Why am I still in academia?

[Melalvai]

My boss informed us yesterday morning that he has accepted a position at the University of North Dakota. He offered me a raise to go with him.

I don't have anything against North Dakota. But I really don't want to move for yet another postdoc position. I always thought when we moved, it'd be for a tenure track faculty position. I don't think moving would benefit my husband and daughter.

I have a fellowship which covers 80% of my salary. If I can find someone, or find a way, to pay for my rats and the other 20% of my salary, we don't have to move. That is our first choice.

I am aware that I should be happy that at least I have a job offer--with a substantial raise--to fall back on. I should be grateful for that, but I don't feel particularly happy about the situation. It is all too typical. Even with my own funding a postdoc job is so ephemeral.

[Triskeliongirl]

Go speak with your department chair. Normally when faculty leave, a chair will do the best they can to accomodate his stuff, and if you have a fellowship you should be quite attractive. Also, go personally and speak with prospective advisors in commuting distance with research that appeals to you. Think about labs where even if you must change projects, things are related enough that they may fit into a job seminar. Again, don't underestimate how attractive you are with your own fellowship.

[Pax]

I have a friend going through the same thing right now, he's tired of being at the whim of his professor's research/job changes/etc.. He started his job search for a tenure track faculty position with his own lab (what he's been working towards his whole academic career) and has found the process so disheartening that he's moving away from academia into a private sector job. He works on brain chemistry stuff and the private sector will offer him a job that interests him ( AND pays him well) without him having to write all the grants to pay his salary.

[jobob]

I was in that situation oh, a gazillion years ago. :p

I ended up going into industry. But industry is no more secure than academia - in many respects, far less secure. But at least the pay & benefits are usually far better.

[alpinerabbit]

I decided beforehand to head for industry right away after my ph.d.

because lingering on in "the midfield", the limbo between grad school and tenure, makes it ever more difficult to get that foot inside the door of industry. It was difficult enough to find the job I really wanted (I have the entry-level position now, after 2 other jobs and 4-5 years); true, it is no more secure. My whole group got axed right after I resigned (*phew*) from my last job. You have to always have a sideways option.

I've seen people with 1,2,3 post docs, even with assistant professorships, nature papers and all ending up in a dead end. I did not want to go there.

[Geonz]

My brother also grew weary of the perpetual job limbo as a research biologist (PhD in biophysics/physiology) - and did not want to be in academia - so he went back and got a law degree and now does intellectual property work for a major pharmaceutical. Had a lot to do with having 3 kids.

[Melalvai]

Interesting that 4/5 people tell me about people who got sick of the same things I'm sick of and got out of academia.

For the current situation I'll try to find another position here, failing that at least I have a job in North Dakota, but as soon as I have the immediate future secured, or perhaps sooner, I'll be hitting the job market hard.

[OakLeaf]

Ah, law school, the last resort of scoundrels with a useless academic degree and no imagination about what to do next :rolleyes: - which is about all the personal experience I have with this topic. My sister's a tenured professor, I know she did one postdoc before taking the tenure track position, but I don't know the intimate details of her journey.

But it sounds like you're at one of those deep-breath places. Do you still love your research - or anything about your field? Do you have friends on the tenure track (maybe best if they're in other fields) who can tell you how it's been worth it for them?

[Geonz]

Welp... *I*, on the other hand am in academia and the grant funding half my position (non-renewable) dries up in October. WHile they have said several times "don't worry about positions -we're keeping them" ... that's not in writing *and* I can very easily imagine the "this is hard for us; we are keeping your position but half-time" (as in, no benefits) talk. Now, they like me.. but that doesn't always translate into dollar signs.
However, even if I'm wondering year to year if I"ll still be full-time, I like this job enough to hang on to it. (Not part-time no benefits... and they *know* lots of students and faculty would give birth to bovines if I disappeared.)

[Pax]

Welp... *I*, on the other hand am in academia and the grant funding half my position (non-renewable) dries up in October. WHile they have said several times "don't worry about positions -we're keeping them" ... that's not in writing *and* I can very easily imagine the "this is hard for us; we are keeping your position but half-time" (as in, no benefits) talk. Now, they like me.. but that doesn't always translate into dollar signs.
However, even if I'm wondering year to year if I"ll still be full-time, I like this job enough to hang on to it. (Not part-time no benefits... and they *know* lots of students and faculty would give birth to bovines if I disappeared.)
Hedge your bet and take a couple of tests at UI.

Pssst...I wrote the the study sheet for the Library Assistant test if you want to give it a go.

[Mr. Bloom]

Funny, just yesterday I was talking with someone about how great it would be to be in academia...:rolleyes:

Also, remember winters in the Dakotas really stink!

[Triskeliongirl]

Speaking as a tenured professor, its not so bad, but you must assume responsibility for your own career. Yeh, funding is tight right now. Labs move, such is life. But if you are creative and passionate about your science, and willing to work hard, things will work out.

[Triskeliongirl]

By things will work out, I mean just that. Finish your post-doctoral training, get into the job market, and see what happens. If something better turns up in industry than academia so be it. To me that is still success.

Did a post just disappear? I was responding to knot's comment and its gone now.

[OakLeaf]

Also, remember winters in the Dakotas really stink!

Ask me about my history of frostbite... no don't.

[madscot13]

err. a pay raise plus the low cost of living in ND= lot of money but you better enjoy what you are doing.

what is your research field?

[Mr. Bloom]

About 10 yrs ago, I was on a business trip in Minneapolis in FEBRUARY:eek:

I stayed at a hotel downtown with a great health club and had a couple of great workouts.


There was a woman from North Dakota on a treadmill going very slow.
She asked me, "what does the '1' mean?" :confused:
I said, "that's the number of calories you're burning":)
She said, "Great! I'm burning 1 calorie/minute?":D
"No", I replied, "that's 1 calorie/hour".:eek:

Then, she explained to me that she was overweigh because of North Dakota winters.

Mel, Bloomington on the other hand...:cool:...and your sister is here!

[Tweet]

Its funny to read this because I want to get my PhD. If and when I get it though I always planned on working in the industry and as adjunct faculty. I just love to teach. Do you still have to write your own grants in that kind of a position?

