Women and math

[pll]

Just thought I ought to share an interestijg non cycling story that is getting a fair amount of news coverage:

http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/index.php/Kellogg/article/women_and_math_the_gender_gap_bridged

The original article in Science (http://www.sciencemag.org/)requires a subscription or payment for access.

[Geonz]

welp, gender gap aside, we do a thoroughly abominable job in math education in this country. It's completely socially acceptable to be "just not good at math" - even the basics - and I've got nothing against better acceptance of diversity, but this acceptance is because so many people are afraid of it to varying degrees... and if you *do* like it, you're considered just a tad odd (tho' I dare say, most people just say you're lucky... not demented or amything :) )

[OakLeaf]

Well half of my double major in college was math.

Unfortunately I never used it in "real life" and at this point I'm lucky to remember algebra. Certainly not basic calculus or trigonometry :(

But the odd part, that's stuck with me.

[LainiePants]

Thanks. I enjoyed it.

[TJ_Relic]

http://xkcd.com/385/

I just finished Calculus 3 and Physics 2 this Spring, and was overjoyed to get a B and A. In my experience, men tend to be good at math in a way that makes them too big headed to study and try hard, so they don't do well. Yes, my girlfriends and I aren't "naturals" at it so much as we work our brains out to get a good grade. We are also more apt to want to understand what we are doing, versus arguing with the prof. about how to do it even though they didn't bother doing the homework all semester. Young men being told they are "good" at math/physics/etc. is hurting them because it puts their egos in the way. As a girl, I was often told I was "good" at things, but that always rubbed me the wrong way (labeled: does not take compliments well). I think it was because I knew how hard it seemed to me, and telling me I was "good" at it kind of discounted how much work it took to understand.

My ranting .02

[shootingstar]

I don't recall being discouraged by teachers or parents to be steered from math.

Just knew that it took considerable effort on my part to receive good grades in maths and hard sciences, compared to other women in my family...I have 4 younger sisters who didn't seem to agonize so much to score higher. At least 3 of them had to take several advanced math and physics courses at university level for pre-med, medical and pharmacy degrees. And a niece recently graduated from undergraduate engineering (Canada).

My father really wanted his children to enter the professions..I just went down a slightly different path..which is why he was gender-blind to this math-gender thing. For me it was constant justification of why I was overdosing on fine arts courses.

Even in our extended family, female cousins have predominantly applied science or accounting/finance degrees.

But for a teenage girl to express openly her love of math and physics nowadays, is still probably seen as unusual, maybe even wierd in some girlie circles.

In high school I knew 2 girls, my age, who were consistently just brainy in maths and physics --high 90's (out of a perfect 100 score). One of them was brilliant...and ended up going to Princeton. immediately after high school. You have to remember she came from a small Canadian city, so that was quite unusual in our teenage circles.

But she hung out alot with the nerdy-like, bright guys and was on the debating team...which to even us bright (but not academically brilliant equals) girls, a little strange to us. She never even befriended any of us academically-oriented nerdy girls of which many of us did graduate from university. Wonder what happened to her. In writing this, I just realized, she must have been quite isolated in her growing years of becoming..just a young woman.

The other student....got pregnant..during one of her university years... wonder where she is now. It's an old story..no guy liked her until she bloomed breasts, etc.

[Zen]

I'm still fuming over Watson and Crick ripping off Rosalind Franklin :mad:

[Mr. Bloom]

I'm struggling with the whole core of the article, not because I doubt it, but because I have simply not observed it the same way in my life.

First, I agree that in general, training in math is dismal in this country.

But, look at this very forum and the number of seriously intelligent women members who are employed in high level math and science disciplines. In fact, when I had a basic math problem a few months ago relating to a construction project, I came to TE and got the instant solution;)

Similar to shootingstar, the top 10 in my high school class were evenly split by gender, but the women all went on to be doctors, scientists, and actuaries (the most serious math orientation you can have IMHO).

