Deputy kills 2, 1 in critical cond.

[motochick]

This wasn't even close. Look how far off the WRONG side of the road the car is!
http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=6009151

He should be in jail, not on paid leave!

My heart goes out to the families involved.

Brenda

[snapdragen]

That's a bit harsh don't you think? It looks like a horrible accident, my hearts go out to all involved.

[mimitabby]

It's a bit ironic, there was a bit in our local paper about how police officers routinely go through red lights. (we have red light cameras now) A percentage of them were excused but most of the infractions were simply police not wanting to wait for the light to change.

I wouldn't be surprised if that deputy wasn't driving much too fast for the conditions.

[rij73]

That's terrible... It's the same accident being discussed in the thread called "Reality Check"

[snapdragen]

Most recent article says the deputy may have fallen asleep.

[trinena]

here's a link to an article. Matt Peterson was a member of Roaring Mouse Cycles(SF) and Kristy Gough was a pro triathlete.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/09/BAEMVH0TO.DTL&feed=rss.bayarea

http://www.roaringmousecycles.com/gallery/customer-road/Matt

[Grog]

I'm really feeling sick. This is awful.

[melissam]

Ditto to what Grog said. This is terrible. My heart goes out to the family & friends of all involved, including the deputy.

[kerrybelle]

It's a bit ironic, there was a bit in our local paper about how police officers routinely go through red lights. (we have red light cameras now) A percentage of them were excused but most of the infractions were simply police not wanting to wait for the light to change.

I wouldn't be surprised if that deputy wasn't driving much too fast for the conditions.


DH & I were hit by an officer, who went through a red light with NO sirens, responding to a call. There was 2 inches of fresh snow on the ground and the officer said he stopped and checked the intersection before proceeding. So, please tell me how he then got to 40 mph before hitting us in the intersection?! Oh and we were driving my brand new Blazer at the time, not even 30 day old!

Yes, I wouldn't hesitate to say that this officer was traveling too fast for the conditions, also.

My hearts & prayers go out the families involved!

[Trek420]

Most recent article says the deputy may have fallen asleep.

Bet he's awake now :o According to news he is very sad and remorseful.

Watching NBC 11 right now, they start with a mention "they were riding where there was no bike lane :mad:" camera cuts back to show the scene with a wide marked shoulder.

He could have just as well hit a car with 3 occupants as the cyclists. Would media have implied the driver was at fault then "well, they were driving in that other lane"

[EDHGirl]

He was just starting his shift. I'm not buying the fell asleep excuse. I would however put a buck on the fact that he was using his onboard computer when this happened and missed a turn in the road. I've got a brother who's a cop and he says close calls happen all the time because cops are typing with one hand and driving with the other.

Really tragic.

[KSH]

How horrible and tragic. My heart goes out to the cyclists families. How very sad. They didn't have a chance.

As for the officer... well, let's face it, people in cars hit cyclists all the time and everyone blames the cyclist... it's NEVER the fault of the driver in the car. AND even if it is... no one cares. "Oh well, so what... he plowed down people on bikes... they deserved it."

If he killed a family in a car, there would be serious charges brought against him. Since he hit cyclist, it's OK. *rolls her eyes*

I wish they would view people on bikes as if they were driving cars and throw the book at people who kill people on bikes.

[trinena]

I was at my PT this morning and coming down the stairs I saw a framed picture of Kristy Gough (one of the cyclists killed). She had been treated there and it was pic of her at Ironman winning her age group.

It's all very upsetting including the news coverage and what they say about cyclists - one report said how sometimes cyclists ride next to one another and how dangerous, even though not illegal, this is. How is that conjecture even relevant?! That road they were on has a wide shoulder to ride on - it really is one of the least dangerous roads out there. I also don't understand why they have not released the name of the deputy and why a breathalyzer test wasn't administered.

[trinena]

article about Kristy

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/10/MNE8VH1CV.DTL

[sundial]

I really have to hand it to you guys that cycle in the large cities. I'm not so sure I would ride my road bike anymore. Now I understand why some abandon their road bikes for the mtb and trails.

[kelownagirl]

Another article.

XTri website (http://www.xtri.com/features_display.aspx?riIDReport=4538&CAT=25&xref=xx)

[KSH]

I really have to hand it to you guys that cycle in the large cities. I'm not so sure I would ride my road bike anymore. Now I understand why some abandon their road bikes for the mtb and trails.

Well, I ride in Dallas, TX. You just do what you gotta do. We ride in a group, but as this accident shows, safety isn't always in numbers.

