Loner Manners?

[blondiebiker]

I ride alone most of the time, but I'm very competitive, so whenever I have a guy pass me, I get motivated and start riding behind (usually about 6 feet back) him for as long as I can. Usually they don't seem to mind, but I had an encounter yesterday that made me wonder if this is considered rude...

[tulip]

I'd say that if you catch a wheel and draft real close, some folks might not like that. But staying a bit back, well I see no problem with that. It's a good way to work in some fast pace riding.

Alternately, you could try to ask them if you could ride with them. Of course, you might not want to!

[Geonz]

How would you feel about somebody doing the same thing to you?

This is just my opinion and worth what you paid for it, but I would feel that my space had been invaded. If you're close enough to benefit from my draft, then you're close enough so that I feel obligated to ride so you don't collide with me, especially since i have no idea what your skill level is. I would probably do my darndest to drop you, or slow 'way down. And I'm a loner too - when I go out for a ride, often it's to be by myself.

[MM_QFC!]

I prefer to be asked, when someone wants to draft me; I think it's good etiquette so that I can choose whether I want another's company, and/or the responsibility of someone drafting me too. I've done a well-known dbl century ride a number of times and anytime I sensed a hanger-on back there, it was a guy...a couple of times I slowed and waved them around me because it annoyed me that they didn't even ask! One guy pulled alongside me at a stoplight and said, "I just needed a rest so it was great to have you pull me for a while " (we were in the last 30 or so miles of the 200) and he neither asked me, nor thanked me...just kinda rude!:mad:
When I train with either 1 riding buddy or several, then we are clear in wanting to keep to how we've trained, so we usually decline others requests to 'latch on'...just messes up the rhythm, communication, etc that we've built together, so it's nothing personal and it should be OK for anyone to either agree or not to a request, but IMHO, the request should be made.
I think that the same rules apply as if you wanted to join a paceline too; just a considerate request - doesn't have to be anything fancy or that you have to waste time figuring out how to word it or anything. I realize that I've developed some clear opinions as I've seen all too many riders, who have no idea how to paceline, just jump on the end of one and cause crashes or they don't know the signals, strategy or the first thing in how it all works...they just put their heads down and pedal hard without being alert to all of the things that require skill, practice and/or concentration...and I've had friends who've been taken out by those yahoos blowing through, and ending their weekend ride adventure, by literally being edged off the road, crashing and getting hurt, while the paceline keeps going; one or maybe a few (or none usually) screaming 'on your left', as if everyone else who's on the road should immediately jump off their bikes, clear off the road, and get out of their way...yeah, right:mad:
Just my $.02...

[Geonz]

That said, sometimes there *is* almost telepathy... I never asked this guy (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=6313&highlight=drafting+story)permission, but since I passed his group and he peeled off the front, and we thanked each other at the end...

[ttaylor508]

I have been on both sides of this situation. I have been passed and then paced the rider that passed me, usually staying back 10+ feet because I don't want to benefit off their draft as I am out there for a workout, not to draft. I am not pacing them to annoy them, usually it is simply the fact that we are going the same speed. Many times after they pass, they cannot maintain their speed, so then it leaves me in the situation of either passing them back or slowing down. I have also had riders pace or draft off me, which I really don't mind as long as they let me know they are back there so I can signal any hazards in the road. So, even if you stay 6 feet back, you might let them know you are there so they don't make any abrupt moves that could endanger both of you. Even though 6 feet might seem like plenty of room, some people might feel like you are drafting.

[MM_QFC!]

Same here and, to your point, I've done the leap frog thing quite often too, with those riding at a similar pace on a local loop or an event ride, given the stopping at rest stops, etc...and it always seems as though there are riders who blast past, but can't sustain the lead either on a hill or for the long haul...it's best to give each other space unless otherwise is mutually agreed upon, I think.

[HillSlugger]

During my ride on Saturday a guy came up behind me (startled me!) and then chatted with me and/or hung behind me without ever passing. I kept wondering if he liked the view, didn't feel like passing, or couldn't pass me. I didn't mind him behind me except that I kept wondering where he was and when he'd actually pass.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I would find it unsettling and creepy if a stranger started following me 6 feet behind while I was biking, and did not greet me and ask if it was ok. There are a lot of scary people out there these days, both male and female.

[wackyjacky1]

That said, sometimes there *is* almost telepathy... I never asked this guy (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=6313&highlight=drafting+story)permission, but since I passed his group and he peeled off the front, and we thanked each other at the end...
OMG, that was...AWESOME!!! :D ;)

[Jolt]

I would find it unsettling and creepy if a stranger started following me 6 feet behind while I was biking, and did not greet me and ask if it was ok. There are a lot of scary people out there these days, both male and female.

My thoughts exactly! I would be very unnerved by that. In fact, I don't even like it when I'm walking down a busy street (like in Boston, for example) and there's somebody who happens to be walking at the same pace I am and ends up walking behind/near me for a long stretch. The weird thing there is that it's doubtful they're doing it on purpose, there are lots of other people around so there's not really a reason to feel unsafe, but it still bugs me (and maybe I'm just weird that way)!

[MM_QFC!]

I would find it unsettling and creepy if a stranger started following me 6 feet behind while I was biking, and did not greet me and ask if it was ok. There are a lot of scary people out there these days, both male and female.

Right on the money, as usual, Lisa! There's a difference between friendly leap-frogging or coincidental pacing on a ride, but that silent stalker stuff doesn't fly w/me.

[tulip]

Don't forget that when you're the passer, please SAY SOMETHING to let the passee know you're there. Otherwise the passee might swerve around a pothole or something and not know you're there and wham, down you both go.

[singletrackmind]

Yer not s'posed to hang onto 'em, yer s'posed to lose 'em. Hard. Or die trying.
Cause if yer goin' for the chase you gotta make the kill.



(and then pull over for some fictional reason and hold it....hold it....hold it....ok, he's gone...keel over from lack of oxygen)

[KnottedYet]

If you want to pace, hang back 20 feet or so. If you want to draft, ask first. And don't be surprised if someone says "no." Being drafted by an unknown rider is a hazard not everyone wants to take on.

