Queer-eye for the straight woman [Archive] - Women's Cycling Discussion Forums

LoriO

02-22-2008, 08:48 PM

OMG, I normally HATE shopping, but I don't think I have ever had so much fun shopping as I did today. I went to the mall to find some new clothes for vacation next week (sunny Florida here I come!!) and stopped in to check out a new store there.

It is a store for plus size woman because I found that is one of the few stores that carry nice shirts and blouses that will fit my shoulders and chest.

Well I walk in and get greeting immediately by the clerk on duty. I was a little wary at first about it being a guy, but as he talked, he was very open about being gay and also being a drag queen..oh and one that does comedy!!

Due to the snowstorm here in CT, the mall was empty so he was thrilled to have a "live doll" to play dress up with. I still start laughing everytime I think of him refering to my boobs as "the girls" I have zero fashion taste and told him that and just let him pick outfits out for me. Man he had incredible fashion sense!!

Seriously, I wish more stores had guys like that working there. I swear I am going to go back and kidnap him next time I need to go clothing shopping.

Zen

02-22-2008, 09:02 PM

OMG, I normally HATE shoppingI hear you thereI hear you there

Seriously, I wish more stores had guys like that working there.

Instead of skinny college girls who are busy making after work plans and thinking godknowswhat about us
When I lived in Fort Lauderdale I had a gay guy friend who loved to take me shopping. It may be a stereotype but he did have a great fashion sense.

shootingstar

02-22-2008, 09:08 PM

I'm sure some of you have worked in similar workplaces..places where there are highly paid professionals and outfits to match.

It floored me the few guys, probably straight, who would spend tons of money on 1 suit with leather shoes that were always polished.

Meanwhile we're drooling over the $80.00 cycling jersey..oh wait, that guy probably has expensive sports gear too.

Where I work now, being fashionable..is wearing a hardhat, safety boots and having a body arrest/safety harness looped around your body.

LoriO

02-22-2008, 09:22 PM

I'm usually either in a uniform for work , jeans and grubbies for the barn, or work out clothes. Fashion? What's that??? It was awesome shopping with someone that had a fashion clue!!!

Mr. Bloom

02-23-2008, 02:04 AM

but as he talked, he was very open about being gay and also being a drag queen..oh and one that does comedy!!

I didn't know RuPaul worked in retail?;)

It floored me the few guys, probably straight, who would spend tons of money on 1 suit with leather shoes that were always polished.

Were you floored by the fact that they spent a fortune on the only suit they had...or that they had a collection of expensive suits?

All my suits come from Brooks Brothers (mid range $, but still quite expensive), but they'll probably get worn 200 times before being retired. My dress shoes generally cost about $300, but I have one pair of Johnston & Murphy's that are in their 10th year of wear (I've sent them back to the factory twice for refurbishment at a cost of $125 and they come out looking like new, but feeling comfortable they've been worn for years).

For me, work suits are a necessary expense, so I stick conservative and make them last as long as I can. On the casual side, I'm not quite as conservative, but my only wacky indulgence is socks - I LOVE crazy socks!

LoriO, it's great that you (and the girls) had such a fun experience. It's rare these days that anyone can actually have a good "retail service" experience...AND...I LOVE YOUR AVATAR!

Tuckervill

02-23-2008, 04:08 AM

Men can get away with much more expensive clothes because they can wear them forever. I don't mind dropping serious coin on my husband's shoes. It's important that they fit well for those long days on the convention floor (even though he only does that once or twice a year). I think it's a wonderful idea that they can be resoled! I have zero shoes that can be resoled, except maybe my Birkenstocks.

Now that my hub does not wear suits to work anymore, we spend less on each piece (polos and slacks) than we did on suits, but we have to buy more often because they don't last as long. It's probably a wash, dollar wise. Because of his height we have to buy in specialty shops so that drives the cost of slacks up. He can be more fashionable this way (not that he cares!).

Karen

Mr. Bloom

02-23-2008, 05:10 AM

Men can get away with much more expensive clothes because they can wear them forever.

Interesting issue: I've served on the boards of two organizations that have "clothing closets" for low income people.

They can NEVER get adequate men's clothes since men tend to wear things until they fall apart.

Every now and then, if you're at Wal-mart or Old Navy and see that rack with things that are too cheap to pass up (the $5 shirts, or $8 pants). Buy them and give them for the needy.

carpaltunnel

02-23-2008, 07:05 AM

Mr. Silver, that's a really good idea.

It fits in with a recent experience I had. A friend's daughter is an ER nurse in a city teaching hospital. She told me that often they have to cut the clothing off a homeless person, ruining the clothing. Then they dismiss them in scrubs, which they feel is inadequate but all they have. She wondered if I could put together a few complete "outfits" - (pants, shirt, unders, sox) in ziplock bag kits for them to keep on hand to use.

I couldn't find much in my DH's closet that I thought was good enough because of the very reason you said.

I'm going to find some things on sales racks for her. THANKS MUCH for the compassionate idea :D

Trek420

02-23-2008, 07:47 AM

When I lived in Fort Lauderdale I had a gay guy friend who loved to take me shopping. It may be a stereotype but he did have a great fashion sense.

Thank you Zen. Finally, someone recognizing this is a huge stereotype.

I'm speechless, which whether you only cyber-know me or know me IRL is rare for me :) but I'm surprisingly bothered by this. I realize it's all good but to wake up and before even my first cup of coffee see the Q word splashed in the title .... I dunno.

Maybe I'm over-reacting because after all it is TE and it's all good but ....

I'm glad you had a fabulous shopping experience and I'm thrilled that they guy is open and out. Also QEFTSG is an actual show, so it's not like you're calling anybody the Q word. It's a good pun. :) I like puns and plays on words :p

We all have stuff to teach each other. Their should be SGFTQG & QGFTSG & SGFTSG and.... I could sure need fashion tips.

