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Flybye
04-04-2008, 07:16 PM
Since I am new to the spin class and my instructor can't be much more than, like, say, totally twelve years old :eek: or something :rolleyes: can you spinners give me and other newbies who have recently been won over to spinning some spinning No No's. Tips on what not to follow a trainer in doing or in doing ourselves?

Thankya thankya thankya!

Zen
04-04-2008, 09:47 PM
Pffff hahaha....sorry, I'm laughing because i do whatever i feel like most of the time.

I work hard but if I need more time to recover, I take it. If i don't want to stand, sprint, or climb, I don't.

I don't know what else to tell you.

I think the only thing I could tell you not to do are hamstring stretches while on the bike.

Tuckervill
04-05-2008, 05:02 AM
I don't go to spin classes. I just wanted to say that I try to apply zen's philosophy pretty much to my whole life!! :)

But seriously, I do go to boot camp 3x a week. An interesting exchange between me and the instructor; we were doing a circuit and I was down on the floor doing the ab-roller.

Me: How long are we going? [I need to know this so I'll know when to switch sides.]

He: Go til I tel you to stop (he was tongue-in-cheek, but still)

Me: Ha. I'm secure in the knowledge you can't make me do anything I don't want to do.

He: Were you also a strong-willed child?

Me: I believe the word they used on my report card was "headstrong".

Participate at your own level. Do just what zen said to do. You only submit to their instruction at your pleasure anyway. They can't "make you" do anything at all.

Karen

latelatebloomer
04-05-2008, 05:39 AM
Once a spin "instructor" at our gym had people put the fronts of their bikes up on the plastic blocks used in the step classes. don't do that, 'kay? (things like this happen when management throws any trainer on a bike to lead a class, I hate it.)

And be aware of your warm-up needs. Take the time you need even if the person leading the class wants you at 75% in the first five minutes.

It is possible to hurt yourself on a spin bike, so when something doesn't feel right, stop doing it. There's the "pleasurable" pain of working your muscles and lungs hard, but joint pain IS a no-no. For example, some instructors have us do jumps - lifting up off the seat to a forward position and sitting down again - in quick succession. I have a knee that hates them - but I can do every OTHER jump & concentrate on form/control.

Drink lots, even if the instructor isn't cueing you.

oh, and stay off bike 18. That's my favorite.:p

KnottedYet
04-05-2008, 06:45 AM
I've had a couple people who were injured (knees) from "mashing" in spin class, where the instructor had them turn the resistance waaaaay up and pretend they were climbing a hill.

I asked if they switched gears while riding their real bikes, so they could keep cadence up hills. "Yup, we do." "Does your knee hurt when you're on your real bike?' "Nope, it doesn't." If you don't mash on your real bike, be very careful about how much you mash on the spin bike.

Like LateLate said, if it hurts it's not good. Listen to your knees, especially... cuz you don't want to end up in physical therapy! (insert evil laugh here) :D

Funhog
04-05-2008, 10:12 AM
I've got a long list for you!! In fact, I am in the middle of writing an e-book on the subject that will be called Keep It Real. I'll be marketing it through www.roadbikerider.com, and on my Spinning blog (http://funhogspins.blogspot.com). (expected completion...end of summer). Of course, I come up with resistance from the instructors who actually think aerobics on an indoor stationary bike that doesn't move is good in the name of "fitness"...
But we cyclists know it isn't!

Rule of thumb: if you wouldn't do it outdoors, don't do it indoors. That being said, there are some "safe" things we can do indoors, that are just drills. Jumps for example - an outdoor movement that has been modified indoors into a drill. You wouldn't go down the street rhythmically coming out of and back into your saddle. Indoors it's fun and can improve your transitions, and works your anaerobic system. And it provides variety for students. Personally, I rarely jump in class. But students like it (just don't do them too fast, see below...).

I wrote the Contraindications continuing ed workshop for Spinning about 6 years ago after being horrified by what I saw as rampant craziness in indoor cycling classes around the country. I looked at the biomechanics of the most popular moves, and interviewed well-known cycling coaches and scientist on some of them (including Joe Friel, and even Ed Burke shortly before he passed away. He's the author of countless books, like The Science of Cycing).

Most importantly, I looked at the Risk:Benefit ratio of each move.
Is there a risk? Can it injure joints, muscles, soft tissue, etc? Do you have to be a skilled acrobat to do it? If you answered yes to any of these, don't do it!

What's the benefit? Will it help your cycling? Will it improve your endurance, pedal stroke, strength, leg speed? Will it cause positive physiological adaptations?

Mind you, this is not a "philosophy" difference of the different kinds of IDC programs. This is looking at the science and biomechanics. If someone says their "program" taught them it's ok to do isolations or squats, then you have to wonder if that program knows anything about cycling or biomechanics. These bikes are solid pieces of metal that don't flex or bend or move, and that has implications on how we should move our bodies while riding it. You can't go doing things that go against the proper biomechanical principles of riding a bike, and you must also take into consideration the differences (like, not flexing).

Here's a partial list of Contraindicated Moves (Just Don't Do It!):

Isolations: AKA Freezes. Benefit: NONE! It causes tension and muscle and joints pain. I've never figured this one out, why instructors teach this. Does nothing for balance, as some say. Does nothing for core, as some say. If you want to train your core - get on a stability ball! Because the bike doesn't flex, you must allow the energy created by the legs to dissipate through your upper body; Isolating or freezing stops this energy - and it goes right into a joint.

Squats: similar to the above, but you lower your hips, or squat. They claim to "love the burn in the quads." That burn is from mechanical inefficiency of the muscle fibers - it's not a good burn. Pay attention to the pain in the knees! These instructors must get commissions from local orthopedic doctors... Here's an example: next time you see a long flight of stairs, or multiple floors, climb them without straightening your leg. You would soon tell me I'm crazy because it hurts your knee. And I might say, "but wow, isn't that a great burn in the thighs?" Wouldn't you continue that in the name of "fitness"? No way, so why do people let instructors in Spin class tell them to do this? You want that leg workout? Go to the gym and do leg presses - it has no place in an indoor cycling class. High risk: zero benefit.

