Advice please: wage negotiation

[LBTC]

Hi, folks!

Well, I've been waiting awhile and I have finally received an offer for what sounds like a good job.

I'd be working for a man I've worked with before and know that we'd work well together. I'd be doing some of the same work I do now, but getting into a company that needs to redesign its processes to be ready for growth. I'll have a pivotal role in that. Quite exciting!

I've had lunch with my previous co-worker many times over the last 6 months, and have met with his partner twice. They believe I can do the job, as do I. The title is only administrative assistant, so it doesn't sound as important as I think it will be to their growing company.

The company is smaller than where I work, and the benefit plan is paid for 50/50 by company and employees. I still need to find out how much employees pay in and what the plan covers.

I'm nearly certain there is no pension plan.

Currently I have a pretty good pension plan, a fully paid benefits plan that covers a lot and I use quite a bit of it, and 4 weeks of paid vacation.

Their base salary came in 20% below my base salary. They have a profit share which will be anywhere from $500 - $5000 per year, depending on, of course, the profits.

I answered their email with:
Thank you for this interesting offer. The position sounds exciting, and your company appears to be a dynamic and challenging place to work. I believe that I can contribute a lot to the team, and to positioning the systems and processes to be ready for your future growth.

The remuneration you've indicated, even in the most optimistic calculation, is significantly lower than I receive in my current position. This is before comparing the cost and coverage of the benefit plan, pension compensation and vacation structure. I don't imagine that you intend for me to take a step backwards in my career, so would like to know when we should enter into further discussions about the compensation package.

You know that the energy that I'll bring to your team will get the job done, and that we'll work very well together. I look forward to continuing this discussion soon.

This was addressed to my former co-worker, and cc'd to his business partner, since the original offer had been sent to me that way. This evening I have heard from the business partner, with this response:

Our intent is not to have you go backwards and we are sure you would be able to help us define ourselves and the industry we compete in.

We would like to discuss further, and forgive me for being blunt but how far apart are we or where do we need to be?

Clearly we have begun a wage negotiation, but I have never done this before!! :eek:

I know that I need to start high. I know that I need to factor in benefits, pension, vacation time, base salary. I think that number falls between x and y, although I'm not sure exactly where.

Would anyone care to help me figure out a) what I should say in my email response; and b) how much I should ask for? (it seems tacky for me to post actual amounts, but I could PM them if that seems like a good idea and you want to help)

The funniest part of this request is: of everyone I know locally, the person I would ask for this advice is the guy who has offered me the job! :D I think that's cool in its own way.

Thanks in advance!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[Wahine]

Good Luck LBTC. I stink at this sort of thing so I'll completely refrain from giving any sort of advice except to say, don't forget to weigh the "cost" of the stress at a particular workplace. Whether you're talking about your current job or the one you may be entering into.

[tc1]

Well, I have never done individual negotiating before. Or rather, I did and did it very badly. But I can tell you that in my union job, the company will hire temporary employees in the same classification, with no benefits, and pay them 20% above the permanent full time employees. Full time employees get a traditional pension plan, and very good medical benefits at a relatively small cost.

What sounds tempting in your position is to ask for a little piece of the company, shares or some other arrangement.

Women are known to be really bad at this kind of negotiation. Think of what you consider reasonable, then ask for more. That's what men do, I have been told.

[shootingstar]

Are you wanting to leave your current employer because your skills are underutilized?

Not sure about the promises of profit share. I guess I swallow that stuff always with a huge grain of salt.

I have worked for a firm where our individual bonus was contingent on work performance....based on written work goals done 12 months in advance. We (all employees plus managers) were evaluated against written job skills criteria at different advancement/complexity levels. That's fair. But then that was a large firm. It was enough stress but yes, my skill set did ramp up alot..and the firm did also provide some coverage for local and some international conference support. Also provided alot of internal structured employee training programs. Does this new firm provide this form of staff development?

What is the vacation benefit offer? That's important if the job has greater goal setting expectations.

ANd if you don't mind me asking, what industry does this job exist in? As you might know, certain industries are booming in B.C., others are struggling.

