Clipless, you can do it.

[GenHawk]

Since I'm new to "modern" cycling and clipless seems to be popular topic I thought I'd post my experience.

Since I'm an impoverished grad student, and still don't know if I want to do clipless, I bought shoes on eBay and pedals on internet clearance. Which meant I had to set it up myself, since I wouldn't ask the LBS to install something I didn't buy there. It wasn't very hard to get it all put together.

I tried it out in my kitchen doorway, first one foot clipped in - and out - then the other - then both... and lost my balance at tipped right over. Bounced off the stove and onto the tile floor; luckily I broke the fall with my wrist. :eek:

Today I rode to the LBS (about 1.5 miles) and back with no problems. It didn't feel any different than without them, tomorrow I will be going on a longer ride. Anyway, now I'm thinking "gee, that wasn't so bad," although I'm still deathly afraid of tipping over onto San Mateo (busy street).

Gen

[shewhobikes]

You and I can go into clipless land together! My LBS guy, what a sweetie, advised me to get used to my new road bike (Cannondale SR800) for a few weeks on platforms. Good thing or I might have freaked and bailed out altogether. Having put some mileage behind me, I'm going to put clipless pedals on this week. Thought about a church parking lot, but the kitchen door might be another alternative! Let's try not to break anything! I'll report back in...

[cyclingnewbie]

You're going to love the clipless pedals, once you get used to them and don't fear them any more. My pedaling technique isn't very good, so I don't really feel the pulling up part like I should, but man can you tell you are clipped on when you try to accelerate or climb a hill! Well worth the effort to get used to them. I was going to try toe clips on my new road bike, but I fell over in the LBS parking lot on a test ride because I couldn't get my foot out of one clip (hugely embarrassing, in front of the LBS guy who is 1/2 my age). I promptly ruled them out and stuck with my Look clipless. Don't let the pedals freak you out. I haven't fallen yet while clipped in after two seasons. (Oh, oh! I probably just jinxed myself!) You won't be sorry!

[bounceswoosh]

Since I'm new to "modern" cycling and clipless seems to be popular topic I thought I'd post my experience.

Since I'm an impoverished grad student, and still don't know if I want to do clipless, I bought shoes on eBay and pedals on internet clearance. Which meant I had to set it up myself, since I wouldn't ask the LBS to install something I didn't buy there. It wasn't very hard to get it all put together.

I tried it out in my kitchen doorway, first one foot clipped in - and out - then the other - then both... and lost my balance at tipped right over. Bounced off the stove and onto the tile floor; luckily I broke the fall with my wrist. :eek:

Today I rode to the LBS (about 1.5 miles) and back with no problems. It didn't feel any different than without them, tomorrow I will be going on a longer ride. Anyway, now I'm thinking "gee, that wasn't so bad," although I'm still deathly afraid of tipping over onto San Mateo (busy street).

Gen

Grats on your success! The first few weeks in clipless are definitely ... exciting.

I feel the need to be a party-pooper and add a note of caution. Part of using clipless pedals and cleats is to get the cleat angle right for your particular foot. If you start experiencing knee pain on longer rides, you may want to play with the angles or even talk to a fitter. But I'm sure many people do fine without angle adjustments, so this is just me being a worry wart!

[GenHawk]

Thanks for the tip on angle. I got SPD and I used to have knee problems as a teenager so - I went to the LBS today for a fit check. The seat got adjusted, but not the cleats, so I must have done good putting them on. :D I will definitely be paying attention to it as I ride more though to make sure they feel ok.

SheWhoBikes - make sure you lower the tension setting on the pedals! Mine came with the tension all the way up - I have a feeling it would be a lot harder to start that way...

[jobob]

My LBS guy, what a sweetie, advised me to get used to my new road bike (Cannondale SR800) for a few weeks on platforms. That was excellent advice on his part !

It amazes me how many people who might be unfamiliar with road bike geometries and clipless pedals are sold road bikes equipped with clipless pedals from the outset. What are these LBS folks thinking? Most mortals need a bit of time to get accustomed to the position, shifting, and braking of road bikes, and then to add clipless pedals into the mix from the beginning, yeesh.

