23% Grade - Heart Rate Approaching DEATH - Help???

[Mr. Bloom]

I'm being ficitious, but there's a sincere question here:

Tonight, I did a nearly 19 mile ride to the north side of Bloomington.

Several Weeks ago, I posed a question regarding maximum heart rate in this post (http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=16963&highlight=heart+rate).

The general consensus was that although the formulas give guidance, we're all different...but that our heart rate CAN'T go over it's Max...OK, I get this.

But, tonight, I tried the county's toughest hill...peaked at 26% grade.:eek:

I only made it 3/4 of the way up. When I saw the painted Dan Henry that indicated the "Puke Zone", I knew I wasn't a pioneer...;)

But, I had to stop and walk:

My heart rate was 211, grade was 20%+, I was in granny gear and ready to barf (although I didn't):(

Although I thought my actual Max was about 185, last weekend, I hit a wall at 195 and then tonight, I hit 211bpm

So, the question is:

is this a health risk...could I have had a heart attack?
should I have kept going, or should I have stopped as I did?
did my heart rate hit a new high because of good fitness or poor fitness (I've not been able to ride much in the last three weeks)?


Is there something else I should be considering?

Here's the chart from my Garmon off Motion Based showing my heart rate and the elevation:

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa201/MrSilver1963/untitled.jpg

What do you think?:confused:

[keeper]

is this a health risk...could I have had a heart attack?
should I have kept going, or should I have stopped as I did?
did my heart rate hit a new high because of good fitness or poor fitness (I've not been able to ride much in the last three weeks)?


I
What do you think?:confused:

I have to think back a couple years to when I was a nurse in a cardiac unit:)

Your max HR is not a real max, but a guideline on how how high you can safely up (generally based on age). The danger of running a really high heart rate is you end up pumping less blood to the body than you do at a lower HR (the heart has less time to fill, so less if pumped out each beat which leads to a lower cardiac output). You can't sustain a really high heart rate for a long time - you'll get light headed and eventually pass out. In theory you could have a 'heart attack' if you have underlaying coronary artery disease (partially blocked arteries that supply blood/oxygen to your heart muscle) and sustained the elevated HR long enough to cause damage to the cardiac muscle (from lack of O2)

You were right to stop when you did, if you pushed on and elevated your heart rate more, or just sustained that HR you would have gotten dizzy, nausea, passed out, etc.

Your body can respond to the same situation in different ways at different times. Depends on what you ate, how you sleep, stress, tired muscles, etc. So it may be due to lack of riding that your HR was higher today, or it may be for some other reason.

[Mr. Bloom]

The danger of running a really high heart rate is you end up pumping less blood to the body than you do at a lower HR (the heart has less time to fill, so less if pumped out each beat which leads to a lower cardiac output).

Wow! I'm 44 years old and had no idea about this!:o

That puts a lot in perspective for me.

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

"Approaching death"??? :eek: :eek: :eek:
Call me nuts, but if my heart was pounding that fast and I felt like throwing up.... I would STOP doing what I was doing immediately! :( :( :(

Exercise is good, but is it actually good for you to overstress your heart so much? What if it just quits, what will you do then? (you won't be doing much I'll wager) :( :( Is it GOOD for your heart to do this?- I'd really be interested in knowing that- any experts out there?...

[KSH]

"Approaching death"??? :eek: :eek: :eek:
Call me nuts, but if my heart was pounding that fast and I felt like throwing up.... I would STOP doing what I was doing immediately! :( :( :(

Exercise is good, but is it actually good for you to overstress your heart so much? What if it just quits, what will you do then? (you won't be doing much I'll wager) :( :( Is it GOOD for your heart to do this?- I'd really be interested in knowing that- any experts out there?...

Ah now... feeling like throwing up after a good hard run or ride... is invigorating (?spelling?)!

I always love that feeling after I really push it on a run.

[7rider]

Are you sure that's an accurate reading???
My Garmin is prone to giving me false readings - I've had HR's in the 220 range - I KNOW that's not right. I have a max speed somewhere in my database of 375 mph.
Not sure how you felt vs. other more "normal" high HR readings, but from my experience with Garmin HRM's - including second hand reports from others who term it "junk' - I'd take the outlyer reading with a grain of salt....
Look at the points around it....

[Mr. Bloom]

I have a max speed somewhere in my database of 375 mph.


Wow! You're really good:D :D :D

I really think it was right...I had never felt like that before...

