drops/brakes

[elk]

Are those f you who have drop bars able to reach your brakes from the drops?

I can't.....

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I got short reach brifters with the shims installed on my new bike.
BIG difference. What a relief!!!

[Flur]

I can, but I have long fingers. I also have Campy brakes and that seems to make a bit of difference from what I've heard.

[NbyNW]

Small hands, Campy brakes, and I can reach them in my drops . . . but I don't really spend much time in that position.

[VeloVT]

I second Lisa's suggestion of short-reach brifters, and also, what bars are you using? Some anatomic bends can "fall away" from the levers too steeply, depending on hood placement and hand size.

I recently put FSA Wing Pro compact bars on my bike, and the round bend puts the curve of the bar much closer to the levers than most of the anatomic bends I've had. It might be worth taking a look at different bars too.

[OakLeaf]

I can actually brake better from the drops because my fingers are extending directly toward the levers rather than trying to wrap around them from the hoods. I can only really reach them with 2-1/2 fingers, but that's plenty.

[dachshund]

I've never used the drops, it makes me bent over too far. I'd like to drop the drops right off my handlebars, since they're dead weight to me.

[elk]

BRAKESET
Tektro forged
alloy cantilevers
with Shimano Tiagra STI levers and Tektro
safety levers

HANDLEBAR

Ritchey BioMax II Road, 380mm (47),

[alpinerabbit]

oh but you should be able to use your drop position, especially for descents - much more power on the brakes, and control of your bike!!

[elk]

oh but you should be able to use your drop position, especially for descents - much more power on the brakes, and control of your bike!!

yeah! that's what I thought...so what are my options?

[aicabsolut]

Try WSD bars or bars labeled as "compact" (like the FSA ones mentioned) or "short-reach". The bend in the bar will generally make it so the levers are a bit closer. Also take a look at where the hoods are positioned on your bars. If you can move them up or down a bit and then change the bar rotation to make them comfy on the top still, you *might* be able to get the levers a bit closer. I think SRAM levers have adjustable reach. Some people like Campy for its design too, though I think I'd have a hard time using the thumb shifters from the drops. There are also wedges you can get installed in Shimano shifters to bring them closer. Note if you install these, you may need to loosen your brakes.

For me, the bar change was all I needed, but I have fairly long fingers.

[dex]

I had Tiagra levers and couldn't reach them from the drops for anything--I have really short fingers. I ended up changing my bars to the short-reach Bontrager FIT (similar in shape to the FSA bars that aicabsolut has mentioned), which helped a little but I still couldn't comfortably reach. Ultimately, I needed the combination of the short-reach bar and short-reach brifters with a shim (Shimano R700) to get enough reach to get a solid grip (i.e. more than one finger) on my brakes from the drops--descending became a far more fun and less harrowing experience after that. :D

There's another discussing of this stuff here:
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=23110

[sundial]

Are those f you who have drop bars able to reach your brakes from the drops?

I can--after I had shims installed on the brake levers. Me and Levi.....;)

[rij73]

I thought Tiagra levers came with shims...

[dex]

I thought Tiagra levers came with shims...

Mine didn't. *shrug*

[SadieKate]

Short Reach is the horizontal measurement from the horizontal top of the bars to the front curve. It accomplishes a couple of things: decreases the total length of the cockpit (seat to hoods) and decreases the volume of the drop so someone with small hands isn't hitting her forearms on the top bar when riding in the drops (a bit of flare of the drops can help here also).

Short Drop is the vertical measurment from the horizontal top to the bottom of the drop.

The reach to the levers has more to do with the bend of the drop. As you research bars, be very careful that you understand that reach can mean different things.

The very elegantly translated Deda Elementi site talks about the bend's affect on reach to the lever:
The use of anatomic bendings has been spreading for many years and has supplanted the bendings conceived by past champs. Neverthless the last ones had and have the advantage of an easier gripping of the brake lever, if necessary. The gripping of all anatomic bendings is more difficult in case of users with small hands and not so easy for the other ones.
Deda Elementi has conceived an ANATOMIC version of any of its bendings with easier gripping thanks to a distance which is 13 mm. shorter than the one of all other bendings on the market.

[TxDoc]

Are those f you who have drop bars able to reach your brakes from the drops?

I can't.....

My guess is that if your bicycle is properly fitted (frame size, saddle height, fore/aft position, stem length, right spacers on the headset... and such) - you should be able to use your brake levers and shifters comfortably both from the hood and from the drops.
I would suggest that you get with your LBS and ask them to fit you properly. That may include some simple changes like re-orienting the handlebar or moving the position of the levers on the drops - or something more complex like adding/removing spacers, changing stem, moving the saddle back or forward...
Good luck!

[elk]

I'm a little puzzled, I suppose, about where my hands go....
If you look at the HB on this Aurora, you see there is a ledge where the curve straightens. I cannot reach from there...but heck, I can't imagine any hand that could looking at the config....Yet it looks like the right place to rest a hand.
If I put my hands inside the upper belly of the curve I can reach. :confused:

[aicabsolut]

I'm a little puzzled, I suppose, about where my hands go....
If you look at the HB on this Aurora, you see there is a ledge where the curve straightens. I cannot reach from there...but heck, I can't imagine any hand that could looking at the config....Yet it looks like the right place to rest a hand.
If I put my hands inside the upper belly of the curve I can reach. :confused:

That's kind of what SK was talking about with the ergo bends being not so ergo. Part of the problem in that picture is the mounting of the hoods. Part of it is the design of the bars. The final part is your hands. Ideally, you should be able to reach the brakes even resting on the flat part of ergo bend bars. The only place where they should be out of reach is way down near the bar ends, but most of the time you don't ride there. WSD bars have very short drops, so there isn't even much between the ergo bend and the bar end.

So long as you're comfortable up on the top part of the curve, I wouldn't worry about it. That tends to be a more aero position than being lower on the drops.

