Here's one that will take a long time

[Geonz]

(unless it fades away fast)
... Got the following email today replying to my quick question about the Wednesday "inside rides" which had an attached picture of Miss Gulch from the Wizard of Oz on her bike. (Fudge was dropped off at LBS last week.)


S decreed that indoor rides were over as of 3/1 for you and your little dog.

I've been getting drunk on fudge. That stuff is addictive, thank you.

Life is hectic and my Mom has slipped. I leave for CO skiing 3/10 - 17 if her health allows.

FP

just the bulletpoints m'am

So, I replied with bullet points

* hectic schmectic
* I still want to squeeze you in :-)

So. Here's the question... how can a lady get this past emails and bike rides? What are creative ways of creating contact? (He's at the bike shop which is on my way home... except 3 days a week I work 'til its closing time... tho' it's close enough for dropping by at lunch, which I do... but duly note that open flirtation such as the bulleted points is not my strong point... oh, and we *have* shared long conversations and emails along the way, too. )

[mimitabby]

if you're looking for romance, slow down until the crisis with mom has passed.
Just be there and tell him you're a friend and you'll be there.

[Geonz]

I've been a friend and been there for a couple of crises so that's a known entity. We've been friends for oh, about 7 years... and I am thinking that he's recovered from his rather badly broken heart enough so that while the busted part isn't looking a person could slip in a side door to the heart. (How's that Billy Joel song go about the rooms?)

[mimitabby]

if you've been friends for 7 years, you need to let him know you're not just friends! (or you don't want to be just friends)

[Starfish]

Yeah, just ask the guy out. Preferably to something that he cannot really construe as a friend thing, and preferably somewhere you can dress to make it a date...you know, something to let him see you as a hot woman, not just a bike shop friend. Is there an event that requires dressing up, like a community dinner dance, etc? You can be playful about it...acknowledge you need a "real date" for XXXXXX whatever it is.

Ask him out as a date, let him see you looking different than he normally does for a little jolt of chemistry, and give him an opportunity to get close like dancing.

I don't know. Just some thoughts.

[Zen]

I don't remember...:o

[mimitabby]

I don't remember...:o
yeah, tell me about it.
(married 30 years, never "dating" again)

[Geonz]

I wish somebody I knew could be a fly on the wall - I would gladly (okay, not *gladly*:rolleyes: ) file this under "friends" if, indeed, that's what it's meant to be. We're each, however, just socially unique enough so that it's harder to read each other. I paid a completely gratuitous visit to the LBS and we had a lovely time folding and unfolding that Dahon :D Any flies on the wall, however, have not spoken to me about what it looked like to them ;)
Suggestions that we head soemwhere after a ride, etc. have generally gotten "too busy" negatives. It's been a while since he asked me out - we did several concerts together a while ago, but not as dates. However, since we communicate a lot more now than we did then - he lets me know when he's going out of town, as well as at least *some* stuff happening in his life, and oh, what he thinks of this or that article in the New York Times as it relates to life and death and the pursuit of happiness - I suspect/hope that's because if he asked me out now it would be a date.
Suggestions don't have to have anything to do with anything like dating - I'd like to be creative!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Geez this seems awfully complicated! If you have communicated so much with him already....why don't you just ask if he'd be interested in exploring a romantic relationship?
Worse that could happen is that he'll tell you yes or no- which is what you want to know, right? :)

[Zen]

Lisa has a good point. Sometime guys are either just a little dense or frozen with fear.

[Starfish]

Suggestions that we head soemwhere after a ride, etc. have generally gotten "too busy" negatives. It's been a while since he asked me out

You know, I hate to say it, but if he isn't taking you up on offers to do stuff together, I'm thinking he might not be smitten... :(

But, don't listen to me, I'm an idiot. ;)

[teigyr]

Hmmm. I will have to ask DH what he thinks but rest assured that names will be changed to protect the innocent.

