Backpacking

[eofelis]

I have a fair amount of backpack experience, though I have only gone out a few times in the last few years. I also have done some bike touring and plan to do more and want to keep my gear weight down for that too.

I am going on a 3-5 day trip into the Needles District of Canyonlands National Park in mid-March with a group of folks. I went to the Maze District of CNP last year at that time on a 4wd trip and the weather was great, warm with no rain. Hoping for the same this year although it has been colder and wetter on the Colorado Plateau this year.

I weigh 110lbs, so I want to keep my pack weight down. 30lbs is a bit much for me, I'd like to stay down to 25lbs (or less)

I just got a Gregory Deva 60 pack. It was on a great sale price at the current REI clearance sale: $75 (reg. $250). It replaces my Kelty Zuni which I felt was too big for me. The Kelty has more space, but I want/need to carry less anyways.

I know the Deva is not a lightweight pack, it's 5lbs. I looked at lightweight packs and they didn't seem to have the support I'd like to have.

Last weekend I put 20lbs in the Deva and went on a 5 mile hike on a snowy trail and I was very impressed with the comfort and fit of this pack. So I think with 5 more lbs in it will still be ok.

The CNP trip is a 7 mile trip in, 7 miles out, in a flat canyon bottom. There will be running water so we can filter from that. I'll just carry 2L of water to drink. I use platypus containers with a drinking tube.

I've just been doing a practice packing of this pack. I tried my Northface Snowshoe sleeping bag which compresses pretty well for a synthetic, but it just takes up too much room in this small pack. So right now I have my NF Blue Kazoo down bag. I'm a bit concerned about rain, but I think it will be ok. I have an Alps Orion 1 person tent, 3lbs. I may be sharing a 5lb tent with another gal, but for now I'm assuming I'll bring my own. My REI core-lite pad is 1lb 9oz, but it is a bit bulky. I have a Thermarest 3/4 length superlight pad, but it's not too much less bulky.

For clothes I am only taking what is necessary: 1 pair zipoffs, lightweight shortsleeve and longsleeve (Sportif, buttonfront nylon), upper and lower base layer, fleece pullover or fleece jacket (to use as pillow too), Marmot Precip jacket and pants, 3 extra pair smartwool socks. I think I have enough stuff to layer if it gets cold. Hat and gloves too.

With the above items in my pack right now it weighs 15 lbs; 10lbs is gear, not too bad. But I don't have much room left in this pack.

I still have to add food and water. I'm thinking of not bringing a stove or pot. I do have a Sweetwater filter. I may be able to get hot water from someone in the group for tea, etc. I'm thinking of just eating cold food. I have dried hummus and dried black beans to hydrate and put on flatbread. Maybe baby carrots, tuna or chicken in foil packs, string cheese, Primal Strips (like jerky), clif bars, bagels, gorp, etc.

For boots I may wear my Lowa hiking boots (not too heavy) or Montrail goretex trail shoes. Also bringing Teva sandals, there may be water crossings.

If anyone has any suggestions for backpacking for petite women, I'd like to hear them.

I'm having fun planning this and figuring out what I do and don't need.

[Dianyla]

I've also got a Gregory Deva 60. As long as you stay somewhere under 30 lbs packweight it should be fine. Once you go above that, it really does not handle the weight well. My biggest issue with the Deva was space capacity. I originally bought it to do a hut-to-hut type of backpacking trip where I didn't have to carry a tent, stove, bear equipment, or water filtration system. It's a great pack for low-volume trips and I absolutely love the way it fits. When I started trying to use it for extended trips with all of the additional equipment, it got really stuffed really fast. At that point I always ended up strapping the tent and other items onto the outside and the whole system started getting really shifty and unwieldy.

I eventually ended up buying an Arc'teryx Bora 75 women's pack (thank god for SteepAndCheap - I got it for $185). This bag has quite a bit more capacity and can handle upwards of 40 lbs with surprising comfort. Granted, the pack itself weighs something like 7.5 lbs. I do try to keep my pack weight down as much as possible. I almost always buy the lightest weight items that I can afford within reason. E.g. minimal titanium cookware, 3/4 length pad, petite-length women's sleeping bag, my two-person tent is 4 lbs total weight, etc.