[SadieKate]

I'm a little puzzled, I suppose, about where my hands go....
If you look at the HB on this Aurora, you see there is a ledge where the curve straightens. I cannot reach from there...but heck, I can't imagine any hand that could looking at the config....Yet it looks like the right place to rest a hand.
If I put my hands inside the upper belly of the curve I can reach. :confused:Yes, those are Ergo curves. I hate that "ledge" or bump as you call it inside the curve. It's really more of a place to rest your hands when cruising. If you are descending, you'll want your hands tucked up inside the curve to access the levers with the best grip and because this is the most stable descending spot for most people

It is not uncommon for those of us with small hands to have the best braking power up inside the belly of the curve also.

Maybe Shaq can reach his levers from any place in the drops, but no one else can. You have to find the optimal place for you to grip the levers for the situation. Cruising along on the flats in the countryside with no traffic? Put your hands where they are the most comfortable.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Elk. I have short fingers too.
With my regular drop bars and regular Shimano brake levers on my Rambouillet, i was just barely able to grab my brakes and get two fingertips around them. Those Shimano brake levers do not have shims that are made for them. Not good.
I switched to a short reach bar (Salsa Poco) and that helped a little bit. But still it was scary going downhill fast with just the ends of two fingers barely wrapped around the brake levers. And believe me, I tried putting the hoods in all different places.

Fast forward.....
On my new Luna I again had Salsa Poco bars put on, but this time with Shimano Short Reach brifters (R600 9-speed in my case, R700 for 10-speeders) with their shims installed. OH MAN what a difference. Like night and day. I can get all my fingers nicely gripped around the levers now.
If I were you I would go for it. Juggling bars and angles just didn't cut it for me. On steep downhills it is safer to be braking in the drops.

[elk]

Elk.
Fast forward.....
On my new Luna I again had Salsa Poco bars put on, but this time with Shimano Short Reach brifters (R600 9-speed in my case, R700 for 10-speeders) with their shims installed. OH MAN what a difference. Like night and day. I can get all my fingers nicely gripped around the levers now.
If I were you I would go for it. Juggling bars and angles just didn't cut it for me. On steep downhills it is safer to be braking in the drops.

do you mean change brifters and bars?

[VeloVT]

Elk,
I actually think it might be a good idea to switch bars and brifters. Start with the bars because that wil be much cheaper, and who knows, it could fix the problem...

I have had those Biomax bars on two bikes. They are nice, comfortable bars, but if you have the hoods fairly high, it will put the levers a bit far away -- there's actually not a very wide range of adjustability for the hoods, assuming you need the levers fairly close.

I haven't actually seen the Salsa bars Lisa talks about, and I know they are short reach, but in spite of the shorter reach, they are still an anatomic style bend that can have a tendency to put the ramps a bit far from the levers. I would not assume that changing bars could not make a significant difference for you just because the Poco's didn't make enough difference for Lisa -- I would suggest looking for a more traditional bend (which, sadly, can be hard to find in smaller sizes, for some reason they think men like these things more than women. grrrr).

Edit: in any setup, you may have to slide your hands up a little to use the brakes. I will note on my ride this afternoon whether or not I slide up the ramps to shift/brake or whether I can do it from the natural cruising position, and will report back. In any case, I ride in my drops often and can easily shift and brake in the drops -- I'm sure you will be able to find a setup that allows you to do this too.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

do you mean change brifters and bars?

If you really want to solve the issue completely.....yes. :o

You need short reach brifters with their shims put in.
The good news?- they are a lot easier to get now than they were a few years ago.

[elk]

the top of the salsa bar looks really short...is it comfortable for riding the hoods...which is where I am 80% of the time?

Also...I am a bit consternated:eek: about the shim...where does it go? Can I do it myself?

tia

[Flur]

That's kind of what SK was talking about with the ergo bends being not so ergo. Part of the problem in that picture is the mounting of the hoods. Part of it is the design of the bars.

+1 on this. I'm looking at my bike and the flat parts of my drops where my hands should go are not angled so far back. They're much closer to vertical than what's in the pic above. And my brifters/hoods are mounted lower, so that there's almost a straight horizontal line where the hood meets the bar that's level with the top of the bar. I can keep my hands in the flat of the bar and reach the brakes pretty easily.

http://www.bianchiusa.com/typo3temp/bf60398b9c.jpg

[Zen]

Bontrager FIT VR w/BzzzKill damper inserts
Tiagra integrated shifters with shims.
I gots small hands and these are rated 5 stars (by me:D)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb14/zencentury/trek_pilot12_wsd_07_m.jpg

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

the top of the salsa bar looks really short...is it comfortable for riding the hoods...which is where I am 80% of the time?

Also...I am a bit consternated:eek: about the shim...where does it go? Can I do it myself?

tia

Here's my setup, it's really comfy for my small hands:
http://lh3.ggpht.com/Strumelia/R_VLNUasNOI/AAAAAAAAAkg/XIcS5vFeKj8/biketree.jpg?imgmax=720
I personally love my ergo Poco bars. I get 5 different hand positions with them, and yes they are VERY comfy for me on the hoods.

Whoever installs your new brifters can put in the shims that come with them. I think it's not rocket science to put the shims in though. They are just simple molded plastic pieces.

[elk]

lisa, when do we get to see your hands on the bars? and you on yr new bike, eh???:)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

lisa, when do we get to see your hands on the bars? and you on yr new bike, eh???:)

I know, I've been very bad. :(

Sorry, I will try harder, I promise! :o

[SadieKate]

Also...I am a bit consternated:eek: about the shim...where does it go? Can I do it myself?

tiaThe shim goes in the pivot/attachment point of the lever.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

ok, just for you Elk cause I know how you feel.....

Here is a comparison of my finger reach between my Rambouillet with non-shim-able plain Shimano brake levers.....and my Luna bike with Shimano R6900 shimmed brifters. I am not squeezing the levers in any picture. Both bikes have Salsa Poco bars.
You should particularly take note of where my pinky reaches to on the levers- that gives you an idea of how long the stretch is for my hands in either case. It's hard to convey the comfort difference in photos.

