Ladies, women, girls....

[kelownagirl]

This topic came up the other day as we were watching the IM Canada. DH kept referring to the women racers as "ladies" as in "that lady is running strong" or "I like that lady's bike" etc. I told him I much preferred the word "woman" instead of "lady", particularly since we were talking about female athletes, most of whom were in their 20-40's. In my mind, the word lady conjures up high heels, nylons and a dress to me. Somehow it sounds a little condescending in this context.

I know he does not mean it disrespectfully, in fact, I'm quite certain that in his mind, he's trying to sound very respectful, but for some reason, it bugs me.

Is it just me? What you prefer to be called in that situation? I told him I was going to ask you "women" and see what kind of feedback I got.

Thanks,

The very unladylike, kelownagirl

[teawoman]

Yup. Woman. People (esp. men) seem a lot more scared of that word than the word man.

Should add that I don't think ppl who use the term mean to be disrespectful...just that they seem to be tiptoeing around something.

[Wahine]

Well, I don't consider myself lady-like at all but it doesn't bother me to be called a lady.

Having said that, I would typically refer to a female athlete as a woman, not a lady. Somehow lady just seems a little weird to me.

[Zen]

It's situational.
In this case the use of "lady' seems odd.
I prefer to be a woman.

[lph]

Language is important, it conveys preconceptions and cements them as well, so it does matter what you call people. I make a point out of using "woman" as much as possible, even though i Norwegian almost everyone uses "lady" to describe a woman in general. In general, I am a woman, not a girl or a lady, which imply certain characteristics.

Being a girl either means you're young(er) or implies familiarity. Somebody who doesn't know me has no business calling me a girl. Being a lady is the female equivalent of a gentleman, and implies sophistication, elegance, fine clothes and good manners. In a athletic setting that's just absurd.

In case you couldn't tell, this is one of my pet peeves :D

[RoadRaven]

It peeves me when I hear "ladies" and "men"
They are not a match

If you are not going to call something a "gentleman's race", then don't call us "ladies".

It should be women and men, its simple, its honest and carries no preconceptions or possible offence...

[RoadRaven]

Oh... and I managed to avoid "girls"

I must admit I refer to my colleagues as girls, and I don't mind it on commentary as long as the men are also being referred to as boys or lads...

[cyclingmom01]

This topic honestly has never crossed my mind. I'm in Georgia & I would like to think hsopitality is still alive. Guys open doors for gals, etc. Heck my 9 y/o son even opens my car door for me. I was raised to show any elder respect by calling them sir or maam. When I entered the military and called a non-commisioned officer sir or maam, I got "dropped" & had to do push-ups. That was a hard habit for me to break. I guess my point is that it's a habit. Don't get hung up on it. I don't see it as derogatory in anyway.

[lyca]

If you are not going to call something a "gentleman's race", then don't call us "ladies".

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if part of the problem is that we don't have a female match for the word "guy". If I'm watching a male race (or any male sport) I feel comfortable saying "Hey, that guy is so fast!"

If I substitute "man" for "guy", it feels very formal. (though I'm sure I could get used to it)

Is there a more casual word for "woman"? The only think I can think of is "chick" and that has negative connotations. (Admittedly, though, I sometimes use it...:o )

Maybe we can make one up!

[Thorn]

Woman vote here for the reasons mentioned--lady has the same connotation as gentleman.

When people use lady, I'll turn around and use the word gentleman. Except to the southerner I worked with, that usually causes a few looks.

But more so, I'm known for eliminating gender, just as I eliminate race in initial descriptions. Drives people nuts, but, if you're referring to a persons work or actions, gender and race are not relevant.

But, related, do you cringe or accept the current usage of "guy" as a gender neutral address?

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

In the old days it was considered rather crude to call someone a "woman" unless it was meant in a bad way- implying that she was "no lady".
Many people of the past generation still automatically use "lady" rather than "woman" out of respect.

You know, the US is a big country full of people of all ages and regions and cultural backgrounds. Terms like lady, woman, Miss, Ma'am, etc are natural regional, generational, and cultural variations- perhaps we should not get too wrapped up in trying to get everyone to use the terms we prefer. I do agree that calling women "girls" is rather dated and at this point.
I lived in Puerto Rico for many years, where I learned to refer to a boy child using a certain term. I was talking to some Mexican women the other day in Spaish, and when I asked if one of them had just given birth to a girl or a boy, they looked at each other all shocked and then burst out laughing....what had I done??? Well apparently in Mexico one only uses that term to describe a male ANIMAL, never a person! So hard to be correct with everyone! Too funny.

[lph]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if part of the problem is that we don't have a female match for the word "guy". If I'm watching a male race (or any male sport) I feel comfortable saying "Hey, that guy is so fast!"

If I substitute "man" for "guy", it feels very formal. (though I'm sure I could get used to it)

Is there a more casual word for "woman"? The only think I can think of is "chick" and that has negative connotations. (Admittedly, though, I sometimes use it...:o )

Maybe we can make one up!

I agree. In fact I pointed out a few years back that from now on I was calling ALL my climbing friends "dudes" or "guys", male or female :p so it's kind of an in-joke. I like the friendly sound. Female friends sometimes say "hey, babe", but my male friends don't dare ;)

Actually I remember somebody here on this board commenting on the "cool chickie" on the logo at the top of the page, I thought that sounded neat.

[Pax]

I prefer "woman", although if the individual calling me a "lady" is either elderly or Southern (being aware of age or culture) I try to accept it gracefully.

Thorn - I don't accept "guys" as gender neutral...it makes me nuts when a waiter asks "what can I get you guys" to a table of women. Until it's neutral for them to go up to a table of males and ask "what can I get you gals"...I'll just stick with the gender neutral "folks".

[Bad JuJu]

For years, I was practically militant about this. I insisted on being called a woman by everyone in every situation and anyone who didn't comply got a lecture. Well, now that I'm in my enlightened mid-50s, I've relaxed a bit and realize that, as Zen said, it's situational. Older people and many southern men use "lady" as a term of respect, and that I can live with.

What still bugs me, though, is being called "girl." Many people just assume that I prefer to be thought of as younger than I am--which I don't. Guess you could say I'm on a personal mission to fight the perception that younger is better and we should all want to look and seem younger than we are. I can't stand that.

But I've noticed that my younger students have embraced "girl"--I'm talking about college freshmen. They have no problem being called girls, and no problem calling other women "girls," even those older than themselves. Sometimes we talk about this in class, but it seems like a losing battle. I just have to remind myself that language comes and goes, like fashion, and the pendulum will eventually swing back the other way.

I also think that many people, men and women both, avoid the term "woman" for whatever reason. They don't mind calling a man a man, but balk at calling a grown-up female a woman. That drives me crazy. I think this is where we get the widespread use of "lady," the continuing, maddening use of "girl," and even in some situations, "female." I noticed that last when I was in the navy--men were "men" but women were "females." I tried to put a stop to that, too, in my little sphere of influence. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

[lyca]

But I've noticed that my younger students have embraced "girl"--I'm talking about college freshmen. They have no problem being called girls, and no problem calling other women "girls," even those older than themselves.

I've noticed this, too. I work with a university Women's Glee Club as part of my assistantship and have found that they almost ALWAYS refer to each other as "girls". I think for them, and for many younger and college age women, it is a term of endearment...a bonding thing. They also embrace "women", but don't use that term as often when addressing each other.