My initial reaction is that some guys (DH included) are semi-dense. It's not an insult, it just is what it is. You have to be blunt and put it out there or else they don't notice. I also know, however, that some guys know when you "like" them and instead of dealing with it (ie acknowledging it and saying they don't feel the same way or simply acting on it), they act like scared little bunnies. Not to be judgmental, women do it too :o Speaking for myself, if I feel pressure, I act in non-dignified ways.

So, p'haps if you two went out as friends and you asked "have you ever thought...." in such a way as to not make him feel horrible if he said no and your friendship was left intact. While initial impression seems like if he was into you he wouldn't always be busy but then again, you never know. I have had male friends that I had THE hugest crushes on and bailed out on "let's hang out" not-dates because I didn't feel like it or was tired but had I known they liked me, I would've gone for sure.

Lastly, maybe he never DID think about more but it's not to say he wouldn't if it were to be brought up.

So in a roundabout way, I think I covered all the bases and answered nothing. I think though if he hasn't understood subtle by now, it's time to step it up a bit as long as it's in a non-pressured way. I'll see what DH thinks though. While he'd never post here, this is one of the times where a male perspective might be warranted. I will report back.

[KnottedYet]

I am socially inept. Kinda like a guy. (but cuter :D) If I had a crush on someone and they asked me on a date, I'd panic and say "no." (even though I wanted to say "yes")

So... maybe you shouldn't take "no" as an answer. Or maybe you should take the whole question out of the realm of words. (but slowly, so as not to frighten the timid wild creature)

[Tuckervill]

But don't put all your hopes in the one basket. It could ruin a beautiful friendship, if he perceived you as desperate--or more likely, made him terrified to hurt your feelings by saying no (most guys worth their salt are terrified to hurt someone's feelings and it could make him panic and avoid you for a long time). I wouldn't force a date on him, either, with the dressing up and all that.

Just bring it up in conversation. Be who you are. Be true to the relationship you've already built.

Karen

[KnottedYet]

Be true to the relationship you've already built.

Karen

Oh, Tuckervill, you are wise!

[Wahine]

Maybe you could convince him to take a bike touring weekend with you and just where things go?

[Starfish]

I wouldn't force a date on him, either, with the dressing up and all that.

I don't think you can force someone to go on a date, dress up or any other kind. You just ask, and they either go or they don't. It is up to them.

But, that really is what it comes down to...all you can do is ask for what you want, or make your feelings known one way or another (in a way that works for you), and then let go of the outcome.

And, as far as "ruining a friendship," the risk is either worth it to you or it isn't. You could lose or strain something you have now, and be sorry. You could gain something beautiful, and be contented. (ETA...or experience a gazillion other possible outcomes that you cannot predict.) Only you know where you currently fall on this spectrum of risk.

I really do wish you peacefulness. I know that when feelings are involved, these are not easy questions. <insert gentle smile>

[Zen]

So in a roundabout way, I think I covered all the bases and answered nothing. :D

How about this-
would you rather regret something you did do or something you didn't do?

[lph]

aaah - I had that as my guideline for a while - and let's say I certainly regret some things I did... :D If you're somewhat the reckless type, you'd better have a bad memory.

Joking aside, I think Tuckervill put it beautifully. You have to be true to yourself and the relationship that's already there. I'd say skip all the careful flirtation if you're actually kinda sick of it. If you can be honest and straightforward without seeming desperate I'd say your chances are good of both getting an honest answer and keeping him as a friend. You want to tell him you're interested, but also that you're not going to shrivel up and die if he says no.

But it would help if you were somewhere conducive to this kind of conversation. And yes - some of us put this a lot better in, uh, body language than in words.

Scary stuff, this. But hey - it's what makes the world go round, right? :p

[Geonz]

Those are words to keep going back to... because yes, we have a wonderful relationship, and I don't get that close to people easily. And the thoughts here have helped me realize that yea, the bottom line here is I want to figure out how to cross a physical threshold and/or I really wish I could translate the assorted signals so I could have half a guess as to where he felt about that... except that I'm reasonably, positively certain that... he is totally and completely up in the air about it and wafts back and forth. (We had a completely hysterical conversation once with another friend, getting the bikes off his car to go for a metric century. The other friend was having trouble getting her wheel off by herself and so he & I had this banter about having had entirely too much practice getting things off by ourselves and for at least part of the conversation she was trying to make sense of that in a bicycling context...)
Yes (per the advice of another friend and just natural sense), I've been doin' my darndest to have casual contact but the fact is I am a *practiced* klutz so even folding bicycles in close proximity ... I'm mroe concerned with not mashing my fingers in a hinge than the odd caress ;)
Much appreciation felt for the kindness & encouragement.