6346

6347

6348

6349



more in next post.....

[SadieKate]

Lisa, why didn't you keep the bar rotated level on the Luna? The bar and the levers are definitely both in different positions that the photo of the entire bike.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

more....



6352

Here's the R600 shim, the black thing right above the name Shimano.
6354

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Lisa, why didn't you keep the bar rotated level on the Luna? The bar and the levers are definitely both in different positions that the photo of the entire bike.

It's an optical illusion from the photos. I haven't changed a thing.
Notice the stem looks like it's pointing DOWN in the close ups as well, but it's actually pointing slightly up, as you see in the full shot photo. In the closeups I turned the front wheel to the side to be able to maneuver to take pictures. My top ramps are pretty level when riding, and the whole setup is very comfy.
Beats me why they look different, but the bars and levers are in the same position as they were in the whole bike photo (and no they have not slipped). ;)

[SadieKate]

Isn't that funny? In the whole bike photo, the bars and levers all look set up "properly" (as in how I'd set them up, level with nice smooth transitions), but in the close-ups the angle makes it look like there's a horrible swale between bar and lever which is just hand-pain problems waiting to happen. Weird.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Isn't that funny? In the whole bike photo, the bars and levers all look set up "properly" (as in how I'd set them up, level with nice smooth transitions), but in the close-ups the angle makes it look like there's a horrible swale between bar and lever which is just hand-pain problems waiting to happen. Weird.

I know. Camera angles do weird things. Go figure.

[Tuckervill]

I absolutely hate the ergo bars on my Trek 1000. From the first moment I tried to ride in the drops, I felt like I would slip off the ends. My experience was always with noodle bars on old ten-speeds, which had flat parts on the bottoms, with plenty of room to rest my hands.

On the Trek, I feel like if I let go, I'm going to hit my nose on the headset (which I did when I was 9 and broke my nose, so that's not fun).

This is a starter bike, though. I'm looking at a Grail, from Chainwheel in Little Rock, (their steel ones are built by Waterford). I'm not going to change anything on the Trek or get a new bike until I'm at least doing 1000 miles a year.

Karen

[SadieKate]

I'm with you about the Ergo bumps and short ends. It makes the drops unusable by me. I want a nice dent in a traditional curve drop, the dent to bring the levers closer but the traditional curve to give me that nice flat space at the bottom for cruising.

[elk]

Bontrager FIT VR w/BzzzKill damper inserts
Tiagra integrated shifters with shims.
I gots small hands and these are rated 5 stars (by me:D)
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb14/zencentury/trek_pilot12_wsd_07_m.jpg

Zen...I have the same Brifters...your bars look really accessible!!!!

[elk]

WOW, Lisa....those pix were worth thousands of words! thanks so much!


I still, however need a picture of you riding yr Luna Bee...in my mind you're on the Riv.....;)

Why? Becasue when I first started riding, I was using you on yr bike photos as a kind if "fit" guide...they were ---of course---very helpful.....

you must be a Sag or a Virgo.....???:cool:

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

you must be a Sag or a Virgo.....???:cool:

Taurus. :rolleyes:

[elk]

way off....:o
but Taurus women are my faves....;)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

way off....:o
but Taurus women are my faves....;)

Hey, my Luna just showed up in the Luna Cycles photo gallery, it's 'famous'! :p :p:
http://www.lunacycles.com/Gallery.html

[elk]

and I think it's one of the best looking of all the Lunas....!

butternut...;)

[elk]

Nitto Noodles? too big I think..???

I found a good price for the salsa pocos....here's my set-up (not the stock photo)

should I get the salsas? my hit is that most of you think it will help me reach from the drops.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Nitto Noodles? too big I think..???

I found a good price for the salsa pocos....here's my set-up (not the stock photo)

should I get the salsas? my hit is that most of you think it will help me reach from the drops.

I had the Nitto Noodle bars on my Rivendell and they contributed to my long reach problem. I switched to the Salsa Pocos and it did help some. So I also got the Pocos on my new Luna.
I see you already have ergo bumps on your current bars in the photo?....if so and you like the ergo shape, then the Pocos would be similar but shorter reach for you. (it still won't give you longer fingers to reach around the brake levers though, for that you'll need shimmed short reach brifters)


P.S. I still say that's one gorgeous bike!

[SadieKate]

I see you already have ergo bumps on your current bars in the photo?....if so and you like the ergo shape, then the Pocos would be similar but shorter reach for you. (it still won't give you longer fingers to reach around the brake levers though, for that you'll need shimmed short reach brifters)The Poco bars would shorten the cockpit (length from saddle to bar drop) but not shorten the reach from bar to brake lever???? So she would not have to lean as far forward to reach the bars, but still would have problems grasping the levers?

[divingbiker]

I tried the Salsa Pocos and I still had the reach problem. The ones I ended up with are like Zen's--Bontrager Fit VR.

[elk]

ah...excellent points you make....I don't need a shorter cockpit....I need longer fingers....I can ALMOST get them all around...

sooo..I need shims. Or should I get a new set of levers? Or try the shims first.


I'm SORRY if I'm being dense...I can't quite get a clear sense from the thread about my best option.
:o

I know...I'll take a photo of MY hand!!!!

thanks Lisa:p she's my ride...wonder how ol'Sandra is liking her Aurora....

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Yes the first (and best) thing to try is to see if they make shims for your current brifters! That would be a simple solution to the hand-grasping-the brakes issue.
Don't just take an LBS's word for it- see if you can contact Shimano and ask them if shims are available for your model shifters (I assume your brifters are Shimano?).
I thought you already knew that you had non-shimmable brifters....sorry, or I would have recommended this first before changing bars. :(

[elk]

here's where we are

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Yikes i know that feeling well.

Nice clematis.

