Going Downhill

[ACG]

How do you get over your fright of going hill. Going up hill is the best. Do you just keep squeezing the brakes? I'm addicted to the hills. So I gotta figure this out.

[caligurl]

ohmigosh... i was the BIGGEST chicken of downhills when i first started! hubby started me out climbing right away... which was fine.. but i didn't want to go fast going down! :eek: :eek:

the first time i went all the way to the top of our local climb... i rode the breaks the entire way down! my wheels were so hot! hubby then decided no more climbing til i would lay off the breaks! (my hands were so sore too!)

anyways.. what i finally did was on my own.. i would climb a little way up the hill.. then come down... no breaks! i practiced and would go a little further eat day/time... finally i went all the way to the top and could come down without riding the breaks! (keep in mind our local hill is a straight one!)

within 3 weeks actually graduated to climbing, then descending oak glen (a popular hill in socal!) and a week or so later i did GMR!

so you can do it.. just do it in baby steps at your own pace!

[Irulan]

For me, correct technique was the key to getting out of the fear place.
the proper position for descending is butt out of the saddle, feet at 3/9, eyes looking ahead. As the trail steepens, you can move backwards to keep the CG low. Braking, one finger on the brakes. Modulate: use gentle pressure or feathering, do not grab or skid.
http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/penny/biking/images/IMG_1393w.jpg

http://www.specialtyoutdoors.com/penny/biking/images/DHbackw.jpg

[spazzdog]

And then there's the road descent... it goes something like this:


whooooooooooo-hooooooooo, lean, whoooooo-hooooo, lean again....

spazz (who loves speed)

[LBTC]

Funny

I'm pretty brave and reasonably fast descending on my mountain bike, but on my road bike I'm a complete weenie! yikes!! Especially if there is wide open space beside me (cliff, steep hill, etc) I wish I understood why so I could get over it. I mean, what's worse? A little pavement? or rocks and trees and dirt and....well, you know what I mean. So I ride the brakes down roads, and feather the brakes lightly on the trails....

yup. I'm a walking (riding) contradiction.

Namaste,
~T~

[spazzdog]

I have a traffic circle (rotary, round-about) just down the road and sometimes when I'm coming home (slight downhill) I'll go shooting into the rotary (yes I look for cars) and do a couple laps just to get that lean at a good speed (usually about 24 mph at entry).

With light traffic, it's a blast... you should see the expressions on drivers faces as I pass them or stay even with them. Yee-hah!

spazz

[Trek420]

tips on cornering, decending. This be for the roadies:

1) Brake before the turn then, simultaneously-
2) Stand on the outside pedal
3) Head up, look through the turn where you want to go
4) Lean into the turn (no brakes)
5) zoom out! wheeeeeee.

In more detail:

1) Brake before the turn, control your speed. Good technique lets you ride fast, never ride "at the limit." Hold back a little so there's room to correct errors.

If you brake in the middle of a turn, that forces the
bike upright, which makes you ride wide to the outside
of the turn. This is not a good thing unless it's raining.

Note, if the pavement is wet you DO want to slow and take the curve upright, steer the bike. If you lean in wet conditions you risk whooosh, wheels slip out from under you.

But normally, slow before the turn, then release the brakes as you
lean into the turn so you can roll through without any
braking.

2) Weight on the outside pedal. This means, the
outside pedal should be down (at six o'clock), and the
inside pedal up (at twelve o'clock). You should
really stand on the outside pedal, so your butt is not
on the seat, and you have no weight on the inside
pedal. Stand on that outside pedal all the way
through the turn.

This does two things.
a) it's a balance thang (insert drawl here), like carving a turn on skis
b) more important it's a safety thang. if your inside pedal is down you risk catching it on the pavement and then down you go.
c) I sometimes pedal through the turn, still keep the action light on the inside edge.

3) Head up. Look where
you want to go. This means even though you're leaning
your bike, your head is upright and looking ahead. Your
bike goes where your eyes look, so don't look at the
pavement in front of your wheel. Focus on the road
ahead, where you will exit the turn. Look at the safe line.

4) and, of course, lean the bike as you

5) stomp on the pedals...whoopeeeee.

At first, it's hard to do all of these things
simultaneously while rolling through a corner. So practice through corners at less than full
speed. Practice each of these elements, separately,
then in combination, until you can do them all at the
same time.

When you feel that these techniques allow you more
control over the bike, then gradually increase speed
on subsequent downhill runs. This way you can build
confidence and technique without getting in over your
head.

To Repeat,
your approach to a corner looks like this:

Outside pedal down, using brakes to control speed,
head up looking as far as you can see through the
turn.

Entering the turn:

Release brakes, lean into turn with full body weight
standing on outside pedal, head still up, eyes looking
through the turn.

Roll all the way through and set up for the next
turn.

It's like learning anything, e.g. dancesteps. You
talk yourself through the routine at first, then
supposedly it becomes second nature. Thought I'd pass
this along just in case you find a kernal in it.

[Veronica]

Don't overthink the problem.

Tires lose their traction at about 1 G of force. This means if you're going through a corner that requires about 1/2 a G, and you brake at 1/2 a G (which is HUGE - that's equivalent to 30 degree slope) you still only have about 3/4 of a G on the bike. That's like doing 20 miles an hour through a 33 foot radius turn - picture a good size traffic lane, a bike lane, a sidewalk and a small median. (Did it on the tandem. :D )

So given that, the likelihood of something bad happening due to your cornering ability is small so long as your gear is maintained and the road is dry and free of debris. Maximum cornering speed comes at a 45 degree lean angle (you and the bike). Keep the lean angle less 35 degrees (from upright) and you have lots of room for mistakes. In other words, as long as you don't wiggle around a lot, your actions on the bike are less important than the traction between the road surface and the tires. So, sand, oil, water, slick pavement and bumps are the real things to worry about.

My advice is to find someone who goes faster downhill than you and follow them. Take exactly their line. Whatever they can do on their bike, you can do on yours.

V.

[LBTC]

My advice is to find someone who goes faster downhill than you and follow them. Take exactly their line. Whatever they can do on their bike, you can do on yours.


Good advice, V! heck, it worked on the mtb, it might as well work on the roadie! :p

Now, if I can only get them to slow down just a little so I can see which line they're taking.....

namaste,
~T~

[Veronica]

For years I did not descend very fast. On my first organized century (Tahoe) I went into a corner much faster than I would have normally - leaned the bike over hard. Thom was behind me and was shocked at how fast I took it. Me too! But it was a real eye opener. I really DO know what to do. Tandeming helped a lot a too. I got used to fast descents on the tandem - the rush of wind etc.

I just look at what is ahead and plan for it. I don't think about leaning or where my weight is. Inside pedal up is kind of an automatic thing.

Good luck.

V.

[SadieKate]

2) Weight on the outside pedal. This means, the
outside pedal should be down (at six o'clock), and the
inside pedal up (at twelve o'clock). You should
really stand on the outside pedal, so your butt is not
on the seat, and you have no weight on the inside
pedal. Stand on that outside pedal all the way
through the turn.

This does two things.
a) it's a balance thang (insert drawl here), like carving a turn on skis
b) more important it's a safety thang. if your inside pedal is down you risk catching it on the pavement and then down you go.
c) I sometimes pedal through the turn, still keep the action light on the inside edge. Weight on that outside pedal lowers your center of gravity which increases your stability. A tiny bit of pressure on the inside handlebar combined with this will help force your tires to grip better. Practice this last bit with a feather touch. I found I could corner tighter and faster with much more confidence.

[Trek420]

veronica sez to "find someone who goes faster downhill than you and follow them. Take exactly their line. Whatever they can do on their bike, you can do on yours."

ok, if you say so, this would be me following you :eek:

[wabisabi]

Another thing I read about and tried is to be in the drops and bring your knees alongside the bike, rather than pointed out, a la motorcycle riding. I tried all of the other suggestions posted and this, and it actually worked! My biggest fear is that the roads up here are so bad that I am afraid of getting bumped off (or having a bear on the road, but that doesn't happen too often. ;)

[Veronica]

I'm a lot more cautious on roads I don't know and blind corners on all roads. You never know what might be in your lane.

V.

[spazzdog]

From a driving manual for motorcycles... the theory applies to bikes too. The graphics show the best line to take through different types of curves. For downhill entry, you need to be very aware of your entry speed... you will need to feather more speed off than you would on a flat entry.

[LBTC]

Nice lines, spazz! yup, I get that theory, and use it whenever possible. I just have this irrational fear of that big, wide open hill to my right when I'm on the road....it feels like it wants to grab me and send me careening down and down and down....so my lines around some of the corners are definitely not the most efficient if they take me close to the edge at all. :eek:

anyone else have a strange fear like this?? I really do hate it...most people think I'm quite fearless! :cool: and, coincidentally, it seems hills that drop away to the right freak me out on the road, hills that drop away to the left freak me out on trails....could I be any weirder?? :p

Namaste,
~T~

[spazzdog]

I think that fear of soaring through space NOT attached to your bike anymore is quite rational actually.

Fear is OK... it breeds respect and I think fear is a strong incentive for skill work (IMHO).

The ones that have no fear (usually synonomous with no sense) and therefore go barreling through everything are the ones that usually end up in a ditch.

When I motorcycled, I went to a track day for women. While practicing lines into the many turns, the instructor said "pick your line, stay with it and TRUST YOUR TIRES". THey will do their job if you do your job.

[Aramei]

I chickened out on my first short, steep hill this past weekend. I am mad, disappointed, upset with myself that I didnt at least try...but at the time I just didnt feel ready.

I did however go down some long downhill that had some buried logs/railroad ties. That I rode with my brakes on all the way down, but I made it!

My fear is going down the hill too fast and hitting a root or soemthing and losing my balance. I am still very new to mountain biking (only rode 3 times so far on new bike)

I did read the post on going up a little way then coming down...that I think i can handle as it isn't too steep. Its the ones where you have no choice but to take the whole hill or walk down/up.

Hopefully this weekend I can try it again.

[LBTC]

Just keep trying Aramei! You'll do it!

For mountain biking, it may help to "session" a small area. here in town we have a small bowl or gravel pit. It's got varying steeps down into it, it's pretty smooth, and you can practice just pointing the bike down and getting your weight back. Over time you can practice going down as slow as possible in complete control (i.e. no skid, or virtually no skid), or going down as fast as possible! Both are usable skills on the trail.

When it comes to mountain biking, it's important to ride mostly in your comfort zone, and occasionally push the envelope when you're feeling confident. If you're not confident about it, you're more likely to screw up and get hurt. Your instinct to not do that hill was probably good that day. I hope you're riding with someone who knows what they're doing and is also patient!! A total must for developing your confidence and skill!!

Good luck, hon, keep trying, but keep safe!!

(so says the girl who once broke her shoulder trying beat DH's time on a trail...and once thought she was queen of the mountain and prompty knocked the wind out of herself and put 10 ribs out of place...owie...I still feel that one sometimes!) :eek:

namaste,
~T~

[Melody]

Having a fear of going over an edge isn't irrational. One thing I had learned when I took the MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) class is that you tend to follow where you look. So, to avoid the edge, don't look at it. :) Find your line and hold it through your turn. It's tough, but if you glance at the edge while following the line, you may end up drifting toward it.

What's interesting is that racing cars (rallying) is the same way. :) You want to turn your head to follow your line. You tend to turn towards the direction your head is turned. :p

Mel

[Irulan]

other skills to practice sessioning for mountain bike DH

really slow riding... use your brakes but don't lock or ski
same as above, but now just use your front brake
practice getting behind the saddle and laying your tummy on it, while riding
lower your saddle - on the flats!
Do some lift served downhill. Not being tired from climbing and just focusing on the ride down is a lot of fun. You can do a lot of miles which will helpyou get comfortable.

irualn

[spazzdog]

Ah Irulan!

Do the same rules for road downhill and curves hold true for MTB?

I haven't a clue since I'm an asphalt kind-o-gal.

[Irulan]

Ah Irulan!

Do the same rules for road downhill and curves hold true for MTB?

I haven't a clue since I'm an asphalt kind-o-gal.

hmmm. lots of factors. If you are on a dirt/fireroad you will have smooth areas and gravel filled areas. Best to not cut through the gravel. For singletrack, some of the ideas of body position for corner can be applied - example would be putting your elbow and knee into the turn, but your "path" will be confined to the trail. And feet at 6/12 isn't a good idea, there might be rocks at 6 clock.

~I.

[Pink Kona]

Going downhill reminds me of skiing. It's a control thing, I think. I have a friend who crashed hard while skiing - and unfortunately that transferred to the bike. She has the ability to ride downhill - but the fear consumes her. I've watched her walk her bike downhill before - and it is something that only she alone can overcome. Caligurl had a great suggestion for when the fear is too much - conquer it in increments.

For me, like skiing, downhills are the reward for all the climbing, headwinds, and stinging rain. I enjoy each nanosecond of it. Like standing at the top of a double black diamond - where anything and everything will be thrown at you and your legs, you just have to do it. Sure you may fall at first - but practice on the smaller hills. Work your way up - slowly and at your comfort level. Just make sure you have a grin on your face afterwards - or back it off a little. Whatever you do - don't get in over your head. Otherwise your fear may cause a minor error that could turn into a major issue.

It's the best when you're running 53-11 and can't keep a high enough cadence to push any more. I make sure my equipment is in tip top shape - my brakes work, my hub is running smoothly, my wheels are perfectly trued and my helmet is tightly strapped beneath my chin. That way the fear of equipment failure is pacified while going 40-50 mph. I am one of the crazy people you see screaming down the hill - I know, I should have more sense. But if there were downhill road races - I would be an Olympian.

[Veronica]

How did I know Fillmore was 25%? Was I guessing? Did I read it somewhere?

Weird.

V.

[Veronica]

I found this...

Fillmore ...* It climbs 190 feet over a 700 yard run for an average grade of 10% and a max of 18%.* Believe me it’s much worse than it sounds.* The last two blocks are so steep the sidewalks have steps cut into them.* ...Taylor Street is almost as steep, but a shorter climb (2 blocks as opposed to Fillmore’s four).* It has a max grade of only 16%.*



I guess I'll have to eat my earlier words. Can I have a cookie with that?

V.
Source (http://www.littlechainring.com/)

[Adventure Girl]

More googling...
The Steepest Streets in the City
1. Filbert between Leavenworth and Hyde (31.5% grade)
2. 22nd Street between Church and Vicksburg (31.5% grade)
3. Jones between Union and Filbert (29% grade)
4. Duboce between Buena Vista and Alpine (27.9% grade)
5. Jones between Green and Union (26% grade)
6. Webster between Vallejo and Broadway 26% grade)
7. Duboce between Alpine and Divisadero (25% grade)
8. Jones between Pine and California (24.8 grade)
9. Fillmore between Vallejo and Broadway (24% grade)
(Source: San Francisco Almanac)

[Veronica]

Okay AG - now find us some pictures of these beasties.

V.

[spazzdog]

and you pedal up these "little" hills.

I'm imagining one of those in New England after the first ice storm:

And welcome to OLN's coverage of the New England "Human Bowling Ball Championships".


Look at the speed Spazz is getting off that 2nd step.... ooooh!

That's gonna leave a mark! :eek:

[xeney]

I hope it is not inappropriate to say that this is about the most interesting and helpful thread I have ever seen on any bike forum ever. Hills scare me but you all just made it all make sense, and you even used math and physics. Brilliant and practical.