This is a very personal thing. If you ask 1,000,000 gay folk you will get 1,000,001 responses (the extra one is me changing my mind. It's also generational and I love it that our younger generation often think nothing of the Q word and other terms. It's a breath of fresh air.

Personally I like the Q word vs. the alphabet soup of LGBTQ, and the general term Gay usually is taken to mean our awesome Gay men-folk and leaves us out. So I like the Q term. And I use it ... a lot .... around others who bat for my team. Because it's our word, and it's us, and in the tribe so to speak.

It's a completely different thing to hear from a straight person before my 3rd cup of coffee. :p

And slightly OT as these things tend to go, Mr. Silver (and any other men-folk on the board and/or women with opinions on this isue): what's with all the dark blue, gray, black? Why no bright colors?

I was just reflecting on this because where I work and live there are a lot of urban cyclists. Now the punks and goths and fixie riders all dressed in black because it's a style thang I can understand. And the folks with "no blood for oil" stickers on the bikes (a sentiment I agree with but not their fashion sense) We would not want to look cheerful or happy or like cycling's fun or anything, it's serious :mad: not fun :mad: no colors.

But your average working Joe, construction guys, working class. Whether he's on a bike due to the cost of gas or just trying fit a little work-out in. Why are they all to a man in black, gray or dark blue? OK, so you're in the East Bay and you're a Raider fan, you have the jacket. It comes in Silver too. :cool: It's reflective :cool:

So maybe we can't get folks to wear helmets but how about a nationwide movement to have men accept that colorful clothing can be manly!

I'm glad TE is here to provide a forum and an open place to discuss this. Long live TE :D

Brandy

02-23-2008, 08:16 AM

So maybe we can't get folks to wear helmets but how about a nationwide movement to have men accept that colorful clothing can be manly!

There are three or four guys in my office that have embraced the pink shirts and purple shirts. I love it! My favorite was when our CEO had on a bright multi-colored striped shirt with several buttons not buttoned, one casual Friday. I told him he looked great and he seemed unsure, asking me if it was "too much"...lol.

Bring on the colors!

Trek420

02-23-2008, 08:35 AM

There's an ad on TV, think it's Home Depot for a line of paint color choices that match your favorite college or pro football team. It shows the happy smiling guy gesturing at newly repainted room "Look! My living room matches the Green Bay Packers" :eek: My own personal idea of design he)). :cool:

My LBS guy, Chris at Robinson Wheelworks has faaaaabulous taste and a great eye. And he's as straight as they make 'em. When he repainted my commuter-mobile he put a tiny Mavic logo just so on the back top tube. It's just the right place and size.

Then he and his wrench debated the Lizard skins, he said it was juuuust the right touch of black, his wrench said no - it would not look right. A fight ensued, it rolled out into the parking lot, Chris is 6' somethin' and he won.

They put it on and the bike just pops.

His redesign of the shop was fabulous too, the tiny shop looks much bigger. I thought he'd somehow expanded and it was just a matter of moving things and bouncing light off color .... even little things like the parts display counter the parts are nestled in coffee beans! Which bounces the light and the shiny Campy bits just sing against dark espresso beans. Who'da thunk it?

His lucky wife and kid get the aesthetics of a designer with all the advantages :D :p of a big ol' great straight guy :p :D

I've long ago learned that if I bring the bike in for work and he says "It will look better with this, and work just as well as that" .... he's right.

So it's not as if straight guys can't have taste even in a Blue Park Tool work shirt.

But again, why all the black, blue and gray?

Duck on Wheels

02-23-2008, 12:40 PM

Well sis, if it's any help, and if you've had another cuppa by now ... When I'm out shopping, which I usually don't enjoy, I'm thrilled to find anybody who knows what's in their shop, who it fits, what colors are likely to look good on them etc. and gives me good advice if I happen to stumble in there as a customer. In my experience so far, it's usually been a woman a few years older than me (which IS saying something!), but if it were a guy, straight or gay, I'd be good with that too. What I'm hoping here is that LoriO was impressed with this particular salesperson's professionalism and helpfulness. That he had a sense of humor was a welcome extra, and that his humor happened to be spoofing about his own sexual orientation, well ... that was his own choice, not hers to make, but fun enough when he made it. Maybe it's my insensitivity (I can be pretty dense) but while I thought she was treading close, I think she stayed on the right side of the stereotype issue. (Yep, they're wrong as often as right, which means they don't hold up statistically.) And the rest of the discussion went off in a very helpful direction: I need to go through my closet, pack up things that are still in good shape but that I'm not likely to use, and donate them somewhere they can find good homes. It'll help make room for what I bought on sale today (went out shopping for a new tea kettle, but came home instead with a knit suit at 75% off, charcoal gray, knee-length skirt with twirly pleats, long jacket with very long sleeves (YAY!) and a hood (?) but no pockets (:(). Actually, UK might want to borrow it for job interviews, but only if she gives it back.
BTW, remember warning your nephew about not wearing the rainbow beanie he'd had since he was 5 to his new HS? Well, he is one straight guy I would take along as a shopping advisor any day, if he were willing. Excellent fashion sense. Also good sense of design in other departments, such as which direction to lay the boards on the deck stairs. Not very patient with women shoppers, tho. His gf and I plan to leave him at REI while we hit the mall, come June.

carpaltunnel

02-23-2008, 01:06 PM

Bring on the colors!

I just got home from shopping, where I saw a young - 17-ish - "Dude" sporting a pink T-shirt with the words (In black) All My Black Shirts Are Dirty".He was with his Mom & sister, and they looked like they were having fun!

