Small hands and STI Levers

[dsmcleod]

I've been coaching the women's cycling team for a couple of years at the University of Kansas and have come up against a mechanical issue that I'd like your input on. My wife, and some of my riders have "small" hands (in comparison to their male counterparts) and find it difficult to use Shimano levers. They find that they just cannot reach the levers when on the hoods or in the drops (even with the available shims for groups like Tiagra).

What recommendations do you have for female-friendly shifters? What solutions have you come up with if you've faced this problem yourself (or with teammates)?

Thanks

DMc

[bounceswoosh]

Are the shims the same as the "Shimano 105 STI, 10 speed w/Bontrager FIT reach adjust" stuff my Madone 4.5 WSD has?

For my mountain bike, I chose SRAM shifters because, unlike the Shimano stuff, they were unattached to the brake levers, so I could wiggle things around and give myself better reach via angles. Guess that doesn't help for road bikes, though =/ I think I heard that SRAM is getting into the road bike business, so maybe that's something to look at.

[Eden]

I personally think that some of it is just becoming comfortable using STI levers and drop handlebars. Almost all of our new riders large and small are uncomfortable riding in the drops at first and many complain that they feel like they can't reach the brakes.

I'm small, only 5ft even, and I have small hands and feet. I have standard unaltered Shimano DA levers on my race bike, with non-ergo handlbars (I tried them once and did not like them). I've never felt that I have any problems braking or shifting. I've also been riding for over 20 years, long before anything was made for us smaller folks, so I've become comfortable in this. I have a set of Tiagra short reach levers on my cross bike, and to tell the truth I don't really feel the difference, maybe I can get a tiny bit more of my pinky around them, but I don't brake with my pinky.

I also know from long experience, how I like my handlebars positioned and where I like my levers mounted on the bars - I think that lever position can make a big difference in comfort. When I picked up one bike, the shop had the bars tilted quite far up, I think to give a more upright "comfort" position, and to put the hoods high and angled up. I've seen many bikes come set up this way and I thought it was awful. It was a chore to ride in the drops that way - felt like I was always sliding down. I like my bars and hoods pretty close to level.

[dex]

My small hands and stubby fingers are very, very happy with the Shimano R700 levers. I had definite reach problems with the Tiagra that came on my bike--I could only brake from the hoods, and even then I was stretching my fingers to get far enough down the lever to pull them in. Since making the switch, I can reach the levers with ease the hoods or the drops.

It can be a pricey switch, since they usual retail for ~$350, but I found mine on eBay last year for way less.

[VeloVT]

Shimano makes a short-reach shifter, the ST-R700:

http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/road/105/product.-code-ST-R700.-type-st_road.html

These came stock on my Scott Contessa CR1 Pro. Although I had standard Ultegra shifters before and did not have a problem with reach (I don't have super-small hands), I have nonetheless found the short reach shifters more comfortable than standard shifters.

[ehirsch83]

SRAM!!!!!!!!

I used to have the hardest time with Shimano. I rode on Ultegra and I could not, for the life of me, get from the small to the big ring and vice versa. I literally had times when I would stop and get off the bike and manually adjust it.

I switched to SRAM and have been in love ever since, I am currently on my 2nd bike with it(riding Rival- it is equivalent to Ultegra) and am hoping to one day move up the line to Red, but right now Rival is perfect for me.

The double tap technology removes all issues that occur with the distance of the throw on shimano levers. I would definitaly look into it if you can. + SRAM is interchangable mostly with Shimano, so I bet you could switch out the levers and not have to mess with much else.

[dsmcleod]

Thanks for the quick responses.

SRAM is nice because the pivot point is higher and thus allows you to brake more easily when on the hoods. The down side is that the hoods are "fat" in comparison to Shimano.

Anyone like the "slim" nature of Campy for fit?

Thanks for the R700 links.

[rij73]

Another vote for the R700 levers. My small hands are very happy with them.