[dex]

Looking at those pictures, I think the first thing I'd try is repositioning the levers a little further down on the bar. That might buy you just enough distance to make you feel more comfortable getting a bit more of your fingers around the levers.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Looking at those pictures, I think the first thing I'd try is repositioning the levers a little further down on the bar. That might buy you just enough distance to make you feel more comfortable getting a bit more of your fingers around the levers.

I know that seems to make sense, but have to say I tried that on mine and it just made my finger reach even worse. I tried everything. Shims were the only solution that really made a big difference in the hand spread and solved the short finger problem for me.

[dex]

Ultimately I ended up changing out my levers to solve my reach problems, but I don't think it would hurt to try moving the levers as a first step. If it happens to work, great. And if it doesn't, there are still other options to try. Just a thought.

[elk]

i'll give it a try.

I finally found my Zinn book buried under a pile of old New Yorkers...(the magazine, not the people:rolleyes:)
He suggests first changing the bar....sigh

I'll check out the shims, move the levers and then see. I want to put my brown Brooks leather tape on anyway....:p

they're Tiagras

thanks for all the suggestions!

(I have been looking at Terrys...for someday...)

[madscot13]

are you sure all shimano's not shimmed with the same shims?

now say that 10 times fast!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

are you sure all shimano's not shimmed with the same shims?



Only on the south seashore.

[han-grrl]

I am so glad this is being discussed, because it think this is the problem i am having with descending...the pics are really helping!

thanks!

[VeloVT]

I am going to try to illustrate with pictures what everyone has been saying about handlebars. The issue you are having with handlebar reach is associated with the bend shape of the handlebar, not the reach (imagine a vertical line drawn perpendicular to the ground, from the bar top to somewhere at the end of the drop. Now bisect that line with a horizontal, perpendicular to the ground line that extends to the farthest point at the drop bend. The distance of this second line is the "reach" of your bar), or the drop (that's the length of the first line, actually). So "short reach" or "compact drop" bars are not necessarily going to help. To illustrate:

Here is a picture of my old bike, with Ritchey Biomax bars (anatomic bend) and NO SHIMS. The distance between the drop "ramps" and the levers is fairly large.
6435


Here is a picture of my new bike, with the same Biomax bars, with shimmed R700 levers. Notice the distance between the levers and the ramps is a little smaller with the shimmed levers.
6436


Finally, here is a picture of the new bike, but with FSA Wing Pro bars. Notice that with the more traditional bend, the ramp "falls away" from the levers much more gradually, and the levers are much closer.
6437


So, to summarize, shims will make a difference, but it's a smallish difference (though a smallish difference may be all you need). As to your question regarding whether switching bars will help, I think it depends on what you look for in a new set of bars. I think that new bars CAN make a difference for you, but I'm not sure an anatomic bend like the Salso Pocos have is going to do what you want, even if it is "short reach" and/or "compact".

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Even though they are somewhat related, we are actually taking about two different reach issues- the overall reach from seat to hands on bars....and the hand reach around the brake levers. Important to keep these two things distinct, especially when talking to LBS guys.

[elk]

Yes, Liza...I see.

I was looking at the Bontrager bar that Zen has...also Specialized makes a WSD bar.. but Zen's is more compact. I'll check the FSA ones too.

I have those Ritchey Biomax on there now....

Again....though....how would those more compact bars affect riding on the hoods? My fave place.....

oh....and Zen has the Tiagra brifters like mine and hers are shimmed. So it can be done.

thanks

[ilima]

Are those f you who have drop bars able to reach your brakes from the drops?

I can't.....

Yes and no. I have two main positions in the drops. One is the hammer position, where my hands are near the ends of the bars. I cannot reach the brakes from that position.

The other position is a bit higher up, and, yes, I can reach the drops from there. I prefer to be in the drops on descents because I feel I have a lot more braking power vs. on the hoods.

I use a non-anatomic bar; got sick of only having a stub of a place for my hand at the end on my short and shallow bars. Easton EC90 Pro bend. Love them!

[elk]

OK...these are the 3 bars I'm looking at (assuming shims and moving the levers will also help..)
The FSA doesn't come in 38 which I have now...
(and regardless...I decided I don't like the Ritcheys for these reasons and more)

What are your thoughts? I'm kind of drawn to the Dolce....?

in order: Dolce WSD / other Specialized WSD / Bontrager

[VeloVT]

Elk:
The FSA Wing Pro compact DOES come in 38cm -- it's what I have on my bike :D.

Here's the specs on FSA's website; note that the REGULAR (anatomic, non-compact) Wing Pro starts at 40cm, but the compact is available in 38.
http://road.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=223&pid=196

Not every store stocks the smaller bar, but you can buy them online here (I did):
http://www.masherz.com/products/fsa/wingprocompact.htm

It looks like both of the Specialized bars have anatomic bends, for what it's worth, so they may not put you much closer to the levers than your Biomax bars.

[VeloVT]

Again....though....how would those more compact bars affect riding on the hoods? My fave place.....


The compact drop does not affect riding in the hoods at all. The tops are in exactly the same place as they would be on a bar with deeper drops. You will just not be quite as low when you are in the drops.

A short reach bar, on the other hand, depending on the shape of the bar, will probably bring you back a little when you are on the hoods. The effect is similar to shortening the stem a little, depending on how much difference there is between the old bars and the new ones (this is pretty easy to look up). You probably shouldn't notice much going to a short reach bar though, because I believe the Biomax actually has a shortish reach (doesn't it?)...

[elk]

my stem wants a 26.0 bar...???

[VeloVT]

Hmmm... Elk... it looks like both the Fit and the Dolce both only come in OS diameter too...

if you can't find the perfect 26.0 bar, you could just get a different stem I guess :(...

[elk]

this is getting complicated...I love my stem...it is adjustable up and down...hhmmmmm is right!!