Trek420

02-23-2008, 01:09 PM

remember warning your nephew about not wearing the rainbow beanie he'd had since he was 5 to his new HS? Well, he is one straight guy I would take along as a shopping advisor any day, if he were willing. Excellent fashion sense. Also good sense of design in other departments, such as which direction to lay the boards on the deck stairs.

Yes, and if anyone were to say "well you cook, have good fashion and design sense ... you sure you're straight? :rolleyes:"

He just stands up :D and up :D and up :D and says "Yeah, and you gotta problem with that?" then does a fingertip chin up. :)

Remember when I came out (to my sibs first) oh about '75 or so, I remember either you or BrotheroftheDuckonwheels saying that our mutual parents had asked if mutual brother might be batting for the other team. Brotheronwheels is very much on the Het side of the Kinsey scale but a slave to fashion. :) When pegging jeans was the thing he pegged his own, he dresses very well to this day, likes Native American massive jewelry and almost always dresses in black. Dayuhm he cleans up nice. I could learn a thing or two from him :cool:

So they thought he might be .... but he's not. BTW I also know G@y guys who I just love bunches but they don't have the fashion/design sense G*d gave lettuce.

So here he is with his grandson in a rare moment of color. Note for comparison purposes the Dad to the right; black tennis shoes with shorts? I think it's a fashion don't. Ladies (and Gent) whadya think? Can a guy wear colorful clothes or are we doomed to blue, gray and black?

Of course I'm not one to talk, the electricians are here, my power is off and I'm STILL in sweats.

So I'll keep de-cluttering. What I learned on QEFTSG is that if you haven't worn it in a year or more .... donate it. You probably will not wear it again. Bell bottoms have already been in style....twice. So another load of donations to the thrift store.

BleeckerSt_Girl

02-23-2008, 02:03 PM

Most of the people I know wear all kinds of interesting colors and styles...both men and women, straight or gay/queer.
I'm not sure what the question is- :confused: *Is* there a question?
Maybe it's because I don't work in an office?

I tend to have quite a lot of black items...most biking tights, capris, etc are black. I then pair them with bold colored socks, neck gaiters, bright hats, etc. The black base color shows off the bright accessories' colors better. :)

Duck on Wheels

02-23-2008, 02:08 PM

Yes, and if anyone were to say "well you cook, have good fashion and design sense ... you sure you're straight? :rolleyes:"

He just stands up :D and up :D and up :D and says "Yeah, and you gotta problem with that?" then does a fingertip chin up. :)

Remember when I came out (to my sibs first) oh about '75 or so, I remember either you or BrotheroftheDuckonwheels saying that our mutual parents had asked if mutual brother might be batting for the other team. Brotheronwheels is very much on the Het side of the Kinsey scale but a slave to fashion. :) When pegging jeans was the thing he pegged his own, he dresses very well to this day, likes Native American massive jewelry and almost always dresses in black. Dayuhm he cleans up nice. I could learn a thing or two from him :cool:

So they thought he might be .... but he's not. BTW I also know G@y guys who I just love bunches but they don't have the fashion/design sense G*d gave lettuce.

So here he is with his grandson in a rare moment of color. Note for comparison purposes the Dad to the right; black tennis shoes with shorts? I think it's a fashion don't. Ladies (and Gent) whadya think? Can a guy wear colorful clothes or are we doomed to blue, gray and black?

Of course I'm not one to talk, the electricians are here, my power is off and I'm STILL in sweats.

So I might as well continue the de-cluttering. What I learned on QEFTSG is that if you haven't worn it in a year or more .... donate it. You probably will not wear it. So another load of donations to the thrift store.

Musta been mutual brother who told you that one, cuz this is the first I've heard of it. Thought never even struck me. The guy likes Hawaiian shirts and fashionable shoes. So? When mutual mom doesn't have time to peg pants, or won't peg them as tight as fashion demands, he learns to sew. So? When wife nr. 1 keeps postponing sewing that sports jacket she bought yardage and pattern for, he learns to tailor. So? So I decided I could sew a jacket too and did a 3-piece suit for the dh over here. Th'thought never occured to me that any of this meant anything else. I do recall your coming-out-letter tho'. I'd written to you that I was preggers, and that tho' this would work out fine, was no crisis, and would not keep me from finishing school, you should probably not follow my example. You wrote back that you and your lover had no intention of getting pregnant, either of you. ;)

As for ds rising up and up and up and then pulling himself up on a rafter edge by his finger tips ...? Prob'ly right. He won a bouldering contest today. :cool: Jess wait til June. He's not only taller than last time you saw him, he's also built a lot of upper body muscle.

Trek420

02-23-2008, 02:15 PM

He's taller? That's not humanly possible ;)

They'll want to go here

www.greenbelt.org/getinvolved/wondersandwanders/sthelena

Most of the people I know wear all kinds of interesting colors and styles..

Yes, you're an artist, the artist formerly known as .... so it's natch that you're flock towards people with an aesthetic sense and interesting ideas about color, texture.

I'm not sure what the question is- :confused: *Is* there a question?

My question, if i have one, and this is because I tend to overthink things IS there a "Queer eye"? Or a straight one for that matter?

Mr. Bloom

02-23-2008, 02:22 PM

And slightly OT as these things tend to go, Mr. Silver (and any other men-folk on the board and/or women with opinions on this isue): what's with all the dark blue, gray, black? Why no bright colors?

Trek, are you talking about cycling attire or business attire?

If it's cycling attire, I agree. There are ....hmmmm....anatomical....hmmmm....reasons that a man should choose black cycling shorts (there's been a post about this one before (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=18136&highlight=black+shorts) :owith pictures:o...and I really felt sorry for one of the guys:o:(), but I'm all for bright jerseys. I got a collection of Royal Blue that I never wear...favoring bright yellow instead. In addition, my riding jacket is florescent lime green.

