bike fit--art vs. science (long)

[divingbiker]

Sorry, this is really long. But I want to share my experience having two professional fittings done on the same road bike (an ’05 Specialized Sequoia Comp (http://www.specialized.com/bc/SBCBkModel.jsp?arc=2005&sid=05Sequoia)). The specific problem I was trying to solve was that I wasn’t confident using the brakes from the hoods, and I couldn’t even reach the brakes from the drops (I have stubby fingers and fairly small hands.) I’ve got auxiliary brake levers on the top of the handlebars, which I use most often. I probably spend over 95% of my time on the top of the bars, just so I can have access to the brakes.

My LBS is owned by a woman who has a great reputation as a fitter, but my observations of fit sessions there had left me with the impression that they were tilted toward the “how does that feel?” end of the spectrum. I don’t know how it’s supposed to feel, and I’m an engineer (by training anyway), so I wanted something more “scientific.”

So last fall, I went to a shop that uses the Serotta Fit Kit system. It was over an hour away, but a friend had had a fitting there and was satisfied with the results. Rather than using my bike, I was fitted to the “Size Cycle” and analyzed by a fancy computer system, the “Computrainer Pro”. Then the measurements from the “Size Cycle” were supposedly incorporated into changes in my bike’s saddle height, stem length, bar height, etc. I also paid extra for a cleat alignment. The fitter never put me on my bike to make sure everything seemed right, and I was never observed riding the bike.

I got the bike home and felt the handlebars—38cm Salsa Pocos--were waaaay too narrow. I still couldn’t use the brakes from the hoods or the drops, and there wasn’t even enough real estate on the bar to comfortably fit the auxiliary brake levers. I found that after the fitting, I didn’t want to ride my road bike because the bars were so narrow; I think I only rode it a couple of times last fall. I called the fitter to talk about it, but he just said I had to ride it more. I didn’t want to ride it more—it wasn’t comfortable, and really didn’t even feel safe.

So last month I decided to try to solve my brake reach and drop discomfort problems by getting a different handlebar, a 40cm Bontrager Fit VR (http://bontrager.com/model/06244/en) . This is a women’s bar (zencentury has them on her bike) with a very short reach and drop. When I went to the LBS (with the good fitter) to check the positioning of the hoods on the new bars before having them taped, a shop employee commented that my arms were much too straight and that my fit was way off. I decided to bite the bullet and have another fitting done, this time the “artistic” way.

Well. What a difference.

First I just pedaled the bike on the trainer. I complained that something seemed to be wrong with the trainer because it was very jerky, and I couldn’t pedal smoothly. She ignored me:p, and said that my left leg appeared to be a bit shorter than my right, so she repositioned my right cleat to make up for the difference. I told her that it felt like I was pedaling with my toes, so she moved the cleats back and tweaked them a bit, and angled the left cleat because my knee wasn’t tracking properly. She also moved the saddle back a tad, lowered it, and changed its angle. Voila! I could pedal perfectly smoothly now—the problem wasn’t the trainer, it was me!

She also changed the stem and its angle (went from 75mm to 110mm with a higher rise), and experimented with the tilt of the bars and the position of the hoods on the bars. I went back a few days later (after the brake cables were attached on the new handlebars) and rode it for about 20 minutes, with her observing.

On Sunday I did a 38 mile ride, and it felt (mostly) great. I never used the brakes on the top of the bars, and spent most of my time on the hoods. I may need to lower the bars a tad, and my right knee seemed like it was moving around a bit, but overall I had no aches or pains (which is remarkable since I haven’t ridden my road bike since last fall.) I know that the second fitter would never tell me to keep riding it if there was any discomfort; she wants to know right away and fix it.

Maybe the Serotta Fit Kit system works better when one is ordering a custom bike instead of using the measurements to retrofit an existing bike. At this point, I’m sold on the non-scientific method of fitting.:)

[KnottedYet]

I took a fitting class from one of the guys who designed the Serotta system.

He is *all* about the body on the bike. The size cycle and stuff is just meant to get the fitter a neutral ground to play with, a neutral place to start if they need it. (we talked about it a bit, but we didn't even use it in class, as we had real bikes.) Then it's all supposed to go to your bike and your body and the next hour or so is about your bike and how you feel and tweaking it. Two folks can have the same abstract measurements, but very different fits depending on their flexibility, asymmetries, habits, preferences, etc.