[Andrea]

SRAM Red has adjustable reach- supposedly Levi Leipheimer's Favorite feature of the group because he's got small hands. It's rumored that they'll be adding that feature to their other groups in the future.

[Kathi]

I love the slim nature of Campy. I use Campy Record on both of my road bikes and find them very comfortable in my small hands. Especially between the thumb and forefinger.

Handlebars make a difference too. I use the Modolo "Venus" bars. My shoulders measure 34 and they come narrow enough for me. My old bars were 38 and I didn't realize that a too wide bar affected my reach to the shifters. Even with Campy it was quite a stretch to reach the brakes from the drops. Now, with the design of the Venus bars I can reach the brakes comfortably with my ring and middle fingers.

Here's a couple of threads with my comments on the bars

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=6655&highlight=modolo+venus

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=6655&page=2&highlight=modolo+venus

And the bars on my Serotta.

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=8515

BTW, my middle finger measures 2.75" and I have had 1st graders with larger hands than mine.

[ehirsch83]

Thanks for the quick responses.

SRAM is nice because the pivot point is higher and thus allows you to brake more easily when on the hoods. The down side is that the hoods are "fat" in comparison to Shimano.

Anyone like the "slim" nature of Campy for fit?

Thanks for the R700 links.

Remember when racing, one tends to be in the drops 95% of the time( I find the only exception to be on climbs, during crits and fast pace lines there is no need to come out of the drops) so the fat feeling shouldn't be an issue, and I never noticed that they felt fat actually-haha.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I got Shimano ST-R600 (9-speed) short reach brifters on my new Luna.
http://www.universalcycles.com/images//products/medium/7389.jpg
Now my fingers can actually reach AROUND the brake levers instead of just pulling with the ends of my fingers like with my old Shimano plain brake levers.
A much more secure feeling, especially on steep downhills. :eek:

[Kathi]

When I bought my Serotta my fitter was pushing me toward Shimano specifically the R 700. To me the hoods felt fat and clunky compared to the slimness of my Campy hoods. I also did not like the ergonomics of the shifters, they seemed harder for me to brake from the hoods.

I agonized over which way I should go and decided to stay with what worked and felt to most comfortable to me. I stayed with Campy and in the long run I'm glad I did.

Years ago I had Shimano 105's on my bike. To shift I had to slide my hand sideways off the hoods to have enough reach to get the gears to engage. With the thumb shifters on Campy I do not have any problems.

[anakiwa]

Another happy R700 shifter owner here.

[madscot13]

you know they say that the campy hoods are smaller but I think the shimano feels nicer on my thumbs because there is more curve to the tops. This is expecially appreciable on the higher end Ultegra/ DA. the R600 (9speed) and R700 (10 speed) are similiar in my opinion.

[NbyNW]

I had Shimano Ultegra on my previous bike, and while I loved the feel of the mechanics, they were a bit of a reach for me, and I never felt comfortable going downhill on that bike.

My folding bike that I commute on has Shimano Tiagra mounted on bullhorn handlebars. I don't know if it's the design of the Tiagra, or how they're mounted on the handlebars, or the shape of the handlebars, but these are working really well for me.

My touring bike, which I've had for less than two days, has Campy. The reach is not going to be a problem for me. I didn't really notice the "slimness" of the hoods until reading this thread. Again, for the couple of hours I've had on this bike, they've been pretty comfortable, in the sense that I haven't noticed them. Don't know if I will feel differently as I start to go on longer rides, but I'm looking forward to finding out.

[kermit]

I recently changed my bars to Specialized Ruby carbon bars. The drop is smaller and I can now reach around the brake in the drops which I could not do before. Just a suggestion if you have a Specialized dealer in your area.

[Kathi]

you know they say that the campy hoods are smaller but I think the shimano feels nicer on my thumbs because there is more curve to the tops. This is expecially appreciable on the higher end Ultegra/ DA. the R600 (9speed) and R700 (10 speed) are similiar in my opinion.

