cadence

[ginny]

hi - I'm really quite a newbe. I am a distance runner though, and I have this pace at which I can run (quite literally) all day. So, I was just reading about cadence. I think I probably have a pretty slow cadence on the bike (when I run, I have a pretty slow turn over, but a H U G E stride - can't help it, it's just my conformation). Anyway, this article I was reading said to aim for 88-92 rpm for a good cadence. Apart from a computer, how would I figure that out? Also, I have a bianchi eros donna with the cassette that came with the bike, are there recommendations for a different cassette for riding in the mountains (I ride mainly in the Rockys)? Thanks!

[NJBikeGal]

Count! :p Count the rotations of one leg in a minute and that is your cadence. Granted, there are a ton of other factors: wheel size, gear ratio, etc. But, this is a simple way to figure it out.

Everyone's cadence will differ. A men's pro racer may have a cadence between 90 and 110/120, a novice rider more like 70-80. What you want to focus on is not mashing your pedals. You shouldn't have to exert tremendous amounts of force to get the pedals to move...that's mashing (I used to do this A LOT!). Developing a higher rate of cadence takes some work, but you'll get it! :)

As far as a cassette...(I only speak Shimano, not Campy...and I don't know what you have on there now)...I would expect that you would want at least a 25, if not a 27 rear cassette for climbing mountains.

[Torrilin]

If you don't have musical training (yay for hours of tempo drill), a bike computer is probably the best tool for the job.

You can approximate cadence by counting the number of pedal strokes you make in a defined time period. This doesn't work so well if you've got poor short term memory tho. And your cadence will vary some over a ride, so you'd need many samples to get a good estimate.

[mixie]

Im a total newb too, but this has helped me some. My gym has stationary bikes with RPM counters. Im guessing thats the same as cadence? Anyway, I go to the gym to run but I'll hop on the stationary cycle to warm up for a few minutes and focus on keepin gthe RPM at or above 90. Then I try to "memorize" how that feels. Sorta like a rythym, and tell my legs "ok legs, this is it!" When aI get on my bike I have more of a feel for how my cadence is. Also, I dont know if you are clipless yet, but that really helped keeping the cadence up w/o slipping off the pedals. For me anyway.

[indysteel]

hi - I'm really quite a newbe. I am a distance runner though, and I have this pace at which I can run (quite literally) all day. So, I was just reading about cadence. I think I probably have a pretty slow cadence on the bike (when I run, I have a pretty slow turn over, but a H U G E stride - can't help it, it's just my conformation). Anyway, this article I was reading said to aim for 88-92 rpm for a good cadence. Apart from a computer, how would I figure that out? Also, I have a bianchi eros donna with the cassette that came with the bike, are there recommendations for a different cassette for riding in the mountains (I ride mainly in the Rockys)? Thanks!

Ginny, I generally agree with the 88-92 rpm as the "ideal" cadence, although I think that range is a bit narrow. I, myself, usually spin between 90-100. I would further state that a high cadence assumes flat terrain. When climbing, I would aim to pedal about 75% of your normal cadence. I, personally, liked having a computer that measured cadence when I first started, but I don't pay any attention to it now. You eventually develop a good feel for it. Keep in mind, in figuring out what works for you, that finding a good cadence is really about efficiency. Spin too fast and you blow your lungs; spin to slow and you blow out your knees. Spin just right and your lungs and legs equally share the burden, allowing you to go faster and longer.

As for your cassette, I would suggest that you may already have the gears you need for climbing since the bike comes with a triple crank. I would take it on some climbs to at least see before buying another cassette. Admittedly, I've never done a long, Rocky Mountain type climb before but the hills we have in Indiana are short and, often, very steep. The 12-25 cassette on my Eros Donna provides small enough gears to climb grades in the 20% range.

What year Eros Donna do you have? It appears from Bianchi's website that the 2007 model comes with a 13-26 10-speed cassette (I think last year's model was a 9-speed cassete, but I don't remember the spread since I changed my bike from a 9 to a 10-speed and got a new cassette in the process). In any event, a 13-26 cassette, along with the triple, will give you some pretty small gears that, IMO, will likely be more than enough for even the steepest of climbs. I think Campy makes a 12-27 rear cassette, but that might also require changes to your chain and rear derailleur. Your LBS should be able to determine that pretty easily.