The dude you saw stopped before he got to the most important part!

I'm sorry your Serotta experience was a cruddy one.

Edit: I should add that what I took was NOT a Serotta class.

[Veronica]

You said KY what I couldn't quite articulate yet this morning. :) I was thinking, "Why didn't he have her get on her bike to see how it felt?"

My bike fit guy sent me out for a ride after watching me on the trainer.

Cleat positioning was included in my bike fit and he did both sets of my shoes.

V.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Did you ever get the problem solved with shims that enable your fingers to reach well around the brake levers?
I had the same problem and it was MAJOR unpleasant (and unsafe feeling), but now I have shimmed levers and it's a dream to be able to actually wrap my fingers around the brakes instead of just pulling at them with the tips of my fingers and hoping they don't slip out of my grasp.

[divingbiker]

The dude you saw stopped before he got to the most important part!

Well, now you tell me!:D Maybe this is why: he had to install the Poco handlebars and the shop was busy when I picked up the bike, so the actual on-bike fitting just didn't happen. Or maybe he never does on-bike fittings, I don't know.


Did you ever get the problem solved with shims that enable your fingers to reach well around the brake levers? .

Not quite. Once the bar tape and gel were installed, and I put gloves on, the levers are still a bit too far away. I've already got shims in them, but the mechanic at the shop is going to rig up a little bit more of a shim next weekend (had to order some special glue or something.) As it is, it's workable, but I'll be a bit more comfortable with a little less distance to the levers. The new bars really help.

[mimitabby]

what a crazy story. who ever heard of a bike fit where you don't get observed riding the bike?
My bike fit included science, measuring and comfort. Yes, you don't know how it's supposed to feel, but if you're feeling pain, something's not right. and the cleats and the handlebars were part of the whole thing.

having said that, i'm not sure i'll ever have it just right, i wonder why they put the brake levers out there anyway! ps, I don't understand the shims.
where would you put them?

[Starfish]

ps, I don't understand the shims.
where would you put them?

http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/COMPSHRDSH/LD7803

(Slight hijack)

MimiT, if you go to the link (a picture of some Shimano hoods/levers), see right at the top of the hood where the metal meets the black part? When you pull the lever, a little space naturally opens. The shims go in that space to bring the lever closer to start with. The cables have to be adjusted to take up the slack.

I have a love/hate relationship with shims. Right now I have one set on, and they help, but they are not perfect...the reach is still a stretch. I used to have 2 sets of shims, and I could reach my brakes, but the braking was crummy.

I am dragging my feet on getting new bars, because I LOVE the curves in my current bars.

[tulip]

Ain't Jill great!? I've had two fittings with her on two of my bikes, and have been oh-so-comfy ever since.

I bet that computer didn't catch your discrepancy in leg length. Who knows what else it didn't catch.

I will drive all the way from Richmond to have Jill give me a fitting. She is well worth every cent. And she's not just intuition. She's science, too, but knows that the best fit is a combination of both.

[Triskeliongirl]

The way my fitter explained it when I went to get fitted for a custom crank set for my LLD, is that things like saddle height, fore/aft position, crank length, cleat positioning, are very scientific/measurement based, but reach is much more comfort based. Yes, the more aero your body is positioned the faster you can go in a wind tunnel, howerver, if your body can't hold that position comfortably it gets you no where. So, while my fitter set up all the scientific things for me (including designing a custom crank set with a dropped pedal that corrects a 3 cm LLD), he left the reach part up to me (of course a fitter can recommend a starting point, but you need to tweak it). He recommends riding with a fit stem to find the right balance between aerodynamics and comfort for your body.

[Starfish]

He recommends riding with a fit stem to find the right balance between aerodynamics and comfort for your body.

Never heard of this? :confused:

[GLC1968]

Ok, I came into this post expecting to see something about how a great fit is a combination of art and science... and my first thoughts were the same as Knot - the first guy only gave you half the fit experience!!

I was also fitted by one of the Serrotta system founders (I believe...or maybe she was one of the original trainers?...I forget). My fitting took 3 hours, included things like tests of my core strength and flexibility, cleat alignment, power testing, etc. It was a fantastic experience and worth every stinkin' penny. She even gave me all the final basic measurements so that
1) if I ever changed any component on my bike, I could get it realigned myself
2) I could set up my commuter with the same fit (or close, anyway).

Your first fitting experience makes me so sad to read!! I'm glad you are finally getting things set up right so that you can enjoy riding again.

[HillSlugger]

Well, now you tell me!:D Maybe this is why: he had to install the Poco handlebars and the shop was busy when I picked up the bike, so the actual on-bike fitting just didn't happen. Or maybe he never does on-bike fittings, I don't know.


I had a fitting done at the same place and I, too, was never observed riding my own bike. Whatever he did with my cleat position and seat setback made a huge difference, but he struck out with the stem length and I ended up putting back the shorter one myself. Before I went I was never comfortable on my hoods and did most of my riding on the drops. He did manage to fix that up for me with different bars and brifter placement.

[Kalidurga]

The dude you saw stopped before he got to the most important part!
Well, now you tell me!:D Maybe this is why: he had to install the Poco handlebars and the shop was busy when I picked up the bike, so the actual on-bike fitting just didn't happen. Or maybe he never does on-bike fittings, I don't know.

OK, I feel like I need to defend the Serotta dude. I'm the friend who had the fitting and recommended him. In my fit session, there was a lot of "How does that feel?" He took a lot of measurements while I was on the fit cycle, but he also spent time just standing back, watching me pedal, and asking me how it felt. Plus, I made a point of paying a lot of attention to the specific issues that I was concerned with, and kept asking him to make adjustments so that I could feel what sort of difference there might be. And when I picked up my bike after he had made alterations to it, he had me go out and ride it for a while, then come back and let him know how it felt. He very clearly told me that I might need to ride several times to get used to some of the changes, and to let him know if there was anything I just couldn't adjust to. And I got everything from him that GLC1968 got from her Serotta fitter. The result of my session was that I've had none of the neck and shoulder pain that I did before the Serotta fitting with this dude.

I think that a caveat has to be added to this conversation. Yes, there are a lot of elements that go into making someone a good fitter. There are also a lot of elements that can make one fitting process better than another. But I also think that rapport and communication with your fitter are very important. It's probably safe to say that no one fitter/fit process is going to be perfect for every cyclist, just like no one bike is perfect for every cyclist.

Janice, I'm glad you were able to get your issues worked out. I've heard a lot of great things about Jill, and it seems she was the perfect person for you to go to.

[HillSlugger]

I should correct/elaborate:

Yes, he did ask a lot of "how does this feel" questions while he kept an eye on the computer readout.

Overall what he did was a huge improvement, especially the new cleat positioning, but it did need some tweaking. As far as I'm concerned a good bike fitting is a combination of science and art.

[Triskeliongirl]

Never heard of this? :confused:

A fit stem is a stem that allows you to adjust both the height and reach very easily and 'dial in' your fit. I first used one on my bike friday, but they make them for any kind of bike. They are usually expensive so good shops will often loan you one until your fit is dialed in, and then they can use how you adjusted it to replace it with a normal stem. The disadvantage of the fit stem is that it is usually heavy, but its great for tweaking your fit.

[SouthernBelle]

what a crazy story. who ever heard of a bike fit where you don't get observed riding the bike?
My bike fit included science, measuring and comfort. Yes, you don't know how it's supposed to feel, but if you're feeling pain, something's not right. and the cleats and the handlebars were part of the whole thing.

having said that, i'm not sure i'll ever have it just right, i wonder why they put the brake levers out there anyway! ps, I don't understand the shims.
where would you put them?
Aw, Mimi, don't you remember the pic of my shimmed levers with the orange tape?

[ridebikeme]

Wow!i'm glad that you are feeling better on your bike!As someone who also does bike fits, I can tell you there is a lot of variety in how one completes one. let me give you an example... about 18 years ago an older gentleman showed me how to do* a bike fit with a plumb bob and by sight. I didn't question him because he was a national caliber rider and was always helping people with their fit on the bike.(all of this based from the shop that I worked at ) Later my shop bought the FIT KIT... I had one of the shop guys fit me again, and believe it or not, everything that was previously set was right on the money. I realize many of you may disagree, but the bottom line is that people have been doing this for many years BEFORE all of the systems that are out there today. While I think many of them are good, it still relies on the person doing the fit .. how they can adapt numbers/fittings to different people... we need to be able to work with the information that a system can give us, BUT the ultimate fit is being able to adapt that to each of us. Simply taking a class or two, doesn't quarantee that someone can do that.

FYI.... for future people with handlebar issues... not only does a bar that is too narrow compromise the handling of the bike, it also does not allow your lungs to fully open as well.

Have a great ride everyone!

[Starfish]

A fit stem is a stem that allows you to adjust both the height and reach very easily and 'dial in' your fit.

Hmmmmm, thank you. Never heard of this before! :)

[mimitabby]

Aw, Mimi, don't you remember the pic of my shimmed levers with the orange tape?

no. i remember folks talking about it though.
Thanks for the explanation!!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

having said that, i'm not sure i'll ever have it just right, i wonder why they put the brake levers out there anyway!

Because they design them for men's larger hands.

[aicabsolut]

First, I'm glad you went with women's bars and that they have done a lot to help with your reach problems. That's what I was going to recommend when I started reading your post. That worked for me with my bike, and I don't have to use shims.

As for the shims and all, if the normal ones are still not enough, have you tried looking into short reach levers? Are you running Shimano? What level? Newer Ultegra or DA shifters have a shorter reach than older models. Then there are the odler style, like these Ultegra ones that can be fitted with 2 thicknesses of shims: http://www.awcycles.co.uk/brands/Shimano/R700%20STI%20levers%20short%20reach%2010-speed/11617/index.aspx

Finally, if you're running Shimano, have you considered moving to Campy? A lot of people prefer shape of the hoods and the reach of Campy levers to Shimano. That's of course a potentially pricey change, but if it helps you get out and ride your bike...

[madscot13]

I considered doing the fit at Proteus, because you recommended it so highly. goiwever, I actually don't have any problems with my bike, except for those pesky reach issues. That said it is great that yours is working out so well. If I find later in the season that it has not worked well, I will know where to go to!

[divingbiker]

As for the shims and all, if the normal ones are still not enough, have you tried looking into short reach levers? Are you running Shimano? What level? Newer Ultegra or DA shifters have a shorter reach than older models. Then there are the odler style, like these Ultegra ones that can be fitted with 2 thicknesses of shims: http://www.awcycles.co.uk/brands/Shimano/R700%20STI%20levers%20short%20reach%2010-speed/11617/index.aspx

Finally, if you're running Shimano, have you considered moving to Campy? A lot of people prefer shape of the hoods and the reach of Campy levers to Shimano. That's of course a potentially pricey change, but if it helps you get out and ride your bike...

I did look into the short reach levers, and that's not a cheap switch either. I'm not planning on keeping this bike forever (I have a dream of getting a custom bike, hopefully in the next year) so I don't want to dump any more money into it than I already have.

Jill (the second fitter) suggested I look at SRAM shifters when I get a new bike. I looked at them on a bike in the shop, and they were noticeably smaller and more comfortable.

[F8th637]

Janice, glad to hear that you have resolved a lot of your issues. It really is truly amazing how Jill can just look at you and see those kinds of things about your body. I would definitely be frustrated if I didn't feel comfortable on the tops. Jill does a great job with making sure the bike is right for you and it fits you well. If you have an issue, I definitely think it's worth a visit to her. I'm an engineer to so I know what you mean about the numbers but, man, does she know what she's talking about. I have had minimal issues with the bike I bought from them. I guess having long fingers and arms helps too. :p

[aicabsolut]

I did look into the short reach levers, and that's not a cheap switch either. I'm not planning on keeping this bike forever (I have a dream of getting a custom bike, hopefully in the next year) so I don't want to dump any more money into it than I already have.

Jill (the second fitter) suggested I look at SRAM shifters when I get a new bike. I looked at them on a bike in the shop, and they were noticeably smaller and more comfortable.

And with SRAM you can match your hoods with your bar tape :)

[Zen]

Here's the fit stem (http://bikefitkit.com/fit_kit/fit_stem.php).
Supposedly, some shops will let you rent or borrow one.
Pretty cool little item.

[7rider]

As far as I'm concerned a good bike fitting is a combination of science and art.

Here, here.