If it's business attire, colors don't work. Suits are expensive. A man can wear two different dark suits all week and no one would know. If I had a two week rotation of suits of different colors, I'd have nearly $8,000 wrapped up in suits @ $800/each. I'm going to stick with dark and bland. Besides, bright suits are so 80's...and generally require polyester double-knit:rolleyes: I wear dark suits, starched white shirts, striped ties, grey socks, and black shoes. Every work day

If it's casual, I have a collection of LaCoste shirts (http://shopapparel.lacoste.com/p/Short-Sleeve-Classic-Pique-Polo/B000PYBWY4) ...including pink, lavender, sunflower...looking at their website, it seems their colors are a bit muted this season...

...but I'll post a picture of my casual socks collection...you'll like!

But 'oy...this will get us off on a utilikilt tangent again

Trek420

02-23-2008, 02:58 PM

'oy...this will get us off on a utilikilt tangent again

Well a girl can always hope. :rolleyes:

Hey, didn't you promise to wear one to work? Or was that bike shorts and a suit? ;)

Mr. Bloom

02-23-2008, 03:03 PM

Well a girl can always hope. :rolleyes:

Hey, didn't you promise to wear one to work? Or was that bike shorts and a suit? ;)

It was shorts and a suit...but alas, I've taken the pictures off the 'net:rolleyes: didn't want them to come back and haunt me when I run for president

BleeckerSt_Girl

02-23-2008, 04:05 PM

It was shorts and a suit...but alas, I've taken the pictures off the 'net:rolleyes: didn't want them to come back and haunt me when I run for president

Hah!- there's always the Wayback Machine..... :cool:
http://www.archive.org/web/web.php

Trek- I tend to think of it more as an artistic eye vs. a non-artistic eye, rather than a queer eye vs. a straight eye. There are plentiful people around with absolutely no sense of style, both straight and gay! :rolleyes:

And you're right, I do tend to hang out with some interesting people (of all walks of life though, not just artists) I purposely seek out the company of unique or creative people. ...and perhaps their unique clothing styles alert me and help me recognize them as interesting people to want to get to know.
It's all so interesting.

boy in a kilt

02-23-2008, 04:07 PM

I've always been taught that in the business world, dark suits are basically your uniform. These rules of thumb may be a little dated, but brown suits are considered "weak". Also, double-breasted suits are generally only appropriate for men of higher status.

Fortunately, I've never had a job wear I had to wear a suit and am not likely to do so because I don't have the qualifications to get such a job.

I'm kinda weird about jerseys. I'm fat enough that I look like a sausage in most jerseys. I'm also cheap enough that if I drop more than about $40 on a jersey, it had best be wool. Those two things alone rule out most of the colorful ones.

mimitabby

02-23-2008, 04:21 PM

where I work sometimes I am revolted by the fact that all the guys are wearing shades of beige and tan. (there are some exceptions at my office, but they are VERY noticeable)
sometimes i will see 3 in a row wearing their tan khaki pants and their excruciatingly boring matching shirts, and I say Don't you guys have anything more colorful??? WHO PICKS THESE CLOTHES OUT????
and to a man; the response is: MY WIFE.
there are 3 guys in my office who dress themselves in COLORS; two are bachelors, one is 25 years old (and married).

My gay brother didn't have great taste in clothes... I guess he didn't fit the stereotype either. :confused:

Wahine

02-23-2008, 05:29 PM

I have a brother who is 6'3" and very built, he is a total metrosexual and dressed me when we were teens. Great fashion sense and straight.

I have several close male friends... same.

My husband has great design and clothing sense and thinks nothing of wearing bright clothes. He sometimes gets mistaken for g@y. No he's not.

I have a very straight male friend who dresses badly in women's clothing.

I met a g@y man horticulturalist today with absolutely no fashion sense what so ever.

Only once in my life has anyone been able to pull a pair of jeans off of the rack for me and have them fit without even asking me my size. A g@y man.

I have a client that is a professional snowboarder that came into treatment with purple jeans and a bright yellow t-shirt. It really hurt my eyes. But it was colorful.

silver

02-24-2008, 03:27 AM

sometimes i will see 3 in a row wearing their tan khaki pants and their excruciatingly boring matching shirts, and I say Don't you guys have anything more colorful??? WHO PICKS THESE CLOTHES OUT????

Once, in the office, my lavender shirt was referred to as "light in the loafers purple" and my pink one as "powder boy pink"...coming from three SVP's who reported to me:rolleyes:I'm clearly a boss who creates WAY too comfortable of a work environment:rolleyes:

silver

02-24-2008, 03:30 AM

he is a total metrosexual

When the phrase was first coined in the late 80's, it was "metromale". I prefer that...otherwise, it's like we've established one additional sexual orientation...

Oops....This is Mr. Silver (not Silver)typing on Silver's computer!!!:o

bmccasland

02-24-2008, 03:53 AM

I wear dark suits, starched white shirts, striped ties, grey socks, and black shoes.

Mr. Silver and anyother gent on line needing ties.... I was at an higher end mall yesterday (between the French Quarter and the convention center) - that caters mainly to the tourist trade, and saw some really funky ties. How do you feel about Tobasco, want a big bottle of it on a tie?

My former eye doctor used to wear the funkiest ties, with this office suits. Some of them from a distance looked like the conservative little patterns, until you got close. When he retired, I told him I'd miss his great care, and his ties.