Otherwise, the only 2 bike wrecks that I have had involved mud in the road and wind. The cyclists I know who have had wrecks... went down due to other cyclists. Not cars.

So yes, the city is dangerous but we do more harm to ourselves riding around here.

[DDH]

I can guarantee you that the officer will have to undergo drug testing.

I feel terrible for the families of all involved.

I'm not niave enough to think that all officers are good and above reproach, but being married to one and having first hand knowledge of all they go through and put up with, I do know that most new officers are in the job because they want to do good and help people and this would be the last thing any of them would want to have to live with.

I am saddened that the media and others want to point blame at the cyclist.
It seems to most definetly be the officers fault regardless the reason, and something he will have to live with always.
These accidents, when accidents are what they truly are, are horrible for anyone involved regardless if they are an officer or just somebody's mother or father.

[Geonz]

The "accidental" part is when a driver actually hits somebody.

The choice made to use electronics or to drive when drowsy... that's no accident. THat's done on purpose.

When we make choices that significantly increase the risk to others on our paths... we need to be held responsible for the consequences of those choices. He can't give back the lives, but I would suggest - shocking as it may be - that he shouldn't be burdened with the responsibility of driving and we shouldn't be burdened with the danger of him driving (unless, somehow, it's found that oh, a bird flew through an open window, struck him on the head and rendered him unconscoius... *that* would be an accident.)

[Veronica]

I spent my ride today thinking about this.

Is there anyone who can honestly say they have never done something stupid or been inattentive in a car? I know I can't. I know there have been times when I've done something and thought, "Wow, I'm glad nobody else was around because that could have been ugly." I'm so thankful that I have been lucky.

What I'm going to take from this is the reminder that life is precious. I want to be more careful with what I do, not just in my car, but in general. I want to spend my time on this earth wisely. Maybe be a little nicer... a little kinder... do I really need to be so sarcastic at staff meetings? more thoughtful of others. We're all on this world together. Maybe I can do more to make it a better place.

The deputy has to live with this forever. He's only 27. If he's a decent, compassionate man, he's going to be suffering for a long time because he screwed up and he didn't get lucky and have no one around. I doubt it was in his plan for the day to have that happen.

When I have a perfect day, maybe I can rest in judgement on him.

V.

PS If it turns out that he was on drugs or alcohol, then I take back everything I just said.

[salsabike]

I spent my ride today thinking about this.

Is there anyone who can honestly say they have never done something stupid or been inattentive in a car? I know I can't. I know there have been times when I've done something and thought, "Wow, I'm glad nobody else was around because that could have been ugly." I'm so thankful that I have been lucky.

What I'm going to take from this is the reminder that life is precious. I want to be more careful with what I do, not just in my car, but in general. I want to spend my time on this earth wisely. Maybe be a little nicer... a little kinder... do I really need to be so sarcastic at staff meetings? more thoughtful of others. We're all on this world together. Maybe I can do more to make it a better place.

The deputy has to live with this forever. He's only 27. If he's a decent, compassionate man, he's going to be suffering for a long time because he screwed up and he didn't get lucky and have no one around. I doubt it was in his plan for the day to have that happen.

When I have a perfect day, maybe I can rest in judgement on him.

V.

PS If it turns out that he was on drugs or alcohol, then I take back everything I just said.

Exactly. Every single word. Thank you.

[maillotpois]

V-

Ditto. Yup. You said it.

[jesvetmed]

Well said, Veronica.

I KNOW that I have been there -- falling asleep especially, being a night worker that lives 45 minutes from where I work. I think about this all of the time.

I sincerely HOPE this was purely accident, and not some choice made that changed the fate of the day -- as it is, pure accident will be a terrible thing for this deputy to live the rest of his life with.

KSH: I agree about how people look at cyclists... I can recall one day that someone in a pickup truck rolled down the window and yelled at me, "Get off the road! You're not a F*%$#G CAR!". That is how many people feel. Never mind, there is only two inches on the pavement past the white line before you hit the ditch! But when hit, it's suddenly our fault.

Thoughts go out to everyone -- this is truly devastating to all involved.
JES

[PinkBike]

thanks, V, that's beautiful

[maillotpois]

This article gives a great bio on both the cyclists:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2008/police_california_deaths08

[emily_in_nc]

So yes, the city is dangerous but we do more harm to ourselves riding around here.

Yes, and crashes can happen anywhere. My serious bike wreck in April 2005 happened in an extremely rural area, no cars on the road at all, just two big dogs that ran out right for me. I actually feel safer in the city sometimes, as I know the chances of dogs running freely is much less, and cars sometimes don't worry me as much as dogs, due to my experience.