[LBTC]

Let's see:

The stresses of the new job are not really known, except that I've worked with the person who would be my boss, and he is very calm, smart and easy to work with, while still providing challenge and being strategically driven.

The stress of the current job isn't bad, but within a few months I'll have to answer to two bosses, the current boss who is very calm and easy to work with plus the crazy childish blaming mean boss I worked for already.

The industry I would be leaving is struggling in Canada, big time. The industry I would be going to is seeing a bit of a lull, but not nearly as bad as the one I'm leaving....at least not yet.

In fact it's bad enough in my industry that I never know when they'll decide to cut more jobs, and, though I think mine is safe, one never knows.

In my 12 years with the company, in 3 locations and several different positions, have been either taken advantage of, or under utilized. Currently I'm in a department that is quiet and all about numbers - and I'd rather be in a fast paced area with more interaction with people, and more presentation type stuff to work on.

I don't know how much vacation they will offer. I think I should ask for the 4 weeks I currently get, but I think I would accept 3 if the rest of the offer is good.

There is opportunity for training in this new job that is industry specific, but will still be interesting.

It's definitely a smaller company and it's been years since I've worked for one of those. In the last few years I've found the beaureucracy of the big company to be really quite a drag.

[shootingstar]

I don't know how much vacation they will offer. I think I should ask for the 4 weeks I currently get, but I think I would accept 3 if the rest of the offer is good.

There is opportunity for training in this new job that is industry specific, but will still be interesting.

It's definitely a smaller company and it's been years since I've worked for one of those. In the last few years I've found the beaureucracy of the big company to be really quite a drag.

Stick to 4 wks. vacation benefit, if your salary in end, will be 20% lower. You will THANK yourself later on. However I don't know if this job offer requires a very different skill set than present one. Oh don't tell me. There's a vague job description. Those can be killers...in the distant future..if you get real good but job spec. doesn't get upgraded and they don't know how to upgrade a job to occupational standard.

As for training, pin it down to a particular course(s) or conference on annual basis as a minimum.

Do they have a well-organized human resources dept...I mean someone who is experienced in HR, manpower planning, staff development, etc. Or is it all on favours/who knows whom?

In the end, it depends how much you want to invest/learn in your job/career and what you plan to do long-term. Do you plan to always be in Vernon?

I always looked at a job from how much new knowledge and skills I could acquire..I mean hard, demonstrable skills and knowledge. This helped me alot..and helped for the periods of overtime with no extra compensation.

[LBTC]

SS - what sort of work do you do?

In my experience, an administrative assistant always has some vagueness in the job description. But there are some specifics, and some strategic things they want my help and expertise with.

Yes, with the information I have today, I plan to retire in Vernon. That's 15-25 years away (holy!), so, obviously, things can change in that time, but we moved here with that in mind, and we haven't had any desire to change that yet.

I doubt there is much of an HR department to this company, so far. I think the VP of Operations is probably it. I'll see what I can find out about that.

I won't budge on the 4 weeks vacation unless the offer comes up 30%. The base, not counting pension and benefits, is 20% lower than I make now, so they need to come up between 25% and 30%.

One thing I'd like to know is - do I use real dollars or percentages when I come back with my counter offer? It's not quite as easy as negotiating on a house, is it?

Thanks for giving me much to think about. I appreciate it!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[Blueberry]

LBTC-

I do quite a bit of negotiating in my line of work:rolleyes:

I think you need to ask for more information from them before you come back with a counter. At a minimum, you need to know for sure on a pension, health insurance costs and vacation. Add any extra cost to what you make now. I'd start with a number 5-10% above that, but let them know you have a little room to move. I would use numbers. I would also play this as you've going to be doing more/be more critical to the company than you currently are - therefore you need to be paid more.

Good luck!!

CA

[SheFly]

I like that you are considering the entire package as part of your negotiation - that is smart. Base salary is only part of the equation.

