how short a stem is too short?

[lph]

I need to bring my bars closer, and it feels like 4-5 cm would be perfect. But I only have an 80 mm stem right now. How short a stem can I get without handling going all wacky? I guess 60 mm would be fine, but any shorter?

I have an itsy-bitsy tiny stem lying aroudn I should try, but I'm kind of scared of it... When I put it on my mtb last year I crashed spectacularly after clearing a small jump I've done hundreds of times, and I'm pretty sure it's because the ultra-short stem messed up my steering.

OTOH road bike handlebars already have a built in "stem" compared to flat bars, unless you ride with your hands on the top of the bars which I rarely do, so it might be just fine.

[madscot13]

which bike was this?

[lph]

I need to bring the handlebars closer on my road bike. My neck aches and I feel a bit too stretched out. I compensate by keeping my hands closer whenever I can, but then I can't keep my hands on the brakes.

[uforgot]

I just tried a stem that was 2cm shorter last night. I thought I wanted the bars closer, but I knew within minutes that it was too short. I kept scooting back on my seat. Perhaps you could switch it out, and take a short ride? Kind of a pain if you have a threaded quill stem, but in the long run, at least you will know! I have an unthreaded one so it only took minutes.

[madscot13]

lph, I'm thinking of doing the same thing. my stem is 90 mm right now and I was wondering if I should do 70 and a short reach handlebar or if that would be too much and 80 mm would be better...

[Andrea]

I used to ride with a 70mm on my first bike. I didn't have a problem with handling, although I did have to pay attention to what I was doing a little more because the steering was very "responsive" to twitches and whatnot

[Ana]

I had to have my stem shortened to make my fit better but my LBS said as a guideline, you should stay within 20mm of whatever your stock was... I switched from 85 to a 65 :) They also said that the handling might get a little more twitchy as the stem gets shorter, and cautioned me about the handling at higher speeds. I don't go that fast or far (no more than 18 mph or 30 miles) so I'm not too concerned. If I build up my strength, I might have to change my stem again or something but we'll see.

I haven't taken my bike out since the change so I've only been on the trainer but I'm so happy about my fit that I haven't really given it any thought :)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

My original bike came with a 9mm stem. Reach way too long. I changed it for a 5mm and rode that for months. That helped the reach, but my steering was noticably wobbly, especially when climbing hills. I was correcting my front wheel like all the time, which was extremely annoying and somewhat unsafe when climbing narrow hills in traffic.
So I changed again for a 7mm, and that seemed to be a good compromise.
Lots of people will say a 7 is too short. It 'is' too short, but it's a good place between too-long and too-short for me. The steering is no longer wobbly, and the reach is better than the old 9mm.

[HillSlugger]

My race bike has a 60cm stem with a 30 degree rise that effectively makes it even shorter. I don't have any problem with the handling on this bike, but it's the only stem I've used on it.

[madscot13]

we should set up recycling system for stems that don't seem to fit because everyone seems to switch them at least twice. it would be like the way Brook saddles seem to fly around the forum. imagine it, for the cost of shipping and some small price we could try out stems until we found one we liked instead of paying $40 each time. Even if it wasn't the prettiest stem we could replace it with one that was nicer and sent that one on its merry way.

think I'll have a 90mm quill stem finding a new home in a few months, just got to find the right size...

[HillSlugger]

I have a 100mm stem I can send out. Not sure of the angle off hand.

[lph]

a stem recycling program is a good idea :p

To answer my own question: so far it seems I'm fine with a really short stem. I put on the itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny one (it SAYS 60 mm on it but is also sharply angled so it looks and acts even shorter) and tried it out on a long (75 miles) ride yesterday. It didn't seem to make handling too wobbly, and did make it easier to reach stuff. My neck still started aching after a while, but since I started looking for a new saddle I've become acutely aware of what's wrong with the one I've got, and spent a large part of the ride obsessing about that instead... :rolleyes:

So I've got to get a new saddle before I start fussing around more with the bars, to make sure I know where I'm going to be sitting.

[HillSlugger]

a stem recycling program is a good idea :p

To answer my own question: so far it seems I'm fine with a really short stem. I put on the itsy-bitsy teeny-weeny one (it SAYS 60 mm on it but is also sharply angled so it looks and acts even shorter) and tried it out on a long (75 miles) ride yesterday. It didn't seem to make handling too wobbly, and did make it easier to reach stuff. My neck still started aching after a while, but since I started looking for a new saddle I've become acutely aware of what's wrong with the one I've got, and spent a large part of the ride obsessing about that instead... :rolleyes:

So I've got to get a new saddle before I start fussing around more with the bars, to make sure I know where I'm going to be sitting.

Sounds like my stem, 60mm and 30 degrees. The angle makes it act like it's another 5mm shorter.

Glad that you are making advances in your biking comfort. Try not to change too much at once.

[Grog]

So I've got to get a new saddle before I start fussing around more with the bars, to make sure I know where I'm going to be sitting.

If you were to decide to change the bars, check out the FSA Compact Wing Pro. They actually bring the reach back quite a bit without a shorter saddle, and I found that the real estate lost on the handlebars was not a problem... I think the Salsa Poco (or some other Salsa bar) is the same...