[Melalvai]

Tweet, no, get out while you can! Well, at least please stop after grad school and don't become a bitter disgruntled and cynical postdoc. That position is filled.

Mr. Silver, I can think of a lot of towns that beat the heck out of Grand Forks, ND. Lawrence, KS (where my folks are). Springfield, MO (where I did my undergrad). Bloomington, IN (where my sister is...for the moment, and the Silvers). Urbana-Champagne, IL--a lot of researchers in my field, well, in just about every field (and Geonz). Omaha, NE--where my main collaborator is, who I have yet to meet. You notice these are all small midwest college towns...there is a reason for that.

madscot13, I'm in breast cancer prevention. For the moment. Two years ago it was herbal alternatives to hormone replacement therapy. I did my graduate work in endocrine disruptors. I dabbled in neuro...hated that. It's all molecular and animal studies, although my soon-to-be-former boss is a clinician I shy away from clinical trials (besides I'm not an MD so would have to collaborate with one to run one.)

Oakleaf, tell me about your frostbite.

Queen, is your UI...indiana? illinois? idaho? iowa?

Latest update is, it looks promising that I'll have a place here, I talked to a prof today who can probably fund me and my rats. Nothing for sure yet. My boss is awfully disappointed that I don't want to go with him and thinks I am making a terrible mistake for my career. Everyone else I've talked to thinks I'd be stupid to go! Well, what would have been best for my career is if he weren't leaving, but he is, and so I have to make a tough choice.

5 years ago I chose to go to Chicago for my postdoc. We were absolutely miserable in Chicago. We had so many problems--no job for my husband. Terrible school in Evanston (the burb we lived in). Way way too far away from all our family and friends. And finally, my job at UIC turned sour when a senior lab member turned on me. We left unhappy and in debt after one year. We've hardly recovered financially and emotionally from that disaster. I am not about to make the same mistake again. I realize financially it is not the same, but there are too many potential similarities.

[Pax]

Queen, is your UI...indiana? illinois? idaho? iowa?


Illinois, I live in CU near Geonz.

[Melalvai]

I thought I'd put out an update on this situation.

My proposed new mentor can take me but doesn't have money for my rats. My current mentor said he would continue the rat project if I went with him to ND but will not pay for it if it is done here, even though he'd get a paper out of it. I got a more positive answer from the dept chair: on Thursday they will "tell me their plan". That doesn't sound like a "no" to me, though it is not quite a "yes" yet.

My salary funding (80% from my postdoc fellowship, needs 20% from the proposed mentor) hit a new, unexpected snag. I thought the biggest hurdle would be to get my current mentor to sign off on it, and I alerted the folks at the funding agency to his possible resistance. My new mentor found out though that he is expected to commit to 2 years, and until he knows the outcome of some pending grants he can not do that. I am scheduled to meet with him Friday morning and I hope to find out when he'll know about those grants.

One other possibility is that my own pending grant (a K99, for the NIH lingo-savvy) will come through...I find out about that ~May 19.

I'm pretty unhappy not only that my current mentor turned me down flat about the collaboration, but was completely unhelpful. He can't understand why I don't want to uproot my family to accompany him to ND, and is very angry about it. I'm heartbroken at his unreasonableness because I got along with him so well for the last 2 years, and all of this was completely unexpected.

Someone else commented that it's starting to sound like there's a hidden war going on and I was caught in the crossfire. Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like.

[Savra]

I'm in my first year of a PhD program for social work and quickly getting the impression that social work academia and life sciences academia are somewhat different. Of course, I may just be naive in this but I get the impression a lot of social work graduates go right on to associate professor positions once they finish their dissertations.

[mimitabby]

If this life is so bad why do both of my sons want to be PhD's???
(one in music, the other in math)

[Blueberry]

Shoot - I'm thinking of leaving a law career to get a PhD. Hmmm.....

[Aquila]

Before you leave a career to get a phud, make sure you look at a couple statistics for your field:

% of students who enter programs who actually finish
average time to degree

And this is the big one:

% of phds who get tenure track jobs within 3 years of finishing their phud. (In the sciences, it may be a bit longer, since many people in the sciences do post-docs.)

In my field, English, last I checked, it looked like this:

70% actually finish their degree
average time to degree is 8.4 years

And only 70% of people who finish get tenure track jobs within 3 years.

What's worse, some 1/3rd of people who get tenure TRACK jobs don't get tenure.

In some field, there's lots of work outside academia. In others, pretty much none.

(I'd love to convince Microsoft or Google that they need a resident Shakespeare person, but so far, no luck!)

Academics looks GREAT from the outside, but a bit less great from the inside. If you're lucky enough to be one of those who gets a decent job (as I am), you can really love your job. (It's still hard work, but if you love it, it's good work, too.)

[farrellcollie]

I mostly quit practicing law to teach legal research and writing (the least favorite subject in law school). I am not tenure track so there is not that pressure or stability. I still handle some appeals and probate matters as a court appointed atty.
I really enjoy it for the most part. The money is not great but I don't have a lot of needs (no kids, no real debt etc). I was really surprised to see how the attitude of students changed in the 20+ years since I graduated - that was an eye opener.

[Bad JuJu]

If this life is so bad why do both of my sons want to be PhD's???
(one in music, the other in math)
As Aquila's post demonstrates, a lot has to do with the field and what career opportunities it offers. But there's also the question of what you want to do with that degree (teaching, research, etc.)

My field is English, too. I'm ABD and probably always will be because, at the tender age of 55, my priorities have changed since I did my grad coursework (and, this is my second career). At some schools, there are still some full-time instructor positions that don't carry the research/publication requirements that come with tenure-track jobs. That's what I've got. These jobs can be less than stable, but I've got a little more stability than some, since I'm directing the freshman writing program--and nobody else on my campus wants to do that.:cool:

Aquila is right about another thing--it can be hard, hard work, but not a semester goes by when I don't realize that I LOVE THIS JOB.