However, try as I may, my pack weight always creeps up into the 35-40 lb range when I'm doing full backpacking with several days of food. Especially in cooler climate areas where rain gear and a cold-weather sleeping bag is a must, and in bear country when I have to carry a bear can, spray, etc. It just adds up.

As much as the concepts of ultralight backpacking appeal to me, I'm simply not willing to give up certain creature comforts like a tent (vs. a tarp or bivvy) or a stove (vs. eating cold food) or leaving behind what I consider to be critical essentials of safety (at least 1-2 days of extra food, full first aid & emergency kit, extra batteries for my headlight, a folding knife, etc.). So, I've pretty much resigned myself to becoming strong enough to carry more. Upper body and core exercises help a lot, and I always use trekking poles.

One thing that I do is keep a gear spreadsheet and weigh everything in my pack list. This way, when I'm trying to look for things to cut and lighten the pack, I can see how much it's going to save me (or not). I've got certain sub-groups of gear for "cold weather only" or "bear country" that I can easily add/remove from the total when I'm prepping for a trip.

[lph]

Dianyla has some good points. I'm not as short as you are, but I really resent carrying more than absolutely necessary, so I know what you're talking about. Hiking in 7 miles isn't that far, though, so you can probably take a little more than the bare necessities for comfort in camp. I guess you'll ve taking day trips from camp?

I have an Arcteryx Bora 75 too (which is 62 L in my size, THAT they didn't tell me in the store... :mad: ) that I like, and my best camping girlbuddy has a Gregory that she's completely enamored with.

Random thoughts:

- clothes: For short trips I try to figure out how many layers I'll need for the coldest (and wettest) weather I'll meet. Then I add what I HAVE to change after a hiking day - eg. socks and a sleeveless base layer. Everything else is basically a luxury. For a 4-5 day trip I'd want to have an second base layer for day trips, even if it were wool. I sweat a lot :rolleyes:
- tent: I'd never carry a tent just in case. Can you find out in advance whether you can share or not? Tents are heavy.
- sleeping bag: down bags are great, but are happiest if you can hang them out to air/dry for 15-30 mins every other day or so. The weather forecast should tell you if you'll have enough dry weather to do so.
- food: food is heavy. Hot food is to my mind MUCH better than cold food. I also like having hot drinks available in camp, I need a lot more heat when living outside. I'd go for a stove (shared with someone), fuel and freeze-dried dinners. They're expensive but very lightweight. Otherwise I usually eat musli with powdered milk and hot (!) water for breakfast, energy bars and sandwiches for lunch. I haven't found anything I like enough to replace bread, but I have found a truly brilliant wholegrain musli bread, full of nuts, dried fruit and raisins, with the consistency and weight of a brick ;)
- water: filling a water bladder thingy from a stream can be a little tricky. But someone will probably have a cup or a solid bottle.

Have fun :)

[DebW]

I backpack with a base weight of about 16 lb. for summer and early fall trips on the Appalachian Trail. I use the Granite Gear Vapor Trail pack which weighs 2 lb. My sleeping bag is a Montbell down bag that weight 23 oz and compresses quite small. I use a 10 oz torso-sized inflatable pad from backpackinglight.com (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/torsolite_inflatable_sleeping_pad.html), that provides reasonable comfort and takes up very little pack space. You can put your pack under your legs for additional insulation. This site (http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/xdpy/s/Sleeping/index.html) has some lightweight closed-cell foam pads. Also, consider chemicals rather than a filter if you have a fairly clean source of moving water. Aquamira is very good or the new chlorine dioxide tablets. For a stove, try a homemade or commercial alcohol stove - they weigh about 0.5 oz and have no moving parts to break. Combined with a titanium pot of ~0.9 liter and a cozy (insulation for the pot), you get a cook kit that weighs only 1 lb including cup and spoon/spork. You minimize fuel use by bringing things to a boil and letting them sit in the cozy to cook.I tend to carry a hammock and tarp, or just a tarp if shelters are available. If you prefer a tent, there are some excellent single-walled lightweight tents available such as these (http://www.tarptent.com/). You've got the right idea on clothing, but I'd reduce the number of socks you carry. Plan to get 2 days per pair or wash them while you're out. If you sew, you can make yourself rainpants from silnylon that weigh only 3 oz.