[elk]

http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCEqProduct.jsp?spid=25311

this one is 26 (it's the middle one in my previous post)


just read this on BikeFOrum:
Salsa Poco bars have the shallowest drop of any bars to my knowledge. They also have among the shortest reach, which is the distance from the centerline of the bar to the most forward point on the front of the bar. Short and Shallow bars are the next in line, but have both more reach and more drop than the Poco. The Ritchey BioMax is close to the Short and Shallow.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Elk, if I were you I would just first get shims and put them in. (you said Zen got shims for her identical brifters to yours). It would probably solve your finger reach issue and is the quickest cheapest easiest thing to try first.

[elk]

I will.

I also just found another identical thread and Kathi got these bars which would work...and now I want new bars:D

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=6655&highlight=modolo+venus&page=2

where do you GET those shims??????????? Or do the shops have them in with the wrenches....:p

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I will.

I also just found another identical thread and Kathi got these bars which would work...and now I want new bars:D

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=6655&highlight=modolo+venus&page=2

where do you GET those shims??????????? Or do the shops have them in with the wrenches....:p

Have you tried perhaps posting a WANTED thread here on TE under ForSale/Wanted forum? I'm sure there are women out there with your same shifters who have not used the shims that come with them....maybe they have your shims sitting in a box in their garage!
You must be sure to specify your exact model of brifter though...and they are Shimano Tiagra, right?....what model #??

Funny note: I googled "Tyiagra shims" by mistake and google asked me if I really meant to search for "Viagra shims"...... =8-D

[elk]

let's talk about me a little longer...:rolleyes:

Lisa, Liza et al ;look at these and tell me if you think these will help...(I'm on the hunt for shims)

http://www.modolo.com/1_road_handlebars_temp.php?id=9



i've grown to dislike the look of those x treme ergos like these Ritcheys I have.. and I don't prticlualry find that lenading very comfortable...

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

let's talk about me a little longer...:rolleyes:

Lisa, Liza et al ;look at these and tell me if you think these will help...(I'm on the hunt for shims)

http://www.modolo.com/1_road_handlebars_temp.php?id=9

I can't quite decipher the wording of their description:
"Five-stars comfort introduced in 1998: higher raise for "Gran Fondo" allowes a very comfortable rest-giving position, that is extremely appreciated especially in the long distance races and a very short shape "Venus" than decrease to 12 mm. the brake-lever distance. "

HUH???? Very confusing. :confused:

Compare that to Salsa's helpful descriptions of their bars, where they give exact measurements...including both REACH and DROP distances:
http://www.salsacycles.com/handlebars.html

[elk]

i think it's just a bad translation....:p here's a better one:
http://estore.websitepros.com/1939518/-strse-158/Modolo-Women%27s-Venus-handlebars/Detail.bok

[elk]

here's imilia's easton:
hers is the carbon EC90 equipe pro

[VeloVT]

Just noticed a dumb but confusing typo in my earlier post.


The issue you are having with handlebar reach is associated with the bend shape of the handlebar, not the reach (imagine a vertical line drawn perpendicular to the ground, from the bar top to somewhere at the end of the drop. Now bisect that line with a horizontal, perpendicular to the ground line that extends to the farthest point at the drop bend. The distance of this second line is the "reach" of your bar), or the drop (that's the length of the first line, actually).


Ok, that section in red should read "a horizontal, parallel-to-the-ground line." Oops.

Elk,
The Modolo bars have a nice shape, that does look like it could bring your levers closer. My only concern about them is that it looks like they have given you a fairly limited range of hood adjustability, if you want to take advantage of that nice curve. Modolo has a very specific place where you are "supposed" to put the hoods. The picture in earlier TE thread you referenced shows this -- notice her hoods are fairly low, at least compared to how a lot of people are running them now. If you are comfortable with your hoods on the low side, those bars should be fine. If you like to run your hoods a little higher, you might not get quite as much benefit from that bend (it might still be better than what you have though).

Something like this might give you more hood options while still bringing your levers closer:
http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=24737&subcategory_ID=5255

Oversize, though... Why can't they just use one standard???!!!!!

[elk]

the Easton bar comes in 26.0....and Sierra has it...but the smallest size is 42...38 is the size that of the Ritcheys on my Aurora; I can;t imagine 2mm per side would make that much difference for me. ?

also, Liza, re the Modolas, my stem is adjustable and one can always adjust the position of the bar IN the stem..right?

boy o boy...I learn alot from this list!!!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

the Easton bar comes in 26.0....and Sierra has it...but the smallest size is 42...38 is the size that of the Ritcheys on my Aurora; I can;t imagine 2mm per side would make that much difference for me. ?

also, Liza, re the Modolas, my stem is adjustable and one can always adjust the position of the bar IN the stem..right?

boy o boy...I learn alot from this list!!!

If you need a 38 bar you should not get a 42....it might lead to subtle shoulder/elbow issues. Plus, again, it might make it harder to wrap your fingers around the brake levers if the bar is too wide.

[VeloVT]

the Easton bar comes in 26.0....and Sierra has it...but the smallest size is 42...38 is the size that of the Ritcheys on my Aurora; I can;t imagine 2mm per side would make that much difference for me. ?

also, Liza, re the Modolas, my stem is adjustable and one can always adjust the position of the bar IN the stem..right?

boy o boy...I learn alot from this list

Elk:
you wouldn't think it, but 4cm makes a BIG difference. I can definitely tell the difference just between 38s and 40s, and find 38s more comfortable. My old bike came stock with 42s, and they were very awkward for me -- much too large. Don't compromise on size just because Sierra has a good deal... you'll regret it.

As to the ability to adjust the bar in the stem (rolling it up or down) -- yes, you can compensate with this a little bit, but there's a fairly small range of bar angles that put both the tops and the drops at comfortable angles, so don't count on being to make up too much.

I don't think your adjustable stem is going to address the potential issue of limited hood adjustability, because the problem isn't the actual height of the bars/hoods (from the ground, or relative to your saddle, or whatever), but the angle they put your wrist in at a given placement.

If it's any consolation I obsessed endlessly about which bars and which stem to get for my new bike :).

[elk]

I found the Easton bar...equipe pro...in a 40.....??

is the shape and size otherwise good?