So if you need something cheerful, or ladies you want to brighten up your favorite suit, I'm willing to aid and abet. :p

Trek420

02-24-2008, 07:00 AM

Once, in the office, my lavender shirt was referred to as "light in the loafers purple" and my pink one as "powder boy pink"...coming from three SVP's who reported to me:rolleyes:I'm clearly a boss who creates WAY too comfortable of a work environment:rolleyes:

OK, now I'm confused, and this is before the 2nd cuppa. So I'm talking to Mr. Silver logged in as Silver, right? 'cause if it's Silver uhm, nice suit and tie. ;)

So you're a boss who tolerates barely juuuuuuuust this side of the line of the EEO policy ribbing of gays or appearances assumed to be gay?

So is this why all the black, blue and gray? Because "real men" don't wear color or only certain colors or the other boys on the playground will tease them and only when it's a bike jersey and then when the ride's over it's right back into uniform?

That's so sad :(

Speaking of ties, has anyone seen the Carlos Santana line of ties? They are wild. And the money raised goes to his Milagros Foundation (for kids charities).

OakLeaf

02-24-2008, 07:16 AM

So you're a boss who tolerates barely juuuuuuuust this side of the line of the EEO policy ribbing of gays or appearances assumed to be gay?

He's in Indiana. Discrimination based on sexual orientation is perfectly legal.

Although I do have to say that in a world where universities have Queer Studies departments, it seems to me that that word at least has been thoroughly reclaimed, and a good thing too. Now if only we could do the same for the B word that this forum won't let me type.

snapdragen

02-24-2008, 07:58 AM

Wahine

02-24-2008, 08:03 AM

Thank you Snap. You make a very good point.

maillotpois

02-24-2008, 08:08 AM

+1.

Snap, crackle & POP.

:D

Xrayted

02-24-2008, 08:10 AM

Thank you Snap. Beautifully said. :cool:

Trek420

02-24-2008, 08:53 AM

I'm sick of it; to the point where I wonder if I even want to be a part of this community any more.

Noooooooo, Snap, don't leave. You stay, I'll go. I think I'll got to Walmart first and get some beef. :confused:

BleeckerSt_Girl

02-24-2008, 09:06 AM

Noooooooo, Snap, don't leave. You stay, I'll go. I think I'll got to Walmart first and get some beef. :confused:

Don't forget to buy one of those nice new Chinese bikes while you're there.

:D :D :D

VeloVT

02-24-2008, 09:06 AM

I'm really disappointed that another lighthearted post has been turned into yet another soapbox on TE. Are we so wrapped up in our own PC world, that we need to school everyone whenever we feel a possible slight.

It's not just this post, and the use of the word queer. It's the "I'm so much better because I don't shop at walmart", "I never eat beef so I'm a much better human", "all conservative Christians are stupid".

People have been driven off these boards by the holier than thou behavior of a few, and I'm sick of it; to the point where I wonder if I even want to be a part of this community any more.

//snap - straight, queer loving, pagan, liberal that believes in tolerance for everyone, not just those you agree with.

You know, I really disagree with this. What's the alternative to "being so wrapped up in our PC world that we have to school everyone whenever we feel a possible slight"? Sitting at the dinner table and eating up someone's offensive black jokes because objecting to them would be "holier than thou"?

And who really wants to be "tolerated" anyway :confused:? (And one is forced to wonder how far "toleration" really goes, if it does not admit others the right to express their differences).

I don't have a dog in this fight (that is, I'm not gay and so **I** did not feel stereotyped by the original post), but I think the community needs to allow everyone the right to let others know if they have, perhaps unknowingly and unintentionally, caused offense. I remember seeing threads about breast implants and "may -- december" romance here recently in which valuable discussion ensued from members exercising their right to respectfully let others know they have been offended.

That's all.

lph

02-24-2008, 09:27 AM

I agree - when someone feels offended or feel that they are bearing the brunt of a common sterotype I'd much rather they said so, in a gentle manner, instead of grinning and bearing it.

It doesn't have to be a fullout argument, just a discussion that can give a little insight both ways. The only thing we have in common on this forum is biking, so we SHOULD expect somebody, somewhere to disagree with almost any other value or idea we express.

Wahine

02-24-2008, 10:26 AM

Correct me if wrong, but the way I see it is this:

Light hearted thread started with a possibly less than PC title.

One poster responds in a very nice way to what she perceives as a stereotype that she would rather not see perpetuated and finishes her post with a light hearted comment about clothing color. She commented in a very nice way and tried to keep things light.

Then it became a bit of a soap box that was no longer fun and may make people hesitant to post ideas.

I don't think the issue is expressing yourself here or your ideals. Just how it is done. If we want to be an inclusive group, we should be phrasing our posts in an appropriate manner and not making judgemental statements.

OK, now I have officially gotten onto the soap box. And you can all shoot me down.

salsabike

02-24-2008, 10:55 AM

BleeckerSt_Girl

02-24-2008, 11:10 AM

...And rather than thinking about what anyone else is saying, I think I will just try to keep an eye on my own posts.

Best suggestion so far.

Trek420

02-24-2008, 06:13 PM

I will just try to keep an eye on my own posts.

Me too. Now can we go on to chocolate and blue cheese? :o

Veronica

02-24-2008, 06:15 PM

Me too. Now can we go on to chocolate and blue cheese? :o

No - not together. :rolleyes:

Check out Brandy's Blog. She has a good chocolate supplier.

V.

Trek420

02-24-2008, 06:34 PM

No - not together. :rolleyes:

Why not? Cheese and chocolate go together :D ever had mascarpone dipped in chocolate? Yum :D Blue cheese goes with port, pears, candied walnuts .... blue cheese goes with sweet things. Why not chocolate?

