"Women who ride"... on the sidewalk...

[Geonz]

I'm still occasionally perusing the "women who ride" site... and today's post reminded me how much educating is necessary.
http://womenwhoride.typepad.com/marie/ - Marie finds riding with traffic hard to understand and feels that the sidewalk is safer. Kudos at her for getting "out there" - I *loved* her story about riding with her grandson. But...

I know these are exactly the folks who - okay, let me exaggerate a little here - cringingly eke themselves out to that far right part of the curb, but they are "in the road"... and because they're hugging the side going 8 miles an hour, terrified... cars are passing closer because of their lane position, and of course they're where there is a ton of debris and potholes so they're *having* to weave and wobble... probably get right-hooked a few times...
... and then figure the rest of us out there are just so brave and daring!

Now, I know at some point it just makes sense to figure some people should stick to the paths... but I dunno, is there sometimes a way to get people past their first impressions?

I know yesterday, I was doing serious mental work keeping myself from waxing cowardly in the slush - my brain *knew* that the best thing to do was to keep on plowing (I have a 50 pound bike with studded tires. I wasn't slipping **at all.** It was simply the idea that this Was Not Smooth Pavement that terrified me.) By the end... I was better at it. And a better bike handler for it. How to pass that on...?

[mimitabby]

yeah, some people, but not other people. Some are not going to change, no matter how much enlightenment strikes them. Others will.

[Beane]

I have a 50 pound bike with studded tires.

EEEEK!! :eek:

[Melalvai]

Sometimes just telling them will do it. The other day I was talking to my former PhD advisor who lives just down the street from where I do now, and he was horrified that I ride on that particular road, it's so narrow and curvy. Well, I don't routinely ride the curvy bit, just the part to get me to the main streets, but I have ridden the curvy bit, and I explained to him that although it is counterintuitive the thing to do is ride out in the middle of the lane--not the middle of the road--middle of the lane. Cars will see you, they will not hit you, even though yes, they go way too fast on that curve. They won't hit you. They just won't. But if you hug the edge, they won't see you, and will pass too close or even hit you.

He listened and just said "Really? I didn't know that. I wouldn't have thought so." But he believed me because, despite that I was his graduate student, I have been riding the streets of this city daily for a year.

[Geonz]

That's my hope... I *do* know people can be educated, sometimes.... some of us all the time ;) ... but it's one thing to accept that you know what you're doing - it's another thing to go out and believe it enough to *do* it ... and it explains a *lot* about oh, drivers' attitudes, and city planners' attitudes if htey haven't learned it themselves. I'm glad one prof has been told and is listening! THe roads are a little bit safer :D

[IFjane]

EEEEK!! :eek:

I agree, Beane! We all need to watch out if Geonz is heading our way on that thing (and she's mad!)....:eek::D;)

[SouthernBelle]

I suppose several things are counterintuitive, like taking the lane when you are going to turn left.

I've never been that afraid of riding road, which may demonstrate a lack of good sense. But there are roads which I seldom, or never, ride. So I do demonstrate at least a modicum of good sense.

[Geonz]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_uIx21aoV8n8/RxV2mcD36oI/AAAAAAAAAQs/2jHRlp3dZVs/s320/Gulch.JPG

They don't call me the spinster for nothin'!!!

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

http://forums.teamestrogen.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2515&d=1169066862

[mimitabby]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_uIx21aoV8n8/RxV2mcD36oI/AAAAAAAAAQs/2jHRlp3dZVs/s320/Gulch.JPG

They don't call me the spinster for nothin'!!!

hey she was riding on the road. I always identified with her!! :D

[OakLeaf]

hey she was riding on the road. I always identified with her!! :D

I always identified most with her when she was riding cackling through the sky!

[KnottedYet]

She was my favorite. Glinda and Dorothy just irritated me.

[three]

Not to be too harsh, but I feel like cyclists who ride on the sidewalk do a great disservice to the rest of us - for a number of reasons. And, it is also horribly ironic behavior, since those who do it often do so under the guise that it is safer - when, in fact, a substantially greater percentage of bicycle accidents happen as a result of pedestrian traffic than automobile traffic.

Sorry, but I cringe when I see cyclists on the sidewalks in town. It bothers me that Trek would allow one of their 'Women Who Ride' representatives to ride in this manner. This is what I would call a prime opportunity for education.

[OakLeaf]

+1 Three.

I particularly hate the multi-use paths we have in Florida that are built alongside through streets, sometimes crossing from one side to the other. It really blurs the distinction between sidewalks and multi-use trails, encourages drivers (and riders!) to believe that bikes don't belong on the road, and creates extremely unsafe crossings. It's a particular problem for roadies using the same streets, avoiding the trails for all the same reasons roadies usually avoid them (unpredictable animals and pedestrians, very slow speed, lots of broken glass). I sure don't have the energy to become an activist, but I wish someone would do something to raise cycling safety around here.