[MM_QFC!]

If someone was 6 feet off my butt without permission, whether they thought they were being cute or not, I would be very pissed. Pulling stuff like that is not only rude, it is dangerous!

If you want to pace, hang back 20 feet or so. If you want to draft, ask first. And don't be surprised if someone says "no." Being drafted by an unknown rider is a hazard not everyone wants to take on.

I've had numb-nuts draft off my heinie without asking. I throw a temper tantrum. (and if they don't know enough to ask if they can be that close, I have to assume they also have no clue what my cues and signals mean, either. Thereby making me believe they are EXTREMELY dangerous to have on my tail.)

well-said, Knott..it IS dangerous.

[KnottedYet]

I'm in a bad mood, sorry if I sounded harsh there. :o

[RolliePollie]

I get really annoyed if someone drafts off of me without asking. I am not a very experienced rider and it makes me a nervous wreck to have someone back there. On that same note, I would never draft off of a stranger because I'd feel like I was putting us both at risk.

There was recently a serious head-on colision on our local bike trail and three riders went to the hospital, all with broken bones and one with abdominal trauma. I'm not 100% sure of the exact circumstances, but evidently one rider swerved, causing the rider drafting behind her to crash into oncoming bike traffic. I have no idea if these people were drafting with or without permission from one another. But if it was anonymous-not-asking-first stranger-drafting, then I bet everyone was pretty angry.

I would much rather have a stranger ask me than to just have someone attach themself to my back wheel. Then I could tell them that they're taking their life into their own hands if they want to risk riding behind me.

[Trek420]

Yer not s'posed to hang onto 'em, yer s'posed to lose 'em. Hard. Or die trying.
Cause if yer goin' for the chase you gotta make the kill.



(and then pull over for some fictional reason and hold it....hold it....hold it....ok, he's gone...keel over from lack of oxygen)

I agree. I don't race, I'm not fast, I suck at climbing. Yet I do have a competitive streak in me. When on my road bike I assume I should be able to to catch and pass any mountain bike. Not true yet if they look never like not such good form or cadence, or newer or road or mountain the chase is on. :D

Especially if they are guys, even more if they are younger, best if they are on road bikes .... so on.

Often I can't pass them or even reel 'em in but the sprint and effort is worth it. :)

But I don't get close unless I can to pass. If there's nothing left in the tank it does not matter. If I can't pass or it's not safe to do so why bother. and you never know, some riders are not familiar with signals and your cheery "on your left :)" can be interpreted as "you must do an immediate sharp left :eek:"

I've seen it happen. :rolleyes: So back off, I hardly know you :p :cool:

The one time I chased a guy down and was not going to let him get away was on a training season opener for ALC. A rider nearly caused a horrific crash when our route crossed the course of the "Escape from Alcatraz" Triathlon :eek: and he crossed the street smack dab in front of a racer.

If you're lurking and were descending I can't get your screamed "noooooooooooo!" outta my head. Glad you are ok, nice handling skills :)

He was on a new carbon race bike, I on my tank of a commuter. Once we were clear to cross the street safely without racers on a closed course with an only in San Francisco style steep hill flying towards us :eek: I set off and chased him up the same hill. I was determined.

When I caught up I motioned him over. Once I could breath and calmed down I gave him a stern lecture. A new rider he did not know bikes can go 60-70, he'd never heard the term "closed course" and thought the racers had a stoplight :rolleyes:, he just didn't know.

Another rider rolled up introduced us and told him I'm an experienced ALC'er. Then with my permission he rode with me. When we returned he said he'd just been doing everything I did; if i shifted he shifted, if I signaled he did ... but I knew he was there, and knew he was new. ;)

[MM_QFC!]

I know that it's the person in the rear who would go down, if tires touched, but I figure that it's OK to expect some semblance of manners on the road and a stranger presents unknown dangers. Also, I have enough to do in dealing with those who fancy themselves 'elites' or above silly voice warnings or turn signals and blow past me w/o any notice; then there are the variety of users on the multi-use trails that I've called out to and am trying to negotiate my way around wayward roller bladers, chatting strollers walking 3 across who MOVE LEFT when I call out 'on your left', young children on bikes who ride the entire breadth of the trail, etc...as well as those coming in my direction - lots to think of already, so I am not concerned with waving some selfish and silent wheel sucker off or hurting their feelings. I know of an experienced rider's death from head injuries when an inexperienced rider lost control of their bike and hit him, sending him into an endo and suffering fatal injuries...those things stick with me and I won't apologize to anyone for trying to keep myself safe and alive...

[MM_QFC!]

good points and story, Trek...I remember offering to take a newbie who was training for an AIDS ride in Montana out for one of his first rides EVER - never mind first ride of the season. We rolled along a local trail and then I took him off it to get in some back roads...of course I was using signals, pointing out hazards, and chatting too...after we went over some really rough railroad tracks, (so, after my R/R tracks arm signals), he called out to me, and I slowed for him to pull alongside...and he said, "what the h*ll are you doing? are you giving me signals or something? I have no idea what anything means!"...That was just the kick I needed to be reminded to not assume anything...always kind of review 'ground rules', so to speak, before a ride - even with 1 other person - as I thought he had some more experience than that...oh well, can always learn to communicate better!

[KnottedYet]

I'm a b*tch and not ashamed to screech "On your RIGHT, Thank YOU!!" at the poseur weekend racer-boys who pass me without using bell or voice.

And it's almost always poseurs who pass without notice. Not seasoned Freds/Fredwinas on beloved battered steeds. Not women. Not team guys in full kit. (actually, the best groups that pass me are the Recycled Cycles team men, whose leader hollers out that they are passing and how many are in his group. I love him/them.)

Communicate with the riders near you, whatever you are doing. Drafting, passing, wanting to chat, wanting to race, wanting to ask for a date. If they know what you are up to they won't waste precious resources or time trying to figure out what game you are playing, and they can respond to you.