[Look]

Great post indysteel! Truly helpful.

I still depend on my cadence monitor and find that I'm not always accurate at guessing my cadence. And I certainly don't attain 75% going uphill!
I'm heartened to know that it will improve because I certainly have been working on it !

[rij73]

You can buy a cheap metronome for music and carry it beeping away in your jersey pocket. Something like a Qwik Time QT-5. That's what I do. It's like having a coach! I am trying to develop a steady cadence. Working on 84 right now. I pedal slower on the climbs, but as it starts to level out, I get back in sync with the metronome. People must wonder why my bike makes a strange beeping sound! :D

[ginny]

Oooo good metronome idea... I already have one of those! Thanks for the replies everyone! I have the 2006 Bianchi... campy deraileur and stuff (three cranks in front dunno how many on the cassette on back). I should go look at the specs again... duh! Anyway, thanks! I 'll stick the metronome in my pocket next time I ride - I'm perfectly okay with ticking away on my ride :)

[ginny]

okay, I looked at the specs, here is the cassette info:
Cassette
Campagnolo, 13/26T 9spd

Translation? Am I good? I will say that climbing big hills was easier on my mtn bike, but I haven't had to walk up anything yet and I've been ambitious on the climbing thing so far...

[Starfish]

Oooo good metronome idea... I already have one of those! Thanks for the replies everyone! I have the 2006 Bianchi... campy deraileur and stuff (three cranks in front dunno how many on the cassette on back). I should go look at the specs again... duh! Anyway, thanks! I 'll stick the metronome in my pocket next time I ride - I'm perfectly okay with ticking away on my ride :)

I LOVE the metronome idea. I have a cadence feature on my cyclometer, but I love the idea of having the audio reference! I'm going to try that!

Depending on your weight, strength, etc, your triple up front and 26 in back should be fine. However, just for a different point of view, here's what I did:

I have a triple up front, and I had a 27 on the back. As a new rider, in a very hilly area, and overweight, I was seriously struggling with my rides, and it wasn't as much fun. My cyclist friends told me to just keep going, that whatever didn't kill me would make me stronger. Well, I did that for a couple years. Then I decided to heck with it, and got a mountain derailleur and a 32 cassette put on the back. Now I have a billion low gears and I just finished my first 10,000' century this weekend. Even Arnie Baker says why not go for a bunch of low gears if you are doing sustained climbing all the time. Sometimes I climb 20 miles at a time without any level ground, and my knee never hurts!

I hope and plan that by next year, I will have lost some weight and gained more strength...and I might put the old cassette back on. But, I know that having these granny gears have helped me get out for a lot longer, on a lot more difficult rides. And that, in turn, has motivated me to lose weight and train harder than I ever felt when I was struggling all the time with climbing.

[indysteel]

Great post indysteel! Truly helpful.

I still depend on my cadence monitor and find that I'm not always accurate at guessing my cadence. And I certainly don't attain 75% going uphill!
I'm heartened to know that it will improve because I certainly have been working on it !

Look, thanks.....

As for attaining 75% going uphill: I often hit hills too fast, picking too small a gear for them and then blowing up my lungs in the process. When I try to slow my cadence down a bit by picking a gear that allows me to pedal at 75%of my normal cadence (or about 67 rpm), I do better. Of course, on really steep climbs, I don't worry about my cadence. I'm too busy trying not to throw up/fall over. BTW, I read about the 75% thing in one of my cycling books. It was suggested as nothing more than a guide for balancing the load between legs and lungs. It's just a guide though; climbing technique boils down to personal preference and ability.

Ginny, if you end up needing a larger cassette, by all means get it. As I said in my post, we don't have the long climbs in Indiana that you Rocky Mountain people are blessed with, so I have no personal experience what the gearing one needs to climb 10 or 20 miles at a time. That anyone can climb that long in any gear impresses me!

BTW, if you end up deciding to get a cyclometer with a cadence feature, Sigma makes some that are fairly reasonably priced and work well. While I don't necessarily think you need one, they are helpful in many ways.

[rij73]

Glad you ladies like the metronome idea. It just popped into my head when I first read about cadence. I'm a pianist and piano teacher, so a metronome is something I use many times a day already. Seemed like the perfect thing!

[Look]

Look, thanks.....