[KnottedYet]

Do you have a Critical Manners ride near you? (kind of the opposite of a Critical Mass)

A bunch of polite cyclists on the road, following every rule and signalling every move, can do quite a lot to raise safety awareness among drivers and riders.

[Geonz]

Welp, I got a good response from my comment on the blog, and from the beginning she didn't say she rode on the sidewalk; that she rode on bike paths, but just that she *felt* safer on the sidewalk... and that the whole thing was counterintuitive since it was the opposite for running. I got the feeling she was simply being honest about her qualms about what experts had told her - perhaps experts from Trek ;)

[divingbiker]

http://bp3.blogger.com/_uIx21aoV8n8/RxV2mcD36oI/AAAAAAAAAQs/2jHRlp3dZVs/s320/Gulch.JPG

They don't call me the spinster for nothin'!!!

When some friends and I did the Bicycle Ride Across Nebraska a couple of years ago, we called ourselves the "Bitter Barren Spinsters" and had t-shirts made with this on the front. People either loved it or they didn't get it.

5517

[Geonz]

That is **too** funny. I'm going to use that image ;)

[Zen]

She was my favorite. Glinda and Dorothy just irritated me.

Yeah, they irritate me too. I'm a big fan of those flying monkeys.

[redrhodie]

Those monkeys are creepy.

Last time we saw the movie, BF said "Look, she's riding an Eddy Merckx!"

Ummmm, I don't look that much like her :mad:! Well, maybe a little :cool:

[SouthernBelle]

Ya know, that is a nice looking bike. Wish it would turn up like Peewee's did.

[la bicicleta]

What is everyones pet peeve about riding a bicycle on the sidewalk? Why is it frowned upon?:confused:

[KnottedYet]

What is everyones pet peeve about riding a bicycle on the sidewalk? Why is it frowned upon?:confused:

Because statistically it is the most dangerous place for bikes.

[Trek420]

Problem is that sidewalks don't go one forever.:) Sooner or later you're a bike where a ped should be.

Cyclists on the sidewalk cross driveways and parking lot entrances where drivers exiting or entering don't expect cyclists to be .... and we get hit.

Riders on sidewalks get to intersections and zwoop onto the crosswalk where drivers expect a pedestrian ....and we get hit.

Cyclists on sidewalks encounter pedestrians and decide zwoop off the sidewalk like a pedestrian jaywalking out between parked cars .... we get hit.

Attentive drivers scan the sidewalk at turns and driveways for pedestrians. I've had it happen where I'm looking for foot traffic, see someone on the sidewalk and make a turn with the conditioned reaction "they are on the sidewalk, they are going ____ speed" :eek: It's a cyclist :eek:

And equally important bikes on the sidewalk are to pedestrians what cars are to us. We should be sensitive to how difficult it can be for elderly, disabled, people with kids or strollers or dogs or cats on a leash ;) .... it can be hard on them when bikes are on the sidewalk.

[DirtDiva]

In this part of the world it is illegal to ride on the footpath if your wheels are over a certain diameter (I think it's 16 inches..?).

[Trek420]

Well, I forgot to specify that. If you send little Robbie or Suzie down the block to play with little Florence and Lorenzo they should be on the sidewalk (and walk their bike in the crosswalk). I think we all expect that.

But I figure once you've learned to drive .... ;) :p

[SouthernBelle]

Essentially a bike is a vehicle, we just happen to be the motor.

Vehicles go on the road.

[Geonz]

It's *very* loosely analogical to 'separate but equal' schools. Sidewalks aren't appropriate facilities for most reasons to ride a bicycle, yet the non-cycling culture doesn't want to be inconvenienced by our existence and thus relegates us there.

[Trek420]

Essentially a bike is a vehicle, we just happen to be the motor.

Vehicles go on the road.

Yes :D Who here has the footer "It's my lane, it's my lane too, It's my lane" :D

We can't cover everything that happens, and I don't think this is anything like segregation. First of all a lot of this we riders do to ourselves. A lot of what I see here anyway is riders riding the same way they'd drive. Each time I bike to work someone says as if in one breath "good for you! I wish I could do that. Oh those rackin' frackin' riders I see :mad:"

I say "You're not seeing me or my friends running lights riding the wrong way etc. We're the good cyclists. The reason you don't see us is your first lesson in biking to work is: think sides streets, parallel roads, off the busiest streets. It's actually faster, more relaxing and scenic, more fun. Ride where the cars aren't."

It's like a light goes off over their head "Oh, I could ride, I don't have to bike down that busy road".

If there isn't an "official" bike route or path, and sometimes even if there is I make my own by finding the best side streets etc.

Now, if I can just get people to stop putting tennis balls in their spokes. Why do they do that???? Don't they know it un-trues the wheel? Is it for visibility?? Don't they know there are lights??? They are not playing tennis, I never see these tennis ball toting riders with tennis equipment or wearing white shorts.