Besides the width of the Shimano hoods the curves are bothersome. My fingers don't wrap around the curves as easily as they do on Campy. This means less leverage when braking.

[Kathi]

I recently changed my bars to Specialized Ruby carbon bars. The drop is smaller and I can now reach around the brake in the drops which I could not do before. Just a suggestion if you have a Specialized dealer in your area.

I checked out the Specialized bars when I built my bike, the smallest size is 38cm :( which was the case for many of the women's bars I considered.

I wonder why companies who market handlebars to women fail to recognize that some women have narrower shoulders than 38cm.

[bounceswoosh]

I'm not sure how much this helps vs. 38cm, but the Bontrager FIT VR is available in 36cm:

http://bontrager.com/model/06244/en

That's the model that came on my Madone, although I'm not sure which width is on there.

[Kathi]

Thanks, for me the solution was the Modolo Venus in a 34 cm.

[madscot13]

i wish these bars that everyone is mentioning came in 26.0 clamp.

[VeloVT]

Madscot -- not sure what size you need, but if 38 is sufficiently narrow, Ritchey Biomax bars come in a 38 cm width/26.0 diameter. That's what I had on my old bike. I liked them.

Also Deda makes two 26.0 models that come in narrower widths -- Piega and 4Girls. I have no experience at all with the 4Girls bar (though I think there are a few people on TE that have them), but I have the Piega on my cross bike (they were stock) and they're just kinda ok. Pretty deep drops, and the anatomic bend is not the most comfortable bend in the world. If you are looking at Deda note that they measure outside-outside, so a 40-cm Deda bar is roughly equivalent to a 38-cm c-c bar.

I wish Deda made the Newton Bar with the shallow round bend (called "Italian Classic) in smaller sizes :(. Sigh...

I'll bet Ritchey makes a few other models too, they make so many bars...

Good luck!

Edit: Biomax are also available in 36 cm. Ritchey's Pro Logic bar is also available in 38cm/standard diameter.

[Andrea]

I have the biomax bars & love them!

Mine are a 40cm, though. I went down a size from 42cm since the drops flare out a bit. I've got wide shoulders :D

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

We're really talking about two completely different issues here....bar fit and hand/brakelever fit.
The shortest shallowest narrowest bars in the world still won't help you if your fingers are too short to wrap around your brake levers. The problem of the original poster is that the levers splay too far out, for larger men's hands. Bringing the bar back just won't give you longer fingers. I found that out myself. :cool:
You need short reach brake levers/brifters and or ones with shims in them.
I really wonder when manufacturers are going to get a clue and make these things in sizes other than for men to BEGIN WITH, instead of needing to get shims. Not all levers and brifters take shims.

[Kathi]

I agree but handlebars like the Modolo Venus are designed with a shorter reach between levers and bar to address the reach issue. http://www.modolo.com/1_road_handlebars_temp.php?id=9
The only other bar I know of that addresses the reach issue is the 3T Eva but its smallest size is 38cm.

Handlebars with the correct width make a big difference. With my 38cm handlebars my elbow pointed outward while my hands curved inward toward the bar. The odd angles contributed to the reach issue. The 34 cm bar allows my elbows to be straight and my wrist and hand to hold the hoods in a "handshake" position.

Yes, shimming the Shimano levers would have also solved my reach problem but then I have the issue of the bulkiness and width of the hoods. Shifting, because of short fingers, is an issue because of having to push the lever so far. I have to twist my hand sideways in order to get the gears to engage.

Brake adjustments make a difference too. The shop employees like to adjust the brakes to their leverage and strength instead of mine. So I test the brakes before I leave the shop to make sure I can brake comfortably.

Whenever you are on the wrong side of the bell curve bicycle gear gets more difficult.