[Trek420]

I know that it's the person in the rear who would go down, if tires touched

Yeah, a family friend died that way. Experienced riders, all knew what to do, what to do if the wheels touch (don't just bounce away, ride together and slooooowly separate the wheels), all wearing helmets ... their wheels touched on a descent, he fell and hit his head on just the wrong spot. 8-(

And when did people stop learning hand signals? :confused: Sure it's still on the drivers test but if you're under 30 you don't just know what they mean :cool: ;)

[OakLeaf]

+1 to not drafting without permission. Heck, if I've taken a break, got a phone call, gotten dropped whatever, when I catch back up to the group I was with I will always yell "On your wheel!"

Sara, that's an example of why pacelines belong on the road and not multi-use trails. Yes, things can happen anywhere, but fast riders in a group where only one of them can see ahead, don't belong on a narrow path where the safe speed is 10 mph or less, and traffic is undisciplined, uneducated and multidirectional.

MM_, I've been riding for a long time and I didn't know there was a hand signal for tracks! Everyone I've always been with just yells "Tracks!" What is the signal???

[uforgot]

I'm with Lisa on this one. I ride alone, but rarely encounter another biker. Just not many around here, so no one ever passes me. I'm not sure about cycling etiquette, but if I DID pass someone and they then made an effort to stay up with me... I absolutely would not like it. Enough so that I would turn around, stop or take another route. Doesn't matter if it's on foot, bike car, etc. I tend to be a loner anyway, and my space would definitely be invaded. I realize not everyone has to have as much space as I do, but if you don't know the person, then you have no idea whether it bothers them or not. Also, why do you always feel the need to be competitive? Can't you just relax and enjoy the ride?

And Knotted...harsh? You? You have to be one of the most even-tempered, positive members of this forum! You're everyone's cheerleader! :D

[Geonz]

OMG, that was...AWESOME!!! :D ;)

Yea, I'd forgotten about it 'til this thread :D:D

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I'm a b*tch and not ashamed to screech "On your RIGHT, Thank YOU!!" at the poseur weekend racer-boys who pass me without using bell or voice.

I like to holler out after them: "Thanks for the heart attack!" :cool: :D

[firenze11]

I'm really thankful for this thread because I'm so new at this and haven't ever encountered anyone on the road yet. Reading all of your stories and insights helps me become a better cyclist. I've rarely even come across cars on my roads but I always practice hand signaling - even if there isn't anyone else around to see them. Should I come across another cyclist one day and have to pass him/her I'll make my presence known and give them their space

I know I would be freaked out if someone was drafting me without asking.

MM_QFC I'm curious as well, what is the signal for railroad tracks? I tried looking it up online but couldn't find it.

[ttaylor508]

here is a list of hand signals including the one for railroad tracks

http://www.inlandempirecycling.com/Cycling/hand_signals.htm

Just to be safe, I use both hand signals and voice.

[Trek420]

I wanna say it's feeling a little like we're piling on the threadstart'er blondiebiker and that's not the intent. It's not wrong, it's good to be competitive, it's good to sprint, it's especially fun to catch up with guys .... just be safe :)

[firenze11]

here is a list of hand signals including the one for railroad tracks

http://www.inlandempirecycling.com/Cycling/hand_signals.htm

Just to be safe, I use both hand signals and voice.

Excellent! :) Thank you. My google skills must be slipping.

[MM_QFC!]

Excellent! :) Thank you. My google skills must be slipping.

Thanks from me too, for posting that. And yeah, I use voice more than anything, but signals and pointing always help anyone I'm riding with, know what I'm about to do.

Obviously some opinions out here, so thanks for the thread, blondiebiker!

[Aggie_Ama]

I cannot stand an uninvited wheel sucker. Seriously, it drives me crazy and if they do not say hello I will do everything in my power to drop them. If you introduce yourself or ask if it is okay, I have a new friend. Personally I have trouble sensing what is going on behind me and it makes me nervous.

I don't want this to sound like an attack on Blondie, because it is just something that makes me uneasy. Many people will offer the help (I get a lot of "Hop on for a pull") or acknowledge you, if not I back off.

Knott- My husband does that and it drives me nuts! He waits until he is beside people and then says hello, after he has probably scared the beejeezus out of them. :rolleyes:

[KSH]

During my ride on Saturday a guy came up behind me (startled me!) and then chatted with me and/or hung behind me without ever passing. I kept wondering if he liked the view, didn't feel like passing, or couldn't pass me. I didn't mind him behind me except that I kept wondering where he was and when he'd actually pass.

Yea, I have had random people do this to me in bike rallies or on a bike path.

It makes me nervous to have someone so close behind me. They need to pass or just fall back. One of the two.

In one bike rally I had a guy drafting about 2 inches off my back tire for a good few miles. I didn't know his skill set and he didn't know mine. He was really trusting me. I personally got sick of it and just turned around and asked him to please go around as he was making me nervous. He did.

[KSH]

I wanna say it's feeling a little like we're piling on the threadstart'er blondiebiker and that's not the intent. It's not wrong, it's good to be competitive, it's good to sprint, it's especially fun to catch up with guys .... just be safe :)

Oh yea it's fun. But the key is that you catch up to them... and pass them. That's even more fun than hanging on their back tire.

And if you want to see a guy ride faster... pass him. :)

[NoNo]

Since I usually ride alone and I'm still relatively new to road biking, could someone tell me just how close you can be to be considered drafting? I don't think I've ever done it, as I've never thought "Boy, it sure feels easier to pedal now!" so I'd like to have some idea to make sure I don't unknowingly annoy someone. However, I seem to feel differently than most of the opinions I'm seeing here. Living near the shore, I pass and am passed regularly as there's a lot of people out and about enjoying the scenery. If you happen to be going the same speed or am going the same route, knock yourself out, doesn't really bother me. I actually feel better if they don't pass because it makes me think they can't get ahead of me and stay there:p

[SlowButSteady]

Count me as someone who rides so d@mn slow I've never noticed what it feels like to draft, either.

I've been on a couple of organized rides where some grouchy cyclists yelled at me for not loudly announcing my presence with a hearty "on your left" before passing them.

I, too, usually ride alone and am not really "up" on my group etiquette.