When I negotiate in these situations, I think about the most important aspects TO ME. for example, vacation is more important to me than base salary, so I will push that over a number. Also, NEVER count on profit-sharing or bonuses. These are a nice BONUS if they happen, but should not be considered as part of your thinking, in case they don't happen for whatever reason.

Also, I would have these conversations verbally vs. via email. While negotiating a new package is difficult (and as women, we are generally very bad at it), it is best done face-to-face.

Just my $0.02, FWIW. Good luck!

SheFly

[Tuckervill]

Perhaps you could consider asking for a guaranteed first year salary that is acceptable to you, in exchange for a greater share of the profits in the future?

Say your old base salary is 50, and they're offering 30, but you could live on 40 for a year, for the chance that the profit share in certain number of years would be virtually guaranteed to be more than 5. After the first year, the salary goes down to the agreed upon one, and you make up the difference in profit share.

This would help you make the transition to lower salary, but with a chance for greater money down the road. This works best when you are paid on performance (sales), but it could work in your situation, too.

Good luck!

Karen

[LBTC]

Thank you for the good ideas and tips. Here is what I have done so far.

My reply this morning was:

Good morning,

I am pleased that we will continue this discussion. :-)

In order for me to make a fair comparison to my current situation, please let me know the types of coverage that are provided in the benefit package, the cost to the employee for that coverage, your pension or RRSP plan, the vacation benefit that you are proposing, and any other items that you intend to include in the compensation package. I'll be interested to see the similarities and differences, and will be able to adjust my salary requirements accordingly.

Thank you in advance,

Yes, I included the smiley face because I am that kind of person. They should know that. :)

I have also sent a query to our benefits department here so that I know how our defined benefit pension plan works - it was introduced a few years ago, and I don't remember the $/year formula; and I have sent a query to my investment guy to see if he can tell me how much more I'd need to invest each year to make up for the loss of said pension.

I'll also do a full printout of my medical benefits so that I'll be able to compare directly.

I am not in a position to take a pay cut at all. DH did just 2 years ago and he's still at only about 70% of what he was making before; and it costs way more to live here - I think our housing costs have doubled. :eek: So, even a few K less per year would be painful. Besides, I've been doing administrative work for 20 years, have lots of variety in my experience, and would be playing quite a strategic role with this company - I think it makes sense for this to be a step forward not backwards. :p

So, now I wait. And soon I will crunch numbers.

If you have any more ideas, thoughts, or plans that I should consider, please let me know!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[vmax]

Several months ago I changed jobs and was actually recruited by the company that I now work for. I did, however, negotiate several items .

Keep in mind that most things are negotiable -- I actually believe that everything is negotiable (also depends on the position) and it never ever hurts to negotiate. Remember, the worst you can be told is "No" but at least you asked or negotiated something that you can live with. Also, it's much better to have all the information/numbers in front of you prior to making a final decision.

For the new position that I'm now in, I did a spreadsheet (it was very easy to put together) and compared all the benefits (medical, dental, pension, etc.) and salary although I did get a subtantial increase in salary by just changing companies. For healthcare, I compared my out of pocket cost with what the company was putting in. I'm divorced and responsible for my son's health care costs as well. For me, its very important to have good coverage and, without it, you could end up with a huge medical bill. I also compared pension plans which is a very important item. I tried to distance myself from making any decision, even though the new position looked attractive, to keep me focused on the whole picture.

In terms of vacation, for me, my salary pays the bills and that is what future raises are based on so I'd rather start with a good salary and go up from there. Certainly find out what you will start out with (for vacation) and ask if that will increase at any time, given length of employment, etc. What is the plan for future raises, compensation, etc.?

Bonuses are gravy so don't count on it until its "in the bank". If this is a new company, it could be a while before you see some healthy bonus checks.

In terms of negotiating salary, I've always provided potential employers with a "healthy" range and I shoot high, given what I know of the market in that profession. You need to ask for a salary that is in line with the market so you may want to check that out beforehand. Pricing yourself out of the position is never a good option -- its better to be open to future raises.

Opportunities for growth with the company -- if you are interested in staying there a while ask about other potential opportunities that may come up, so they know you are interested in taking on a new role/responsibilities.