[jehocu03]

I agree but handlebars like the Modolo Venus are designed with a shorter reach between levers and bar to address the reach issue. http://www.modolo.com/1_road_handlebars_temp.php?id=9
The only other bar I know of that addresses the reach issue is the 3T Eva but its smallest size is 38cm.

Handlebars with the correct width make a big difference. With my 38cm handlebars my elbow pointed outward while my hands curved inward toward the bar. The odd angles contributed to the reach issue. The 34 cm bar allows my elbows to be straight and my wrist and hand to hold the hoods in a "handshake" position.

Yes, shimming the Shimano levers would have also solved my reach problem but then I have the issue of the bulkiness and width of the hoods. Shifting, because of short fingers, is an issue because of having to push the lever so far. I have to twist my hand sideways in order to get the gears to engage.

Brake adjustments make a difference too. The shop employees like to adjust the brakes to their leverage and strength instead of mine. So I test the brakes before I leave the shop to make sure I can brake comfortably.

Whenever you are on the wrong side of the bell curve bicycle gear gets more difficult.

How do you know what size bar to purchase?

[SouthernBelle]

Measure your shoulders from the bony areas on either side.

[Skierchickie]

So, has anyone here tried shimming STI shifters that are not of the shimmable variety? I have regular Ultegra STI 9 speed shifters from 2003 - pre-shim era. I just had a fitting over the weekend, which involved lots of changes, including rolling the bars up, a shorter stem, etc. Now on the drops I just barely can get the end of my index finger around the brake lever (it was a reach before, but not like this). Anyway, rather than spend $270 on Shimano R600 (the 9 speed version), I was thinking maybe I could rig something up. My LBS has a set of 4 degree and set of 8 degree shims that somebody didn't use, so maybe I could try cutting off the little knobs and glue the shims in place. I'm going to take the bike in and see if one set of the shims will work, but the shop owner was talking about having to adjust the brakes quite close, and the wheels having to be super-true for it to work, and it still possibly not working. Anyway, I'm going to check it out. Maybe I can do this for $10, rather than $270 + labor.

Ideally, I would win the lottery in the meantime, and would just upgrade to 10 speed Dura-Ace all around! :D Hmmm - my anniversary is in 2 weeks - isn't 18 years supposed to be something like "really cool bike components"?

So, if anybody has tried this, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks,
Jan

[Eden]

I saw somewhere out on the web a home shim job that involved gluing pencil erasers (cut off the ends of pencils) into the brake levers. I think it might have been on Sheldon Brown's web site? So I'd say yes it can be done.

On another note, I was hanging around in a LBS the other day and they has some SRAM outfitted bikes next to some Shimano short reach outfitted bikes and I had my own bike with DA levers. To tell the truth I couldn't feel a whole lot of difference between any of them. I think I might have been able to get my pinky finger onto the short reach ones, but I don't brake with my pinky so it didn't seem like too much of an advantage. I did notice that the SRAM levers were quite a bit shorter (top to bottom of the metal lever part), which I thought might have actually made them a bit harder to get all my fingers around them.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

About glueing homemade shims in/on.....I'd be afraid they would fail and come off at a crucial moment when braking hard- that could be really dangerous. And you know they would fail just when you are using them hard. Glue is usually not a good permanent fix on a bike. Your life depends on your brakes working perfectly.

[Skierchickie]

Lisa - yeah - that did occur to me too. I think the right kind of epoxy would do the trick though - I'd have to be careful about that. It's possible I'll end up just biting the bullet and investing, but I'd sure rather not if something else would work just the same - especially if, as Eden says, there isn't much difference. It was the lady who did my bike fitting that suggested it, although it didn't sound like she was speaking from experience. We'll be going through there at the end of the month, and may have a chance to stop in and have her do a check-up - I wonder if I could move my shifters down a bit more (get them pointing down a little more). I just swapped out the stem & moved the bars to the right height tonight (per her recommendations), so my next ride may tell me a lot.

Thanks for the input!