This is very sad news indeed...

Emily

[Jones]

I totally agree with Veronica on this one. I really feel for the family's of the couple that were killed but I feel equally sorry for the cop. Twenty-seven, first year on the job, his life is over now too. I will keep all involved in my thoughts and prayers.

[aka_kim]

These two articles were on the front page of the local paper today ... odd, since they usually ignore anything cycling related.

Riders' deaths rattle cyclists in Bay Area (http://www.contracostatimes.com/search/ci_8531046)
Accident a reminder to respect center stripe (http://www.contracostatimes.com/search/ci_8531105)

[Starfish]

PS If it turns out that he was on drugs or alcohol, then I take back everything I just said.

As one who has made idiotic mistakes in this area, as well as many other areas, even these circumstances leave room for compassion.

[Veronica]

You're right SF. I personally just find those kind of choices harder to understand and forgive. Probably because I've been on the receiving end of people who made those choices already.

V.

[Starfish]

I've been on the receiving end of people who made those choices already. V.

Me, too. I'm sorry you've had that experience. :(

[mimitabby]

it is quite likely that if a car had been where the bikes were, the occupants of that vehicle would be dead too (and maybe the deputy as well!)

[KSH]

I totally agree with Veronica on this one. I really feel for the family's of the couple that were killed but I feel equally sorry for the cop. Twenty-seven, first year on the job, his life is over now too. I will keep all involved in my thoughts and prayers.

His life is not over. He might pay a fine (maybe $200? something really low)... and that will be it.

You see, when a driver in a car hits and kills a cyclist, they are NOT brought up on involuntary manslaughter charges. That would only happen if he had hit and killed another person in a car.

That's where our laws really fail people.

[trinena]

Here are two SF Chronicle articles that made the front page this morning. The second one has stats about the decrease of accidents but increase in fatalities. It also says that accidents in rural areas or open highways tend to involve higher speeds than urban areas and speed is the highest contributing factor for fatality in a bike collision.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/03/11/MNCTVH7DF.DTL

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/03/11/MNHPVHGQB.DTL

[Veronica]

His life is not over. He might pay a fine (maybe $200? something really low)... and that will be it.

You see, when a driver in a car hits and kills a cyclist, they are NOT brought up on involuntary manslaughter charges. That would only happen if he had hit and killed another person in a car.

That's where our laws really fail people.

What does money or jail time really do? I think the mental anguish he 's going to have is quite a lot of punishment. But if I ran the world... I would also make him to do community service giving speeches to groups about being more mindful of what you do.

V.

[mimitabby]

I find it ironic that after noticing that he killed somebody; he said "My life is over!" not "oh those poor people, what did i do?!"

[LBTC]

I find it ironic that after noticing that he killed somebody; he said "My life is over!" not "oh those poor people, what did i do?!"

Did he? oh! :eek:

I'm sending loads of butterflies down there....to the families of everyone involved, to the cyclist still in the hospital, to all the cyclists in the area, and to all the drivers in the area to help them realize that cyclists have as much right to be on the road as they do, and they should be treated with the same respect as cars are.

Hugs to all of you TE'ers in the SF Bay area,
~T~

[wackyjacky1]

You see, when a driver in a car hits and kills a cyclist, they are NOT brought up on involuntary manslaughter charges. That would only happen if he had hit and killed another person in a car.


Oy, I never thought of that. Argh! :mad:

[DDH]

His life is not over. He might pay a fine (maybe $200? something really low)... and that will be it.

You see, when a driver in a car hits and kills a cyclist, they are NOT brought up on involuntary manslaughter charges. That would only happen if he had hit and killed another person in a car.

That's where our laws really fail people.

Involuntary manslaughter charges are given to drivers who kills another in a vehicle. Anyone driving drunk and killing someone in the process or if it is proven that the person is driving reckless are charged with that very thing.

MANSLAUGHTER, INVOLUNTARY - In order for a person to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter the government must prove that someone was killed as a result of an act by the person;

Second, in the circumstances existing at the time, the person's act either was by its nature dangerous to human life or was done with reckless disregard for human life; and

Third, the person either knew that such conduct was a threat to the lives of others or knew of circumstances that would reasonably cause the person to foresee that such conduct might be a threat to the lives of others.

[maillotpois]

You see, when a driver in a car hits and kills a cyclist, they are NOT brought up on involuntary manslaughter charges. That would only happen if he had hit and killed another person in a car.