Hovers: pushing your butt back over the saddle (and freezing). Supposedly to mimic a mountain bike position...but if you've ever gone downhill on a single track (the only time you'd do this), YOU'RE NOT PEDALING and you're moving your bike side to side underneath you. So doing this indoors on a stationary metal bike will do you no good, and it puts the PCL on stretch and hinders a proper pedal stroke. High risk: no benefit, no skill transfer.

Upper body movements (side-to-side, figure-8's, "cornering", push-ups, etc). My legs are going round and round 80-90-100 times per minute, and you're asking me to twist or turn my upper body? High risk of injuries to the low back and other body parts. Better have your chiropractor's number handy! Benefit? None. Especially pushups - if you've ever done them on the floor you know that to improve your strength, you need resistance - your body weight against gravity. Sorry, doing them on a handlebar just doesn't cut it.

"Popcorn" jumps (or superfast jumps): Silly, silly move. No point, no benefit, very high risk. They hurt, but people blindly follow. They hinder a good pedal stroke, they risk the knees, back, hips and shoulders. You should sit all the way down in the saddle each time (some instructors say "don't sit completely in the saddle - which causes you to decelerate with your back muscles - ouch!), and come all the way to the correct standing position.

Super fast cadences: you might think it helps leg-speed, but that 38-42 lb flywheel does most of the work for you at high cadences, so no benefit. Unless you're a categoried racer, or someone with a very high power-to-resistance ratio (and a beautifully trained smooth pedal stroke), if you're going faster than 110 rpm for any length of time, you won't see any improvement in your own leg speed. It's very different on a bike outdoors. Plus, there's high risk for less conditioned or skilled riders and makes HR control difficult. If you're going that fast, you'd be better off adding resistance and slowing down, and then maybe getting something out of it. No benefit: High risk, little to no skill transfer.

ONe-legged pedaling: being a fixed-gear bike with a heavy flywheel, this does nothing for you on a stationary bike, and if the pedal hits your other leg, it doesn't stop like your road bike will (ouch). Try this on your road bike on a trainer - it's very difficult and is an excellent way to train the neuromuscular firing patterns of your pedaling leg. Then try it on a Spin bike: it's so easy! There's no transfer of skill, no adaptations. No benefit: high risk, no skill transfer.

Super high resistances: if you can't climb that hill at 60 rpm (one per second) you have too much resistance. If there's any kind of body-contorting just to turn the pedals, it's too high. Cycling isn't about "pure strength", it's about muscular endurance. The ability to repeatedly contract against a resistance. People get injured from this, and really, it doesn't impress anyone. It's an ego move...

Hold your abs in: cyclists need to breathe, and we need to breathe from the abdomen. Holding the abs tight in the name of "core conditioning" hinders breathing, and hence, 02 transport. you can maintain your core without sucking in the abs. Tour de France cyclists learn to breathe with extended bellies - so should we if we want increase oxygenation! [But cyclists do need lots of off-the-bike core training because riding a bike doesn't help us much there, just don't do it on the bike].

Jump Starts: there's lots of names for this, but it's starting at a high resistance from a total stand still, and then sprinting as hard as you can go. This could potentially be helpful for racers and power riders, but not for your general Spin class. The problem is these indoor bikes aren't designed for this kind of torque, and those crank arms can break. True story: an instructor I know told me of a large guy in class who was powering on his pedals, the crank broke, and it ended up embedded IN his calf.... ugh!:eek: I had a chain break on me one time while in a standing climb and I thank my lucky stars I wasn't injured...imagine doing something high powered like this and "crack"!

One final thought:

Just ride the bike!

;)

Zen
04-05-2008, 10:19 AM
Jennifer-

I think your info is good but really geared toward instructors.
For Fly and others like her, information overload!

I could be wrong, it did happen once in 1987.

Funhog
04-05-2008, 10:30 AM
Jennifer-

I think your info is good but really geared toward instructors.
For Fly and others like her, information overload!

I could be wrong, it did happen once in 1987.

Perhaps, but she asked what to do and not to do if her instructor tells her to do something. I believe that if someone is told not to do something, there needs to be justification why not. Maybe for some students who read this, some lightbulbs will go off as a result and they'll change what they're doing - that's a good thing. Maybe they love the "burn" they get from isolations or squats but always wondered whether that pain in the back or knees made it worth the risk.

Also, maybe someone will want to print this out and give it to their instructor if he/she does a lot of contraindicated moves - maybe his/her classes will become safer. If only one instructor or spin student out there benefits from this, then I'm grateful!

Or maybe it's overload...

I'm open to any questions about any of these moves.

Zen
04-05-2008, 10:44 AM
Also, maybe someone will want to print this out and give it to their instructor if he/she does a lot of contraindicated moves

That would be a bit...nervy:rolleyes:.

VeloVT
04-05-2008, 11:44 AM
I actually wasn't bothered by the amount of information offered here -- it didn't seem like overload (then I'm a little compulsive and probably have a tendency to do the same thing). I wonder if what bothered Zen (& others!) was a little bit of an appearance that all of this information was offered partly as a plug for the poster's business (some previous posts have seemed this way too)? Which is really not what the forums are for, I think... But I could definitely be wrong. (It's happened once or twice :D).

Zen
04-05-2008, 12:19 PM
partly that, partly because it's kind of common sense(if it hurts don't do it, if you're tired, recover) and partly because I have such a case of ADD :p

Julibird
04-05-2008, 02:52 PM
If only one instructor or spin student out there benefits from this, then I'm grateful!


I am glad you took the time to add so much info! I think there are some really bad classes being taught out there giving Spinning a bad reputation among cyclists who happen to attend them.

Worse, there are people who will follow an instructor who teaches these crazy moves and end up with an injury (I know - my first teacher was fond of hovers and popcorn jumps and my knee started to suffer).

Thanks. Good stuff.

salsabike
04-05-2008, 03:23 PM
Funhog, that was really excellent--just emailed it to self and spouse to keep. Good info.