As for attaining 75% going uphill: I often hit hills too fast, picking too small a gear for them and then blowing up my lungs in the process. When I try to slow my cadence down a bit by picking a gear that allows me to pedal at 75%of my normal cadence (or about 67 rpm), I do better. Of course, on really steep climbs, I don't worry about my cadence. I'm too busy trying not to throw up/fall over. BTW, I read about the 75% thing in one of my cycling books. It was suggested as nothing more than a guide for balancing the load between legs and lungs. It's just a guide though; climbing technique boils down to personal preference and ability.


Thanks again indy! It is sooo helpful to see someone else describe my experience. It is frustrating to be cruising along over 20 mph, hit a hill and go down to 15, ok, then 9, then 7 then barely 5 mph and really straining to pedal. I always get the idea that if I'd just attacked a little more aggressively at a little earlier point in a slightly lower gear I would have had a much easier or at least faster climb. No worries though, there's always another hill just ahead to practice on!

[indigoiis]

From the Guide to Women's Cycling book by Susan Weaver... she says cadence is basically saying "one potato two potato three potato..." where one potato = one circle. That's been working for me.

And on hills, I've been doing the thing where I count ten pedal strokes and then go into an easier gear.

I have hills all over my neighborhood and can't get away from them, so I am getting plenty of practice. I often don't have to switch at ten - I can sometimes wait til 15 or 20. I have not yet run out of gear.

[Torrilin]

Some of hill climbing is just *doing* it. If you have to walk your bike, that's ok. Just keep trying. If you're not used to hills, your lungs and heart don't work as effectively on hills as they do on the flat. Generally you can bail out and walk up a hill at any time... and even walking the bike will help you get better at hills.

This does not mean I'd let someone take away my granny gears mind :). I do use them on hills, and I'm getting better at using them. It's a skill and it takes time to learn. And I won't learn if I don't practice.

I *do* attack hills aggressively early on. In one case, I have a small downhill right before a 5% grade. If I can use the downhill to get into a higher gear at my normal cadence, I have a wider range of low gears available for the big hill. Time the downshifts right so I'm maintaining a good cadence, and I go up further. It's taken me a fair bit of time to learn when to downshift to keep my cadence up so my legs don't hurt or turn to rubber on me.

[Kano]

attacking hills -- for me, that doesn't work well yet. It's a sure fire recipe for "blowing up" my legs -- and lungs -- as someone else mentioned. I've found that my sure-fire method of getting up, at least for now, is to gear down to granny, and yeah, I'm out of places to shift down to, right at the beginning of a hill, and not look too far ahead.

Now, this has been working, and what I'm calling a hill now is a lot more challenging than what I used to call hills! Those other ones, I'm finding I don't have to gear down like I used to, and maybe someday, I'll be looking at my current challenges with the same sort of strength I now have for my previous demon hills!

(went whizzing up one of those old demons the other day, and when DH caught up, I grinned at him and said, remember when I could barely make it up that one at 4mph? He said he remembered when I walked it. I never had quite THAT much trouble with it!)

Karen in Boise

[RolliePollie]

I never really gave much thought to cadence, but after reading this thread last night, I decided to pay a little more attention on today's ride. Looks like I spin at around 80. I guess I'm pretty content with that. It's what's comfortable for me at this point, and it will be interesting to see if it goes up with time. I was trying to count rpm's on hills too, but I was kind of all over the place. On one nice long steady hill, I was in my granny gear spinning at about 65-70. I definitely try to always gear down on hills...no mashing for me! Well, except when the hill is steep and I've run out of gears!

[indysteel]

Hills are still my nemesis, but I'm happy to report that I've gotten better at them. There are still a few, however, that make my palms sweat just thinking about them. And I've had to walk up more than one.

IMO, there's a big learning and fitness curve for them. I had been riding about three months when I did the Hilly Hundred last year. I thought I was going to die. I knew nothing about gearing and my heart rate went through the roof. I've learned a lot since then and have, thank goodness, gotten a better aerobic base. I've gotten better at the mind game, too. This hill will not beat me, this hill will not beat me!

I went on a hillly ride this June called JAWS and was lucky enough to have a very experienced friend with me. His input was invaluable. From his observations, I realized that I wasn't pacing myself very well. By hitting the hill in too easy a gear, I was basically spinning out and blowing up. Now I hit the base of the hill (these are hills, not rollers) a little more slowly in a slightly harder gear and try maintain a steady and controlled pace. He was chiding me the other day about not keeping up with him and I finally had to remind him that I was taking his advice and doing the hills at my pace.