[DarcyInOregon]

I think the Garmin's or any other heart rate machine's false readings are when there is interference, and the cyclist is not going up a killer of a grade. My hunch is the heart rate of 220 was probably accurate, given the circumstances.

Mr. Silver, good for you for getting as far as you did. I am envious. Honest to goodness, I wish I could read a post like this and say, "Huh, I go up 10 miles of 28% grades every day and my heart rate doesn't go past 150.":p In my dreams, only. :p

Like Lisa said, stop. Whenever you feel something going wrong, stop.

But gosh, that is brave, to even try a grade that steep. Kudos.

Darcy

[Di bear]

I'm not quite sure how the Garmin works, but I know some HR monitors will figure a heart rate based on the time lapse between two beats. So, your heart beats only twice, and it gets a rate. If you have an arrhythmia, I suppose the Garmin could pick this up and record it (computers don't account for irregular heart rates). I would suggest stopping and manually taking your heart rate.

Maybe you should get set up for an EKG to get a baseline reading. :)

Also, I honestly feel that your heart rate should not go above 190 or so. There are limits.

[Torrilin]

Basically, you went *splat* on the hill. The idea is to stop just before you hit the nausea point. Then try the same hill on another ride. And another. Keep doing it, and eventually your circulatory system will develop the strength to handle such a steep hill. Your body *will* get the message from just trying once or twice a week.

Pushing to the nausea point means there's good odds of you not thinking straight. Even if it's fine for your body in the abstract, it's a silly thing to do on a road. Bad judgment leads to accidents, whether it comes from alcohol or oxygen deprivation.

[Thorn]

Thanks keeper for the explanation....(and, of course, Mr. Silver for starting the thread). I hit a new high BPM this weekend (the hill only peaked at 19% but in a series of rollers where the longest was 1/2 mile long). I hit the nausea point, but it doesn't sound as bad as Mr. Silver; DH took the route of valor and engaged "La Nona" and got off and walked. Darn...now I found out he probably did the right thing.

[lph]

jumping in late into the max HR discussion: I borrowed a HRM for a couple of weeks, and overshot my formula-calculated "max" immediately. I was then told that the formula was just to give a rough number to work with, because actually measuring your max HR is so uncomfortable - biking up a hill til you almost puke was mentioned - that a lot of people can't be bothered to do so.

Sounds like Mr. Silver just did ;)

[Look]

You know, you can get assessed and find out what your HR max should be and what your "zones" are. My asssessment was called New Leaf but there's others, ask at your health club. Usually they'll cost you although your gym membership may discount it. But I found it truly useful information. For one thing, having never been an athlete I didn't really know how hard to work. And not having an objective standard, I worked according to whatever my inspiration was that day. Once I had something to shoot for, I improved my fitness rapidly and lost weight steadily.

Find an assessment, part with the bucks and make your workouts count!

[GLC1968]

I typed up a reply to this last night and then I lost my connection to TE! :mad:


Your true max HR is genetically predetermined and it does not change. That said, the max you determine for sports is, like keeper suggested, a line in the sand over which you shouldn't regularly go. But, it is possible to hit close to your true max in a high stress situatio. From my experience, I seems that it is highly unlikely that your true max is the same as your theoretical max (no matter how you determine it). Based on your description, my guess is that you were very close (if not there) to your true max at 211 bpm. It's not a place at which we want to spend a lot of time...particularly in an uncontrolled environment! As we get in better shape, we develop the ability to work closer and closer to that true max for longer and longer periods of time. But the actual real max number will not change (and somebody correct me if I've read incorrectly on this!).

As an example, my theoretical max is 181 or thereabouts. I've had my max scientifically determined (running on a treadmill) and it came out to 179/180. A few months back when I was doing intervals, I was doing all I could to avoid puking at each of the last few intervals and the highest HR reading I got was 178. While riding my regular rides, including the occasional mountain climb, the highest I've ever seen was 174. My true max is likely about the same as my theoretical one at around 180 or so. Of all the fitness people I know, I've never met anyone who's true max was as close to the 220-age thing as mine. I always thought *I* was the weird one when I couldn't post HR numbers as high as my friends all did! :p

Anyway, my point is that I'm guessing that your true max is actually somewhere around 211.