Flybye
04-05-2008, 04:05 PM
Funhog, you are awesome! Thank you for all of the tips and the explanations. I don't want to get caught not doing something and asked why and have no answer. Uhhh, cause it's contraindicated, that's why................ Why is it contraindicated? Uhhhhh, cause someone said so :rolleyes::D

Here is what I have found that she has been advising wrong so far:

Too short of warm ups.

Unclip and pedal with a single leg.

Mashing - though it hasn't hurt me - but I will not turn my tension up nearly as high as I have had it.


The last thing I want is an injury early in the season (or anytime for that matter :rolleyes:) because of a spin class that I am taking to increase endurance and get things moving while the weather is too cold for consistent riding. All of your tips so far have opened my eyes - that's why I asked in the first place.



I have no problem not following someone else. There have been a couple of things that the instructor said that I didn't follow. For example, she asked us (she specifically looked at me) not to turn down our tension when we sat after a 90 second standing hill climb. Yeah, whatever, I was pooped!

I actually see some benefit to giving a copy of Funhog's sheet to instructors. Might be a bit on the risky side, but who gives a flying fart? If it is done with the right attitude and with grace, it could help her and others.

Zen - You are right, for some this might be too much, for them I say, just know the basics. If it is information overload, come back to it another time and refresh.

Thanks - this has turned into a very educational thread!

Zen
04-05-2008, 10:16 PM
I don't want to get caught not doing something and asked why and have no answer.

I doubt any spin instructor will ever ask you that. It's spin class, not school. someone may ask if you have a bad knee (I still doubt it) but really if you remain seated while everyone else is standing it shouldn't be any of their concern.
Something they should ask about is if someone looks like they're overexerting or having a hard time breathing.
At my club,any instructor caught teaching unsafe practices will be fired on the spot.

Zen
04-05-2008, 10:23 PM
I actually see some benefit to giving a copy of Funhog's sheet to instructors. Might be a bit on the risky side, but who gives a flying fart? If it is done with the right attitude and with grace, it could help her and others.

Think about how the instructor will view this.
He/she has invested time and money to be certified. She views herself as knowledgeable and a leader. Now here comes some new kid who read something on the interweb and is now telling her how wrong she is.
I'm just sayin...

Julibird
04-06-2008, 03:51 AM
Think about how the instructor will view this.
He/she has invested time and money to be certified. She views herself as knowledgeable and a leader. Now here comes some new kid who read something on the interweb and is now telling her how wrong she is.
I'm just sayin...

Yes...but Jen Sage is one of the best known and respected presenters for MDA/Spinning. She has written some of the curriculum, she is one of a small number of headlined presenters at their largest conference in Miami, attended by people from all over North and South America (including the perhaps more familiar Coach Troy of Spinervals who presents smaller workhops).

It may be a subculture - but if you're in it (an instructor), you might receive her words without taking offense. Maybe.

Tuckervill
04-06-2008, 07:08 AM
You could also present it as a question. "I read about this, here, and I was wondering what you thought about this advice?"

Karen

Flybye
04-06-2008, 10:42 AM
I think I should preface this a bit. I live in a town with a population of about 15,000, give or take a few. The gym is new. The instructor is young. When I tell people that I am taking a spinning class, they say "a what?"

In the classes that I have taken, there have been only 3 students, including myself. That leaves plenty of time for the instructor to chatter and to ask why someone isn't doing what she has instructed.

I realize that she has gone through certification somewhere, but I also realize that as a "consumer" I have a responsibility not to put my trust in her and her training entirely. Heck, I don't even do that with physicians who have a phd. Not even entirely in Funhog or others with their suggestions (sorry). I also think that if she is doing something that is dangerous or could cause harm to another student, it is SOMEONE'S responsibility to say something, be that me or someone else. I would hope that if one of you who had more experience came to class with me and noticed the instructor doing something wrong, you would feel free to approach the instructor graciously. It might squash an ego for a bit, but the benefit outweighs the risk. The benefit would be long lasting - who knows how many classes the instructor might teach and for how many years and how many students. I think that each teacher is different, as well. Some may be completely unapproachable. But then again, that is the most fun kind of person to approach. Guess that's the naughty side of me coming out. I like to get under the skin.


Now here comes some new kid who read something on the interweb and is now telling her how wrong she is. I work with people as a Licensed Social Worker. I have a little couth, when I summon it - I have been known to handle thinks perty prefessnally - once, I think, back in 1987. Thanks for calling me a kid. Never too old to hear that one - but don't tell my three kids you called me that - they might get big ideas!


Just my $.02

Crankin
04-07-2008, 03:36 AM
When I was an aerobics instructor I worked really hard to keep my class SAFE. I knew some clients didn't come to my class because i didn't do certain moves that they viewed as hard and "good" for them, when in reality, they didn't do anything but hurt you. I really didn't care. When I go to spin class, if I don't hover or do the silly jumps, the instructor pretty much knows why! But, some of the spin instructors, i.e. the ones who aren't cyclists keep doing this stuff. I am not sure why if the training is telling them these moves are contraindicated.
I think the list presented above is excellent and most people who go to spin regularly will understand it!

Tuckervill
04-07-2008, 04:32 AM
I think I should preface this a bit. I live in a town with a population of about 15,000, give or take a few. The gym is new. The instructor is young. When I tell people that I am taking a spinning class, they say "a what?"

I know that feeling! You should see the looks on faces in my small southern town when I say I went on a cruise with Barenaked Ladies! ;)


I realize that she has gone through certification somewhere, but I also realize that as a "consumer" I have a responsibility not to put my trust in her and her training entirely. Heck, I don't even do that with physicians who have a phd. Not even entirely in Funhog or others with their suggestions (sorry). I also think that if she is doing something that is dangerous or could cause harm to another student, it is SOMEONE'S responsibility to say something, be that me or someone else. I would hope that if one of you who had more experience came to class with me and noticed the instructor doing something wrong, you would feel free to approach the instructor graciously. It might squash an ego for a bit, but the benefit outweighs the risk. The benefit would be long lasting - who knows how many classes the instructor might teach and for how many years and how many students.