But, I admit that my experience in private schools and business may not replicate the world as a whole...I'm just saying "it ain't so" in my little microcosm of life.

[Duck on Wheels]

Nah ... I don't believe in the "nature" argument on this issue. I'm thinking of how girls' math abilities seem to magically dwindle when they hit their teens, and how that coincides with the boys in their class hitting their teens and starting to assert their presumed "dominance" over certain fields of life seen as predominantly "masculine". A colleague of mine here was studying kids that age and how they used spaces around their neighborhoods. Girls who wanted to do snowboarding had found that they had to be on the slopes right after school for an hour or so before the boys got there. As soon as the boys got there, they mercilessly teased the girls away. A couple other colleagues studied women engineering students (hey, we're a technical university after all, and the uni has from time to time tried to do something about equal recruitment and student retention). Same thing there. It wasn't that these women weren't interested in engineering; it wasn't that they couldn't handle the math; but, men students and teachers alike consistently broke down the women's self-confidence by laughing at their mistakes, ignoring their insights, and generally making them publicly visible only as sexual objects rather than as colleagues. For instance, when a woman student contributed a brilliant observation or question ... silence. Then some male student would repeat it ... and get all the credit. And this is in Norway, which in my experience is far more egalitarian than the US. For my money (a 2-cent rant's worth, but those 2 cents do come out of my wages as a professor in sociology of science), the so-called "math gap" is just another case of a prejudice reproducing itself.

[mimitabby]

Interestingly, i was heading in the same direction as all the other girls in highschool when as a sophomore i opted for an art class instead of a math class and no one counselled me to do otherwise.
As a junior I was told the only way i could get all the math i needed for college was to take second year algebra and geometry at the same time.
That hotbed of math galvanized my brain and I aced both classes (after getting a C in a boring Algebra I class two years before) I remember competing handily with the honors boys and there not being any other girls in my class that were excelling.
My math aptititude scores were always higher than my reading, and then I married dear Raleighdon who has a math phobia.
As my sons became preteens I noticed them aping their fathers (as boys are wont to do) and complaining that they didn't like math and they "just weren't good at it"
Not wanting them to repeat their father's dismal history, I tutored both of them through basic math and basic algebra until the little lights in their heads went on. One of my sons is about to start grad school as a math major. hehehe.

I'm sorry, i got off topic. I guess what i'm saying is, the same would work for girls. the only thing that was different between me and the rest of the girls in my classes was that i was just a tiny bit less concerned about social pressures and didn't mind being a little different. I already didn't have a lot of friends so i had nothing to lose. and getting the highest grade on that Algebra II final all those years ago still tastes sweet.

[Susan126]

Very interesting article.

The reading gap made me sit up and take notice!

I'll have to share this article with some of my friends.

Thanks!

[uforgot]

I teach math including trigonometry and AP Calculus. I've taught these subjects for over 20 years. As far as problem solvers go, I have never noticed a trend toward either sex. Some years my Calc class will be mostly female and other years male. My top students also tend to be the leaders of the school, whether they are male or female, so it doesn't seem to be uncool to be academic these days. I think these studies may have been true a couple of generations ago when it was expected that females would retire from the work force with their first baby or marriage.

As far as math education being so poor in the USA. We are the only country that is expected to teach everyone equally. I have had foreign exchange students who are "tracked" as soon as they reach 8th grade or so. Their paths are chosen for them. If they show academic promise they are on the college track, otherwise they are groomed for blue collar or other jobs. I'm suppose to treat EVERYONE like they are going to college.

Picture this: 30 students in an Algebra class, some have IEPS for behavior, reading or those who are otherwise mentally handicapped. You also have the kids who are brilliant, and average, in the same classroom of course. I'm expected to teach the same material to all. Yes, Algebra is a requirement for everyone, and starting next year, Geometry will be required for graduation in our district. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but I feel like some students are being short changed their first couple of years in high school. I can't up the ante until they hit Trigonometry, in which case I tell them to buckle their seat belts.

Before you criticize, walk a mile in my shoes!