[teigyr]

:D

How about this-
would you rather regret something you did do or something you didn't do?

That makes my head hurt. I had an initial response but then thought more and wafted and then thought more and went back to my initial. It's early :D

DH was about as circular as I am. He says the variables are: he knows and doesn't feel the same way, he knows and DOES feel the same way but doesn't know how to initiate it, he's thought about it but doesn't know your feelings (and his are either pro or con), and he has never thought about it.

DH thought it could be brought up a few ways that would allow the relationship to stay intact. One way could be "hey, have you ever thought about..." or the more evil way of setting up a story of "I was talking to <insert name here> and were discussing the perfect traits in a person I'm dating. I kept coming back to you. Have you ever thought of...?" I don't like the second way because I'm bad at making up stories. DH thought the R word (relationship) could be brought up because there is a relationship already.

I think no risk no gain but you have to be prepared for all eventual outcomes. For me, at least, the known is generally better than the unknown.

Good luck though and please keeping posting as to what happens! Re the "accidental" physical contact...I keep thinking of the H.S. days. You know, when the guy yawns and puts his arm around you or the old "I have to roll up the car window" maneuver. Then again, I guess most car windows don't "roll up" anymore :confused::o

[Zen]

I keep coming back to "well, there's always alcohol" ;)

[Geonz]

That is absolutely, very much the kind of tactic I'm thinking of. In Vino Veritas. NOthing on a "have some madeira, my dear" scale, but ;) ;):cool:

I've been subtly applying the suggestion machine in my household, which is not to be confused with my house, which is occupied by the mom and four sons who are grandsons to the couple whose house I"m staying in while their daughter figures out where to go since it's not back to her husband. (I stayed with them for several years when I first came out here... it *is* an act of generosity but a reciprocal one.) Before her heart surgery they'd entertained some... tho' now the oft-visiting grandkids use up most of that energy. Except that they like this guy rather a lot, too and he doesn't really require entertainment energy. And this winter has just sucked for stuff like that... and right now the grandkids are passing around the flu so everybody including mom is sick so the healthy ones get dropped off at grandpop's so everybody's exhausted. But somehow I shall figure out a way to have this fellow over and the wine will flow. I even think my tolerance might be higher ;)

[jillm]

Hi Sue,

I've been following your thread like it's a soap opera! You know I don't post much but I had to get in on this.

How about one of these days when it's warmed up some, take a ride out to Sleepy Creek Vineyards over in the Oakwood / Fairmount area. They've got a little pond, you can have a glass of wine...there are a couple of kitties moseying about. It's a lovely place. (btw, Little Woody is my favorite, Dreamer is a good white, the others are too sweet for my taste, but still good) So have a glass of wine and pass him the note "will you go will me, check yes or no"... Is there a grown-up version of that?

You've met Geoff. We were platonic friends for 10 years and then something happened. It was just the right time for both of us, and we've been together for 6 years now. I see your situation as similar. Maybe the timing is right for you.

Good luck!
Jill

[Geonz]

thanx :)

I had an odd little inspiration last night out at the newly opened MOnical's, where our waiter was an imported manager from out west (Peoria or something :) ) and solicitous as all get out, sitting and chatting with us for a while... I was thinking "Save me from extroverts :rolleyes:" - tho' he wasn't boring; he was as good a listener as talker. Everybody had gone and I was putting on the helmet, and he just gave a little touch on the arm as he passed by and said "and be careful, okay?" and it gave me the warm fuzzies, 'cause somehow he managed to be tender without invading my personal space.