Good luck and have a great trip.

[Kimmyt]

I don't really have anything of value to add, I just wanted to chime in with how much I love my Deva 60. I don't do much backpacking or really long hikes, but I use it to carry all my climbing gear, and that thing is super comfy, even loaded up with a full trad rack and a set of double ropes.

<3

K.

[Jolt]

My backpacking experience so far is limited to a couple of short trips, but I'm another smaller person who likes to keep her pack weight to a reasonable level (not quite ultralight--some of the things they suggest seem to compromise a bit more on safety than I would like--but certainly in the lightweight category). Deb's suggestion about the alcohol stove is an excellent one. That's what I have used and have been happy with it. For a pot, I picked up an el-cheapo aluminum saucepan (1 qt.), sprayed the outside with black stove paint (supposed to help it heat up faster), cut off most of the handle and used aluminum foil for a lid. I know aluminum isn't the best thing to cook in but for the occasional backpacking trip I don't think it's that big of a problem, as opposed to using it on a regular basis. When deciding hot vs. cold food keep in mind that cold food is often HEAVIER because of its higher moisture content--if you're using things like Lipton side dishes, oatmeal etc. for hot food these are very lightweight and if you just plan to cook near a water source you don't even have to carry the water for cooking them very far. I also second the suggestion of using the chlorine dioxide tablets for water treatment rather than carrying a filter--the stuff is similar to what's used for municipal water treatment (i.e. tap water) and doesn't really have a noticeable taste. The tablets are nice as opposed to the drops (Aqua Mira) because there's no waiting and no risk of spillage. Just make sure your pocketknife/multitool has a scissor because the packaging of the tablets (at least the Katadyn MicroPur that I've used) is a real pain to open. As far as a sleeping pad, why not use one of the basic blue closed-cell pads, they are the lightest thing you can use although admittedly bulky (I strap mine to the outside of the pack). You can cut it to exactly the length you want it, as well.

[SadieKate]

I tried my Northface Snowshoe sleeping bag which compresses pretty well for a synthetic, but it just takes up too much room in this small pack. So right now I have my NF Blue Kazoo down bag. I'm a bit concerned about rain, but I think it will be ok. Are you worried about the down not drying? Don't. Remember how dry the climate is there and how windy. We've used Big Agnes down bags inside tents in that area in March when we had a lot of rain. No problems. They didn't collect dampness at all.

[Brandi]

Ok now for my .02
get rid of the teva's unless they are flip flops and get some crocks. My husband and I use those shoes all the time on trips like that. They are so light wieght it's not even funny.
And as far as the stove thing goes deffinatly find out if you can share with someone. If not you need to bring one. My dh and can survive on just using a large stainless type mug or enamelware . That you can heat on a stove. We use them for cereal, soup and tea/coffee.
And please tell me you are going to bring a parka for rain or something? Never risk something like that! Besides you don't want the other people in your group to have to worry about you when it comes to that.
But see if you can share a stove with someone and offer to carry some of thier food maybe.
My dh and are want to go with you! We will share our stove!

[SadieKate]

And please tell me you are going to bring a parka for rain or something? Never risk something like that! Besides you don't want the other people in your group to have to worry about you when it comes to that.


Marmot Precip jacket and pantsPrecip . . . precipitation.

[eofelis]

SadieKate beat me to it, I do have rainwear, and a raincover for my pack as well.

Thanks for all the great info ladies! I have a few new ideas now.

I think I may go out for a hike today with the pack.