[mimitabby]

Picture this: 30 students in an Algebra class, some have IEPS for behavior, reading or those who are otherwise mentally handicapped. You also have the kids who are brilliant, and average, in the same classroom of course. I'm expected to teach the same material to all. Yes, Algebra is a requirement for everyone, and starting next year, Geometry will be required for graduation in our district. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, but I feel like some students are being short changed their first couple of years in high school. I can't up the ante until they hit Trigonometry, in which case I tell them to buckle their seat belts.

Before you criticize, walk a mile in my shoes!
I'm surprised to hear you say this, at highschools around here we have several different "levels" including honors classes. That boring algebra class that i was in so many years ago (on the other side of the country) - that was a non-honors math class with middlish students in it. (the future blue collar workers were in another class, and so were the really sharp kids)

[uforgot]

I'm surprised to hear you say this, at highschools around here we have several different "levels" including honors classes. That boring algebra class that i was in so many years ago (on the other side of the country) - that was a non-honors math class with middlish students in it. (the future blue collar workers were in another class, and so were the really sharp kids)

That's another debate. Should students be tracked? I don't even know the answer. You don't want to label a kid, on the other hand you don't want others held back. I'm also in a small school and there are only two Geometry classes and three Algebra I. You can't realistically divide them anyway if they also want to be in the band, choir and other "one hour only" classes.

Most states are also giving standardized tests that everyone is suppose to pass. We currently have Alg I end of course exam which will start this year, and Geometry end of course exam in the future. All students have to take it in Missouri, thererfore all students have to take the class. Way different than when I was in school, too...many moons ago.

[Geonz]

yea, the 'tracking' debate... it is very hard to do differentiated instruction in a skills-based class like Math. Lots easier in a content course like HIstory.

Great gobs and hordes of the population never even consider a major that would make them *take* Calculus - so who the leaders are in those classes is already a limited slice of the population.

There's an organization called The Algebra Project (http://www.algebra.org/); they believe that getting students in the math-achievement loop is a critical key in opening up the doors to high educational expectations and a fair shake at being a full-grown, full-blown active citizen in teh community.

Oh, but I loved (NOT) when my home county decided that since people who had taken Geometry did better in college, therefore everybody needed to be signed up for Geometry. Period. It's simple, right? Guess nobody explained the difference between cause/effect and correlation to them, and that the name of a course doens't give you an education.

[Mr. Bloom]

Before you criticize, walk a mile in my shoes!

My comment was certainly not intended to criticize teachers...I certainly don't see teachers as the problem, but rather, the establishment.

You also offered a perspective that I never would have considered.

What frustrates me the most is that I hire college graduates who don't have intermediary math and logic skills...and I have to teach them what I would otherwise expect to have become intuitive knowledge to them.

Is this because some teacher didn't care? I don't think so...it's because of a system that doesn't expect them to acquire this knowledge as part of their education...and I'm of course referring to higher education at this point...

[Crankin]

Well, I dislike math, and generally sucked at all of it past learning the basic facts in 3d grade. Once we got to fractions and decimals I could not remember any of the algorithms, nothing made sense and I could do a problem once and in one minute forget how I did it. Things got really bad in HS. I was tutored through 2 years of Algebra and geometry. Thankfully, when I went to school kids were not expected to be perfect in all subjects and I happily accepted my Cs and occasional Bs in math.
When I got to college, the only math I had to take was math for elementary and special ed teachers. My minor was English. I learned quite a bit in that class. But, I really wanted to major in OT and I couldn't because I couldn't do the math that was required for the science. I loved biology, but I also couldn't handle chemistry or physics. Later, in grad school, I had to take statistics. I got an A, through a study group and using a computer (very new in 1980) for the calculations.
Basically, my poor math ability stopped me from doing what I wanted in college, but for my generation at least, I was able to avoid it. It seems like today everyone is expected to do well in this stuff. I have no visual perception skills, I can't do puzzles, can't read diagrams, and I also can't figure out strategies for board games. As a teacher, I know these are all things related to good math ability.
I don't feel bad. I am a good writer and that has made up for my learning issues with math. Both of my sons went to a HS that emphasized math over humanities and it was miserable for them. We had a very high population of kids from specific groups that excel in math; my sons were the exception. They were in "college prep" math and that was the *lowest* level, except for special ed. Both have excellent thinking skills, but they just hated math. One scored 1200 on his SATs and the other 1385, but they each had a 200 point discrepancy between their verbal and math score.
You can see this is a sore point for me. Give me my books and I will be happy.