[divingbiker]

I'm in the same spot, but I've got 2005 levers that already have a shim in them and they still aren't close enough. My LBS tried to glue in some shims but the glue didn't hold and they worked their way out.

So what I've got in there now is those felt circles that protect your floor from furniture legs. They're about 1/2 inch in diameter, and fit pretty nicely inside the lever, and will be easy to remove.

Not an elegant solution, but it's cheap and it's working for now.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I'm in the same spot, but I've got 2005 levers that already have a shim in them and they still aren't close enough. My LBS tried to glue in some shims but the glue didn't hold and they worked their way out.

So what I've got in there now is those felt circles that protect your floor from furniture legs. They're about 1/2 inch in diameter, and fit pretty nicely inside the lever, and will be easy to remove.

Not an elegant solution, but it's cheap and it's working for now.

I tried the epoxyed felt pad solution once....it came off and the felt pad thingy dropped into my hoods somewhere and got lost inside. Must be still in there somewhere. :cool:

[redrhodie]

My friend, who was in town teaching an alternative materials jewelry course at a local design school (RISD), glued my shims for me!!! They're not going anywhere now! I'll ask her what glue she used (it for sure was not epoxy), but more interesting was her technique. Her expertise is with rubber, so she knew to breathe hot air on the glue, as these types of glues set up better with some heat. She also shimmed the shims in place with a little piece of cardboard to give extra pressure during the curing process. The most important thing is getting as tight a fit as possible for the glue to hold well.

My shims are by Specialized, and they fit Ultegra shifters. They were taken off another bike at my LBS, so the glue patch they had come with was already used.

[ginny]

I have campy on my bianchi and I find the reach just perfect (both drops and hoods), of course, I don't have much experience with Shimano, so I'm not sure how useful my comment is...

[Flur]

I'm loving my campy too. The thumb lever is really easy to get to - I've not ridden with Shimano, but it SEEMS to me that pushing the Campy thumb lever is a lot easier than pulling in the inset lever on the Shimano. I also like the slimness of the hoods - they feel like the hoods on my old bike that had the shifters on the downlube. I don't really have small hands though...

[redrhodie]

The fancy glue my friend used was basically a different brand of crazy glue :o.
She spent 8 years studying in Germany for that?! Well, it worked, so I guess it was time well spent.

[Skierchickie]

That is good to know! Crazy Glue I can find. So the trick is in blowing on it at just the right temp? Maybe a hairdryer on low?

Now I just need to find out if the whole clearance thing/brake tweaking will work out. Thanks everyone!

Oh, and I'd love to try Campy someday, but it just isn't in the budget. There is always that lottery..... It is good to know there are better-fitting options out there.

[redrhodie]

That is good to know! Crazy Glue I can find. So the trick is in blowing on it at just the right temp? Maybe a hairdryer on low?


Yeah, she says it's the same glue as Crazy glue (cyanocrylat). She got hers in a model train store, but all super glues are basically the same. A hairdryer might be too hot. She just did it with her breath (just a couple of puffs, she wasn't there for like an hour or anything!), and it worked great. We let it dry overnight.

[Skierchickie]

I'm glad it only takes a couple of puffs - I get dizzy blowing up an air mattress.

[NbyNW]

All this talk about shims is fascinating -- the brake reach really is the one thing I would have changed on my long-lost little red bike.

Can you all post pictures of your shim setups? It would be very educational.

[alimey]

Another small hander here. I more or less solved my problem with a combination of bars (short reach & shallow drop - FSA wing pro compact - more comfy for me than the Ritchey Biomax). I also had a pair of short reach Ultegra levers. They came w/ 2 sets of shims - one narrow pair & one wide. So I installed the wide ones & they worked pretty well. Then I thought about it a bit & thought about installing both of them. I cut the locating nobble off the narrow pair & glued them onto the other pair. They seem to work pretty well.

But now that the new Dura Ace routes under the tape AND has reach adjustment I might have to try them out . . .