I just don't understand them. :confused: ;) :rolleyes:

[SouthernBelle]

I have never seen tennis balls in spokes!

They are flourescent?!

[shootingstar]

The reason you don't see us is your first lesson in biking to work is: think sides streets, parallel roads, off the busiest streets. It's actually faster, more relaxing and scenic, more fun. Ride where the cars aren't."

It's like a light goes off over their head "Oh, I could ride, I don't have to bike down that busy road".

If there isn't an "official" bike route or path, and sometimes even if there is I make my own by finding the best side streets etc.



If a person lives in an area where cycling routes have not been suggested/promoted to people living locally, then it may require helping a person to rethink their streets . Sometimes it's a just an extra 2-3 blocks away to just to remove oneself from high volume fast car routes.

[Geonz]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gcziko/sets/72057594104077802/

Here's a photo essay of safety hazards on our bike path system. (By the way, at least here, doing this gets noticed by planners & powers that be.)

Some of these photos would still be considered almost bucolic to someone drivingt by. Happy people meandering to their destinations! It's a totally different feeling when you're on your bike actually trying to *get* somewhere.

[Trek420]

I have never seen tennis balls in spokes!

They are flourescent?!

Yes! Maybe they are minty tennis balls for dogs :confused: You know, chased by a dog, reach down into your wheel, grab a tennis ball, throw it to the dog :confused: :eek:

[nancielle]

Cycling on the sidewalk here is prohibited (as it is elsewhere) but I can understand why some people feel safer on the sidewalk. I live on a side street a stone's throw from the downtown area. Not everyone on this street has off-street parking so the street is lined with cars. That's forcing the cyclist to ride way too close to passing cars (and way too many drivers think that this street is a practice stretch for Indy or NASCAR.) Now with the potholes (some I've not so lovingly named "Jaws" :eek: ) and the general disrepair of roads that emerge after a snowy/icy winter, many still sporting icy slush, I fear for some of the cyclists I do see on the road. That being said, I do understand the safety concerns for cyclists and pedestrians on sidewalks.

I've never seen the tennis balls on spokes either.:confused:

[Eden]

I have never seen tennis balls in spokes!

They are flourescent?!

ummmmm how does one put a tennis ball on ones spokes and have it actually fit through the fork...... I don't think I have that kind of clearance on any of my bikes - not even my cross bike....

[Trek420]

We're talking mountain bikes, usually box store bikes. OK, next time I see one I'll take a picture or better yet ask the rider "why you doing this?"

[Eden]

We're talking mountain bikes, usually box store bikes. OK, next time I see one I'll take a picture or better yet ask the rider "why you doing this?"

ahhhh - yes you could fit a tennis ball through a suspension fork. Maybe its like putting beads on the spokes of your kiddie bike? Do they fly out to the rim when the wheel is turning?

[elk]

I fear i've stumbled upon that place where I don't know what it is I don't know...

Can I gather from this thread that bikes belong on the road...not on sidewalks... bit not on mixed use paths either?

And I sense an impatience with those who venture out into the road without boldness.

I want to be "enlightened"......

And is this related to the argument about whether or not there should be dedicated bike lanes vs cyclists should gain the skills to claim rights to the same road as cars?

[Eden]

I fear i've stumbled upon that place where I don't know what it is I don't know...

Can I gather from this thread that bikes belong on the road...not on sidewalks... bit not on mixed use paths either?

And I sense an impatience with those who venture out into the road without boldness.

I want to be "enlightened"......

And is this related to the argument about whether or not there should be dedicated bike lanes vs cyclists should gain the skills to claim rights to the same road as cars?

If you are referring to Geonz's post about the dangers of bike paths, I don't think she is arguing that bikes don't belong on mixed use paths, but rather that one should not feel safe just because you are on a path and not the road. Often those paths are so poorly designed that they pose more of a danger to users than good vehicular use of the roads. Bike lanes also have to be well desiged or they can be more dangerous used than not. Around here we have way too many bikes lanes with parking on the right - riding in the bike lane puts you squarely in the door zone..... not good. I'm happy to use bike facilities when they exist, but only if they are well designed, safe and actually go where I'm headed. I'm also not afraid of riding in traffic and being assertive about claiming my rights to be on the road.

You are probably right that you sense some impatience with people who do venture out on the roads without boldness though. People who are very meek about traffic can make it worse for the rest of us... If motorists begin to expect that bicycles are going to hug the curb or are going to use cross walks rather than make a left by using the left turn lane that's bad. I can probably dig up some vitriolic threads from a local forum arguing about the exact meaning of our traffic laws and whether or not cyclists are obligated to get out of the way of motorists and just how far to the right is reasonable....