[bounceswoosh]

A topic near and dear to my heart.

As a woman in a male-dominated field (software engineering), well, I just have to say I'd personally like to believe there's no cap on my ability to manage science and math =)

As far back as I can remember, my mother was telling me that I could do anything I wanted, even be president of the United States (hah, like I'd want that job!). She had/has some mixed feelings about where that took me. I didn't just excel in academics; I've played all sorts of rough "boy" sports, from paintball and ice hockey to padded swords and, well, mountain biking.

For years, whenever I start working with a new team, she has asked how many women are in the group. I always thought she was worried about me. Turns out, she's actually super-proud of me doing so well in a male environment. Who knew? =)

I do have a fond memory of some boy in my high school physics class crowing about how boys are better than girls at math. "Really?" I asked. "What'd you get on your math SATs?" "Uhhh," he stammered, "I didn't mean *you*!" Somehow, though, I never thought of myself as good at math, even when I p*ssed my entire geometry class off by throwing the curve on the mid term.

My one really bad experience with a teacher didn't come till college, when I went to my Diff Eq prof's office hours to ask for help on how to study the material. He found out I was a Comp Sci major and rattled off all the courses I would supposedly be bad at, based on his belief that I was bad at math and logic and all of the teachers that had come before and from whom I'd gotten good grades just weren't any good (No, you pompous piece of dirt, you're just a crappy teacher). I took great satisfaction in acing classes he claimed would be hard for me, like Finite Automata, one of my favorite classes.

Ahem.

I can't speak for other women in male-dominated fields, but I am definitely strong in verbal as well as technical areas, which is a huge help for my team. Having both sides means that I can explain difficult technical processes in terms that a non-technical audience can understand, or at least feel comfortable with.

It makes me happy to see research results that appear to support the idea that at least a large portion of the gender disparity in math and science is nurture, not nature. Not surprising to me, but it's definitely a step in the right direction.

[shootingstar]

this is related. About women with math-related and other skills ..in engineering & technology sectors.

I'm sorry, this article just might disappear out of free viewing after a few weeks. From a major Canadian national newspaper website:



Fighting the female brain drain
REBECCA DUBE

From Monday's Globe and Mail

June 2, 2008 at 9:32 AM EDT

Young women are studying science, engineering and technology in record numbers. They're excelling in school and outperforming men in the early years of their careers.

But more than half of women - 52 per cent - quit their private-sector jobs in science, engineering and technology, according to a survey of 2,800 women published in the June issue of the Harvard Business Review.

The dropouts aren't disillusioned young women: They're mostly between the ages of 35 and 40.

As the world faces a growing shortage of individuals in these professions - 42 per cent of Canadian manufacturers are struggling with a dearth of scientists, engineers and computer scientists, according to Statistics Canada - the survey's authors say companies should worry less about importing foreign labour and more about holding onto qualified women.


Enlarge Image
"I've seen many people come and go. It's a big problem," says Karen Webb, an Ontario engineer who is now a vice-president at an insurance company. While she still uses her degree, she says she's found more opportunities in non-engineering fields; she adds she doesn't miss the isolation and subtle sexism she encountered when she was working in construction. Contractors would inundate her - the lone female engineer - with unnecessary change requests and otherwise try to test her.

"Things are getting better, but very slowly," says Ms. Webb, 49, who attended a conference in Guelph, Ont., late last month for Canadian women in sciences, engineering, trades and technology. "I'm shocked to hear from the young engineers and tradespeople here how much of a barrier there is. It's surprising it's still quite that bad."