:confused: If your usually ride alone, how are you supposed to learn this stuff, by osmosis?

Having a bunch of bike-club folks act generally snobby & unfriendly to me doesn't exactly make you want to go out and join a club, either.

...in which case I still don't learn.

[uforgot]

I wanna say it's feeling a little like we're piling on the threadstart'er blondiebiker and that's not the intent. It's not wrong, it's good to be competitive, it's good to sprint, it's especially fun to catch up with guys .... just be safe :)

Oops, I guess I'm guilty of piling on. Sorry blondie! I guess it just never crossed my mind to try to catch up with anyone who passes me on a bike or car. I'm definitely not competitive, and diversity is good, but I also wanted to let blondiebiker know (and she did ask!) that not everyone is comfortable with someone paying so much attention to them.

[Grog]

Since I usually ride alone and I'm still relatively new to road biking, could someone tell me just how close you can be to be considered drafting? I don't think I've ever done it, as I've never thought "Boy, it sure feels easier to pedal now!" so I'd like to have some idea to make sure I don't unknowingly annoy someone. However, I seem to feel differently than most of the opinions I'm seeing here. Living near the shore, I pass and am passed regularly as there's a lot of people out and about enjoying the scenery. If you happen to be going the same speed or am going the same route, knock yourself out, doesn't really bother me. I actually feel better if they don't pass because it makes me think they can't get ahead of me and stay there:p

When you are less than one-bike length behind someone, you are clearly "in the draft" although of course the effect will be much stronger if you're 10 centimeters (3 inches) away from the person's wheel than if you're a whole meter (3 feet) away. Within a two-bike distance there is some effect as well, and I don't like to have someone I don't know riding so close to me without permission unless it's a very busy segment of road and everyone is riding very slow.

When, in a headwind, I start dropping further than a three-bike length (approx 6 meters?) away from my husband, I know that it will be really hard to catch his wheel again unless he slows down... :o

[Eden]

Ah, but there is drafting and then there is personal space..... you can be not really drafting, but still in somones personal space. If the rider ahead is nervous then 10 feet may not be enough for them.

Just if you are on a busy MUT (multi use trail) do have some expectations that you will have someone following you at times.... I know that I always WAIT until there is a safe place with good visibility to pass, and that does mean that I end up behind people at times.

[singletrackmind]

:confused: If your usually ride alone, how are you supposed to learn this stuff, by osmosis?

Having a bunch of bike-club folks act generally snobby & unfriendly to me doesn't exactly make you want to go out and join a club, either.

...in which case I still don't learn.

Threads like this are good for getting a feel for what bikers feel....too bad a reprimand is someone's solution for telling you what they want, imagine if that's how teachers taught our children! Awful!

I usually say 'hello' from as far back as someone might be able to hear soft-spoken me and they generally acknowledge with either a move or verbally. I know a lot of people like 'on your left' but when on a bike path
half the time when I say that the target...er....person....moves left. :eek:

Well, don't worry about the Mr. Gruffpantses, we all make mistakes even after we think we've learned what we need to know. At least you're trying! 'Fore you know it, you'll be helping others learn bike etiquette, though I'll bet in a much kinder manner.:)

[spokewench]

I've been watching this thread for quite a while and I'm sorry, but I just don't really get it. Drafting is a part of this sport - I will usually say hi to someone that I am going the same speed as when I'm out on a ride or event, because I'm a fairly friendly person, but someone drafting on my back wheel JUST DOES NOT BOTHER ME! I have never been taken out from behind - it is the person that cuts over on my front wheel, runs into the side of me and pushes me into the dirt or doesnt paceline well that bugs me. If it is just me and another person and they are drafting me, I figure they must need a break, I'm stronger and I'm happy to pull them. If I need a break, I just move to the right, slow down and ask them to pull a while. Simple as that. No animosity, no worry, no nada, just part of biking. If I'm uncomfortable with the skills someone has, I either help them, or I get away from them.

Yeah, that's my thought, I'm Stronger! So go ahead and draft - i dont care. If you hit my rear wheel, I'm not going down - YOU ARE!

spoke

[Starfish]

Yeah, that's my thought, I'm Stronger! So go ahead and draft - i dont care. If you hit my rear wheel, I'm not going down - YOU ARE! spoke

I know there are others out there who agree with you, too. I remember my first big organized ride. I had heard about the etiquette of asking permission, and I dutifully asked each person I wanted to draft. I got every response from total indifference (silence...no response) to "Sure, of course!" to "You don't need to ask...I couldn't care less."

I guess for me it kinda depends. On an organized ride, I really don't care (and I am slow enough that it hardly happens...so I'm sure that's part of it! :) ).

But, on roads and paved trails, if there aren't lots of cyclists around, and someone just eases up on me and follows somewhat closely a long time without saying anything, it kinda gets to me. Kinda like having a stranger on a less-than-crowded street just slip in behind and follow me. Just feels creepy. On the bike, especially if it is a guy, I usually pull over and let him go by.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

But, on roads and paved trails, if there aren't lots of cyclists around, and someone just eases up on me and follows somewhat closely a long time without saying anything, it kinda gets to me. Kinda like having a stranger on a less-than-crowded street just slip in behind and follow me. Just feels creepy. On the bike, especially if it is a guy, I usually pull over and let him go by.

Yes, that's how I feel. I think it's good to remember that not all cyclists ride in organized packs and clubs where drafting is taken for granted. Many of us are independent bicyclists who never ride in cycling clubs, and do not see ourselves so much as members of 'the sport'.
I am not antisocial, but if i am out riding alone then I am riding alone. I don't want some silent stranger following me. ((shudder)) Most of my rides have at least some portions that are rural and not highly populated. It would be pretty stupid for me to ride down a wooded back road while some strange man was tailing me on his bike.
At the very least I would want you to introduce yourself in a friendly way and ask to ride along for a while and chat (I still will be naturally wary though).
No stealth shadow riders for this girl.

[Crankin]

I don't feel comfortable with anyone drafting me. On occasion, I have been having a fast day when I am out with my husband. Usually, a guy will come up behind me and just stay there. They never say anything. In some cases they pass me, but sometimes it's a slower guy that just can't stand that a woman is ahead. Eventually, they drop back. I don't like it at all.
At times my husband wants me to "pull." I hate it. I just feel like he is going to crash into me being that close. I know he won't, but I can't stand it for more than 15 minutes.
The only people I will get sort of close behind are my husband or the couple who are our regular riding partners. I can predict what they will do. Oh, and Denise G., who I have ridden with several times.

[gnat23]

"You enjoying the view back there?" (This has embarrassed a few folks enough to get off my butt)

I felt bad one day when I was leap-frogging some dude on my usual commute route, but to my credit: I was doing intervals! So he'd pass me calmly, and then like a minute later I'd zip by like a bank robbery gone bad. Then he'd catch up and pass me again... he must have thought I was insane! :o

-- gnat!

[Grog]

I agree with Spokewench in theory, however there's no way my ride is going to be the same if there is someone behind me that crashes because they hit my rear wheel. Being at the front gives me lots of responsibilities, and I am not always willing to assume those responsibilities. If I'm riding casually, it's one thing. If I'm training and going at high speed/high effort (as mentioned by the original poster), it's another story.

In Montreal on the F1 Grand Prix course road cyclists tend to get together on summer evenings and ride in very fast pacelines together (30 mph, sometimes more). It's relatively flat, but there are some sharp turns and some inclines that can bring cyclists to stand up, or pedals to hit the pavement, with catastrophic effects for all involved. One night when I was there there was a crash and one cyclist died at the scene. Not a nice way to finish an evening.

When I went there to train, and joined the pacelines, I knew that it was dangerous (and exhilarating!). I trusted some people but certainly not everyone, and especially not strangers. It worked the other way around: I would not have tried to join a paceline with people I didn't know. If someone I did not want in my paceline joined us, and we couldn't get rid of him/her (usually him) (at that kind of pace, there are no kind words or gentle educational methods, just orders barked over shoulders in heavy wind), I'd just peel off and finish the workout on my own.

I feel the same when I'm training on the open road, although of course the risk is much less if there are only two - not twenty - people involved.

I also agree with Lisa's point of view regarding possibly creepy strangers. Not everyone wants to have company on the road, especially not company that requires attention (signals etc. are attention).

[Meaux]

Don't forget that when you're the passer, please SAY SOMETHING to let the passee know you're there. Otherwise the passee might swerve around a pothole or something and not know you're there and wham, down you both go.

Amen to that!! So often do people neglect to say "On your left" or something similar when they are passing. Inconsiderate cyclists make me eversogrouchy.

[tulip]

I know that it's the person in the rear who would go down, if tires touched...

That's how I got to ride in a Life Flight helicopter, although I don't remember it...:(

[ttaylor508]

The only person I draft off us is DH. He is a very strong and fast rider and really, its the only way I can keep up with him. We typically pick up a lot of riders on group rides, mostly guys, and the only time it bothers me is when they try to cut my wheel to get right behind him. I don't leave any space for them to cut in, they simply drift to the right to push me over. This happens so often that I finally convinced DH that we need matching Jerseys so people realize we are together. He has no clue this is happening while he is up front and it wasn't until last years double century that we did with a friend and our friend (who rode behind me the whole time) mentioned the problem to him that he realized it was an issue. (I am drifting now, not drafting.....)

When I am alone I don't draft off of strangers and it really doesn't bother me if they catch my wheel for a while. The only time it every bothered me was when this huge guy got on my wheel and was pounding massive gears to keep up. I figured if he hit my wheel we were both going down.

Anyhow, I think Blondiebiker's original post had more to do with how close is too close. I would say stay two to three bike lengths back if you are pacing (going the same speed as the other rider), thats just my two cents though and it sounds like some might still be uncomfortable with that distance.

[OakLeaf]

This thread is making me think that everyone should get in some good paceline practice.

Obviously it's easier to learn when you're young and full o' beans. And it may be harder for slower riders to find a group of people who want to ride paceline.

But the basic skills are ones that every rider should work on periodically. Maintaining a consistent speed; holding your line; signaling hazards both verbally and with hand signals; bike-handling skills and reflexes; group manners; listening to one's own body to know when to hand off the pull. Whether one normally rides alone or with others, it's important to have all these skills for traffic situations, and sympathetic pacelines of riders of similar abilities are one really good place to develop the skills.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

This thread is making me think that everyone should get in some good paceline practice....

Whether one normally rides alone or with others, it's important to have all these skills for traffic situations, and sympathetic pacelines of riders of similar abilities are one really good place to develop the skills.

I have developed some very good traffic and safety riding skills while riding with my husband, with occasional friends, and alone. I have absolutely no desire to ride in pacelines, whether for 'practice' or any other reason. ;)

But it's good idea for people who like to ride bicycles like that.

[maillotpois]

Even if you don't "plan" to ride in pacelines, it's still a great idea from a bike handling perspective to know how to do it, and how to ride safely in a group.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Even if you don't "plan" to ride in pacelines, it's still a great idea from a bike handling perspective to know how to do it, and how to ride safely in a group.

One can develop very safe 'group riding' skills without developing safe 'paceline riding' skills. They are not the same thing, though they may have many aspects in common. It's totally ok if you think it's a 'great idea' for everyone to practice paceline skills. I feel differently and will work on the skills I feel are relevant to my biking and beneficial to me personally. :)

[maillotpois]

I know they're not the same skills (that's why I used the "and" ;) ). They do complement each other and we teach both to our riders for safety purposes more than anything. But if it's not for you, it's not for you. :)

[Brandy]

I've been watching this thread for quite a while and I'm sorry, but I just don't really get it. Drafting is a part of this sport - I will usually say hi to someone that I am going the same speed as when I'm out on a ride or event, because I'm a fairly friendly person, but someone drafting on my back wheel JUST DOES NOT BOTHER ME! I

Spoke, I'm right there with you.

[mkidd]

My triathlon coach had us do a paceline workout last year. I never knew how potentially dangerous it was. I prefer more space as I'm not a really strong rider, but in reading this thread I'm glad she had us do it.

[Crankin]

Well, I understand why someone would say everyone should practice paceline skills, but like Lisa, there's no way I want to do that. I ride in groups, but it's not paceline riding. Most of the people have good skills, but one group I ride with, many don't. I know who to stay away from. The rides my husband and I lead are more social. I am strict about "single file," calling out, and signaling. If someone doesn't like it, then they don't need to come on my rides!
Last year SheFly asked me to come to her club's paceline clinic. I am just too afraid to do that. It doesn't make me a bad rider; I am not a racer and the only one I want to draft is my husband, so we can ride together. Even then, I stay back a little.

[Brandy]

I was thinking about this post last night and wondering why the drafting thing just didn't bother me when it seems to be an issue with so many people here. Maybe it's because there are A LOT of cyclists here and at any given time that I'm on the coast riding, chances are I will come upon another person who hangs behind me for awhile, or vice versa. I'm always looking around when I'm riding to make sure I know if there are other cyclists around me that I should be calling out hazards and signaling to. I guess I figure that there are times when I've needed a pull and I'm happy to return the favor. Another thought is that unless I know I can pass AND drop someone, I'll hang back instead of passing. This may mean I'm back there for a couple of minutes while I assess or wait for a place to safely pass.

I also agree with MP that everyone should have group riding/pacelining skills. If you ever plan to be on the road with other riders, whether it be two or two hundred during an organized event, you need to know how to handle that situation.

[tulip]

I enjoy pacelines and find them fun and valuable for training, but I do want to know that the other folks in the line know what they are doing. I ride in pacelines with people I know, but not with some stranger on the road because I don't know their skills. If I come up on someone, I'll either hang way back or pass them. If someone comes up on me, I'll usually ease up on my pace so that they will pass me.

Clinics are a good way to learn, but you also need to practice; one clinic won't do it. Clinics that provide follow-up practice sessions would be great, but I don't know if those are offered. Some clubs, even recreational ones, offer paceline skills rides. I think it's a valuable skill to have, but riders need to learn how to do it properly.

[maillotpois]

Thanks, Brandy.

I remember when I started riding, and our coach said we'd be working in pacelines. I was quite nervous about it. I mean, I am the most uncoordinated person I know. I was in remedial PE (that's back when they had funding for such things in public schools - it really did scar me for life and I just always assumed I would never be an athlete).

Then once I started working in groups, with proper training and guidance, I found it a wonderful thing. There is just NOTHING like working with a group of cyclists, fighting the wind, pushing your speed - or simply riding together single file chatting. I'll never forget working with one particular (non-TNT) group in a pacelining clinic (which included some contact drills on a lawn after the ride) and on the way back in one of the women commented with a big grin "So that's what its like to go fast!"

The ride we're training our people for, the Death Ride, has VERY little pacelining or traditional group riding - it is a solo event. But there's enough opportunity to ride together in training that it is critical to get those skills in place among our riders. It's a critical skill to have and I wouldn't omit it from a safety perspective. We spend some time at our first ride doing a clinic on this and then reinforce those skills throughout the season. (Which is a LOT easier now that I'm back coaching from the bike instead of the SAG car! ;) ).

[Grog]

Forgive my confusion and please provide me with information:

When riding with a group, I've only ever ridden in paceline-ish formations. Sometimes it would break down into smaller groups (2-4 riders) but my club (and myself as an occasional ride leader) enforced the idea of us behaving as "one vehicle" (we had yellow jerseys so a yellow school bus was suiting) :D We rode on streets with moderate traffic a lot and it really helped to keep us in ruly, organized, structured groups. When I ride with my husband we keep very close together 95% of the time as well. Or we try to...

I don't know groups/club around here that ride differently, but I have not seen that many.

As a driver, I don't mind passing a paceline, even a double one, mainly of course because I am familiar with them and know they are predictable. What unsettles me more is passing a large number of small groups of cyclists, which don't usually ride single file unfortunately.

How exactly do "social rides" as some have described above work?? How do people spread themselves on the road? What does it mean to "ride together" if everyone is riding sort of separately? I'm looking for a new club to ride with and I expect it to be more "social" so I'd like to prepare mentally.

[jobob]

I'll never forget working with one particular (non-TNT) group in a pacelining clinic (which included some contact drills on a lawn after the ride) and on the way back in one of the women commented with a big grin "So that's what its like to go fast!" That was a fun day! :)

[Veronica]

I guess I'm the creepy guy on a bicycle. :D I've been known to turn around and catch up to folks who are out riding on our closed to vehicle traffic local road, if I'm feeling social. Last time it was a guy that I had been "talking" to on Bikeforums, but had never met before.

I guess in general I don't see other cyclists as being creepy.

V.

[maillotpois]

Sorry V, cute girls on stunning steel steeds simply cannot BE "creepy".

:p

[Veronica]

Jo is pretty cute, isn't she. :D

V.

[mimitabby]

As a driver, I don't mind passing a paceline, even a double one, mainly of course because I am familiar with them and know they are predictable. What unsettles me more is passing a large number of small groups of cyclists, which don't usually ride single file unfortunately.

How exactly do "social rides" as some have described above work?? How do people spread themselves on the road? What does it mean to "ride together" if everyone is riding sort of separately? I'm looking for a new club to ride with and I expect it to be more "social" so I'd like to prepare mentally.

Unless there are two or more lanes going in one direction, we stay single file. If we have a lane, we'll have bikes side by side. When you ride really long rides (20-100 miles) it's hard for everyone to ride together, so we more or less stay in clumps. hills are another situation where you're better off NOT close to other bikes, because one person might be grinding up the hill at 4mph and someone else at 14mph so we tend to get spaced out and then regroup from time to time.

[SadieKate]

Silly me, here I thought that riding single file was pacelining without the intent of drafting.

I also don't plan on driving donuts on icy roads, but I took a class to learn what to do just in case I found myself in an unplanned whirl.