There were a couple of people in the Intro to Road Bike Riding class I help teach who showed up with brand-new road bikes with clipless pedals. I felt so bad for them, they were having such a hard time dealing with the pedals on top of all the other information overload they were experiencing - one poor guy tipped over virtually every time he came to a stop that first day. He's doing better now, but I for one don't think I would have survived that kind of trauma :o

I wholeheartedly agree with your LBS guy - get accustomed to the bike first, get proficient in stopping and shifting and manuevering, then switch over to the clipless pedals. OK, end of rant :)

[trigurl]

I bought my new bike with clipless pedals :rolleyes: BUT I used my bike on a trainer several times before hitting the roads. I still have worries about the clipless and falling tho. Riding Sun I rode off the side of the road and was at a stop before I could get my foot out, I was very tired and my feet were numb, so my reflexes must have been slow, I finally pulled up hard enough to release my shoe, I haven't tightened mine up at all, I think I like it that way.

[CorsairMac]

. afraid of tipping over onto San Mateo (busy street).

Gen

GenHawk!!! Welcome to the board!! Another Abq'er!! wooohooo......and yes I cross San Mateo every day I ride to work. If it makes you feel any better, my first clipless experience I actually fell in the bike median on Carlisle and then on the bike ramp at San Mateo so been there done that!!!!! If you get a chance, there's a thread under open title "getting to know you" gives you a chance to meet us and if you're so inclined tell us about you!

OOPS!!! Guess I should start reading new posts from the bottom!! I saw you already found the getting to know you thread!

[SnappyPix]

As someone's said before, it's a rite of passage to fall over wearing clipless! Usually, sod's law will dictate that it happens in front of a captive audience - bus stop, pedestrian crossing, that sort of thing; the more people spectating, the more likely it is to happen! Rule number two is that no-one will usually come to your aid and you're often left struggling to haul yourself from under the bike, still clipped in!
Sometimes, the best way to overcome fear is to fall off - you realise it's not as bad as you expected (usually!) and that you bounce quite well! I subscribed to this way of thinking lots when I first started out!
Once you build up your confidence, you'll never go back. Traffic lights and junctions are always a challenge - especially when you get over-confident and try to bunny hop without unclipping! Pedalling backwards when you stop buys you about 15 seconds!
Seriously, it's all about anticipation. Unclipping one foot before you get to a junction will buy you time as a beginner. Gradually, as you confidence and technique grows, you'll be able to judge when and where to unclip.
If your tension is adjusted properly, you should be able to unclip whenever you need to, even at late notice - and it goes without saying to unclip at the bottom of the pedal stroke, when the leg is extended - unclipping when your knee is bent will prove almost impossible and scupper your joints to boot. Sometimes you might have to though, in an absolute emergency.
Learn to unclip with your nearside leg first - right for you guys, left for us Johnny Foreigners! Falling towards the kerb will prove second nature - in all the times I've fallen off (save for ice, when you have no control) I've fallen away from the traffic - something in my psyche knows it's the right thing to do!
Good luck GenHawk - you've bitten the bullet and are good to go!
Welcome to the board too, btw!

[ACG]

I know this sounds dumb. To get myself used to clipless. I rode with one foot clipped in and the other foot I wore a tennis shoe. Alternating sides when possible. Looks weird, but seemed to work.

[awm03]

xxx

My first post to this forum, ahem! Nice to meet you all!

I'm an experienced rider, old school in many ways, putting three kids through college & I tend to skimp on equipment to save money (t-shirts & shorts instead of biking clothes). I've been content to ride in sneakers & the old toe clips/cages for years. I bought a new bike last fall, though, and am thinking it's time to switch to real bike shoes & clipless pedals. It's very hilly in our part of Connecticut, and I'm sure the clipless would be an improvement over the rubber cages that came with my bike.

Are the shoes stiff & uncomfortable? Is it something you just get used to? Do the clips lock your feet into one position so you can't shift around? I do kinda like being able to move my feet around on very long rides. Any tips on how to pick from the many types of clipless pedals?

I like ACG's suggestion of clipping on one side & using a tennis shoe on the other until you get accustomed. Great idea!

[CorsairMac]

welcome again awm!!...type clipless pedals in the search box and you should get a ton of hits. We just had one going recently about Speedplays, also type in sore knees - you should get some hits on clipless under that heading too. The only 2 times I ever fell on my clipless I was unclipped on one side - I just forgot the Other side was clipped in and tried to put That foot down too! :eek: Like someone said in another thread - it gets to the point you don't think about it anymore, I always unclip on the right so I just know I can't put the left foot down. I tried toe cages loooooonnnnnn time ago and hated them. Until clipless I just rode with nothing on the pedals.......now I can't imagine ever riding without clipless!