[elk]

thanks, Eden. That helps.
Makes me think I otta take some kind of class or seminar or practicum on road riding...

Any suggestions about where to do that in Portland?

[Melalvai]

Any suggestions about where to do that in Portland?
Try League of American Bicyclists (http://www.bikeleague.org/resources/index.php). They list courses by state.

[Thorn]

People who are very meek about traffic can make it worse for the rest of us...

And that is the crux of the problem. There is this spectrum of road riders from the overly meek and dangerous to the assertive to the overly aggressive and dangerous. Both ends of the spectrum make it hard on the middle ground assertive.

When DH and I first started riding he would freak out when I would pull into the left hand lane to turn. He was of the meek rider end of the spectrum and, I think, thought of me as I do the riders who run red lights. It took a long time to convince him that being assertive and making your intentions obvious to car drivers is not only right, but actually more polite.

[PscyclePath]

I fear i've stumbled upon that place where I don't know what it is I don't know...

Can I gather from this thread that bikes belong on the road...not on sidewalks... bit not on mixed use paths either?

And I sense an impatience with those who venture out into the road without boldness.

I want to be "enlightened"......

And is this related to the argument about whether or not there should be dedicated bike lanes vs cyclists should gain the skills to claim rights to the same road as cars?

Sidewalks are for pedestrians, people who walk as a means of locomotion. Cyclists ride on the street, where they are usually safe from pedestrians.

Pedestrians operate without rules, except for a general admonition not to jaywalk. They can change speed or direction (often both) in a single step, on a whim, without notice. Even when the cyclist tries to follow traffic laws on the street, the multi-use trails, bike paths, or even residential sidewalks, he/she/is stymied by the undisciplined hither-and-yon movement of pedestrians.

Mixing cyclists and pedestrians is about the most dangerous thing that traffic engineers can do. When riding in motor traffic, cyclists are generally safe at about the fastest speed the rider can go, but trying to ride among pedestrians is so hazardous that the “safe” speed is about 5 mph.

In most communities, it's illegal to ride on the sidewalks in the downtown areas or business districts for the same reason above. In residential areas it's usually legal, and sidewalk riding is recommended for small children until they're old enough and experienced enough to ride the street.

Bike lanes are a little different matter, intended to separate bikes from faster motorized traffic. In every state, bicyclists are recognized as drivers of vehicles, just the same as motorists, and bicycles are considered as part of "traffic" and normal users of the road. In essence, every traffic lane is also a bicycle lane, and you're entitled to ride there, with the expectation that you will abide by the appropriate traffic laws and regulations.

Cars are big, heavy, fast, and scary to cyclists protected only by their wits and a fraction of a millimeter of lycra fabric. So, many cyclists cling tenaciously to the sidewalks in spite of the pedestrian situation, or they'll ride along the streets only if there's a marked bike lane there.

In reality, bike lanes complicate the traffic situation, and create about as many problems as they attempt to solve - especially at intersections, where motorists turn across them - and at many intersections they encourage the cyclists to slip up on the right hand side where motorists usually aren't looking. In most cases, dedicated bike lanes will terminate some distance away from major intersections. In these cases cyclists are expected to merge into the traffic lane once the bike lane ends, and behave, well, like vehicles.

By and large, bike lanes have not been effective at providing real safety since the crash rates are essentially the same whether a bike lane is present or not. Bike lanes do have an undoubted psychological effect, because people believe they're safer. Both cyclists and motorists regard the solid white line delineating a bike lane as a "wall" between their traffic lanes. Cyclists think that motorists will never cross it to the right, and motorists think cyclists will never cross it to the left. In reality, the painted stripe merely provides the illusion of safety. People will cross that line when necessary, and the danger is that the unprepared motorist or cyclist can be caught unaware.

The division between facilities advocates (bike lane supporters) and vehicular cyclists (who believe cyclists should act and be treated as merely another vehicle on the road) is a fundamental disagreement about human nature. In very broad strokes, on one hand you have one group that tries to influence behavior through engineering, paint, and concrete. The interstate highway system is an excellent example of this approach. On the other hand, you have a separate, sometimes overlapping group that tries to change behavior through education and training. Driver's Ed and the League's Bike Ed programs are examples of this approach. The first group strongly advocates the painting and establishment of bike lanes wherever there’s room; the others acknowledge that under the law, every lane is a bike lane, and that we should teach motorists and cyclists alike to share the available facilities.

Both local advocacy groups and the League of American Bicyclists shamelessly play both sides of this fence, by advocating for bike paths wherever possible for those riders who simply will not venture out into the streets; by providing educational courses, classes, and outreach for those who pursue the vehicular cycling principle; and lobbying/litigating against those who would restrict cyclists’ rights and access to the public roads. It’s not being two-faced… It’s a simple realization that as cyclists we really have the best of both worlds.