I think I've been without a kitchen too long and it's effecting my brains. ;)

LoriO

02-24-2008, 07:17 PM

I'm sorry if I offended anyone with my title, that was NOT my intent. I was using the name of a very well known TV show with a twist to fit the situation. I had had a wonderful shopping experience with a really awesome salesperson that was hilarious to boot and thought it would be fun to share.

I have had many gay friends and even was practically raised by a gay man when my father decided he didn't want the job. My mom's business partner and close friend stepped in and was a wonderful father figure for me as I grew up.

Guess I'll just go back to lurking..........

crazycanuck

02-24-2008, 07:28 PM

Lori-don't lurk :( I understand what you were trying to say.

YOu're stil part of the wacky women TE crowd..:) Keep posting!

:)

KnottedYet

02-24-2008, 07:33 PM

LoriO - it's ok, you didn't offend anyone! A discussion started on a tangent to your great story about shopping, your story was fun and I liked it. Don't lurk!

snapdragen

02-24-2008, 07:33 PM

Nothing offensive about your title at all Lori - please continue to contribute to the TE group.

Trek420

02-24-2008, 07:39 PM

Come back, please don't lurk! Not offended in the least and besides, we'd all miss your little green hat. :D

Oh, wait, that's not you. ;) :rolleyes:

Zen

02-24-2008, 08:56 PM

we'd all miss your little green hat. :D

Oh, wait, that's not you. ;) :rolleyes:
in my imagination it's a helmet for some type of cat sport.
Or possibly space exploration.

Savannahgurl

02-25-2008, 03:54 AM

I applaud you for having the nerve to post that Snap. I have watched so many TE members get 'run off' by self rightous TE regulars. I will continue to lurk occassionally, but this will be my one and only post. I prefer to post of other forums where the welcome is much warmer no matter who you are.

I work at Wal-Mart, love George Bush and am proud to be a Republican, have a husband who is fighting a worthwhile war in Iraq. I am not ashamed to eat beef, to believe in God and America, and am going to spend my refund check at Wal-Mart on stuff made in China. AND I ride a bicycle.

I'm really disappointed that another lighthearted post has been turned into yet another soapbox on TE. Are we so wrapped up in our own PC world, that we need to school everyone whenever we feel a possible slight.

It's not just this post, and the use of the word queer. It's the "I'm so much better because I don't shop at walmart", "I never eat beef so I'm a much better human", "all conservative Christians are stupid".

People have been driven off these boards by the holier than thou behavior of a few, and I'm sick of it; to the point where I wonder if I even want to be a part of this community any more.

//snap - straight, queer loving, pagan, liberal that believes in tolerance for everyone, not just those you agree with.

VeloVT

02-25-2008, 04:19 AM

howdy,
I stand by my post earlier (I really do feel that everyone here should be accorded a right to express when they've been offended), but I just wanted to make sure, LoriO, that you realize that I did not mean to compare **your post** to someone making offensive racial jokes at a dinner party. I was trying to illustrate what happens when people are not permitted to say when something offends them, in response to Snap's post; I was not trying to imply that your post somehow comparable to that situation, and for the record I don't think it was in any way.

I'm sorry that some people seem to be feeling that this is not a welcoming community. I have on occasion been irritated by what I perceived as judgmental or self-righteous posts, but overall I think the level of maturity, wisdom and respect on these boards far exceed what I have seen elsewhere, and I even apply that to the people who have offended me in the past. I will try to be more sensitive in my posts in the future, and I'm sure others will too.

But maybe I'm a weirdo because I didn't find the "controversial" post that was removed to be horribly inappropriate; perhaps it could have been worded a bit more gently, but it belongs to the category of speech that I believe we should protect here.

redrhodie

02-25-2008, 04:31 AM

KnottedYet

02-25-2008, 04:48 AM

Well, the thread was winding down to apologies and apololgy-accepteds and general mature good-feelings all around again, so he had to do something to try to make it vicariously thrilling and watch the women flip out again.

My teenaged son reads me some of the forum-baiting he finds on the internet. It happens everywhere. Don't let it get to you.

redrhodie

02-25-2008, 04:53 AM

Ha!

Starfish

02-25-2008, 06:45 AM

I have watched so many TE members get 'run off' by self rightous TE regulars.

Nobody can get "run off" unless they are willing to be "run off."

I don't agree with an awful lot of what I read in this forum, and I have read some downright offensive language about things I believe in deeply, characterizations I don't think would be tolerated here for one minute if they were aimed at a lot of other belief systems.

But, it is always my choice to decide where to pick my battles, and to weigh what I get from this community, compared to what troubles me about it. No different than any other group of frail and faulty human beings (including me) I might belong to.

I have sometimes needed to take a break from TE because of these issues, but that is my choice. No one is going to "run me off." I happen to care a lot more about the big choices people make in life when it comes to what they believe, than I care about what kind of bike they ride.

But, this is a cycling forum...it is what it is. For me, there is more benefit in staying than letting a few intolerant people ruin my association with the huge numbers of wonderful women on this forum who have been incredibly kind and helpful to me.

Veronica

02-25-2008, 07:06 AM

Frankly, I'm kind of wondering who has been "run off"? Sure there have been people who have come and posted a bit and then moved on. But were they "run off" or did they just choose to move on? How do you know when someone has been run off? I guess when they post that they're leaving. But I've always viewed those posts as a plea for attention. But hey I'm just an insensitive clod who eats meat, but only humanely raised and only cage free eggs, believes in God, but not in heaven (don't ask!), refuses to shop at Wal Mart, tries desperately to not buy goods made in China and speaks her mind. What do I know? :rolleyes:

Oh and I spent the first 18 years of my life on welfare, so I do understand why some people cannot make the choices I have made. I am extremely thankful that I have been fortunate in my life and can now choose to follow my conscience without worrying about where my next meal is coming from. Don't hate me because I've been lucky.