[Beane]

anyone currently in grad school who needs moral support -or- anyone considering grad school and wants a realistic idea of what it's like should read phd comics:
www.phdcomics.com (http://www.phdcomics.com)

...and now i'm going to procrastinate working on a fellowship application by reading bike snob and TE posts :-)

[Melalvai]

anyone currently in grad school who needs moral support -or- anyone considering grad school and wants a realistic idea of what it's like should read phd comics:
www.phdcomics.com (http://www.phdcomics.com)

...and now i'm going to procrastinate working on a fellowship application by reading bike snob and TE posts :-)
I heard that Jorge Cham was astounded and amused because people told him that his comics actually inspired them to GO to grad school. Hello?? He's realistically depicting grad school as living hell. This is inspiring?

I am glad to see he's added a postdoc to the cast (Mike Slackernerny's new job). I was afraid postdoc life was too depressing to make fun of.

I find it interested that Micella de Whyse (blogger on Sciencecareers.org) is leaving her first postdoc and academia right now.

[Geonz]

Its funny to read this because I want to get my PhD. If and when I get it though I always planned on working in the industry and as adjunct faculty. I just love to teach. Do you still have to write your own grants in that kind of a position?

Um... if you love to teach... it can be hard to find a U where that's at all valued.

(Trying not to let my community college biases get too obvious here ;) )

I also recall Herr McNabb, in my freshman year, who did *not* like it when people slipped and called him Dr. McNabb. Mr. was fine - but he considered it an honor to have gotten a teaching position without a PhD.

[Melalvai]

I had a difficult meeting with my boss today. To recap:
When I told him I was not going to North Dakota with him, he all but threatened to sabatoge my career. I believe he got carried away and went further than he intended with what he was saying, but I wasn't sure exactly what he meant.

When I asked to continue the current study, he flat out said "I will not give any money to MU after I leave". Which meant the research program I had worked so hard to develop and which I intended to use as the basis of job applications for the future was dead.

I thought that was the end, but another prof suggested I talk to the dept. I didn't tell my boss I was doing that because I wasn't sure if his refusal was a stab at my career, a stab at MU, or some other reason. If the dept was a potential source of bridge funding, why hadn't my boss suggested it? Why the flat-out refusal and no effort to work with me to find another solution?

Today I got an initial favorable response from the dept, followed up with instructions to talk to my boss. I thought it was likely he would be angry that I'd gone behind his back. I was angry too. It was a difficult meeting, I like to say an animated discussion (a bit of an understatement), but we cleared the air. He was upset and believed I had acted unprofessionally although he was willing to consider that perhaps I was in survival mode. I had a whole lot of accusations about his behavior which I flung right back at him and...

amazingly, he apologized. He explained why it wasn't possible for him to fund my rats even if he wanted to, and that he didn't make an effort to find another solution because he didn't think it through.

[r900]

Oh, what's wrong with North Dakota? It's not as bad as you may think.:-) We have a dandy bike tour called Candisc that is a weeklong ,450 mile tour of the west/central part of the state. Why be so close-minded? Would it hurt to check it out for a couple of days?

[Melalvai]

Oh, what's wrong with North Dakota? It's not as bad as you may think.:-) We have a dandy bike tour called Candisc that is a weeklong ,450 mile tour of the west/central part of the state. Why be so close-minded? Would it hurt to check it out for a couple of days?
Nothing is wrong with ND, and in fact Grand Forks is the type of place I want to live in. (Midwest college town. No big cities or coastal cities for us.) What is wrong is uprooting my family for yet another postdoc position. I won't do it no matter where the postdoc position is or even how much it pays.

[Pax]

I was telling my friend about your predicament and he was royally pissed for you...he said he's seen that sort of thing happen more than one and feels your pain. Since he decided to bail on academia a couple of months ago he's gotten offers from two big pharm companies...he said he can't figure out why he waited so long to get the hell out of academia!

[Melalvai]

I kind of hate to keep bumping this thread up and whining about my pathetic situation but...well, if you get tired of it you can do what I do and ignore that thread. I want this space to vent and bemoan my fate, or get encouragement, or some such nonsense.

Yesterday I thought I was choosing between two jobs. I'd found someone who said he could pay the 20% of my salary that is not covered by my fellowship, and who was willing to take me into his lab. Or, I could go to North Dakota with my boss.

This morning I had a meeting with Prospective Mentor who said "Oops, I was wrong, I don't have the money to cover you. Sorry. If I get this grant at the end of May I can do it. Talk to other people, see if you can find someone else."

Freaking out, even though I knew it was hopeless, I talked to the folks he suggested. They confirmed what I knew: no one has that kind of grant money at loose ends.

Then this evening I learned that my Current Boss actually offered the North Dakota job to someone else. I put aside my anger for how he has treated me over the past two weeks, and whatever induced him to offer my job to someone else, and showed up in his office and said "You are still my mentor, and I just found out this morning that the other guy doesn't have money, and now I just found out you offered my job to someone else. What am I supposed to do now???"

His answer: maybe something will work out. It's not entirely hopeless--I can always take a substantial pay cut so that the fellowship will cover my entire salary. Sure, I'll be making less than some graduate students. My salary will be lower than it ever has been in my graduate career. But I'll have a paycheck. Of sorts.

I said "Maybe I should look for a teaching job" and he said "Let's hope it doesn't come to that."

I don't care about the career, or research, any more. I'd love a teaching job. For one thing, it would bring a paycheck. I suppose if it comes to it, I'll take the pay cut and keep the fellowship, for a little while. In the meantime I'll be chasing those "mere" teaching jobs with all my might.

[kat_h]

Don't feel bad about venting here. I've been following this thread and want to keep hearing the updates. I'd really like it better if there was good news, but I'm sure you would too. :)

Do you read PHDcomics.com? Sometimes it's nice to know you're not alone. http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1012

I really hope this works out for you soon. I'm a solid believer in the idea that when everything seems to go wrong it means there's another opportunity waiting to be found. Hopefully that opportunity shows up soon for you.

[Geonz]

I kind of hate to keep bumping this thread up and whining about my pathetic situation but...well, if you get tired of it you can do what I do and ignore that thread. I want this space to vent and bemoan my fate, or get encouragement, or some such nonsense.

Yesterday I thought I was choosing between two jobs. I'd found someone who said he could pay the 20% of my salary that is not covered by my fellowship, and who was willing to take me into his lab. Or, I could go to North Dakota with my boss.