Cyclists are unique, because we are the only highway users that have a choice. We can follow drivers’ rules on the roadway, or step to the side of the road and off the bike, and become pedestrians. And after a situation clears, we can check for a safe space in the traffic flow, hop back on the bike, and pedal off again.

[Geonz]

Eden pegged my point. Too often bike paths are touted as "the answer," and then they're poorly designed and not maintained, because the planners & executers do "more efficient" things for the rest of the traffic flow, since the bicycle stuff isn't considered as important. This means people don't use the facilities, because they aren't safe, and this means that there still aren't enough bicycle-riders to make it a priority. It's a self-perpetuating cycle unless and until other forces get involved. Be it known that I ride on a sidewalk everyday except when it's snowy (which has been the past month or so), because for that last 200 yards to the campus entrance, it is much safer, and I've seen at most 2 pedestrians on it at the same time. Since I'm making a right turn at the only road it meets, there are no conflicts. "It depends" :D

Most multi-use paths are a bit wider than sidewalks, so there's some room for more of that random pedestrian wandering... but we still had an injury last year when our little Saturday group was on the path and these four 10-year-olds were playing something like tag. They were in their own little world as they pelted at us in a weird Brownian-motion sort of way.

The plain old expense of separate paths is, I think, causing some lean towards "Complete Streets," which I find encouraging. At this point, bicycles as transportation are just perceived as less bizarre than even a few years ago, when bicyclists were supposed to be out meandering with their children (or training for the Tour de France... on some *other* road somewhere...)

[Melalvai]

Sidewalks are for pedestrians, people who walk as a means of locomotion. Cyclists ride on the street, where they are usually safe from pedestrians.
The biggest hazard to a cyclist riding on a sidewalk is the cars.

Pedestrians and cyclists don't pose much threat to each other. The problem is when the sidewalk crosses an intersection, the traffic moving through the intersection isn't expecting something moving so fast. At a walk you can easily change direction or stop, anything faster, not so easy.

I have a friend who was jogging on a sidewalk with her dog when she was hit by a car. SHE looked--the driver didn't. Her dog was fine.

[elk]

Glad I asked. Thank you for your thoughtful responses!

I've been thinking about this for awhile and had the vague feeling that there was a lot more to think about...kind of like when I see someone whose dog is hauling them down the street and I think...Jeepers, train your dog...if you can't do it yourself, get some help...kind of thing. I know what I'm talking about..but they are kind of clueless. That's how I felt at the beginning of ths thread.

to add:

Here in Portland, there was some discussion (bikeportland.org) about whether or not to press for seperated bike lanes....like they have in parts of Europe:

traffic /parked cars / bike lane / sidewalk. instead of

traffic / bike lane / parked cars / sidewalk

I could not think of a single reason NOT to do that...yet there was vociferous objection from the "cycles as vehicles" contingent.

If you/we/us want more people to ride, then it seems to me that there ought to be choices (as PscyclePath said) for riders of all temperements.
I would not want my 72 yr old mom, or my 13 yo niece to HAVE to ride in traffic...Yet I want them to be able to use their bikes as much as possible...

what to do?

But see...here I asked a question and already I'm expressing an opinion:o

[PscyclePath]

The biggest hazard to a cyclist riding on a sidewalk is the cars.

Pedestrians and cyclists don't pose much threat to each other. The problem is when the sidewalk crosses an intersection, the traffic moving through the intersection isn't expecting something moving so fast. At a walk you can easily change direction or stop, anything faster, not so easy.

I have a friend who was jogging on a sidewalk with her dog when she was hit by a car. SHE looked--the driver didn't. Her dog was fine.

Absolutely. People ride the sidewalks because they mistakenly believe that "cars don't go there." The reality is that cars go there all the time -- at every single driveway. And in Arkansas, as well as other states, there's no specific law about sidewalks, so unless there's a city ordinance prohibiting it, you can drive your car on the sidewalk too! Fortunately not too many folks have figured the out yet ;-)

The Bike Path Folks and the Vehicular Cyclists often remain at open war with each other... the VCs claiming that the BP folks are sissy-babies for not taking to the streets, and the BP folks claiming that the VC folks don't want any more dedicated bike lanes established. The VCs tend to be a little more testosterone-laden and outpoken. In fact, at BikeForum.net, the VCs got banished to their own subforum when the arguments got too hot.

Me, I ride VC-style, but like having the opportunity to take advantage of the "best of both worlds" provisions.

[Grog]

Here in Portland, there was some discussion (bikeportland.org) about whether or not to press for seperated bike lanes....like they have in parts of Europe:

traffic /parked cars / bike lane / sidewalk. instead of

traffic / bike lane / parked cars / sidewalk

I could not think of a single reason NOT to do that...yet there was vociferous objection from the "cycles as vehicles" contingent.