If I don't bring a stove I'm pretty sure I can just get some hot water from someone else with a stove. I thought I might get a couple of those Mtn House dried dinners, just add hot water.

I'll look into the tablets for water purifying, other people in the group were talking about them. But the water that is there may be silty from runoff.

[roadie gal]

I used to do a lot of backpacking. I usually ended up taking a lot of stuff. I'm a hedonist who likes to sleep comfy, so I had a 3/4 Thermarest that I stuck on top of a full length closed cell foam (like a Ridge Rest or other cheap foam) pad. I carried the foam pad on the outside of the pack so I could use it as a seat whenever I sat to rest.

Do you have a compression stuff sack for the sleeping bag? Those things are great for really getting the sleeping bag into a small ball. They don't weigh much more than a regular stuff sack.

You'll be much happier with some hot food. I second the other's suggestions on a lightweight stove and a small aluminum pot.

[Jolt]

As far as visible "crud" in the water, one possibility is to pre-filter it through a bandanna to strain that stuff out as you fill your container--I haven't personally tried this yet since my trips have been in places where it wasn't necessary, but it seems to be widely recommended. I also second the Crocs for stream crossings/camp shoes--they can be Crocs knockoffs, don't even have to be the "real thing". Much lighter than anything else you can carry for that purpose (other than nothing at all, which I don't recommend after one trip where I did that, had to cross a stream barefoot, and fell in!).

[li10up]

If I don't bring a stove I'm pretty sure I can just get some hot water from someone else with a stove.
I would check with them beforehand. I know on the trips that I've been on most people don't like it when people ask to "borrow stuff"...their thought being I had to carry it in, so should you...they had to carry the stove and the fuel and maybe they had the fuel measured out for thier use only and it kind of puts them in a bind. Just something to think about...

[li10up]

Coffee filters work good for filtering water that you want to treat chemically.

[Dianyla]

I would check with them beforehand. I know on the trips that I've been on most people don't like it when people ask to "borrow stuff"...their thought being I had to carry it in, so should you...they had to carry the stove and the fuel and maybe they had the fuel measured out for their use only and it kind of puts them in a bind. Just something to think about...
Yes, thanks for pointing this out. Common/shared items should always be very clearly negotiated beforehand. I wouldn't hesitate to loan everything from food/water to shelter and clothing if someone in my party needed assistance in an emergency situation. But, simply because they chose to lighten their pack weight and mooch off of me? I'm suddenly not feeling quite so charitable.

Consider the importance of redundancy in case of gear failure. Even if two people each bring their own stove, or water filter, etc. it's possible that one will fail. This happened to me on the first day of a 5-day trek in the Andes. My buddy and I agreed to share my stove and my tent. The very first time I used my stove to cook, I ended up melting my stove dial knob down into an unusable blob of goo. I'd never used it super high elevation before and I have no idea why it overheated like that. We spent the rest of the trip relying on our guide's loaned stove & fuel (which happened to be a 50 year old cast iron monster that used a 2-liter pop bottle full of liquid kerosene as fuel).

It's also easy to forget things. That same trip, I packed my tent in my backpack, but somehow managed to leave the tent poles 5000 miles away. We were able to rig something up with trekking poles and rope the first night, and were very fortunate to borrow a spare tent from another group for the rest of that trip (similar to the stove, it was a ~50 year old army issue canvas pup tent that was drafty and weighed a ton).

Also, think about what happens if you were to get separated from your party. Of course, when you go out into the wild with other people you are all depending on each other. But you should be at least decently equipped to fend for yourself should you become lost or separated from them.

Newbie mistakes, forgetting something, and gear that fails in the field are an inevitable part of backpacking. **** happens, right? But I would be hesitant to backpack again with someone who repeatedly fails to plan and bring appropriate equipment and continues to have "emergencies" where they need to borrow items. It's not just discourteous, it's potentially very dangerous.

[Brandi]

Precip . . . precipitation.Ahhhhhhhhh, duh!