This can be messy though - have you sought some help from a good bike shop? I find that having a person look at me from the side often helps...

[Ana]

I researched stems for a while too, since my reach was way to far. I found one site that said if you need too short of a stem, perhaps your bike is mis-sized and you should have a shorter top tube :(

[lph]

The thought has struck me... But my road bike was a great buy (used), with decent components for a very nice price, and she's RED! :p Perfect starter bike for me. And I'm not in huge pain or anything, but I can feel that things could be better for long rides. So I'm not giving up on her for a while yet :)

[HillSlugger]

I researched stems for a while too, since my reach was way to far. I found one site that said if you need too short of a stem, perhaps your bike is mis-sized and you should have a shorter top tube :(

I think you are absolutely right. I had a professional fitting on my 51cm Specialized Sequoia and was considering buying a 52cm Specialized Allez frame. When I compared the top tubes, etc I saw that I'd be able to get the same reach by putting a 60mm step on the Allez. Maybe not ideal, but I got a good deal on the frame and it's working out ok.

[madscot13]

I'm in the same situation! Overly long top tube but overly short body. Well you might not be as petite as me but it amounts to the same thing. I'm going to do two things: get a shorter stem and a Salsa poco. I think I am only going to shorten the stem by 10-20 mm and the poco will shorten my reach by 20mm. Also I'm going to pick up bars that are closer to my shoulder width and I might gain back some reach that way as well. I considered byuing bars that were 30mm shorter but that would probably be too dramatic. If I need to in the future I will, but as we say in Crew small adjustments...

[HillSlugger]

I've got poco's on both bikes. I was never comfortable on the hood with the stock Sequoia bars.

[Ana]

After my first long ride on my 60mm stem (17 degree rise), I felt cramped :( and I still had the neck pain (phoey)

So, I went to my LBS and they swapped (for free! :D) it for a 70mm with 10 degree rise. I looooove it :) I took it around the block to "try it out" but I knew immediately that it was better :D

I'm excited for the chance to go on a longer ride :) This means that I'm within my 15mm limit from the stock stem. :p (which was 85mm, 17 degree rise).

Sweet! :D

[jennrod12]

Give it a try - some people are more sensitive to the handling changes than others, it probably depends on how you handle the bike. I've ridden a stock bike with as short as a 6mm stem and as long as an 11mm stem with no problem (yeah, took me a while to figure out my fit problems). If you have a bike fitter in your area he or she might be able to give you a better idea of what size to try so you don't wind up buying a boatload of stems.

Jenn

[Ana]

Maybe you could get an adjustable stem until you find the right angle/length :)

[VeloVT]

I am now curious as to exactly where the "80-120" rule came from. Cycling News has a running feature on pro bikes (in which they obsessively detail the componentry and measurements of a given pro's bike, as well as giving the rider's height and weight). A very large number of pro's seem to run stems between 120 -- 140... and not all of the 130s & 140s are being run by big guys on big frames either. Interesting...

[Ana]

My LBS told me to stay within a 2cm range from the stock stem because of the changing the position over the bottom bracket. They also said if the stem was too long or too short, the handling might get weird and that may mean you need another size top tube. Keep in mind that they know I am not a super dedicated racer. Maybe the professional riders have longer stems with shorter top tubes which adjusts the geometry of the bike for really fast racing :) Maybe you have to be more hard core to have a smaller bike and a longer stem? I really don't know :) I'm not a serious cyclist yet or a racer so my fit is rather average :) I'm still tweaking my fit :) I like to enjoy my ride...not too competitive :)

[madscot13]

I think racers are willing to bend more for an aerodynamic position that gets them down low, and that often requires a longer stem.

[VeloVT]

My LBS told me to stay within a 2cm range from the stock stem because of the changing the position over the bottom bracket. They also said if the stem was too long or too short, the handling might get weird and that may mean you need another size top tube. Keep in mind that they know I am not a super dedicated racer. Maybe the professional riders have longer stems with shorter top tubes which adjusts the geometry of the bike for really fast racing :) Maybe you have to be more hard core to have a smaller bike and a longer stem? I really don't know :) I'm not a serious cyclist yet or a racer so my fit is rather average :) I'm still tweaking my fit :) I like to enjoy my ride...not too competitive :)

First of all, I'm not challenging that everyone says your stem should be between 80-120 -- everyone says it. Any bike shop you go into, any online guide to fitting, you name it. And handling is usually cited as a main reason. But to clarify my question (hopefully):

--Position over the bottom bracket is much more affected by seat position/setback than stem length, although a too-long reach could cause you to scootch forward... but again, reach is a combination of stem & top tube length, so a 52 cm top tube and a 140mm stem gives the same reach as a 56 cm top tube and a 100mm stem -- so even though there's a 4cm difference in stem length, all other things equal, the position on the bike would be the same -- the longer stem by itself (assuming the reach is the same) would not cause problems regarding your positioning relative to the bottom bracket.
--But what I don't get is that it IS suggested that you purchase a frame in a size that permits you to acheive your proper reach with a stem between 80mm-120mm, because otherwise the handling will be "bad". But if the handling were really that sub-optimal with a longer stem, would we really see so many pro's on 140s?
--Getting back to your response, It's definitely true that the guys with super long stems ARE riding smaller frames (they're not riding with vastly longer reach). Certainly one reason why pros ride smaller frames with longer stems is because a smaller frame is going to be shorter (head tube closer to the ground), permitting (with a long seatpost) a more extreme position -- but even so, if the handling were really that bad I don't think we'd see those long stems... so???
--When I had my fitting on my new bike the fitter said he didn't love to put people with smaller frames at the larger end of the 80-120mm range, nor people with larger frames at the shorter end (I'm kinda heading towards one extreme, at least by this definition, on a bike with a 51.5cm tt and a 110 stem). I suppose this is partly just because it means you're at the edge of your range of adjustability, which isn't really an issue for pros, but it still seems like there's a sacrosanct rule that bike fitters don't want to put you on stems outside of "the range" -- but if the handling consequences were so awful, why would you see it so often in pro riders? (I should add, after perusing lots of Cycling News features, I haven't seen any stems on male pro bikes shorter than 90mm -- but lots over 120).

:confused::confused::confused:

[Ana]

Let's keep in mind that men tend to have longer torsos and shorter inseams by proportion compared to women. So maybe by comparison, their reach tends to be longer than women's. Plus, in general most women are smaller than men (although the average height for men is shrinking....the Europeans are getting taller and Americans are getting shorter....on average).

Also, sometimes I feel like those slimy business people will make anything someone might buy just to make a buck :( So even if it's not advisable (or practical), they will make the product as long as they have customers :P We see this all the time on infomercials :P

Ooo, maybe you could ask a fitter that question....or someone who is serious enough about cycling that they have that weird stem/top tube thingy going on :p :D

[OakLeaf]

Do the pros run shorter stems on their crit bikes than on the road race bikes?

Do they tend to body steer more than they countersteer with the handlebars?

Do pros who understand countersteering use their handlebars differently from us mere mortals, especially ones who have never raced bicycles or ridden motorcycles, who may be more inclined to turn the handlebars in the direction we want to go? Or who may be riding at speeds where countersteering isn't even effective?

[HillSlugger]

First of all, I'm not challenging that everyone says your stem should be between 80-120 -- everyone says it.

Just because it's said often doesn't make it true. I don't feel I have any steering issues on my bike with the 60mm stem. Having said that, I have to admit that so far I don't feel really stable on aerobars on this bike, but there are lots of other differences between my road bikes, particularly in the height difference between the seat and the bars on the race bike. I'm not sure how that figures in.

[VeloVT]

Let's keep in mind that men tend to have longer torsos and shorter inseams by proportion compared to women. So maybe by comparison, their reach tends to be longer than women's. Plus, in general most women are smaller than men (although the average height for men is shrinking....the Europeans are getting taller and Americans are getting shorter....on average).



The difference in relative body dimensions isn't what I'm getting at -- it's not really relevant to the question I'm asking. Pros have access to just about everything they could want (pro teams are how bike companies do R&D). They are not running super long stems because they can't get bikes that would fit them with a shorter stem -- for some reason they are electing to ride small bikes with long stems instead of medium bikes with medium stems (or whatever the equivalent of that equation is based on how tall they actually are).

Us ordinary mortals tend to be advised that longer stems will cause adverse changes in handling -- so we are advised to go medium frame/medium stem -- but since pro riders make their livelihood by riding bikes, I don't think they'd be electing to ride extreme tt/stem combos if, first, there weren't some significant benefit to doing so, and second, if there were adverse handling changes that were at all significant -- they are putting much higher handling demands on their bikes than most of us (high speed winding descents, etc), so I don't think they'd be likely to *settle* on that.

So what's the truth? That's what I want to know :eek:. It seems like we get a mixed message from the "conventional wisdom"...



Oakleaf: interesting questions...

[HillSlugger]

So what's the truth? That's what I want to know :eek:. It seems like we get a mixed message from the "conventional wisdom"...

Like I said, conventional wisdom is not always true or accurate.

[Ana]

--When I had my fitting on my new bike the fitter said he didn't love to put people with smaller frames at the larger end of the 80-120mm range, nor people with larger frames at the shorter end (I'm kinda heading towards one extreme, at least by this definition, on a bike with a 51.5cm tt and a 110 stem). I suppose this is partly just because it means you're at the edge of your range of adjustability, which isn't really an issue for pros, but it still seems like there's a sacrosanct rule that bike fitters don't want to put you on stems outside of "the range" -- but if the handling consequences were so awful, why would you see it so often in pro riders? (I should add, after perusing lots of Cycling News features, I haven't seen any stems on male pro bikes shorter than 90mm -- but lots over 120).

:confused::confused::confused:

Maybe it's one of those weird penis related things... :p ;) (i.e. part of those male things that I can't understand...). You know, the "mine is bigger than yours" thing....obviously I have no idea about the long stem thing but I just thought I'd throw that out there ;)