Off Topic - LED Lightbulbs - Any experience?

[Mr. Bloom]

I've followed the evolution of LED lights in automotive and now in cycling signals, flash lights, etc.

I'm starting to install compact florescents, but am just not satisfied with the color or brightness of these bulbs to counteract the family's habit of leaving lights on all the time :rolleyes::o:(

So, I began wondering if there is actually an LED lightbulb for residential application.

Then, yesterday on Mythbusters, they had a test with lightbulbs that included an LED 'encrusted' bulb that used next to no electricity.

So, despite past unsuccessful efforts, I have now found a website that sells LED bulbs for residential application.

So, before I plop down bucks to experiment, the question is:

has anybody had experience using these in residential applications (I'm thinking recessed lighting fixtures to start)
do they provide a diffused light or just spots
are they too intense or are soft options available.
are there reading lamp alternatives


Here's one of the sites I found:
http://www.ledlightbulb.net/store/index.php
I've found many others that don't seem to sell retail or that would require foreign shipping...

[OakLeaf]

I don't know anything about the bulbs, but I do know I would be EXTREMELY hesitant to buy online from a company based in China, using PayPal.

[smilingcat]

Dear Mr. Silver,

There are several brands of CFL bulbs. They now come in different color temperature (more yellow, or more blue, or more like daylight). And the brightness do vary on the size/wattage.

One thing to remember is that the base of these CFL bulbs have electronics in them. So its best to keep them where there is enough air circulating or the electronic will burn out. e.g. enclosed light fixture is a big NO NO.

White LED's tend to be rather harsh. Newer ones have color adjusted LED so it gives the familiar incandescent feel but I'm not sure if you can buy those yet.

One of the engineers at the company where I work developed a white LED driver. The thing was so bright it nearly blinded me. You can't plug a white LED into regular outlet without some fireworks.

In terms of conversion efficiency watts of electricity to lumens of light, I'm not sure which is more efficient. LED is definitly more expensive but manufacturers are trying to rate them with 30,000 hr life or more. At the end of life it still gives off 80% of initial light. That was my understanding. 10 years of regular use before having to replace the bulb.

CFL do use toxic mercury. LEDs are far more benign to the environment.

CLF can not be hooked up to a dimmer!! Nor are the first generation of white LED bulbs.

hope this helps,

smilingcat

[LBTC]

Mr. Silver, I'm with you on this one. CFLs suck the big cahuna. I am hoping there will be reasonable standard light options with LEDs very soon. I sure wish the government would be putting money into LEDs not CFLs.

I bought DH an LED worklight that is very cool. To dim it, it just uses half of the LEDs. Maybe they'll do something like that with interior lights.

Keep us posted as to how it goes!

H&B
~T~

[tulip]

I'm starting to install compact florescents, but am just not satisfied with the color or brightness of these bulbs to counteract the family's habit of leaving lights on all the time :rolleyes::o:(



Fine them $5 each time they leave a light on. It's amazing how fast people can learn.

[Mr. Bloom]

Fine them $5 each time they leave a light on. It's amazing how fast people can learn.

SILVER doesn't have THAT much money!

[luv'nAustin]

Love those LED lights!

Check out this site for more information.

www.llfinc.com

Looks like LED lights are ready for prime time now!

[emily_in_nc]

One downside of some LED bulbs is radio interference. They are starting to become widely used in marine applications, and we intend to replace all the incandescent cabin lights in our sailboat with LEDs. However, of the two we've replaced so far, one of them causes interference with our TV. Interestingly, it is the more expensive of the two lights. The one that doesn't cause interference is a cheapy I bought on ebay (an automotive light). I think the newer ones are getting better re. interference, but I'd buy and try one of the brand you're considering before changing over an entire home to them.

Neat that you're looking into LED for the home! I imagine they will be the next big wave. We use CFL in our home, and they're okay (better than they used to be), but they aren't as satisfying as incandescent, except for the "green" aspects.

Emily

[smilingcat]

Some of the engineers at my office are "playing" with next generation LEDs. You can't look into them because they are just too bright. They only need 3 or 4 of these LEDs to put out the same amount of light as a 100W incandescent bulbs. Yet, they consume only 10W to 14W of electricity.

The color of the light was really indistinguishable from the incandescent ones. I thought they were nice. The LED "bulb" still got really hot. Hot enought to burn your finger though.

The ones you can buy in stores right now are far cry from the ones the guys are "playing" with at my office.

-----------------
The radio interference is not from the LEDs themselves but the power converter they use. It's a high efficiency converter called switching regulators. They make lots of radio noise. If designed right, they don't make much noise, If poorly designed or made cheaply, they make lots of "noise".

smilingcat

[Mr. Bloom]

Love those LED lights!

Check out this site for more information.

www.llfinc.com

Looks like LED lights are ready for prime time now!

I've contacted the company since none of the distributors are near me.

I'd ike to see if they'll do a direct sell

[Trek420]

I'm not gettin' it. I know LED are very energy efficient. Do I need new lighting fixtures or can they be used in the ones I have?

Since my kitchen looks like this right now :eek: it's a good time to think about it.

[Mr. Bloom]

trek,

reading their spec sheets, it can be retrofitted into an existing recessed fixture. BUT, I don't know the cost yet.

After Silver overflowed the Jacuzzi last month, our den looks like your kitchen...so I'm thinking about changes myself!

But, at my core, I'm more convinced than ever that our country's prosperity is going to be tied to reduced energy consumption...but I also like bright, clean light...I'm hoping this offers a better solution.

[Trek420]

Well, I'm doing a remodel. I don't have a lot of dough but every time I get to chose something more energy efficient it is my chance to make a tiny difference and maybe just maybe show that a more energy efficient remodel can be beautiful.

Prosperity of this country? Whatever.

Survival of the planet I think :o This is something I've been concerned of since I was very young.

[smilingcat]

I think the cost of the LED "bulbs" to replace the incandescent one runs anywhere from $20 to $50 a piece. You do get a saving if you can amortize over their 10 to 20 year life span. If you were to include the savings from reduced electricity usage, it will pay back much quicker.

15W LED is about equivalent to 100W light bulb. so assume 20W instead of 15W to be conservative.

(100%-20%) x 100W x 6 hrs/day x 365 days = 344kw-hours of saving per year.

6 hrs/day x 365 days = 2190 hours. Regular bulb on average only last 800 hours. You would need 2.7 light bulbs per year.

Over the 10 year life span you would save 3440kw-hours per bulb and not have to replace 27 regular bulbs. Yes it will more than pay for itself over the 10 year period. and how many tons of CO2??

Now the problem isn't so much the LED bulbs themselves. It's the electronics that will burn out prematurely. I have several CFLs where the elctronics burnt out in 2 year timespan. never mind the bulb or the 5 to 10 year life expectancy. And do you have any electronic gizmos lasting 10 years or more? I can't think of any in my house.

The new high powered LEDs are just coming to market so it will be another 6 month before we will start to see them anywhere. The new white LEDs are so much more pleasing to the eye, it will be worth the wait. For now use screw based CFL. LED bulbs should have the screw base when they become available for retrofit. So not to worry about designing them in now.

Hope this helps.
Smilingcat

[Trek420]

OK, I'll just sit here in the dark and wait for screw-in LED with more pleasing light.

I expect a reminder from ya' in 6 months! ;) :D

[tc1]

I was told by somebody who works with the lighting design lab is that LEDs aren't really satisfactory for home illumination yet, but better stuff is coming. Say in a couple years.

[Mr. Bloom]

Just like me: Wanting something that's not quite ready for prime time:rolleyes:

[Trek420]

I was told by somebody who works with the lighting design lab is that LEDs aren't really satisfactory for home illumination yet, but better stuff is coming. Say in a couple years.

I may get a couple of those LED candle thingies just for fun and accent. Right now I'm so tired of being in the middle of the remodel, it's particularly trying now. H is working on the electrical, I came downstairs, nearly tripped on a coiled wire, ovens turned off, coffee makers packed ...

[Brandi]

One downside of some LED bulbs is radio interference. They are starting to become widely used in marine applications, and we intend to replace all the incandescent cabin lights in our sailboat with LEDs. However, of the two we've replaced so far, one of them causes interference with our TV. Interestingly, it is the more expensive of the two lights. The one that doesn't cause interference is a cheapy I bought on ebay (an automotive light). I think the newer ones are getting better re. interference, but I'd buy and try one of the brand you're considering before changing over an entire home to them.

Neat that you're looking into LED for the home! I imagine they will be the next big wave. We use CFL in our home, and they're okay (better than they used to be), but they aren't as satisfying as incandescent, except for the "green" aspects.

Emily
You have a boat with a TV?:eek: I wanna ride!

[Brandi]

I say we should be investing in the lightbulb industry. Think about it? there will be a big push for better and more since they are going to stop the sale of reg light bulbs. If I had known I would have invested in the oil industry! just my two cents.
Oh we have switched a lot of our bulbs in our house to the new one's. They are ok. I will miss the warmth of the reg bulbs when we have to switch them all. Can't do it in the bathroom yet. To scary. shows more then I would like to see.:eek:

[Trek420]

I don't know about investing in lighbulbs but if I was shopping for investments, mutual funds etc I'd be looking at the companies ecco policy and how "green" they are. I'm sure there's a mutual fund or so that does that. :cool:

[Mr. Bloom]

I say we should be investing in the lightbulb industry.

Not quite yet Brandi...new generation bulbs last many times longer and have much higher production costs...

[tulip]

I don't know about investing in lighbulbs but if I was shopping for investments, mutual funds etc I'd be looking at the companies ecco policy and how "green" they are. I'm sure there's a mutual fund or so that does that. :cool:

There are lots, actually. My investment firm that handles my 401k has options for green investments, socially responsible investments, etc. They do just fine, and I imagine the will do better in the years to come and more is invested in green stuff and technology. Google and yea shall find.

[Trek420]

I like socially responsible investing and the idea of carbon offsets. But I what I'm doing now is making my own home a "carbon project" :rolleyes: Why spend money on carbon offsets when my own windows are not dual pane or I have ineficient appliances? When I've done all I can to my own house and lifestyle (I'm considering a new or newer car with lower miles or hybrid) then I'd look to more investing in "green" or greener companies.

Till then these funds are a good source of research. Whether you're buying shoes or bow ties you can find which companies are considered "greener". You may want to buy their products.

Yep, I already invest about 14% pre-tax in the company 401k but they don't give me that particular choice of funds.

[Mr. Bloom]

Two things:

1. Go to www.morningstar.com ... you can join for free and if you search "green investing" they have some guides

2. Funny call at the office from the local gas company this week.

Two years ago, I had to plan and manage the gutting and total renovation of my office building. I got the board to accept a budget that included 10% being devoted to replacing the HVAC system with 90% efficiency furnaces. The economic rationale being a 4 year payback on the investment.

This week, I get a call from Vectren (the gas company) to say that my building "showed up on a report".


"Oh", I asked..."Is that a problem? What report?"

"Well", she said, "there's been a material change in your gas utilization."

"Oh", I said, "that doesn't surprise me"...and I explained how much we invested in the HVAC and the expectation of higher efficiency...yada yada yada

"Well", she said, "that's great, but the reason you're on the list is that your gas consumption went to nearly nothing".
They came and checked the meters yesterday...and the high efficiency investment reduced our gas consumption to nearly nothing in a 6,000 square foot, 50 year old building, with 23 employees and hundreds of customers coming and going constantly

How 'bout that! My guess is that the payback is less than 4 years at current prices...

I will admit that I'm not a naturally "green" person although I've always respected the cause...but when you combine good stewardship of the environment with good economics, you will achieve wide scale change in behavior. This is where we are today...

[Trek420]

I will admit that I'm not a naturally "green" person although I've always respected the cause...but when you combine good stewardship of the environment with good economics, you will achieve wide scale change in behavior. This is where we are today...

Oh great, another thing me to replace :rolleyes: Way to save money and the enviornment Mr. S. :D

I've always championed the enviornment but now I really don't care why people make greener choices. I'm a teeny tiny cog in a beeeeg company but am on the safety crew for our building and hence get to be in long meetings with building services management for the East Bay. Lucky me. :rolleyes:

So I talked to the guy, hey, "we own the buildings, why not go solar?" He said the company is exploring options but wants things with a quick return like 2 years.

In San Francisco the city gives additional incentives above the normal tax and PG&E stuff for solar and replacing lighting. We'd be fools not to do it there. "it's under review blah blah blah"

He said they are replacing all windows with ones that better reflect light/heat in summer and retain in winter, there are recycle bins everywhere .... lots of other projects too.

I am sharing information with him on LED's. I'm sure he's aware. Co's have reaped tremendous savings by replacing those mandated illuminated EXIT signs with LED. We have what are locally called BART boards, lit rolling announcement boards in call centers. They could easily be LED right now.

I don't care why people choose "greener" choices initially or on replacement even if it's just cheaper or for fashion whatever. Just do it. :rolleyes:

[emily_in_nc]

You have a boat with a TV?:eek: I wanna ride!

Yep, we bought the cheapest 15" flat screen that Best Buy had, and a set of rabbit ears. We can pick up the four major networks, two in high-def, which is pretty cool since we don't even have HD at home! We spend nights on the boat when we are down there, so it's nice to have the TV for sports and the occasional show in the evening. We also get a local all-weather channel, which is the most useful one for the boat - shows radar, wind speed, etc. etc.

Believe it or not, a lot of sailors (and power boaters) with larger boats (ours is 30', not huge, but a cruising boat, not a trailerable) have TVs. We also have a microwave! Yep, we're a bit spoiled.... :D

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread!

Emily

[smilingcat]

with every thing said so far, CFL may not be the best solution, but it is still far better than the old fashioned incandescent bulbs.

SO REPLACE THEM WITH CFL!!!

We are looking into the latest generation of solar water heater using evacuated heat tubes. Total system cost is about $3,000 with installation. Plus the energy credit from the fed/local, I think it will payback in about 3 to 4 years like Mr. Silver's office.

The hot water can be used for baseboard heaters too.

Several companies who sell solar water heater:

www.siliconsolar.com
www.thermotech.com

www.solartoday.org has lots of good information and links.

Shawn