The new survey, The Athena Factor: Reversing the Brain Drain in Science, Engineering and Technology, attributes this female exodus to a wearying atmosphere of sexism in the sciences, along with extreme hours and family responsibilities that tend to ramp up for women around age 35.

In the study, researchers at the Center for Work-Life Policy, a non-profit research organization based in New York, describe the experience of Josephine, a high-tech "hot shot" whose boss once nicknamed her Finn. She found e-mails addressed to Finn were entirely different, and more useful, than the mail she received as Josephine. Some were stupid locker-room jokes, but others contained vital information, from gossip about who was on the outs with the CEO to intelligence on where new investments would be made.

One of the most poignant aspects of the survey is the finding that women in science, engineering and technology are generally happy: 88 per cent of women in science, 75 per cent in engineering and 71 per cent in technology report that they love their work. And they go into the fields for different reasons than men: A majority of women and a minority of men say the ability to contribute to the well-being of society is important to them.

Young women also outperform men in science, engineering and technology jobs: 75 per cent of women aged 25 to 29 are rated superb, excellent or outstanding in their performance reviews, the study says, compared with only 61 per cent of men in the same age range.

But by the time these women reach their late 30s, the shine has started to dull. The report identified five major factors that drive women away: hostile, macho workplace cultures; isolation; mysterious career paths; extreme work pressures, and a culture that rewards risk-taking and last-minute saves over preventing problems.

At the same time, the study says, women disproportionately shoulder family responsibilities. At 35, many women are either having their first child or adding a second child to the family. They are also more likely than men to be the primary caregiver for aging parents.

Women in almost every profession feel the same push-pull forces, but researchers say that in sciences, engineering and technology, the problems are much more intense. For example, technology workers put in a 73-hour week - and that's just the average, says Laura Sherbin, co-author of The Athena Factor. The study found that 63 per cent of women surveyed had been victims of sexual harassment on the job.

"The workplace culture is like a time warp," says Dr. Sherbin, director of research at the Center for Work-Life Policy. "It's 20 to 30 years behind other workplaces."

A significant number of men - 40 per cent - also leave private-sector jobs in science, technology and engineering. But Dr. Sherbin notes that 68 per cent of men who quit stay in the field, either starting up their own company or going into government work, while half of female dropouts leave the field altogether.

Valerie Davidson, a professor of biological engineering at the University of Guelph who helped organize last month's conference, says she's had a great career.

But it was almost nipped in the bud by a high-school counsellor who told her: "Girls don't do that" (engineering).

Later, when she was working in manufacturing, she encountered a "classic bully type" who liked to make comments about how she could keep the factory tidy, she says. He seemed particularly bothered by the fact that she was a woman and had a PhD.

She got her revenge when she performed a test in the factory that he predicted would fail. It did, but Dr. Davidson analyzed the situation and realized a piece of equipment was rotating backward.

"It's not my test, it's your equipment," she told him calmly, and proceeded to fix the problem. "I had to hide my smile," she says.

Good reviews, but a good chance she'll quit

A recent study examined the careers of women with science, engineering and technology (SET) credentials in the private corporate sector. It was found that while young women regularly receive outstanding performance reviews, their drop-out rate is huge due to male-driven factors such as hostile work environments and extreme job pressure.

PERCENTAGE OF YOUNG SET EMPLOYEES (AGE 25-29) WITH ABOVE AVERAGE PERFORMANCE REVIEWS

Men Women
Science 74% 82%
Engineering 61% 72%
Technology 56% 72%
SET overall 61% 75%

PERCENTAGE WHO QUIT

MEN WOMEN
Science 42% 47%
Engineering 33% 39%
Technology 44% 56%

TRISH McALASTER/THE GLOBE AND MAIL/SOURCE: HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW.WORKLIFEPOLICY.ORG

[PscyclePath]

Dogs are good at math, too...