I think movement is typical of a lot of forums. There's a watch forum I drop in on once or twice a year now that I was formerly very active in.

I think not taking things so personally would help. It's not always about "you."

V.

redrhodie

02-25-2008, 07:19 AM

I think KnottedYet was pointing out that we are being baited to keep this thread alive by someone who actually may not be who she claims to be.:cool:

Zen

02-25-2008, 07:21 AM

SadieKate

02-25-2008, 07:28 AM

No ones ever been banished from the kingdom as it were, but I do know of two people who chose to leave.
Sometimes people take things too personally or don't have the wherewithal to simply brush it off.I beg to differ. TE does have a history prior to April 2007.

I know of at least one poster who was banned. The poster persisted in disobeying forum rules.

Veronica

02-25-2008, 07:35 AM

Hey Zen I really like your end quote. I'm going to turn that into a poster for my classroom. And it's given me an idea for Read Across America Day which is celebrated on Dr. Seuss's birthday or close to it, if it's a weekend day.

V.

PS Yes, I do remember someone being asked to leave, but that's different from being "run off." Running off makes me picture pitch forks and brooms in hand...

teigyr

02-25-2008, 07:37 AM

LoriO, I appreciated your story and I think it's great that you had such a fun time.

It's pretty difficult to offend me and I have noticed that there are times when someone innocently says something and people take it for more than what it is. I realize that in this forum, we have a lot of diversity and there are some people who are more sensitive than others. I know that there can be word ownership (ie one group can say it but it's bad if someone outside says it) too. I also know I accidently offended someone once because of poor sentence structure.

I think people can be "run out". The written word can be harsh and we can't tell inflection or feeling, especially in criticism.

So, LoriO, please stay :D

SadieKate

02-25-2008, 07:39 AM

Being asked to leave implies a choice. Said poster had their ability to post blocked. Matter of fact, there are three (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showgroups.php).

"Being run-off" - periodically I do feel that this forum has a supply of stones at hand. :rolleyes: But that doesn't mean that there aren't remedies.

BleeckerSt_Girl

02-25-2008, 07:48 AM

PS Yes, I do remember someone being asked to leave, but that's different from being "run off." Running off makes me picture pitch forks and brooms in hand...

I found a list once that showed 2 or 3 "banned" former posters from a long while back on TE. It happens, and probably was totally justified.

As to being "run off"....well I can only recall a couple of people who would get angry and indignant when anyone disagreed with their statements. They would dramatically announce their departure, sometimes more than once, (Oh! the terrible loss!) and then lurk to see the reaction of course. They loved it when folks pleaded with them to stay. Total drama queens. If someone wants to leave a forum, just leave, without making Grande Announcements with a trumpet fanfare. I do not consider such drama antics to be true examples of being "run off". :rolleyes:

TE really is friendlier and more accepting and diverse than any other forum I have ever come across on the internet. :)

OakLeaf

02-25-2008, 07:57 AM

Matter of fact, there are three (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showgroups.php).

The only one of those I recognize was a 'bot, not a real poster at all. The other two UIDs sure sound like spammers, though I don't know that.

Trolls are another thing, Knotted is right that they're better ignored than banned (especially since they'll only come back with a new UID).

Lori, yours wasn't the post that most of us found offensive. Also, conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing. But if my sarcasm was a little too dry, then I apologize, and I also embrace the apologies of those others who have apologized.

sundial

02-25-2008, 08:14 AM

It is a store for plus size woman because I found that is one of the few stores that carry nice shirts and blouses that will fit my shoulders and chest.

I know your pain. Blouses for *the big girls*, broad shoulders, and small(ish) waists are not easy to find. You either have to take it in at the waist or you get used to extra drape of fabric.

On the upside, I did learn that big girls make excellent air bags when you endo.

Duck on Wheels

02-25-2008, 12:21 PM

...On the upside, I did learn that big girls make excellent air bags when you endo.

OUUUUCH! THAT's a pain I don't wish to know! It was bad enough when one of my "girls" got hit BY an air bag. :eek:

Trek420

02-25-2008, 12:38 PM

On the upside, I did learn that big girls make excellent air bags when you endo.

That's nice to know should I get the chance to serve as an airbag for someone :cool: :p I'll just station myself on a corner of the next Tour de C TT. That's one way to get a cool Rock Racing jersey. :cool:

And just how did we find this out pray tell? :cool:

Velobambina

02-25-2008, 01:15 PM

Lori--Hope you'll stick around. I loved your story and it was obvious that the salesperson really made your day and was helpful. These days, that's pretty rare.

We all have different "hot" buttons, I guess. When I read something that hits one of mine, I try to remember that our diversity is what makes life interesting. And we all have goodness inside us and most people don't mean to offend. Even those who try to hurt, there's something wrong inside that person's heart. We all suffer---it's the one thing all of us have in common. If I remind myself of that, it's easier for me to remember that what V says is true: it's not all about ME. Thank goodness for that!

LoriO

02-25-2008, 02:35 PM

Sorry if I over reacted last night, I was having a really bad night at work and then when I started reading things here it just made it worse.

Sundial, nice to know there is someone else out there that feels the same pain I do when it comes to shopping for tops. What a pain!

If you even come up to CT I know a great shop with a wonderful salesman that I can send you too! :D

teigyr

02-25-2008, 02:38 PM

I'm 5'11" and am not rail thin. It's next to impossible to find tops that don't expose my midriff!!!

I still think it's so great that he took the time to help you. I know, for me at least, it's difficult to shop because I get into ruts. Sometimes it takes an outsider, especially one with fashion sense, to actually do some good :D

sundial

02-25-2008, 04:39 PM

And just how did we find this out pray tell?