Personally, I feel that it is important to look at all the pieces of a new position and salary is only one item, although it is important.

Good Luck with your deicision,

- Vivian, MN

[LBTC]

Thanks for the ideas, V! A spreadsheet! Of course! :D That was exactly my plan. I'll run a few what-if scenarios at different salary amounts, considering all of the other quantifiable aspects, and will figure out my bottom line and my asking - probably between 5% and 10% above my bottome line.

I know that there is a benefits package that is part funded by the employees, so I've asked for details to try to compare to my fully funded plan. I know which parts of the plan I use a lot, and which I would not feel safe without, and there are others that have a value, but I could maybe go without. I don't think there is a pension plan, so I will need to gain more salary to invest for my retirement. Vacation time *is* important to me, but I can understand a slight decrease if I know when it will increase again.

It's a small but well established company that is in the midst of a growth spurt that is likely to lead it to be a larger company. Part of the reason for the restructuring is to make it easier for growth to happen, and part of the need for someone like me is to improve their systems and processes to make growth easier; and to manage the new tools involved in that (web based database, and the like). They have already indicated room for advancement within the company. I know that I'm at the high end of what administrative assistants make, but the management of technology and the strategic influence in the marketing and reporting increases my value beyond the average admin anyway.

These guys are kind of wheeler dealers, so I know that we'll be bargaining and I need to come in at a higher value than I"m willing to take.

I'll keep you posted!
Thanks!
~T~

[blueskies]

Part of the reason for the restructuring is to make it easier for growth to happen, and part of the need for someone like me is to improve their systems and processes to make growth easier; and to manage the new tools involved in that (web based database, and the like). They have already indicated room for advancement within the company. I know that I'm at the high end of what administrative assistants make, but the management of technology and the strategic influence in the marketing and reporting increases my value beyond the average admin anyway.



You might also consider looking at other terms, beyond administrative assistant, to use when discussing this job... sounds like you might have grown beyond that as a job title.

[Mr. Bloom]

I am not in a position to take a pay cut at all. DH did just 2 years ago and he's still at only about 70% of what he was making before; and it costs way more to live here - I think our housing costs have doubled.

If this is true...I wouldn't ponder the move unless you have some motivating factor (like running away from something bad, for instance).

Here's why:

it's rare that smaller companies can match the aggregate compensation package of large ones; people tend to work for small companies for other reasons
there's more risk in small companies (although I don't recall your current industy...)
if they're calling it an AA position, but describing something else...well, it just doesn't sound right...AA's don't redesign processes, they type the new process up for the folks who design it. (Don't get me wrong, I have four AA's and they're integral, but in my view, they're not strategic in their focus...but an outstanding AA is worth their weight in gold but rarely gets the credit they're due)
benefits are often way underestimated as to their real value...and the long term value of a pension plan is huge, even if distant...


Sounds like you're doing a great job at negotiating in a constructive way, and I hope it works out. But, I think once you complete this worksheet, it's going to say "stay"...

Good Luck


You might also consider looking at other terms, beyond administrative assistant, to use when discussing this job... sounds like you might have grown beyond that as a job title.
I just read this...and there's a lot of merit to what blueskies is saying...

[Running Mommy]

Funny, I was reading down the replies thinking... "where is mr. silver, this is the perfect thread for him"....:p
And low and behold, he had chimed in. I agree w/him. If you can't take the risk of a potential pay cut, I would stay.

[Mr. Bloom]

Funny, I was reading down the replies thinking... "where is mr. silver, this is the perfect thread for him"....:p
And low and behold, he had chimed in. I agree w/him. If you can't take the risk of a potential pay cut, I would stay.

Thanks for thinking of me:D I've been swamped and mentally fragged beyond measure lately...so I've been scarce...

[LBTC]

Thank you, Mr. S, I was hoping to hear from you! :)

Initially, the reason I wanted to leave: horrible boss. That has changed so that I currently have a good boss, but by June I will be working for both of them. Yuk. One of the partners at the new firm, which is a small local office, but has many people placed throughout Canada and the US, is a guy I used to work with. I know I can work for him.

Have you heard of the Canadian Forest Industry? That's what this larger company I work for is in. I'm seeing a few signs that there could be more "right sizing" coming. :eek: Frightening, but I've been with the company for 12 years, so they've got to pony up bucks if they drop the hammer. Also, I've been on a great pension plan for 10 of those 12 years - they changed it 2 years back - so the pension is important, but it's not as critical as it might be for some.

The way I see it, I'll ask for their numbers, compare them to my numbers, have an in person meeting with them as soon as possible, and give them my counter offer. I'll see the reaction then and we'll see if we can settle.

I really like the idea of changing the job title. Any suggestions?

Add to all this that my grandmother passed away a couple of hours ago. A whole new thing to deal with all at the same time. That's life, right?

Thanks for all of your ideas and thoughts. Let me know if there's more you can tell me.

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[shootingstar]

SS - what sort of work do you do?

In my experience, an administrative assistant always has some vagueness in the job description. But there are some specifics, and some strategic things they want my help and expertise with.

Yes, with the information I have today, I plan to retire in Vernon. That's 15-25 years away (holy!), so, obviously, things can change in that time, but we moved here with that in mind, and we haven't had any desire to change that yet.

I'm sorry about your grandmother's death.

In this particular job, I am a document control manager. My job requires planning, hands-on database design, taxonomy design, working with dept. heads to develop and implement project-wide best practices and quality procedures for document workflow and document/records management. Job includes developing and delivering computer-based group training regularily. Our business controls must meet specific project contractual needs for records retention. Job requires interpreting and implementing practices that meet legislative requirements at federal and provincial level.

By the end of next year, have forecasted over 100,000 different documents (electronic & originals). All of this acquired within a 3-yr. period. System is deployed for 150 employees over 6 different locations. (There are nearly 300 employed, but not all want to darken an office doorway.). Some of these locations are work trailers..out in muddy fields...I have to make site visits to all. I do manage /supervise and evaluate other staff.

In the engineering sector, document management systems are audited to met ISO QA standards. Have in the past, audited other departments, which were libraries.

My formal training and other career experience is as a librarian. You'll find us in: knowledge management, content management, document/records management, competitive intelligence....plus your so-called "libraries".

Hope you make a meaningful decision for yourself. As for the stability of a job, nothing is forever these days. Not even in govn't...one could easily be shifted somewhere else. I don't hang my hat on a company pension..but as long as the pension can be vested and is portable, if one leaves.

Forest industry in B.C. has seen some big changes in past decade. Not easy... But then the mining industry that seems to be bouncing not too badly, might fall on its nose later...as it did for quite awhile.

[Deborajen]

I really like the idea of changing the job title. Any suggestions?


What would the job title be if it were a male employee? Titles are important to men - or at least they definitely have been everywhere I've worked. Get away from the word "assistant." Maybe "analyst," "specialist," or even "technician" emphasizes skill and expertise. Watered down titles encourage lower compensation, and they're dead weight on a resume.

Deb

[Grog]

Manager
Expert
Analyst
Coordinator
Director

Good luck LBTC. I agree that you have earned to graduate above the eternal AA.

[tulip]

I agree, Administrative Assistant will not serve you well for future positions, plus it sounds like you are way past that.

Strategist or Analyst come to mind, knowing the very tiny bit I do about the position.

When I lived in France (different work culture), I could have gotten an admin asst or secretarial position easily, but I was way overqualified (several graduate degrees, but none from a French university:mad:). It would have been a good start in the US, to get a foothold in a new country and learn alot and work my way into a position that I was qualified for. But in France, once you have that title, that's what you'll be tagged with. It's a different work culture there, of course, which is one reason I came back to North America.

[SheFly]

LBTC - so sorry to hear about your grandmother. Make sure that you take care of yourself during this time.

You've had some great advice hear. In terms of alternate titles, what about something like Project Coordinator/Manager? If you really are going to be doing a lot of process definition (I do this too, and I am a Global Program Manager for a large high-tech company), what about Process Coordinator or Manager?