So I went out to test drive that Dahon Speed P8 which I am going to adopt, thank you, and psyched myself up to relax and steal some of that natural openness. It'll take practice, but I think I did that silly nonverbal communication better as he went out to see his mom.

And of course this adoption will take a while. I have to go for lessons in folding, get a speedometer put on it... and then get the guys to help me figure out how to get the folding bike on the Xtracycle :) :)

[Geonz]

HIs mom passed away Wednesday night. Now to write on that card why I love his mom even though I never met her. The visitation & funeral are 130 miles away :( (even if I had a car...) I'm thinking of hand-delivering something to his back doorstep (where he'd go from the garage) for when he's come back.

[Starfish]

Geonz, if this guy is quite special, his mom very likely had a lot to do with that.

I think your idea of putting something there for him for when he gets home from the funeral is a good one.

I lost my mom last year, and out of numbness and self-protection, I held it together through a SRO funeral. After having to keep everything going through her care and the arrangements, and with my dad...it took a long time for me to unwind at the end of that day, and really let go like I needed to.

I had a dear cousin sit up with me until almost midnight, when the dam burst. It really helped me un-freeze to have a tender presence there for that. And, my mom was my best friend. You don't get over that loss in a hurry. For me, the small remembrances here and there in daily life, and the small gestures from my friends, letting me know they realized I wasn't "over it," as time went on, really helped (and still help).

Every person grieves differently and needs something different. In my case, I needed the TLC after (and ongoing) when the hoopla of funeral and condolences died down. That's just me. It took one of my brothers months to admit how hard he was grieving, though.

The hardest thing for me was when people stopped asking about it...as if it was all done. But, for my brother, he wasn't ready to feel his feelings yet, and it just annoyed him when people asked. People are so different.

But, if you care, show it. Just be authentic. He is lucky to have a friend like you.

[lph]

Starfish's point was good, that his mom helped make him who he is.

Depending og how close he was to his mother and his own personality, he may not grieve that openly or want to share much. But he will feel the loss a lot more around holidays and typical family events, especially the first year. Remembering to ask him how he's doing around times like these, when everybody else has stopped asking, is maybe one of the most thoughtful things you can do to help.

[Geonz]

You can't knkow how much this helps :) ... he's one of these (like me) very tactical and cool and unemotional guys - but not really (like me ;) . Not that he represses it; he just doesn't talk about it much or show it often. Yet, basically... if you know how to ask, it's there - and when I make sure to remember that without overthinking it, good things have happened. So... card, foodstuffs, a wine he rather likes, and... no, not a phone number to call, a phone call. Both. (Um, one ridiculous complication is that I have an inexplicable resistance to making phone calls. It's as if I didn't know the things were invented; I don't think of it. Good grief :rolleyes::confused: ) He's out of town but the man does have a cell phone.

[KnottedYet]

Call him and leave him a message just letting him know you're thinking of him. In all likelihood his cell phone is off right now and you will get voicemail. When my dad died, it was message like that which really helped me.

Nevermind the romantic stuff in the background, he's probably not thinking about it right now, just call the guy as a friend. Overcome your resistance to making phone calls, even if only this one time. Losing a parent is devastating and numbing and overwhelming. He may really need to just know someone is thinking of him right now.

[MM_QFC!]

Call him and leave him a message just letting him know you're thinking of him. In all likelihood his cell phone is off right now and you will get voicemail. When my dad died, it was message like that which really helped me.

Nevermind the romantic stuff in the background, he's probably not thinking about it right now, just call the guy as a friend. Overcome your resistance to making phone calls, even if only this one time. Losing a parent is devastating and numbing and overwhelming. He may really need to just know someone is thinking of him right now.