[VeloVT]

I think the Equipe Pro looks like a good shape.

40 is a really common size -- maybe you could find a friend who has 40s and take his or her bike out for a spin to make sure the size is comfortable before you commit?

[elk]

AH! I was at some friend's last night, looking at old Cinelli bars which I thought were sweet and round and look what i found....in 26 38cm:

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=21452&category=636

[elk]

argghhh
here's what I have so far

current: Ritchey Biomax ergo 130 drop 75

others:
138 110 cinelli traditional curve 110 is the measurement of the bottom of the bar
130 75 easton "
125 80 modolo "
138 86 deda elem4 girls ergo?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Elk, check your email- I located some Tiagra shims for you.

[elk]

Elk, check your email- I located some Tiagra shims for you.

*@"*@"
.....\/ ......

that's my attempt at a bouquet of flowers...looks like an owl though...:D

[elk]

to further complicate matters....or perhaps to simplify...http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7414&category=1726

shims that turn 26.00 bars into 31.8 capable bars...which means I could actually get those FSA Wings like Liza's which I like the looks of....

:eek:

LOL here I am talking to myself again....I do it in life too:rolleyes:

[VeloVT]

to further complicate matters....or perhaps to simplify...http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7414&category=1726

shims that turn 26.00 bars into 31.8 capable bars...which means I could actually get those FSA Wings like Liza's which I like the looks of....

:eek:

LOL here I am talking to myself again....I do it in life too:rolleyes:

Those will adapt a smaller bar to a larger stem. I think you have the opposite situation (you have a small stem that you WISH would take a larger diameter bar). So sadly they won't help :(...

[elk]

d'oh!


---------------
I actually Found a 38/42 TTT Eva!!! Ordered it....I like the looks of it...and it's in Seattle!

[aicabsolut]

OK...these are the 3 bars I'm looking at (assuming shims and moving the levers will also help..)
The FSA doesn't come in 38 which I have now...
(and regardless...I decided I don't like the Ritcheys for these reasons and more)

What are your thoughts? I'm kind of drawn to the Dolce....?

in order: Dolce WSD / other Specialized WSD / Bontrager

I have an older version of the Dolce in black. They made all the difference for me in reach. They are thick, so you want to be sure your stem fits.

As for location of the hoods, I'd say you might not want to move the hoods lower on the bars but rather higher and then rotate the bars downward some.

[VeloVT]

INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW:

how do you like your new bars? :D

[elk]

I DON'T KNOW!!!!!

I rode 30 miles on them yesterday and they seemed kind of cramped...when I wanted to ride on the straight bar. ANd my hands were hurting (thumb/wrist) alot until my friend did a tiny adjustment..(rotated them down a bit and scooched the seat forward a mm..) But my hands are my weak spot on the bike ...I'm pretty OK every where else.

I kinda long for 40cm...instead of these 38...but I am ignorant about bar geometry.... so I don't really know!!!
:confused:

thanks for asking.:)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Did you get the brake lever shims installed?


Don't tape up your bars until you are happy with them and happy with the hood position, tilt, etc. If you hate your new bars you can probably exchange or return them if they are not scratched or gummed up from tape.

[elk]

Did you get the brake lever shims installed?


Don't tape up your bars until you are happy with them and happy with the hood position, tilt, etc. If you hate your new bars you can probably exchange or return them if they are not scratched or gummed up from tape.


Didn't put the shims in yet...the reach from the drops is E-Z...but I do need them to get better reach on the hoods...I just have to zoom in on the PDF from Shimano....

and grrrrrrrr i already taped them up!!! :o

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I still think all you really needed was the shims. :o

[elk]

i also put some foam forms on the bar...which make the bar all lumpy and fat in places...maybe that's taking up my room?

I don't get it..they look so similiar to my originals except for the shape of the drop...:confused:

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Elk, every little change is going to feel odd at first, maybe even make you feel sore for a few days too. You need to change only ONE small thing at a time to avoid total confusion.
Putting on new shaped bars, adding gel pads under them, then changing their tilt AND pushing your saddle forward all at once is not good- it will only confuse the situation and make it really hard for you to figure out why you are not comfortable now and how to fix it.
General biking rule is to make one tiny adjustment and then ride for a few days on it. Then maybe try another small adjustment and again ride for a few days.
When you make 3 or 4 changes at once all hell breaks loose and it's hard to find your way back.

My advice at this point: (putting aside the radical idea of putting your old bars back on and just installing the shims) would be to undo the last two changes...tilt the tops of the bars level again and put your saddle BACK where it was comfortable for you before, and ride a few days to give your body time to adjust to the new bars.
Leave your saddle alone, where it was comfortable before you changed the bars. By moving the saddle forward you throw your center of gravity forward more over the crank, and if anything this will put more weight on your hands. :(

Now that you have taped the bars you can't change the hood position unless you take the tape and gel padding off....(which actually might be a good idea anyway).
I put that gel on my Riv bars and truthfully I wouldn't do it again- they did nothing except make the bars FAT so that I had to buy extra tape. It looks kind of ugly to me now, like a big nightcrawler worm. :eek:

All the above is just my own opinion based on my having gone through all these very same issues myself and learning the hard way. :o

[VeloVT]

Hmmm... lots of stuff going on. I'm going to try to break my thoughts down into bites and number them so hopefully my response will seem somewhat coherent :D.

1. Depending on the kind of gel wrap you used, you may not have to totally unwrap your bars in order to move your hoods. I have partially unwrapped and rewrapped bars for adjustments before using the same tape with no problem. You have to be a little careful of course. The gel will make it more of a hassle, but even that is probably not insurmountable if you have patience.