Uh, the hard way. :rolleyes:

If you even come up to CT I know a great shop with a wonderful salesman that I can send you too!

LOL! He sounds like fun! :)

IFjane

02-25-2008, 04:52 PM

Lori--Hope you'll stick around. I loved your story and it was obvious that the salesperson really made your day and was helpful. These days, that's pretty rare.

We all have different "hot" buttons, I guess. When I read something that hits one of mine, I try to remember that our diversity is what makes life interesting... If I remind myself of that, it's easier for me to remember that what V says is true: it's not all about ME. Thank goodness for that!

LoriO, please stay! As one who has put her pedal in her mouth more times than I would like to count, I know somewhat how you feel; but also know how wonderful these women are. This is a wonderful, diverse community that I enjoy every day. Some days I lurk, some days I post, some days I wish I had only lurked! But it is all good - again, please stay. :);)

VeloVT

02-25-2008, 05:01 PM

LoriO, please stay! As one who has put her pedal in her mouth more times than I would like to count, I know somewhat how you feel; but also know how wonderful these women are. This is a wonderful, diverse community that I enjoy every day. Some days I lurk, some days I post, some days I wish I had only lurked! But it is all good - again, please stay. :);)

Thanks IFJane, I wanted to say this but couldn't find the right words so I canceled out my post. +1!

Zen

02-25-2008, 05:22 PM

I don't shop at all anymore, I just wait for Knot's clothing reviews and buy that.

VeloVT

02-25-2008, 05:47 PM

Yesterday I got a Colorado Cyclist catalog and was lamenting to my boyfriend how ugly the Castelli 08 pieces are. This made me sad because I am normally a Castelli fan.

http://www.castelli-us.com/ps-949-4-firenze-jersey.aspx
http://www.castelli-us.com/ps-945-4-pois-jersey.aspx
http://www.castelli-us.com/ps-951-4-fever-jersey.aspx
http://www.castelli-us.com/pc-946-1-tatoo-jersey.aspx
etc...

He said, "you CAN'T buy any more cycling clothes!!!!".

KnottedYet

02-25-2008, 05:52 PM

I don't shop at all anymore, I just wait for Knot's clothing reviews and buy that.

Oooh, tell Susan! Can I work on comission? (hee hee).

I don't know doodly-squid about fashion (LoriO, I need your salesguy!) but I can talk about clothes!

KnottedYet

02-25-2008, 06:22 PM

No ones ever been banished from the kingdom as it were, but I do know of two people who chose to leave.
Sometimes people take things too personally or don't have the wherewithal to simply brush it off.

My favorites are the ones who leave with great fanfare, talk trash about TE forums on another women's bike forum, then come quietly back to TE.

While that is deeply offensive (yes, I'm a d*ke, but not a "vegetarian earth goddess witch," just ask my minister at the next church potluck:D) it does say a LOT about the quality of TE forums. Despite vitriolic diatribes elsewhere, this is still a "home" on the internet for women cyclists and they come back.

In large part, I think, due to the amount of LEARNING that goes on here. We all love bikes. We all understand that love. And through bikes we meet folks we'd be unlikely to meet otherwise. We do a little bit of looking through someone else's eyes, simply because we *do* see eye-to-eye on bikes and riding.

Yeah, we *all* put our pedals in our mouths (good one, IFJane!) but we take a step back, take a second look, and work to understand what's going on from another's perspective. (and I don't "go after" the woman who said these things about me, because I can understand the closeted world she's struggling in don't want to "run her out" of TE. I know how I'd feel if I lost TE, and I can imagine how she'd feel if she lost TE. It's a learning experience.)

Now, if we could just rule the world...

LoriO

02-25-2008, 08:06 PM

ok, group hug (((((((hug)))))))))

Now, anyone want to go shopping???

KnottedYet

02-25-2008, 08:11 PM

YEAH! I vote we go to LoriO's store!!!!:p

Trek420

02-25-2008, 08:12 PM

It's Deja Vu all over again
OMG, I normally HATE shopping, but I don't think I have ever had so much fun shopping as I did today. .... when I went shopping with a group of TE gals. And there was this great gay guy, I think he was one of LoriO's fabulous Dads .... and then we had lemondrops and .... ;) :D and I just went to take the recycling out, there's no outside lights and little kitchen lights and I stepped right into a pile of my mutt Maes .... oh, now I've really put my foot in it. ;)

OakLeaf

02-26-2008, 03:39 AM

ok, group hug (((((((hug)))))))))

Now, anyone want to go shopping???

YEAH!!!! But I still need Nigel from "The Devil Wears Prada." I need him on retainer.

bmccasland

02-26-2008, 05:27 AM

I may live in one, or at least a third world country... but I have consistantly gotten good service at Banana Republic. YMMV, but try going some day other than a busy weekend afternoon. I took a pretty silk paisley skirt in last saturday morning and said I wanted to find tops to go with the skirt, for work, and they pulled things out. This was after a trip where I mentioned the skirt, and they told me to wait and bring it in. They wanted to know if I was looking for "work" or more casual, and pulled things accordingly. When I couldn't decide between two sweaters, to complete the look, we asked another sales person for his opinion. They grasp the concept that I only wanted to buy ONE, but which one? AND they even suggested that I didn't need to buy both.

Unfortunately for my curvy hips, I have to have their slacks tailored, BUT they're made so that tailoring is easier, as compared to other brands of women's clothes. The difference is how the waist band is put on, compare women's slacks to men's slacks - the men's are made to be tailored, but most women's isn't - the men's will have a verticle seam hiding under the center back belt loop, but most women's slacks / skirts won't. I'm not happy about needing to have things tailored, but to get the fit right, it's a necessary evil.

Anyway, I'm a happy Banana Republic customer.