[ginny]

So, today I focused on increasing my cadence (went on a pretty flat ride). I rode with five or six other friends, and tried to pace myself at how fast their legs were turning over. I didn't have any 'blow up' issues. Maybe getting used to spinning those legs faster on the flat will translate to the hills for me... Anyway, it was fun (forgot the metronome - there's always next time :o ), and it's fun to ride with a group and realize I don't truly suck! ;)

[MaineMaid]

Slightly off topic:D :D :D , but I couldn't resist. I'm a newbie that's been riding on the road since March. It was then I bumped into the topic of cadance. It coincided with me having to take the updated Advanced Cardiac Life Support test....every two years:eek: :eek: . Anyway, the cadance for chest compressions has changed to 100 compression per minute. The instructor advised us to sing,(to ourselves:) ), the BeeGees "Stayin' Alive"...a perfect 100bpm. ;) ;) . So now, when I'm working on my cadance that song gives me the auditory clues . ..."Ah-hah,ah-hah, stayin' alive, stayin' alive".
Jan in Maine

[indigoiis]

Yeah but if your legs were doing cadence to stayin' alive, you'd be really spinning like mad!

But I will remember that for chest compressions. Thanks!

[li10up]

indy - I've experienced the same thing you talked about. I'm still trying to find MY best way to make it up hills. Rollers - I attack. Hills - no way. I've done the hit them hard thing - I just blow up. I've done the spin like mad thing - I just blow up. I'm now working on just trying to keep a decent cadence and not downshift too quickly. The other riders in my group still blow by me but I am getting to the top more quickly than before and I usually pass them at the top as they slow way down trying to catch their breath and I just keep going at my speed. Hummm...maybe they are just waiting on me and not trying to catch their breath....no, I hear them breathing hard as I go by. ;) Which is hard to do...it's hard to hear them breathing over my gasping for breath.:(

[onimity]

Hi Ginny,

I don't do serious mountain riding (yet) but play around in a lot of the local canyons/foothills on a compact double/12-25 cassette. I can keep a pretty good cadence up on what I'd call a moderate sustained climb, 7 from Lyons to Allenspark for example. I find myself shifting up and down (though I spend a good deal of time in my lowest gear). Steeper sections hurt, though and sometimes I wish I had a triple. So I'd say you've got a good well-rounded setup.

[BTW, I'm training for a century and some people I (barely) know and some that I don't are getting together to ride one of the courses this Sat., 100K (pretty flat) starting in Longmont. You're more than welcome to come along if you'd like. If you want details PM me.]

All of the metronome comments make me laugh; I have a hard time with the metronome even when I'm playing piano. :eek: I do something similar, though, I always have a song in my head and I pedal along to that. Oddly, it's often something that I am learning on the piano, I've been trying to think through songs lately as I try to memorize them, and I find that I synchronize exactly with things like a car turn signal or pedal strokes. I'd say measure your cadence on something like a stationary bike (or just match another cyclist that seems to keep a consistent cadence) and then internalize the rhythm. The number isn't so important IMO.

Anne

[MaineMaid]

Indi;:o :o , I should have said that I'm probably doing HALF that cadance... maybe only counting the...um...left foot..:D :D :D I'm pretty slow at the moment...(as if you couldn't tell).

Jan in Maine

[indigoiis]

Or, if it were me, it would be like putting the 45 on 33!

Staaaaaaayyyyyin' huuuuhhhliiiiiivvvee...

[MaineMaid]

:D :) :) :) ; it's been 5 minutes since I read your reply and I'm still laughing...
Of course, I wonder how many posters here know what the heck a 45 or 33 thing is???/;)

Jan

[Starfish]

Of course, I wonder how many posters here know what the heck a 45 or 33 thing is???/;) Jan

Heck, there are lots of us plenty old enough to know! :)

[rij73]

Or, if it were me, it would be like putting the 45 on 33!

Staaaaaaayyyyyin' huuuuhhhliiiiiivvvee...

LOL! :D :D :D I'm actually really glad I'm old enough to get that. Hysterical!

[crazycanuck]

We have some 45's..but i've never danced like Stars on 45 though :rolleyes:

Now I have the bee gee's running through my head :(

I want a record player..
C