Is this true? I don't see how you can make a distinction between car/bike for the victim. (Granted we didn't specifically address this issue in crim law and I'm dating myself to say how long ago I was in law school... ;) ).

[GeoCam]

Sarah - I'm not going to say how long ago I was in law school either, but this statement really struck me as well and I had to go look it up.

Obviously, each state will have its own penal code, but at least for Texas and California, the statute says only "death of an individual" or "killing of a human being." It makes no difference whether the victim was in a car or on a bike.



Is this true? I don't see how you can make a distinction between car/bike for the victim. (Granted we didn't specifically address this issue in crim law and I'm dating myself to say how long ago I was in law school... ;) ).

[invsblwmn]

Driving a car (AKA wielding a dangerous weapon) has far too long been considered a right rather than a priviledge by the general public. Any time that a person gets behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle (certainly one 1/2 ton or more) we need to take responsibility for control of that weapon and for the consequences of our choices (careless, reckless, or sleep related) while using it.
Our laws protect the rights of drivers, period. I was hit in a pedestrian crosswalk by an 80 year old man in Sept. 07 who was driving a SUV 40MPH plus in a 25MPH zone and charged with running a red light. He got an $150 ticket. He had a DUI in 2007 as well and was still driving legally. Guess what?? He is STILL driving legally.
I got a 2 1/2 week hospital stay, a couple of plates in my arm, rental wheelchairs, pain galore and a big wake up call.
No judgement on the young man here. He just should not have the right to drive for at least a period of time. What should occur is mandatory retraining, community service, restitution to the families (financial/in therapy, or however they see fit), and his prooving that he can consistantly handle this weapon PRIOR to his being allowed the priviledge of driving.
Two people are dead. They were following the law. Many of the news articles are about riding bikes safely. Give me a break. What about focusing on DRIVING safely??
Maybe this is a little personal for me, but anytime someone gets hurt consequences need to be a little heavier than guilt and a traffic ticket. Our roads are safer when drivers are safer.

[mimitabby]

Driving a car (AKA wielding a dangerous weapon) has far too long been considered a right rather than a priviledge by the general public. Any time that a person gets behind the wheel of a motorized vehicle (certainly one 1/2 ton or more) we need to take responsibility for control of that weapon and for the consequences of our choices (careless, reckless, or sleep related) while using it.
Our laws protect the rights of drivers, period. I was hit in a pedestrian crosswalk by an 80 year old man in Sept. 07 who was driving a SUV 40MPH plus in a 25MPH zone and charged with running a red light. He got an $150 ticket. He had a DUI in 2007 as well and was still driving legally. Guess what?? He is STILL driving legally.
I got a 2 1/2 week hospital stay, a couple of plates in my arm, rental wheelchairs, pain galore and a big wake up call.
No judgement on the young man here. He just should not have the right to drive for at least a period of time. What should occur is mandatory retraining, community service, restitution to the families (financial/in therapy, or however they see fit), and his prooving that he can consistantly handle this weapon PRIOR to his being allowed the priviledge of driving.
Two people are dead. They were following the law. Many of the news articles are about riding bikes safely. Give me a break. What about focusing on DRIVING safely??
Maybe this is a little personal for me, but anytime someone gets hurt consequences need to be a little heavier than guilt and a traffic ticket. Our roads are safer when drivers are safer.

++++

[lettyedge]

The sad part is that it could have just as easily have been one of us...in many other situations. I think that is the real tragedy. I'm certain all of us have had a bad experience with poor drivers at some point.
A few years ago UtahUtah (http://www.sltrib.com//ci_8425419?IADID=Search-www.sltrib.com-www.sltrib.com) passed a three-foot law that makes drivers keep a three-foot distance form cyclists.
This situation is completely different, especially considering he crossed the double yellow line. My point however, is that by passing these laws and bringing awareness, maybe more lives will be saved.
I personally have lost my uncle who was killed on his bike by a drunk driver, and also my Husbands sister was hit by a guy, who was never even cited for hitting her.
I just hope that more people will become aware.
This is just toooo tragic and life is too precious.

[PscyclePath]

The word now is that the deputy in question was arrested for drunken drivng a couple years ago, but was allowed to plea bargain into a charge for taking part in a speed exihibition on the highway, whatever that is.

I feel a little for the guy, but at least he is alive and able to maybe feel some remorse. Two law-abiding innocents are dead and cold in their graves, and another is probably maimed for life.

They haven't made enough buses yet to throw this dude under.

[trinena]

For those of you in the area there is a memorial ride for Matt and Kristy on Sat. afternoon details in below link.

http://rememberingmatt.blogspot.com/

I would feel more optimistic about a fair investigation if deputy Council were to speak to CHP investigators but his lawyer has advised him not to. He left the scene with another deputy (stated because he was distraught and he was rambling) before they got there and he still has not spoken to them. I'm wondering if that's how things usually proceed?

I agree with Invsblwmn "... anytime someone gets hurt consequences need to be a little heavier than guilt and a traffic ticket." For the sake of Matt and Kristy's families and friends I hope it's resolved soon.

[OakLeaf]

Whether or not the victim is in another vehicle, a bike or a pedestrian doesn't make any legal difference. It often makes a difference in the amount of sympathy the victim draws from the prosecutor (who decides what charges to file), and the judge and/or jury (who decide guilt or innocence and sentence).

What is wrong with the law, in every state I'm aware of, is the mens rea (mental element for those one or two non-lawyers in this thread ;)) required for vehicular homicide. Any other traffic offense is strict liability. That means if you're speeding, it doesn't matter if your speedo was broken and you didn't know it. If you're drunk, it doesn't matter whether or not you'd tested your BAC or whether you had any idea that one drink might interact with some legal meds you were on. If you run a red light, it doesn't matter whether you saw it or not.

Kill somebody and all that goes out the window. All of a sudden the state has another element to prove: what was in your head, and what might have been in the head of a hypothetical "reasonable person." The more serious the consequences, the MORE the state has to prove. THAT's what's wrong with the law.

[Geonz]

Amen.

It's not easy to solve, though, because so many people simply can't imagine depriving somebody of the privilege of driving. Our culture is so dependent on it. If we can create a culture where you *can* exist with dignity without a car (I'm fortunate enough to be able to arrange my life so I can, but for others it *would* be, basically, impossible to perform the functions life demands without one), then we could hold people more responsible for being able to wield one safely.

[spindizzy]

A line from the old Police song "Fragile" is playing in my head as I read this thread about this tragedy...

"How fragile we are, how fragile we are."

I was thinking today when the sun was shining on the dirt on my windshield, how difficult it was to see..that I might have difficulty seeing anyone..you know when the sun is at that certain angle and you're squinting even though you have your sunglasses and the visor is down...like Veronica said we are all guilty of putting ourselves and others in dangerous situations...

lives forever altered in a blink of an eye...

[trinena]

Here is a link to Kristy's memorial blog. I posted Matt's link earlier.

http://www.rememberingkristygough.blogspot.com/


I like how it says "Let us remember Kristy not as a victim, but as the young woman who lived an outstanding life."

It also states that "In lieu of flowers, Kristy's family suggests that donations be made in Kristy's name to her favorite charity organization, PETA."

[Trek420]

Amen.

It's not easy to solve, though, because so many people simply can't imagine depriving somebody of the privilege of driving. Our culture is so dependent on it. If we can create a culture where you *can* exist with dignity without a car (I'm fortunate enough to be able to arrange my life so I can, but for others it *would* be, basically, impossible to perform the functions life demands without one), then we could hold people more responsible for being able to wield one safely.

Realizing rural areas and so on, this is not always possible but .... I was at a presentation with an advocate for the disabled and brought up something that was going on with our local transit agency. And Sharon (the advocate) said ":eek: how'd you know about that?"
"I'm a cyclist"
"huh?"
"it's the same issue"
"ooooooh" :)

None of us are promised one more day of health. Whether age, accident, medical condition or even just a one time thing (I'm too tired, drunk ... I should not drive) we all can loose the ability to drive.

So these drivers with a DUI and then they hit or kill someone ... there are plenty of transit options out there.

[ttaylor508]

here is another write up on this tragic accident

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/13/BAEVVIOS9.DTL

[Grog]

"The sheriff's deputy who drove his patrol car head-on into 3 California cyclists, killing 2, will be charged with misdemeanor vehicular manslaughter, according to the San Jose Mercury News. This could result in a maximum sentence of 2 years in prison for the 27-year-old deputy, James Council. He apparently fell asleep at the wheel before hitting the riders. Killed were well-known NorCal racers Kristy Gough, 30, and Matt Peterson, 29. The third rider, 20-year-old Christopher Knapp of Germany, did not suffer life-threatening injuries. A report in cyclingnews.com says that Council had been convicted of street racing in Los Angeles when he was 20 and plea-bargained to have DUI charges dismissed. The Associated Press has reported that there was no evidence of alcohol being involved in the crash that killed the cyclists. The Cupertino City Council has approved a memorial plaque where the accident occurred, which is on one of the area's popular training roads."

[Trek420]

Bump:

http://www.mercurynews.com/localnewsheadlines/ci_12523465?source=rss

[arielmoon]

How very unfortunate for everyone involved!

I am glad they took the deputy from behind the wheel.

[Eden]

did they really though.... they took away his gun and his patrol car, but from what the article says, he probably still has his private license.... unless they expect to make him serve summonses by taking the bus.... Perhaps they should have demoted him and made him serve as a bicycle patrol officer.... (and never get his drivers license back! I totally believe that if you kill/maim negligently with a car you should lose the right to drive forever)

[Zen]

He still has a job with a $55,600 salary.
That's not punishment to me.

[solobiker]

That is just wrong.

[tctrek]

I like the idea of making him work on a bicycle. He can be out there thinking about someone falling asleep and killing him. When you are sleepy and behind the wheel of a car, you darn sure know it and can take the opportunity to stop before you fall completely asleep... to keep driving in that condition is criminal.

[kenyonchris]

did they really though.... they took away his gun and his patrol car, but from what the article says, he probably still has his private license.... unless they expect to make him serve summonses by taking the bus.... Perhaps they should have demoted him and made him serve as a bicycle patrol officer.... (and never get his drivers license back! I totally believe that if you kill/maim negligently with a car you should lose the right to drive forever)

Uh, being a bike officer is NOT a demotion. In fact, it is a PROMOTION.

In the state of Texas, if the cop was found guilty or convicted of manslaughter (which is what this would fall under in THIS state if he recklessly or negligently caused the death of those cyclists) he would LEGALLY no longer be a cop. I am NOT saying that that the death of ANYONE by ANYONE else is not tragic, it is. I am not saying that he was not at fault, I don't know that. But unless a judge and jury found him guilty of it (and, trust me, cops are not immune to both criminal and civil litigation JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE) he has the right to his freedom just like everyone else. Now, if it were MY department, I doubt he would still be employed for whatever policy violation he committed (we can break traffic laws when responding to calls, even if we are NOT running code with lights and sirens, as there are some times that that is necessary) but I didn't read anywhere that he was responding to a call. If he was typing on his computer, operating a cell phone, or just driving like crap in general, he would have been violating policy in my department and be subject to being fired for it regardless of the outcome of criminal and or civil court.

I cycle in the city, I drive in the city, and I am a cop in the city. There are risks associated with all three. Terrible, terrible accidents happen. Cops are human, they make driving errors just as doctors, lawyers and indian chiefs do. We DO talk on our cell phones, consult our computers for dispatch information and drop the dang radio handset and have to fish for it. We swat at bees. And I dare say that every single one of us are aware of the risks we take to ourselves and those we are trying to protect just in the performance of our jobs.

It isn't my job, nor do I have the desire, to defend this particular cop in this particular incident, hopefully if he was negligent, he will suffer the consequences (and there is a difference, legally, between KNOWINGLY, RECKLESSLY, and NEGLIGENTLY) professionally, and, if necessary, criminally. It can't bring back the lives he took, and that is a shame for all involved. Some corrupt departments may protect their own to such an extent, I guess, but with liability being what it is today, I can't imagine that being the case.

MY heart goes out to the cyclists, the families, and the cop who hit them (unless he KNOWINGLY hit them, which I didn't see any evidence of). There before the grace of God go I. And, as you guys are all human here, I hope you never turn around to see why your kid is crying and take your eyes off the road for a minute and hit someone. I hope you never talk on your cell phone, change the CD, swat at a fly, eat a cheeseburger, or spill a cold drink on your lap and mow over someone walking on the shoulder in your moment of inattention. Those things happen, if it happened to me I would NEVER be the same, regardless of whether I were in my personal car or in my patrol vehicle, trying to hurry to help someone in the night. You wouldn't have to take my gun and badge away to make that happen.

[salsabike]

Well said, Chris.

[PamNY]

And, as you guys are all human here, I hope you never turn around to see why your kid is crying and take your eyes off the road for a minute and hit someone. I hope you never talk on your cell phone, change the CD, swat at a fly, eat a cheeseburger, or spill a cold drink on your lap and mow over someone walking on the shoulder in your moment of inattention. Those things happen,

You make a good point, but you should have left out the cellphone and the cheeseburger. I would only use my phone while driving in a true emergency, and I certainly wouldn't eat a sandwich.

Pam

[kenyonchris]

You make a good point, but you should have left out the cellphone and the cheeseburger. I would only use my phone while driving in a true emergency, and I certainly wouldn't eat a sandwich.

Pam

Trust me, you are in the minority. Lots of people eat a cheeseburger while talking on the phone while in the car. I can't stop someone for multitasking while driving, but I see it ALL the time.
Sometimes even burritos.

[tctrek]

MY heart goes out to the cyclists, the families, and the cop who hit them (unless he KNOWINGLY hit them, which I didn't see any evidence of)

He didn't KNOWINGLY hit them because he was asleep and he didn't know anything. But he did KNOWINGLY drive while he was overwhelmingly sleepy. Most people at sometime in their life work long hours, or are on a long road trip and find themselves getting sleepy at the wheel. A reasonable person recognizes that and pulls over and rests. But he kept on driving even though he was sleepy!! IMHO, that's as KNOWINGLY as it gets.

I just don't think this is the same as talking on a cell phone or eating a cheeseburger. Sure, in the blink of an eye you can look away and have an ACCIDENT. You don't have time to react and boom, it's over.

But it takes minutes to fall asleep - you have warning signals that sleep is about to take you over. You roll down your window, turn up the radio, drink coffee, try to prevent yourself from going to sleep. But there comes a time, maybe a minute or two before you actually fall asleep that you KNOW that it is inevitable, that you can't fight it anymore. That's when you pull over. You just don't keep driving when you reach that point.

[snapdragen]

But it takes minutes to fall asleep - you have warning signals that sleep is about to take you over.

Not really, and not for all people. I've known people that can fall asleep in seconds, one friend in particular can drop off without warning. Yes, it's happened while we were in the car, I realized what had happened, woke him up and had him pull over so I could drive.

[Eden]

Trust me, you are in the minority. Lots of people eat a cheeseburger while talking on the phone while in the car. I can't stop someone for multitasking while driving, but I see it ALL the time.
Sometimes even burritos.

I too never, never use a cell phone while driving and certainly wouldn't eat a cheeseburger... I take driving very seriously and I still think anyone who kills out of negligence, whether they fall asleep, are rummaging through a bag or even comforting a crying child (ask MMQFC if it makes here feel any better that the driver that ran a light and hit her was tending to a baby - NO, if you need to do something distracting like that PULL OVER) should lose their license permanently. I know at that point its a little late, but it sure will stop them from multi-tasking while they drive ever again.

(btw I didn't mean to imply that bike cop was a demotion, but rather that if they felt they needed to demote him they could reduce his rank/salary, but a better job for him to do than to sit at a desk and file evidence would be to be put on bike patrol)

Honestly I don't care what profession the guy was in - he did something dangerous and negligent in a car that resulted in two deaths. He shouldn't keep his license. As for his gun.... he didn't do something unsafe with that.... I don't see the need for him to have to turn it in, unless the position that they gave him means he is no longer entitled to carry it.

I don't think police are particularly responsible for dangerous drivers. Their hands are pretty tied - they can't do usually do anything until after there has been an incident and our laws and punishments are very, very weak. We have too easily accepted cars as a way of life, rather than than a serious privilege that can have serious consequences if abused.

[tctrek]

Not really, and not for all people. I've known people that can fall asleep in seconds, one friend in particular can drop off without warning. Yes, it's happened while we were in the car, I realized what had happened, woke him up and had him pull over so I could drive.

That brings up an interesting point... should someone who knows they can fall asleep in seconds without warning take extra special care not to drive when they are tired? It's like, if you have bad vision you know not to drive without your glasses. Why tempt fate and make a careless decision to drive when you haven't had enough rest?

[Eden]

If they are narcoleptic (meaning they can fall asleep at any time without warning) I think it falls under the category of epilepsy and they probably should not be driving at all.....

[kenyonchris]

I too never, never use a cell phone while driving and certainly wouldn't eat a cheeseburger... I take driving very seriously and I still think anyone who kills out of negligence, whether they fall asleep, are rummaging through a bag or even comforting a crying child (ask MMQFC if it makes here feel any better that the driver that ran a light and hit her was tending to a baby - NO, if you need to do something distracting like that PULL OVER) should lose their license permanently. I know at that point its a little late, but it sure will stop them from multi-tasking while they drive ever again.

(btw I didn't mean to imply that bike cop was a demotion, but rather that if they felt they needed to demote him they could reduce his rank/salary, but a better job for him to do than to sit at a desk and file evidence would be to be put on bike patrol)

Honestly I don't care what profession the guy was in - he did something dangerous and negligent in a car that resulted in two deaths. He shouldn't keep his license. As for his gun.... he didn't do something unsafe with that.... I don't see the need for him to have to turn it in, unless the position that they gave him means he is no longer entitled to carry it.