This morning I had a meeting with Prospective Mentor who said "Oops, I was wrong, I don't have the money to cover you. Sorry. If I get this grant at the end of May I can do it. Talk to other people, see if you can find someone else."

Freaking out, even though I knew it was hopeless, I talked to the folks he suggested. They confirmed what I knew: no one has that kind of grant money at loose ends.

Then this evening I learned that my Current Boss actually offered the North Dakota job to someone else. I put aside my anger for how he has treated me over the past two weeks, and whatever induced him to offer my job to someone else, and showed up in his office and said "You are still my mentor, and I just found out this morning that the other guy doesn't have money, and now I just found out you offered my job to someone else. What am I supposed to do now???"

His answer: maybe something will work out. It's not entirely hopeless--I can always take a substantial pay cut so that the fellowship will cover my entire salary. Sure, I'll be making less than some graduate students. My salary will be lower than it ever has been in my graduate career. But I'll have a paycheck. Of sorts.

I said "Maybe I should look for a teaching job" and he said "Let's hope it doesn't come to that."

I don't care about the career, or research, any more. I'd love a teaching job. For one thing, it would bring a paycheck. I suppose if it comes to it, I'll take the pay cut and keep the fellowship, for a little while. In the meantime I'll be chasing those "mere" teaching jobs with all my might.


this is your future. And this stuff SUCKS. Gag. "Let's hope it doesn't come to that." What a bunch of blivit-faces. It's rotten when the worst plays out... but ... at least now you know what a bunch of people with very different values than yours they are.

I'll have my house back Thrusday it seems - come on by :-)

[Beane]

Don't feel bad about venting here. I've been following this thread and want to keep hearing the updates. I'd really like it better if there was good news, but I'm sure you would too. :)

Do you read PHDcomics.com? Sometimes it's nice to know you're not alone. http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1012

I really hope this works out for you soon. I'm a solid believer in the idea that when everything seems to go wrong it means there's another opportunity waiting to be found. Hopefully that opportunity shows up soon for you.

I agree with Kat, PHD comics are great for distraction and entertainment :-)

Hang in there, whatever happens, you'll make the best of it, use it for what it's worth, and move on.

[Melalvai]

Thank you everyone, you are bringing tears to my eyes. Of course right now it seems I cry at the drop of a hat so I don't know what that is worth.

Boy, reading about FatCyclist's wife really got me going. I felt so sad that I'm being driven out of breast cancer research. It's such a shame that I can't focus on figuring out how to prevent breast cancer because I have to focus on finding a job.

I really wanted to apply for a Livestrong grant a couple months ago. But Livestrong funds cancer treatment research, not cancer prevention.

[mimitabby]

I really wanted to apply for a Livestrong grant a couple months ago. But Livestrong funds cancer treatment research, not cancer prevention.

You ought to write to Lance about that, and i'm not kidding!

[Tuckervill]

I'm in the "something better is just around the corner" camp. Keep plugging away You're a resourceful person and you will make it work. I'm sending vibes to that effect!

Karen

[PrincessAna]

I said "Maybe I should look for a teaching job" and he said "Let's hope it doesn't come to that."

I don't care about the career, or research, any more. I'd love a teaching job. For one thing, it would bring a paycheck. I suppose if it comes to it, I'll take the pay cut and keep the fellowship, for a little while. In the meantime I'll be chasing those "mere" teaching jobs with all my might.

I went to graduate school with the intention of becoming a teacher, not a researcher. And I was put down for that goal time and time again in my department. I did what I wanted to anyways, and I'm totally happy with my decision. I love teaching. I work at a small liberal arts university. Teach 12 hours a semester (the load's a little tough at times), and do some research here and there to keep my self fresh, and bring new light to my courses.

If you want to be a researcher, then by all means work towards that goal. If you think you'd enjoy teaching for a while, then don't let anyone's comments stop you. One thing to remember: it's not a life sentence. You can always teach for a while and get back into research later. Or try to find a happy medium, a job at a more research oriented institution where you teach 3-6 hours a semester and spend the rest of your time doing research.

Either way, I hope you find something that works for you!
Anastasia :)

[Melalvai]

Ok, I finally have a happier update to report.
After finding out Tuesday that the funding to stay here would fall short, a lot of people started telling me "Go to North Dakota". That same day though, I learned the North Dakota job had been offered to someone else. (That was the last update.)

I had a long talk with my old PhD advisor yesterday. We talked about the possibility of taking a huge pay cut ($750/mth) which would allow me to stay here and how my family wouldn't have to move to a little crappy house in the bad school attendance area, we could take out more student loans. (The kind that accrue high interest the whole time you're in school.)

He pointed out that taking the pay cut doesn't mean I'll keep the pay cut. There are a lot of grants pending for a lot of people, and a number of other ways to make up the lost income.

Most important, he said I absolutely made the right decision to stay here until my husband finishes his degree. He's happy and successful in the college he is at, he had such a rough time at his first college attempt that it is even more important to keep this attempt a success.

I also called the Komen foundation that my postdoc fellowship is from, and they said I can take a pay cut if I want to, they don't care.

I guess not a lot has changed, but I feel like we've come to a final decision that I can live happily with. There are still a lot of things that can go wrong, but my stomach has stopped churning and I slept through 3:00 a.m. last night.

[Dogmama]

I just retired from academia after 30 years. I cannot fathom a more cutthroat business. The politics are unreal.

The worst part is - nobody wants to teach, nor are they rewarded for good teaching. To get tenure, it's about research dollars. I had a post doc who had to get GRANTS TO TEACH!! He got sideways with a couple of professors and was being blackballed. Didn't matter that his students LOVED HIM, he taught an amazing class load (including internet classes) and he loved teaching. No research = no tenure. We hired adjuncts to teach most undergrad classes. What a waste of money. Tenured professors teach an undergrad class? Surely you jest!!!

And we thought Universities were for educating our young adults????

Sorry, I just feel very strongly about this. When I hear about budget cuts and the University's whining, I just cannot get on board. If they made their faculty WORK for a living, quit hiring adjuncts, maybe the bottom line would be better. Instead, the staff continue to get cut & the best ones leave. I only stayed because I had golden handcuffs - just a few years to full retirement.

Most public University budgets run on grants, not state funds. When you're owned by an outside entity, you'll dance to their tune.