In rehearsal situations, I almost always address the women in my groups (regardless of age...from grade school to my adult choir) and "ladies" and the men as "gentlemen". Of course, someone in the tenor section will usually raise his hand and ask if I want them to sing, too, since I only asked for the "gentlemen". :p

[Kimmyt]

:(

Oh dear, I guess I've probably been offending everyone right and left. I call people dude (male AND female), chick, chickie, chickadee (from my mom), girl, girlie, lady, without thought. I never call them that in a derogatory way (why? is it derogatory? I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said).

I mean, heck, if I'm going to try to insult someone by using a name, I'm gonna use one a lot more powerful than lady....

Now, it does bug me when men refer to women as girls sometimes (and I clarify this with sometimes, because I don't mind if The Boy asks me if I'm hanging out with 'the girls'... woops there I go, referring to a Man as a Boy). When a man uses the word girl dismissively it's got a completely different feel to it.

I apologize to everyone in this forum I've said 'you go girl' to! :o

[lyca]

I guess I just placed more emphasis on how a thing was said than what was said.

I do think it has a lot to do with context and culture. Personally, I wouldn't call someone I didn't know very well by any diminutive (nickname, variation of 'girl', whatever) but in my own personal circle I call my friends by many names.

And yeah, I seem to recall shouting "you go girl!" to my TV screen during movies...sporting events...speeches...the evening news...:D I'm pretty sure that someone, somewhere, coined that phrase and it has become part of our modern verbal heritage, so to speak. Kind of like a cliche...something that everyone recognizes...I could be wrong, though.

[SouthernBelle]

I think it's situational. Most groups of women refer to themselves as 'girls' in social situations. We Southerners use lady rather interchangably.

Several years ago a group of us girls were on the gulf and took a morning fishing trip. The captain referred to us as girls and then quickly back-pedaled, not wishing to offend. I laughed and told him we were old enough to appreciate being called girls since we really weren't anymore.

[DebW]

I definitely prefer "women", and cringe if someone says "ladies". I grew up with a mother telling me to "be lady-like" and to "walk like a lady" and those things just never fit me. To me, a lady is a stereotype that I have no interest in emulating and couldn't if I tried. But as others have said, it's often situational or cultural, so I usually just let it roll off me.

I think that the use of women vs girls in many cases really implies an underlying attitude. When I was in college on the east coast in the 70s, female students were universally referred to by administration/faculty/peers as women and treated as adults. Where my sister went to college in the midwest, they were referred to as girls and treated more like children in need of supervision/protection.

[LBTC]

Well, I guess I'm with Kimmy and am very good at using the wrong words inadvertently. In the situation KG described, I would probably have used the word girl more than anything. I can picture myself shouting encouragement in the form of go, girl, go. But when talking about them, I would more likely be saying "look at her go" "she looks strong" "she's reeling him in" "isn't she in the lead?" etc. Yes, it seems I use more pronouns than nouns. Perhaps I am instinctively avoiding the whole dilemma of woman vs lady, neither of which I like the sounds of. Oh, yes, I have definitely been known to use the words, chick, dudette, chica and babe to describe women, specifically athletes that I see or know, but generally I keep these terms close - talking with DH, or close girlfriends.

Hugs and butterflies,
~T~

[PscyclePath]

From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

Foreign languages have their own nuances, too... I remember that in German, the proper reference is Frau (plural Frauen) or Fraulein, occasionally Dame or Damen (plural). (hint, the feminine restroom is labelled Damen, good for a joke or two with the new guys who can't tell the difference betwen "da Men" and "Herren" (which is how the little boys' room is labeled, btw.) but that's a whole 'nother story.) Using the term for female, weib, or weibliche, is considered derogatory in polite circles, and is usually refereing to livestock.

But then again in gender non-specific circles, I confess that I'm one of those who typically refers to everyone as "guys," regardless of age or gender.

Tom

[Starfish]

It peeves me when I hear "ladies" and "men"
They are not a match. If you are not going to call something a "gentleman's race", then don't call us "ladies".

It should be women and men, its simple, its honest and carries no preconceptions or possible offence...

Yep.


From the old-school Southern male perspective, I was taught, and still believe that all adult females are to be considered "ladies" until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise. And even then, you give them the benefit of doubt.

Great, as long as men are always considered and called gentlemen until their behavior clearly demonstrates otherwise, and even then they are given the benefit of the doubt, and the STANDARDS for judging who is a gentlemen and who is a lady are EXACTLY THE SAME. In my experience, this isn't what happens out there.

And then, I also agree with everyone who writes about all the context stuff that happens when women are together in more intimate groups...friends, obviously relaxed social situations, etc. I guess I go both ways. Do I care if a woman I'm cycling with screams You Go Girl at me? No! :) Do I care if some idiot man decides I am not worthy to be called a Lady if I do something that doesn't live up to his standard of what feminine social behavior should look like? Well, I might not care about his opinion, if that's the kind of man he is, but I do care that women still have to buck double standards.

Edited to add: As Zen said on a different thread, this is one of those discussions I would enjoy more without male participation. I care about hearing what the women of TE would like to be called. I'm tired of hearing about what men think women ought to be called.

[mimitabby]

I grew up in the 60's where suddenly women were not to be referred to as girls, and the word; ladies was rather stilted, so i would become rather unhappy if i was called the wrong thing.

fast forward; now I've gone to Italy where all the older women are calling each other "girls" (ragazze) and men actually call themselves boys (ragazzi) and i am thinking, why am i getting so uptight about this?

so i'm not anymore. I don't like being called "one of the guys" either, but girl, lady, woman. it's all cool. I'm obviously no girl, but if my (at that time) 80 year old aunt can be a girl, so can I.

and i can go ballistic when at a nice restaurant the wait person says to me referring to my lovely meal "Are you still WORKING on this?"

[lph]

Oh my, I didn't mean to imply that I was offended by someone here saying "Go, girl!" :p

Among friends (you're all friends :D ) it's fine, but precisely because it does imply familiarity I don't appreciate it in a work setting with someone I'm NOT "familiar" with.

But I think actually "girl" is used more in Norway (in Norwegian of course...) than in the States. Sports journalists are known for calling female athletes "girls", "the girls team" when they would never call the male ones "boys".

And I completely agree with whoever said that it shouldn't have to be a compliment that one looks younger than one is. I mean, you should be gracious and accept a compliment as it's meant anyway, but I'd prefer to just be able to be a girl, a young woman, a woman and then an old woman without any negative associations connected to the terms.

PS. So to the old-school gentlemen who instead of asking my age say "well, one should never ask a lady her age..." I just go "It's ok, I'm no lady, and I'm 38."

[Zen]

;)
I thought we crashed the board, Starfish

[teigyr]

I despise being called "lady" because it's my feeling that it is a class distinction and a role as opposed to merely being my gender. I tend to dislike classification anyway unless someone has to refer to someone as one gender or another. There's no good way to do it and I've been guilty of the "guys" also.

As far as "go girl" or chick or anything, it's all in intent. If one of you said that, I would have no problem. If it was meant in a bad way (ie said probably from a male and I got the impression that it meant I was less of a person), I'd be irked.

So if someone such as a waiter approaches a table with women or men or mixed genders, how would one address the group?

I've been known to say things like "you two" if it's a group of two people. That sounds bad also though.

I'm strange though, I rarely refer to DH as my husband. He has a name, I prefer to use that because he's his own person and I don't like putting him into a category of husband. I have to do it a lot though or I'd say his name and people would say "who's that" so I'm working around that one.

What gets me are people who ask questions that don't directly ask the question. I do aircraft weight and balance. I have agents call me to ask if the plane has "weight and balance". What they mean is "are there any restrictions?" or "how many standbys can I clear?". I really try to contain myself from going off on them and saying EVERY flight has weight and EVERY flight has balance. Get to the point and ask what it is you need to know. Grrrr. I'm cranky that way.

[velogirl]

I (obviously) take no offense at being called a "girl." LOL

When I started Velo Girls (http://www.velogirls.com), I had no idea that the term "girl" was considered derogatory by many women a generation or two older than I am, until I read a blog entry written by one of our members about her first exposure to the club. I simply found an available URL and VeloGirls.com has a much better ring than VeloMiddleAgedWomen.com!

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

[smilingcat]

It is bit strange to think of female athlete as ladies. To me, it conjurs up an image of victorian dressed women with their white gloves and hat playing badmitton (sp) or other "lawn sport" of sort. Hardly the tank top, short-short with cleated shoes of any kind.

referring to one another as girls is okay with me AS LONG AS it is amongst women of my age or there abouts. If I refer to a younger adult women as a girl, I think that's condesending. and if I say that to women who are much older than me, I don't think I'm showing my proper respect to them. It's just me.

And I do know that to younger women, calling one another as "guys" seem perfectly normal. They don't even think about it. Then again language has a life and it changes with time. I can't imagine what life would be like if we all spoke Elizabethan English or English language from Sir William Spencer's or from Chaucer's period. Try reading "The Shepard's Calendar", "Fairy Queen" or" Canterbury Tale" or even "Midsummer Nights Dream" as it was written and you would go :confused: :confused:

When did we stop saying "I shall..." and became "I will ..." My English teacher beat that into me years and years ago "never say I will. Proper usage is 'I shall...' ".

And when did two or more people become two or more persons as if we don't know the term people?

Likewise when did actress become actors?

Then again I'm not a staunch language conservative like William Safire who is offemded more times than not.

yes ladies and men just sound all wrong.

smilingcat

[teigyr]

Seriously, to me, the term velogirls implies a sisterhood/community of healthy, strong, independent bicycle-riding women. Rather than a slight, we're laughing in the face of those who would oppress us (namely, male-oriented cycling clubs). And the "boys" know that if they want to participate in our activities/rides, they have to play by our rules.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, more than anything, I hate being addressed as ma'am! My grandmother was a ma'am. My mother was a ma'am. I'm not old enough yet to be a ma'am, except when being addressed by a charming southern gentleman.

Exactly. I became a ma'am I guess...don't remember the first time but :eek:

Anyway, it is like racial groups calling themselves things that nobody else would be allowed to call them? If that makes sense, it's putting it out there and WE can say things but we'd bristle if other people called us that. And nothing wrong with girls/boys. I often joke about (as I am clumsily trying to swim) talking about swimming in the lane with the big boys and big girls. It's just silliness. Then again, I'm not calling them boys and girls specifically...ok, my brain is now exploding.

And I do think the boys are starting to learn that we're pretty darned strong when we want to be :D

[Tuckervill]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if part of the problem is that we don't have a female match for the word "guy". If I'm watching a male race (or any male sport) I feel comfortable saying "Hey, that guy is so fast!"

If I substitute "man" for "guy", it feels very formal. (though I'm sure I could get used to it)

Is there a more casual word for "woman"? The only think I can think of is "chick" and that has negative connotations. (Admittedly, though, I sometimes use it...:o )

Maybe we can make one up!

I think gal is the counterpart to guy.

Yes, I try to use woman instead of lady. I use the word guy a lot, but I hardly ever say gal.

Karen

[Starfish]

I think gal is the counterpart to guy.

What was that musical? Guys 'N Dolls? Maybe we should start calling each other Doll!! :D

JUST KIDDING!!! :p

[Tuckervill]

I also think that many people, men and women both, avoid the term "woman" for whatever reason. They don't mind calling a man a man, but balk at calling a grown-up female a woman. That drives me crazy. I think this is where we get the widespread use of "lady," the continuing, maddening use of "girl," and even in some situations, "female." I noticed that last when I was in the navy--men were "men" but women were "females." I tried to put a stop to that, too, in my little sphere of influence. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad:

Woman is a loaded word, too, given the context and the tone of voice. My ex-husband used it as a warning when he was mad at me. (Guess why he's my ex?) So you know, it does have a connotation. I don't know if that's a Southern thing or not.

As I said, I try to use it. I don't mind if another woman calls me a "girl" but if a man says it, no matter his age, and especially if he's not much older than me, it really ticks me off.

Karen

[Tuckervill]

Exactly. I became a ma'am I guess...don't remember the first time but

I've had long conversations with certain Californians of my acquaintance who insist that ma'am is a term of insult no matter who uses it and when.

In the South, we use it (and sir) freely regardless of who is on which end of the social transaction. It's still somewhat archaic--a quaint little throwback to another era of extreme politeness.

My CA friends insist that "miss" is an appropriate substitute! As in, "Excuse me, Miss? You dropped your handkerchief." But why is miss any less ageist or sexist than ma'am? I don't get it. I just keep using ma'am and usually it is preceded by a brisk "thank you.."

Karen

[mimitabby]

.

What gets me are people who ask questions that don't directly ask the question. I do aircraft weight and balance. I have agents call me to ask if the plane has "weight and balance". What they mean is "are there any restrictions?" or "how many standbys can I clear?". I really try to contain myself from going off on them and saying EVERY flight has weight and EVERY flight has balance. Get to the point and ask what it is you need to know. Grrrr. I'm cranky that way.

yeah, we have this airplane, and it has no weight at all! we can sell it for big bucks!! but... is it balanced???? :D :D :D

[AllezGirl]

Seriously...this happened a few times when I wore my hair very short (I'm also very tall).

Since then, I've lowered my standards :rolleyes: ...call me whatever you like as long as it has a female connotation.

Including "b1tch"...I wear that label with pride. :D

[kelownagirl]

Wow, I knew you guys would have a ton of opinions on this!

OK, I called you all "guys", then almost changed it to "ladies" and then realized the irony of it all so I left it as is... :rolleyes: :D

I must admit that I refer to my friends as "the girls" quite often and they're in the 40-60 age range. I sometimes use the word "chick" but usually only when I'm PO'd at a woman as in "That chick just cut me off!" I call people of both sexes "guys" but that falls back to my youth. I do refer to a woman as a "lady" depending on her age and/or activity and I think there are plenty of occasions where the term is perfectly appropriate.

I guess my main point was that it sounded weird to me to refer to a female athlete as a lady and it sounds like most of you agree so I will tell DH and make my point. :)

My own pet peeves - I didn't like being called "ma'am" too much at first but I'm getting used to it, the older I get, and we don't hear it much around here anyway.

But I really hate being called "dear" by a woman younger than me. Where I live, we sometimes call an elderly lady "dear" and elderly people often call us "dear" but if a younger woman calls me "dear" I guess I figure it implies she thinks I'm old!

Thanks for your replies!

[Pika]

KG- hopefully you didn't hear me yelling at IMC
"You loook great ladies!!" as a group of women ran past...
I agree that I would never want to be called " dears" but how was I to cheer? Chicks? Women? hmmm- I have to say I did think they all look great- I tried to call them by name ( on some of their bibs) but as a group would go past I often called them ladies- I guess I feel they did looked great- not looking like guys.. a step up :) -not that being sweaty and trying hard, pushing it, is only something guys can do... they just looked great- I called them ladies outta respect I guess.
It never would have occurred to me to shout out- "women you look great"
I don't know why really.. typed out is seems natural enough- but I often shouted out ladies ( only as a group went past ...)
I have to say - there were some awesome bikes going past too- mostly I was worshiping them!!

[lyca]

I'm going to throw in my vote against "sweetheart" by men I don't know. :mad:

This happened to me just tonight. I was out on a short run and there was a pick-up truck pulling out of a driveway. There is a lot of construction happening on my street, so the truck had a bit of manuvering to do. The guy saw that I was coming and tried to move out of the way (which I appreciated), but I had to slow down a bit, anyway. He apparently felt badly about it and apologized to me....and then tacked on "sweetheart" to the end of it.

"Sorry, sweetheart!". Grrrr.

[kelownagirl]

Pika - actually come to think of it, I might shout the same thing.Maybe I have a double standard and figure it's something I can do but DH cannot? ;)

But I ask you, would you have talked about them and referred to them as a lady? IE "That lady is really running fast"?

PS - Wish I'd known you, and Grog, were there on Sunday. I would have tried to hook up at some point and said hello. :)

[Zen]

But I ask you, would you have talked about them and referred to them as a lady? IE "That lady is really running fast"?


Never.
That sounds like something a child would say, not another adult.

The only instance I can think of where I would use "lady" is if I were waiting tables.
"Can I interest you ladies in dessert?" why, yes you can!

There is a woman at the front desk of my doctors office who calls me "hon" as in honey. Very unprofessional. And extremely annoying.

[Pika]

Pika - actually come to think of it, I might shout the same thing.Maybe I have a double standard and figure it's something I can do but DH cannot? ;)

But I ask you, would you have talked about them and referred to them as a lady? IE "That lady is really running fast"?

PS - Wish I'd known you, and Grog, were there on Sunday. I would have tried to hook up at some point and said hello. :)

I agree- I would not have said- that lady has a nice bike, or that lady is running fast- I think most of the day I was saying " geez- did you see her? she was moving..or that girl with the leopard print looked like she need water- etc etc,
Would have been nice to meet you too- DH and I decided rather late to get there - we had dogsitters to find etc.
So glad we did though, it was a blast- I would do it again in a second.

[Zen]

What was that musical? Guys 'N Dolls? Maybe we should start calling each other Doll!! :D


Hello, Doll :D :D :D :D
Makes me think of a black and white movie about a down on his luck detective.
A gumshoe, if you will.

[kelownagirl]

I dated a guy when I was 19 who always called me "Doll". I liked it at the time. Not sure if I would now though...

[teigyr]

I guess I wonder if we want to be neutral? It's hard to say because it's all in intent for me. Sometimes I can swallow my pride and let things go if the person really means well. I don't see myself as a ma'am or a lady or a woman or a female at all, if truth be told. I like girly stuff, but I'm my own person. I also understand that other people, like us, mean well but don't know how to classify well.

So in the knowledge that our language is patriarchal in nature, what would you call a female athlete? Or someone competing against the big boys?

(I can say that, I swam in the big girl/boy lane at the gym AND I did 30 laps. Means I can say these things, right?)

[teigyr]

I've had long conversations with certain Californians of my acquaintance who insist that ma'am is a term of insult no matter who uses it and when.

I just keep using ma'am and usually it is preceded by a brisk "thank you.."

Karen

Oddly enough, I grew up in Calif and moved 5-6 years ago to WA. Maybe that could explain a lot? There is a lot of regional dialect/colloquialisms/oddities. I think ma'am means old though I have to admit that there's a guy at work from the south who says it and it sounds kind of, er, cute. He's military and (as I said from the south) so I think it's a compliment :o

[velogirl]

So in the knowledge that our language is patriarchal in nature, what would you call a female athlete? Or someone competing against the big boys?


Simply put, I would call her an athlete!

Women have a real challenge calling themselves athletes, especially women who are more recreational in their pursuits.

[East Hill]

It's odd how many people 'just don't get it'...most women don't want to be called 'chick', 'babe', 'hon', 'girl', etc., by anyone with whom they are not intimate.

It's one thing for my husband to call me 'babe', it's another for a man on the street to do so. The implication is that the man on the street feels it's acceptable to call me 'babe', because all I represent to him is 'female' and with luck, 'available'.

However:

Woman/Women, followed by a collective 'Ladies' (rather than 'girls', or 'chicks' or 'gals').

YMMV :D .

East Hill

[DirtDiva]

How would I know? Noone ever calls me a lady... :p

As for 18 year-olds calling themselves girls, that probably has a lot more to do with them not quite feeling like grown-ups yet than anything.

[Mr. Bloom]

I've not been able to read all posts as this thread took off, but I do have one question:


I see the phrase "Thanks Ladies" on this forum alot. Does anyone receive this offensively?

It is a sincere question from a man who typically refers to women as "women" not ladies...but the phrase "Thanks Ladies" seems to be a form of slang that doesn't seem offensive and seems appropriate in the right context.

[margo49]

Over the years I have had lots of young people working with me for a while on their travels. Most (Europeans, Brits, North Americans, Colonials) were quite happy to call me by my name. But the Japanese and Koreans used to bow! Very formally on entering and leaving and a feet-at-attention plus head-nod during the day after getting a task or a reply to a question. Nothing I said made any difference.
I had a Turkish (agricultural engineering) student who always called me "Ma'am".

Couldn't get enough of it!

I prefer to introduce myself first: "margo from Kinneret" (because my family name is foreign and I don't like to use the SO's). Then I proceed over-polite, tightly structured and to-the-point. Things degenerate naturally from there.

If I encounter a damsel in distress I usually use Dear or Sweetie .
For a child I call them "Chick" (as in baby bird).
Men in distress I never aproach unless they are bleeding or unconscious or (preferably) both and I'm the only person around.

[East Hill]

I've not been able to read all posts as this thread took off, but I do have one question:


I see the phrase "Thanks Ladies" on this forum alot. Does anyone receive this offensively?

It is a sincere question from a man who typically refers to women as "women" not ladies...but the phrase "Thanks Ladies" seems to be a form of slang that doesn't seem offensive and seems appropriate in the right context.

The collective noun of "Ladies" is much less offensive than 'Girls', 'Babes', 'Chicks', etc.

It's also more polite than 'Thanks, Gals', which would be the 'Thanks, Guys' equivalent (because the equivalent of 'Thanks Ladies = Thanks Gentlemen).

East Hill

[Zen]

The collective noun of "Ladies" is much less offensive than 'Girls', 'Babes', 'Chicks', etc.

The collective noun of 'ladies' seems more suited to those women with whom you are acquainted. perhaps a smaller group as well.
Not at all offensive when used in a formal sense.

[lph]

Actually, reconsidering I see there's nothing at all wrong with the terms "ladies" or "girls" or whatever, it's just that sometimes people use them in strange settings. Let's see if I can doodle this out.

Women are often referred to as, well, women, rather than just *people*. Example: yesterdays paper had a headline that went "women start up internet business" (or something of the sort). The article was not about women in general tending to start up net businesses, but about two specific women who had quit their jobs and done so. The headline would never have read "Men start up net business". Men are default, women are pointed out as different.

Especially in a professional setting, making a point out of somebody being a woman is just unnecessary. And can easily make her feel like an outsider. Calling a woman a lady or a girl or whatever might be appropriate, depending on the setting, but a lot of the time it's just unnecessary. It both points out that hey, everybody, this is a woman! and gives her certain characteristics. If that's what you *mean* to say, by all means do so.

On this forum we're obviously all women (give or take :) so thanking the "girls" or "ladies" isn't strange. And "thanks, women" just sounds strange. On an all-men forum I might say "thanks, gentlemen!". Though I probably would stick to "thanks, everybody".

[Kimmyt]

there are hot-button words for every race and gender and character of person out there, it just gets so hard to keep track and sometimes when you don't mean a word badly it may have that effect.

K.

[margo49]

I'm from the 70's!
I love it when I find or am told *another* word, phrase, concept, context,etc to be "over-sensitive" about.

Glory days of late nights in non-smoky rooms arguing about this kind of thing. Like the Men on TE thread.

[Trek420]

What was that musical? Guys 'N Dolls? Maybe we should start calling each other Doll!! :D

JUST KIDDING!!! :p

or South Pacific? "What ain't we got? we ain't got Dames" ;)

As for me, I prefer the term "pushy broad" for myself :rolleyes: ;) :rolleyes:

It's all context, the situation, your perception, and speakers intent and history. Language is fascinating that way. Seriously the child-like terms like "girl" while mostly well meant can have other meaning.

For example this being an international board some might not know that in the States it was quite common and may still be in some areas for men of color especially black men would never be addressed as "men" but always called "boy" or "boys".

I'm honestly unsure if it was the same term and intent for "girl"

I watched an athlete being interviewed about his team and their being especially supportive, the interviewer said something like "They're your boys" :D I'm sure she meant well as in "they backed you up well, you work together as a team" but you could see it still today as the athlete looked momentarily seriously offended then recovered on screen "ok. let's let it go and laugh. Let's move on, I'm sure she'll get heck from the producers". :o

But speaking personally I don't much mind; girl, lady, dame, grrl whatever you call me.. though I may bristle at the "honey, sweetie, dear..." unless you actualy are my "honey, sweetie or dear" or you are a truck stop waitress in which case there better be coffee and pie involved. :rolleyes: ;) :D

[lyca]

or you are a truck stop waitress in which case there better be coffee and pie involved. :rolleyes: ;) :D

Mmmmmm....pie...........

[Starfish]

It's all context, the situation, your perception, and speakers intent and history. Language is fascinating that way.

Well, this is so true. As well as many of the other recent comments on this thread about the difference between a SO calling me something, vs a man on the street calling me the same thing. Or TE women calling me girl, chick, or whatever, and a condescending sales lady, etc. AAAhhh...I see I automatically say sales lady, when I think she will condescend to me...vs when I'm referring to a saleswoman, which I intend more respectfully. I did that automatically, without thinking, just as I was writing this post!

As I think about it, even the smallest amount of positive relationship with someone can change my whole way of receiving something. For instance, don't care for it when a man comes up and says "Hi Ladies!" Although, am I actually offended? No...depending on how he says it and his intent. I just don't love it.

On the other hand, if a woman comes up and says the same thing, I don't love it, but I really could not care less. Oddly enough, I realize if Mr. Silver says it, I still don't love it, but I really don't care at all, because I've had positive experiences with communicating with him on the boards and in PMs (and Silver, to be clear, about the thing with his folks).

Another for instance: If I get the idea that a guy is saying Ladies because he is just not sure, and is trying to be a good guy, then great. If I get the idea that a guy is trying to actually mean something about what standards of behavior that is supposed to imply about me, then forget it. Once a guy decides I'm a lady, based on behavior, then the next I know, I'll be falling off the pedastal, and that can be a long fall. I don't belong up there. Or, maybe I do, but not because I never swear in public, or whatever he thinks makes me a lady. ;)

Oh, and on another note, and someone already mentioned this in general: WHY, O WHY, do some people say "Woman Doctor" or "Woman Lawyer"...This might be my all time most hated thing. You don't hear "Man Doctor" etc.

One final note: I remember a gazillion years ago in college, I was trying to persuade my old B-17 pilot dad that calling women "broads" was not respectful. I remember saying: Dad, how would you like it if some guy was calling me a broad!?! With a puzzled look on his face, he just said, "Well, if he was saying you're a good looking broad, why would I mind that?"

[DDH]

Man, I'm just in trouble all the way around. I read through this post and I use just about all these terms depending on the situation.

I think a lot of it depends on tone, and the situations you encounter.

I say "thanks hun" to the cashier when I check out.
I say "hey what ya guys doing later" when talking to my girl friends.
I say "yes Ma'am" in many situations.
I say "hey you girls ever?" when asking a question.

I guess my language is just all over the place. I say Ya'll too, for a lot of things and don't use gender at all.
Some english teacher would just cringe when talking to me I guess. LOL

[boy in a kilt]

I know this is a subject of potential consternation for women. Since it's so context-driven and tact is a new concept for me, I've come up with a few hard and fast rules.

When I'm discussing a woman with my wife, we have our own protocols.

Women from the south and certain black women are ma'am.

If I am speaking to a group of women, they are y'all.

If I'm speaking to a woman I don't know, or who doesn't meet any of the above criteria, I avoid the issue entirely. I find "thank you" works just as well as "Thank you ma'am."

[El Hombre]

As a male trying to organize a female only ride, I am so screwed.... PC I am not:D SOoooo, should it be "Ladies Ride"? "Women's Ride"? "Members of the opposite sex who want to kill Dan ride"?:D Maybe I'll start 10 minutes early with a box of Banana Keepers:eek:

[Pax]

As a male trying to organize a female only ride, I am so screwed.... PC I am not:D SOoooo, should it be "Ladies Ride"? "Women's Ride"? "Members of the opposite sex who want to kill Dan ride"?:D Maybe I'll start 10 minutes early with a box of Banana Keepers:eek:

"Womens Ride" would be fine. Unless you normally have "Gentleman's Ride"?

[Zen]

Maybe I'll start 10 minutes early with a box of Banana Keepers:eek:

Not quite sure what that's supposed to mean.
Why would women want to go on a women's only ride led by a man?

Apologies to the women of the board for the thread drift but this is an example of why men should think at least five times before posting.

[lph]

I'm assuming it was just a joke referring to the enthusiastic discussion around Banana Keepers earlier on this board, can't see anything offensive in that myself.

[salsabike]

Not quite sure what that's supposed to mean.
Why would women want to go on a women's only ride led by a man?

Apologies to the women of the board for the thread drift but this is an example of why men should think at least five times before posting.


I'm assuming it was just a joke referring to the enthusiastic discussion around Banana Keepers earlier on this board, can't see anything offensive in that myself.

Exactly. El Hombre is trying to organize a women's ride here in the PNW that would be like Cinderella or Little Red Riding Hood. I am really happy that he's interested in doing that and looking forward to helping him do it!

[Xrayted]

I remember being in middle school and high school (20+ yrs ago) during softball or basketball games, everytime one of us would get a great hit, or throw someone out or land a nice layup, we'd all yell "You woman, you!!!" Even our parents got into the act. It was a battle cry of female fierceness for us. Till this day, the only ones I can still say that to and not get the hairy eyeball are those particular women.
I usually joke when called a lady that "you don't know me well enough to know if I'm a lady or not." I grew up in FL where it was common to say sir, ma'am... out of repect. In the NE, if you call a woman under the age of 45 "ma'am", you get nasty looks.
I agree that in a sport setting or anywhere where the tone is professional, the word woman should be used. Lady has it's own spot for certain occasions. Girl is used only between very close friends. "You go girl" however is never allowed. :p

I do manage to slip sometimes, I have to admit. I errantly used the "young lady" on DGF just last night and got a look that could strip paint off the wall. :o :D

[Zen]

I'm assuming it was just a joke referring to the enthusiastic discussion around Banana Keepers earlier on this board, can't see anything offensive in that myself.

I don't think men belong in certain discussions here. I have put him on the "ignore" list but unfortunately still see the name in posts. Coming from a woman the comment might be amusing.
There are many women capable and willing to lead all women rides.

Don't even get me started on how degrading the "Little Red Riding Hood" and "Cinderella' names are for a ride. Each of those characters relied on a man to save her from an unfortunate situation. Blecch.
I doubt many men would ride in the Little Jack Horner.

[Pax]

I remember in high school (1974-1978) our team name was the Eagles, we went to State my senior year and the papers would only refer to us as the Ea-girls. :rolleyes:

[salsabike]

I read through this post and I use just about all these terms depending on the situation.

I think a lot of it depends on tone, and the situations you encounter.

I say "thanks hun" to the cashier when I check out.
I say "hey what ya guys doing later" when talking to my girl friends.
I say "yes Ma'am" in many situations.
I say "hey you girls ever?" when asking a question.

I say Ya'll too, for a lot of things and don't use gender at all.
LOL


Ditto. It's the intent behind the word that I notice, not so much the word itself.

[teawoman]

As a male trying to organize a female only ride, I am so screwed.... PC I am not:D SOoooo, should it be "Ladies Ride"? "Women's Ride"? "Members of the opposite sex who want to kill Dan ride"?:D Maybe I'll start 10 minutes early with a box of Banana Keepers:eek:

I believe it was some women on the board who dared him to offer these at the ride.

Go with #2 title! (and possibly #3 at this rate! :D )

The original thread.
http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=16592

If I hadn't seen the original context for this, I'd be a bit p-o'd too.

[LBTC]

... certain black women are ma'am.


I'm baffled by the need for the word black in this statement.

I admit I grew up and now live in areas where the diversity leans more towards those of European, First Nations and Asian decent, so perhaps it's my limited exposure and understanding of the racial tensions that African Americans face that makes this term seem not quite right. Can anyone help me out with understanding this?

Thanks,
~T~

[Deborajen]

Thanks for clarifying, Teawoman. Yeah, I was ticked at the post but the link to the previous discussion at least explained where it came from. Still, though, lesson to be learned here - if you make a joke and just assume everyone knows that background, it can really backfire!

Deb

[velogirl]

Don't even get me started on how degrading the "Little Red Riding Hood" and "Cinderella' names are for a ride. Each of those characters relied on a man to save her from an unfortunate situation. Blecch.
I doubt many men would ride in the Little Jack Horner.

Zen, no offense is intended to you, but apparently the thousands of women who ride in both of those events each year would disagree with you. I can't speak for LRRH because I haven't done it, but I've ridden Cinderella half a dozen times and it sells out every year on the day they open registration. 2,500 women. And it's a treat that a predominantly male cycling club has created an event for women -- an event where they cater to all the female riders who participate. I, for one, appreciate it. And take no offense at the name whatsoever. Actually, one of the treats each year is dressing up, decorating our helmets, and checking out all the fun costumes the other women have put together.


Lorri

[velogirl]

Now I'm really confused. I hate to admit that I thought a banana-keeper had some sexual connotation. Then I looked at the link from the original post -- a banana keeper is a storage container for a banana so it doesn't get squished. I don't get it. Why are folks offended by that?

[Starfish]

but apparently the thousands of women who ride in both of those events each year would disagree with you.

I haven't done either of these rides, but they sound fun to me.

That said, though, maybe it just makes me very unprincipled that I would be one of those women who might do the ride, to have the fun of riding with a bunch of women, but still hate the name.

I actually had a man throw at me in an argument once that I just wanted to be Cinderella (NOT, but then that's why there was an argument).

[Mr. Bloom]

I say "thanks hun" to the cashier when I check out.


Now, I will admit that when someone refers to me as "hun" it sounds like fingernails on the chalkboard:eek: :rolleyes:

It's not offensive, per se, but it just never seems to be an appropriate reference - whether to a male or a female...too 'comfortable' for a stranger to use.

In high school and college, I used to have an issue with young women pinching my butt :mad: :eek: Why did they pinch it? Probably because I had one...and most males that age don't...

But, it seems like the women who pinched my butt were the same kind who use the phrase "hun"...so maybe that's why it bugs me ... and I was raised in the south where "hun" is common colloquialism.

[Deborajen]

Now I'm really confused. I hate to admit that I thought a banana-keeper had some sexual connotation. Then I looked at the link from the original post -- a banana keeper is a storage container for a banana so it doesn't get squished. I don't get it. Why are folks offended by that?

I seem to remember Lance Armstrong made jokes about banana Keepers. That was what came to my mind, anyway. When it first came up on this thread, it looked like some guy making a not-so-nice sexual reference - on a women's forum. I had no idea about the earlier discussions about the ride he was working on organizing - doesn't look quite so bad now, if it stays in check.

Having read more about the names of the rides makes more sense, too. I agreed with Zencentury, they sounded degrading. Having read more about the rides, though, they don't sound so bad. Good to see rides are getting started.

Deb

[Starfish]

Now, I will admit that when someone refers to me as "hun" it sounds like fingernails on the chalkboard:eek: :rolleyes:

For some reason, this is the one the really, really bugs me, too. I don't understand why, but I'm with you. There is a checker at my grocery store who always calls me this. She is nice, I like her, etc. But, I just hate it that she has to call me "hun".

Sometimes I am tempted to tell her I'll say hello to Attila for her! :p

[KnottedYet]

At my job I call anyone of my parents' or grandparents' generation "Sir" or "Ma'am".

I refer to a group of women as "Ladies", as in "Would you ladies like to sit here?" A group of men are "Gentlemen." Regardless of ages. A mixed group I refer to as "Folks." "Can I help you folks find something?"

When I'm not at work, it's "guys" and "dudes" and "folks" for just about everyone. But still "Sir" and "Ma'am" for older-than-me. "Thank you, sir." "Excuse me, Ma'am, I think you dropped your wallet."

I don't much care what folks refer to me as. I'm more interested in the tone being used when they say it.

[El Hombre]

Link (http://http://forums.teamestrogen.com/showthread.php?t=16592)to the thread that I ref'd

I asked for ideas and was dared to hand out Banana Keepers by members of this board. If you knew me, you'd know I never shy from a dare. Should any women have any comments, suggestions, complaints, etc regarding the ride or myself, please feel free to PM me.
Volunteers gladly appreciated!

[Mr. Bloom]

I asked for ideas and was dared to hand out Banana Keepers by members of this board.

I hear ya', but I've accepted that we guys need to be more careful/sensitive on this board. For instance, Bluetree gave me a name I thought was hilarious:


Mr Silver, to me, is just another one of the TE gals, or rather, the oddball roadbike with a kickstand.:D :D

I accepted the moniker into my signature line...but I honestly didn't see the double entendre that someone else found as offensive coming from a man...so I changed it.:)

[amy]

I really had to think about this one for a while. I typically refer to women as girls, particularly if they are around my age (30) or younger. I can't see calling a 70-year-old woman a girl in conversation. But I often find myself talking about a "woman" and I call her a girl. To me, it feels closer, like she's part of my club or something. I can also be found saying chic... often referring to a girl I think is pretty cool. "Woman" feels so official or categorical to me. Not to mention we're fighting for a term that has "man" in the title.

Girls and guys is usually the way I go.

[boy in a kilt]

I hear ya', but I've accepted that we guys need to be more careful/sensitive on this board.


I'm trying to find that balance myself. I do get the occasional hostile PM saying I have no business being here and I should "stfu".

It's just a matter of figuring out where I should and shouldn't be posting and how to get my point across such that people realize my intent is pure.

[BikeMomma]

If you knew me, you'd know I never shy from a dare.Ladies, Women, et all --- I DO know him, and he's right. You dare him, he'll do it. I won't be surprised in the least if we see banana keepers in our Rapunzel goodie bags. :D

In keeping with the discussion, I'm pretty easy-going about what I'm called. Although I'm 37 and look way younger (so I'm told), young store clerks occasionally do call me M'am, and it sorta stirs some protest within me, but I brush it off to perhaps what they were taught or told to say by their parents, employers, etc. Generally, I give people the benefit of the doubt and try to be fair and laid-back with my reactions, unless they say it in mean spirit. BUT, get some good 'ol boy calling me "Sweetie", "Sweetheart", "Darlin'", "Doll", "Honey", or any other demeaning name, and it's hackles-up time and I'm spittin' fire. It happens rarely, thank goodness. :) I love the phrase "you go girl." It sortof empowers me and I hope to empower others with it also, although the people I usually say it to are good friends and acquaintances, not strangers. And I usually shout "Let's go/good job, Ladies" (or a specific person's name) at races, for lack of anything better to say, usually!

Mr. Silver -- oh believe me, he's definitely restraining himself. LOL And from years of knowing him, I have to agree with him that he definitely does not do PC well (you nailed it El Hombre! :p ) -- he's being an angel here on the TE boards and if I can speak for him, is totally committed in helping to put together an awesome women's-only ride for Seattle and Washington state, which is why he started posting here. The more times he can mention the new ride, the better, and obviously making enemies of TE members here is not good PR! :)

Zen -- I see and understand your point about the ride names. I've ridden the Cinderella three times now and I admit I've always sorta disliked the name in its negative connotation. But the ride is ALOT of fun, the costumes are downright hilarious, the food's great and plentiful, the volunteers (Prince's) are always helpful, and it's just an overall total blast. If one looks at it for what it is, it's just a ride name meant to be cute, unique, easily-recognizable, etc. The new Repunzel Classic ride is attempting to model the excellent example that the LRRH and Cinderella rides have set, and by choosing a similar fairy-tale name, is hoping to be thought of in the same way as it's predecessors.

Oh, and if I could choose, I'd be rescued by Lassie or the Lone Ranger (his horse ROCKS!....hiho Silver...Away!). Back in the days of knights and castles, I would have let the knight rescue me, but then I would have stole his horse and rode off into the sunset alone. :D :D

As for you, El Hombre......:

As a male trying to organize a female only ride, I am so screwed.... PC I am not:D SOoooo, should it be "Ladies Ride"? "Women's Ride"? "Members of the opposite sex who want to kill Dan ride"?:D Maybe I'll start 10 minutes early with a box of Banana Keepers:eek:Depending on how badly you piss off my friends here at TE, I might take the 3rd option. LOL :p :p

:D :p
BikeMomma

[boy in a kilt]

I'm baffled by the need for the word black in this statement.

I admit I grew up and now live in areas where the diversity leans more towards those of European, First Nations and Asian decent, so perhaps it's my limited exposure and understanding of the racial tensions that African Americans face that makes this term seem not quite right. Can anyone help me out with understanding this?

Thanks,
~T~

I moved from the south to a racially mixed neighborhood in michigan when I was young. A lot of my friends were black so a lot of my friends' moms were black. Not calling them "ma'am" was begging to be smacked upside the head.

There is still a picture in my head of black women that I had better call "ma'am" or I'll get smacked again.

It has nothing to do with racial tensions or lack thereof.

[Mr. Bloom]

(his horse ROCKS!....hiho Silver...Away!).

Did you just call my wife a horse????:eek:
:D

[BikeMomma]

Did you just call my wife a horse????:eek:
:D:D :D I wondered if I'd get a response from either of you!

As I love horses like crazy and think (the horse) Silver was beeeauutiful steed, you could consider it a compliment, I suppose! :p

Ha! Tooo funny....;)
~BikeMomma

[Zen]

Originally Posted by El Hombre
If you knew me, you'd know I never shy from a dare.

I got a dare for ya

[Trekhawk]

Zen, no offense is intended to you, but apparently the thousands of women who ride in both of those events each year would disagree with you. I can't speak for LRRH because I haven't done it, but I've ridden Cinderella half a dozen times and it sells out every year on the day they open registration. 2,500 women. And it's a treat that a predominantly male cycling club has created an event for women -- an event where they cater to all the female riders who participate. I, for one, appreciate it. And take no offense at the name whatsoever. Actually, one of the treats each year is dressing up, decorating our helmets, and checking out all the fun costumes the other women have put together.


Lorri
Well said Velogirl!!
I have done LRRH and I thought it was a great ride. As far as the name goes well I thought it was a fun name but then being an Aussie I never take things too seriously. I even have a lovely LRRH jersey and wear it with pride.

[Mr. Bloom]

:D :D I wondered if I'd get a response from either of you!

As I love horses like crazy and think (the horse) Silver was beeeauutiful steed, you could consider it a compliment, I suppose! :p

Ha! Tooo funny....;)
~BikeMomma

If Silver were a horse;), she'd be a strong, lean, muscular thoroughbred:D

That's was methinks.

[kiwi girl]

I like 'go girl' and don't have a problem with 'guys' for a group of mixed gender (although probably only if the group is about the same age or younger than the speaker). I also associate 'lady' with upper class and an uptight attitidue to manners and doing the 'proper' thing - so I prefer woman.

I must admit I found it a bit strange when my bosses secretary called me 'doll' in a work email last week.

[light_sabe_r]

I dunno, even since watching Little Britain, the phrase "I'm a lady" has taken on an entirely new meaning...

"Two ladies on a BI-CIC-KLE`! Pay no heed!"
http://lucas-walliams.project76.tv/Filming/Ladies-Tandem.jpg


I'm a bit of a country bogan. Everyone's called mate and my closest friends and BF get the term of endearment, "DAHL!" which is short for "darling"
I like being reffered to as woman though, It's somehow empowering I guess.

[Trekhawk]

I dunno, even since watching Little Britain, the phrase "I'm a lady" has taken on an entirely new meaning...

"Two ladies on a BI-CIC-KLE`! Pay no heed!"
http://lucas-walliams.project76.tv/Filming/Ladies-Tandem.jpg


I'm a bit of a country bogan. Everyone's called mate and my closest friends and BF get the term of endearment, "DAHL!" which is short for "darling"
I like being reffered to as woman though, It's somehow empowering I guess.

LOL - bogan - I haven't heard that one for awhile. Im not sure bogans ride bicycles mate they are too busy doing laps in their big V8s hee hee back home in WA we call them bog laps.:D light _sabre a bogan......I dont think so!:D

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Just yesterday I ran into a woman friend in the cafe in town. I'm 53 and she is about 45. At the very same moment we greeted each other simultaneously- me saying "Hey, Girl!" and she saying "Hey, Woman!". It was too funny.

I suspect she says "woman" because she is about 8 years younger than me and was growing up during the big women's lib era, while I was pretty much grown up already when that was going on.

[Zen]

I suspect she says "woman" because she is about 8 years younger than me and was growing up during the big women's lib era, while I was pretty much grown up already when that was going on.

Maybe it's just her preference.
I started saying "hey woman" when I had a roommate from Barbados who always said that. I liked the way it sounded, especially with her island accent.

[Deborajen]

Just yesterday I ran into a woman friend in the cafe in town. I'm 53 and she is about 45. At the very same moment we greeted each other simultaneously- me saying "Hey, Girl!" and she saying "Hey, Woman!". It was too funny.

Something similar happened at work the other day. A group of us was in the break room for lunch and another group came into the room (all of us are females). The incoming group said "Hey, guys" while the group already in the room said, "Hey, girls." We all laughed. Nobody was offended - it was just funny.

Deb

[Mr. Bloom]

I started saying "hey woman" when I had a roommate from Barbados who always said that. I liked the way it sounded, especially with her island accent.

Hmmm...I spent my early years in Barbados and remember our maid and my nanny referring to SilverMother as "mistress"... - yah' man

Lest you get the wrong idea, labor was cheap in Barbados in the '60's

[Pax]

Just yesterday I ran into a woman friend in the cafe in town. I'm 53 and she is about 45. At the very same moment we greeted each other simultaneously- me saying "Hey, Girl!" and she saying "Hey, Woman!". It was too funny.

I suspect she says "woman" because she is about 8 years younger than me and was growing up during the big women's lib era, while I was pretty much grown up already when that was going on.

I'm 47 and say "Hey Woman" to all my friends upon greeting. It's definitely (in my area anyway) an age thing. The young ones say "Hey Girl" the older ones say "Hey Ladies (or Gals)".

[Zen]

Hmmm...I spent my early years in Barbados and remember our maid and my nanny referring to SilverMother as "mistress"... - yah' man


She was only allowed to call me that when we were wearing our special outfits;)

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Queen- I guess that makes me one of th eYoung Ones then! :p

Zen- too funny!

There was a nurses aid in my mother's nursing home a couple years ago- he was from the caribbean islands somewhere too- he used to call my mother "Mistress" as well. We kept trying to convince him to call her simply by "Mrs.___" but he kept on the same. :rolleyes:

[Starfish]

Just in the last few days, I have had a little spate of being called Honey and Hon...both in person and on the phone, by women who were definitely in my age range. ETA: Both in work settings, sometimes theirs, sometimes mine (no one in my office...but folks on the phone).

Maybe because my Mom used to call us Honey in a motherly way (which was great from my MOM), when we were kids, I tend to feel condescended to when I'm called Honey.

I'm kind of just dumbfounded when this happens...like, did I just hear that? It always prompts in my mind the question, How Old Are You, Anyway?

OK, just letting off steam. :o

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

Starfish-
I don't know if this is true for others, but I notice that the women who call people Hon or Honey in my town are the ones who seem less highly educated- I only experience the "hon syndrome" from women cashiers in the supermarket, from diner waitresses, receptionists, and from people working in WalMart or the Dairy Queen, etc.
Maybe it's a socio/educational kind of thing? Just my own observations, not trying to stereotype anyone....

[Tuckervill]

But, assuming that the cashier is less highly educated is stereotyping. ;)

I think people who use that term are just more social and people oriented. They're probably more gregarious and outgoing than the average person. The gregarious person probably is drawn to customer service jobs where they deal with people all day.

Karen

[BleeckerSt_Girl]

But, assuming that the cashier is less highly educated is stereotyping. ;)

I think people who use that term are just more social and people oriented. They're probably more gregarious and outgoing than the average person. The gregarious person probably is drawn to customer service jobs where they deal with people all day.

Karen

I do know what you mean. I used to waitress full time, and I also used to work in fast food restaurants full time. But i do think that it is a fact that "in general", people in minimum wage jobs have fewer higher educational degrees than people in higher paying jobs. That's not a stereotype- it's just generally true. There are many exceptions to this of course- and maybe more exceptions these days than there were ten years ago. Making that assumption about a particular person would be stereotyping I think.
I know lots of gregarious and outgoing people of various backgrounds, incomes, and educational levels, but they don't all call me "Hon". :rolleyes:

Reading this whole thread has shown me that it is really difficult for everyone, or even just for woman, to agree on what they "should" be called by others. There is so much variety! There is no term that offends nobody. Maybe the closest one is "women", but even there it can be tricky depending on circumstances and context.
"Ma'am" is generally considered respectful....but it makes me feel so OLD! :(

Once DH and I were out dining in a fancy restaurant with a couple in their 70's who are very near and dear to us. The man proceeded to continually call the waitress (in her late 30's) "Princess". I was secretly mortified and embarrassed, but did I really want to correct a man in his 70's who is about the sweetest gentlest soul on earth? I was greatly relieved when the waitress handled it smoothly and didn't bat an eye. She understood that he was just trying to make her feel "special" (gag, gag) and she made allowances for his age. I remember dealing with that (and way worse) when I was a waitress. Ugh. I usually adjusted my reactions based upon the perceived intent of whatever was said. If the intent was to make someone feel "less", then I would react. Sometimes we just have to pick our battles.

[Starfish]

I know lots of gregarious and outgoing people of various backgrounds, incomes, and educational levels, but they don't all call me "Hon". :rolleyes:

Yep!


I usually adjusted my reactions based upon the perceived intent of whatever was said. If the intent was to make someone feel "less", then I would react. Sometimes we just have to pick our battles.

Yeah, I know. I do get it. After all, my Dad was a B-17 Pilot in WWII...I mean, I understand gauging intent, generational issues, etc.

Also, I am sympathetic about the stereotyping issue, although I do understand there are generally true statistics about types of jobs/education, etc. I am in a business where normally I work in and out of my own office, etc, but I have to take "floor time" shifts to answer phones about twice/week. We don't have a receptionist, all of us in the office just share that work. I find it interesting to see how I am spoken to when people assume I am the receptionist (which, BTW, I have done a lot of in my earlier life) vs. when they realize I am not. I notice this difference both on the phone and with walk-ins, with both men & women.