[Grog]

awm03 asked:
"Are the shoes stiff & uncomfortable? Is it something you just get used to? Do the clips lock your feet into one position so you can't shift around? I do kinda like being able to move my feet around on very long rides. Any tips on how to pick from the many types of clipless pedals?"

There are many shoes available. You can buy very stiff road shoes with protruding cleats that don't allow you to walk that much when you're off the bike, but I found mountain bike shoes (that actually look like hiking shoes) quite comfy and easy to walk with (the cleat is integrated to the sole). They probably don't give me as much power, but starting from no automatic pedals, it made a big difference. I got used to it instantly. Nearly fell twice, but managed to unclip at the last second (they're probably not too tightly set - but I never unclip unexpectedly so why change?).

Can't tell about the shifting of position - seems to me that I can move enough, but I don't know how much moving you'd like to do. In all cases, if you're like me, you could always unclip and stretch out once in a while.


ACG wrote:
"I rode with one foot clipped in and the other foot I wore a tennis shoe."

I'm not sure whether it's my specific pedals-shoes combination that does the trick (Shimano SPD, Garneau mountain bike shoes, on a road bike) but I can ride for short distances without having my foot clipped to the pedal. I also unclip long before stop signs and when I ride behind old men wearing hats. I do a lot of that in the city, especially when there's a lot of traffic. Once in a while I do get clipped unintentionally, but never on both feet, and it's easy to get out of it anyway.

[shewhobikes]

I think I posted somewhere here on my recent clipless status. First day I fell over from a dead stop and bounced the back of my head on the asphalt. :eek: Thank goodness for good helmets! Problem was the tension was too tight.

Now I've gotten several weeks in clipless with solo and group rides. Tension just about all the way out and I like it that way. I, too, sometimes clip in unintentionally but it's no big deal, I just turn my ankle and voila. I also use Shimano SPD and Shimano mtn bike shoes that I can walk in, which I like alot.

Since the head-banging incident I've had a couple of close calls (get one foot out and inadvertently start to lean in the other direction) but so far I've stopped myself from falling.

All in all, I love the feeling of being "connected" to the bike and being able to use my hamstrings to pull! :) Try it, you'll like it!

[slinkedog]

Hey Shewhobikes... I've had the same problem with clipping out one foot and leaning the opposite direction. I still have a scar on my knee from a couple of those incidents.

Anyway, my husband taught me to turn my front wheel away from the foot I'm clipping out... i.e. clip out right, turn the wheel to the left. It causes the weight of the bike to fall the direction of your clipped out foot. I've never fallen since.

I'm glad you're working it all out. I can't imagine riding without clipless pedals now. BTW, I have the same setup as you... Shimano SPDs (eggbeater style... you can clip in either side) and Shimano MTB shoes.

[lkrider]

Welcome welcome...this is such a cool place. Inspirational and fun!
I think we did a lot of the same ...skimp on gear and ride anyway. I finally realized that everyone new to riding was buying stuff and I was still riding around with gear from the dark ages. After gradually adding shorts and gloves, then jerseys and finally (this year :) ) a new bike, I realized that the right gear makes a huge difference! A couple years ago another rider told me that I would be able to ride a lot longer with cleats and bike shoes instead of tennis shoes. I had used cages for years. He was so right! It feels like you and the bike are one machine. I will never go back. Be sure to get the stiff bottom shoes. They support and protect your foot ligaments-better in the long run. Like everyone says loosen the tension all the way. Don't make the mistake of starting out slow- that's when more falling happens. Go normal speed, plan your first several stops (unclip early at first) and unclip consistently on the same side to develop a natural habit.

[Bike Goddess]

Ditto from me too! I ride long rides- 50-75miles in carbon fiber sole shoes. I also have Superfeet inserts in my shoes instead of the innersole they came with as I need extra arch support. Another word- I use wool socks almost exclusively as they breath well in cold or hot weather.

Hard soles are best if you want to do century rides as you do get more support (kind of like a good mattress for your back idea).