Your advice is right on, Knott (IMHO) and I think that the "never mind" comment is key, in that, if I wasn't already in a relationship when my Mom passed away, there's no way that anything other than a caring, friendly message would help. I'd recommend keeping his state of mind and feelings uppermost in your considerations. If he's dealing with this really hard hit ("Devastating and numbing and overwhelming", as Knot counsels - aren't anywhere near overstating it ), arrangements, family, longtime friends in the area, it may not be a good idea to be calling right now anyway. If there's a way to leave a caring 'back door' message, meaning that you can do it through cell phone voicemail and not have his phone ring at inconvenient or inappropriate times (especially if he's in another time zone and in the middle of a meal, sleeping, at a somber meeting, etc), that would be ideal. Leaving a note and friendly care package at his place sounds great, as he may not be up to answering his door and receiving even friendly visitors for a while.
It's hard, I know...best of luck to you...

[Geonz]

Oh, I am much, much better at 'back door' things than direct contact ;) We would not be as close as we are if it weren't for e-mail, for sure. (But what do you say next?)

THanx bunches... I do remember what it's like to lose parents.

[Geonz]

Welp, now that I'm back, it's raining 'cause I called in a few weather goddess favors. (We were supposed to get 2-3 inches of rain between last night and today; it's done little more than drizzle.) A cinnamon crunch scone and a tart cherry scone (because!) are ensconced in a coffee tin, and a bottle of that Australian wine he likes (that's on sale for $6/bottle, so this isn't a "big deal") is in a black bag with a purple card that I'm pretty sure won't blow away, next to that partial case of Sam Adams sitting on his back porch, "just in case you're coming home to a feeling-empty house" and a few odd tendernesses, as well as letting him know I'll prob'ly be by to pick up that Dahon tomorrow...

[Tuckervill]

Niiiiiiiice.

Karen

[Geonz]

Now for a glass of wine for me :)

[Geonz]

NOw it's down to that bike shop to buy a little red bike. (No response about the care package but he does know he'll see me in person...)

[Wahine]

Nice work on the care package!!

[Zen]

NOw it's down to that bike shop to buy a little red bike.

Boyohboy, you're really going all out to get next to this guy, aren't you ;)

[Wahine]

NOw it's down to that bike shop to buy a little red bike.

Is that like the little red dress that every woman should have but in a different context?

[Zen]

I think she's going to the bike shop to get lemonaid :D

[Geonz]

Hey, if it comes to naught, I"ll still have a sweet bike :)

PIctures at http://www.wetmores.net/dahon/dahon.html - and actually more pictures than it appears, I believe. If you click one of the thumbnails and then do "next" it goes through more pictures than there are thumbnails.

I wasn't particularly encouraged this evening, tho'. Score a few on the "welp, he's probably not interested" side. [snip Too Much Information on the other side] I honestly don't think I'm "reaching" when I say there have been lots of indications that there's chemistry... but I can't really tell.
And tonight whilst I was arranging bungee cords (he'd been helping me, and I was cursing being totally ensconced in layers ... see pics... but enjoying close proximity... but a customer needed something only he had authority to do) he took a phone call to the tone of "you coming tonight? ... bye bye..."
...which, last year, around this time, a biking buddy had asked me if he was dating somebody and I"d not hedged but just emailed and asked... and first he answered coyly so I explained that while I'd kept my romantic feelings at bay while he got over what's-her-name, and while I regularly reminded myself that he'd probably find somebody who 'needed' him more than I knew how to portray, that actually it made a difference to me. To which he assured me twice that my friend had seen me at his brother's house (and his brother's house happens to be on my friend's jogging route and yes, tha'ts where he was seen) and that there was no mystery.
So it might be time to remind him that he'd better tell me when he finds somebody so I can share his joy and get over my grief... but now isn't the time 'cause the Triduum is when I just sing and pray and do my own grieving for my folks.
And another part of this is that the last time I got my heart sprained, I was asking the ceiling "why do we do this? Why do we try to make freindships into something else?" and ... the danged ceiling answered. "Because it's human to be seeking the Perfect Love" (which is something I'd heard at a retreat but forgotten)... "and ... you already have it." And I got all filled with it and the sadness flat out disappeared. No, really. LIke what they try to do in Touched By an Angel, which I'd seen the day before so maybe it was being created by my own consciousness...but even now... that is still there. It was there when I was riding the trainer next to this guy and saying to the ceiling fan, "do you really want to go there?" and the ceiling fan calmly informed me that in fact, I should just keep loving because at the end of the day, I would go home and be loved. I don't know what "day" and what "home" the ceiling fan was referring to... but when ceiling fans talk, I listen... )

(But he did thank me for the 'homecoming gift,' saying he'd had a little too much of the wine... we had a good chat... and he has a habit of platonically going out... I've been there...)