One of the major reasons is, again, intersections: fast-moving vehicles (that need to turn) are not expected to be on the right of parked cars. I am afraid that having the cars and bike lane separated by parked cars will make cyclists more invisible to drivers, and increase the number of right-hooks.

[mimitabby]

In European countries where roads are much narrower than ours, cars and bikes share the road nicely. The drivers of cars know that the bicyclists are fellow human beings and treat them as such.
In Seattle, it seems to me that bike numbers are increasing on the roads; this is good, as motorists get used to them, they're not going to react with surprise and anger as much. (crossing fingers)

[elk]

geez I don't know...We have no sidewalks in my neighborhood and when I am walking the dogs, we have to walk in the street. I deck us out like christmas trees with lights and reflectors...and people look at us and don't slow down AT ALL.

I think that most ppl are SO in their heads that they don't even realize they are in cars...I want as much room as possible between me and them....

[Geonz]

The infrastructures & cultures are significantly different in Europe. We're simply not going to turn into Europe by building separate paths... as if I could even *imagine* that being added to our transportation budgets. In Illinois, we don't even *get* what is added ot the budget - most of it never gets distributed and simply gets sent back to the Feds. Somehow they're supposed to send X percent of stuff back, so they take bunches of it from "unimportant" stuff like cycling facilities. (THis year, though, they didn't bother to distribute the funds for Safe Routes to Schools, so there are a few moms upset and of course it doesn't sound nearly as inoccuous as saying "well, we trimmed the budget from these cycling frills" as it is to have not given out the funds awarded to help kids get to school.)

Separate is nice, in theory... but again, unless that separate path doesn't cross other roads and driveways, every conflict is a gamble.

http://www.resourceroom.net/pcc/windsorpath1.htm is the photo essay I did of what's not such a bad path... but I can fully understand why somebody who wants to get *home* would prefer the road. Most of these issues would be just as true with the path on the other side of parked cars.

[Eden]

Here's a great illustration of why it is not necessarily safe to ride on sidewalks

This accident occured yesterday between two bicycles, one was on a multi use trail and crossing the street (legally on the green) the other on the sidewalk and crossed his path perpendicularly.

I was crossing with the green on the crosswalk going westbound to work, upon getting past the street another rider came down the west sidewalk going south, but she didn't stop, and there was a bus waiting on the southbound lane so she just "appeared"

This can of course happen with cars too! In fact the same intersection where this happend is kind of nasty as many cars do a right on red without stopping (illegal!) and seemingly without looking (stupid!), even though there is a very well known bike path that crosses the street there.

Even though it was at a slow speed (he said about 12mph) the cyclist who wrote about the accident broke the frame of his steel bike! and the other person involved had taco'd wheels and took a trip to the ER.

Never assume that sidewalks or bikepaths are automatically safe!

[Deborajen]

Here's a great illustration of why it is not necessarily safe to ride on sidewalks

This accident occured yesterday between two bicycles, one was on a multi use trail and crossing the street (legally on the green) the other on the sidewalk and crossed his path perpendicularly.

I was crossing with the green on the crosswalk going westbound to work, upon getting past the street another rider came down the west sidewalk going south, but she didn't stop, and there was a bus waiting on the southbound lane so she just "appeared"


A big part of this problem is that people on sidewalks seem to think that no stop sign specifically for them means it's o.k. (or even safe) to go - no need to look, no need to peek around a blind corner, etc. Then again, that's assuming the rider on the sidewalk was familiar with the intersection in the first place - Perhaps that rider didn't know the sidewalk was intersecting with a bike path and, therefore, needed a stop and a glance - ?

Sidewalks are just loaded with hazards and they're mainly built for pedestrian traffic which doesn't move very fast. Put a bike on it, the bike goes faster/can't stop as quickly/isn't as likely to be anticipated by car traffic, etc. - the cyclist really has to fend for him/herself. I don't have the answers, but I'll stick to riding on roads that have room for me and where I can ride like a slow car and be predictable to the cars.

Deb

[mimitabby]

When I choose to ride on a sidewalk, I am always going VERY slow.
I generally ride on sidewalks when there is not much of an alternative; like
going from King street to Jackson Via 6th, that one block is 1 way the wrong way; so I ride the sidewalk and cross Jackson via the crosswalk and from there
I get back onto Jackson into the street.

[Geonz]

Right... when comparing to Europe it's important to remember that Europe is older than we are... and their infrastructures less automobile-centric.

[mimitabby]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, Sue, where I've seen a lot of bicycling in Italy, the roads were VERY narrow, often without shoulders, without those nice little guardrails too.
The difference is NOT the infrastructure, Italy's infrastructure is absolutely impoverished compared to ours.
The difference is in ATTITUDE. The average motorist in Italy has at least one grandparent who rode his bicycle to work, and maybe still does.

Who's want to run over their own grandmother?

[kat_h]

The drivers of cars know that the bicyclists are fellow human beings and treat them as such.