I completely agree! And if you can't change the instructor's mind, you can always serve as a good example. I don't do anything in my boot camp class that I think will make me sore later (but I still do something), and I feel free to modify at will. Some people are so rule bound that they wouldn't DREAM of doing anything other than exactly what the instructor says. So I modify, and that lets everyone who is feeling stressed over it relax a little, and then they are modifying and doing only what they CAN do.

And guess what? I can now do EVERYTHING in the class, because I went at my own pace and did what I could and kept trying and didn't get discouraged and refused to feel guilty about anything I couldn't do. [This is a class run by PTs so nothing they do is unsafe. Hard but never unsafe!]

Karen

kjay
04-07-2008, 07:16 AM
Funhog, thanks for your very thorough and informative message. It is not 'information overload' by any means. I think we should all be appreciative of your willingness to take the time to provide us with this info.

Flybye
04-07-2008, 11:37 AM
Completely off topic here but I am coveting the User CP Funhog and the avatar. Have been for days. You are a Funhog!!!:D:D:D

Why didn't I think of that????

karenxfiles
04-07-2008, 11:17 PM
I think the information on the contraindicated moves was great......i go to some free classes at the military base, and there are a lot of macho guys in the class. There are 3 different instructors. One is a real "outdoor" cyclist, and I really like his class. But one of the other guys is always doing that hopping up and down stuff, and doing push ups on the bike, and doing that "hovering" thing. I am by nature a very disobedient person:cool:, so i was sort of modifying things by not turning the # of "turns" that the instructor said to, etc. Maybe that is why I sit in the back of the room. Anyhow, I was wondering for the last few weeks if some of this stuff was potentially harmful, and now at least i'm a bit more informed.

Thanks!:rolleyes:

Funhog
04-09-2008, 10:17 AM
That would be a bit...nervy:rolleyes:.

Yeah, it is! I was asked one time by a student for the info so she could give it to her instructor because she was dying for some sanity in her class as she put it. I thought it was nervy of her, but she later told me he was fine about it. I don't think I would do it myself - I'd find a different instructor but I don't think she had that option, it was a small town with one club.

But Zen is so right about the common sense part of it. The only problem, is that some people put their instructors up on pedestals and follow them blindly and do anything he or she says to do, so the "common sense" goes out the windows. IMO, cyclists are a little bit smarter about this in an IDC class.

Funhog
04-09-2008, 10:31 AM
At my club,any instructor caught teaching unsafe practices will be fired on the spot.

Gosh, I wish this were the norm! Far too many clubs/managers don't give a flying fart (sorry to steal the expression...love it)! Some even encourage their instructors to do "whatever" it takes to get more numbers in, and sadly, some of the most popular instructors are the ones doing the most contraindicated movements.

If the information I provided was helpful to you, I get a lot of psychic reward for that. Thanks!

If you're lucky enough to have safe and effective IDC instructors, consider yourself ahead of the game!

I've taken this contraindications list and put it on my Spinning Blog. (http://funhogspins.blogspot.com) Please know that this blog is a completely free resource, I get no compensation from it. My goal is to share and help other instructors and Spinning enthusiasts and cyclists grow and learn. If you have an instructor who might need a little "updating" on his/her style, it might be easier to recommend this blog instead of printing out this thread, or even the contraindications list. Lots of profile ideas, physiology, and soon, music suggestions.

Funhog
04-09-2008, 10:39 AM
Completely off topic here but I am coveting the User CP Funhog and the avatar. Have been for days. You are a Funhog!!!:D:D:D

Why didn't I think of that????

The nickname I acquired from friends in 1994 when I left a high paying corporate job in Atlanta to move to Vail to become a ski instructor and personal trainer. Then a few years ago at the Tour de France, we were watching the Publicity Caravan prior to the peleton passing through (it's like a Mardi Gras parade that covers every kilometer of the Tour route). One of the corporate sponsors had this series of silly animal vehicles (a pink pig, a rubber ducky, and others) that paraded by. One of my clients said, "Hey Jennifer, it's you! It's the Funhog!" So I've got his picture posted all over to remind me that life is supposed to be FUN. :D I have a small pink bean bag piggy sitting on my computer monitor watching me as I write...

Funhog
04-09-2008, 11:01 AM
Check these out!

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=nYGkvvaOUww

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pbc8eE4_5qc&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr4DA_SpVOI&feature=related
(I believe these guys have been charged with trademark violations in their title)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIDOfjV2Ecc&feature=related
after this instructor, you may never come back to Spinning!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geXoibrlQHE&feature=related
cha cha cha...

alpinerabbit
04-09-2008, 11:46 AM
oh . my. gods . These vids are horrible.

Zeek
04-10-2008, 06:01 AM
Gosh, I wish this were the norm! Far too many clubs/managers don't give a flying fart (sorry to steal the expression...love it)! Some even encourage their instructors to do "whatever" it takes to get more numbers in, and sadly, some of the most popular instructors are the ones doing the most contraindicated movements.


All too true. If more clubs worried about the quality of instructors they hired life would be grand.

alpinerabbit
04-10-2008, 11:16 AM
Only a cyclist can teach a good spin class. For cyclists anyway.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pC-O6uPQZUQ
But what's with Jonny G's sectarianism. people keep "whooping" that gives me the goosebumps.

and what's with the weaving when out of the saddle. Oh and what's with the ankle position at 5:56....

Dogmama
04-14-2008, 04:01 PM
I still get instructors who spin at super fast cadences while standing. They call it running. I call it death-to-the-knees.

Jen, thanks for the information.

Resi
04-15-2008, 05:32 AM
Only a cyclist can teach a good spin class. For cyclists anyway.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pC-O6uPQZUQ
But what's with Jonny G's sectarianism. people keep "whooping" that gives me the goosebumps.

and what's with the weaving when out of the saddle. Oh and what's with the ankle position at 5:56....

I do agree with you, but I am sure there are some noncyclists which are good spininstructor...they understand the concept...but what do I say, what concept... and yes there are lots of dangerous things they do on this bikes, but which sport is not dangerous, people have to know they're body...

Resi

aicabsolut
04-15-2008, 03:25 PM
Jump Starts: there's lots of names for this, but it's starting at a high resistance from a total stand still, and then sprinting as hard as you can go. This could potentially be helpful for racers and power riders, but not for your general Spin class. The problem is these indoor bikes aren't designed for this kind of torque, and those crank arms can break. True story: an instructor I know told me of a large guy in class who was powering on his pedals, the crank broke, and it ended up embedded IN his calf.... ugh!:eek: I had a chain break on me one time while in a standing climb and I thank my lucky stars I wasn't injured...imagine doing something high powered like this and "crack"!

;)

I agree with these points, but I wanted to highlight this one.

This is a good drill for racers on a bike outdoors (called standing starts usually). They aren't always done in a huge gear to start, but they often are. And guess what, they often hurt people's knees! Even with all the flex and swaying of the bike laterally under load, it's still hard. Doing this on a spin bike seems pointless. Plus, sprinting on a spin bike is so *easy* compared to sprinting on a road bike. There are other ways to work on power. Even doing a workout at Tempo works on strength with less stress on the joints.

Other peeves I have with some instructors:

Sprinting in reverse. One instructor I've had tells the class to crank up the resistance while standing and *then* sit and sprint. Um, what? No. Start bringing leg speed up while seated. Increase resistance as you increase leg speed to stay stable. Then if this gets tough at the end of the interval, stand and power it out. Or, increase resistance while standing for the final push. This is how you'd sprint in a race, right? The other method is backwards. This helps people actually sprint under resistance and so then more people could benefit from the high cadence work. Ok, yeah, spinning really high cadences with a flywheel generally doesn't do much. But if you can crank out the power (by increasing resistance without stressing joints or slowing down/messing up the pedal stroke), sprint intervals on a spin bike are quite good in improving aerobic recovery time and somewhat improves muscle recovery time. IMO, it can be a better strength builder for the quads than "climbing" on a spin bike. Still, it is not the same as doing intervals on the road bike.

I find "running" to be a good way to work on your pedal stroke. However, it's got to be done right, and really shouldn't be a harder interval like most instructors make it. Rather, it should just be a way to give your butt a break for a minute and working out some kinks. Riding a spin bike seems to be so much more quads-intensive, that standing under lighter resistance (under control with a fast cadence) can be a good way to stretch out and get comfortable. Just like standing periodically on a long ride when not climbing.

I also don't like how instructors will tell you to start a set at 60% of max perceived rate of exertion and then expect you to turn up the resistance a gazillion times yet only wind up at maybe 80% by the end. There are other inconsistencies with what "levels" they want you to be experiencing, and it seems each instructor has his/her own scale. There are other ways to describe where you want the class to be in terms of resistance and HR and effort that makes more sense with the rest of the workout.

Zeek
04-16-2008, 07:53 AM
Other peeves I have with some instructors:

Sprinting in reverse. One instructor I've had tells the class to crank up the resistance while standing and *then* sit and sprint. Um, what? No. Start bringing leg speed up while seated. Increase resistance as you increase leg speed to stay stable. Then if this gets tough at the end of the interval, stand and power it out. Or, increase resistance while standing for the final push. This is how you'd sprint in a race, right? The other method is backwards. This helps people actually sprint under resistance and so then more people could benefit from the high cadence work. Ok, yeah, spinning really high cadences with a flywheel generally doesn't do much. But if you can crank out the power (by increasing resistance without stressing joints or slowing down/messing up the pedal stroke), sprint intervals on a spin bike are quite good in improving aerobic recovery time and somewhat improves muscle recovery time. IMO, it can be a better strength builder for the quads than "climbing" on a spin bike. Still, it is not the same as doing intervals on the road bike.

I find "running" to be a good way to work on your pedal stroke. However, it's got to be done right, and really shouldn't be a harder interval like most instructors make it. Rather, it should just be a way to give your butt a break for a minute and working out some kinks. Riding a spin bike seems to be so much more quads-intensive, that standing under lighter resistance (under control with a fast cadence) can be a good way to stretch out and get comfortable. Just like standing periodically on a long ride when not climbing.

I also don't like how instructors will tell you to start a set at 60% of max perceived rate of exertion and then expect you to turn up the resistance a gazillion times yet only wind up at maybe 80% by the end. There are other inconsistencies with what "levels" they want you to be experiencing, and it seems each instructor has his/her own scale. There are other ways to describe where you want the class to be in terms of resistance and HR and effort that makes more sense with the rest of the workout.

Sounds like you have (unfortunately) been exposed to some crazy instructors. Have you ever thought about becoming certified to teach? Mad Dogg could use more good instructors.

aicabsolut
05-02-2008, 08:10 AM
I've had some good instructors too :) but a few of them drive me batty. I pretty much go in just to have access to a bike in bad weather in a different environment with different tunes, and pretty much do my own thing when the instructions get crazy.

I really wouldn't mind getting certified and teaching part time. My equestrian trainer says I'm a really good teacher when I help her out with lessons. I'm sure I could figure out spinning. I've never seriously looked into what certification would entail, though.

bounceswoosh
05-02-2008, 09:20 AM
I did spin classes for a while at the Y, but stopped. My knees didn't like it; never figured out it if it was the resistance from the wheel, or maybe the angle at which the pedals forced me to clip in.

It does seem like a neat way to work on aerobics over the winter, but now I've discovered indoor soccer, and I find that a lot more fun (no offense to anyone who likes spinning =))

I did kind of like having spin classes that were somewhat tied to a musical selection, but then half the songs I'd be like "this is a dumb song. I could choose such a better set ..."

Zeek
05-05-2008, 09:58 AM
Monique you may have been set up on the bike incorrectly. A correct set up makes a world of difference.

bounceswoosh
05-05-2008, 10:26 AM
I'm sure that's true, since I set it up myself ...

Julibird
05-05-2008, 05:28 PM
I did spin classes for a while at the Y, but stopped. My knees didn't like it; never figured out it if it was the resistance from the wheel, or maybe the angle at which the pedals forced me to clip in.