[Pax]

Fascinating article. (http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i34/34b01701.htm)

[Melalvai]

The world of granting is strange, mysterious, and confusing. I believe it involves magic.

My postdoc fellowship requires that me and my sponsor/mentor are at the same institution. Since my mentor is leaving MU and I am staying, we need to file Change of Mentor paperwork. This includes a letter from my old mentor relinquishing the project/fellowship.

My old boss verbally told me he would write such a letter after I completed certain tasks I'd agreed to. Everyone I've talked to thinks this was not a nice thing to do. I submitted the requested data, analysis and manuscript (3 separate projects) to him on Friday. He would not sign the letter on Friday, the implication being he had to assess if I'd done a good enough job. I asked if he could let me know by next Friday. He could not. I asked when he could let me know by. He couldn't tell me that either.

At that point I got very scared, finally starting to believe that it is possible he may not sign the letter. Yesterday I called the granting foundation and asked what my options are should he refuse to sign the letter (they'll get back to me). I was just worried sick. I started putting in job applications--we don't want to move until my husband graduates, but if I have no job here we would have to move. I considered talking to a lawyer. Refusing to sign the letter is not illegal, but my sister who is in law school said This-is-not-legal-advice employment law isn't usually about what's legal, but what's ethical.

Today I spoke to a Dean in the Grad School (who is in charge of Postdoc matters). She pointed out that the award is made to the institution, not to me and not to my boss. When he is no longer an employee, the institution could sign for him.

That is a huge relief. There is still the matter of 20% of my salary or taking a pay cut, but I feel more certain of the 80% that is funded through this fellowship.

This sort of "relief" always makes me want to say:
If you are considering a career in academic research, RUN AWAY NOW!

[Dogmama]

He would not sign the letter on Friday, the implication being he had to assess if I'd done a good enough job. I asked if he could let me know by next Friday. He could not. I asked when he could let me know by. He couldn't tell me that either.



It is time for you to release the flying monkeys.

[Melalvai]

It is time for you to release the flying monkeys.
Ha ha! No doubt.
I talked to someone today who is peripherally involved in all this and he is going to talk to some people about some of these things. He assured me that my boss will sign the letter. At the end of the meeting he said "Don't worry about the money, focus on your research."

[Geonz]

Karma Slap Time.

Don't worry, eh? Welp, if that's possible, *don't*. It really is out of your control. HOly cow. Do whatever you can to keep some kind of psychic and physical equilibrium... like ride :) ... and remember you can always move to ILlinois - I have my house back!

[uforgot]

I've been following this thread from the beginning and I just want to weigh in with something. I don't think that people understand what kind of a town/school you may be moving from. Columbia is a terrific town to raise a family, and it consistently ranks high in national surveys as a good place to raise a family. I understand the fight to stay there. It would really be much better for your family to stay in Columbia as towns like that are few and far between!

Teaching - I guess I didn't know it had such a bad reputation. I kind of fell into it when I graduated from college and it turns out I wouldn't do anything else. I absolutely love it. Go with your gut. If things don't work out, why not? You are really going through the wringer here with all of this back and forth, handoff, I don't know stuff. It's been too long for you on this, and I'm just amazed at how insensitive everyone involved in this seems to be.

Keep us posted, and dump any time ya want!

[Melalvai]

Nothing new to report. I'm just confused about my reactions.
I was so relieved Monday when I found out that I am not at the mercy of my boss's whim, that I have some protection and that I'm not going to lose my fellowship. I thought my stomach problems, sleeplessness, overall stress would go away.

Partly it did, I was able to focus on experiments and get some actual work done. But my stomach is still plaguing me. Instead of sleepless, I'm sleeping a LOT, 10+ hours a couple nights this week. I'm depressed, anxious, nervous, neurotic, irritable...(my poor husband!) Still liable to burst into tears at little or no provocation.

I'm very disappointed. I want the stress reaction to be over, I want my life to return to "normal" (normal is only a cycle on the dishwasher). I suppose it'll take time. Or maybe once we actually get that letter, whether it comes from my boss or not.

[uforgot]

I was thinking of you yesterday. I was in Columbia and wondering how you were doing. Keep the updates coming. I hope this will be resolved soon! As the daughter of a breast cancer victim, I also want to thank you for your dedication!

[Melalvai]

It's time for another update, though I don't really have any news. My paper is inching ever so slowly to submission (that is, being submitted to a journal, not becoming submissive), which was my boss' final requirement for that letter I need so sorely.

The old lab is being packed up and sent north. Concerned that my supplies would get shipped with everything else, I contacted the prospective new boss and asked if I could have a little storage space. He promptly contacted my current boss who responded to me with "You must make a list, and you can't have anything that's not on that list!"

The request for a list of what I'm taking it reasonable. It is NOT reasonable to tack that on as yet another requirement for that bloody letter. This is entirely what I expected though. I would not be at all surprised if this is how he treats me through the entire month of June--"You've done A, B, and C as I requested, but now you have to do D, E, and F as well." And so on. Until I'm on P, Q and R and suddenly he's out of time.

Second, his tone was extremely offensive. He stopped just short of accusing me of plotting to steal his stuff. As if I'd want it. Most of his stuff is old and junk, we use equipment in other labs as much as we can. But his attitude makes me WANT to steal from him, just because I know I could get away with it (list or no list). This stupid list doesn't protect him or me. It's just a power ploy. A pathetic attempt to make me believe he controls anything about my future.

If I'm coming off a bit bitter and angry here, well, I am. I hope there will be slightly less stressful days ahead, if not contented or dare I say happier. He can't leave fast enough to suit me for sure.

If I were an optimistic soul, I might think the promised letter would materialize by the end of next week. Being a pessimistic cynical realist, I don't anticipate ever getting the letter from him.

[Warning: RANT!]
In a month's time no doubt I'll be crammed into yet another tiny overcrowded office that is chronically extremely hot and/or extremely cold, trying to get my work done with old malfunctioning equipment that no one knows how to use, starting new projects that are a ridiculous waste of time and taxpayer dollars and will bring us no closer to eradicating breast cancer but might further someone's career (not mine) ever so slightly. I'll be biting my tongue whenever my new boss opens his mouth because he'll make all kinds of grand promises--or any promises at all--which I won't believe. I wonder if it is worth it to put up with this so my husband can finish his degree. I so badly want to get out NOW, get a job teaching or in industry or in science writing, anything with a bit of stability and a bit less expensive nonsense. Heck, I'd take the expensive nonsense of some of the expense filtered its way into my own bank account.