I have definitely had creepy guys follow me on a bicycle. Multiple times, I've also been followed dangerously by cars, including one for 100 miles down I-5 back before there were towns and highway patrol cars at frequent intervals. I've had way too many encounters with guys that don't know how to respect personal space to let anyone follow without some kind of evaluation.

[SadieKate]

hills are another situation where you're better off NOT close to other bikes, because one person might be grinding up the hill at 4mph and someone else at 14mph so we tend to get spaced out and then regroup from time to time.But if you can climb at the same pace as someone else and can trust their skills to ride a straight line, why not climb somewhat closely? I'll let aka_kim pull me up any hill.:)

Descending spread out, but climbing with a trusted comparable rider? Why not ride fairly close?

[mimitabby]

SadieKate you answered your own question. I don't know anyone who rides my speed up hill. They are either faster or slower.

When I did Hurricane Ridge with RD, he circled me often and our riding partner met us when we got to the lodge on top.

[OakLeaf]

Descending spreadout, but climbing with a trusted comparable rider? Why not ride fairly close?

For one thing, when you're climbing, even strong riders are going so slow that the advantage from drafting is minimal.

For another, flatland pacelining is a way for riders of comparable but not identical abilities to stay together; stronger riders take longer pulls, less strong riders take short ones or even peel off as soon as they reach the front. Strength and weight differences are greatly magnified once you get into the hills.

But mainly, even with only two riders, one of you may want to stand up when the other wants to stay in the saddle.

Personally I don't have the skills to micro-control my bike's front-to-back movement when I stand up, even though I'm perfectly comfortable in a flatland paceline. Other riders, who spin perfectly smoothly, get into a big side-to-side sway whenever they're standing up. There's just a whole 'nother level of bike control involved when you're standing.

With all these disadvantages, and with the advantage of drafting being so small, the groups I ride with in hilly country never stay that close together.

[SadieKate]

SadieKate you answered your own question. I don't know anyone who rides my speed up hill. They are either faster or slower.I wasn't really asking a question. I was wondering why you appeared to be making a global recommendation that everyone spread out when climbing a hill.

[Brandy]

For one thing, when you're climbing, even strong riders are going so slow that the advantage from drafting is minimal.

For another, flatland pacelining is a way for riders of comparable but not identical abilities to stay together; stronger riders take longer pulls, less strong riders take short ones or even peel off as soon as they reach the front. Strength and weight differences are greatly magnified once you get into the hills.

But mainly, even with only two riders, one of you may want to stand up when the other wants to stay in the saddle.

Personally I don't have the skills to micro-control my bike's front-to-back movement when I stand up, even though I'm perfectly comfortable in a flatland paceline. Other riders, who spin perfectly smoothly, get into a big side-to-side sway whenever they're standing up. There's just a whole 'nother level of bike control involved when you're standing.

With all these disadvantages, and with the advantage of drafting being so small, the groups I ride with in hilly country never stay that close together.


When climbing it's definitely more pacing than drafting, but that can be very beneficial.

If I'm climbing with someone and I want to stand, I signal that I will be standing and shift to a harder gear which makes the transition smoother. riding with my boyfriend (vireo) I can anticipate when he is going to stand, simply by paying attention to the pitches on the hill.

[SadieKate]

Oakleaf, I know there is no drafting advantage to following closely on a climb but there sure is a mental boost and the companionship of shared misery.

Generally, people don't stand in pacelines. Do it at the back.

And if you're climbing closely with someone and need to stand, just call it out beforehand. It's a good idea to be climbing spaced a little bit apart so that the kickback of standing won't cause contact but you can still be close enough to gossip.

[maillotpois]

When I paced one of the women I coached up the climbs at Death Ride last year, it was really fun to work on that control when standing - not letting the bike move back at all. I agree it's not something for everyone, so when climbing/pacing if you don't have that control or are not completely comfortable with the person ahead, then give yourself half a wheel or a wheel length behind.

Even if the paces in climbing are not the same (which they were not on that particular ride), it is a great challenge for the lead rider to keep a pace the other can comfortably follow. You have to really be aware of the other rider's pace, how they show weakness and tiredness. Brandy's right, they're not drafting. But you're setting a smooth consistent pace that they might not quite be able to set on their own. (A little like how the support riders pace their leaders on climbs in the races. But MUCH slower. :p ).

[Brandy]

Oakleaf, I know there is no drafting advantage to following closely on a climb but there sure is a mental boost and the companionship of shared misery.

Generally, people don't stand in pacelines. Do it at the back.

And if you're climbing closely with someone and need to stand, just call it out beforehand. It's a good idea to be climbing spaced a little bit apart so that the kickback of standing won't cause contact but you can still be close enough to gossip.

Or drop the "f-bomb" repeatedly. :eek:On the Eastern Sierra Double last year I was riding with a girl and her fiancee and he actually dropped us because our language got so colorful on one particular climb. :p

[maillotpois]

It's a good idea to be climbing spaced a little bit apart so that the kickback of standing won't cause contact but you can still be close enough to gossip.

I think this is fine, just as long as you are not talking about me.

[MM_QFC!]

...but you can still be close enough to gossip.

or whine together!:p

[SadieKate]

Even if the paces in climbing are not the same (which they were not on that particular ride), it is a great challenge for the lead rider to keep a pace the other can comfortably follow. You have to really be aware of the other rider's pace, how they show weakness and tiredness. I use this as one of my indicators for conditioning and bike handling skills. When I can pace a slower rider up a hill, I know my own fitness and skills are doing well.

In other words, I don't HAVE to find my own pace to survive the hill.

[SadieKate]

I think this is fine, just as long as you are not talking about me.Oh, well, then . . . . . . . .:D

Is it okay as long as we don't use Brandy's f-bomb?

[maillotpois]

You've met me, right? The f-bomb would be required...