Other than bike setup, as Zeek suggested, another possible problem I've experienced is when old bikes have crank arms that are warped. Yes, it can and does happen! Those suckers hurt my knees!

Switching to a cleat with a little more float helped too (the shiny SPD - not the one directional kind).

vember
05-10-2008, 10:04 PM
Thanks Jennifer and hello all.

I've been researching and reading as much as possible, taking spin classes and I have a pretty good idea how my body is suppose to be/sit/feel on a road bike but no exp. with a spin bike.

To my surprise, out of all the instructors I had classes with, only a hand full actually road their bike and had my attention the entire class. The bad ones, either hovered over their bike in a standing position and gave instructions or pedaled like a turtle "on drugs" for the duration of the class. Early on, I had my bike set up wrong, yet, they (the bad ones) never said a word or corrected me on my form or technique. Later, corrected by a master trainer at a different club on my bike setup, I was APPALLED that some clubs would keep bad instructor on their payroll. GUESS WHAT? I realized, hiring them as "independent contractors", the HC saves major $$$, but their members get the short end of the stick. I didn't like what I saw (point's you've mentioned) and other member's I spoke too felt the same way about bad instructors. The group fitness coord was the worst of the bunch, yet, she gets a weekly paycheck and does the hiring and firing.:eek:

The problem, anyone with a credit card will be certified thru MDA simply by submitting a payment of $300.++++ and attending a 8-9hr workshop.



Perhaps, but she asked what to do and not to do if her instructor tells her to do something. I believe that if someone is told not to do something, there needs to be justification why not. Maybe for some students who read this, some lightbulbs will go off as a result and they'll change what they're doing - that's a good thing. Maybe they love the "burn" they get from isolations or squats but always wondered whether that pain in the back or knees made it worth the risk.

Also, maybe someone will want to print this out and give it to their instructor if he/she does a lot of contraindicated moves - maybe his/her classes will become safer. If only one instructor or spin student out there benefits from this, then I'm grateful!

Or maybe it's overload...

I'm open to any questions about any of these moves.

Resi
05-13-2008, 05:26 AM
Thanks Jennifer and hello all.

I've been researching and reading as much as possible, taking spin classes and I have a pretty good idea how my body is suppose to be/sit/feel on a road bike but no exp. with a spin bike.

To my surprise, out of all the instructors I had classes with, only a hand full actually road their bike and had my attention the entire class. The bad ones, either hovered over their bike in a standing position and gave instructions or pedaled like a turtle "on drugs" for the duration of the class. Early on, I had my bike set up wrong, yet, they (the bad ones) never said a word or corrected me on my form or technique. Later, corrected by a master trainer at a different club on my bike setup, I was APPALLED that some clubs would keep bad instructor on their payroll. GUESS WHAT? I realized, hiring them as "independent contractors", the HC saves major $$$, but their members get the short end of the stick. I didn't like what I saw (point's you've mentioned) and other member's I spoke too felt the same way about bad instructors. The group fitness coord was the worst of the bunch, yet, she gets a weekly paycheck and does the hiring and firing.:eek:

The problem, anyone with a credit card will be certified thru MDA simply by submitting a payment of $300.++++ and attending a 8-9hr workshop.


I am a road- and mountain biker and I also attend the spin classes since 6 years, but this thread says it all... yes there are not many good instructors...
I had the impression, that I am the only one which speaks up in the gym I go to. Many people talk behind the instructors back how bad the classes are ... why don't they complain, maybe something will change? Like I said before, I have /had a spin instructor friend, I talked about this topic, ha now she does not talk to me anymore... they just don't get it... There are just no certification rule/requirement... so every ... can become a spin instructor...

I hope this will change

Resi

Zeek
05-13-2008, 07:20 AM
I believe as you do. The number of lousy instructors far outweighs the number of good instructors. You are very lucky if you have a good spinning instructor in your area. Again, there are lousy ones around where I am. I am an outdoor cyclist and I spin in the winter months. I became certified because I just couldn't take it any more. I keep my education current, I read read read and I try to be bring the best indoor cycling class that I can, mimicking only the realistic moves on the bike (flat road and climb, in and out of the saddle). Nothing fancy, but challenging and fun (and SAFE). That's all it was ever supposed to be. Others took it to the extreme and ruined it, in many cases.

Dogmama
05-14-2008, 05:38 AM
Years ago, I had an instructor who was strictly Mad Dogg. Used visualization, focus, safe moves, etc. Everybody thought she was really weird.

Now, they have Reaction Cycling (Bally's). One of the most popular instructors has people sprinting hard after a 5 minute warm up. People line up to get in his class.

My point is - as cyclists we know contraindicated moves because we've spent long hours on the bike. The normal exerciser wants to burn as many calories as possible. Most of these people are mid 30's. Maybe they have aches & pains due to bad form, bike fit, etc. but are not aware that they don't have to endure discomfort.

I watch trainers take brand new middle aged exercisers to failure on weight equipment. I just shudder to think what is happening with their tendons & ligaments.

Just like anything else - caveat emptor. Let the buyer beware.

Julibird
05-15-2008, 04:32 AM
Years ago, I had an instructor who was strictly Mad Dogg. Used visualization, focus, safe moves, etc. Everybody thought she was really weird.

Now, they have Reaction Cycling (Bally's). One of the most popular instructors has people sprinting hard after a 5 minute warm up. People line up to get in his class.

Classic. The bottom line for management is "is the room filled - every bike with a person sitting on it?" It's not "Are these classes taught correctly?"

This is as much (or more) to blame for the preponderance of bad teaching as anything. People think that sprinting and suffering after the first 5 minutes means that that is a great class.

That means that many instructors who know better, teach these sort of classes to keep their numbers up and keep their jobs. Can't blame Madd Dog or Johnny G for that.

aicabsolut
05-16-2008, 11:47 AM
In contrast, at the last gym where I actually enjoyed spinning classes, there were 2 very popular instructors (compared to several very unpopular ones).

The first one was a road cyclist and racer. He taught "base training" and endurance workouts in the fall, as much as he could given time constraints. He educated people on building a good fitness base. By the end of the fall, we'd maybe get a few long intervals at 85%--like TT intervals. He would break each set into a range for the less experienced/fit and the more fit. He taught correct form for standing on a spin bike and never ever did jumps or anything you wouldn't do outside. I'd leave his class feeling energized and educated. He really helped me by giving me some advice about getting into road cycling.

The other instructor taught the Johnny G method, even down to those pushup things to kill your triceps. The good thing about his class was that you learned how to push at AT. Lots of interval training helped recovery time. Some of the moves helped develop explosive power. He was also very good about telling newbies to skip a certain interval or how to modify it. Ultimately, though, unless you were trying to be a sprinter, these workouts were very tough on the body. They stressed my joints and every single muscle. Any minor discomfort with bike fit and pedal float and hot spots from the SPDs were magnified over time. It was a little too much at or above AT and really nothing for endurance. That wasn't too bad for most people but on Saturdays he'd teach 2 back to back. I'd usually take both and he'd definitely chill out in the second class. Was it that good for my body? Probably not. I'd leave feeling sore and achy most of the time, more like I'd been lifting weights heavily or done a boot camp class than cycled.

So sure, people like torture, and those who recognize that need to at least make some modifications based on who is in the class for their safety. Newcomers and those with poor form need to be watched closely. That is probably the only reason I trusted instructor #2, because he would really keep an eye on people. At the same time, he'd pick on those who were more fit. Good to be pushed out of one's comfort zone, but sometimes, it seemed like a lot. I think a lot of people don't know the difference between "tough" and careless. I don't think enough instructors are aware about the potential for injury.

My experience with instructor #1 at least made it clear that you can make a popular class based upon good cycling techniques. One day, that guy showed up in full kit because he'd ridden to the gym straight from a ride, and people seemed MORE intimidated by him than by the instructor (#2) who was known to kick your *** in every type of class he taught (he did a lot of stuff). It was like they felt like they weren't hardcore enough to take a class from a cyclist, because they just wanted a good cardio workout, and they were kind of scared. So I guess enough people saw it as a challenge to make it popular even if the workout was basically tempo that day. Those of us who had an interest in road cycling loved it.

Zeek
05-17-2008, 05:56 PM
The other instructor taught the Johnny G method, even down to those pushup things to kill your triceps.
To be clear, this is NOT a Johnny G "method." This is a contraindicated movement in the spinning program that NO certified instructor (who is current in his/her certification) should be practicing.

aicabsolut
05-19-2008, 11:24 AM
Really? I thought I'd seen some old Spinning videos where they do that as part of the warmup. So..I guess they changed the program? Good! (btw, the story about that instructor was from my old gym, around 2006)

Flur
06-24-2008, 08:00 PM
No matter what a gym's "policy" is, there's no guarantee that the instructors have any real certification. I used to be a trainer and yoga instructor at a popular national chain and MOST of the trainers and some of the group instructors did not have certifications. I was seen as a prize to them b/c I came in with an ACE personal training certification and an RYT-500, so I was easy to hire and presented well to management. MOST new hires had no certification and they put them out there teaching and training and had them get proprietary 1-day certifications (with NO contraindication training) so that they could say all the trainers and instructors were certified. Before you take a class, check out the instructor's credentials every time, especially if they're new.

Also, for group classes, the managers all had teaching experience but usually in one area, not all of them, so it made it hard for them to properly evaluate their instructors. My manager used to have me review potential employees' yoga training to tell if I thought it was adequate, but before she took over, the managers were kind of guessing and doing really brief (15 minutes or less) sample classes to see if the instructors "seemed" to know what they were doing. I would imagine this is an issue with niche classes at all clubs.

gleeclub
08-01-2008, 02:37 AM
Hi.

New to the boards here. Interesting and great reading so far regarding spinning.

What's your opinion on doing crunches on the bike(standing run and bending forward with hands in position one)?

Personally, I cant stand doing push-ups or crunches and even though it's only once a week from one of the instructors i take im going to stop doing them.

Also, spinning at a high resistance/low cadence with your hands on your hips or behind your back?

Thanks.

Resi
08-01-2008, 05:41 AM
No matter what a gym's "policy" is, there's no guarantee that the instructors have any real certification. I used to be a trainer and yoga instructor at a popular national chain and MOST of the trainers and some of the group instructors did not have certifications. I was seen as a prize to them b/c I came in with an ACE personal training certification and an RYT-500, so I was easy to hire and presented well to management. MOST new hires had no certification and they put them out there teaching and training and had them get proprietary 1-day certifications (with NO contraindication training) so that they could say all the trainers and instructors were certified. Before you take a class, check out the instructor's credentials every time, especially if they're new.

Also, for group classes, the managers all had teaching experience but usually in one area, not all of them, so it made it hard for them to properly evaluate their instructors. My manager used to have me review potential employees' yoga training to tell if I thought it was adequate, but before she took over, the managers were kind of guessing and doing really brief (15 minutes or less) sample classes to see if the instructors "seemed" to know what they were doing. I would imagine this is an issue with niche classes at all clubs.


I totally agree with you, the quality is just bad bad bad. My gym has pilates, yoga and spinn instructors, well just to say, I don't know how they get the cert...only a weekend workshop and you are a spinn, pilates or yoga instructor...ha I think, I have to stop complaining right now or this message will not end...

Well I guess you get what you pay, I call it fast food in excercise...to bad most people don't know what to look for and they take what theyr gym provides.

I am soooooooo glad that there are more people out there which think like me

Resi

Dogmama
08-02-2008, 04:38 AM
Hi.

New to the boards here. Interesting and great reading so far regarding spinning.

What's your opinion on doing crunches on the bike(standing run and bending forward with hands in position one)?

Personally, I cant stand doing push-ups or crunches and even though it's only once a week from one of the instructors i take im going to stop doing them.

Also, spinning at a high resistance/low cadence with your hands on your hips or behind your back?

Thanks.

Both moves are wrong & potentially dangerous.

kenyonchris
08-02-2008, 10:40 AM
Jeez...third post this morning...what is up with me...I am usually the silent type.

I have done some good, bad, and ugly spin classes myself...and am a spin instructor. I gather the question is not how to teach a spin class, but how to *take* one. As a student, what I find helpful is a class where you don't feel overcoached, and one where you are not left adrift or unmotivated.
Find a class that has good music, quality bikes, and instructors that won't hurt you, then be motivated to get your heart rate up, then recover, then push it up again (be it by increasing resistance or increasing the cadence, or both)...hopefully the instructor will set the enviornment for this, but not demand that you do jumps, be in or out of the saddle, or whatever.

Spinning can be wildly detrimental to your body if you cycle badly, are out of the saddle for longer than you can physically sustain, or you use bad technique with a lot of resistance on the wheel. Let your heart rate tell you that you are working hard enough (or loafing).

One thing I *NEVER* do regardless of teaching or being a student...do NOT do jumps with too little resistance on the wheel or do fast jumps. In fact, the gym where I taught would not let us do them. Too many knee blowouts. I do do slow up downs, but to mid tension and mid tempo time only.

I don't spin much during the good weather when I am riding outside...but when I do, I am picky about the class I take. Hard to relax with hideous music, goofy instructors, and poor equipment. If all that is OK, it is easy to close your eyes, zen out, and get a decent indoor workout.

Natural Beauty
08-02-2008, 03:43 PM
wow, it took me awhile to get through this thread but so good to read! I like spinning class but I had a few really really fantastic instuctors years ago and then unfortunately some poor ones lately.
Like most of you it seems I just do my own thing. I know what my form etc. is supposed to be and I ride to my own beat. I feel bad sometimes because it is obvious that I'm ignoring the instructors for the most part....but maybe that is better than me getting off the bike in the middle of class and shouting "are you kidding me? you want us to do what? why don't I give you my knee now."
:rolleyes:

KerryCrow
08-02-2008, 05:32 PM
[QUOTE=Funhog;303909]I've got a long list for you!! In fact, I am in the middle of writing an e-book on the subject that will be called Keep It Real. I'll be marketing it through www.roadbikerider.com, and on my Spinning blog (http://funhogspins.blogspot.com). (expected completion...end of summer). Of course, I come up with resistance from the instructors who actually think aerobics on an indoor stationary bike that doesn't move is good in the name of "fitness"...
But we cyclists know it isn't!

This was a great post!!! Thank you. I usually feel like an "old grump" in classes when I refuse to do these moves. Many instructors give me the evil eye when I do my own thing. I knew they did not feel right and thank you for confirming my suspicions!!!!!

gleeclub
08-14-2008, 06:40 PM
sorry jen, can you or someone further explain hovers to me? im just not picturing your definition for hovers.

thanks

gleeclub
08-26-2008, 06:18 PM
I have to say that i thought I seen it all, but here's a spin move i saw for the first time.

the spin instructor was in position two then bends over at the waist forming a right angle and then takes her hands and places them behind her back. basically, bent over and balancing herself on the bike.

then when most of the class does not do the move she says something to the effect, it's not that hard to do, just get your butt off the seat.

i couldnt believe what i was seeing and especially hearing.

aicabsolut
09-02-2008, 06:39 AM
Well I thought that ^^^ was odd, but yesterday, I passed 2 cyclists going in the opposite direction. I was bombing down a straight descent, and this one guy coming the other way up the hill was leaning really far forward with his hands flailing out to the side (not on the bars). He was doing some weird balancing thing--outside, up a steep hill. All I could think of was that it looked like some weird spinning maneuver, only applied to the outdoors, IMO dangerously. At least I zoomed by really fast. To his credit, he wasn't swerving all over, but it looked really really really awkward.

firenze11
10-01-2008, 04:05 PM
Urgh! So I guess my spin instructors is one of the ones who does naughty stuff. Yesterday we did freezes and push-ups. As soon as she was like, "ok now we're going to do push-ups" I got a little scared about the rest of the class. I didn't know this was an official no-no until I looked through this thread but my body felt like it was a no-no when I was doing it.

What's the logic behind this? I know, while you're legs are moving at a high rpm, let's throw in some crazy new moves for the top half of your body! That way we can call it a full body workout! :confused::rolleyes:

I know I should just not do them, but it's hard in a class of 30 not to just give in. I don't want to look like a scrooge.

Zen
10-01-2008, 06:49 PM
I know I should just not do them, but it's hard in a class of 30 not to just give in. I don't want to look like a scrooge.

IT'S YOUR RIDE
Just because the instructor is a maroon in a room full of sheep doesn't mean you have to be one too.

firenze11
10-02-2008, 07:31 AM
IT'S YOUR RIDE
Just because the instructor is a maroon in a room full of sheep doesn't mean you have to be one too.

You're right. I don't like being put in unsafe positions by someone that is supposed to be skilled enough to teach the program, especially when I paid for it. And I don't like feeling like the grump of the class either, but my arms are sore right near my elbow after last class so I just need to suck it up and not be a sheep!

Today she wanted us to do fast spinning while standing up, I just put my resistance where I knew it was safe for me and did my own thing.

I know there are amazing spin instructors out there and I'm sure I'd love one of their classes but right now I kinda miss my bike, my trainer, and my Spinervals.

Smilie
10-02-2008, 09:27 AM
Great information! I KNEW some of those moves were wrong, and my body told me so! I am glad I always modified, or just didn't do them. That said...I just started doing a spin class after my Ball class on Tues, Thurs. New teacher, different verbage. Well, she wanted us (all two of us) to do push-ups on the bike...and get this-not TWO armed push ups, but ONE. You lean to the side on one side, then middle then the other side. :eek: WTH?!?

Needless to say, I just said no. I could just see my lower back tweaking from doing those. Pretty ridiculous. Then I see this thread today, making me say HA! My body knows what is right for it!

Thanks for all the info!

tulip
10-02-2008, 11:25 AM
Seems like a dangerous move. You could easily slip and fall off the bike.