[wannaduacentury]

It's time for another update, though I don't really have any news. My paper is inching ever so slowly to submission (that is, being submitted to a journal, not becoming submissive), which was my boss' final requirement for that letter I need so sorely.

The old lab is being packed up and sent north. Concerned that my supplies would get shipped with everything else, I contacted the prospective new boss and asked if I could have a little storage space. He promptly contacted my current boss who responded to me with "You must make a list, and you can't have anything that's not on that list!"

The request for a list of what I'm taking it reasonable. It is NOT reasonable to tack that on as yet another requirement for that bloody letter. This is entirely what I expected though. I would not be at all surprised if this is how he treats me through the entire month of June--"You've done A, B, and C as I requested, but now you have to do D, E, and F as well." And so on. Until I'm on P, Q and R and suddenly he's out of time.

Second, his tone was extremely offensive. He stopped just short of accusing me of plotting to steal his stuff. As if I'd want it. Most of his stuff is old and junk, we use equipment in other labs as much as we can. But his attitude makes me WANT to steal from him, just because I know I could get away with it (list or no list). This stupid list doesn't protect him or me. It's just a power ploy. A pathetic attempt to make me believe he controls anything about my future.

If I'm coming off a bit bitter and angry here, well, I am. I hope there will be slightly less stressful days ahead, if not contented or dare I say happier. He can't leave fast enough to suit me for sure.

If I were an optimistic soul, I might think the promised letter would materialize by the end of next week. Being a pessimistic cynical realist, I don't anticipate ever getting the letter from him.

[Warning: RANT!]
In a month's time no doubt I'll be crammed into yet another tiny overcrowded office that is chronically extremely hot and/or extremely cold, trying to get my work done with old malfunctioning equipment that no one knows how to use, starting new projects that are a ridiculous waste of time and taxpayer dollars and will bring us no closer to eradicating breast cancer but might further someone's career (not mine) ever so slightly. I'll be biting my tongue whenever my new boss opens his mouth because he'll make all kinds of grand promises--or any promises at all--which I won't believe. I wonder if it is worth it to put up with this so my husband can finish his degree. I so badly want to get out NOW, get a job teaching or in industry or in science writing, anything with a bit of stability and a bit less expensive nonsense. Heck, I'd take the expensive nonsense of some of the expense filtered its way into my own bank account.

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. I've been following your story too, on and off. Sounds like your old boss is a mentor gone bad. Be glad you're not working for him anymore, get what necessary paperwork you can, and cut your losses. If you think you might want to teach or do something different for awhile, do it. Let your dh continue finishing his degree. Nothing is worth that much stress. ph.d. or not. When one door closes, another always opens. Have your resume' ready and always be ready to make a move. I hope everything works out for you. Best Wishes. Jennifer

[Dogmama]

The whole thing stinks. I don't suppose the department head would intervene on your behalf?

I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. I know how powerless it feels to deal with academia, tenure and a thousand hoops.

A side note - it's interesting that he is taking his equipment. Unless written otherwise, equipment purchased through a grant (I'm assuming that is how it was purchased) (1) stays with the originating institution or (2) is returned to the grantee. Lots of paperwork, including current value assessments, are usually generated, ad nauseum. It would be interesting to see if that is actually in place.....(trails off, whistling in the distance...)

Unless, of course, his equipment is trash, in which case the originating University is usually glad that it doesn't have to deal with disposal of same.

Hmmmm....

[Triskeliongirl]

I thought you told us that the Institution has to sign the letter, not your former boss. Remember the grant that pays your salary was issued to your institution, not your mentor, so the administrator in your grants managment office should sign the letter. The letter is just to request a change of mentor, correct?

It is typical for equipment to transfer with a PI, as long as the research grant that paid for it is also transferring institutions (at least in the biomedical sciences). The paperwork isn't complicated, its part of the paperwork for transferring a grant, which the PIs new institution gladly will prepare.

I think you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself. PIs move, he offered you a job, you didn't want it, so you need to live with your choices.

[Possegal]

I remember when I finished my PhD, much the worse for the wear. My brother who is a viet nam vet told the family I was the only one that could understand what he'd been through, as I too had just come home from war. :) Kidding of course, but seriously, it felt like hell. When I called my mother after my defense to tell her that yes, I was dr. (insert last name) she congratulated me and then said the best line "I'm going to go call your brothers and sisters and tell them, then I'm going to bed because these have been the longest 5 yrs of my life". I cracked up! I spent many many hours on the phone crying to my mother about quitting, calling her at 5AM as she was waking up, calling at lunch at work. When she passed about 7 years later, her coworkers came up to me at the funeral home and said "we feel like we went through graduate school with you". I said "I put my mother through hell those years". Now, you would think all things considered, they would have said "oh no you didn't". But the one looked at me with this rather sad smile and said "Yeah you did, but she sure was proud of you". And that still makes me cry.

Now, back on track, I do really feel your pain. I had hoped to go into acedemia but it just didn't work out that way for me. I ended up as a government scientist and I'm not sorry for the choices I made, it worked out for me quite well. I was lucky enough to have my phd advisor be like a second dad to me and though I've encountered some pieces of work in my career, none seem to compare to your soon to be former boss. I'm sorry that you are going through all of this, after all you have done to get where you are already!

[Dogmama]

I thought you told us that the Institution has to sign the letter, not your former boss. Remember the grant that pays your salary was issued to your institution, not your mentor, so the administrator in your grants managment office should sign the letter. The letter is just to request a change of mentor, correct?

It is typical for equipment to transfer with a PI, as long as the research grant that paid for it is also transferring institutions (at least in the biomedical sciences). The paperwork isn't complicated, its part of the paperwork for transferring a grant, which the PIs new institution gladly will prepare.

I think you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself. PIs move, he offered you a job, you didn't want it, so you need to live with your choices.