And to answer your questions:
Could that cause a heart attack? I don't know. I have no experience with this...
Should you have kept going? No, you were right to stop when you did. Keep working on that hill and eventually you'll be able to do it without getting the HR up that high AND you will eventually get to where you are comfortable sustaining a higher HR for longer periods (probably not THAT high, though).
Is this any indication of your fitness level? Seeing new 'max' numbers? No, not really. I think that being stronger or even well rested might have made you capable of hitting new highs, but your max isn't really changing due to fitness. You are probably getting to the point where your body can work harder than your heart is capable. It takes a certain level of fitness to get to that point.

[batsheva]

the HR on the monitor instantly spiked up and instantly 'recovered' back down-- if it had really hit 211 it would have come down in a curve like the other variations on your graph. it was a misreading, i promise-- i have stared at cardiac monitors in icu for last 18 years fulltime and 211 would not suddenly recover as the graph indicated ever. unless it 'recovered' from 211 to ZERO:eek:

bat

[GLC1968]

batsheva - that's a really good point. I didn't notice that. I agree...it's probably an errant reading! Looking at that graph, your max is probably somewhere in the 190's....

[indysteel]

Mr. Silver, out of curiosity, what hill were you climbing? Boltinghouse Road?

I don't have any expert knowledge to add. I've seen my heartrate as high as 220 on hill in Brown County State Park. My heartrate runs pretty high anyway, but that scared me.

K-

[kelownagirl]

I'm in the "not likely accurate readout" camp. I have a Garmin and it gives me super high readings once in awhile. I figure my max HR is around 185. My usual high up the dreaded hill is round 180 but sometimes it shoots up to 225 or so when I fly down that hill. It's at the very beginning of my ride so I think the thing just isn't "set" quite yet and although I'm sure HR does shoot up high when I'm doing 60+ kmh, I'm positive it didn't really go up to 225.

If I were you, I'd be more worried if it stayed at that high rate over a period of time. It would be interesting to stop and take it manually to see if it really was that high...

[Andrea]

Also, I honestly feel that your heart rate should not go above 190 or so. There are limits.

Maybe for you, but my average HR for a 4 mile time trial is 191. My max is 205, and I'm 26 years old.

220-age is just a prediction. Like someone said earlier, it's not going to kill you to be at your max, but it's not optimal because of the slight reduction in cardiac output. You can't physically sustain a max heart rate for long enough to feel serious ill effects from a reduced cardiac output, so, barring a pre-existing cardiac abnormality, there really is no danger in allowing your heart rate to get that high.

As your fitness improves, it's common to see a slight decrease in max heart rate. This goes back to the cardiac output thing- the better shape you're in, the more blood your heart can pump out with each beat, so it doesn't have to beat as many times per minute to move the same amount of blood per minute that it did before you started training. That's why your resting and submaximal heartrates decrease significantly when you go from being sedentary to well-trained. Max HR won't always decrease, and if it does, the decrease is not as dramatic as the changes seen in resting & submaxiaml heart rates.

[Di bear]

Maybe for you, but my average HR for a 4 mile time trial is 191. My max is 205, and I'm 26 years old.

Andrea, I'm not going by a chart. I'm going by what I "honestly feel" and the 190 is a ballpark figure. So, I think your 191 is perfect. If the goal is to increase stroke volume, which is what it really should be, then consistently getting your HR super high is not necessarily the way to do it.

I don't use a heart rate monitor because I personally feel that HR training is bunk, but that's just my personal opinion. I often climb at my "max" of 190 (I'll manually check my heart rate once in a while, especially if it feels really high and hard). I know I could go above it, but I don't feel it is necessary, and it could even become problematic. I stop and drink when my HR gets "too high." The heart is not the only muscle you're training. If your HR is getting that high, then it's your other muscles that are begging for mercy, not the heart. Slow down. Do an an endurance workout. Don't punish your heart because other muscles are undertrained. Your legs don't have to hurt to be working anaerobically.

For me, I prefer to keep my HR in the 160-180 zone. That is just where I am when I ride. If I go above that, then that is an indicator that I need to reassess my training and come at it from a different angle. Usually, that angle is endurance training. (Long, long, slow, hill climbs.) As stated before, I don't always measure, but I go by how I feel.

The reason why I thought of an arrhythmia is because I've seen a lot of them on peripheral vascular and carotid ultrasounds. They're not uncommon. You'd have a few normal beats, then a quick beat, then a few seconds of no beat. Something like that might throw the Garmin off. That's why an EKG may be a good idea. Get a baseline to know where you're at. It could be something as serious as a septal defect, or it could be nothing at all. :) Another issue is that it might not be your "true" max (I'm talking about the 212 and 225 HRs thrown out there), but tachycardia for whatever reason.

I've spent a lot of time with sick people, so I'm just cautious.

[Deanna]

Were you anywhere near a traffic signal when the spike occured? There's a few in my town that make my HR go whacky (like reading of 285, then immediate drops down to 90). However, a 26% grade just might spike it like that!

[Mr. Bloom]

As to the spike/errant reading: The graph is a Distance graph. If I had placed it on the Time oriented axis, it would have shown that it was 5 minutes before my bpm was below 190. So, I suspect this is an accurate reading.

Indysteel: Yes, it was Boltinghouse Road. An article last week in the local paper featured one guy who did it 14 times in one hour last week. Eek:eek:

Deanna: No traffic lights...a very rural area.

Interestingly as to my level of exhaustion approaching the hill, I road down the hill before turning around and riding up. The downhill was exhausting and made every muscle ache. The road was rough, so I had to ride the brakes all the way down. I was braking hard the entire way and couldn't slow to less than 15 mph. Now that I know where it is, I'll come at it from the opposite direction next time and see if that helps.

[El Hombre]

As to the spike/errant reading: The graph is a Distance graph. If I had placed it on the Time oriented axis, it would have shown that it was 5 minutes before my bpm was below 190. So, I suspect this is an accurate reading.

Indysteel: Yes, it was Boltinghouse Road. An article last week in the local paper featured one guy who did it 14 times in one hour last week. Eek:eek:

Deanna: No traffic lights...a very rural area.

Interestingly as to my level of exhaustion approaching the hill, I road down the hill before turning around and riding up. The downhill was exhausting and made every muscle ache. The road was rough, so I had to ride the brakes all the way down. I was braking hard the entire way and couldn't slow to less than 15 mph. Now that I know where it is, I'll come at it from the opposite direction next time and see if that helps.


I've gotten up around 190 a few times and things start to close in. SWMBO HATES it when I do that. My family has a history of heart attacks:eek: I just got my Polar back up and there is a BIG hill nearby. Hmm, what to do today??

[lph]

ok, I really wasn't going to ask this because I know, I should be asking my dr instead, BUT she really hasn't got a clue about cycling or other strenuous exercise, nor does the heart specialist I've gone to see, so bear with me please...

any of you medical types have an opinion on whether I should be avoiding stressing my heart eg. up to max HR, when I have no sign of heart disease at all, but my family all do? My dad has had a 5-double bypass, my mom has had a small heart attack, my brother died at 41 of a heart attack. All of them with very few symptoms in advance, if any.

I don't really worry about it much, but I wonder a bit if I should be more careful than most about riding alone without a cell phone, for example. All opinions welcome, qualified or un- ;)

[Mr. Bloom]

I don't really worry about it much, but I wonder a bit if I should be more careful than most about riding alone without a cell phone, for example. All opinions welcome, qualified or un- ;)

I know Norway is a safe place (my Mercedes mechanic is from Oslo), but IMHO, I personally think everyone should carry a cell phone with them and whether you are alone or not would be dictated by how isolated your route is.

As I was climbing the hill, I honestly pondered "if I have a heart attack, could I actually get my hands on my cell phone?":(

[Andrea]

ok, I really wasn't going to ask this because I know, I should be asking my dr instead, BUT she really hasn't got a clue about cycling or other strenuous exercise, nor does the heart specialist I've gone to see, so bear with me please...

any of you medical types have an opinion on whether I should be avoiding stressing my heart eg. up to max HR, when I have no sign of heart disease at all, but my family all do? My dad has had a 5-double bypass, my mom has had a small heart attack, my brother died at 41 of a heart attack. All of them with very few symptoms in advance, if any.

I don't really worry about it much, but I wonder a bit if I should be more careful than most about riding alone without a cell phone, for example. All opinions welcome, qualified or un- ;)

You are right to assume that your docs don't know too much about exercise, because they barely teach exercise physiology in medical school! As for yourself, since you have a family history of heart disease, it's very important that you have regular heart checkups for any abnormalities. If you perform a stress test at the doctor's office, request that he let you exercise until you get very close to your max heart rate (most docs will stop the test at approx. 85% of max). By doing this, you can be assured that everything is working smoothly across your entire heart rate range.
As long as your checkups are clear, then you should have no issues with strenuous exercise. If you start showing early signs of heart disease (plaque buildup/blocking of the coronary arteries), then you'll have to modify your exercise intensity to avoid depriving any areas of the working heart of oxygen. As long as there are no blocked arteries, though, you should have no problem with pushing yourself to the extremes of your abilities.

[lph]

Thanks, Andrea, I really appreciate it :) I'll be taking stress tests once a year, and next one is coming up soon, and I'll know now to ask him to keep me puffing for a while...

[indysteel]

[QUOTE=Mr. Silver;240197]
Indysteel: Yes, it was Boltinghouse Road. An article last week in the local paper featured one guy who did it 14 times in one hour last week. Eek:eek:

I saw that article and immediately broke out into a cold sweat. They looked like they picked the hottest day of the year for the "challenge." Insanity!

When I first started riding last year, I was alarmed at my heartrate and perceived exertion during the Hilly Hundred. I decided to start from stratch over the winter and worked on building a better aerobic base. During spin classes, I kept my heartrate in Zone 2 for a couple of months and then gradually increased my intensity from there. I haven't been all that scientific in trying to figure out whether it worked. I can climb better this year, but I've still had a few bad moments. Luckily, most of the hills are short enough that it's okay, but I've still gotten off the bike a time or two to catch my breath.

[Scarlet]

sometimes when I read the "technology" threads with heart rates and "what should be my max" i just get a bit naffed off. Surely when you cant get enough breath in your lungs and your heart is bursting out of your chest!!!! this should tell you your heart needs a rest!!!!! And if you want to puke .......well why on earth would you make your body work so hard that all it can do is throw up??? :(
I do understand about getting fitter but one can measure this without a heart rate monitor... really :cool:
As you get fitter you go the same route faster and without feeling fatigued
also hills become easier to do :D
For me i dont want to feel ill after a good ride , I like to feel a sense of acheivement and that my body is still ok for example...
51 miles on Sunday in 4 hours ... oh yeh no puking and a good few hills Scarlet x ;)

[ChickWithBrains]

I'm gonna go out on a limb.

I'm in the "your heart rate monitor was EXACTLY RIGHT" camp.

What does a quick spike on a HR chart mean? It means that, for the interval your HRM is set to (1 sec? 2 or 3? 5?), your heart beat really fast. Maybe you somehow got 4 into that one second for whatever reason. It only lasted a second, but your HRM picked up on it and you have a huge spike saying you were at 240 BEATS PER MINUTE!! But you weren't. You were at 4 beats per second, for one second. Before and after, you were likely lower. Who knows? Maybe you even had a PVC (a premature beat we all get from time to time for a huge variety of reasons) during that little window your HRM was listening.

The important thing is that it was not sustained, you had no repercussions from it, and you're listening to your body and your doc. Keep it up and don't worry about the little blips on your graph that don't seem quite right. No one has a smooth graph.

[Mr. Bloom]

well why on earth would you make your body work so hard that all it can do is throw up??? :(


You're right....BUT....

Some of us come from an era where it was expected that one would push BEYOND their limits to excel. Just because there's bad info out there doesn't mean that attitudes change quickly with new revelations...confusion comes first:)

[lph]

And if you want to puke .......well why on earth would you make your body work so hard that all it can do is throw up??? :(


and, well...sometimes there's somebody ahead that you really *need* to catch up with....

Not that I'm competitive or anything. :D

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Personally, I'm with Scarlet on this whole thing.

[SouthernBelle]

crap, I just lost my post.

Mr. S, I remember you saying you were a masher. I have that tendency too. I'm working on using the whole pedal stroke, the entire circle. In particular, as my foot comes around the back of the circle, I push forward before I get to the mash down part. When I get this right, I think it reduces the effort required in climbs, and thus reduces puking. ;)

I also think it will reduce the effort required in an entire ride. Hopefully somebody more experienced than me will tell me if I am on the right track.

You should have heard inside my head this morning. "Circle, Circle,..." I think that's why I missed a turn.

[Mr. Bloom]

I also think it will reduce the effort required in an entire ride. Hopefully somebody more experienced than me will tell me if I am on the right track.


I think I'm getting better, but I still struggle with IT Band pain at higher cadence. I am averaging a cadence in the mid-70's and still seem to have my most efficient speed for effort at that point...it still confuses me though since it's contrary to conventional wisdom.

[SouthernBelle]

My cadence is all over the place. Esp. since it's all rolly here. But in a charity ride last week I noticed a girl spinning by me on a hill I was dying on. It was about 18%. She probably had at least 20 pounds on me. That's what got me thinking about form over power.