[oph4887]

Garneau mountain bike shoes-saw these mentioned in one of the post, so I looked on the internet, there were several different kinds:
Ergo Eco Cycling
Montana
Trail Cycling
Do you know which style might be better?
Also to ACG, the tip on riding with one side clipless and the other side with a regular pedal has worked wonders. First time out I used clipless, fell with one large chain scratch. The next time out with clipless I fell, leg somehow ended in the crankshaft so it looked like a chainsaw had gone through the back of my leg. So a doctor visit, tetanus shot later I'm trying to decide if I should sell the bike and then I saw your suggestion.
This website is incredible. All suggestions/encouragments have been great. Thanks so much to all :cool:

[Grog]

Mine are Women's Colorado ('Touring' section on LG web site).

When I got the pedals and shoes I didn't want to invest too much so I bought entry-level pedals (for about 50 CDN$) and I didn't want to pay much for shoes either and the Garneau were kind of inexpensive (80 CDN$), plus they were the only pair that fit me anyway. Also, I appreciated the fact that they looked like normal shoes and almost walked as such.

So just get into the store and check out the different types and try them on and see what's best for you. Even if Type Z or Bingo or whichever kind of shoe is "better" by universal standards, it may not fit you...

Don't sell the bike! (In the worst case, just change the pedals...) But I'm sure you'll get better fast once it gets into your body's routine...

[awm03]

Thank you, thank you all for your good advice and warm welcomes! Sorry for not using the search function first (I should have known better!), but it is nice to see your replies here in one convenient thread -- thanks for that.

Interesting that falls occur when biking slowly. For the past 4 years I've done Bike New York -- 30,000 bikers pedaling through the 5 boroughs of NYC. Every year, seems, a batch of bikers fall down to the pavement, and it always puzzled me. I'll bet it's because we're all rolling to a stop, somebody can't unclip in time, falls into the crowd, and a group goes down like a bunch of dominoes. Lesson: when approaching a stop, unclip both feet ASAP so you can brace yourself on either side of the bike.

So I'm a little afraid: haven't fallen off a bike since 1975 :o but looks like the summer goal is: buy pedals & shoes, learn to use them. Let's see now, how much do I have to save per week...

[awm03]

p.s. at least having used the old fashioned toe clips since 1975, I'm accustomed to removing my feet from *something* when rolling to a stop! How's that for a positive outlook :)

[Grog]

You'll be great, I'm sure!

[CorsairMac]

I'm thinking if you can ride in toe cages, clipless will be a breeze!!

Corsair "never could get the hang of toe cages but LOVE clipless" Mac

[KSH]

Yea... I have fallen twice on my bike... both times I was clipped in and couldn't get out quick enough. DUH!

And, in situations where I have to get out quickly... I PANIC... I am still not good in tight situations.

I wonder when it becomes second nature to get out of those clips!

*Note: I have 300 miles logged on my bike since October 2004.*

[CorsairMac]

Yea... I have fallen twice on my bike... both times I was clipped in and couldn't get out quick enough. DUH!

And, in situations where I have to get out quickly... I PANIC... I am still not good in tight situations.

I wonder when it becomes second nature to get out of those clips!

*Note: I have 300 miles logged on my bike since October 2004.*...

It will happen KSH!....I was in the same boat you're in now - I Never thought it would just "happen" without me thinking about it! but it does and you probably won't even realize you unclipped until after it's over. I have a thread somewhere around here titled "will it ever get any better?" or something like where I wondered the same thing and received the most wonderful, positive support and they were right!......now here's me hoping to pass the encouragement on!

[KSH]

...

It will happen KSH!....I was in the same boat you're in now - I Never thought it would just "happen" without me thinking about it! but it does and you probably won't even realize you unclipped until after it's over. I have a thread somewhere around here titled "will it ever get any better?" or something like where I wondered the same thing and received the most wonderful, positive support and they were right!......now here's me hoping to pass the encouragement on!

Maybe it's like learning how to drive a stick shift?

You struggle for a few months and before you know it... it's second nature... and if you drive an automatic, you are trying to press the clutch!

Thanks!!!!

[xeney]

I'm thinking if you can ride in toe cages, clipless will be a breeze!!