That is key. Calgary has bike paths along the rivers, but no bike lanes on streets. There is one street that has a picture of a bike painted on the pavement at the start of each block. When those are visable drivers on that street are quite decent, because they understand that bikes are supposed to be there too. When those are covered in snow then that street is just like any other in town.

[mimitabby]

That is key. Calgary has bike paths along the rivers, but no bike lanes on streets. There is one street that has a picture of a bike painted on the pavement at the start of each block. When those are visable drivers on that street are quite decent, because they understand that bikes are supposed to be there too. When those are covered in snow then that street is just like any other in town.

You know, I think those things are helping in Seattle too (crossing my fingers)

[KnottedYet]

I know I've said it before, and I'm sorry to constantly repeat myself; but I think the "Bicycle Boulevards" in Berkeley CA are just an amazingly elegant solution. (traffic calmed streets just off the main streets, signage, and sharrows.)

[elk]

we got Bicycle Boulevards here in Portland...and we're getting bike boxes at 14 intersections!!!!

It's a start!!

[kfergos]

I guess I'll throw in my $0.02...

I've only been hit by a car one time in my two years of fairly intensive commuting. Here are all the things I was doing wrong:

1. Riding on the sidewalk in a downtown area (ironically, I was afraid of cars!)
2. Riding against traffic (on the left-hand sidewalk)
3. Riding at night with only a faint blinky light
4. Crossing an intersection without slowing down at all
5. Crossing an intersection without looking for turning cars

Not surprisingly, a driver turning right hit me as I rode the wrong way across the cross walk. He probably didn't see me at all. I walked away unscathed, and my bike was fine, but after that I switched to riding on the road just like a car. I've never been hit again.

I guess I have to admit that, after that experience, I've fallen into the Vehicular Cyclist camp. When I ride, it's always in the road, following traffic laws, and taking the lane when potholes, parked cars, ice, sand dunes, turning cars, or other obstacles make it unsafe to stay near the shoulder. By and large drivers respect that behavior and treat me more like a car, only occasionally edging me out in that nerve-wracking "If I'd twitched I'd be dead" way. I also never "filter through," but always wait in line with the traffic. I've had too many close calls with drivers unexpectedly swerving to the right and almost hitting me. (Once my front wheel touched the side of the car, it was so close. Good thing I was going slow enough to stop on a dime!)

Bike lanes don't make much of an appearance in Metro West Massachusetts. However, my Seattle bicycling experience has made me leery of them: Bike lanes seemed more like shoulders with a bike painted on the road, rather than anything special. The proximity to parked cars and the door zone, in addition to the high glass and grit accumulation in those lanes, made me rather leery of thinking they were all that great. I spent most of my time in the driving lane or the shoulder. Perhaps the issue with bike lanes is they tend to usurp common sense, so a normally cautious rider thinks "I'm safe in this lane," which is no more true than in a regular driving lane. Exercising caution wherever you choose to ride -- even to what feels like an extreme level -- can never hurt.

OK that's more like $2, but there it is.

[Trek420]

ummmmm how does one put a tennis ball on ones spokes and have it actually fit through the fork...... I don't think I have that kind of clearance on any of my bikes - not even my cross bike....

Ah, here is where I posted about "riders who put tennis balls in the spokes". So I saw one of these riders on the train this morning. Conversation went somethin' like this:

Trek: that's an interesting way to carry the tennis balls, do you play?
TBCR (tennis ball carrying rider): a little
Trek: don't you worry at all about throwing the spokes out of true or getting caught in the brake pads?
TBCR: no. I just do this as a conversation starter.

So far this non-scientific study shows these just to be a conversation starter. Maybe chicks dig 'em. ;)

[GLC1968]

Ah, here is where I posted about "riders who put tennis balls in the spokes". So I saw one of these riders on the train this morning. Conversation went somethin' like this:

Trek: that's an interesting way to carry the tennis balls, do you play?
TBCR (tennis ball carrying rider): a little
Trek: don't you worry at all about throwing the spokes out of true or getting caught in the brake pads?
TBCR: no. I just do this as a conversation starter.

So far this non-scientific study shows these just to be a conversation starter. Maybe chicks dig 'em. ;)


When we were kids, we put tennis balls in our spokes because it drove our dogs nuts trying to 'fetch' them. :rolleyes: Of course, back then we also rode our bikes on the left, facing traffic because that's what we were told to do. And no one EVER wore a helmet. What did we know?!? :p

[Trek420]

When we were kids, we put tennis balls in our spokes because it drove our dogs nuts trying to 'fetch' them. :rolleyes: Of course, back then we also rode our bikes on the left, facing traffic because that's what we were told to do. And no one EVER wore a helmet. What did we know?!? :p

and yet we survived to adulthood :rolleyes: :p

[Spec&TrekGirl]

What a timely discussion...I'm going to a BikeLeague Road I class tomorrow.