Who can issue a change of mentorship and how equipment transfers depends on the wording of the grant. I've seen it lots of different ways. Maybe you need to really scrutinize the contract. Contacting your grants management office is a great idea. Could save you lots of time & trouble.

[Duck on Wheels]

Why is anybody still in Academe? I guess because, when things run well, it's a great place to be. We get paid to pursue our curiosity, and to enthuse over our interests to students who more or less share them. And the pay's even pretty good once you get established. So it can be a good place to work. But the notion that academics are somehow more civilized than ordinary humans is counterproductive. We're as varied as any other branch of humanity in that regard (in fact, the status and autonomy may attract more than our fair share of sociopaths, but I doubt there's a reliable statistic on that). Anyhooo, the notion is counterproductive because, in part due to that presumed civilizing effect of education, we have a high degree of autonomy and weak administrations. In a crisis, that can be catastrophic.

Today I was involved in solving just such a crisis-turning-into-catastrophe. Two professors in neighboring departments here had, for some reason unknown to me, decided to dump their shared PhD fellow from the program. They may have other reasons, but the ones they've officially offered do not hold water. The student came to me since I was teaching one of her classes (Philosophy of Science for the Social Sciences). Luckily, she did well on her term paper for my class, so I was able to argue her case upward through the hierarchy, using my authority as instructor to defend her against her supervisors' claims that she wasn't competent to complete the degree. Without that "second opinion", the administration would never have dared to oppose her supervisors' assessment. Today the dean seems to have landed on a fair solution. If her head of department agrees, she'll be allowed to change supervisors. Whew! She and I and a sympathetic professor from her department all went out into the sunshine and ate ice cream bars to celebrate. :p I'm glad things sometimes get set right! I hope your case lands right side up as well!

Now back to grading exams (one of the more boring aspects of Academe :o).

[Melalvai]

A side note - it's interesting that he is taking his equipment. Unless written otherwise, equipment purchased through a grant (I'm assuming that is how it was purchased) (1) stays with the originating institution or (2) is returned to the grantee. Lots of paperwork, including current value assessments, are usually generated, ad nauseum. It would be interesting to see if that is actually in place.....(trails off, whistling in the distance...)
He came from another university 5 years ago (5 yrs and 1 day to be precise...that is when he'll be vested with this uni and the next day he starts at ND). Some of his equip was purchased on grants that are moving with him, some was brought with him at the time, etc. I'm sure the dept didn't purchase anything of his so that is not moving with him.

[Melalvai]

I thought you told us that the Institution has to sign the letter, not your former boss.
They will write the letter if he doesn't. It is far preferable to get the letter from him if possible. That means I have to jump through the hoops he's designated. If he still doesn't sign the letter after I've done my part, by July 2, then the university will sign it. Refusing to do my part is tantamount to burning a bridge. The bridge may get burned in the end but it won't be by me.

I think you need to stop feeling sorry for yourself. PIs move, he offered you a job, you didn't want it, so you need to live with your choices.
Well, I can live with my choice, but it seems he can't live with my choice. Since he is continuing to harrass me with his "conditions" for this stupid letter. I'm not feeling sorry for myself. I'm really angry at him. And pretty pessimistic about the future which will likely contain more people just like him.

If it gets bad enough during the next 2 years, my husband will delay or give up his degree so I can start a new job somewhere else.

[Tuckervill]

Now, you would think all things considered, they would have said "oh no you didn't". But the one looked at me with this rather sad smile and said "Yeah you did, but she sure was proud of you". And that still makes me cry.

Having adult children myself who I have been through hell (and an actual war) with as well, I can assure you that your mother would not have changed a thing. ::hugs::

Karen

[Possegal]

Thank you for that Karen. I should clarify that it makes me cry in a good way. It was an ongoing joke with my mother of how she felt she had been to hell and back but that now, in her words i could keep her in the lifestyle to which she was accustomed. My mother was not one to verbalize her feelings, so "i'm proud of you" was something i always felt, but never heard. no complaints, it is who she was. But to hear her friends say it, was very comforting.

[Triskeliongirl]

Well, it does seem like he is making this more difficult than it has to be, although you know getting your work published is win win for both of you, so the conditions don't seem too unreasonable to me.

Maybe I am less sympathetic because I have been in his shoes, however I have to tell you I treated my people much better when I changed institutions. I had one student that needed another year to finish, but didn't want to relocate since her husband was also in school. I found a colleague willing to house her in his lab (who happened to be her husband's advisor), and I continued to advise her, but at a distance. The dept. agreed to move the university purchased equipment that was staying behind to his lab for her to use. I then 'loaned' her unique equipment she needed that was officially transferring to my new institution, with the understanding she would ship it to me when her work was finishhed. While I transferred my NIH grant, I arranged to leave enough money behind to pay for her stipend and supplies. All of this was carefully drawn up in agreements between my new and old institution. In fact, the old institution made it hard, because since we set up her support as a sub-contract, but then they wanted me to pay them overhead on it, which meant double overhead which I couldn't afford. So, my old dept. chair had to negotiate that part down. I flew back for the defense, she still graduated as 'my student' and it was win win for everyone.

But my advice to you is still to stop being angry, cuz anger doesn't get you anything. Do what you have to do to get your work done, and then think hard about what you need to do to move on to a more independent position which will carry more autonomy and less vulnerability. By channeling your anger, energy, what have you, into productive endeavors like doing good science, publishing your work, and building a strong CV, you put yourself in the strongest possible position. This is how I have always operated my career. I have had my share of A-holes, as has my husband, but by focusing always on our scientific productivity, doing significant work and publishing in top journals, we have been able to have very successful and satisfying careers in academic science.

[Melalvai]

Well, it does seem like he is making this more difficult than it has to be, although you know getting your work published is win win for both of you, so the conditions don't seem too unreasonable to me.
Exactly, I need that paper way more than he does, so why does he have to say "I won't sign the letter until your paper is submitted"? He'll get that paper because I have to have it. Linking in to the letter made me tempted to submit it without giving the other authors adequate time to review it.

While I transferred my NIH grant, I arranged to leave enough money behind to pay for her stipend and supplies. All of this was carefully drawn up in agreements between my new and old institution.
That is something in fact which he adamantly refused, I don't need much money (relative to how much he has in grants, which is a number I am familiar with), and it would have made things lots smoother for me.