It's not working for me. I'm trying to do clipless for the second time, but I can't even get to the point of trying them on an actual ride, because I can't even get clipped in with the bike standing still. We've adjusted everything a million times, it seems, but I just can't get the feel for it. Or I'll have the cleat right on top of the pedal and I won't be able to make it engage. I feel like a complete moron -- last time around, I finally gave up after two weeks because it was making me not want to ride at all, I felt so dumb. I'm trying again now and it's not any better and I don't know what to do.

I'm using SPD style pedals and my husband suggested I ask here whether Speedplays or Look style pedals are easier to clip into, since I seem to have a learning disability regarding the SPDs. He's only used the SPDs but he thought the larger platform of the Look style pedals might be easier for someone who is, uh, a little dumb.

Toe cages, now, those are a breeze. But they also practically reduced me to tears the first time out, so I keep thinking that eventually something will click, so to speak, and I'll get it. Other times I think that I should just make myself a special jersey: "TOO DUMB FOR CLIPLESS."

[SadieKate]

Xeney - road or mtn bike?

I use Look on the road and Eggbeaters on the dirt. I find them both easy. I used to have Ritcheys, but the Eggbeaters are much easier. Eggbeaters have 4 sides so higher chance of hitting the pedal right. Also, have you checked to be sure your shoe sole isn't in the way of clipping in?

Do you have a trainer you can use to practice?

[spazzdog]

:D I've used Speedplays for 10-15 yrs. I love 'em. There's no "wrong side".

Do you ski?

I'm told that clipping in on SPD's is like popping into ski bindings... anybody?

[nuthatch]

Xeney, don't lose hope!!! It's harder for some than others (read me ;) )- if it's not too much of a financial burden, do try some of the other styles for clipping like Look or Speedplay or even Eggbeaters. Sometimes that different style of clipping can make all the difference in your feeling of confidence (and, Lance knows, confidence is 95% of the battle). I didn't get along with SPD at all and had to switch to Eggbeater Candy - with a tiny bit of wax on the "eggbeater" part of the pedal, I could clip in much easier. It wasn't as much a precision operation like SPD was.

[xeney]

Mountain or road? Well, I'm doing this on a road bike, but my husband originally suggested that I try mountain shoes because they are easier to walk in. Unfortunately the tread on the shoe made it even harder to find the cleat, so I just bought a pair of road shoes thinking maybe that would solve the problem. It hasn't, which is discouraging.

Fortunately I haven't spent anything at all on pedals so far because I've been taking my husband's castoffs and the ones that came with various bikes, so if I decide to try something else it will really be my first investment as long as it's compatible with my shoes. My shoes will work with Look pedals and I *think* the most recent Speedplay Frogs, which are the ones I'm really eying because of the thread elsewhere here about how they are good for people with knee problems. (My husband has had three knee surgeries so I might wind up converting him, too.)

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I am going to give the SPDs another two weeks, and I am going to practice every day, and if it does not start to click I am going to look into something else.

[Trek420]

xeney "Fortunately I haven't spent anything at all on pedals so far because I've been taking my husband's castoffs and the ones that came with various bikes"

question: why did hubby castoff the pedals? worn out? old? not the hubby, the pedals ;-)

if there's signs of wear and tear that could be why things don't mesh. clean and lube those puppies and make sure your shoes are clean too. I've almost fallen over, couldn't unclip after getting some mud in there.

same thing with the cleats on wear. I wear ATB shoes on a road bike because they are easier to walk in, because of that the cleats wear faster. Check them carefully, if they show signs of pitting that could be why.

when I started clipless my LBS put the pedals on their loosest setting. Chris said "If you so much as sneeze these are going to unclip" and he was right. I've kept them that way. They are plenty tight for pedaling, I can stand for a climb and they don't come out, but they clip and unclip easily (Spazz, I don't want to hear about the time I fell ;-)

on spd there's a hex thingy toward the rear of the cleat. lefty loosie, righty tighty (gosh we're techinical here). remember to do both sides on both pedals.

Here's the catch: depending on the age of your pedals if your pedals are newer there now is a "stop mechanism" where when you've adjusted it to the loosest setting, as far as it can go it just stops. If they are old it just keeps going untils SPROOOOOIIIIING goes too far and the whole thing falls apart like a smashed watch. My mechanic says at that point you'll never get it back together. So if you think it's too tight, and you think the pedals are older, do this very slowly, gradualy and incrementaly.