If you don't believe, put three treats in your pocket, and trying giving Fido only two of them ;-)

[trickytiger]

As a kid, my true undying love was reading and literature- I would (and still do) read anything I could get my hands on. I was able to pick language skills up rapidly and independently, and my teachers were happy to leave me to my own devices. Not so for math. While I'm good at it and always pulled good grades, I needed the structure of a traditional style of lecturing, which was passe in my early years of school (mid-80's). It wasn't until I had some truly terrific teachers and opportunities to study logical thinking at the age of 10 to 12 that my math skills caught up, and once in high school I actually enjoyed math class. I still think calculus is very elegant and intuitive.

I do remember getting tested in high school for our supposed "aptitudes". My best friend (now a mechanical engineer) was sitting next to me for the spatial testing portion- we both correctly finished the problem at the same time. Guess who was scored higher? Did I mention my friend is male? He solved it the more "traditional" way, where I took a bit of a detour that was judged less efficient. Less efficient for whom? Time and time again in college I would find that my solutions for math and spatial reasoning problems (I was a geologist) were not the typical method. This bothered me until my father (also a scientist) reassured me that "typical" methods often missed insights that could be helpful in solving larger problems. In other words, I was solving math problems just fine, but not necessarily in the most linear way of thinking- it was more like how my brain works when I read. Maybe that's more typically female; I don't know.

All I know is that my spatial reasoning and math skills really improved when I became a geologist and used them as a daily part of my work and research- by the end of graduate school, there was no difference between the men and women in that regard. I had an inherent ability to do this work, although I'd been told all my life "women don't do that" by everyone but my family. Thus, I really do think you become best at what you use often, and that gender differences are probably more subtle than we think.

[boy in a kilt]

I have an interesting story about women and math.

My partial differential equation professor in college was the first person to recognize that my cognitive processes are a bit unusual. She then went on to explain how she recognized it because she had the same problem (or gift, depending how you look at it).

I'd figured the whole time that I was just more stubborn than smart. Among other things, I'd been told I had no mathematical aptitude, I was possibly dyslexic (sort of true), lazy or synesthetic (also sort of true).

One of the things she taught me was how to visualize an equation and translate that back into mathematics.

The woman was freaking brilliant. You have to be to do general relativity for a living. She could mentally handle 11-dimensional mathematics.

[shootingstar]

it's too easy to stream kids in the middle of their high school years or sooner in a technical vs. academic curriculum course program.

A stunning example is (though not a female):

A brother-in-law with a PhD in engineering sciences is a university researcher with his speciality in fusion physics, also teaches 2-3 engineering courses to undergrads (2nd to 4th years), includes math. He is at a large Canadian university (University of Toronto) and has been doing this annually for last 20 years.

Guess what happened in his final year of high school? He nearly failed several of courses, which included math and science. So he had to repeat them....and did well.

[boy in a kilt]

In high school:
Algebra- Failed. Twice
Chemistry: Failed
physics: failed

after I grew up a bit:
Math: made it through second year calculus and (barely) two terms of differential equations. Threw in a year of scientific computing to boot.
Chemistry: Passed a full year of it.
Physics: Did well enough to get a degree in it.

Also, took advanced topics like graduate level fluid mechanics and marine optics.

[tc1]

Perhaps what would help all students is to explain that the things they start studying in jr high school and high school can have a direct bearing on how much money and how successful they are later. Yes, I know education is about more than just the money, but life without any money in the US quite frankly sucks.

Had I known that, I might have passed my math classes in junior high instead of wasting all my time in open rebellion. I didn't pass them because my teenage theory was that if I was the best behaved and compliant in class, the school didn't have any right to tell me what to do with my out of school hours. Like asking me to do homework.

O' course when I went to college I had to pay to take the same classes I had blown off. Topping the class in trigonometry was really satisfying.

And one last thought- I first got off track in math when presented with geometry. To me, spatial relations had nothing whatsover to do with numbers and equations.