Time for bed here ;)

[teigyr]

I am sorry. It sounds not so promising.

You're probably a nicer person than I am but the way I figure it is if someone isn't interested in me in *that* way, they're not really worth my energy. I'm pretty blunt and outspoken and trust me, I've intimidated males but I always knew it wouldn't intimidate the right one.

I'd say to be good to yourself and maybe let him know that you'll be there if he needs you but also keep in mind that you are the most important person in this equation.

Just my 2 cents tho. Relationships are funny things.

[Geonz]

Thanx :) He *is* an awful lot like my brother ;)

[KnottedYet]

Well, maybe not *this* one, but maybe the *next* one!

[teigyr]

Well, maybe not *this* one, but maybe the *next* one!

Exactly. Life likes to throw us challenges to make sure that we truly appreciate It when it happens.

[Geonz]

Yea, I was feeling grumpy riding home last night and then oh, ever so maligned 'cause my friends' grandkids were at the house and gosh, I wanted to go in and have a pity party but good grief, four boys aged 3-11... I heard myself answer "No, I'm not going to show you how it works now," and then figured that was just silly, that I could entertain these guys for a few minutes and get 'em excited about a bicycle. And then I went in and confirmed that my silly computer is still belly up, so I couldn't journal out my poor pathetic self, and anyway I do this chat every Wednesday which I had to do on the slow computer in Pete's office, and... and... sent a venting email about it to my guy 'cause he knows the details of my not-too-much-longer domestic tribulations (end of this semester) and I just sort of phrased things in a way (and he *is* verbal and picks up subtleties, except when he doesn't) to imply that yes, I'd resigned myself to spinsterhood, as it were ;) but that I'd have a nice red bike to ride in the morning that would get people smiling at me, and I'd need to get tubes for the tires 'cause I'd forgotten.

But I never did get the pity party, which is better for the world anyway ;)

... but this mornign I woke up and the universe was still basically decent for me. I just felt better. And since I've made a point to remind myself not to build castles in the air, there was only a little shanty shack that had crumbled. I rode in early and got in a few extra miles (Okay! I also want to catch up with HOward again... he's got 500 miles on me but that's about what he had on me last year...) spinning that cute little red thing. So I sent out another email saying equilibrium had been restored and that welp, I'd figured out a plan of attack for the other Looming THing which is grants ending in the fall and that at least I knew I could travel lightly.

Went down to the LBS to get tubes for the thing. OF course the guys gathered 'round to ask about it (it's the first folder they've sold), and we chatted... and out comes my guy and is ever so solicitous & goes & gets the tubes for me and checked the tyre pressure... but in that "we're special friends" way (and rang me up at wholesale, not retail).

I'll get my lemonaid when it's the right tiem for lemonaid :)

[Geonz]

Snork.... you know that bluegrass song about...

To make a medium story short, this a.m.'s email to me and another person about a family gathering for Easter and birthdays.
The person being spoken to so tenderly Wednesday was his sister, just like in the bluegrass song.
Oh! and it's H-405, tho' the weather channel says Howard will have fantabulous weather this week so I expect to lose a little ground to that self-employed can-ride-in-the-middle-of-the-workday cad ;) :D ... but I *have* already suggested some pre-season bike rides to that certain someone...

(and unlike the 'tragic romance' song, he - whether he knew what he was doing or not - made sure I knew who she was.)

[Geonz]

Welp, just to bring this topic back to this thread... thanks for the thoughts that have oh, thinned out some of my barriers and let me consider that it might be easier to get through mine and use the momentum to break down somebody else's then it is to try to simply wave harder from the other side of the wall and say "climb over! climb over!"