I don't think police are particularly responsible for dangerous drivers. Their hands are pretty tied - they can't do usually do anything until after there has been an incident and our laws and punishments are very, very weak. We have too easily accepted cars as a way of life, rather than than a serious privilege that can have serious consequences if abused.


Are you kidding me? I am totally responsible for dangerous drivers. I stop dangerous drivers that are weaving, speeding, failing to signal, drunk, stoned, or inattentive. If I waited for them to crash, I wouldn't be doing my job. In fact, most accidents are just that...inattention. I put it on my report more than anything else. Very few of them are actually dangerous drivers, a great majority have clean driving records. We CATCH the dangerous drivers because they give us reason to. It is the person driving safely that we can do nothing about until an ACCIDENT, hopefully not a tragic one, happens.

Of course, it is not a right to drive a car. If you drink and drive, I snatch that license away and you have to go to court to get it back. And if you are in prison for manslaughter, it is hard to drive a car. I just think that the judicial system judges, not us.

There are a lot of responsible drivers that have accidents. And yes, should be held accountable for it. That is not the issue. The issue is that he is no more or less responsible than the average person in that it was an ACCIDENT.

[Trek420]

Most people at sometime in their life work long hours, or are on a long road trip and find themselves getting sleepy at the wheel. A reasonable person recognizes that and pulls over and rests. But he kept on driving even though he was sleepy!! IMHO, that's as KNOWINGLY as it gets.

I have a compression fractured spine because of this kinda thing. Long road trip, driver recovering from a cold, taking cold medicine and declining to stop or let the two adult drivers spell him. He drifted off the road, lost control, we flipped over .... for those of you in CA, OR, WA we ended up backwards though right side up on Highway 5. :eek:

Was it his fault or mine for not insisting he pull over & sleep or relinquish the wheel? I don't know. Was it his fault or mine because I had my seatbelt off to be more comfortable sleeping :eek: That's my bad.

You can bet the seat belt goes on before the car keys go in now. :cool:

The driver was my brother.

I've so looooong ago forgiven him. :rolleyes: Instead I feel lucky to be alive, every day is gravy. And in a way the crash is responsible for my cycling because when the Dr. said "you'll have arthritis in your spine soon" I said "oh no I won't" and began working out.

As people work longer hours these days, drive tougher commutes in this economy to reach any job available, and yes ... read TE long into the night there are a lot more tired drivers out there. Driving tired can be as bad as drunk driving from what I've read.

Whatever happens in the court or court of public opinion I hope the officer remembers for the rest of his life he's "Living for 3", himself and the 2 riders lost. This was a great loss for their family and friends and the world. For example I could not help thinking while watching the Olympic women's road cycling that she was supposed to be there. :( and I'm sure her family thought the same.

[kenyonchris]

[QUOTE=tctrek;434781]He didn't KNOWINGLY hit them because he was asleep and he didn't know anything. But he did KNOWINGLY drive while he was overwhelmingly sleepy. Most people at sometime in their life work long hours, or are on a long road trip and find themselves getting sleepy at the wheel. A reasonable person recognizes that and pulls over and rests. But he kept on driving even though he was sleepy!! IMHO, that's as KNOWINGLY as it gets.[quote]

No, it isn't, in the color of the law. Perhaps reckless, but not knowing, if that is honestly the cause of the accident.

I have never fallen asleep at the wheel, knock on wood. But I certainly have been really tired, I work 12 hour shifts, half the year it is 7p-7a. I stop and get a coke or whatever, but I am still out there. God help me if I were caught sleeping, and if I did sleep I might sleep through someone needing my help.
NO ONE IS PERFECT IN STAYING ON 100 PERCENT OF THE TIME!!! If you haven't had a close call, ya'll are better than I am. Usually we wipe our brows, say a prayer, and move on. In this case it was tragic. He should be held accountable for it, but it is far be it from us to sit here and say he is as guilty as someone who aimed for them and ran them down. It doesn't make them less dead, for sure, but it was an accident.
My exasperated sigh is only because I am hearing the person who never talks on the cell phone, the person who is always attentive, the person who says to herself, "say, I am sleepy! I better pull over and get a few winks", and I am telling you that WE (I have not had an accident in over 20 years, knock on wood) are just as likely to be in an accident where we are at fault for driver inattention as that officer was. Hopefully it won't have such a tragic outcome. So I who lives in the glass house shall not throw stones.