Good luck to you in whatever you decide to do! Remember that you have to look out for yourself above all else, even in the negotiations.

SheFly

[LBTC]

Thank you everyone! I have not heard back about the value of the rest of their compensation proposal yet, nor have I heard back about the value of my current pension. I am taking this time to try to strategize the next meeting, which I believe should be in person. This will be a new thing for me - ask for what I want in person, and ask for it because I'm worth it. Should be interesting.

I really like the idea of changing the title. DH has incorporated some other suggestions and feels I should ask for this:
Super Process Documentation Administration Coordination Queen

:D:o:rolleyes:
I guess he left out sexy to be more professional. heehee

Yes, having a giggle is still important. I'll keep you all posted if anything new happens. Please keep those ideas coming if you have any more!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[KSH]

Hey LBTC, sorry to hear about your Grandmother's death. How very sad.

A new job prospect is very exciting.

Well, I guess I'm just too simple... I first look at the salary. If the salary is MORE than what I'm making, I then look at the benefits. If the benefits are very close to my current job... I go for it. But most of my jobs have been pretty much the same in the areas of benefits, so there wasn't a whole lot to haggle there.

As for salary negotiation, I just give a number that is 10%+ more than what I'm currently making. Bam. It's done.

[boy in a kilt]

Unfortunately, I've had to do my fair share of salary negotiations in the past few years and I'm hoping to start a new set in the next week or two. The subject has already come up in the current round of interviews I'm doing.

I've found it's best to have a good range. The lowest number I'll provide is the lowest salary I would take plus about 10%. The high end of the range tells me something about their expectations. If they offer me the upper end of my range, that's a sign their expectations may exceed my ability to meet them and we need to revisit the job description.

Here's something to consider. Ask for periodic reviews and potential compensation increases based on the results of your review. If it's truly an environment where you are happy and productive, it'll show in your work and the reviews provide a good forum to discuss your true worth to the company.

BTW, the job I'm interviewing for right now doesn't really have a title per se. The president kept referring to me as the "Tech Dude."

[Mr. Bloom]

Initially, the reason I wanted to leave: horrible boss. That has changed so that I currently have a good boss, but by June I will be working for both of them. Yuk.

That's motivation. I've adhered to a simple rule in 23 years of work. My priorities to professional happiness are in this order:
1) Who I work for - do I respect & trust them, can I follow them
2) Who I work with - can we work well together, enjoy our environment, be a team
3) What I do - is it enjoyable, challenging, etc

There's 20 other things that are important to me (money included), but I find if these three things are in place, everything else will follow.

Maybe this is why I've only had three different employers in 23 years... I actually got fired from my last job because I refused to sign a non-compete agreement...why? because I didn't trust the guys I worked for and refused to be permanently yoked to them...

Follow your heart and your gut...you'll make the right choice

[Mr. Bloom]

Did anything happen?

[LBTC]

Thanks for checking in Mr. Silver.

Last Tuesday I picked up their benefits brochure and compared their package to mine, and talked with an accountant I know to try to value the pension plan I would be leaving behind. I calculated a high figure to factor in everything, a low figure to cover base wages and out of pocket which would allow the bonus to try to make up the difference, and a few levels in between.

On Thursday I emailed my contact, requesting an in-person meeting so we could discuss the offer. I didn't give any numbers in my email as I think this is better done in person. I have not received a response yet. I know they have a lot of travel going on, so I'm attributing the lack of response to that.

While I think this is a good opportunity in many ways, it is not vital and necessary at this point for me to move to another job. If they want me, we'll figure out something that works for all parties.

Thank you for your excellent counsel on the subject. I'm still hopeful!

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[LBTC]

I just heard from him by email. Looks like we can set up a meeting some time next week, when both partners are in town. Hey, at least he didn't tell me to go away. :)

H&B
~T~

[Mr. Bloom]

While I think this is a good opportunity in many ways, it is not vital and necessary at this point for me to move to another job. If they want me, we'll figure out something that works for all parties.


With this in mind, you can't go wrong:)