But my advice to you is still to stop being angry, cuz anger doesn't get you anything.
Well, this is my place to vent. I'm not mouthing off everywhere. There are many, many responses to his pettiness that I'm not giving into because I'm above that. I don't care about burning bridges or whatever, cause I think it's hopeless.

I wish I could just stop being angry at will. Eventually he'll be out of my life and I'll forget about it. It's been a rough 6 weeks, and I've got another 3 to go.

[Triskeliongirl]

My husband and I both had to deal with situations with horrible supervisors at points in our careers. I guess I just want to communicate that while you can't help but feel angry, try to channel that anger towards doing the things you need to do to become more independent and less vulnerable. And its not just science, or academia. There are A-holes everywhere. What's important is becoming less vulnerable to petty power. To do that, you need to have such a strong CV that you can call the shots. Then you can walk into whatever job you want, whether its in academia, industry, gov, etc.

Good luck. Sorry if I am seem harsh, I understand you need a place to vent, but I also know that to be strong you need to feel strong, so that is why I have been trying to stop the pity party and encourage you to channel the anger towards something more productive.

[Melalvai]

I GOT MY LETTER TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But since I wouldn't be me if I didn't gripe a little...
Wednesday afternoon I was in the office for a few minutes after the teaching workshop, he happened to call from North Dakota, and asked me to leave the unsigned letter in his office. "I'm not saying I'm going to sign it," he added.

Grrr.

Today I asked the secretary if my usual Friday afternoon meeting with him was still on (it gets cancelled about half the time if he's traveling). She said he'd already gone out of town again--he was only here briefly on Thursday. My heart sank. I'd have to wait until next week for the letter. Then I asked "I don't suppose he signed the letter?"

"Oh, I have a signed letter right here."

I nearly had a heart attack at those words. Seriously, I was incoherent. I babbled, hung up the phone and literally ran upstairs to see with my own eyes.

Once over my exhuberance I wondered suspiciously why he didn't email me to tell me it was signed.

I won't say all my problems are over...I still have that 20% of my salary to find...or I get to take a 20% paycut. Ouch. I've told my new boss that I have the letter, and I hope to start moving my stuff to his lab next week.

This was a welcome change of pace from yesterday. Yesterday, I got an email that the paper I submitted last week was rejected without review [1]. Another grant rejected [2]. And our little parakeet died.

[1] "The main point, X, isn't sufficient for a full-length publication." First of all, the main point wasn't X, it was Y. Second, my co-author published X (which I cited) in a much higher prestige journal than this one. I remembered that when I told my boss I wanted to submit to this journal, because my paper fits its scope perfectly, even though it's not as high impact factor as others, that my boss said "They won't take it because the editor doesn't like me." Well, the editor isn't the only one... Anyway, I called the editor-in-chief and explained that my main point wasn't X and that Y was worthy of a full-length article, and he asked me to resubmit the paper with that response.

So we'll see. If that fails, I'll try another journal. Perhaps there is still an editor out there that my boss hasn't ticked off.

[2] which would have covered that 20% salary.

[Geonz]

Wht do you mean, you wonder why he didn't email you? He very obviously has a DESPERATE need to make this as difficult as possible for you and never to make so much as a keystroke on a computer on your behalf if he can help it. My guess from your description is it would have looked bad to the wrong other people for him to delay signing it any more, and that's why he bothered, but he wants you to twist in the wind absolutely as much as possible.

GLAD you got the signed paper :D :D

HOPE the resubmission flies !!!!

Have a good bike ride to channel the stress...

[DrBee]

Sorry to hear about the troubles you're having. I'm coming into this conversation a bit late. Too bad about the manuscript - I'd try to find a different journal.

I was in academia - was groomed for it. I found people were increasingly unhappy as I moved to bigger and bigger universities. I guess that was because of more grant pressure - who knows? I eventually chose gov't research. It offers solid funding (as long as congress passes a budget), no grant pressure, and job stability, and good salary. It doesn't work for everyone, but sure was a good fit for me.

good luck!

[Melalvai]

I've got TWO signatures now (old boss and new boss), of course the 2nd one was no problem at all. All the forms & letters were submitted to the grants office today. Now I wait until I hear it has gone to the funding agency...then wait for their official decision.

My new boss let me move some stuff from the ultralow freezer over to his lab, yesterday and today.

I can't wait until he lets me move my other equipment in, and assigns me a desk.

One nice thing about this place is that the old smoking shelters were converted to bike shelters. I've loved that. The new place has one tiny cruddy bike rack under a tree. I hope I can find a way to stash my bike inside the building.

[Melalvai]

I got a grant!!!!!
(There are not enough exclamation points in the world to do justice to that sentence.)
Both my NIH grants were triaged. My new boss' NIH grant was on the edge of being funded but the latest word is the cut-off is up to 10%, higher than ever, so no funding despite an excellent score. This was my last hope before accepting a paycut, it is a small internal grant--but big enough to take care of the part of my salary not covered by my fellowship, and big enough to pay for my rats for a while longer.

Finally things are turning around. It makes me a little nervous...

[madscot13]

you should try and run some experiments as quickly as possible. If science is on your side you should take advantage of it.

[DrBee]

congrats!!!!! Use it wisely!

[Melalvai]

This may be the last update on this thread for a couple years. I had no office for over two weeks. I left my boxes in the garage and did as much work as I could (very little, that is) from home. Having no office meant no server, which meant my files stored on a couple DVDs didn't have a place to live, so working with them was just not possible.

Last Tuesday my rats moved over to the animal facility in my new building. I have a back-log of rat data to enter, from my office-less period!

Yesterday I moved into my office. Copied all my files onto the server, using my computer which is all hooked up--server, email, printer. One box still sits on my desk, waiting for the key to the locked drawers. No one knows who has it so they ordered a new key.

I hauled all my boxes by bike. I got several waves, smiles, thumbs-up.

My bike looks nice against the wall outside my cubicle. Though most of the building is small and cramped, there is enough room right here that I can lean my bike against the wall without being in the way.

It seems ok. But when it comes down to it, it's just another postdoc. I have trouble getting excited about it.