[Crankin]

This is to answer Grog's question. My rides are social because while some of us are close together, others are riding side by side IF we are on a rural country road, and others are passing and/or moving back to talk to friends.
We also stop and regroup. AMC requires there is a sweep. That is usually me when I lead with my husband, so let's say at the top of a climb, the group will wait until I show up behind the slowest person. We don't drop anyone. MOST of the time all of the riders are within a speed range, but last year, on all of our rides, we had at least one "outlier." It was torture for me, mostly because each of these persons misrepresented their skills when I screened them. Now I am so fricken to the point when I screen riders, they truly understand if it's the ride for them. Every single time the person has been a woman, who lives near the city, who is not used to the smallest rollers and hills. So they say they can ride 25 or 35 miles, but they lie about their average and the hill thing. These rides are not that fast to begin with, and there are "easier" group rides in the club, so there is no reason to lie.
We stopped leading the show and go rides, because there are too many unknowns. After 3 years, I know most of the people who sign up for our rides and the new ones usually are nice people who have found the type of ride they want.
The other club I ride with is part of a more traditional bike club. However, it's a group for "older" riders who can ride during the week. I hooked up with them in the summer when one of them came on one of my rides, that I lead alone on a 95 degree day, when my husband was in the hospital. Of course, there are a lot of younger people, 30's-40's who come, too. These groups tend to be huge and some are very squirrelly. I stay up front and that avoids the issue. Many of these people are great athletes, have run the Boston Marathon many times and ride long distances. They are just older and slower now.

[Eden]

Silly me, here I thought that riding single file was pacelining without the intent of drafting.


I'll have to agree with you here - riding in a line with other people is pacelining no matter how fast you are going and not knowing how to do it is dangerous no matter how fast you are going... in fact falls at slow speeds are probably more likely to result in broken bones than really fast ones, which result in more road rash....

Even if you are a loner if you EVER plan to do an organized ride you will more than likely end up in some sort of informal paceline, so better to know how to do it than end up in over your head.

[Crankin]

Well, the only time I went down on a group ride was when the leader slowed:eek: without signaling. My husband was behind him, thinking this guy knew how to paceline. After he hit, he knew he was going down, and swung wide so I wouldn't hit him. Of course, my eyes followed him, and I went down, along with the 2 behind me. We were going around 20, which may not be fast for some, but for this group it was. I wasn't hurt, but I was shook up, my helmet scraped, and I had a headache for a week. We left the group and rode to the emergency room after my husband's elbow swelled like crazy (it was just from the medication he takes).
Not my best ride and I will never go on a ride with that leader again. He's very nice, but doesn't know how to lead.

[jobob]

When I can pace a slower rider up a hill, I know my own fitness and skills are doing well. I'll remember that next time we ride up a hill together and you're hanging back with me. :cool:

[jobob]

Sorry V, cute girls on stunning steel steeds simply cannot BE "creepy". :p

Sure I can! :D

[jobob]

Well, the only time I went down on a group ride was when the leader slowed:eek: without signaling. Sounds a lot like the Ride Leader from Hell that snapdragen and I had a few years ago, when we participated in a series of training rides put on by a local club to to prepare us for the Cinderella ride.

Luckily no one suffered any bodily harm on account of said ride leader's boneheaded maneuvers, but I considered strangling her on more than one occasion. :p

[SadieKate]

I'll remember that next time we ride up a hill together and you're hanging back with me. :cool:And just how will you be able to tell if I'm hanging back or hanging on?

Something tells me you can put the hurt on me right now. I've got a lot of puppy cuddling to do.

Not to mention it snowed again last night and still hasn't melted in the shadows.:p

[Geonz]

We also have social rides that have absolutely nothing resembling a paceline. There is, simply, more room between riders. Many of the riders are really glad that there is a chance to go for a ride and not have to have an extra skill set (and there's the occasional person who's been in a crash and is gun-shy... ). Sometimes there are 30 or 40 of us ... but it doesn't take long to become subgroups and we *do* talk about & encourage & dare I say enforce not being a traffic hazard with creative clumping.

Just a word in defense of outliers... many people overestimate their averages because they sort of interpret it to mean "the speed you spend most of your time going." Most faster riders (and it sounds like your club's easiest rides are pretty fast) use the actual average that the speedo gives... which means (at least around here, where we generally have to go a bit in traffic to get out to the ountry) that most of the time we're riding significantly faster than the "average." It's a constant communication challenge. (I can also sympathize with hoping that the easiest club ride would actually be in the range of a relative beginner.)

[OakLeaf]

many people overestimate their averages because they sort of interpret it to mean "the speed you spend most of your time going."

Actually in the two clubs I belong to, the "ride average speed" is expressly defined the way you're talking about. So, say a flat B ride will "average" 17-20 mph, because that's how fast we're going most of the time, even though at the end of the ride, with warm-up, stop signs, turnaround, etc., our computers will read a true average more in the 15 mph range.

[Eden]

Just a word in defense of outliers... many people overestimate their averages because they sort of interpret it to mean "the speed you spend most of your time going."

I find people tend to overestimate because they think of it as "the speed I see when I look down at my speedo most often..." and most people tend to look at and remember the higher numbers more than the lower ones ;)

Looking at your actual speedometer average can be just as unuseful though..... if you ride anywhere where you have to contend with traffic, lights or stop signs that will drag your average speed down quite quickly. I think thats why our local club defines the rides by the "average speed of steady riding on flat terrain" and not the average for the ride. That hopefully gives people a better idea of what to expect.

[Crankin]

Believe me, I know that the outliers think that average speed means the speed you see when you look down at your speedo.
I now say: "What is your average speed? By average, I mean your true average. What does the av. speed function on your computer say at the end of a ride that has some hills in it?"
If the person can't answer that, then I ask,"How long does it take you to ride 15 miles?" "How many miles do you ride in one hour?"
Usually, someone can answer one of those questions and give me a clear idea of their riding.
The rides I lead are considered intermediate. The advertised speed is 13-16 mph average. Our beginner rides are 10-13 mph average. Our rides usually average 13-14, as there is significant climbing on most of them.

[DirtDiva]

Yer not s'posed to hang onto 'em, yer s'posed to lose 'em. Hard. Or die trying.
Cause if yer goin' for the chase you gotta make the kill.



(and then pull over for some fictional reason and hold it....hold it....hold it....ok, he's gone...keel over from lack of oxygen)
I like your style. :cool: