How much braking power should I expect?

[indysteel]

During my recent ride in Tennessee, I felt like I had a lot of trouble braking sufficiently on some dangerous downhills, but I really have no idea how much braking power I should reasonablly expect in the first place. All I know is that my hands starting cramping from the effort of getting my bike to slow down even a smidge. With another ride in Tennessee coming up in September, I'm a little worried. I will encounter some long descents there.

My Bianchi came with Campy Mirage brake calipers and they're one of the few components that I haven't upgraded. I have replaced the brake pads (I think I have Kool Stop pads in their right now), and they've offered some improvement from the stock pads. I keep my rims reasonably clean and my bike shop roughs up my pads periodically to expose some fresh compound. The cables were replaces this spring, although I should probably have my shop check for stretch.

Beyond the bling of a nicer set of brakes (and they wouldn't necessarily have to be Campy), is there a difference in calipers? Is there anything else that I could do to get more out of my current brakes and pads? If new calipers would help the situation, is there a brand/model that anybody can recommend?

[alpinerabbit]

Not good.

Even Mirage brakes should allow you to come to a full panic stop with a yank on the brakes.

Maybe the cables are stretched? I think that's what makes my commuter slow to respond.

This video shows a full stop at 3:45.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdrrxIpQpt4

[indysteel]

Not good.

Even Mirage brakes should allow you to come to a full panic stop with a yank on the brakes.

Maybe the cables are stretched? I think that's what makes my commuter slow to respond.

I'm going to talk to my LBS about it again. Since it's the only roadbike I've ridden in hilly terrain, I don't have any point of comparison. I was watching some other riders on the descents this weekend out of the corner of my eye and none of them seemed to be working quite as hard to slow down.

[SadieKate]

Indy, you don't ride a lot of long descents in Indy, do you? Could you have had your hands clenched slightly on the levers for a longer period of time than normal and your hands just tired? Common problem for folks with small hands.

I use hand exercisers that rock climbers use to strengthen my hands. Daily whacking away at the keyboard just doesn't do much for hand strength.

Just a thought as I think those brakes should be fine. Modern short reach dual pivot brakes should stop you with no problem. Only things I can think of otherwise, some of which you've covered: grease or water on rims, stretched cables and/or the point of engagement on the calipers needs adjusting (could be too wide).

[SadieKate]

Also, could you have had your brakes engaged just enough that the pads glazed a bit on the descent and your rims heated? I know a small rider who heated through her rims descending Diablo because she was slightly dragging them the entire time instead of applying and releasing, and repeating.

[Fujichants]

My first time going on some scary , twisty, curvy downhills, my hands also hurt and I also felt like I wasn't applying enough pressure on the brakes...the reason why is because I was afraid if I braked too hard, I would lose my balance. Plus add to that the fact that I was super stiff and freaking out...ahahaha.

I also felt like I wasn't slowing down enough just feathering the brakes, but I know my bike definitely did slow down, because the distance between my bf and I seemed to be getting greater. I think it is just another sensation that takes some time getting used to.

[mimitabby]

are you sure you FIT this bike right?

if your hands are in an unnatural position, they're going to hurt, i don't care how good the brakes are.
If you are over extending, this is not good.

[SadieKate]

Mimi, I've been on plenty of very long downhills when the hands of everyone in the group cramped and fatigued. Descents of several miles can be wicked hard on your hands no matter what the fit.

[mimitabby]

here's a quote from an 1890 novel about bicycling (three men on wheels)

On Monday afternoon Harris came round; he had a cycling paper in his hand.

I said: "If you take my advice, you will leave it alone."

Harris said: "Leave what alone?"

I said: "That brand-new, patent, revolution in cycling, record- breaking, Tomfoolishness, whatever it may be, the advertisement of which you have there in your hand."

He said: "Well, I don't know; there will be some steep hills for us to negotiate; I guess we shall want a good brake."

I said: "We shall want a brake, I agree; what we shall not want is a mechanical surprise that we don't understand, and that never acts when it is wanted."

"This thing," he said, "acts automatically."

"You needn't tell me," I said. "I know exactly what it will do, by instinct. Going uphill it will jamb the wheel so effectively that we shall have to carry the machine bodily. The air at the top of the hill will do it good, and it will suddenly come right again. Going downhill it will start reflecting what a nuisance it has been. This will lead to remorse, and finally to despair. It will say to itself: 'I'm not fit to be a brake. I don't help these fellows; I only hinder them. I'm a curse, that's what I am;' and, without a word of warning, it will 'chuck' the whole business. That is what that brake will do. Leave it alone. You are a good fellow," I continued, "but you have one fault."

"What?" he asked, indignantly.

"You have too much faith," I answered. "If you read an advertisement, you go away and believe it. Every experiment that every fool has thought of in connection with cycling you have tried. Your guardian angel appears to be a capable and conscientious spirit, and hitherto she has seen you through; take my advice and don't try her too far. She must have had a busy time since you started cycling. Don't go on till you make her mad."

(this is intended to be comic relief)

[indysteel]

Also, could you have had your brakes engaged just enough that the pads glazed a bit on the descent and your rims heated? I know a small rider who heated through her rims descending Diablo because she was slightly dragging them the entire time instead of applying and releasing, and repeating.

I generally brake and release repeatedly to avoid overheating so I don't think it was that. And my fit is good. I can reach my brakes without any problem from my hoods and drops. These descents were steep but not overly long. If they'd been any longer, my hands would have really cramped up. There's an 8-mile climb in Tennessee that I want to do in September, and I want to feel more confident about it than I currently do.

I've got an appointment with my fitter tomorrow and will chat about it with him. As a general matter, how much do the calipers themselves matter?

Thanks, gang!

[Eden]

I think the calipers make a big difference... many bikes with middle of the road Shimano (not sure about Campy) group sets have cheap Tektro brakes on them. IMHO they aren't very nice.... I can definitely tell the difference between good calipers and bad ones - mainly in how grabby they are, the good calipers are much more smooth, but yeah maybe in how hard you have to grip the brakes too.

That said, I think long descents can be just as tiring as long ascents.... if its a twisty descent and you have to do a lot of braking, it can be quite hard on your upper body. So, some of it may be the brakes and some of it may be getting used to the descending too.

[SadieKate]

The calipers can matter a lot but Mirage are modern dual pivot short reach calipers. These should be plenty stiff.

Remember that those calipers would have been Record calipers only a few years back.

BTW, were you smiling as you were descending? I ask because it helps you relax. I wonder if you had your hands tensed even if you weren't squeezing the levers. Just asking because I certainly empathize.

Yeah, I thought your fit would be good.

[alpinerabbit]

yeah talk to the bike store guy. have him try it out on a full stop and see what he thinks.
Have him check the rims, too.

ps. yes, there are differences. I found the cheaper 105 on our rental bikes more "aggressive" than my ultegra or previous campy. they bite, but you can't "dose" as subtly. But that should not be your problem as you're saying they don't bite at all?

[Tuckervill]

That was great, Mimi, thanks!

Karen

[indysteel]

The calipers can matter a lot but Mirage are modern dual pivot short reach calipers. These should be plenty stiff.

Remember that those calipers would have been Record calipers only a few years back.

BTW, were you smiling as you were descending? I ask because it helps you relax. I wonder if you had your hands tensed even if you weren't squeezing the levers. Just asking because I certainly empathize.

Yeah, I thought your fit would be good.

Smiling? Probably not. For some reason, these downhills in particular had me spooked because they had sharp turns at the bottom that the ride organizers warned us about. Plus, some of the roads were kind of torn up. I felt more uneasy than I normally do. I'll watch my upper body tension next time.

Frankly, I was tense all the way around for at least half of this ride. I had the hot foot from hell and it made for a very long day in the saddle.

I'll make sure everything checks out. The more I think about it, the more I have to wonder if my cables have stretched since March. That seems like a likely issue.

Thanks for all the helpful input.

[aicabsolut]

Calipers matter. In my experience trying to stop from slow speeds (anticipating the stop) on a steep downhill grade (almost always catch a red light at the bottom), Ultegra calipers are a huge step above 105. I will probably upgrade my 105 calipers to Ultegra or Ultegra-SL before I upgrade my shifters because they bother me so much. I can lock up a wheel without too much effort on the flat by grabbing hard, but there's something about these calipers where some added gravity is just too much for them.

I know that some other manufacturers (SRAM, Campy), tend to have similar functionality in lower end models as higher end for all components, and weight and design are the primary advances made with more $$, but perhaps not with everything, like your calipers.

[SadieKate]

Campy has traditionally brought in new designs at the Record level and then moved everything down a level (last year's Record is relabeled as current year's Chorus). Those Mirage calipers should be the same as the Chorus brakes I rode from 1999 to 2007, and were plenty powerful.

Campy has also been known for stiffer arms across the levels as opposed to Shimano, which has had noticeable differences between levels.

Indy, I betcha that the tenseness had a lot to do with it. I've done the same thing.