one thing to make me go apocalyptic and give up on cycling...

[BikeMomma]

Good stage today, eh? Cavendish looks tired...

Ricco is apparently not so "suave." lol To call him a dumbass would be a compliment. Team Saunier D. pulling out is both disheartening and encouraging. Disheartening because on one hand it looks suspicious, i.e. pull out before the inevitable lightning struck twice, and encouraging because it appears that they may have considered how staying in might create turmoil and speculation throughout the rest of the Tour. Now they can all just get back to racing. Hopefully.

~BikeMomma

[KnottedYet]

Good stage today, eh? Cavendish looks tired...


I'm finding myself *wanting* my riders to look tired. If they are doing superhuman feats, I start to get suspicious. If they have a crappy day, or are tired and draggy after a huge effort, then I believe in them a little bit more.

[BikeMomma]

I'm finding myself *wanting* my riders to look tired. If they are doing superhuman feats, I start to get suspicious. If they have a crappy day, or are tired and draggy after a huge effort, then I believe in them a little bit more.
Yea, I feel the same way. I was mainly referring to what Mark said about quitting when he feels tired so that he could save himself for the Olympics. You can tell he just wants to keep going, but looks exhausted. It must be a difficult decision for him. No one ever wants to quit the Tour, especially with the run he's having. The guy's fast as h3ll.