[xeney]

Heh. Thanks for the advice. We have pedals of all ages around this house. I have a brand new pair with my road bike, but I have had slightly more luck with a pair that my husband took off his old mountain bike after a couple of months of use (he just upgraded to better ones, they weren't worn out). If he adjusts those to the loosest setting I can clip in about 1/3 of the time -- which is still not very good. Yesterday he had me try with the brand new pedals on the bike he bought two weeks ago, and they were the hardest so far, but I don't think he had them very loose.

[Trek420]

someone with more technical skills than me will explain this better but with SPD not all pedals work with all SPD clips, so in trying different ones check the pedal directions/manual carefully.

Once I replaced worn clips at a different LBS who said "yeah, these'll work just as well". Could barely clip in, and was worse trying to get out! Yikes.

I took the shoes and bike back to my usual shop and was told the clips were wrong for my pedals so they have to match.

[shewhobikes]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread I got so disgusted and frustrated the first week I tried clipless. Then I realized that in spite of what everyone had advised here, I'd forgotten to check the "looseness" of the tension. Turns out my pedals were set very tight--no wonder I couldn't clip in (or out!) Loosened them way on out and now I LOVE THEM. Make sure hubby checks the tension for you and ask him to get them really loose, then try again! Keep us posted!

[SadieKate]

Xeney, these are Shimano SPD not Ritcheys? The cleats for the 2 look very similar but are not truly compatible. You might check this. Also, there is a spray pedal lube (was made by Schwinn) which might help. We used it with Ritchey pedals until we changed to Eggbeaters - really helped.

If you decide to go the Look route and don't have any for a test drive, I have a very old pair, nicely broken in, that you could borrow with some cleats. While they are old and heavy, the same mechanism is used so you'd get the feel of them. Let me know and I'll help you set them up using a trainer. I commute to RC 4 days a week so it'd be easy to help you.

I'll think on this some more. It'd be interesting to see how you're trying to do it.

[spazzdog]

OK, how about this analogy...

You clip in to spds or any clipless I guess like you are slipping into a pair of high heeled party shoes...

Come on, close your eyes, and those of you who actually have slipped into a 3" (or higher) pair of Jimmy Choos :eek: visualize.


Toe down - find the shoe (pedal) - slide the ball of your foot into the footbed (front clip) - and send the heel into the fine strappy back of the shoe (clipin)


Now... everybody walk this way - right left right left..... ooooomf.

sorry. I fell down :p

spazz

[SadieKate]

You clip in to spds or any clipless I guess like you are slipping into a pair of high heeled party shoes...
Well, Eggbeaters you just kinda stomp straight down. No dance slipper tippy toe approach :D .

[RoadRaven]

Anyway, my husband taught me to turn my front wheel away from the foot I'm clipping out... i.e. clip out right, turn the wheel to the left. It causes the weight of the bike to fall the direction of your clipped out foot. I've never fallen since.



Brilliant advice
I tried it yesterday - fantastic... no worries at all about going the wrong way
Thank you so very much
I anticipate that this will give me much more confidence when stopping...
Thankyou Slinke.... thank you Slinke's hubby

[shewhobikes]

OK, how about this analogy...

You clip in to spds or any clipless I guess like you are slipping into a pair of high heeled party shoes...

Come on, close your eyes, and those of you who actually have slipped into a 3" (or higher) pair of Jimmy Choos :eek: visualize.


Toe down - find the shoe (pedal) - slide the ball of your foot into the footbed (front clip) - and send the heel into the fine strappy back of the shoe (clipin)


Now... everybody walk this way - right left right left..... ooooomf.

sorry. I fell down :p

spazz

Spazz, you are a NUT :D but yeah, this sorta is the way it is for me! If I think too hard about it I can't do it...but if I feel my way along it works better. Zen on the bicycle!!!

[nuthatch]

Zen on the bicycle!!!


The bicycle IS Zen!!

[slinkedog]

RoadRaven... glad that was of help to you. It helped me immensely! My husband was tickled that you got some good out of it, too! Happy riding!! :)

[xeney]

Thank you so much, everyone. The pedals are definitely loosened all the way, but it is getting a little easier so I think it is just a matter of practice. Unfortunately I am not steady enough yet to go on the road, which means practice is BORING, but maybe it will rain this weekend and I can get it worked out.

[shewhobikes]

The bicycle IS Zen!!

I stand, er, sit, corrected,
Shew