I've recently gotten back into cycling after a break from my early 20's to my late 30's - not uncommon on this board it seems. The funny thing is, I remember having seen cyclists "control a lane" on several occasions while driving or riding in a car and thought they were absolutely nuts for being in the middle of traffic. But after reading the pre-class book and other online info about riding in traffic, I can completely understand the thinking behind it now. And it is a fact that we clearly saw those cyclists that I thought were "nuts" for getting right in the middle of the lane.

Funny how far a little education goes. Its not immediately intuitive, but it is totally logical that being assertive and acting like the vehicle you are will get you noticed more and keep you safer than hugging the curb where nobody is looking for opposing traffic.

Now, how do we tell all the people (like myself just weeks ago) called the same person "nuts" that I would now call a smart cyclist riding in traffic???

[Eden]

and yet we survived to adulthood :rolleyes: :p

When I was a little one (I guess 2-4 ish - big enough to sit up on my own, but before I was big enough to ride a bike on my own) my dad used to ride me around in one of those rear mounted kiddie seats, of course without a helmet on my head..... you'd probably get arrested for doing something like that these days. I'm not even sure anyone even sells those kind of seats any more. I guess he never tipped over with me though.

[Trek420]

Arrested? Call Child Protective Services :rolleyes: This was on a chicken farm so we weren't going very fast but when I was little the older neighbor kids would drive the old car we used to collect eggs in. This was a '50's car with those huge chrome bumpers we younger kids took turns riding seated on the rear bumper.

I think we knew enough not to sit on the front :o

It's a wonder I'm here today :rolleyes:

[SouthernBelle]

It's a wonder I'm here today :rolleyes:

I think if you don't have these thoughts as an adult, you didn't have a full childhood!

[MauiRockHopper]

Essentially a bike is a vehicle, we just happen to be the motor.

Vehicles go on the road.

Are you supposed to walk you bike in crosswalks? It is really a hassle with clip on shoes to get on and off crossing a highway or road which has "islands" in it. I've waited for cars to yield to me so I could cross, then the decide to go when I'm still crossing. I scream and flip them off and they give me a look like they did nothing wrong. You really have to be on defense. I ride on sidewalks too sometimes and nobody ever uses them because people in Hawaii don't like getting sweaty so they all hide in their AC cars.

[Eden]

Are you supposed to walk you bike in crosswalks?
It totally depends on where you are. You'll have to look up your local laws. In some places you are not allowed to ride on sidewalks period. Some places you have to walk your bike in crosswalks, some places riding is OK.

[alpinerabbit]

my dad used to ride me around in one of those rear mounted kiddie seats, of course without a helmet on my head..... you'd probably get arrested for doing something like that these days.

They are considered perfectly safe here - safety tests are done - lots of parents haul their kids with those - but with helmets.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

I've only been hit by a car one time in my two years of fairly intensive commuting. Here are all the things I was doing wrong:

1. Riding on the sidewalk in a downtown area (ironically, I was afraid of cars!)
2. Riding against traffic (on the left-hand sidewalk)
3. Riding at night with only a faint blinky light
4. Crossing an intersection without slowing down at all
5. Crossing an intersection without looking for turning cars

Not surprisingly, a driver turning right hit me as I rode the wrong way across the cross walk. He probably didn't see me at all. I walked away unscathed, and my bike was fine, but after that I switched to riding on the road just like a car. I've never been hit again.

I guess I have to admit that, after that experience, I've fallen into the Vehicular Cyclist camp. When I ride, it's always in the road, following traffic laws, and taking the lane when potholes, parked cars, ice, sand dunes, turning cars, or other obstacles make it unsafe to stay near the shoulder. By and large drivers respect that behavior and treat me more like a car, only occasionally edging me out in that nerve-wracking "If I'd twitched I'd be dead" way. I also never "filter through," but always wait in line with the traffic. I've had too many close calls with drivers unexpectedly swerving to the right and almost hitting me. (Once my front wheel touched the side of the car, it was so close. Good thing I was going slow enough to stop on a dime!)

Bike lanes don't make much of an appearance in Metro West Massachusetts. However, my Seattle bicycling experience has made me leery of them: Bike lanes seemed more like shoulders with a bike painted on the road, rather than anything special. The proximity to parked cars and the door zone, in addition to the high glass and grit accumulation in those lanes, made me rather leery of thinking they were all that great. I spent most of my time in the driving lane or the shoulder. Perhaps the issue with bike lanes is they tend to usurp common sense, so a normally cautious rider thinks "I'm safe in this lane," which is no more true than in a regular driving lane. Exercising caution wherever you choose to ride -- even to what feels like an extreme level -- can never hurt.



I agree 100%. :)

[jobob]

Great post kfergos! I'd pony up $2 for that. :cool: