Im Lou...

[Running Mommy]

Ok, call me bitter, but I just watched people cross the finish line at IM Lou (Louisville KY) who were declared an Ironman, given a medal and celebrated as if they had done the course in under 17 hours- as the rules state, when they really took WELL over 17 hours.
You see they had to modify the swim course at the last minute because of the flooding up north. Apparently the river current was about 2.5 mph. So they changed the mass start to a time trial start for safety sake. BUT then that meant that the race didn't end at midnight. It ended 17 hours after the last person hit the water, which ended up being 37 minutes later.
Sooo that gave the people who started say 15 minutes before the last swimmer in an extra 15 minutes. Or in one case 18 minutes..
This came to mind as being a possibility so I started taking note of bib #'s just to see, and sure enough we had people listed as 17:18. 17:04 etc..
So I wonder in the end if they will be DQ'ed??

I know this sounds petty and stupid, and it is. But seeing as how last year if I had an extra 10 minutes I would have made it in as well. sigh... Yeah, I can be that petty I guess... :o

Of course I know that I'd never be able to consider myself an "Ironman finisher at IMAZ 07" because I didn't make it in the alloted time.
Some people try to sugar coat it and say " As far as I'm concerned if you do the distance you are an Ironman". But I'm not one of them. It's part of the challenge- knowing that it's do or die-get in under 17 or try again.
In 2006 I did it, in 2007 I didn't, and I'm going to try again in 08.

I know in the end, it shouldn't matter to me. But I think it just irks me at the thought that there could be people out there flaunting their medals and declaring themselves Ironmen, when really, according to the rules.. they are not...
Maybe I'm bitter because they caught a break?? :rolleyes:
I heard that everyone made it out of the swim- with nearly a half hour to spare!! Now that NEVER happens! Heck my swim time there may have actually been reasonable!! :p
Shoot! I should have signed up! ;)
Sigh... Now Wahine- SHE is an IRONMAN!! An Iron STUD even!!

[crazycanuck]

Weeeellll madame RM...You'll be a finisher at IM Western Australia no matter what!!!

:D

C

[Wahine]

I agree with you RM, it's totally not fair. I had a very good friend of mine come up and do IMC on her 50th birthday, she was over time by 10 min. They let her come in over the line and gave her a medal. She gave it back. She didn't get an official finish either. She could've finished at Lou.

[silver]

No that doesn't seem right. I'm not sure if I really understand why they did that. I guess that if they cut off the clock at 17:00 hours, there could have been someone who started last...say 15 minutes in who actually finished in 17:00 (hours) but the finish clock would have been stopped and they still had 15 minutes more time to finish.

Anyway, you all who have completed the distance are still heros to me.

It was incredible to watch the racers finish up! Many had family members cross the line with them, some crying, some strong, some stumbling. wow!!!!

Incredible! the finish was in a neat place too! We talked to a lady who had done IM Florida and another one....Wisconsin maybe? and said that this one was very well done for a first time.

[Running Mommy]

I noticed that it looked like a cool area for the finish as well. They kept showing the neon signs of the hard rock cafe and bowling alley. It seemed a lot like Tempe (IMAZ).
The finish at IMAZ is very near Mill Ave which has a ton of little shops and restaurants.

Silver do you know how the hills are on that course? I had heard that they had some pretty good hills. I might consider this race at some point in the future, but hills always scare this flatlander.

I also heard that people were coming out of the swim covered in a brownish green sludge. :eek: It wasn't wetsuit legal apparently.

I'm glad they had a good first time race. I was at IMAZ the first year, and it went pretty good as well. But hard to pull off as they had last minute course changes as well. I do remember the local law enforcement calling Huddle (the race director) and telling him they needed him to stop the race because they were having traffic control issues! :eek: This was of course after all the pro's had already gotten out on the bike course.
Uhh yeah sure. I'll just tell them to STOP until you guys get your act together.... Right.....

[KSH]

Well, I knew about the TT start for the swim and for some odd reason I thought they would make everyone come in under 17 hours. So if you started at 7:00 AM your cut off was midnight. Sounds like they didn't track who got in the water first or late. So yea, that's kind of lame that those people who took longer than 17 hours are considered offical finishers. I'm sorry but I wouldn't take the medal. I would feel like I cheated to get it.

The swim was not wetsuit legal, the water was too warm. One of the selling points for me to do it in 2008!

The hills, I have heard they are not so bad. I live in Dallas, TX and it's pretty flat here too. If you read my thread where I say I signed up for IMKY 2008, you will see the review he gave of the hills. It's just all a matter of hill training.

[makbike]

Here is what I heard on the radio this afternoon regarding the start. According to the local guy who participated every participant had to wear a timing device which was actived when they entered the water and recorded their times along the way. I'm not and tri person so I don't know if this is norm but based on what he said in his interview the times were not adjusted. The started was handled the way it was due to river conditions and the point of entry they used was too narrow for all participants to spill into so for safety reasons they sent swimmers out one at at time. I would not doubt that the swimmers came in to shore covered in green slim, heck they were in the Ohio River. I do believe wet suits were premitted for they were asking for volunteers a couple of weeks ago to serve as wetsuit strippers.

To those to participated I tip my hat. For those who will join in the fun in the coming years I say go for it.

[Wahine]

The race would still be called wetsuit permitted or no on race day, depending on water temp. But they would have to have wetsuit strippers ready to go if they needed them.

I'm surprised they had to call for wetsuit strippers so late. That's a prime IM volunteer post. Think about it....;)

[Running Mommy]

Yep Mak- timing chips are the norm. We wear them on our ankles. There are timing mats throughout the course that record your time when you cross them. If you go on www.ironmanlive.com and click on the Louisville race banner, and then track an athlete, a box will pop up to enter the bib # enter bib 1539- or any random bib #. but then you will see what I mean. It has all the times posted.
I think once you finish the lag time is about 10-15 minutes before it hits the website. It's a very cool feature, and a great way to track your athlete from home. Besides the handy live web cam of course.

Hmmm... I may consider LOU in a couple of years, tho I'm not crazy about swimming in slime. But really the course isn't hilly? I had read recon reports from people training for it saying it was going to be hilly??
I think the humidity might do me in tho! Remember I'm a desert dweller. I thrive in 10% humidity. :D

[silver]

Here is what I heard on the radio this afternoon regarding the start. According to the local guy who participated every participant had to wear a timing device which was actived when they entered the water and recorded their times along the way. I'm not and tri person so I don't know if this is norm but based on what he said in his interview the times were not adjusted. The started was handled the way it was due to river conditions and the point of entry they used was too narrow for all participants to spill into so for safety reasons they sent swimmers out one at at time. I would not doubt that the swimmers came in to shore covered in green slim, heck they were in the Ohio River. I do believe wet suits were premitted for they were asking for volunteers a couple of weeks ago to serve as wetsuit strippers.

To those to participated I tip my hat. For those who will join in the fun in the coming years I say go for it.

It's normal for races to use that type of timing. They are timed with "chips" computer chips that you wear on my ankle. The chip is activated and your start time is recorded when you cross a mat just before you enter the water. That is your official start time. Then as you progress along the course you cross subsequent mats, recording your progress. This is how we are able to "follow" a participant along the course.

So for instance, say a person started at 7:05 and finished at 12:10 that would be recorded as taking 17:05 total time. Another person could have started at 7:15 and finished at the same time 12:10, but their total time would be 16:55.

I don't think that I'd feel right accepting the medal. I don't know how they could have "fixed" the problem, unless they checked each persons CHIP time as they crossed the finish line.

[silver]

Silver do you know how the hills are on that course? I had heard that they had some pretty good hills. I might consider this race at some point in the future, but hills always scare this flatlander.

I also heard that people were coming out of the swim covered in a brownish green sludge. :eek: It wasn't wetsuit legal apparently.

....

I heard consistent rolling hills. That's pretty consistent with what I know of the area.

Yeah, green sludge.....the Ohio River....yuck! I wouldn't swim in it unless I HAD to. But I come out of any open water swim around here with a green brownish sludge. Yeah, don't wear anything white if you want it stay white.

I asked this one lady (this was her third) how she liked the swim and she said that she loved it. Now that could have been simply because 2 miles of it was downstream with strong downstream currents.

[makbike]

I would say, having grown up in the area, that the course was hilly. Yes, there are rollers in this area but some of the roads used are just plan hilly. The IM was the talk at the club ride this evening and everyone agreed the course was, you guessed it . . . hilly.

I would never, never, never swim in the OHIO RIVER!

[Pika]

Interesting topic - It doesn't seem right that there would be official times after 17 hrs regardless of the swim condition- I mean 17 hrs counting from when you actually started. That would keep it fair.
I am certainly no expert as I just watched my first IM- but as we were waiting/hoping for Wahine to pass the 4KM to finish mark - a guy ran by.. really running fast- I expect he would have been looking at a 10.30 hr finish or so- a girl ran along and gave him a gel and said if he picked it up he could make his goal. Another spectator said that was cheating, the girl who gave the gel came back and said quite hautily that "they" had lost his stuff and he hadn't had any gel- the other girl said they always have extras for people and unless she was willing to stand there and give everyone who wanted one a gel - it was cheating. I don't think he was in line for a prize as the frontrunners had passed quite a while before- maybe an agegroup prize??? I dunno- it didn't seem like a big deal to me but I understand rules are rules and one should abide by them- being a total newbie spectator I didn't know that was against the rules- makes sense- I just didn't know.
hopefully next time- that couple will follow them.

[crazycanuck]

THe gent who accepted the gel could have been penalized for accepting outside assitance. That's not fair. Same goes for drafting, blocking & listening to IPODS on the bike/run. THe Tech officials will catch you one day!!! (hopefully it won't be me catching them.grrrr...)

I know for a fact that here in WA at all IM's & HIM's there's aid stations oh so close to eachother with coke, soup, water whatever..

As our coach tells all the folks training with her for any event.. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail..

C

[Running Mommy]

Yeah Pika- What CC said. No outside assistance. Sometimes it seems a bit overboard. One year my friend got a penalty for handing off his sunglasses to his wife on the run. But hey rules are rules. The only people you can accept assistance from are official volunteers. At IMAZ this year I had the keys to the car in my bento on the bike since I had driven to the race site solo. At the mount line I saw my husband and started to hand him the keys, but then I realized what I was doing and pulled my hand back. I didn't want to start my day like that.
And yes, there are PLENTY of things on the course. An aid station every mile on the run that has, gatorade, water, flat coke, chicken broth, grapes, bananas, orange slices, power bars, gels, pretzels, and cookies... Ummm I think that is ENOUGH!! It's like a freaking BUFFET every mile!
That girl was just being obnoxious. Too bad I wasn't there to bring her back to reality. I like it when I'm spectating at a race and someone who is uninformed such as that woman say "I know XXXXX. My brother (sister, mom, dad, spouse, sig other etc) does Ironman" with that haughty look about them. Then I inform them that I do IM as well. Tends to knock em back to reality. :p
Yes there are rules. Some seem silly or overboard, but they are there to level the playing field. And you never know who is out there gunning for a Kona slot. I think those spots are more coveted than WINNING the thing! Tho if you win, you get a slot as well as some $$...

[KSH]

OK, so I read reading a RR on BT today from IMKY this year... and this gal came in at 18 hours... and she GOT A MEDAL??? WTH?

Seriously. I commend her for finishing and not taking the SAG wagon. But they took her timing chip off her on the course and she came in at 1:00 AM. She said when she crossed the finish line she got her medal.

That I don't agree with.

[Running Mommy]

Thank YOU! That is what I'm saying... It just seems like IM is getting "watered down" so to speak. Yes I'm slow. I'm a full value athlete. BUT I never go into a race with a cut off that I'm not sure I could make.
There are certain marathons that I don't run because they have a 6 hour time cut off, and I know I'd be pushing it.
Just like I would never run the Boston marathon on a charity slot. I respect that race too much. I know I'll NEVER be fast enough to qualify, so I respect those who do even more. That race is about qualifying to get in, and the work that runners put into qualifying- or BQing in marathon speak.
And as with what happened in April, I pulled myself off the course because I knew I wouldn't make it in time.
I guess the popularity of IM has made it so that it's on a lot of peoples "to do once before I die list" and the rules are just silly details. "heck, I did the distance, so I'm an Ironman. No matter that I took an hour longer than I was suppose to, they still gave me a medal"...
NO, sorry, you are NOT.
And I blame the race organization for this. THEY should not be giving out medals like that. It smacks those of us who go out there and bust our butts to make it in under 17 in the face. I'm not saying that this person didn't give it their all. But EIGHTEEN hours??!! I'll have to read their RR.

Ok let me edit this to say I just went and read that RR. The lady had a MRSA infection in her hoo haa region (or so it sounded) and raced anyway?? That IMO is just plain DUMB! MRSA can kill you. To go out and do an IM and compromise your system even more?? Yeah I guess you could say she was determined, but I would have pulled the plug. Sometimes Shat happens and you have to DNS. Sucks, but it's life...
And I guess I say kudos for having the moxie to finish, but I stand by my contention that she should not have been given a medal.
I feel for her, really I do. But I know FULL WELL what it feels like to walk past the finishline, hearing Mike Reilly call the kids in, seeing the finishers milling around with their medals, and have to hand in your chip and walk away after 15 hours of fighting the wind, and illness, etc... Yes, sometimes life just SUCKS. But that is what makes us who we are. How we handle our disappointments as well as our triumphs.

[KSH]

Thank YOU! That is what I'm saying... It just seems like IM is getting "watered down" so to speak. Yes I'm slow. I'm a full value athlete. BUT I never go into a race with a cut off that I'm not sure I could make.
There are certain marathons that I don't run because they have a 6 hour time cut off, and I know I'd be pushing it.
Just like I would never run the Boston marathon on a charity slot. I respect that race too much. I know I'll NEVER be fast enough to qualify, so I respect those who do even more. That race is about qualifying to get in, and the work that runners put into qualifying- or BQing in marathon speak.
And as with what happened in April, I pulled myself off the course because I knew I wouldn't make it in time.
I guess the popularity of IM has made it so that it's on a lot of peoples "to do once before I die list" and the rules are just silly details. "heck, I did the distance, so I'm an Ironman. No matter that I took an hour longer than I was suppose to, they still gave me a medal"...
NO, sorry, you are NOT.
And I blame the race organization for this. THEY should not be giving out medals like that. It smacks those of us who go out there and bust our butts to make it in under 17 in the face. I'm not saying that this person didn't give it their all. But EIGHTEEN hours??!! I'll have to read their RR.

Well, this lady did give it her all. But she came in past the cut off (the generous one at that because of the TT start)... and got a medal. That's BS in my book.

If you didn't make it 17 hours, you don't get the medal or the finishers T-Shirt.

BTW- is it normal for you have to buy your finishers T-shirt? They had to buy it for Ketucky.

[Starfish]

I have never done a triathlon. I have little dreams about someday, somehow, doing an IM. I suppose I might be one of those people for whom it is a maybe-once-before-I-die kind of thing rather than a love of triathlons, since I have never done one yet! :rolleyes:

But, I think the organizers should respect their own stated time limits for the integrity of the event.

I know that if I am EVER to pull off an IM finish someday, I will have to substantially improve my athleticism and speed, not just my endurance. I am stubborn enough to believe (although you Ironpeople out there might shake your heads at my silliness) that given enough sheer TIME and training hours, I could somehow FINISH the distance if there was no time limit.

But, given that my whole Shasta ride took longer than Wahine's entire IM, I know that as I am now, I am NO WHERE NEAR the fast athlete I would have to be to do the 17 hour limit.

So, to me, the time limit represents something much more amazing than just finishing (although I don't mean to downplay finishing the distance...inasmuch as I have never done it, maybe I am naive to think I could do the distance no matter how long I had).

[Running Mommy]

K- Yeah you usually get a finishers t shirt in one of those drawstring bags, along with the coveted hat that says "Finsher 2007" Or 08,09...
BUT the next morning is when they roll out all the finishers swag at the banquet. IM knows that we like to part with our $$ when it comes to IM branded gear, so they have seized the opportunity. But Lou is a WTC race, not a NA sports race- so who knows?? I did like the horseshoe medal tho. That was cool. I'll admit, I'm a medal ***** :D I do races JUST because they have cool finishers medals (disney world mary for instance)... Yeah, I can be shallow like that... :p

Star- the only thing that would stop you from doing an IM with little training, but as many hours as it takes you to complete it IMO would be the swim. You really have to be conditioned to do 2.4 miles in the water.
But as long as you can do a century, you could walk the 26.2 miles afterward. Esp. with the open buffet every mile.
BUT to do it in under 17 hours DOES require training, and lots of it.
And yeah, it would HURT.
I think of all the races I've done over the years the IM is the one race that you can't fake. You either put in the training and finish, or you don't. It's that simple.

[Starfish]

Star- the only thing that would stop you from doing an IM with little training, but as many hours as it takes you to complete it IMO would be the swim. You really have to be conditioned to do 2.4 miles in the water. But as long as you can do a century, you could walk the 26.2 miles afterward. Esp. with the open buffet every mile.

I totally believe you. Actually, I didn't mean doing it with little training. I meant training pretty long and hard...but for endurance, rather than any speed. I used to be a competitive swimmer, so I believe I could do that distance with proper training and OWS coaching. I know I can do the bike distance. I'm guessing I could walk the whole way (not happily, not without pain, probably not without injury). I don't mean this is a foregone conclusion...just that I think I could endurance train enough to somehow struggle through the distance, if everything went just right, someday.

But, all this to make my point: once you add in the time limit...Oh My Gosh...I am not at all sure I could EVER do it, despite the right training program. So, I definitely agree with you...the time limit MEANS SOMETHING!

[KSH]

I totally believe you. Actually, I didn't mean doing it with little training. I meant training pretty long and hard...but for endurance, rather than any speed. I used to be a competitive swimmer, so I believe I could do that distance with proper training and OWS coaching. I know I can do the bike distance. I'm guessing I could walk the whole way (not happily, not without pain, probably not without injury). I don't mean this is a foregone conclusion...just that I think I could endurance train enough to somehow struggle through the distance, if everything went just right, someday.

But, all this to make my point: once you add in the time limit...Oh My Gosh...I am not at all sure I could EVER do it, despite the right training program. So, I definitely agree with you...the time limit MEANS SOMETHING!

Well, I'll all about the endurance and not speed. I have come to the realization that I'll never be fast on the bike and run. Fine. Then I need to be consistent and even and keep going. I can do that.

The time limit does mean something and it should mean becoming and Ironman or not... and the difference between getting a finishers medal or not. We aren't in Pre-K, everyone doesn't need a medal to feel good about themselves.

I realized this morning that some people race an IM to reach a certain time goal... I will be racing against the clock... counting down every minute to ensure that I make it in under 17 hours. Everytime I stop moving is more more minute I add to not finishing. So, even though I won't be placing in my AG, I have to keep moving no matter what.

[Running Mommy]

"I realized this morning that some people race an IM to reach a certain time goal... I will be racing against the clock... counting down every minute to ensure that I make it in under 17 hours. Everytime I stop moving is more more minute I add to not finishing. So, even though I won't be placing in my AG, I have to keep moving no matter what."

Yep! I do the SAME THING! Some people have planned "stops" on the bike, but I don't. I only stop if I absolutely need something- or to go potty. I figure coasting at 10 mph while I fish something out of my bento, or refill a bottle is still faster than stopping. And when I'm on the run if I must walk, then I tell myself to walk with purpose. This year I had someone come by me and say "MAN! You have a fast walk pace!"... Yeah, it's not suppose to be a stroll.
Yes, I'm slow and prolly always will be. I just don't think thick girls are mean't to be fast. At least not THIS thick girl. I've lost 13 lbs in the last five weeks, and while I'm looking better, I'm still thick. Just a smaller version of a stump...
But I do have time goals, and I do try to get faster. I'm starting to see time gains in my riding. Last year I was riding between 15-16 mph average, now I'm at 16-17 mph. Hopefully as the weight disappears the speed will re-appear. But I have no dillusions of pulling off a 5 hour bike split at IMAZ 08.
But dang it if I'm not gonna try.
You know, I think that's the difference between people who "do" an Ironman, and people who ARE (because it's in their dna) an Ironman. An Ironman goes out there and does their very best for that given day. They leave it out on the course.
They respect the race for what it is. And to them, it's not just a fad...

[alpinerabbit]

erm..... amen?

:D

[KSH]

Yep! I do the SAME THING! Some people have planned "stops" on the bike, but I don't. I only stop if I absolutely need something- or to go potty. I figure coasting at 10 mph while I fish something out of my bento, or refill a bottle is still faster than stopping. And when I'm on the run if I must walk, then I tell myself to walk with purpose. This year I had someone come by me and say "MAN! You have a fast walk pace!"... Yeah, it's not suppose to be a stroll.

Yes, I'm slow and prolly always will be. I just don't think thick girls are mean't to be fast. At least not THIS thick girl. I've lost 13 lbs in the last five weeks, and while I'm looking better, I'm still thick. Just a smaller version of a stump...

But I do have time goals, and I do try to get faster. I'm starting to see time gains in my riding. Last year I was riding between 15-16 mph average, now I'm at 16-17 mph. Hopefully as the weight disappears the speed will re-appear. But I have no dillusions of pulling off a 5 hour bike split at IMAZ 08.
But dang it if I'm not gonna try.

You know, I think that's the difference between people who "do" an Ironman, and people who ARE (because it's in their dna) an Ironman. An Ironman goes out there and does their very best for that given day. They leave it out on the course.

They respect the race for what it is. And to them, it's not just a fad...

Well, I do see myself having to get off the bike 2 or 3 times on the course. Quickly, but I will need some rest stops. Honestly, I don't think my back/butt/neck could hold up 112 miles without getting off and stretching. But, I'll have to be quick because 10 minutes too long might mean me not finishing in 17 hours.

You have lost 13 pounds... AWESOME! Congrats!

A 16-17 average is good! And if you can ride 112 miles in training at that pace you can do it on the course too.

I hear ya about respecting the race. I found this post on my other forum to a thread about who signed up for IMKY 08:


I watched the race Sunday and stuck around Monday to register. It looked like an absolute blast. This will be my first IM attempt. To be honest, I've never swam and I start swim lessons next Tuesday. I'm going to signup for a 1/2 IM next July. I've never done a tri as I just started biking this year. There was just way too much energy down there though for me not to give it a shot! See you there!


OK, so this person who has NEVER swam, NEVER done a tri... and who just started biking THIS year... signed up for an IM.

What the heck is this guy thinking? I think he just got caught up in the moment and went with it. But I don't think he respects the distance. It's not as easy as he may have thought it looked.

I guess I also get kind of irked when people don't respect doing tri's in general and show this through haphazard training. You know the ones... "OH! I'm going to do a tri"... but yet they don't train for it. There is a journey to race day. Being a triathlete isn't just racing... it's training too. People who don't think that they need to train... well it kind of disrespects the sport.

[Running Mommy]

Your preaching to the choir girl, preaching to the choir!!

I wrote an email to the guys at Ironmantalk to get their take on it. Hopefully they talk about it in a future podcast.

I guess it's like everything, once it gains popularity it gets watered down.
Thats another reason why the water noodle thing at the danskin races bugs me so much. I'm all for encouraging people to get into the sport. I tend to think of myself as an ambasador. BUT you need to go about it right and do the neccesary training before you even think about plunking down your $$ for a race. Be ready to race. It's a TRIATHLON- a SWIM, BIKE, and RUN.. Done back to back... You need to have those athletic skills to be able to do one.

When I decided I wanted to get into triathlon the first thing I did was sign up for swim lessons at the Y. It wasn't until I could swim 30 laps that I decided I was ready to sign on the dotted line. Am I saying that you need to be perfectly trained and ready to take your AG?? NO. I'm saying you should be able to complete the distances in training, with no real problems, before you toe the line.
And there is NO reason to start with an IM. I know plenty who do. Some actually do pretty good coming out of the gate like that. But I think it's a lot to ask of your body.
I must say that my husband is doing IM next year with very few races under his belt. I wasn't happy about that. But I also know his riding and running base is where it needs to be. So I'm working on the swim componet with him.
I do give him a hard time, and give him the crossways look all the time. I've told him over and over that I don't think he respects the distance. I think sometimes that he thinks "well if Denise can do it. I can".... But Denise has her butt out there training like a mad woman 6 days a week. They forget about that. Oh- and yeah I hear from the sidelines ALL THE TIME "look at her honey. If she can do it. So can you. She's not skinny." :mad:
I just want to clock the people that I hear say that. BUT yes, most people CAN do what I do. They just have to put the time and effort into it. I don't have any special talents that only *I* posses. No I have the drive. And that's all you need.

[divingbiker]

There is a journey to race day. Being a triathlete isn't just racing... it's training too. People who don't think that they need to train... well it kind of disrespects the sport.

Though it doesn't even compare to what you ladies do, this is exactly why I didn't do the Irongirl sprint tri this year. I knew I could do the swim and the bike, and I could walk the run, and I would have finished with a slow time. But I hadn't trained and I thought that it was disrespectful to those who did to just show up and go through the motions.

[crazycanuck]

Ummm Last time I checked it was quite a bit of $$$ to enter an IM..You'd think that if you paid that much, you'd train hard in order to finish in the time allotted.

DOn't people know the time limit...

c

[KSH]

Though it doesn't even compare to what you ladies do, this is exactly why I didn't do the Irongirl sprint tri this year. I knew I could do the swim and the bike, and I could walk the run, and I would have finished with a slow time. But I hadn't trained and I thought that it was disrespectful to those who did to just show up and go through the motions.

With that said, I find it perfectly respectable to walk the run if you are the type who just can't run. :)

But it sounds like you made a sound decision. If you aren't trained and ready it's best not to race.

[silver]

"You know, I think that's the difference between people who "do" an Ironman, and people who ARE (because it's in their dna) an Ironman. An Ironman goes out there and does their very best for that given day. They leave it out on the course.
They respect the race for what it is. And to them, it's not just a fad...

I completely agree with you gals. I do not think that any 17 hour finisher should receive a medal or be considered an Ironman.

I've completed 7 marathons and they were hard, so I have a HUGE respect for you ladies who are Ironmen. And I do not think that anything should water down the distinction.

But I guess I want to say that I think that this was a little hitch in the process here, caused by trying to adapt to the water/current situation. I looked at the results and only 3 people are listed as having a time greater than 17:00. These people know the rules and they know that they are not ironmen. We know they are not. I don't think that it sets a precedent for watering down the Ironman overall.

I've heard this debate to some degree on the marathon side. People taking 8:00 hours to complete a marathon. Did they run a marathon? Do you have to run every step to run a marathon? My fastest marathon was 4:44 and slowest was 5:18. Do I qualify as a marathoner? Would you run the Boston Marathon without qualifying? (just throwing out questions that are raised) There are people who cut marathon courses. But marathons do not have a governing body that was set forth a time limit like the Ironman.

I hope this comment doesnt' offend anyone.....I completely respect the distance and the accomplishment and the rules set forth for it (time limit).

[Starfish]

Though it doesn't even compare to what you ladies do, this is exactly why I didn't do the Irongirl sprint tri this year. I knew I could do the swim and the bike, and I could walk the run, and I would have finished with a slow time. But I hadn't trained and I thought that it was disrespectful to those who did to just show up and go through the motions.

OK...I am being brave and stepping in with a little different viewpoint, maybe. I DO really respect you marathoners, ironmen, and other athletes participating in this thread. I hope from my other discussions across TE you can tell that. So, I'm respectfully wondering:

I guess I have to ask exactly how, at this sprint distance, your showing up less than really well trained would have disrespected the other participants?

It doesn't sound like you would have had to use SAG-type support resources, or otherwise been a burden on race organizers or other participants.

Perhaps it depends on what you mean, really, by just going through the motions...and why you were drawn to doing it in the first place. Would it have been wrong to just go out and do it for fun, rather than to leave every ounce of yourself out on the course?

What does a person's motivation have to be in order to be considered respectful? For instance, earlier this year, I did a metric century. I did it as a training ride, to test out some things I wanted to use later in the season for my goal event. I didn't have any intention of leaving it all out on the course, or taking it particularly seriously. I knew I wouldn't need SAG or otherwise burden the official ride. I was doing it for my own purposes. I don't feel I was disrespectful to the folks out there who had made that metric or the whole century their big deal for the year.

Please don't misunderstand. I have enormous respect for motivated, trained, successful endurance athletes. I have extreme respect for an Ironman official finisher under 17 hours (as long as that person also has a respect-worthy character, etc.). I don't think people should do events expecting a medal if they don't finish in the time. I don't think people are wise to do difficult events untrained, and put the organization under the strain of dealing with their injuries or whatever.

But, I just kind of wonder what, for instance, would make it wrong or disrespectful for someone to train up to walking a marathon if that was their intended goal and they weren't trying to pretend they ran the whole thing, etc. I just read a book called Marathoning For Mortals by Mr. Bingham which includes a training plan specifically for walking a marathon.

What do a person's goals and motivations have to be in order to be viewed as good enough for you guys, is, I guess, my question?

[alpinerabbit]

Forgive me for chiming in late again - the cutoff for IMCH, by the way, is 23.00 (16 hours)...

:eek:

[crazycanuck]

Starfish-it's about finishing before the cut off time..not after.

C

[divingbiker]

I guess I have to ask exactly how, at this sprint distance, your showing up less than really well trained would have disrespected the other participants?

Well, for me, I knew a couple of people who had worked very hard for over six months to train for it. I hadn't done a thing except "run" and swim once and do my normal biking. I know that a sprint doesn't compare to a HIM or IM, but it still didn't feel right to me to not train at all. Maybe it's because I've never participated in any group sports or competitions, so I'm not comfortable just showing up and doing poorly while others have taken it seriously.

[HillSlugger]

Thats another reason why the water noodle thing at the danskin races bugs me so much.

???:confused:


When I decided I wanted to get into triathlon the first thing I did was sign up for swim lessons at the Y. It wasn't until I could swim 30 laps that I decided I was ready to sign on the dotted line.
I signed up first, and then started swimming lessons a few months later. For me, I needed to sign up first, to make it real and to set that stake in the ground: "You need to be ready for THIS event on THIS date" (I'm not so good with vague goals). The first tri I signed up for was Iron Girl; when I realized how poor a swimmer I was I began having second thoughts and signed up for the shorter tri. For me, I see needing to take small steps towards a longer triathlon: short sprint, longer sprint, olympic, etc. That's just me and my overly logical way of going about life. I'm sure some people need a big kick in the @ss to get started and an HIM or IM might be what's right for them. Hopefully the do respect the distance (or learn to respect the distance), otherwise they could get hurt and bring others down with them.

[KSH]

But I guess I want to say that I think that this was a little hitch in the process here, caused by trying to adapt to the water/current situation. I looked at the results and only 3 people are listed as having a time greater than 17:00. These people know the rules and they know that they are not ironmen. We know they are not. I don't think that it sets a precedent for watering down the Ironman overall.



Silver, the cut off at IMKY was 12:30 ish... so about 17:30 hours due to the TT swim start. Which is fine... although they needed to track WHO came in at or under 17 hours... but whatever.... so some people did indeed race longers than 17 hours and get a medal.

My story was in reference to a lady... I read her race report on another site... and she was on the run course and they said she wasn't going to make the 17:30 cut off... so they took her timing chip.

She still finished the course and came in at 18:00... and she still got a medal. Now, that's just not right.

The organizers of the race aren't there to make everyone who is out there feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves. If you didn't make it in under 17:30 (for IMKY) then you didn't deserve a medal.

[KSH]

Starfish-it's about finishing before the cut off time..not after.

C

Exactly.

Hey, I can say I race for fun. I'm not out there winning anything, so why not make it fun? I talk to my fellow racers, cheer them on, smile, etc.

Do I pass out at the finish line because I left it all on the course... nope... and so what?

I trained for it... I got out there and did it... no one had to support me on the course because I wasn't conditioned.. and that's all that matters.

Don't analyze it too much. If you are out there doing it and have trained for it... then you are all good in anyone's book!

[Starfish]

Thanks, everyone.

I do agree that the time limit is important.

I also do get it that training/competing is a personal journey.

I have a harder time understanding the issues around respect/disrespect to other competitors at the easier distances, especially.

I have a hard time understanding what is wrong with walking a marathon if that is the goal you start out with, and you aren't trying to pretend to do or be something you're not.

[Wahine]

Wow. Did this ever turn into an interesting thread.

So, I'm not sure what I want to say except that I believe in th cut-off. If you're over, no medal.

As for respecting the distance. There will always be people that sign up for events that haven't a clue what the event entails. Some of them will go out and finish and some of them will get spanked. None of that matters to me. If you have the guts to sign up, that is in and off itself an accomplishment. If you go out ill prepared, you'll find out soon enough and if you didn't respect a race before you got to find out how difficult it was first hand...you will after.

There is nothing wrong with coming up with a race strategy and sticking to it. If it involves walking, walk. Just get the job done, race your race and don't worry about anybody else.

[Starfish]

Wow. Did this ever turn into an interesting thread.


See what happens when you go off to compete, and leave us to our own devices, Yoda? ;) :p

[rocknrollgirl]

Well,
I am late coming in to this thread. Not sure how I missed it. Very interesting discussion. My 2 cents:

1. Miss the cutoff, no medal. RM, if I were you I would be bitter, and pissed. I am silly, but I would not wear the t-shirt unless I finished properly. Just me.

2. I do not think entering a race that you are not prepared for is disrespectful to the other racers. Foolish perhaps, but not disrespectful.

I have seen it at Xterra this summer. People see the 13 or 14 miles on the bike and say...hey...that is easy, I can do that. Not thinking that it will actually be technical, single track racing.

Oh well, they find out soon enough. If they are lacking respect of some sort, they learn it quickly enough. The hard way. I would imagine lots of folks learn those lessons at HIM and IM races all the time.


RACE ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kimmyt]

I guess I'll butt in here too, even though I haven't read the whole thing (just bits here and there).

And have to say, I feel that this discussion is pretty interesting, and probably deserves its own thread.

Anyway, I would be pissed too, about the unofficial Ironmen. If it were me I wouldn't accept the medal. Maybe I would. Maybe I would keep it around, kind of as a motivator. I certainly wouldn't tell people I finished an Ironman. I wouldn't have, after all.

And as for disrespecting other athletes by not being prepared enough? Well, perhaps in a race that is a more serious distance. But a sprint. Now, i'm certainly not saying a sprint is easy. It's not, I did 2 this year. But there are a whole variety of people competing in a sprint, from those who are really racing, and putting up competitive times, to those who are just doing it for a lark, to those who have trained and trained just to finish.

Many times, sprint events are very beginner-friendly, so why would you worry that you're disrespecting the training of other athletes? I mean, most of those athletes are probably in your shoes, signed up, maybe didn't train enough but are hoping to do well.

A friend of mine signed up for my first tri with me. She got on the bike maybe 3 times before the race, and she doesn't ride a bike. Her bike was an old 10spd someone had bought for her, the tires blew out every time she rode it. She had no idea how to care for her bike, she only wore a helmet because we told her she needed to get one. She didn't swim at all before the race. She was a lifeguard in h.s., about 10 years ago. She ran maybe once or twice.

I wanted to beat her, because I was taking my training seriously and she was just doing it for fun. I really really wanted to beat her. But guess what? She smoked me, in and out of the water. She beat me out of the water by about 6 minutes, managed to come within 1mph of me on the bike (me with my fancy bike and clipless pedals and her with her dodgy old bike), and then proceeded to fly by me on the run and finish a good 2 minutes ahead of me.

Was that disrespectful of her to me? Heck no, she had a good race. It burned me like hell, but you know what? I'm used to getting smoked by people and can deal with someone jumping off the couch and beating me in a race.

When I did those two races, there were plenty of people there that probably hadn't put in the training I had. They didn't have fancy bikes, they were very slow swimmers, but I didn't hold that against them. They were there like I was to have fun and do their best to beat their personal goals. They weren't being disrespectful to me by being there at all. Nor, I hope, was I being disrespectful to the people that finished on the podium and flew by me at 21mph on the bike. There's all sorts of levels.

If you wait until you're 'good enough' you just might never compete, because there will always be someone better than you.


K.

[Running Mommy]

I tell the kids in my adopt an IM talks this..

There will ALWAYS be someone faster than you, and always be someone slower. Don't sweat the details. Run your race, and do YOUR best, for whatever that is on that day.
But don't let the thought that you aren't fast enough keep you from trying something that you just may love!

Personally I just shrug off those that show up with no real training under their belts. I figure they will learn. Look at Lance last year in the NYC marathon. Yeah he finished in under 3, but just barely, and not without a lot of pain. I think it was his ego alone that got him through that race. He had pacers, and fans along the entire course. But even with his athletic (ya think?) background I knew what was going to happen after he said his longest run was like 2 hours. I want to say 15 miles or something? I was like "ut oh... this is gonna be a train wreck"... And I was there, so I can tell you- he was in PAIN at the end. Muscle memory can only get you so far.
But they don't really bug me. As long as they take the time to read the rules.
If your not gonna take the time to train, at least take the time to read the rules!! ;)