[eofelis]

Canyonlands Needles Backpacking trip March 2008

Day 1: 5 miles to camp spot
Day 2: 7 miles to camp spot
Day 3: Day hike out of camp
Day 4: 7 miles back to first camp spot
Day 5: 5 miles to trailhead

Gear list.
~30lbs total

I don’t have a scale other than my bathroom scale, so I don’t know the exact weights of most things.

Gregory Deva 60 pack. ~5lbs. Not the lightest, but it’s what I have. It’s better than what I had been using, Kelty Zuni, which was too big and had too much capacity for what I thought was my maximum load.
Rain cover for pack.

Alps Mountaineering Orion 1 tent. ~3lbs. Not the lightest tent out there but it is what I have. Heavy plastic cut to shape for ground cloth.

TNF Blue Kazoo 20degree down bag, plus a silk bag liner for extra warmth. ~3lbs.
Fleece top used for pillow.

I haven’t quite settled on a sleeping pad yet. I cut a cheapie closed cell pad down to just my size, it would be rolled up and strapped on the outside of my pack. I could also use it to sit on outside at dinner, etc. I wouldn’t have to worry about punctures, etc. I may instead use a ¾ UL Thermarest that folds and rolls up to about quart bottle size, but space in my pack is at a premium.

Sweetwater filter, extra cartridge, brush, silt filter (they don’t call it the Colorado River for nothing!), nylon water sack for filling and letting sit for the silt to settle out. I will be sharing this with 1 or 2 other people.

I will carry 2L of water while I hike. 2 Platypus 1L containers, plus drinking tube. Spare 2L platypus container to fill in camp.

Black Diamond trekking poles, useful for water crossings.

(Stove, MSR Whisperlite, 2 small fuel bottles, and MSR pot, but another person will carry this and I will share it with him and maybe one other person. Only for heating water. The stove and pump fits in the pot.)

Clothes. Temps 30-55, 20% chance of showers
Wearing on 1st day: REI zipoffs, lightweight long sleeve base layer top, sports bra, Marmot fleece pullover or fleece jacket (I will bring only one fleece and haven’t decided between the two yet).
Smartwool socks, Lowa goretex boots, these are pretty lightweight for full boots. I often hike in trail shoes (Montrails) but there is expected to be a lot of surface water.
Teva sandals. Some have suggested crocs, and I got some cheapies, but I may have some big water crossings and I want something sturdy on my feet.
Either low gaitors or higher goretex gaitors. If I hike in wet conditions even with gaitors my lower legs tend to get wet from my gait so I may like the higher gaitors. May bring both.
Another pair of REI zipoff pants
Buttondown Sportif nylon longsleeve shirt (can roll up sleeves if it gets warm)
Another long sleeve base layer to sleep in
Base layer bottom for sleeping.
Smartwool socks for each day. (Sleep in next days socks)
Nylon undies for each day
One extra sports bra
Sunhat
Warm fleece hat
Light gloves
Marmot Precip rain jacket and pants
I figure that I can layer most of these clothes if it gets really cold!

3 large bandanas; 1 for my head, one for a hanky, one for other misc. uses.

Food for 5 days. 4 Dinners, Mtn House.
3 breakfasts, granola type breakfast food, cold.
Also have tea bags and packets of instant coffee, packets of energy drink mix, one of each for each day.
3 lunches/snacks (I’m a grazer), Primal Strips, foil pack chicken or tuna, my own trail mix (almond m&ms, pnutbtr m&ms, almonds, shelled pistachios), clif bars, salted nut rolls.
I was monitoring my eating on the days I took my pack out for day hikes for practice and have tried to plan for what I might eat, which is more than I thought! I can really use very calorie I can force myself to eat.
Spoon/fork utensil.
Go-mug for drinks.

Small digital camera, extra batteries
Compass with mirror and thermometer
Small med kit in baggie
Contact lense stuff and eyeglasses in case
Sunglasses, hard case for storage
Wet wipes in baggie (for cat hole business). To be packed out with trash.
Small head lamp, small LED flashlight (probably only need one)
Parachute cord for hanging food

[Pedal Wench]

I haven't read through the response (have to work sometimes!) but at first glance, I noticed two things. Do you REALLY need the rain pants? Jacket, sure. But, the pants? Seems like overkill, especially in that region.

And, food. We've found that the weight of an ultralight stove and a small canister of fuel is nothing compared to bringing dehydrated food. We swear by Mountain House. If someone else is bringing a stove, offer to carry the pot, or fuel so you can have some hot water. Compared to non-dehydrated foods, like tuna and chicken, the complete meals are much more efficient.

Oh -- and I would bring the smaller sleeping pad. Every lighter option helps -- anyplace you can save an ounce here or there will add up. Conversely, every time you say that this is only a little heavier, you're adding more and more. Go lighter with every option. They all add up.

By the way, super-jealous of your trip! We don't have any backpacking planned this year, and I can tell I'm going to be missing it.

[DebW]

Good list, and reasonable weight (if that 30 lbs includes food and water). If you want to reduce pack weight further, I suggest less clothing. Don't carry that 2nd pair of zip-off pants. The beauty of the REI pants is that they are nylon and the fabric dries very quickly if it gets wet. You'll have long underwear pants and rain pants as backup. Or replace the 2nd pants with light nylon shorts that can be worn alone or over long underwear. I'd go with fewer socks, but if your feet will be happier and healthier with clean socks each day, take them. You can become very minimalist with clothing and plan to hike in the same clothes each day, changing into camp clothes each evening when you quit hiking. But that takes a certain mindset and a strong stomach.

[Dianyla]

Looks like you've got a pretty good gear list, there! :)

Some specific observations that came to my mind that you can take or leave, (YMMV :rolleyes: ):

Gear:
You might be able to dispense with the silk bag liner by bringing a better sleeping pad. I tend to get very cold at night and find that a sleeping pad with a high R value is essential, since one loses a lot of heat to the ground. Depending on what year your Deva pack is, you may have the side holster designed for a 1 Qt nalgene bottle that can hold a 3/4 thermarest quite nicely.

I always carry a space blanket sleeping bag in my emergency kit as one of my "10 essentials". Besides emergency use, this also can just make a cold miserable night immediately warm and toasty. One of the nights I was up in Denali I shivered miserably for about 5 hours and eventually gave up and popped it over my sleeping bag around 2am and within minutes I was warm for the rest of the night.

For your tent footprint, have you tried Tyvek? It works well, is cheap, and is ultralight. You can get sheets of it at Home Depot.

Can you consolidate your water bladders/bags at all? I generally just use one 3L bladder, and also have an MSR water bag that I use for filtering water.

Clothes:
I tend to just bring two sets of clothes - one for hiking in every day, one for camp/lounge/sleeping. Merino wool can be reworn for days on end without stinking, so that's something to consider. I generally only bring three pairs of smartwool socks. One to wear most days, one spare dry set, and one night set. I know it's a little gross, but I find that I get less blisters when I am wearing, erm, "seasoned" socks that have a nice coating of skin oils on the inside.

I almost always take some sort of dip or cursory rinse-off before changing into my night clothes. Even just a rinse with a liter of water makes a world of difference to rinse salt off and hit the critical spots. Also, if water is more abundant I'll do a little laundry mid-trip for quick-drying synthetic tops and hiking pants, and undies.

Another tip about the underwear - dunno if you've ever used a menstrual cup? I wear mine non-stop when I'm backpacking even if I'm not menstruating. It just keeps things tidier in the underwear dept and I can bring less pairs. (Note: Do not try this with tampons. Wearing tampons without having an active flow can lead to TSS, and besides it's just... really uncomfortable.) In contrast with the socks, I don't recommend "seasoned" underwear!

If you have to bring high gaitors anyways, and you don't anticipate more than occasional bursts of rain or merely light drizzle, you can often get away with just a poncho + gaitors, which is lighter than a full jacket + pants + gaitors.


It sounds like you're going to have an awesome trip!