2. Do you have a trainer? I know there's an inertia problem with putting your bike on a trainer when it's nice outside, knowing you will have to switch the skewer and everything the next time you want to ride outside :p... But I think it would be helpful for you to set up your bike on a trainer so you can actually sit on it on focus on how each adjustment feels, without the distractions of an outside ride. Leave the bike on the trainer as you adjust it, and keep getting on it and trying it out until it feels right. Assuming you're not making HUGE changes (stem height, bar width, etc), 10 minutes on a trainer should give you a very good idea of whether or not it's going to work. By the way, changing handlebars should not make you sore, if they are the same size as you had before...

3. I agree with Lisa that you don't want to change everything at once. What was the rationale behind rolling the bars forward and moving the seat forward? Was that because you were feeling cramped? If so, I'm not sure that's a great solution, for two reasons -- first, you really don't want to get into using your saddle position to adjust your reach, because outside of a pretty small range that may be likely to cause knee issues. Second, while rolling the bar forward may give an illusion of more reach, it can also mess up your wrist angle which can cause pain or numbness over time. Do the new bars actually have shorter reach than the old bars? Or is it how you have set up the hoods? One thing you *could* try that would have a similar effect to rolling the bars forward would be to adjust the rise of your nice adjustable-rise stem so it puts you down a little lower. As Lisa says though, this will tend to put relatively more weight on your hands, and that may or may not be okay. A longer stem might help too, if your reach really feels cramped...

4. When you talk about gel "taking up room", where are you talking about? Are the drops feeling like the drop is too compact? Or something else? I will say that 38 cm bars in general do not have a lot of real estate on the tops. Some bars seem to have a little more than others for some reason, but all smaller bars have small tops. I never ride on the tops, and I think part if it is that there is so little usable space up there that I end up grasping with too narrow of a grip for comfort -- if I had 40 or 42 cm bars, I might ride on the tops sometimes...

Ok, enough for now... but I really do think you should consider throwing your bike up on a trainer (if you have one) and testing each adjustment as you make it.

good luck!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

1. Depending on the kind of gel wrap you used, you may not have to totally unwrap your bars in order to move your hoods. I have partially unwrapped and rewrapped bars for adjustments before using the same tape with no problem. You have to be a little careful of course. The gel will make it more of a hassle, but even that is probably not insurmountable if you have patience.....
4. When you talk about gel "taking up room", where are you talking about? Are the drops feeling like the drop is too compact? Or something else?

Liza, I 'think' Elk put some foam pads in various places on her bars UNDER her tape.....like these, maybe?:
http://www.wallbike.com/oddsnends/marsas.html
http://harriscyclery.net/itemdetails.cfm?ID=2364

Yes, one can sometimes re-wrap the bars using the same tape if you unwrap them very carefully. :o

[elk]

I re wrapped the first half of the bar about 4 times....I might have to use some new tape or glue...on my BROOKS LEATHER TAPE:eek::eek:

My foam pads are worse than those...I wish I hadn't bought them...they just seem to make the bar fatter not softer!! Fatter and lumpy...that nad hte fact that I was wearing bigger gloves may have stolen some room from me on the tops...I also felt a bit like I had less control of the bike up there.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=7147&category=840


OK. Don't have a trainer. My hands were killing me on the first 5 miles of our trip and my friend actually made it more comfortable by moving things a tiny tiny bit.... maybe......

Part of it may be sore computer thumbs and also I'm madly working in the studio to get my show ready (I have to deliver the work THURSDAY!!) ...and that can strain my hands...

But I have to say that I'm kinda happy that's the only part that really hurts...although now that I think about it...after that adjustment, I rode another 20 miles and my back was a little sore....

I have no core strength, I admit it....I think I'll put the saddle back where it was and then see what happens. geez.

SOmetimes I ride up and down the street to test out adjustments...

oh...the Cinelli s are 140/75 and my old Ritcheys are 125/75.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

OK. Don't have a trainer. My hands were killing me on the first 5 miles of our trip......

What do you mean by "killing me"?- Sharp pain? Numbness? just weight on them? Tingling?


...after that adjustment, I rode another 20 miles and my back was a little sore....
I have no core strength, I admit it....I think I'll put the saddle back where it was and then see what happens. geez.

I recommend you put the saddle back where you were comfortable on it before.


SOmetimes I ride up and down the street to test out adjustments...

Better to ride several days to test an adjustment.

[elk]

killing me = stiff, numb...sometimes tingling, too much weight on them...I kept
shaking them out.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

killing me = stiff, numb...sometimes tingling, too much weight on them...I kept
shaking them out.

So let me get this straight- the new bars are apparently causing you to have too much weight on your hands, right? This is a bad thing.
Can you return them and go back to your old bars? What exactly was the reason you got rid of your old bars?

[elk]

I don't know if it's the new bars...or the fact that when I put them on I changed the placement in some fundamental and mysterious way ..

I changed bars for better reach ...and because I think the ergo bars (are ugly...)

but I'll put em back on with shims if I need to...although I'd like these to have a chance.

[TxDoc]

Hi Elk, I just replied to your post about bars on another thread, and then I found this one again (yep, I'm a little slow sometimes...).
Did you try the deda elementi 4 girls then? They are 38 and easy reach - so maybe it could be a solution to your problem.

http://www.dedaelementi.com/It/Products/Products_Detail.aspx?SearchMode=Component&SearchComponent=Road+handlebar+26%2c0&ProductIDMaster=377

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I changed bars for better reach ...and because I think the ergo bars (are ugly...)

For better reach of your fingers around the brake levers, right? Not to correct your whole body reach from your seat to your hands? Was your general body position and body/arm reach comfortable before, (not counting the short finger reach issue)? Did you feel your body weight was well centered befor you changed your bars, and not well centered afterwards?

If your reach problem is JUST in wrapping your fingers around the brake levers, and not a too long toptube whole body reach issue, then I personally feel the brifters shims would solve that, judging from your pictures.

Sometimes something that seems ugly but feels really good can slowly begin to look pretty beautiful. ;)
I once bought a banjo that was a good price but I swore it was the ugliest banjo I ever saw. Made with white formica kitchen counter overlay with little gold flecks in it. After I played it a while I realized how silky it was to play and how great it sounded, and then it became strangely beautiful in my mind. :)
Now it's one of my favorites.

[elk]

No, Lisa...my overall reach is fine on the Aurora...it was a fingers only problem and then I got all caught up in the romance of handlbars with their various geographies....

I was wondering about the Deda 4Girls....you're the first one.. TxDoc to say she likes them. I'll go check out yr other post...but now I wonder if they have enough "real estate" on top...although I must say I use the tops far less than i used to...

[VeloVT]

For better reach of your fingers around the brake levers, right? Not to correct your whole body reach from your seat to your hands?

Sometimes something that seems ugly but feels really good can slowly begin to look pretty beautiful. ;)


It is true the ergo bends DO tend to place the levers farther away in the drops, especially if the hoods are placed on the high side, so I don't think Elk is crazy for changing bars.

Elk, you (perhaps inadvertantly) changed to a bar the has a longer reach (that is, reach in the usual sense, not in the "wrapping fingers around brakes sense). It's not a huge difference, but probably enough to feel on the drops... I wonder if this is a problem for you?

[NadiaMac]

You can test out the shimming suggestion without purchasing the official shimano shims-- just shove something, such as felt, in the gap created when you depress the levers. Floor protectors for furniture legs work well, as they have adhesive on one side. Try them out, then remove if you don't like them. Easy.

I had the dede4girls on my old road bike. They are fairly short reach, but were too narrow for my relatively broad shoulders. I have elf short reach bars on my new bike in a wider size that fits my shoulders and it's much more comfortable. Perhaps measure yourself to see what fits-- you measure from the bump in your shoulder to shoulder while standing up quite straight (this is illustrated on the web-- look for photos). Also note that bar measurements come in two flavors-- center to center (measured from the middle of the bar) and outside to outside (measure from the outside of the bars). The difference tends to be about a cm, so it's important to make sure you know which system is in use.

finally, the arm discomfort you describe could be because your reach is now too short (the reach to the tops or hoods; not the reach to the levers when your hands are on the hoods or drops). This is the most common reason for arm discomfort, per my bike fitter.

Perhaps when you installed the new bars, the reach to the tops or hoods was shortened. If so, you may need a new stem. This happened to me when I installed my new bars, which resulted in a 1 cm shorter reach to the hoods. When I put a new stem in, adding back the 1 cm, my arm discomfort cleared up immediately. Pretty incredible how 1 cm can impact the overall comfort and fit on a bike.

finally, from your pictures, it looks like your hoods are tilted up a bit. This can put pressure on your wrists as well because of the angle that your wrist takes when on the hoods. But the perspective in the photos could be warped

good luck. it sounds like you might benefit from a bike fit, as it seems like multiple factors are in play

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

It is true the ergo bends DO tend to place the levers farther away in the drops, especially if the hoods are placed on the high side, so I don't think Elk is crazy for changing bars.

Elk, you (perhaps inadvertantly) changed to a bar the has a longer reach (that is, reach in the usual sense, not in the "wrapping fingers around brakes sense). It's not a huge difference, but probably enough to feel on the drops... I wonder if this is a problem for you?

I don't think Elk is nuts for wanting to try new bars either. We all like to try new or different things, and the theory behind it sounds good. :)

My own experience (yours may vary):
On my Rivendell, I had the very same finger reach problem as Elk had. Our hand photos are almost identical. But I also had an overall long toptube reach problem.
I first changed bars- from my original Nitto Noodle classic shaped drop bars to Salsa Poco ergo bars. That change did help my toptube body-reach issue a little bit, plus I found the Poco bars to be more comfortable overall. But unfortunately, it didn't change a damned thing about my finger/brake reach problem. :(

Then I got my custom Luna bike. I ordered it with the very same Poco bars (which I found to be comfy on my Riv). But the difference was that I also ordered it with the brifter shims already in place to help my fingers reach around the levers.
Voila- same bars, same hood placement, same bar tilt- only real difference was the shims, and my brake reach problem was TOTALLY and IMMEDIATELY SOLVED. What a pleasure it is to brake now- completely opposite from before. I feel so much more secure, especially on steep scary downhills.

So Elk- you will need to find a handlebar that you like, that is comfy for you and does not affect your body reach in a bad way or throw you off balance onto your hands. That might be some new bar you want to try, or one that you were previously comfy on. Or, maybe you will adapt to these new bars you just got and feel better on them after a few more rides?
To save yourself some time and money, try to refrain from taping up any bars until you are completely happy with how they feel after riding them for a week. ;)

But meanwhile, you have the correct model brake shims already, just sitting there... why not put them on?? The brake cable tensions will have to be adjusted when the shims are put on. Unless you know your way around cables and brakes, I do suggest you get a bike shop to install them for you so you can feel really safe.

I think if you were comfortable on your bike before you changed the bars, then it makes little sense to me to keep the new uncomfortable bars and try to make them work by changing saddle position, hood position, bar tilt, new stem, etc etc.....all to try to get as comfortable as you already were before.

Ok, I apologize- at this point I've been way too big mouthed with my opinions- I'm going to shut up now, I promise! ;-D

[elk]

don't shut up! You always make sense....

Liza..the reach: 140 vs 130 on the old bars.
If I could find that easton bar...EC90 Equipe PRO (not ergo) for a 26. stem in 40cm width...that might be perfect....same reach/drop as the ritcheys but not ergo.

unless that's the one that won't fit on a 4 bolt plate....sigh....

I was SO close, SO close before I messed with the bars...I suppose that means I can get even closer...a bike fit might be in order NadiaMAc

and BTW..elk doesn't race...although her competitive spirit is awakened at certain moments...;)

[VeloVT]

and BTW, elk doesn't race, although her competitive spirit is awakened at certain moments...;)

Such as when men 15 years older and carrying around a beer gut, but wearing full CSC kit, pass her on the MUP when she is **slowing down to avoid pedestrians ahead** ?

ahem, cough, cough. I don't know anything about this competitive spirit of which you speak :o...